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Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 02:05 PM

Looking at the new FAQ and its calification that genetic heritage can get you bio-ware. Using Genetic heritage to give a sac symbont with k-10 and natural immunity(removes all ILL effects) to k-10(though with being constantly pumped with it might make that unneeded) How ever you need you body after taking one dose of k-10 to be >12 thus taking a fomori for their high body low relative cost and other use full qualities or just a troll is a must. This as a fomoir with 9 body cost a total of 0.2 essence and 100bp. The same can be pulled of for just 25BP the two qualitys needed. However a constant dose of k-10 cant be used and addiction might become an issue.

Now I'm just pointing out some thing that is missions legal and very very op I mine 120k and alvbity 24 bio for 10 bp that gives you +3ip and a plus to your physical stats that's huge some any argubility on top of augmented max. Now i'm thinking of cooking this guy up as a corp super soilder prime runner.

Edited for clarity and easy of reading also cut some chaff out.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Mar 23 2010, 03:24 PM

Would you please go back, slow down, and read your own post? Then we'll talk.

Posted by: DireRadiant Mar 23 2010, 04:08 PM

I can break chargen with the sample characters.

Posted by: Garou Mar 23 2010, 06:58 PM

Whaaaat?

I can´t really even read this. Hurts my brain.

Posted by: MatrixJargon Mar 23 2010, 07:06 PM

This

Munchkining isn't anything new kid. Just wait until you get in to making your own spells and equipment modifying.

Posted by: Draco18s Mar 23 2010, 07:09 PM

Like the Murdercycle.

Posted by: underaneonhalo Mar 23 2010, 07:21 PM

Right now http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1207301/Punctuation-hero-branded-vandal-inserting-apostrophes-street-signs.html is crying.

Posted by: Draco18s Mar 23 2010, 07:41 PM

I upset someone the other day correcting "wait until in tact" eg meaning, "wait until in contact" (referring to two objects coming into contact with each other; not using the exact words) and correcting her English. She got so upset because she was a professional writer, but who lets her grammar go lax when forum posting.

Posted by: MatrixJargon Mar 23 2010, 08:26 PM

On the internet, everybody is a writer.

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 09:09 PM

Apologies for my shitty post was posting in a lecture with a migraine... I'll get to edditing it.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 23 2010, 09:30 PM

I myself prefer using the Genetic Heritage for Rating three Synaptic Boosters 240k bioware for free? Thank you

Posted by: DWC Mar 23 2010, 09:32 PM

1) K-10 is neither a toxin nor a disease.
2) It is inevitable that you will fail the Edge test since you have to make one every time you redose (on an average of every 18.5 minutes), and then you get to be permanently berserk. This is assuming that you don't die from the crash, which your Natural Immunity can't protect you from since K-10 is a drug, not a toxin or disease.
3) Your addiction level will rapidly reach the burnout stage, which will put a serious cramp in your plans of magic, technomantic, or even cybered up supremacy.
4) Until inevitability catches up to you, and plunges you into a permanent berserk rage, YOU ARE ON K-10 ALL THE TIME! Life is a permanent psychotic episode, which will draw a lot of attention in a setting like Manhattan. Expect to be either abandoned or put down by your own co-conspirators before NYPD Inc drops a JDAM on all of you.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Mar 23 2010, 09:34 PM

It does raise a point that genetic heritage should perhaps be on the banned list for SRM, too much of it seems to fall upon what in normal games would come down to GM discretion or GM adjudication.

Posted by: Umidori Mar 23 2010, 09:43 PM

Woad cancels berserk though, and is cheap and easy to get.

Also, regarding the drug / toxin contrast, that's been a sloppy portion of the rules forever. If people allow Slab to be used offensively (and it should be allowed in my opinion), then this should work too.

Heck, that right there could be a solution to the addiction problem. You're constantly on Slab when not on runs, making your character the ultimate super soldier. So long as he has a Full Immersion lifestyle, he's just unconscious during downtime and whenever he wakes up he gets to destroy shit, which is what he wants anyway.

~Umidori

Posted by: Draco18s Mar 23 2010, 09:44 PM

I fail to see an issue here.

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 09:46 PM

1) all drugs can be treated as toxins
2) the edge test and deff the crash are ill effects
3) no additcion test on it all the time....
4)see above

Posted by: bernardo Mar 23 2010, 09:51 PM

Doesn't Genetic Heritage gives you a free genetic modification (those things in the Genetech chapter of Augmentation)?
Symbionts are biotech, right?

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 09:54 PM

Yeah but you can take biotech as gene ware so it auto grows back and such...

Posted by: bernardo Mar 23 2010, 10:09 PM

But...

So, yeah, it's up to the GM...

EDIT: I mean, the qualitie is only broken if the GM decides to break it...

Posted by: DWC Mar 23 2010, 10:12 PM

Even applying the optional rule concerning the use of drugs as toxins (which means that your body of 12 makes you completely immune to drugs with their paltry Power of 6) you still haven't gotten around the bad part of using a drug every 18.5 minutes. Severity of Addiction, and the path to burnout are entirely GM discretion, since they are negative qualities.

Oh, and a sac symbiont has an availability of 24, which is higher than Restricted Gear will let you take at character creation. Last but not least, chemical glands (and by extension, sac symbiotes) can only produce naturally occurring substances, whihc K-10 is clearly not.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 23 2010, 10:13 PM

Genetic Heritage gives one genetic modification for free and references pg. 72

pg. 72 is the entire Genetech chapter which includes: Phenotype adjustment, Transgenics, and Genetic Infusions.

Pg. 93 (within the Genetech chaper) discusses Transgenics, and more importantly for this discussion, Animal Features. At first I just saw the title and thought..."oh yay, I can look like an animal" and then after reading the FAQ, I took a closer look....and there it was:

"Most of the functional changes available through biotech are also possible through transgenic alteration...."

So what is Biotech exactly? The referenced portion gives pg. 61 of Aug. which is the rules section for Bioware and its subparts like Symbionts and such. Biotech, is bioware

Edit: Dang...I post too slow.
Edit Edit: As for the availability, that doesn't really come into play since you're getting the piece for free, and not buying it.

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 10:20 PM

I've already said that. I mean the immunity quality is GM based so are man made drugs in sacs/chem glands and so is the use of those as trans genics. I mean there are lots of places you can lock down on this. As for additction haveing a constant dose of the drug iirc bypasses it as the drug NEVER wears off.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 23 2010, 10:24 PM

Here's where we full stop.

Optional rules are not used in SRM. This includes most stuff that "requires gamemaster's approval", unless specifically allowed in the SRM FAQ.



-karma

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 10:28 PM

No its RAW in the books GM's aprovel is normaly falited the other way in missions see all skills not implicitly bared from drone auto-softs being legal in missions.

Posted by: bernardo Mar 23 2010, 10:38 PM

Yeah, I was just pointing that out to show that the Genetic Heritage qualitie does not need to be banned as someone said some posts up. It only breaks if the GM allows bioware that is not recommend (in most circumstances) by the FAQ. So the problem is not the qualitie itself.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 23 2010, 10:41 PM

It's in the FAQ. That is not the same as the RAW.



-karma

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 10:42 PM

Its a califaction of RAW. RAW its self says the same just very opapely see.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 23 2010, 10:48 PM

The key to your argument is a single almost throwaway line, not further elaborated on in the book, or given any sort of actual rules mechanic treatment.

It's fairly clearly tossed in as a gamemaster option. Which the FAQ confirms.

Items that require gamemaster approval by default in SRM have the gamemaster response of "No, you cannot."


-karma

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 10:49 PM

Thats not true. There are a few thinks that have that line where the responce is yes yes you can.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Mar 23 2010, 10:56 PM

Name one.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 23 2010, 10:56 PM

I'm sorry for an almost irrelevant post...but what exactly does SRM stand for? ShadowRun......

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Mar 23 2010, 10:58 PM

Shadowrun Missions, the ongoing or "Living" shadowrun campaign. If you'd like to know more I'd love to go into it, but it would be very off topic here.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 23 2010, 11:00 PM

And all the ones that are allowed are SPECIFICALLY called out in the Missions FAQ.

This isn't one of them.

I'll also point out the WHOLE LINE from Augmentation is as follows:

"Most of the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are
also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."

The partial rules quote seems an attempt to be clever by omitting the fact that no actual rules on such an option are detailed. No mention of what the "comparable" Essence or Nuyen costs are. Note that it says, "comparable". Not "the same as". Also, no exact treatment times are listed.



-karma

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 11:02 PM

Back when synner was a dev he posted that the skills for auto soft rule where RAW in SRM as they have the GM aprovly stamp on skill that require creative thinking. Synner stated that all skills bar the ones explicitly stated in the text where good to go.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 23 2010, 11:03 PM

Yeah, the forum for Missions stuff is here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showforum=20

But even as a general SR4 question, it's firmly in Gamemaster House Rule territory - as I pointed out, the books mention the possibility but fail to actually provide rules on how to implement the idea.



-karma

Posted by: Dumori Mar 23 2010, 11:05 PM

Yes they do the rules are same cost and essence os the basic bio but its a natural(geniticly natrular) part of the body so it is detected like geneware.
Also the FAQ is kind practicality a broad based errata atm.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 23 2010, 11:11 PM

It was by no means meant to mislead on it, just that it was the pertinent information. As you said, there were no mechanics given that listed the treatment times, nor changes to essence cost...so for the point that I was making, was irrelevant.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 23 2010, 11:14 PM

"comparable" is not "the same as".

It means "similar".

Not "the same".

The rules are not detailed. Therefore they have to be made up or created by the gamemaster. He might decide to use the regular Bioware costs, but that's still him creating rules that aren't in the books. A given gamemaster might decide that the prices are at 110% of the listed Bioware costs. That might be considered "comparable" too.

Again, it's gamemaster created rules. House rules.

Additionally, can you please point out where exactly it shows us how long each specific treatment takes?

The SR FAQ specifically confirms this is a Gamemaster Approval thing.



-karma

Posted by: bernardo Mar 24 2010, 12:05 AM

Here is the whole FAQ entry:

"Can I get bioware as genetech? If so, can I get it in different grades, and what is the Essence cost?

Sort of. Most of the functional changes available through bioware are available through the Animal Features transgenic alteration genetech for comparable Essence and nuyen costs (p.93, Augmentation); i.e., a transgenic digestive expansion would cost 0.5 Essence and 20,000¥.

The exact limitations of what is and what is not available are up to the gamemaster; as a rule of thumb for gamemasters out there: if it's in the animal kingdom already (echolocation, gecko thumbs, gills, etc.) it's probably fair game. More exotic implants like chemical glands for synthetic drugs, false front, and symbionts are a little more iffy; though anyone who's had children could at least make an argument for little parasites growing inside of you being completely natural.

Unlike bioware, however, genetech is not available in grades; therefore any transgenic alterations of this type will be based on the base Essence and nuyen cost of the bioware.

Yes, this does mean that a character with the Genetic Heritage quality can get a piece of bioware as a transgenic modification for "free" (i.e., no nuyen cost) with the gamemaster's approval; the character still has to pay BP for the quality and Essence for the bioware/transgenic modification."


So it would take 1-3 months, wich is the treatment time for the Animal Features transgenic alteration (Augmentaion, p. 93).

Note that even if you are ok with the rule that says you can have genetech that does the same thing bioware does, this rule is especific to the Animal Features genetech, so you should choose a bioware that mimics some animal feature: "if it's in the animal kingdom already (echolocation, gecko thumbs, gills, etc.) it's probably fair game. More exotic implants like chemical glands for synthetic drugs, false front, and symbionts are a little more iffy"

My point is: you can take the FAQ as RAW if you like, but to have a symbiont as a genetic alteration that is suposed to mimic an animal feature would be a (not recomended) GM decision.

Posted by: Dumori Mar 24 2010, 12:24 AM

How ever symbionts are inderpendent creatures. And two very aproctese can be taken here. One if a syboont can make k-10 then you can make a chem gland that dose so. Or there are animals that are born with sybontic ceatures in them to soem extent most life is an example mitochondria make a weak president though.

Posted by: Emy Mar 24 2010, 12:42 AM

Serious question: could you slow down a little and read over your post before you hit submit?

How ever => However,
inderpendent => independent? interdependent?
aproctese => ???
syboont => symbiont
dose => does
sybiontic => symbiotic
ceatures => creatures
soem => some
president => precedent

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 24 2010, 01:02 AM

I dunno, it's funnier to think of a mitochondria as President.

What platform would he run under?



-karma

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 24 2010, 01:04 AM

not touching politics with my ten foot pole . .

Posted by: Emy Mar 24 2010, 01:06 AM

Energy, naturally.

Posted by: Squinky Mar 24 2010, 01:14 AM

Disregarding the other issues already presented, wouldn't having an immunity to K-10 remove the "good" effects as well?

This new clarification is munchkinable enough without going this wacky anyway

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Mar 24 2010, 01:18 AM

My guess is Dumori is sleep deprived.
And drunk.
And high.
And probably at least one or two more things.


I literally could not decipher some of his posts (mostly because I gave up before I got a headache),and the rest takes far more effort to read than normal.

Posted by: Emy Mar 24 2010, 01:20 AM

Well, it's a little murky, but as I believe was pointed out earlier in this thread, Natural Immunity does say that you can take 1 dose of the agent every X hours "with no ill effects."

Posted by: Umidori Mar 24 2010, 01:30 AM

The intention of Natural Immunity is that it is to be used against poisons and vemons and the like, which arguably do not have positive effects. However, if they did, those effects would be canceled as well.

If you drink chlorine in large quantities, it kills you. If you drink chlorine in very small quantities in your tap water, it makes you healthier. If you are immune to chlorine, you cannot die because of it. You also cannot benefit from it.

~Umidori

Posted by: Emy Mar 24 2010, 01:34 AM

The description of Natural Immunity does mention drugs. Plus, from what I remember, they're treated as toxins in the rules anyway.

Posted by: Squinky Mar 24 2010, 01:34 AM

I can't find any mention of it earlier in this thread, but there are admittedly many posts that had to be decyrpted

The quality is correct, you can take a dose and not get any ill effects. You also don't get benefits, as the intention of the quality is to defend your body from the agent in question affecting you. How does your natural defenses know to leave on the good effects? It doesn't.

Posted by: Dumori Mar 24 2010, 01:59 AM

I would like to point out that recently most of my posts are in a state of sleep deprvation and pain from migrains. They are curently oucuring daily also these migrains rip my ability to deal with my dysliexia to shreads. So yes my posts are shocking. Really call me out on bits if needed I think I'll be able to get my points across better. I'm nither drunk or high and I'm waiting for you guys to joke my migrains are caused by my mind trying to under stand ny own posts.

Posted by: Dumori Mar 24 2010, 02:00 AM

I would like to point out that recently most of my posts are in a state of sleep deprvation and pain from migrains. They are curently oucuring daily also these migrains rip my ability to deal with my dysliexia to shreads. So yes my posts are shocking. Really call me out on bits if needed I think I'll be able to get my points across better. I'm nither drunk or high and I'm waiting for you guys to joke my migrains are caused by my mind trying to under stand ny own posts.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 24 2010, 02:48 AM

Pro-life, I'd wager.


Also, what the hell, all self-respecting browsers have built-in spellcheckers by now (that why I am still even remotely comprehensible), so posting in a style like OP's is just a sign of disrespect, towards the language and himself as much as the readers.

Posted by: Rasumichin Mar 24 2010, 03:23 AM

I'll leave out the whole issue that being immune to a drug should mean you are immune to all it's effects.
I mean, it should be pretty obvious, but let's dicuss this assuming we are taking the RAW as proverbial as possible.

There are two kinds of addiction tests :
-one kind to determine whether a character has cravings for a substance right now.
-another kind to be made at the gamemaster's discretion to determine whether a character gains the Addiction Quality or an existing Addiction increases in level.

If you are on a substance all the fucking time, yes, the GM should call for this kind of test frequently.
You are constantly binging on the most extreme stimulant ever known to man, i think this should validate tests like this.
Which means that you will also develop a tolerance to the drug's effects (see Arsenal for details), which means that you need higher and higher doses.
You'll need two doses to get the desired effects once you have a mild addiction, 4 when it becomes moderate, 8 when it becomes severe and 16 at burnout level.

A sac symbiont works like a chemical gland, which means that it can produce one dose in 24 hours and can hold up to 4 doses.
Once you get above moderate addiction level, your symbiont cannot produce enough K-10 on its own to get you high, and would need between 24 and 96 hours before that to produce sufficient amounts of a drug that only lasts for 5x1D6 minutes.
So there might be a certain flaw in your plan, even within your reading of the rules.

Yes, you could supplement your internal production with product bought off the street.
Good that K-10 merely has an availability of 16F and is sold at bargain prices of 900 a dose (which would mean 14400 to feel effects at burnout level).

And on average, you have to redose every 18.5 minutes...see where this is going?

Getting all the implants to achieve the same benefits would be much cheaper in the long run and would be easier as well.

BTW, i would have some concerns to allow a character to be born with a genecrafted version of a recently developed technology that mimicks another, unrelated, recently developed technology in the first place.

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 24 2010, 07:41 AM

It could probably happen. though I don't think a 3-yars old toddler would be a very good runner... Remember that your genetic heritage can only get you 2050 vintage genemods.

Note : and one thing about addiction and other amusing issues : the charater would have had them straight from birth. Probably ending up as a total burnout wreck before being 5...

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 24 2010, 07:45 AM

Ya know....I understand from a fluff and interpretation of the rules for stating that you can only get 2050 vintage genemods and such...however, what is stated, is that you could get biotech. Not biotech from SR2, or even SR3, but biotech. So for instance, when my Sam takes Synaptic Booster, R3 from Genetic Heritage.....and it works, by RAW.

Edit: Yes, I saw the whole, with a GM's approval of course.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 24 2010, 09:12 AM

Now imagine a child and later on teenager with suprathoid gland or synaptic accelerator . .

Posted by: Dumori Mar 24 2010, 09:30 AM

I'm assuming a block was implated on the sac during the chars ealryer stages. As for you there is no way to pull off constant obe dose of K-10 look over the rules for both sac and chem gland. They can both me set up to keep a contant dose in your blod stream. Also isn't addriction an ILL effect of this drug much like the 18S damage and the permanent berserk chance.

Posted by: HappyDaze Mar 24 2010, 10:18 AM

I thought the stated guideline was that the biomod had to occur naturally in the animal kingdom. While we have many animals with the equivalent of level 1 and possibly even a few with level 2, I don't know of any non-paranormal (and I don't think that genecrafting paranormal abilities is allowed) animal with 4 initiative passes. So, per the FAQ, you're not really following RAW if you allow Synaptic Booster (Rating 3) from Genetic Heritage. Sorry.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 24 2010, 10:36 AM

While definining an initiative pass in the real world is quite difficult, I would say a birds wings beating 1000 times a second, is pretty close to 3 IP's worth of movement. Not to mention some of the predatory cats that can tear you up before you really know it.

Posted by: bernardo Mar 24 2010, 12:24 PM

Beware the hummingbird-man!

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 24 2010, 01:17 PM

Lol, now there's a mental picture that's worth it Hmm....Class III Surge.....darn, wings isn't an option

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 24 2010, 06:11 PM

Would you that that quality for a character that's say amongst the earliest UGE babies even when there was defintively neither bioware nor genemods available ? Which is defnitively a possibility for an elf. Even more stupid, by your logic, I could make a character that's an immortal elf left over from the previous magic cycle and give him the quality. Even if he was born a few thousanf years before gene therapy was ever invented.

There's nothing in the RAW that says 'removing all your blood and replacing it with coca-cola will kill you'. But it doesn't take much common sense to apply the result. Same goes for the genetic heritage being limited to what was available at the time the character was born.

Posted by: Draco18s Mar 24 2010, 06:13 PM

Technically... one could get Immunity (Alcohol) and then quite literally drink themselves stupid ("BAC of 30%? Really? I didn't notice..."). Thereby replacing their blood with another liquid and not dying.

Posted by: Umidori Mar 24 2010, 06:38 PM

Except that beyond a certain point they'd suffer the effects of blood dilution and that would kill them instead.

~Umidori

Posted by: Draco18s Mar 24 2010, 06:50 PM

I think that falls under the "ill effects of alcohol" covered by Immunity.

Posted by: HappyDaze Mar 24 2010, 07:15 PM

The bird moves the same in SR4 with 10 beats or 1000 beats - wingbeats/footsteps/tire rotations are totally not a part of the IP system. And, looking at Running Wild, no mundane bird has more than 1 IP.


Are any such creatures statted with more than 2 IP in SR4? I do not believe so - a cheetah has only 2 IP per Running Wild, which is RAW.

Posted by: Umidori Mar 24 2010, 09:59 PM

It's one thing for a snake to not be poisoned by its own venom. It's another thing to drain the snake's blood and replace it with venom. *snickers*

~Umidori

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 24 2010, 10:04 PM

This is true. The natural creatures that have been statted out, have only been given 2 IP's....which gives precedence for Synaptic Booster R1. Meaning the biotech could very well be represented in the natural world. The biotech. Which is what the rules called for IIRC. It didn't state what rating.

And using replacing your blood with coke as an example of rules not stated in the RAW is ridiculous. There's no actual rule even for replacing your blood. What we ARE discussing, is the nitty gritty of a particular rule. One that exists. And makes no mention of being limited by what was available in 2050. It does not state to go back to the SR1, SR2 books and choose from there. Not even SR3. It states biotech, and then gives the page number reference....for the current SR4 book. If you want to play it like that, that's up to you and your GM.....unless you're the GM. It does say with GM's approval afterall.

Posted by: tagz Mar 24 2010, 11:02 PM

Since this whole idea is built on a RAW that includes "GM permission" I think it's fair to shoot this down with GM rulings.

First off, I'd never allow this in my game.

Second, if you treat drugs as a possible toxin, IE slab in capsule rounds or eX slipped into your drink at a rave, when a defender makes a successful resistance test he does not suffer the effects. I see Natural Immunity as a guaranteed success on resistance tests.

Now using the word "ill" as the crux of what parts effect you and what does not... that's arbitrary. Lets take slab. If you are shot with said capsule round in a fight. Well, falling into suspended animation is an "ill effect" certainly. So by that justification natural immunity prevents it. But then, you want to get some cyber and need to be put under. Oh, well now you WANT to go into suspended animation. It's not ill effects anymore so I guess you can use it now. Or eX, didn't want to get date raped so your immunity kicked in, but now that you want the charisma and perception boosts it's just fine, but that logic drop sucks so the immunity stops that part only. NOPE. That's arbitrary and cherry-picking. All or nothing.

As GM, I could say to you, "With k10 I think that the positive stat changes and berserking are ok but the IPs are bad," by that logic as it doesn't define "ill" at all, and by it's nature the word is situational.

Third. You can become addicted to ANYTHING. AR, foci, gambling, whatever. Not just drugs. A GM could rule that you become addicted to the feeling of power that comes with the positive stat change. You could burn out from that addiction in a few days. I would do this to a build like this.

There are plenty of game breaking builds, that nothing new. But don't base one off rules that require GM approval, it'll almost never fly. I can't think of too many self respecting GMs that would allow all three of these interpretations to go through.

Posted by: Rasumichin Mar 24 2010, 11:43 PM

I just read up on the chemical gland again and guess what?
You don't even have to go as far as this.

Chemical glands can only produce naturally occuring substances.

This gives you a wide selection of possible compounds, including a lot of deadly venoms and also a bunch of drugs (alcohol and "some hallucinogens" are mentioned specifically), but K-10 clearly isn't among them.


That said, a chemical gland in itself would be a likely choice for a transgenic modification, as there's a lot of animals with similar organs around.
I don't quite get why one would want to go for something as obscure as a sac endosont.



From the description, eX doesn't sound like a candidate for a date rape drug.
It's a blatantly obvious bowdlerized version of MDMA (or one of it's non-dopaminergic derivates, as eX does not have any stimulant effects).
Not quite fitted for knocking people out, i'd say.
And the empathogenic and aphrodisiac effects may ease persuasion attempts, but strictly by the rules, it would have no effect in this regard as it doesn't lower any stat used to resist social skills.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 24 2010, 11:46 PM

Is there anything in nature that does similar things?
Use that one instead. Or while we're at it, wanna go for a perpetual natural high?
Naturally occuring endorphines, hormones and adrenaline.

Posted by: Dumori Mar 24 2010, 11:48 PM

However sacs may not have that restriction. I don't have aug at hand so i cant check it.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 24 2010, 11:51 PM

a Sack does not produce anything, a Sac has to be filled with the stuff by hand.
Or automagically through a chemical gland.

Posted by: Rasumichin Mar 25 2010, 12:13 AM

Natural stimulants would include caffeine, ephedrine (doesn't even come close to K-10) and ecgonin, the active ingredient in coca leaves and -yeah, you guessed it- cocaine.

Which means the strongest stimulant that could be produced by a chemical gland would be something similar to novacoke, most likely with reduced effects (as it is described as an improved version of cocaine, which already has a higher ecgonin concentration than coca leaves).

Releasing adrenalin and noradrenalin would of course be an option.
In fact, it's what most stimulants do, whether we're talking about caffeine, amphetamin, methamphetamin or, hypothetically, also K-10, but it's only a part of their mode of action (with the exception of caffeine, that's entirely an adreno-agonist).
All stronger stimulants work mainly on either release or reuptake inhibition of dopamine (in the case of cocaine, throw in a lot of serotonin reuptake inhibtion as well).

I could see giving GM permission for a chemical gland that mimics the effects of betameth or other weaker stimulants based on that reasoning, but nothing as effective as K-10.




The rules say it works exactly like an internal release chemical gland.

Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Mar 25 2010, 03:19 AM

This is only my opinion and what I would rule as a GM (I'm very liberal as a GM).

1) Any bioware is available as geneware.

2) Bioware bought (through any means, be it a quality or nuyen) is still subject to the availability and level cap rules which are the same as for bioware. At character creation it better fit these rules or the answer is no. I acknowledge that there are qualities that can get you around these rules. Because I am liberal this is fair game.

3) One way or another your character will be challenged within the game.

I imagine Shadowrun Missions would be clear about which rulebooks are allowed to be used and if anything is excluded.

Posted by: Squinky Mar 25 2010, 04:52 AM

As an example of synaptic booster transgenic stuff being possible, look up animal reaction times versus humans. There are definitely many creatures that can react well beyond the level 3 synaptic booster in my opinion.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 25 2010, 06:29 AM

I fully agree. Humans move horridly slow compared to the animal world.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 25 2010, 08:45 AM

Which is why humans had to invent guns and other stuff.
Do you know why there are animals that have been the same for millions of years basically?
Because there was no need for them to adapt and become even better than they allready are.

Posted by: Whipstitch Mar 25 2010, 09:37 AM

Well, the problem isn't really so much a lack of raw processing power, but rather a lack of prioritization. Humans process an awful lot of sensory information in an awful lot of ways while also pondering all that dumb crap we worry about every day with our fancy ass brains. Meanwhile, a lot of the fastest critters alive are rather small and have a few relatively simplistic reflexes and behaviors that take precedence over everything else they do. For example, water shrews are some of the fastest mammals going-- high speed cameras have shown them to typically initiate attacks in under 25 milliseconds* when they're diving and something disturbs their whiskers! It's a combination of a hard-wired, instinctive behavior, limited sensory conflict (they are primarily nocturnal and operate almost exclusively off smell and whiskers when submerged) and small size-- water shrews weigh all of 15 grams, so they actually have a bit of a latency advantage over us "big" critters simply because they don't need as many cells sending information down the pipe before it hits the brain. The size thing is admittedly a tiny consideration when compared to the complexity problem, but again, when you're talking about such fast creatures, a millisecond here and there can mean the difference between an easy meal and escaped prey.


*Seriously, that is stupid fast. Freakishly enough though, shrews have nothing on flies and spiders. Reaction times are surreal once you get down to the insect world.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 25 2010, 10:38 AM

I believe that the point being made was that there were animals that were fast enough to have 3 IP's, which obviously there are. I actually didn't know that about water shrews though. That's stupid crazy fast.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Mar 25 2010, 10:53 AM

The only way to be really fast is to be rather dumb and small. Small creatures experience less inertia, and creatures that have a limited set of behaviors choose faster.

You can't really transplant that kind of speed to metahumans without extensive lobotomy to simplify the brain process.

Posted by: Umidori Mar 25 2010, 10:15 PM

Which is why I love Foamy, my lobotomized murder gnome. He fits in a backpack or large briefcase and actually rather enjoys such cramped spaces. They work in conjunction with sedatives to keep him blissfully unresponsive when he's not needed, which is most of the time. When the shit hits the fan, his handlers deploy him to kill stuff, which he primarily does by tearing out throats.

~Umidori

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 25 2010, 10:21 PM

Lol, sounds like a gnome Universal Soldier type.

Posted by: KnightIII Mar 26 2010, 04:22 AM

I love munchkin characters. And I say this as a GM. After all, my players include a Doom Troll (Camoflage armor, 9 Body, Aluminum bones, rating 3 dermal plates, a riot shield and a helmet. Do you have any idea what it takes to hurt that beast? ) and a Nosferatu mage.

How do you deal with these loverly (not a mispel) characters made with "RAW" who cry when you slap em with a GM "no"? You remind them that anything they can do, so can the bad guys. And anything exceptional like that will get around and the bad guys will prepare for it. Nothing gets table agreed rules interpretation faster than going up against an enemy group thats just as nasty as they are.

So you're a suped up mutant troll whos body naturally produces a synthetic drug to which you are somehow only immune to the negatives of? *scoff* The Azzies have been breeding para creatures and metahumans like that for years. Secretly, of course. And your mission is to infiltrate the [City Name] zoo, where the corperate J has heard rumors of some new experimental super metas. Oh crap, ambushed by 6 freaked out super-drug-trolls? Tough luck chummer, roll initive.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 26 2010, 07:37 AM

^This.

I have absolutely no problem with the GM pulling out the stops to give my team some good tough opposition. Even if its the same stops that I pulled to create my guy.

Posted by: Dumori Mar 26 2010, 08:31 AM

Nor do I. Unless its done by the GM to the point of dickery but then who likes GM dickery?

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 26 2010, 01:21 PM

Too true. In the end, SR is about having fun. Regardless. It all comes down to what you and the GM can agree on, and what he'll let slide. Yes, we talk about RAW and RAI, but it mostly comes down to what's allowed. And anything that your GM allows you to do....will most likely come back to haunt you later

Posted by: bernardo Mar 26 2010, 03:24 PM

sounds like a dystopian pokemon

Posted by: Dumori Mar 26 2010, 11:27 PM

But thats 90% of the fun in a game where every one is power-gaming (yes I do play games where I RP but my power-gaming games bring up way more questions) When every one is capable of holding of a lone star HTR team you can have some fun. We tend to play those games hard and fast.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 27 2010, 09:13 AM

Yeah, it's really not that hard to "break the game" using the default rules. You don't have to resort to the house rules in the FAQ to do it. And, to be honest, it's far more impressive when you manage it without having to use any weird rules, interpretations, or kinda-sorta exceptions. The basics behind the Pornomancer (though it's grown to include some of the more iffy stuff over time) is a fine example of that.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 27 2010, 10:30 AM

See Troll Bow Adepts.
See The Ultimate Mundane Climber.
See Mr.Lucky.
See Brick.
See Two-Hands-Revy
See Pornomancer.
See Mages dropping maximum overcast Stunballs.

Posted by: HappyDaze Mar 27 2010, 07:28 PM

You can't win an argument that RAW allows more than 2 IPs through mundane transgenics when you ignore the fact that RAW has no mundane critters with more than 2 IPs.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 27 2010, 08:18 PM

My argument, was to show that RAW allows more than 1 IP through mundane transgenics. There's precedence to allow synaptic boosters through transgenics. That was my argument. The text states that you can take biotech as a transgenic. Which synaptic boosters are biotech. The text then suggests to GM's that they limit it to things that occur in the natural world. Which Synaptic Boosters does. It never states at the specified rating. Now, assuming that that's your interpretation, you also have to consider, that not every creature was statted out. In fact, most of the critters that are that stupid crazy fast, aren't.