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Posted by: kjones Mar 30 2010, 02:10 PM

I'm considering the possibility of trying to pass off regular 'ware as alpha, alpha as beta, etc. What kind of skill/test would you use to tell the difference?

On an unrelated note, is this a dick thing to do as a GM? I'd have to track that player's Essence secretly for a while. If they tried upgrading again, would they just... die?

Posted by: Penta Mar 30 2010, 02:24 PM

I'd think any doctor could tell.

No, really.

The way I see it, most shadowrunners still get their checkups, the doc that is their primary care doc just doesn't ask where they got their implants, and they use other docs for the implantation stuff.

However, I'd imagine every doc doing a checkup goes over one's cyberware and bioware in detail.

Posted by: nezumi Mar 30 2010, 02:28 PM

It would take a biotech(cyberware) test, either by directly examining it, or using a a biomedical scanner. Do note that the clinic must be high enough rating to permit that sort of cyberware to be installed - which implies investment - which might be harmed by selling false goods. If you contain that, no, it seems perfectly reasonable (as long as it's not from a contact the PC paid a lot of points for).

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Mar 30 2010, 02:39 PM

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Sure, such things happen. And such docs are found hanged with their own intestines.

Posted by: Dragnar Mar 30 2010, 02:57 PM

I wholeheartedly agree with the "Yes".
Secretly taking more essence from your players without telling them and then one day jumping up enthusiastically as your street sam implants some new ware and annoucing "Haha! It wasn't really alphaware all along, you're dead now!" is a dick move. Quite a big one, at that.

Apart from that, differentiating standard from alphaware cyber is what? 1 hit with a cyberware scanner or 2 hits with an assensing test? How could anyone not notice? Stuff like that might happen to some poor gangers, but a doc trying that stunt on a runner?

Posted by: kjones Mar 30 2010, 03:28 PM

I was convinced by your point until you planted this image in my head. Now I desperately want to leap up from behind my screen, twirling my mustache, and yell "Ha!".

I should clarify a bit - this isn't the sort of thing that I would do for someone looking for 'ware through the normal channels. One of my players has expressed interest in some 'ware that he can't afford, and so I'm considering options for him - among those are getting hosed by some shady 'doc hawking gear that "fell off the back of a truck".

My goal here isn't to screw my players arbitrarily. If I wanted to do that, doesn't Ares have "rods from God" floating around?

Posted by: Medicineman Mar 30 2010, 03:32 PM

One of my players has expressed interest in some 'ware that he can't afford, and so I'm considering options for him
Did you consider used cyberware ?

JahtaHey
Medicineman

Posted by: Dragnar Mar 30 2010, 03:57 PM

While I happen to understand the allure in prober moustache twirling, there are original ways to make cyberware worse without killing your players.
May I interest you in a houserule at my table concerning used cyberware (because the original rules are dull and useless)?
You get to buy used cyberware at significant discounts, but it comes with the gremlins handicap attached, meaning you're glitching more often when using it.
That saves money and leads to fun complications to make your player pay in sweat and blood what he saved in nuyen.

Posted by: Stingray Mar 30 2010, 04:12 PM

..or Mysterious Implants (from Runner's Companion pg. 106)
Wired Reflexes (w/ REM monitor attached) that vibrates every morning 0500 and do not let u sleep longer than that..

Posted by: kjones Mar 30 2010, 04:16 PM

I like these ideas.

Where are the "actual" used cyberware rules?

Posted by: Stingray Mar 30 2010, 04:24 PM

Augmentation pg. 31

Posted by: Levithix Mar 30 2010, 04:38 PM

I don't think it would be to bad if you sold him the wrong grade, as long as he has the ability to confront the seller about it and come out on top. (Either peacefully, or by force.)

Posted by: kjones Mar 30 2010, 08:40 PM

I sort of agree with you (after all, I'm the one who proposed the idea) but an Essence hole is for life (modulo expensive gene therapy).

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 30 2010, 09:20 PM

Considering that everything short of deltagrade are actual, physically improved models (hence being able to have second-hand implants of those grades), I imagine it'd be as easy as reading the brand name of the implant or checking the serial number. Sure, once you're knocked out for the surgery, a doctor can implant you with whatever he feels like, but as others have mentioned... those doctor's don't have long life expectancies.

Deltaware is an exception because, if I remember correctly, it's basically just a betagrade implant that's been implanted in a more specific and intensively invasive manner. Sort of like overclocking a PC and including a water cooling system to handle it. They may have changed it in 4th Edition, but that's how I remember it being described in the past. But since the clinics capable of doing this are few and far between, and the prices they charge are outlandish, it's safe to bet that they're not going to risk their reputations in order to rip you off. Not in this fashion anyway.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Mar 30 2010, 09:27 PM

Per Augmentation, even Betaware is custom made and only for the specific user.