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Posted by: IKerensky Jun 23 2010, 06:42 AM

First spell cast in SR4A last week end.

It was a massive FOR 8 Powerball(?) (Type P, Damage P, Direct, Area)

Caster roll 3 aditionnal success.

Everyone take 11P resisting only with body (and one spell-lunger with counterspell 4).

Caster took a large drain hit, physical. Opposition lie in wreck.


--------

That feel really, really strong to me.

Especially as I could have dual cast the spell and be nearly assured to have them all dead even without using Edge.

Am I missing something or is Direct magic really that strong ?

Posted by: Emy Jun 23 2010, 06:48 AM

Yes, magic is strong.

Which is why you always geek the mage first.

Actually, you did miss something, though your conclusion (spells are strong) is correct.

They don't resist the damage. They resist the casting itself. The opposed test is Spellcasting + Magic vs Body + Counterspelling. So if any of them got 3 hits on the resistance test, they should have been unaffected (with the way you were playing, they would have still taken 8P).

Posted by: MikeKozar Jun 23 2010, 07:11 AM

I just had a beautiful dream... I was playing Shadowrun, and every PC was non-magical. They had automatic weapons, cyberware, Trolls, Orks, drones, and crazy vehicles. The enemy corp facility had cold, professional mercs with a sweet security net, and when the opposition finally noticed the heroes, the fight was epic. Just as the team is dusting itself off, there is ... silence. No helicopter HTR teams, no Citymasters full of Cyberzombies...the night is quiet. They look around, suspicious. The cybersam's augmented hearing picks up a scraping sound, and his onboard systems ID it as a stick match being ignited. He whirls around to see a small, elderly man, lighting a pipe. The man smiles, benignly, and the Samurai hesitates. The man drops the match, and the grass below erupts into a column of flame...which HOWLS. The samurai empties his magazine into the raging Elemental as he screams "Fall back! Get to the truck!" The team's Troll turns to help him, but the Samurai curses at him. "RUN, Rodriguez! That's a fragging order." The samurai slams a new mag into his assault rifle and charges at the mage and his monster.

The dwarf swallows the rest of his brew as the young razorboy nods, eyes wide. "What did you do?"

"We ran."

The razorboy is shaken. Shadowruns aren't supposed to end like that. "Why...why are you telling me this?"

The dwarf dropped a credstick on the bar and stood up. "We're putting a team together. Gonna get some payback." He slid his thick AR shades on and lit a cigar, watching the match burn ruefully. "Mages gotta die."

Posted by: Ragewind Jun 23 2010, 07:17 AM

That Sir, is awesome

Posted by: Neraph Jun 23 2010, 07:34 AM

And that's why that second magazine should have been SnS ammo.

Posted by: IKerensky Jun 23 2010, 07:45 AM

Thanks for the clarification.

So if they score 3 hits they suffer nothing, if they score 2 hits they suffer 10P or 8P ?

Posted by: Makki Jun 23 2010, 07:50 AM

that topic is wrong. it should say 'Direct Combat Spells are strong'. So we banned them

9P i think. Force+net hits

Posted by: Cardul Jun 23 2010, 09:40 AM

You could also use the SR4a optional +1 drain per net success....If you die casting that mighty spell,
then it really did not help that much...

Posted by: IKerensky Jun 23 2010, 11:54 AM

Trouble is that sometimes you dont really care if you are going to die or not... especially if you are going to get screwed anyway. Perhaps adding a Willpower test in order to get the nerves to take the drain.

But I am thinking Direct Physical spell are in effect more too much efficient combat wise... make you wonder why to use indirect spells at all.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 23 2010, 12:16 PM

Yes, magic is strong in general. That's the point of it, though. Shadowrun isn't a balanced, tactical game. It's a roleplaying game, and in the setting, magic is feared and respected for its power.

Fortunately, there are defenses. And your best one is to have a mage on your side. You know, the whole "fight fire with fire" mantra. Counterspelling, whether done by a mage or a conjured spirit with Magical Guard, is very effective against spells courtesy of the way they're defended against. As others have already said, you're not defeating the Damage Value of the attack; you're defeating the Spellcasting Test.

That said, if you still don't care for how powerful magic is, there's two easy solutions. First, don't allow overcasting. That's where most of the brokeness comes from in my experience. Nearly every example you see of people demonstrating how powerful magic is, it's from an overcast Direct Combat spell. Second, allow characters to use another attribute in the Resistance Test. For example, Body or Willpower + Edge (+ Counterspelling). If you do that, you should probably also change it so that casters don't suffer as much drain from spells that fail to work, since it makes the Spellcasting Test more of a 50-50 shot in a lot of cases.

But that's just my opinion.

Posted by: Doc Byte Jun 23 2010, 12:26 PM

Well, force 8 is a massive spell. I think I'ver never cast anything above 6 in all these years of playing magicians. If the Troll-Sam gets out his Panther, to do cry "firearms are way to strong"?

Posted by: PatB Jun 23 2010, 12:37 PM

Couple of things were missing in that statement:

1- Like said before, the was badly resisted for 3 reasons:
a) The victims must resist the caster's hits (Body vs 3 hits in this case)
b) Use Edge
c) And most importantly, why did the opposing mage didn't use CounterSpell to protect his teammates ??

2- Situation: was this the last fight of the run ?? 'Cause after casting that spell, you're probably out for the rest of the run (or almost). First Aid could help you, but not Heal.

3- Multi-cast ?? I doubt it. One drain per spell, each increased by 1 per extra spell, not sure your mage could live that. All in all, see point 1.

4- Is magic strong ?? Oh, hell yes !!! But it's not invincible.

5- GMs must also learn how opposing forces would work against mages. Even if security forces don't have a mage with them, they surely had training in case they would face one (that's how I play it in my game). Use cover to protect yourself from bullets and spells. Spread the forces so that a grenade, or an area of effect spell, don't hit everyone. Etc.

Posted by: IKerensky Jun 23 2010, 02:07 PM

1c - Well the Mage is a newbie as much as I am and she just forget to cover her friends. They also mistook the ennemy orc mage for a hacker (racial prejudice I suppose) so they weren't expecting him to start lunging spells.

2- It was a NPC that overcast.

3- The point is the Orc didn't expect to survive if not ressorting to extreme mesure, in the previous round they have dispatched his teammate with short burst of exploding bullets, even thoses lying on the ground or the one they petrificate. He was cornered so I supposed he had no choice but to ressort to maximum effect.

4- Didn't say so. I just wasn't expecting this kind of efficience.

5- How to protect from Area Direct spell? I understand the spreading comment but it need a lots of place to do so and so much spread they lessen their defence against mundane.

Posted by: Rand Jun 23 2010, 02:24 PM

I have an idea about overcasting: how about you generate the drain normally and then add +1 DV per point of overcast. Example: Joe the mage is casting Powerbolt, he has a magic of 6, but is going to overcast at force 8. That means his DV is Force/2+1+2=6 (yes, it is physical also). This way the overcasting drain isn't divided like regular drain, enforcing the fact that it is more serious/dangerous.. How's that?

Posted by: Starmage21 Jun 23 2010, 02:39 PM

I fail to see how this is any worse thana grenade.

Except Mr mage had to resist hell's drain.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 23 2010, 02:46 PM

Duh, grenades are dangerous. On the other hand, they're F to carry around. Oh well.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2010, 03:30 PM

You only need to speard out so the mages can only get a LOS on a two or less of you simultaniously, Drect spells can only damage targets the caster can see.


Pepper punch gas ones are actually completdly legal and still quite nasty unless the opposition is wearing gasmasks.

Posted by: Blade Jun 23 2010, 03:35 PM

And has no exposed skin.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 23 2010, 03:52 PM

Yes, but I meant the ones that act as a Force 8 Powerball (i.e., High Explosive).

Posted by: Malachi Jun 23 2010, 04:17 PM

I like the "extra drain by the amount of overcasting" rule. The other one I thought of for Direct Combat Spells was:

The target's hits on the resistance test get added to the DV of the drain of the spell.

This is an identical mechanic to Summoning: where the Spirit's hits add to the Drain of the Summoning. The rule above would not affect Indirect Combat spells. The theory behind it is: Direct Combat spells work but "shunting" mana directly into a target's aura, when trying to that the aura "pushes back" along that mana link between caster and target thus causing a mana backlash that results in the extra drain.

For area spells I would go with the highest number of hits from a single target.

I've tried it out in a couple sessions and it does work well for making a Mage think twice about pumping out those really high-force spells, especially overcasting. ("Wait, this is going to be base 9P drain... if they roll a lucky 4 hits I could be facing 13P in drain..."). I also have a house rule (since the beginning of 3rd edition days) that a magician must stay conscious from the drain in order for the spell to take effect. If they fall unconscious from the drain they can spend a point of Edge to have the spell activate anyways (kind of like a Dead Man's Trigger).

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 23 2010, 04:30 PM

I just don't understand the irrational fear of magic here, is this some kind of meta-roleplay?

Two shots from a firearm are just as much, if not more, damage than any direct damage spell. Explosives again do as much as area spells. The tradeoff is in having to buy and carry the gear around vs. hurting yourself with drain. If you bother to properly equip yourself you can do just as much damage as a Mage with no risk to yourself.

I've only played a little Shadowrun so far but IMHO the only thing really crazy about magic is binding spirits. If you really want to min/max then an elf mage with a charisma based tradition who walks around with a full menagerie of spirits is the way to go. You can still cast all the spells you want with a nice and high drain resist dice pool, with a simple action you can summon a fucking zoo to decimate the opposition and as a bonus you're a great Face in any social situation.

Posted by: Starmage21 Jun 23 2010, 04:45 PM

This is pretty much it. Any particular problems of magic by individual GMs are exactly as you said: irrational.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 23 2010, 04:51 PM

The problem comes from the lack of a defense against it. There's lots of ways to protect yourself from a bullet or a grenade or a drone. The only way to protect yourself from a spell is to take out the mage first, which is totally dependent on initiative and awareness, and is no more of a defense than it is against anything else. Once the mage casts his spell, though, you're screwed unless you happen to have a capable mage on your own side and/or get really lucky on your resistance roll.

Say you're in a one-on-one duel against a mage. He gets lucky and goes first. He overcasts a Stunbolt at minimal risk to himself. You get to roll Willpower against his Magic + Sorcery + Foci + Specializations + Other Bonuses. You may as wel not even bother, you're as good as dead. If you had gone first instead, and your only viable attack is the use of your Agility + Pistols + Smartlink, he gets to make multiple rolls to defend against your relatively feeble attacks, using Body + Armor plus whatever else he has at his disposal (including sustained spells like Armor, Barrier, and/or Deflection). The mage actually has a chance to survive. You pretty much don't.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 23 2010, 04:52 PM

Meta-roleplay? If anything, it's *more* roleplay: magic is scary.

Posted by: Tanegar Jun 23 2010, 05:04 PM

You're assuming the mage and the sam are both standing in the open in a well-lit (but not overlit) space. If there's cover available, the sam runs for cover. Break LOS, and the number of ways the mage can kill you goes way down. Pop smoke, dive for cover, circle around, shoot the mage in the back. Sure, if you're dumb enough to just stand there and let the other guy kill you, you're gonna die. Doesn't really prove anything.

Posted by: Starmage21 Jun 23 2010, 05:16 PM

He also assumes that firearm attacks are "relatively feeble", which they arent.

Posted by: PatB Jun 23 2010, 05:19 PM

That's cool. All situational. It's actually a good one. Still, it bears to say that the caster almost died for trying to cast that spell. He might as well take a few enemies at the same time. For me, this situation is the same as being surrounded, dropping a grenade at your feet, and hope for the best (either with better armor, that you're a troll, or anything that might give you an edge). Of course, that's assuming you don't want to be taken alive...


Direct spells have, usually a 6m radius from a valid living target. Try to be around 6m from your nearest friend. Also, the mage has to be able to see you. These are examples of mundane ways to 'defend' against AoE spells. Other then that, there's Counterspell.

For Inderect spells, the range is 'wider' because the mage can target anything and doesn't have to see you. However, Counterspell still works.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jun 23 2010, 05:30 PM

IIRC, he still needs a "primary" target in order to cast the spell. If he's trying to catch a sammy around the corner with an acid wave, he must be targeting someone or more likely something at the corner...so don't forget the OR table.

Posted by: SpellBinder Jun 23 2010, 05:44 PM

Reading this reminded me of what a newbie magician did in a run of mine. Overcasted a force 10 lightning ball spell at point blank range. Rendered everyone unconscious (including himself, he's a lousy counterspeller), and nearly killed troll meat shield in the process due to overflow. He himself lucked out on the drain (spent edge) and didn't die.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jun 23 2010, 05:46 PM

No, he is just assuming that you are in LOS of the mage and the mage is going first. A well built starting mage can one shot with relative ease any other non-counterspelling character (even with counterspelling a one shot is likely since most mages focus on casting first and counterspelling second) and do even worse with mind control magic (which is pretty much the most OP thing in the game).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 23 2010, 05:47 PM

Um. You also need LOS for those bullets. And the mage can see through the smoke, whatever kind it is.

The point is that, all other things equal, magic has fewer defenses than bullets. A lot fewer.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jun 23 2010, 05:52 PM

Firearms are pretty feeble when compared to magic. Mind magic is an "I win" button and direct spells are almost as bad.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2010, 05:54 PM

If the mage goes first, there's nothing else you can do except stand there and let him kill you.
You need actions to do all of those thinks you said and the mage killed you in first IP, before you got yours.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 23 2010, 06:00 PM

C'mon, you're not even pretending to make a fair comparison here. At the very least the gun bunny could use burst fire and pretty much garuntee hitting the mage. Plus, mages don't exactly have the best reaction, body and armor scores. Your explosive bullets will defeat that armor even with an armor spell being sustained, and physical barrier, are you kidding me? It requires a complex action to move it, it's ridiculous to expect anyone to e walking around with a bubble up around them. Oh and the mage won't have a ridiculous number of condition boxes either, so you're going to kill him with those rounds. The Mage is not some fully cybered walking tank with armor in the high 20's.

Plus I'd like to point out the ridiculous difference in expenditure and prep time involved in this match up. We've got a mage who has multiple foci active each worth tens of thousands of nuyen and dozens of karma. He's taken complex actions before the fight began to put spells into those sustained foci. The gun bunny can be naked with a gun and ammo worth a few thousand nuyen. The point being, the gun bunny has a lot more options in terms of gear and skills he could be applying in an equal matchup.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2010, 06:04 PM

Your making a wierd assumption that the mage is a human/elf, he can just as well be a troll and will as such have a quite high damage resistance pool especially if he actually has a armor spell sustained.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jun 23 2010, 06:06 PM

Actually, a fair comparison would be a mage with Improved Invisibility and Increased Reflexes.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 23 2010, 06:08 PM

Definitely agreed that there are fewer defenses, the game clearly wants to reward a diversified team that brings a mage for magic defense and a hacker/technomancer to stop tech or your team will be at a great disadvantage. IMO that's a good thing, makes for more fun than all troll cyborg gunslingers mowing everything down.

I'm just saying let's not pretend guns aren't excellent. Armor just happens to be something you buy rather than something a PC must provide.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 23 2010, 06:23 PM

Let's ALSO not pretend there aren't numerous tech camo and IP equivalents, ok? And ultrasound defeats Invis more effectively than astral perception would defeat camo, since there's no drawback to running the ultrasound whatsoever. Are we going to have the mage sustaining Stealth now too? At least there's nothing the mage can do about his scent =P

Seriously folks, you're not even arguing against anyone by saying "the mage can do many things". Everyone can do many things. The whole point is "when shot in the face with a decent firearm a Mage will die in one IP". The game is a world of glass cannons.

Posted by: Starmage21 Jun 23 2010, 06:30 PM

this

Posted by: Doc Chase Jun 23 2010, 06:34 PM

And how wonderful that is. The idea behind a system like SR's is not to get shot.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jun 23 2010, 06:42 PM

I am not saying that there aren't tech equivalents (and I won't go into the whole stealth/astral debate) but the average starting mage will have Improved Invisibility and Reflexes - they probably won't be sustaining Armor, Barrier, or anything else that was listed. I was just saying that would be a more likely scenario.

The point is that the mage will rarely be shot in the face, but the street sam will often be hit by a spell. A good mage will beat a good street sam 9 times out of 10 unless you are just having an initiative roll off.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2010, 06:57 PM

If somethink is still alive after you have spent an IP shooting at them, your not using enought of a gun.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jun 23 2010, 06:57 PM

*Sigh* I should know better by now, but:

Firearms: Attacker rolls his pool. Defender rolls to Dodge. Defender rolls to soak.
Magic: Attacker rolls his pool. Defender rolls his stat.

The pool of dice the defender gets to put into play are going to look a lot like this:

Firearms: Reaction+Dodge+Armor+Body
Magic: Willpower

Now, I agree that from a DV point of view, the direct damage spells are similar to a lot of what you can pick up at Weapons World. I concede that the Drain mechanic (especially with the optional rules in play) means that the Mage can't wipe out an army the way a cybersam can.

However, I feel my fear of magic is not irrational because of the pools above. When I go up against a pack of mercs, I'm ready for it. I have spent a lot of money and installed a lot of upgrades to make sure I can hold my own in a firefight. When one of those guys in identical armor and gear chucks a stunball at me, I will get KO'd, because although the damage is similar to his buddies' small arms, my options for defense are, pardon my Elvish, piss-poor.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 23 2010, 06:57 PM

Well the situation another poster outlined was exactly that, a "one on one duel", which he contended the mage would always win, regardless of who goes first. I contend that it, in fact, is just an initiative roll off as you put it since both characters are packing crazy lethal capabilities.

I just don't understand the OP and most replies in this thread. In the situation the OP outlined that NPC could have thrown an explosive with the same result. And yet we get two pages of replies with people designing their personal system to "punish" direct damage spells? Why? IMO it's all balanced because everyone has that kind of incredibly potency for damage.

The only thing unbalanced is the availability of defenses since anti-gun defense is store bought and anti-magic defense is provided by a PC. But I think this was deliberately done by the developers as a team building mechanic so...?

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 23 2010, 07:03 PM

Yes, I make no claim to the contrary. But I imagine that the system is intentionally designed in that way so that teams have a Mage providing his Counterspell skill to that defensive dice pool.

If magic were just a different type of grenade/shotgun then it's pretty silly. By playing a mage you'd just be limiting your cyberware and bioware selections.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 23 2010, 07:06 PM

Right, so we all agree: magic is scary, harder to defend against, and requires active (instead of ubiquitous, store-bought) protection.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jun 23 2010, 07:07 PM

Glass cannons, geek the mage, consequences, and bullets cost 2 nuyen and everyone can get those.

Posted by: Gamer6432 Jun 23 2010, 07:15 PM

I'd also add that any mage who wants to live isn't going to make himself readily identifiable as such, they don't walk around in robes while carrying a staff. Mages can wear regular armor (which adds to their defense pool) and carry a gun (even if they're unable to hit the broad side of a barn with it).


And correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it in Shadowrun to cast a spell you don't need to utter an arcane phrase or do any arm/hand gestures, correct?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jun 23 2010, 07:16 PM

My friend, I share your feeling. Mages gotta die.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jun 23 2010, 07:24 PM

Not as simple as that, in a combat spell vs gun comparison:

Firearms: Reaction+Armor+Body + dodge (if you sacrifice your next action)
Magic: Willpower + Counterspelling (which can incude Conterspelling foci)

Firearms: Affected by cover
Magic: Affected by background count

Firearms: Armor>DV, P is now S
Magic: S is less drain than P

Firearms: DV is reduced by 1 per hit
Magic: DV is reduced by 1 per hit, and entirely negated if the resistance check equals or exceeds the number of hits the mage gets.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Jun 23 2010, 07:41 PM

Actually,
Firearms: if defender gets more hits on Reaction than attacker on offense => entirely negated, otherwise DV reduced by Body+Armor hits
Magic: if defender gets more hits on Willpower than attacker on offense => entirely negated.

Damage from direct combat spells is not reduced by hits. The base damage (force) either hits or it dosn't. The only variable part of the damage is if the Mage chooses to apply net hits to damage.

Against firearms the defender gets 2 opportunities to mitigate damage, against Magic you get 1.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2010, 08:01 PM

Noticing spell casting is a perception test with treshold of 6-force so spells of gorce 6 or more are very obvious.


In a game with no optional/house rules in play, the damage of aa direct combat spell is force+nethits so every hit defender gets does reduce damage.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jun 23 2010, 08:20 PM

Forgot:
Fire Arms: No limit to number of hits
Magic:Hits limited by force of spell

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 23 2010, 08:24 PM

<shrugs> Most of my characters, without outside help, can take more than a couple shots from firearms and keep on going. Unless I specifically build an anti-magic character, few of them can handle a single overcast Stunbolt, let alone a double cast one. Your mileage may vary.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2010, 08:25 PM

Unless your the luckiest person alive, thats not a problem that comes up often most likely never in case of overcasting spells around force 10.
And if you happen to actually get 10+ net hits on a force then spell, who cares they allready dead/unconcius from 20 points of damage.

Then the opposition just isn't using enought of a gun.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 23 2010, 08:30 PM

Well, if most of his characters are trolls or orks, that might do it as well. 15+ dice to resist and a Pain Editor get you pretty far in life. It's a lot easier to make a mundane character that can shrug off the brunt of a heavy pistol's damage than it is to build a mundo that can ignore mana bolts from a lowly 8 dice wage mage. Part of the problem is the simple fact that the latter has a pretty free hand when it comes to choosing his damage value whereas grunts are stuck with whatever equipment they have on hand, for good or ill.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 23 2010, 08:41 PM

I got here late, all the classics have come up.

Grenades: but they can be detected by machines and norms. Thus not nearly as cool as a dude who can blow up the world with his mind.
Optional rules: to mask the flaws in the system.
Freak rolls: For that one in a million that happens in every theoretical run.

Did I miss anything?

Suggestion: If Magic is powerful, play a Mage. This is exactly what my players have done. We have but one true mundane, thats is to say not magical or TM, and he is an Astral Hazing - Arcane Arresting Trauma Dampener + platelet factory abusing tank, protected by a great deal of Counterspelling.

Then I start throwing Mana Static at the players.

BlueMax

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 23 2010, 08:53 PM

Yeah, back when I mostly played rather than GM'd I once half-jokingly referred to the game as Mage: The Shadowrun due to all 6 of us wanting to be Awakened.

Posted by: Cheops Jun 23 2010, 09:10 PM

Anything a sam can do a mage can do as well.

Someone says that you can use a gun or a grenade. Well, nothing stops a mage from doing that.
Someone says that drones gank mages. Well, mages can use drones as well.
He can wear camo. He can wear the exact same security armor as the rest of his Red Samurai buddies.
He can take advantage of technology just as much as anyone else.

The street sam needs help smuggling his cyberwear around the city.
The street sam needs to go to extreme lengths to conceal his weapons.
The street sam can't instantly conjure bad-ass combat drones to his side. (they're bound by the laws of physics)
The street sam can't turn himself into a living radar that can sense everyone around him and what they are thinking.

There is nothing that any mundane can do that some sort of awakened character can't do better. (exception = TMs)

Good luck finding my mage when I nuke you from on high with my crow form's bad-ass invisible laser eye beams!!! Bwahahahaha.

Posted by: Cheops Jun 23 2010, 09:10 PM

Dangit! Twice in two days. Darn double posts.

Posted by: tagz Jun 23 2010, 09:14 PM

I see it as fairly reasonable right now.

Yes, magic is scary. So are guns, explosives, drowning, and dragons.

Magic has the advantage of bypassing most mundane defenses against it, leaving only another magical force to defend against it. The magician pays for this advantage with a quality, having to purchasing spells, and taking drain. Really, I only see the last one as more then a minor hindrance, but the others should be noted. Anyhow, they DO pay for the advantage they receive.

Guns have the advantage of being easier to get and plentiful. I don't always agree with Mäx, sometimes you don't need bigger guns, sometimes you just need more. A Sam can likely handle 5 groups of 4 grunts if he's got some cover, an automatic, and enough ammo. A mage will either have to target one at a time to keep drain low or hope that THIS group is the last one, and if it's not...

I think the biggest problem most groups and GMs have with magic is that they don't use the rules "surrounding" magic use enough. There are rules about tracking astral signatures and recognizing auras for a reason. Mental manipulation is obvious to the victim and the rules on noticing spellcasting make it fairly easy to spot the mage despite metatype or if he "looks like a hacker". All spells used in a crime are considered premeditated spell use. Sure, you don't hunt down runners for every little thing, but that doesn't mean the megas, the government, the LEOs, etc, won't keep files and records for any number of uses such as extortion, arresting you the moment you cross onto their territory, etc.

But finally, I don't think there is anything WRONG with saying magic is deadly and hard to defend against. It is. If you don't think it is it'll likely end up killing you.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jun 23 2010, 09:49 PM

And get cyberware.
And use electronic aids for targeting.
And functioning in a background count.
etc.

Posted by: Doc Chase Jun 23 2010, 09:52 PM

Operate in spaaaaaace.

Posted by: Cheops Jun 23 2010, 10:08 PM

Or just about any environment in Target: Wastelands. Touche!

Posted by: Gamer6432 Jun 23 2010, 10:21 PM

Any mage can use 'ware. Using Alpha grade bioware can yield some pretty good results with only a one point hit to your maximum Magic/Resonance attribute.
Glasses or goggles don't cost essence and can grant all the benefits of an Image Link, Smartlink, et all.
Mages can also learn metamagic abilities that allow them to effectively ignore Background Count around them

Posted by: cndblank Jun 23 2010, 11:17 PM

Magic is also effected by Cover.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 24 2010, 01:04 AM

Except that magicians have more tools for countering these modifiers than the Samurai does in many instances. Hell, a Magician can cast spells from around corners with a periscope, for god's sake!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 24 2010, 01:07 AM

Which they take a negative modifier for...

If appropriate modifiers are applied consistently, then magic does lose a lot of its "brokenness", as has been mentioned previously...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 24 2010, 01:08 AM

And that's why you get cybereyes.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 24 2010, 01:09 AM

But cybereyes do not negate all of your penalties though...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 24 2010, 01:13 AM

You don't need to negate all of the penalties. You need to negate enough to beat Willpower and the samurai is toast.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 24 2010, 01:34 AM

A mage only needs a magic 4 to have a force 8 spell up his sleeves at all times.

In previous editions I'd be saying the same thing. I've never cast a spell over force 6. In SR4 I rarely cast a spell below force 6. Heck the mage in the OPs example used powerball at force 8 which did what 7Pdrain. A magic 5 mage with stunball and sling force 9 stunballs for a measly 5P drain. Add in spirits and ridiculous versatility and mages seem to be playing with a marked deck.

Mages are the only character type in SR4 where I have to go out of my way not to be overly powerful when building the character. Usually if I just build a character they end up fine, mages with things like overcasting go from reasonable looking to overpowered just by how you play the character.

Oh and for those claiming grenades.

1 crap scatter rules.
2. the damage is reduced every meter from the blast point.
3. they get armor
4. The damage does not increase due to well placed throws shots, so 10P max and it is resisted down.

Yeah we can make it better for the sams by going with chemical weapons, but sams have to go to things like that to stay afloat with a basic vanilla mage.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 24 2010, 01:41 AM

And let's not get things twisted here: I am certainly not arguing that it's impossible to build a samurai that could kill the average magician. My problem with Magicians is that you can build one whose magic abilities are primarily built around doing support and legwork but as long as he has a decent spellcasting skill he can be pressed into service as an emergency artillery piece for the cost of learning Power Ball. That's a li'l... weird.

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 24 2010, 01:54 AM

Thats why I prefer to use DV=F instead of DV=F/2. It really helps to cut down on 'artillery mage syndrome'. The spells themselves remain powerful, but they certainly aren't thrown around haphazardly anymore. I rather like the Mage to be more of a support character, backing up the Street Sams and Phys Ads rather than standing on the front lines shoulder to shoulder with them.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 24 2010, 03:37 AM

Yup. That is one of my main issues with mages. You can make a fairly normal plane jane mage who looks balanced. Buy a couple spells and you are a kicking out heavy weapons damage.

I'm not sure I'd go with redcrows idea since it actually makes a large range of the support spells almost unavailable as well.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 24 2010, 03:46 AM

As I mentioned earlier, if you just get rid of overcasting (which was a goofy addition in 4th Edition anyway), almost all the problems disappear.

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Jun 24 2010, 03:50 AM

Then you lose the flavor of the mage managing to kill themselves through casting more than they can handle.

Of course, there's so many ways to mitigate drain now, I've never actually seen that happen out side of a novel or published game.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 24 2010, 03:54 AM

Yeah, lemme count how many times that's ever happened in a game I've played in. 0. Well, that was fast.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 24 2010, 06:17 AM

Well you should probaply also get rid of multicasting to if your doing that, becouse otherwise i just cast 2 or force 5 stunballs if i cant cast that one force12.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 24 2010, 06:28 AM

Or instead of getting rid of overcasting go back to earlier editions and pay for the force of the spell kind of like technomancers. You want a force 9 stun ball go for it, it costs 9 karma and is a hard spell to find and takes a really long time to research/learn. And the highest you can start with at char gen is 6 anyways. You'd still have the flavor of being able to take physical drain, but it would be uncommon just like in previous editions.

Posted by: Falanin Jun 24 2010, 07:20 AM

Note also that the force 8 spell from the OP loses none of it's damage potential all the way out to 8 meters range. I'm sorry, but your grenade just isn't going to have the same amount of killing power, given that it loses 1 DV every 1-2 meters, depending on grenade type. Likewise, don't the 4a rules say that you don't add extra hits to DV on grenades? Good luck killing anyone in armor with less than 2-3 grenades. Compare to spells, where the first one is quite often the last one needed...

Posted by: Traul Jun 24 2010, 10:28 AM

That is because the overcasting rule was poorly conceived: no matter how much wishful thinking is put in the books, overcasting does NOT inflict more drain. If you can soak 7S, you can soak 7P. There are even situations where overcasting is less damaging to the character than normal casting: with a highly damaged Stun monitor and a clean Physical monitor, the mage can be still standing after overcasting whereas he would have crashed to normal drain.

House-rule proposal: overcasting drain remains Stun, but it switches to Force + modifier instead of F/2 + modifier.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Jun 24 2010, 03:25 PM

Thats not a bad houserule at all.

Posted by: FireHand Jun 24 2010, 03:59 PM

Good golly, Miss Molly. Is magic really that much of a problem in your games? SR has always had the adage, "Geek the mage first," and it still holds! Yes, magic can be powerful, but I feel the system works as written currently. Do my mages overcast regularly? Yes, they do, but there are multipe times when the mage decides to back out of going further in the 'run because he/she is running low on physical boxes of health. Is there a metagaming side to balancing stun drain vs. physical? Sure there is, but then there is metagaming going on with just about every character archetype. I mean, during my last game session we had a troll with moderate armor who shrugged off a shotgun blast point blank to his chest. Ridiculous, sure... but it was awesome at the same time.

My point is that mages may seem powerful in their own context, but I very seriously doubt you could have a group of newbie mages get together and 'run very effectively. Most mages don't have the points to spend at char creation to make themselves physical or ranged combat gumbies, let alone be able to manipulate the matrix. And whereas a good powerball may be a scene ender, with the capping rules the way they are I don't see that as overbalancing things. From what I can see, my group relies on my mage to be able to put down a group of baddies... as long as the baddies are at range. Mages are great at range, but things quickly hit the fan if the mage suddenly is in melee. Sure, they can still sling stunbolts around, but suddenly the targets become individual (unless you really want to risk taking yourself and your group out with the baddies).

Additionallym there is the drain to keep in mind. When someone fires of a flechette shotgun for 9P against a flesh target, they don't even have to worry about recoil. The Mage has to worry about rolling badly for drain. My starting character (a mage) regularly comes away from even a quickie 'run with some damage from drain. When the 'run goes into moderate length, some of that damage is physical. My very first run with the mage resulted in 7 boxes of physical damage and 6 of stun at the end of the 'run... all of it from Drain. My teammates were pretty much unscathed...

Yes, mages can be powerful, but they only have a niche. The more experience (the more karma) a mage has the more opportunity he/she has to branch out and become adept at other things... but then the karma spent doesn't get spent on magical advances.

So, that being said... let the flame war begin. I know there's gonna be people who will go about disproving me with statistics and die rolls and even char builds. Have fun!

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 24 2010, 04:06 PM

Pretty irrelevant. Newbies are newbies for roughly a session or two. A game should be friendly to newcomers but if you want it to have any staying power at all then you should never, EVER plan around the idea that the players can be consistently expected to under perform.



Wait, people can close on a magician? My combat mages usually have Levitation and Detect Enemies. Between that and Control Thoughts and multi-casting Stun Bolts guys getting into point blank has never really been a problem for me. Even when it has come up, I was basically "reduced" to the same level of firepower as the Samurai, since firing grenades at point blank isn't such a hot idea either.


It's hard for me to feel bad for mages taking the odd point of drain now and again when you consider just how many attacks they can preempt with Mob Mind or an overcast alpha strike.



Yeah, but that niche is summoning, counterspelling, spellcasting and Astral recon/tracking. That's a hell of a niche when you consider what you can get out of Task & Spirits of Man and the right spell selection. You could literally eliminate all combat spells and remove overcasting and Magicians would still be a viable archetype since they have access to effects that either have no parallel or at least stack with mundane options, such as Illusions, Heal and Mind Control. Mind you, I don't think it'd really be a good idea, since there's a lot of history behind the combat mage concept and thematically such spells have value to the game beyond mere mechanics. But I do think it demonstrates how magicians are closer to being a bit too strong than they are to being too narrow.

Posted by: FireHand Jun 24 2010, 04:15 PM

So, you're saying that a group of experienced mages can roll through their town and own it? Sure, I agree that mages with the appropriate karma builds can probably satisfy most every niche there is to be held, but at what cost to themselves? That mage who decides he needs to be the group's melee tank, so he focusses on the physical--how well-equipped will he be to take out that group shooting at him from 100 yards away? Or what about the mage who decides his group needs a hacker? After he becomes a sufficiently good hacker, does he have anything left to improve his mage abilities?

Mages themselves are karma sinks (I'd argue they're the most karma-centric archetypes in the game, though I could be wrong there...). When they start spreading themselves out with karma builds, it becomes that much more difficult to improve their own native powers. Can they be effective with tangental karma builds? Sure. But will they be able to take on that powerful wizard baddie when they come upon him/her? I'd say they'd be at a disadvantage.

Posted by: FireHand Jun 24 2010, 04:19 PM

The majority of my 'runs don't happen outdoors. They're usually in confined quarters: a hallway, or a room. Levitating doesn't work in these situations. Now, outdoors, I'd say that's a great idea... but then, since most mages are sorta shy of strong Body or armor, a usual tactic is to use the other char's as shields or cover. If you levitate away, I'm really surprised your baddies don't have the ability to then focus all of their gunfire on you.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 24 2010, 04:29 PM

Nope.


And shadowrun isn't D&D. You don't need a physical tank, and there's really rather few ways of making sure the GM obligingly shoots at the guy who has the most armor anyway short of him trying to solo the fight. If you want fodder, get a drone or summon a big enough spirit. As far as the Levitate thing goes, you can always combine it with Invisibility and in any case it owns the hell out of critters without ranged attacks and allows you to bypass a lot of physical obstacles. It's really quite versatile even if it's not always a perfect solution. Which, really, kind of describes Magicians in general.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jun 24 2010, 04:32 PM

Spells are only so strong as the side using them. I had a ganger do 16P worth of damage to a player from a hunting rifle (without magical suppport). While the party had 2 mages.

I have yet to feel the need to balance out mages by messing with RAW (which I hate doing-as the solution often does as much damage as it repairs). Some RP/Adventure design ways to handle mages:

1. To many targets
2. Back ground count
3. Remember to geek the mage first
4. Snipers
5. Drones, lots of drones.
6. Matrix issues anyone?
7. Opposing mages
8. Higher inititive street sams.
9. Spirits with counterspelling
10. Line of sight shennanigans

Posted by: Cheops Jun 24 2010, 04:41 PM

About as effective as the street sam who puts all his eggs into the melee basket. Except the mage can still summon a spirit to help him, which even at F3 is usually still pretty good in close combat. In general Melee is a trap option in SR regardless -- anyone is sub-optimal for focusing on it and is usually doing so for concept reasons. (Edit: oops forgot the options of Shapechange and Possession traditions that make the mage better at melee than the street sam but can still also blast at 100 yards with a 3 bp Stunbolt)



Yes actually. It is very cheap to be a hacker in SR4. You won't be an uber optimized spell slinger with 20 dice to cast and 11 dice for drain but you'll probably still have 12-14 dice to cast and about 8-10 for drain. It costs 2 bp for a top of the line deck, 40 bp for 2 skill groups, and about 20 bp for programs. 15 for mage, 30 for magic 4, 32 for Spellcasting 4 and Summoning 4, 5 for a mentor spirit, and 12 for a spellcasting focus. That gives our Hacker/Mage dice pools of Hacking stuff 6-8, Spellcasting 8-13, Summoning 8-10 for 156 bps.

Not optimal but still very good in all categories. He'd also have a lot more options than the hacker who is still stuck with the same mundane options that the mage can also use.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 24 2010, 04:48 PM

I made a Mystic Adept corporate Spider once who nearly caused a TPK by backing up his drones and Sec team with a big Plant Spirit providing Magical Guard.

Posted by: Mongoose Jun 24 2010, 06:35 PM

Because they can affect people you can't see. If you drop an area effect indirect centered in the air just past the top of a barricade, you can get the guys hiding behind the barricade, and they get no cover. Direct spell wouldn't have any effect on them, unless you can see them, and even then you'd have mods for visibility (cover). Meanwhile, those guys are lobbing grenades over the barricade, radioing for help, zeroing in drones, calling up spirits...
For non area effect spells, there's less utility, though secondary effects (fire, acid, electricity) can still be nice.
They can also be handy vs drones / vehicles; no need to whip out 5 successes to have any effect at all. And again, with a secondary effect (typically electricity for vehicles, though acid can also be good) it can do more than simple damage.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 24 2010, 06:46 PM

The only ones which are dealing with the mage, and not the party are
2, Half of 9 and 10

10 is exactly <pistol whip> Shenanigans is the correct word. Playing "Chase the modifier" or "Pop goes the weasel" can tire on some players.
The same goes for Background Count. If its used everywhere, you may as well say "Every mage has 2 less Magic" , where two represents a random rank of background count.

So really, its "Make more badguys to overcome the mage" or "Take magic out of the game" , that is offered in these types of lists.

BlueMax

Posted by: SpellBinder Jun 24 2010, 10:26 PM

One guy I know is running close to that for his runs, feeling that F/2 is too weak to curb rampant spellcasting; overcasting still causes Physical damage AFAIK. Another veteran SR player I know (and a bigger fan of SR3) thinks it's a great idea to knock the F/2 to F instead.

Posted by: FireHand Jun 24 2010, 10:47 PM

Well, as much as I hate this idea and think it's complete paranoia (I still don't see why folks think mages are too powerful), as someone with a scientific mind I would love to see some testing done on this F/2 vs. F idea. Keeping in mind this is a game... in playtesting F + Modifier, is the mage fun to play anymore? Is someone planning on playtesting this out?

Posted by: Mongoose Jun 24 2010, 10:57 PM

Or you could have overcasting do physical AND stun damage equal to drain... with each success only offsetting one box of either (one box on either track, casters choice).

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Jun 25 2010, 12:59 AM

When SR4 first came out, I played it for a long time with straight Force+Modifier for drain, no divided by 2. I did it as a player, and as a GM. The mages were a lot more careful with what they did, and a lot less likely to go straight to fireballs and the like. Centering was the first metamagic taken, foci were used for drain, and spells were used when they were needed, not at a whim. Magic was dangerous again.

Good times, good times.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 25 2010, 01:01 AM

Fist, please forgive me for correcting your post.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 25 2010, 01:54 AM

With the normal drain rules I do tend to cast/summon constantly as a Magician, particularly as a cybered hermetic. 12 dice to soak and a Trauma damper can spoil you pretty quick.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 02:56 AM

I sincerely hope I never play with any of you "magic fascists". Why shouldn't a Magician be casting constantly? That's the whole point of the character concept, he's a spellcaster. You might as well impose some insane penalties on gun bunnies and street samurai so they can't use their guns and melee "on a whim" as well, after all firefights and close quarters combat need to be made dangerous again. Right?

Railing against magic is just a sign of an unimaginative GM, there are tons of examples of magical security, especially in Street Magic. Any lowly corporate office could have a wage mage in the security department who comes by every other month and sets up a gauntlet of multiple types of wards and patrolling spirits, when signs of magic are detected various levels of response could be deployed, such a Drones (the direct damage spells you hate so much must first overcome their Object Resistance, which the table merely lists as "6+" so use your discretion) or a wage mage miles away sending a spirit out on a remote service to magical guard duty in response to a SOS.

You don't need to have every guard patrol involve a mage providing dedicated counterspell support, just use your heads and think about what cost effective precautions would be taken. Otherwise maybe you should just play a cyberpunk RPG without magic. Punishing your players for not choosing to play the type of character whose mechanics you arbitrarily prefer is ridiculous. Magic is no more over the top lethal than anything else in this game, and fucking with it because you don't like it and/or are lazy just ruins other people's fun in the name of your ego.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 25 2010, 03:03 AM

If its an attack on a group of people, is it a personal attack?

Worst of all I agree, the spellcaster should be slinging spells. Some of us however get tired of the spellcaster knocking out two Citymasters a turn. And not even using specialized spells.

While your examples carry some validity for a well funded corporate facility, thats only one class of location in the game.

And no, I will not attribute something derogatory your direction.

BlueMax

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 25 2010, 03:07 AM

There's a difference between have access to powerful magic, and using it constantly. If you don't know why casting constantly is a problem, there isn't much anyone can say to explain it. Even the bunnies use up ammo.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 03:18 AM

I said that doubling the drain on spells because you feel like it is lazy GMing, and I stand by that assertion. If you consider that a personal attack I don't know what to tell you.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 25 2010, 03:31 AM

In fairness, that's not the only thing you said. I think I saw the word 'fascist', as well.

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Jun 25 2010, 03:32 AM

Wow, cool man. Not only are you throwing about some nice insults and blanket "personal attacks", but you also threw it out at a moderator. Very nice. Good form.

Guns are regulated. They're illegal and easy to spot. They also run out of ammo. They also have a set damage value. Oh, and you can wear armor. Hard to do against a mana bolt. Oh yeah, and just about every other guy can get a gun and shoot back. Sorry for the snarky tone, but fascists get that way.


There's a lot you can do with magical security and countermeasures, sure. You're assuming that's the only place shadowruns take place.


No, its a matter of preference. I'm not right. Neither are you. It's just opinions.

Posted by: Critias Jun 25 2010, 03:48 AM

Hahahahah! Magic fascists.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 03:50 AM

I recommend some of you buy a dictionary, "magic fascists" was in quotes for a reason, I wasn't saying you thought Benito Mussolini was a great leader I was referring to this aspect of fascism:

And certain GMs are like that about their pet causes, say their apparent stance towards magic at their table.



And yet despite all that they still can drop grunts in a heartbeat and they (and their ammo) barely cost anything. It's a game of glass cannons, why do you hate this particular one?!



Maybe those gangers live in a warehouse with a background count that drops your caster's magic a point or two and makes things a pain all night.



And in my opinion the changes you all propose reduce fun for no apparent reason. Why not have people manage the heat buildup of their guns? It's so realistic and if they "overshoot" you could have their LMG's barrel melt.

Posted by: Critias Jun 25 2010, 04:21 AM

What if you double it because it's an optional rule, suggested right there in the rulebook?

Posted by: toturi Jun 25 2010, 04:29 AM

Well, the mages have to constantly resist Drain if they keep casting spells. Sure, most of the time, Drain isn't an issue if the mage has enough Drain resistance but the more they roll, the more they risk not resisting the Drain completely.

If your mage can constantly cast powerful spells and soak the Drain, then the player must have designed his character to do so. If he hadn't want his character to be able to do so, the character wouldn't be likely to be able to do so.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 25 2010, 04:36 AM

Yeah, see, I don't actually have much of a problem with the magic rules. Like Toturi, it doesn't particularly bother me a lot of the time when a character is capable of doing something outside the bounds of other characters or archetypes. I just think that drain as a limiting factor is largely a polite fiction in regards to spellcasting.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 04:41 AM

Even if it were an optional rule, it's still a bad and lazy idea. But FYI I just checked SR4A and SM and neither has this optional rule. SR4A has Simplifying Spell Drain which still use F/2, it just has you precalculate the values for max normal force and modify from there to speed up gameflow. Street Magic has Optional Rule: Acquiring Gaesa During Play, Optional Rule: Learning Metamagic, Optional Rule: Aid Enchanting, Optional Rule: Exotic Reagent Requisites and Optional Rule: Corps Cadavres and Living Dolls.

I even tried searching for every instance of the word "drain" but that quickly grew tiresome and I started skimming, let me know the book and page number if I missed it. While there are certainly some (IMO) bad optional rules suggested in the rulebook since they are, of course, just semi-popular houserules not considered good enough to be part of the core gameplay, I would be genuinely surprised if this was one of them.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 25 2010, 05:09 AM

Toturi, it's hardly a question of the player wanting to be able to constantly cast powerful spells. Obviously, they'd want that.

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Jun 25 2010, 05:11 AM

It's a simple fix:If you don't like it, don't use it. That's the point of this thread. Someone has a problem with the way it is. We proposed some solutions. If you don't like them, don't use them. That's what you should do.

What you shouldn't do is go railing off on how everyone else is wrong and you're right because you feel 'x'. That's cool. Feel 'x'. Feel 'XYZ'. Don't come in here saying that the collective posters on the thread are all wrong and fascists (which is generally accepted as at least an impolite thing to say to a person) because they don't do or think the way you do.
*snip*


Goes both ways.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 25 2010, 05:23 AM

There's this idea out there. It's called "game balance." It's an obscure, rarely mentioned idea, I know... but it does indeed exist. And under this idea -- a crazy notion though it may be -- is the concept of making sure the primary options in a game are relatively balanced amongst each other. Unfortunately, magic isn't very well balanced, particularly against the amount of resistance a target can muster against it. There's two major ways of correcting for that imbalance; either giving defenders more ways to resist those types of attacks, or reining in the attacker so that he has to think twice before going all out.

Personally, I think it's a far better idea to go with the former than the latter. Magic is supposed to be strong and powerful and feared. When you can barely match a 35-nuyen grenade without causing major arteries in your body to burst, that's a BadThing™. If you just allow people to resist those attacks a bit better, however, you get an end result where magic is still as potent as it should be, but people can actually have a chance of surviving the assault. There is no magical Armored Jacket or Magic Dodge skills in the game. And that's where the problem lies.

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Jun 25 2010, 05:28 AM

Not any more *Goodbye spell locked mana barrier*

Posted by: FireHand Jun 25 2010, 06:14 AM

Okay, it's late and I'm tired, so if this doesn't make sense, chalk it up to fatigue. But what is the difference between magic that you cannot defend against and a narcojet pistol? With the pistol, if the needle penetrates the armor you get stuck with 10S. Same with a stunball... if you don't resist the casting, you take the damage.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 06:17 AM

Well "magic dodge" is counterspelling and "magic armor" is "be a highly processed object". I'm saying that PCs using magic against NPCs is balanced, the Mage may be throwing out combat spells while his menagerie of spirits rampages about but that's cool, this is a game where the other characters have enough firepower to solo a platoon or are almost-cyborg ninja assassin or control a small army of robotic death machines. Despite all this over the top lethality can you still challenge your players? Certainly, many tools have been explicitly created towards that end. If security is being hammered by a spellcaster maybe the standard operating procedure is to pump FAB III into the room and dispatch the drones. There are options to let players have their fun, feel powerful and yet still have proper, well thought out in game defenses for such scenarios.

I completely agree that NPC vs. PC magic is very powerful, even with counterspelling if you have a Mage NPC with 6 magic say "Oh what the hell" and overcast a Force 12 Powerball, it would be dangerous and you would have no real defense. But there are so many other things that are in the same category, at the very least:
- Snipers. Firing from long distances in unseen positions and easily dropping characters with their high powered rifles, ammunition and aim. It's perfectly realistic and there's zero defense against it. You might as well say "As you're running to your vehicle a sniper drops you" because the dice will be a formality.
- Explosives. With the abundance, quality and "chunky salsa" there's any number of "and that drone that flew through your fire into your midst was a kamikaze full of explosives" or "the room was rigged to explode if the alarm was triggered". TPK

At least you can geek the mage.

I just don't understand what is supposedly so unbalanced here. All character styles are powerful. As the GM you can defend against them all with the tools provided. All those same player character abilities when turned against the players are FAR too effective, and it's up to you to refrain from murdering everyone just because you can. Are your games featuring some kind of player vs. player combat? Because as addressed earlier that's also a matter of "who wins initiative". So I don't get it, why not let the mage play like a mage?



It's a forum, the whole point is discussion. I'm going to tell the OP I think his problem is a non-issue. I'm going to tell everyone who agrees with him that, in my opinion, they're wrong and the game is fine. I eagerly await counter-arguments, posit theories, concede points or provide new arguments. I think you're wrong and I'd like you to explain your reasoning, I want to understand why you think the way you do. Currently all I'm seeing is a lot of vague "magic SHOULD be dangerous!" that seems to be typical tyrannical GM prejudice fucking with mechanics. There's been no serious reason provided what-so-ever, everyone agrees that there's no magical defense that a player can independently acquire, and even with counterspelling they're nowhere as protected as when they twink out their 20+/20+ armor builds. Why does that mean a PC playing a Mage shouldn't be able to be amazing in combat? Everyone else can. Trying to make a caster refrain from casting seems to me to be as balanced as trying to force the gun bunny from shooting his guns, and for no other reason than "I don't like it".

Oh and if you don't like it? Don't reply. What you shouldn't do is try to tell me that I can't say that someone is wrong. That's the "suppressing opposition and criticism", btw. What I'm doing is a little thing called "debate and discourse".

P.S. If an analogy written in air quotes truly offended you then I pity you.

Posted by: FireHand Jun 25 2010, 06:31 AM

Lanlaorn, let me first start by saying that if you read my previous posts you'll realize I agree with you fairly completely. I see no reason to nerf mages or the system as written. That being said, I think the issue some of the other folks on this board has had with you isn't your content, but your tone. Swearing isn't called for and, although you are absolutely correct in its definition, using the word "fascist" was probably unwise as it does have a certain social negative quality. It would be like me calling someone ignorant: by its very definition it simply means, "lacking in knowledge or training," (a fairly neutral word in and of itself) however socially most people take it to mean "stupid."

I like your arguments, however I'd caution you (as well as anyone who may get heated on this board) to not fall to the easy temption of social callousness the annonymity of this board offers.

Posted by: Critias Jun 25 2010, 06:57 AM

Mostly that with a Narcoject you can attempt a dodge against the initial attack, the needle has to penetrate armor, and you get to make a Toxic Resistance test against that damage.

With a Stunball, there's no dodge attempt, there's no armor that can help you, and then there's no damage resistance test. You and all your buddies match a single attribute against a mage's favorite attribute plus the mage's favorite skill, and then he stabs you all in the brain with his ego.

Now, do I think the problem is as bad as some folks make it out to be? Not in the slightest. In fact, I think recent rules have gone a long way towards helping the issue, and I can fairly say that in-character I've never felt overwhelmingly threatened by an enemy mage, in any edition of the game (if they were sustaining a slew of defensive spells, their offense doesn't hurt so much...and if they weren't, I shot them in the face until they were dead).

For those that do have issues balancing their game, however, a frustrated GM should be able to come to an internet message board and ask for advice without being called a fascist.


If you can't see the irony in typing those lines of text that close to one another, I really don't know what to say.

edit to add: For those that are continually poo-poo'ing the "using magic should be dangerous" thing, I'm just genuinely curious here, but how long have you been playing the game? This isn't some silly e-peen thing, of "I've been playing longer than you have, so I know better!" or some sort of post-count contest, I'm just really wondering when you were introduced to the game. Personally, I know a lot of my "casting spells should kick your ass" mentality is a holdover from previous editions, where it really did take a whole lot out of a mage to sling mojo very often, at least until you snagged Centering or a good couple of Foci to ease the pressure a bit. I feel like that's not the case so much in 4th Edition any more, so it seems like folks that are just getting into the game more recently may not have the same emotional holdover towards the good ol' days of passing out after a good Fireball.

Posted by: IKerensky Jun 25 2010, 07:03 AM

Obviously there is another problem in assessing Magic power :

What the GM expect it to be at their table. Reading the full thread (that quickly derailed as if you carefully read my first post you will see that my comment was "Magic is strong, did I miss something", definitely not a call for nerf of anguish cry for overpower, just a basic constat ) I think there is basically 2 kind of people talking here :

1- Magic is powerfull, and it should be that way with no need to any modification.

2- Magic is powerfull, but it need additionnal defense or cost because currently some spells are quite over what the other players or the opposition can sustain.

Interestingly the premise is the same and everyone agree on it.

More interestingly is that in my original example it was the PLAYERS that were wipped out by a single and basic NPCs wich make me think if there is something wrong in my ruling (and it was, in part).

There is definitely some gray areas in the spell definition: how could something be direct then area ? I need to be able to see anyone into the spell area or not ?

The players were careless and not used to fighting magic user, but I still had to cheat on them because I said the ork blow his mind with the casting while in fact he did survive. This basic NPC overcast twice in a row and survive quite neatly and with his Energy Condition Monitor unscatted.

I thing the people that dont feel that changes are not needed in the way magic behave (specifically Drain and Overcast) should still admit that Magic have advantage over other Combat system (basically no armor, and lower resistance roll, anyway to defeat magic usually defeat other methods too) but this is fine for them.

The people that feel it need change should admit Magic work correctly now and isn't too powerfull, it is just lacking enough drawback or cost in their opinion.

IMDNSHO, I feel magic is too strong too easily, a bit like my opinion on wireless Matrix, that doesnt go with the idea I have on Magician feed from the novels and sourcebook. I think the magician could cast a lots of their smaller spells at no cost, and only suffer drain from bigger spell (bigger not massively overpowered). I think that when a magician try to cast a spell largely above his level he put his very own life into it (sustaining it by Life Magic) wich is corroborated by the way magic work (Great Ghost Dance). Every time I read a magician ressort to Overcasting it basically take him out of play and often nearing death.

This isn't really what I get from the current rules, Phys Drain from overpowered spells doesnt exactly replicate massive exhaustion and I think it need tweakings (some E Drain should be added by example). The way Drain is mitigated now make it too easy to control/expect/sustain, you now what you will face and handle, you are not just pourring everything you have and pray.

So in conclusion :

I am fine with the current spellcasting power. I feel the standard drain is basically OK. I feel there need to be harder/different rules on Drain from Overpowered spells.


P.S. Calling a GM a Fascist is very rude, unpolite and silly. Of course a GM is some kind of autoritarian and dictatorial figure, he is the one in charge of the rules and making all the decision about what is or not possible into the game and the world he is creating. You cant expect a gaming session to work as a Democracy, because with one vote each I fear the players would hardly ever encounter any opposition nor trouble...

Posted by: toturi Jun 25 2010, 07:23 AM

Can you please tell me which of the canon stories (English fiction, I can't read German) does this happen?

Posted by: FireHand Jun 25 2010, 07:28 AM

Here's a wacky idea... what if instead of net hits increasing the DV of the spell, the DV was simply the Force the spell was cast at? It would certainly encourage more overcasting, but then that means more potential for a mage geeking himself!

Posted by: IKerensky Jun 25 2010, 07:36 AM

I am currently reading 2XS, in wich the Elvish magician basically burn himself to shoot out the Bug Spirit in the first fight, he drop unconsious but is still alive. It was the only spell he casted of all the fight.

In "Choose Your Ennemies Carefully" last fight Hart goes very close to die, but she use other magic before, same for Hart and Sam's Sister in "Find Your Own Truth".

In Novels nearly everytime a Magician cast a spell he suffer from obvious drain, the drain suffered being directly in touch with the spell power, combat spell seeming far more draining that basically utilitarian ones.

Of courses thoses novels are back from SR1 era, but it is what I expect at my gaming table. Someone talk about a Glass Cannon and I think Mages should be just that : Tremendous power in very vulnerable package with the potential to very hurt themselves when ressorting to maximum power.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 08:10 AM

In my opinion as long as you refrain from ad homiem tactics then it's perfectly polite. I didn't say anyone was an idiot for believing what they did, just that I'm not a fan of the stereotypical arbitrary houserules GM that's as much a RPG persona as the min/maxing powergamer.



No, I'm saying GMs that wield their houserules with an iron fist based on their whims were the "fascists". Let me know which part isn't analogous.



Do I really need to specify "don't reply telling me to shut up"? Because I'd love a reply that didn't consist of "lol you said 'fascist', not cool dude, that has negative connotations".



You're probably correct with this theory, I've literally only been playing for weeks. We played a few sessions to get a feel for the mechanics where I played a Street Samurai and now going for a real campaign and I'm playing a Mage. While I love the Mage for it's versatility as I'm operating as the team medic with a high Logic (hermetic mage) and the Heal spell, carrying lots of utility and support buffs with spells like Levitate, Influence, Imp Invis, Armor etc. and still able to hold my own in a fight with Stunbolt, etc. But that Sammy I made? That was a combat monster and I probably didn't even min/max it correctly, 4 cyberlimbs and some martial arts left me with extremely high armor, tons of physical condition boxes
and called shot "kicks to the face" annihilating anyone, even pistol shots from my humble Preds were incredibly potent simply thanks to the high agility. So yes I have a high dice pool for my Stunbolt/Powerbolt and can cast it safely even at relatively high levels of Force, and it's remarkably effective. But so what? Everyone's a badass it's just a matter of what style badass you want to be. I didn't really feel like my gymnastic cyber skating kickboxing waif was any less a potent character than my booksmart reserved Combat/Manipulation Mage.

I literally cannot understand a proposal like "turn F/2 into F" as that would leave me taking complex actions for less than pistol damage or ramping up the damage to what everyone else was doing at the cost of giant fractions of my health. Why?

Posted by: Blade Jun 25 2010, 08:33 AM

I remember having trouble with my shaman in SR2, but the GM wasn't using the magic dice pool so I don't know how it really was. But in SR3, most spellslingers I've seen could cast most spells all day long without getting more than a L wound (which the most munchkinized PC ignored thanks to a trauma dumper).

Posted by: Traul Jun 25 2010, 09:31 AM

Short answer: the rules. Show me another example where the attacker rolls 2 stats and the defender only 1. Counterspelling should not have been factored as part of the main spell defense dice pool, because it means you cannot defend against Magic without a mage on your side. This is bad for the game, see my explanation after.



To add a bit to this,I think the differences between SR3 and SR4 archetypes have a big influence here. For thos who don't know: in SR3, gunbunnies NEEDED a smartgun, and the smartgun did not work without an implanted smartlink in the middle brain. Cyberdecks (the equivalent of commlinks) costed several hundred thousands Nuyen. Riggers needed a VCR (Vehicle Control Rig) implant with the same Essence cost as Wired Reflexes. This was a specialist game: no matter what path you chose, you had to invest too much in it to digress. Were mages more or less powerful in SR3? I don't know, and I don't care, because the mage needed the rest of the team to watch his back as they needed him.

Now in SR4, smartlinks don't have to be implanted anymore, so anybody can shoot. Commlinks and programs are dirt cheap and the VCR disappeared, so anybody can hack and rig. Of course not with 20+ dice, but 8-10 are enough more often than not, and Edge is there when you need it. On the other hand, everyone falls to magic unless they have Counterspelling available. This makes the mage the only mandatory member of any team, and this is bad for everybody around the table except the mage: nobody wants to play a mere sideshow.



Not just dealing damage. Also flying, healing, mind controling, stealthing, calling expendable buddies out of thin air,... Combat is just one of the areas of magic, it just so happens that it is also the area of expertise of other archetypes. One could reverse the question: why should the mage claim to just as efficient in combat as a specialist who spent half his points in it, and be able to do so much more aside?

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Jun 25 2010, 09:32 AM

A little late, but whatever.

Lets try this again.

Firearms:

• Samurai rolls Attack Test. Target rolls Defense Test. Defender rolls Resistance Test.
• Samurai rolls Attack Test. Target rolls Defense Test. Defender rolls Resistance Test.

Magic:

• Magician rolls Spellcasting Test. Target rolls Defense Test. Magician rolls Drain Resistance Test.

Magic has Overcasting.
Firearms have Burst / Full Auto fire.


Resource cost:
15: Magician quality
40: Magic 5
15: x5 Spells

vs

30: Augmentation & firearm.

Skill costs are roughly comparable.




Who wins in a straight fight depends entirely on who acts first - ~70/30 in favor of the samurai.
Who wins in an unbalanced fight depends entirely on who acts first - in favor of the samurai.


Magic is indeed powerful. Direct Combat spells are, in fact, overpowered Rules as Written. Direct Combat spells are not, in fact, as powerful as people seem to think; their power comes from the lack of a Resistance test, and is not so extreme as to make any true impact on gameplay - it is simply noticable because it stands out. The only reason I included an alteration to how Direct Combat spells work in my House Errata (which is built around balancing the game) is to streamline the system - not because they needed to be rebalanced.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jun 25 2010, 09:38 AM

A well geared Rigger can ruin anybody's party, so long as he can get an invite.

Can a mage can fire 5 long bursts from a GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon in a single 3 second pass?

You want a mage killer? If you leverage the tech correctly, you can build a rigger that kills whole cities.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Jun 25 2010, 09:45 AM

No, they don't. I have made characters lacking any specialized magical defense that are easily capable of defending against & taking out magicians. There are a few ways to do so.


I have played in games where the magician is the sideshow. I have played in games where a magician is redundant &/or unnecessary. I have never played in a game where the spellcaster overshadows the entire team. Such magical characters are almost entirely limited to summoners, and even then often require heavy rules abuse, drugs, &/or augmentation.


They don't. My samurai or bioadept builds always outclass the magician in combat potential - including those that specialize in combat magic.

Posted by: Traul Jun 25 2010, 09:52 AM

Please do share

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 25 2010, 12:57 PM

Unless it's going to just be what we've already read 6 times.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jun 25 2010, 01:37 PM

Well, what I think is at issue is the fact that drain seems to be a no brainer. But that has alot to do with the build of the NPC's and PC's. With 400 BP you can build up to shrug off most drain.
I mean a force 8 wreck spell, (basicall a powerbolt that is specific to vehicles) causes 5P damage to the caster. So in theory the caster needs 15 dice to shrug it all off. Getting 12 dice is difficult, but not impossible at 400 BP. So more than likely you will be taking 1P of damage.

Does this balance mages vs gun bunnies? That is a matter of opinion. The fact that mooks can be blasted by the truckload with no drain--not much different than if the street sam went at them.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 25 2010, 03:05 PM

Sadly, close combat can really only hold its own with combat magic if the GM decides that none of the NPCs can't fight their way out of a paper sack and/or never use Full Defense vs. Melee. It's simple math, really. Full Defense vs. melee is Reaction+Skill+Skill and attacking is Agility+Skill. Combat spells, by contrast is Magic+Skill vs. Attritibute+Counter Spelling, and most characters won't have counterspelling. Further, I would argue that not every character is a bad ass. You can build a utility mage who also can toss around Force 8 Stunbolts quite safely with nothing but the spellcasting skills they already have and the price of the spell. A Technomancer, Adept or a Hacker, on the other hand, would need a firearm skill and the Agility to back it up or at least have to figure out a way to sneak a drone in with them. Ultimately, what bothers me about magicians isn't how much firepower they bring to the table so much as it is how little they sacrifice for it, which hits me as a bit off given how hard magic is to defend against.

Posted by: HeckfyEx Jun 25 2010, 03:39 PM

Willpower 5, Tradition stat of 5 and a fetish will get you those 12 dice. If RC is available then hermetics can get 15 dice by adding to the mix Cerebral Booster 3 and Restricted Gear.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 25 2010, 03:59 PM

Sad, but that is an actual in game example.

Mages can and do effectively pull out Gauss Rifle level attacks with a much bigger battery pack.

While your Sam might have that same weapon or a canon he isn't carrying it most places. And then the mage can turn people invisible, levitate, heal, summon spirits for combat, concealment, movement etc.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jun 25 2010, 04:09 PM

I'd check that player's dice & charsheet calculations if I was you. OR4+, and still getting enough hits to overcome the 16 Body? (Or 16 Body + 20 armor for indirect?)



And the sammy can have high willpower, astral hazing and/or arcane arrestor. Funny how when the odds get stacked on one side, it comes out ahead, eh?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 25 2010, 04:18 PM

Since I was the mage in question, I'll put up the stats.

Magic 6, spell casting 6, power focus 4, specialization combat spells, mentor dragon slayer. 20 dice.

Oh and a sustaining focus for 4 actions a turn. All that was at char gen. At the citymaster incident he was a grade 2 initiate with masking and extended masking but otherwise the same.

Powerbolts 4 of em. Average 6-7 hits a turn which made my force 9 powerbolts go to 11 damage, 2 shots and a citymaster blows. Though in the specific case where it occurred I got 8 hits on the first spell and 9 on the first spell at the 2nd citymaster. Lucky rolls what can I say.


On a side note,we were trying to build powerful characters for a specific reason. Normally my mages aren't quite that specialized in magic. Though given the breadth of spells and spirit powers it did not seem to hamper my versatility too much.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 25 2010, 04:28 PM

Yeah, that's why I've never been a big fan of Sensitive System, especially on Hermetics. Taking advantage of essence reductions for mixing and matching is quite strong. Reaction Enhancer 1, Cybereyes 3, Cerebral Booster 2 and a Trauma Damper will put you back exactly 1 essence. Not a bad deal for nuyen progression.


Oh, and for the record, non-living objects targeted by a Direct Spell do not get a Resistance Test, so the 16 Body doesn't do any good. A direct spell vs. a non-living target is just a treated as a Success Test by the caster with Object Resistance serving as the Threshold, with net hits serving to jack up the damage. So why yes, it IS just as easy to start doing raw damage to a Citymaster as it is to a Steel Lynx, and in both cases it's actually somewhat easier than Power Bolting down a big troll (which is why you keep Stun or Mana Bolt around). Direct Combat Spells are stupid like that, hence the topic.

Posted by: Cheops Jun 25 2010, 04:49 PM

Well said. In some ways magic seems cheaper than technology in SR4.

Someone up thread mentioned going back to the SR3 rules for Force and learning. I think I might do that for my upcoming game (makes it closer to ED style magic too). Not being able to increase the force willy-nilly may go a long way towards fixing things. Also makes the mage and TM closer rules wise. Maybe give both a number of free force/complex forms equal to Willpower or Logic.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jun 25 2010, 05:22 PM

Hmm...20R and 16R availablilty items costing 140,000:nuyen: at chargen? Tricky - 30 of your max 35 positive quality points right there?
Over 150 bp for one stat + one skill + a few toys.

Even so, with those kind of rolls, a sammy could have pulled the same thing off (2 shots per pass, destroying 2 vehicles) and with much less cash & fewer bp spent. AND without splitting his dice pool.
(Hell, before 4A gave trollbows a needed nerf, I saw a guy 2-shot a T-Bird with less impressive rolls.)

So it's proof that magic is overpowered why again?



(In those games I've run, I disallow sensitive system UNLESS cyber is actually bought as well)

And body certainly does still have a point - it defines how many boxes of damage the object can take - in the case of a Citymaster, that body 16 means it gets 8 + (16/2) = 16 boxes.
So you need either 5 hits on a force 15+ spell, or +1 hit per -1 force to pull off a one-shot.

Since he was multicasting, he's was actually betting on getting those 5+ successes multiple times (and increasing the drain as well.) Petty damn difficult to get 5+ hits on (12 split)+6 dice reliably. Getting 8-9 is VERY unlikely.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 25 2010, 05:40 PM

I figured someone might bring up the extra boxes thing, but the rest of it still stands (except for the troll thing, I dunno why I said that) because I was talking about resistance primarily. Once you can beat OR, the damage is still coming in, and you're doing a helluva lot more damage to a city master with one upstaged power bolt than you'll do with most other attacks, much less ones you can easily smuggle around. I won't comment on the multi-casting, because it isn't what I would have done without Edge. You're already doing some severe unresisted damage, after all. Being able to maim a Citymaster with an attack you carry around in your head is good enough for me. I mean, hell, a stock Citymaster rolls 36 dice to resist damage under normal circumstances. I'm guessing the Drain thing you're talking about is another Anniversary change I've never bothered checking out or implementing. I'm more or less done buying Shadowrun products and have been for a while.

Oh, wait, I've looked that one up before. The changes PDF says it was an optional mechanic. Does the print version say otherwise?

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 06:25 PM

Let's get some comparative numbers out here because the gut feeling thing is getting dumb.

A combat mage rolling 18 dice (6 skill, 6 magic, 2 specialty, 2 mentor, 2 power focus) throws a Force 9 (for drain purposes) Powerbolt at a NPC, who we'll say has Body 3. Assume 6 successes for the mage, 1 for the grunt, 5 net hits and the NPC takes 14 DV physical damage and explodes into red mist. The 9 force results in 5 Drain to be resist by a 12 dice pool (say logic 5, willpower 5, fetish 2) and the average 4 hits have the mage taking 1 physical hit.

A gun bunny rolling 19 dice (6 skill, 2 specialty, 9 attribute, 1 smartlink, 1 Reflex Recorder) fires a called shot (-4 dice +4 DV) with his Pred filled with EX-Ex (6 DV -2 AP) at the same NPC who we'll say has Body 3, Reaction 6 and Dodge 6, and he goes on Full Defense. According to the skills chapter, this is the Micheal Jordan of Dodging working as a guard or whatever. He's also wearing his 14R full body armor and helmet with 12 ballistic armor. Assume 5 successes for the gun bunny and 4 for the NPC, then 11 DV of damage vs. 10 modified armor + 3 Body, averaging 4 hits for the NPC who then takes 7 Physical Damage. Since this was a simple action the gun bunny fires again and does 14 DV physical damage and the NPC's brains are splattered against the wall.

Notes: Used a 350 nuyen Pred instead of something serious with burst fire just to really stack the deck against the gun bunny. I didn't use any gear over 12 availability for either and a spellcasting focus is so horribly inefficient I imagine no one gets one (it wouldn't make a difference anyway). An attribute of 9 is pathetically easy to get with a cyberlimb, it'll cost far less than that power focus. I opted against cyberware for the mage but it would just lower Magic by 1 and give him a larger drain resist dice pool from 3 cerebral boosters so change the results to no drain sustained if you are so inclined.

Results: So the same NPC in two situations, who had no counterspelling, not standing behind a Ward with top-notch dodging ability going full defense in fully body armor takes identical damage in 1 IP. It's the best case for the mage and the worst case for the gun bunny and it didn't matter.

The difference in defenses did not make a difference in the end result. The game is balanced, everyone is a badass.

If we were using Drain = F instead of F/2 that Mage would be resisting 10 physical damage, taking 6 of it. And for what, to match the damage of a pistol?!

Regarding role versatility, the gun bunny in this situation actually invested fewer BPs and nuyen into his gun ability than the Mage. Equal skill, equal specialties, but that's 1 attribute at 6 and 2 at 5 for the Mage when the gun bunny could literally have 1 agility base as long as his cyberarm (3) is customized (+3) and enhanced (+3). The gun bunny's nuyen expenditures are also cheaper since Power Foci are incredibly expensive. If this gun bunny wants to be a hacker or a rigger or CQC guy as well? He will have an easier time of it than the Mage. The gun bunny will have a 160 BP headstart (155 for the attributes 5 in the nuyen). You don't even use attributes in matrix actions so the logic doesn't even double dip for the mage =/

Regarding utility versatility with lots of spells, I don't consider that a problem either honestly, it's what you get in exchange for the 15 BP of the quality, the potentially 75 BP you spend in the magic attribute and the 3 BP per spell. Those are costs that others do not pay, and they should yield some perks.

I apologize for the constant use of bold and increased size fonts, I personally think it's a fairly obnoxious practice, but I desperately want to get these points across. I'm new to SR but I know a few other RPG systems and frankly this seems elegantly well designed to me! I love the glass cannon aspect compared to other games where people take ridiculous (by real life terms) strikes and don't blink, and I think the different character aspects are fine. IMO Bound Spirits with a high charisma are crazy, but combat damage? C'mon now.

So, in terms of damage and build points and not nostalgia and gut feelings, tell me where the imbalance lies. I am genuinely extremely curious about your reasoning, because I truly just don't see a problem.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 25 2010, 06:49 PM

When you say the Sammy could have pulled off the same thing, what do you imagine he is using for a weapon?

Please do both extremes
* Wide open ZZZ carrying massively illegal hardware
* after a pat down on a AAA street corner

Also denote the costs in ammo. For the mage, we can deduct 50 nuyen per scene for the eventual first aid.

BlueMax

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 07:19 PM

You're kidding right? The Sammy could do it with an assault rifle firing APDS in 4 long bursts, 280 nuyen in ammo. There are numerous options for concealing an assault rifle, but I have to ask how the hell are you being patted down when on a shadowrun? Alternatively why do you feel the need to destroy a citymaster when you're out clubbing?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 25 2010, 07:30 PM

Well technically a rating 4 power focus probably raises some alarms as well so before it is masked you can have trouble, but even without that I'm rolling 16 dice.

And for the record there was no multicasting. The issue was 2 citymasters in a combat turn. I had 4 passes, 4 spells 1 for each pass and 2 citymasters blew up. Most Sams can not pull this off because they don't carry around the artillery to do it. Mages are always have heavy weapons on them.

And yes a Sam can obliterate a guy just as well as a powerbolt. But a Sam can't handle the same range of threats, and the same numbers of threats easily. For the same drain as a powerbolt I can stunball a big ass group of people down. And again this is stuff you have with you at all times. I am sure if a Sam is loaded for biodrone drop bears he can handle a lot as well but how often are you geared up like that? But then when it comes time to help the entire party sneak, the Sam is doing nothing, when we need to probe a mind the Sam is doing nothing, when we need to run at mach 4 the sam is doing nothing, when we need fly across a gap the sam is maybe slowly setting a rope and hook, when we need to poof heal the party nback to full health the Sam ends at first aid skills, and the mages versatility hasn't ended in the pure magic arena yet. And the mage can still hack, shoot, rig etc.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 25 2010, 07:34 PM

Highly unlikely. A Sam would need 11 net hits with APDS ammo to have a chance to scratch a citymaster with an assault rifle. And the citymasters were being rigged so good luck getting any net hits unless that was a wide burst. And while if you are assaulting an X yeah you might have an assault rifle, you can't exactly conceal them while walking down the street. Even a SMG would be hard to conceal from anyone who is trained.


Edit to add: In a AAA neighborhood you get patted down if you look suspicious in the slightest. Also in this case we were conning our way through security and the con failed after we were inside or maybe as soon as we tried it and they let us in to trap us, as a player I don't really know end result we had to shoot our way out. You don't really take your anti vehicle missiles with you on a con unless you are impersonating arms dealers.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jun 25 2010, 07:39 PM

First off, you can't do two called shots in a round. In fact, if you perform a called shot you can't take any other shots in a round (EDIT: I misread the FAQ on this you can take a normal and a called).

Now, by RAW (I haven't seen any errata) the mage can actually cast multiple spells at the same target without needing to split the dice pool (the description of multiple spellcasting says for each target... not each spell cast). Most games people still split the pool though. Either way, the mage can hit multiple targets unlike the street sam with a called shot.

Also, something as simple as Mob Mind can take out an entire group of fully chromed street sams without much difficulty - the player street sam won't be nearly as well off against a group of guys like him.

Posted by: Traul Jun 25 2010, 07:44 PM

It was not. Called shot takes a free action so it can only be done once (is multitasking still around? Now that would be useful ). The second shot has a modified DV of 8 (-4 raw damage and 1 more net hit compared to your example). After soaking, the grunt suffers 4S and is still standing.

EDIT: beaten to it But I don't think you have to take aim before calling a shot. Maybe you are refering to this line:



All I understand is that calling a shot does not break the aim chain.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 07:49 PM

Just put it in a bag to conceal it when walking down the street, heh. I'm not that well versed in firearm combat but AFAIK the vehicle is rolling Reaction + Handling, getting net hits seems pretty simple, the biggest obstacle here is all the various recoil reducing accessories since a long burst is -9 dice +9 DV, but there are enough of them to make this, upon cursory inspection, quite feasible. The 15 DV -6 AP per IP is serious damage, 18 body 20 armor would be a 33 dice pool, 8 hits if you just buy them at 4 a pop instead of rolling that many dice, 7 damage taken.

Edit2: Ah I see the confusion, I meant a Full Auto Burst not a Long Burst. Which an Assault Rifle can still do. Deferring to Mr. Unpronounceable with regards to long burst feasibility, although upon cursory inspection that too will work out.

Edit: Let me spell out the dice pool so you can check the mechanics here too, but a 19 Dice (6 skill, 2 specialty, 9 attribute, 1 recorder, 1 smartgun), -9 Dice for full auto burst, means 10 dice against 5 (6 reaction, -1 handling) for the Citymaster, you're definitely going to hit him. And that's with no recoil compensation. Areas Alpha is 6 DV -2 AP base, APDS is -4 AP, Full Auto Burst is +9 DV, it holds 42 rounds so you have the ammo, so 15 DV vs. 14 Armor means you're doing damage. Body 16 (not 18 as was mentioned above, oops) + armor 20 (modifed to 14) damage resistance means a 30 dice pool. You'll do 8 damage per complex action if the GM doesn't bother rolling the body + armor dice and just buys it and about 5 damage per complex action, on average, if he rolls them all out. That vehicle is going down, 140-280 nuyen in ammo.

Regarding one called shot a round, my mistake but you should definitely still go with free action -> called shot for one of the two shots because trading Dice for DV on a 1:1 basis is incredibly efficient. It and bursts are pretty crazy mechanics for firearm users. If you really want I'll put a Burst Fire weapon in there because you can do multiple bursts in a round.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jun 25 2010, 08:03 PM

Er. No...7 base damage -2AP, -4AP = a whole 3 net hits required to "scratch the citymaster."

A long burst doesn't help bypass the armor, but once it does, that +5 damage more or less counters the entire body roll of the van.

Assuming the above, you need, on average, to do about 32 damage between two long bursts to take down a citymaster. i.e. about 4 net hits per burst. Which you can do in one round. Without splitting dice pool.

Not all that difficult, really.

Easier than the 5 hits you need to do the same with "overpowered" magic's split dice pool, anyway, with the bonus of not suddenly dropping to NO damage if you rolled slightly poorly.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 25 2010, 08:11 PM

Okay I'll be nice and assume you have a white night with gyro arms with maxed agility, exceptional attribute, you are an elf, changeling with even better agility, and genetic optimization agility for a total of 15 agility, 6 in heavy weapons, specialized in the LMGs, and a smart gun link obviously. Heck you are also an adept with enhanced heavy weapons skills and your even have an aptitude in heavy weapons so kick that up to 7 base. So 29 dice to shoot, no recoil compensation. You get 9-10 hits on average and plink off the armor since you have to raise the base DV before autofire in order to penetrate it.

You get lucky and roll 13 hits so as long as the driver with reaction-handling does not get 3 hits you destroy the citymaster though if he decides to dodge he also adds in his skill.(I wont add in the resistance test even because 26+ DV is hard to resist even with 32 dice) You will never get better at this than you are now and you have to get lucky to take out the citymaster. A mage who will get better takes it out with considerably less minmaxing and no restraints on where he can carry the gun, though I guess you can compare that to background count. And the mage handles multiple targets better and has ridiculous versatility. Yeah you think they paid for it, but others would pay more for less versatility and less power. '

Yeah you could have some of the really, big guns and do base 10ish DV but 1/2 the armor of the citymaster and probably take it out in one shot. But really again how often do you have that with you, it is kind of specialized since against anything less than heavy vehicles your other weapons are a better choice and its freakin huge.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jun 25 2010, 08:12 PM

I used to think the same thing, but the recent FAQ dealing with called shots and spells seems to imply otherwise (yes, I know that FAQ != RAW). The FAQ and the rules seem to imply you need to Take Aim first.

Edit: I misread the FAQ, you can take a Called Shot without a Take Aim. So you can have 1 called shot and 1 normal shot in a round.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 25 2010, 08:15 PM

Maybe I'm reading a typo or something but a citymaster has 20 armor in my book. So he has to get to 17DV with APDS ammo. And an assault rifle has a base DV of 6 so 17-6=11 net hits. You reminded me about 1 thing though the AR itself has -1 AP so 10 net hits.

Posted by: Traul Jun 25 2010, 08:19 PM

You know what? I find 10

DV 6 (where do you get the 7 AP -2 from? Experimental APDS Ex-Ex ammo?)
Modified armor 20 -1 from the assault rifle -4 from the APDS= 15

Net hits needed = 15-6+1 (need to be strictly higher than the armor) = 10

EDIT: beaten for the second time.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 25 2010, 08:35 PM

Going to stop editing since it doesn't refresh the page, heh.

Ok not counting the autofire DV bonus with regards to penetrating armor, since that apparently does not count, you would just need a HMG instead of an Assault Rifle, 7 DV -3 AP, with the APDS rounds and 7 net hits. Considering the pathetic dice pool of the vehicle (Reaction -1 Handling) and the abundance of recoil reducing accessories it's still not an "omg impossible" task, it does mean a dice pool slightly over 20, which I think is the line for "cheap character", so I'll concede that point.

Use a couple rockets or run up to it and put apply some foam explosive instead. Couple thousand nuyen cost, you still put it in a bag to conceal it.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 25 2010, 08:41 PM

Pre 4A scatter rockets and I'll agree with you on the rockets if they are AV rockets.

And sure Sams can take out heavy vehicles but maybe it is how we run games but the number of times you have the gear to do so is not altogether that common.

Posted by: Cheops Jun 25 2010, 08:41 PM

Note that 4 long bursts can only be accomplished over the course of 4 action phases. So you'd need to have Wired 3 as a street sam to get off 4 long bursts in 1 Combat turn. Rules clearly state that despite it being a simple action you are limited to 1 long burt per action phase. Thus you get 1 long and 1 short burst.

1) You are being patted down because you infiltrated a facility and then were spotted. Feeling good-natured for once instead of the usual, Comedian-style response or maybe because you have a face with you who isn't a sociopathic gun bunny, you try to bluff your way out of the problem. Hard to convince the guard you aren't up to something when you look like Rambo.

2) Fall out from a run. Cops are here to arrest you and you really don't want to go or maybe they are raiding the place while you are there. Remember, most street sams are felons just for existing and being SINless isn't as big an advantage as people think. Or it could be a corporate strike team.

In both those cases the Mage not only has Direct Combat spells but will also often have non-damaging spells that let them evade the problem. Influence, most illusions, and Shapechange all spring to mind.

EDIT: To point out that with an HMG there is no way you are concealing that and getting rid of -6 recoil can be tough. Every point you miss by is -2 dice not -1 because it is a heavy weapon. Gyromounts and bi/tripods are great for heavy weapons but also require some set up and again mess up the concealability. Unless maybe we are talking about a 2 man hmg team (1 sets up the tripod the other fires in the same action).

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jun 25 2010, 08:44 PM

Whoops...yeah, I was thinking 16/16 for some reason. That's what I get for rattling off numbers from my head without checking the book again.
(Laughably, that means grenades can't hurt citymasters at all...or did I miss an exception to vehicle armor somewhere? But that would be a flaw in vehicle armor, not magic.)

still 11 hits (9, if he picked up AV rounds instead of APDS) off his 20 dice isn't much worse off than the mage's needed 5 hits from 12ish.
With the odd little bonus that getting past the armor at all is not unlikely to destroy the van in one hit. Again, flaw in vehicle armor, not magic.

*shrug*
Or replace the AR with a Barret => 9P damage, -4AP, AV-6AP = no bursts, but 1 hit to scratch, 2ish hits twice to destroy the car.
Or, one of the ever-popular assault cannons, lasers, or even a flamethrower - no problems there.

Posted by: Ravennus Jun 25 2010, 08:46 PM

Sorry to derail slightly, but are you talking about cyberarm gyromounts?
If you have one for each cyberarm, does the recoil comp from each stack if ou are wielding a firearm two-handed?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 25 2010, 09:01 PM

I have no idea, but they might.(for me the one of the biggest 4e fails is they should have had solid rules on stacking and things that don't stack like 3e+D&D that everyone rails against, but then again I am not a fan of gagillion dice monsters of juggled rules and gear) Still white knight comes with 6, gyro give 3 more and there is only 9 points of recoil in a 10 shot burst.

Posted by: Traul Jun 25 2010, 09:03 PM

Gyromounts do not stack in Arsenal. It does not explicitely mention the cyber ones, but it is close enough.

Posted by: Ravennus Jun 25 2010, 09:04 PM

Ah ok. For some reason I was thinking the White Knight just had 3 points of in-built RC

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 25 2010, 09:19 PM

I would like to pick a point here. Thats 11 *net* hits. The vehicle gets to dodge. Most Riggers have great Reactions too.

Who is covering the "easily conceable" challenge for the samurai?

BlueMax

Posted by: Doc Chase Jun 25 2010, 09:32 PM

This is the point where I radio the drone rigger to lob that high explosive rocket on his Nimrod, disguised as a malfunctioning camera drone (according to its electronic signature, anyway).

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jun 25 2010, 10:07 PM

That's even easier - all it takes is a microdrone with a laser pointer and link to the sammy half a mile away with a mortar. Surprise = no dodge.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 25 2010, 10:50 PM

Right. That's what the mage does when he doesn't want to cast and everything is already setup.

I was looking for what the sammy does. Really, what does the Sammy do?


BlueMax

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 26 2010, 12:47 AM

The Sam runs. He really does not have another choice if he isn't packing heavy artillery. But to be fair if you are in a heavy background count the mage runs as well. To me there is a large difference though, background counts are what the GM adds to make things more difficult or to balance the mage. Not carrying a barret sniper rifle or whatever is the norm for a Sam, he carries the artillery in unusual situations. It is almost a reverse thing, in unusual situations the mage is hit by enough background count he can't act at absurd power, in other unusual situations the Sam can carry highly obvious and illegal gear and is absurdly powerful.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jun 26 2010, 11:20 AM

And now, for comparison, a rigger.

Gunnery 6, Specialization (ballistic) +2, Command 6 Ergo 1, Comlink Optimization (Command) +1, Codeslinger (Command) +2, Hotsim +2 = 19 dice Firing remotely from a Steel Lynx armed with a (Restricted gear) GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon using Ex-Ex rounds for 12P -7AP. He fires a wide burst getting roughly 6 hits. The target, on full defense rolls... -14 dice, so let's just skip that part, 'k? Who wants to soak 18P with a generous (14 + 6 -7 = 13) dice?

Oh, and then, thanks to his Simsense Booster and Simsense Accelerator (Restricted gear), he continues to do this for a total of 5 IPs. Or, he takes a simple action to scratch his nose, then uses a second simple action to launch 10 Ares Heimdal missiles from a GTS Tower hovering 3 km away...

Posted by: Traul Jun 26 2010, 01:08 PM

1) This requires heavy modifications on the Steel Lynx: the serial weapon mount is not reinforced.
2) I don't see Ex-Ex assault cannon ammunition in the book.
3) You are throwing away 675 Y with every burst. Will the run will cover the expenses?

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 26 2010, 01:12 PM

1 <3 you.

BlueMax

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 26 2010, 02:52 PM

And yet sometimes, even the best dice pools fail and you take Drain... That is a pretty undeniable fact of the game... Well desigend mages may indeed minimize drain, but you can never eliminate it all together. I do not have any issues with the Magic Rules (I play in the same games as Orcus Blackweather and Firehand). Can a MAge turn an encounter into an afterthought? Sure, but that is okay... They paid a large amount of Character Creation resources to do so... I am curious though, how often you see the Magical Powerhouse out of Character Generation... Mages in our games generally tend to start around 12 Dice for Spells and about 8-12 Dice for Drain; SO maybe our games are not as "Typical" of the Tables represented by Dumpshock Regulars. Mages in our games are competent, but do not tend to outshine any other Archtype that is played at our tables, there is plenty of combat spotlight to go around...

When the world reacts realistically to the use of magic, magic (and other illegal activities, actually) self moderates pretty fast. Not every mage is perfect every time, and they almost always leave evidence of their presence. I know that many people here fall into the Consequences are Dickery Camp. But the fact remains. If there are logical consequences to the use and abuse of mgic, then your mages will keep themselves in line. Just like a Street Samurai who probably does not resort to just shooting someone because they can... There are consequences for such actions, just as there are consequences for Using Magic at every turn. Eventually those consequences will come home to roost.

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 26 2010, 03:01 PM

Same in mine. I don't think mages are game breakers. I just think they're better than the other archetypes by a perhaps unhealthy margin. They're like Hackers in the sense that they are practically necessary in games in which the GM throws the full breadth of the Sixth World's dangers at you. Love them or hate them, they fill niches nobody else really can. Yet they're also rather very competent outside of dealing with things like the astral and countering magical threats. And to be honest, I don't consider buying up the Magic attribute to be much of a weakness considering that with the right spells it can effectively operate as a proxy for other skills and attributes. It's actually the 10 dice guys that I take the most issue with, actually. A one trick pony build can be a real handful (and worryingly enough, with Magicians, there's no reason they must remain a one trick poney; simply collecting spells post chargen can make them flexible in a hurry), but outside of their niche they're rather unimpressive by definition. But your 10 dice utility Mage can approximate so many different tricks that the game can turn into a blur of spellcasting and summoning dice rolling around. It bogs things down because they can contribute dice to so many things and often times the Magician does an inordinate amount of the work unless you really sit there and keep track of each and every astral signature they leave laying around. I generally assume I just need to slow down the mages in games and everything else will follow as far as providing a healthy amount of difficulty goes, and more often than not I'm right.

And there's a difference between letting a few points of Stun drain slide through unresisted every now and again and taking enough drain for it to be a limiting factor. It's pretty rare in my experience that Drain has been a problem for the players. Half the time it just indicates they just got shot up a bit too much, which if anything means they probably should have casted harder. Part of the issue is the sheer power of First Aid in Shadowrun.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 26 2010, 03:09 PM

Yeah that is kinda low dicepool for casting, even my latest mystic adept buld who only has magic 3 for spell casting has 16 dice to cast combat spells with.

Posted by: HeckfyEx Jun 26 2010, 03:14 PM

And what is your dicepool for other spells?

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 26 2010, 03:22 PM

Probably an 8 or 9, assuming he got there via a high Skill rating, Mentor Spirit, Specialization and a Power Focus. Not great, but not bad either. You don't necessarily need gobs of dice to get some use out of Detection spells, for example, although it does help.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 26 2010, 03:30 PM

As a Comparison there Shinobi... I once saw a Street Samin our game generate 30p Damage with an Assault Rifle (Was admittedly a phenomenal 11 Successes on the attack roll with Edge Spent (14 Base Dice + Edge of 4 (I think)), but the vehicle had to resist 30p... even with your City Master and bought Soak (of 9) it would have still evaporated with 21p Damage... Even Average Rolls with 36 Dice is still only 12 Successes so even with average Results the Citymaster evaproates as it still has 2 points over its physical Boxes...

1 Pass...

Was it a Fluke... Indeed... But it was still a dead vehicle nonetheless, and not a whole lot different than the result with your Competent Mage example...

As for the versatility of the Mage, they pay for the privelege... Which is okay...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 26 2010, 03:35 PM

I'm not really convinced that they pay enough considering what magic can do. At the end of the day, everyone tallies up to 400 bps, so I would rather expect that other archetypes would match up a li'l better. Magic is expensive, but it provides a lot of value, particularly if you concentrate on things like Task spirits and take more of a backseat runner approach to things.

Anyway, I find it sort of funny that I'm arguing this since I usually play magicians and even as a GM I don't really houserule them any. Most suggestions I hear about it hit me as a touch overkill. I just think it's a li'l weird that Magicians can end up with their fingers in so many pies.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 26 2010, 03:37 PM

Sure, but that sam couldn't do that twice per IP.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 26 2010, 03:39 PM

QFT... This is definintely an issue, but unfortunately belongs in a completely seperate topic...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 26 2010, 03:40 PM

You are right about that... but does he really need to?

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Falconer Jun 26 2010, 03:47 PM

You forgot 2 critical items in this list...

Magic: Affected by background count, visibility, AND COVER (yes defenders add cover to their resistance rolls).

Firearms: Simple action to fire, 2 shots per pass... spell one per. So yes more 'dice' per bullet, but twice as many bullets.



At the end of the day, it comes down to... you get caught flatfooted by a good gunbunny or a good combat mage and you're dead. There's no problem there. SRun is a game of glass cannons... surprise can and will kill anyone.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 26 2010, 04:18 PM

I assumed he was listing only the differences there.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 26 2010, 04:22 PM

Tymaeus, I only mentioned it because a poster before you said 'the mage is killing 2 citymasters per IP'. It's still a good distinction: your sam did it once, on a fluke, while the mage does it twice per IP, consistently. That's all.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 26 2010, 04:27 PM

a whopping 7
But she only has combat spells, atleast currently, she isn't ready yeat.
And for intrested that 16 dice comes from Magic 3 + spelcasting 4 + spec (2)+ mentor bonus (2) + spellcasting focus 5.
That makes her quite nasty at multicasting as 9 of those are bonuses added after slitting pool.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 26 2010, 04:33 PM

But the mage did not do it twice per IP, he did it twice in a Turn (he had 4 IP), Big Difference... Using that same logic, The Street Sam could also do it Twice per Turn, or maybe even more... It was indeed a Fluke for the City Master, but the same works for Drones as well... Mage STILL needs 5+ Hits to beat the OR, where the Street Sam just becomes even more deadly for the target lacking that awesome Armor and Body Rating of the Citymaster...

As for Metahuman Targets, they are both equally dead, regardless of whether the Mage did it or the Street Sam Did it...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 26 2010, 04:35 PM

You can't multicast? Anyway, it's not my point, I was just comparing what you said to what (I assumed) you were responding directly to.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 26 2010, 04:39 PM

Anyone can indeed multicast (Just as Gunbunnies can take two Shots or more per pass), but the example (From Shinobi?) was not so...

No big deals though... Especially since I do not think that Spellcasting/Spells are broken...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 26 2010, 04:40 PM

I see a lot of argument based on the idea that a Street Sam can more or less reproduce the same amount of damage as a Mage so long as they have the right equipment. My argument is that I simply don't want the Mages in my game to be able to reproduce the equivalent firepower of a Street Sam round after round after round. I don't want Mages standing shoulder to shoulder with Street Sams hosing down the enemy with virtually limitless firepower.
This is what I call "artillery mage syndrome" and it just doesn't fit my vision for SR.

IMO the RAW make SR more like a Supers game in a vaguely cyberpunk setting. I prefer my games to be more gritty street level so I limit the power of Mages, but I also severely limit access to things like Machine Guns, Rocket Launchers, and Grenades. Most of my games take place in large cities like Seattle rather than 3rd world countries, so the use of things like Machine Guns and Rocket Launchers is likely to have every government agency with an acronym descending on any city in which they were used. Not only does this make life more difficult for the team, but for every other Shadowrunner in the city too. What is that going to do for the teams rep. Its virtually impossible to even buy that type of heavy artillery anomymously because its almost always done through a fixer or weapons dealer contact and you better hope you have a high loyalty rating with them because thats likely the first place the Feds are going to start their investigations.

Shadowrun for me is more covert-ops oriented and less run 'n gun. It has its share of combat, but the combat isn't likely to make national headlines due to how many people were killed or what buildings/vehicles were blown up. I know for a lot of people the game is more about who has the biggest gun and can cause the most damage per round. If I wanted a shoot 'em up with military grade weapons, I wouldn't be playing Shadowrun.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 26 2010, 04:42 PM

I assumed you were describing a Complex Action Full Auto (Narrow) from the sam, TJ. Sorry if I assumed wrong.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 26 2010, 04:42 PM

I actually find the 10-12 dice pool fairly normal. It is easy to work the system to get a lot more but that isn't normal to me. 5 magic+5spellcasting=10dice and to me that is normal. Add in +2 dice for a mentor spirit and maybe another 2 for specialization though I generally don't do that at char gen. In a BP system I am tempted to get focuses given the discount on binding them and coming up with the 50,000+ for a power focus in game can take a while. But I usually pass on that and just have 10 dice with 12 dice in a school of magic or two from a mentor if I have one.

But I usually have 10 spells and I have enough versatility with them and spirits to cover a huge range of situations probably more than I could ever cover via skills for the same BP expenditure.

But you can grow fast as a mage and nothing stops you from using any of the skills in the game just as well as others. My 20 dice monstrosity at chargen was also the teams Face, a 7 Chr goes a long way to helping there. He had no idea how to use a gun but with spells how often does he need one. Admittedly background count double hit him in the dice pool since it hit his magic and the power focus but even then a 6 skill gets me a lot of dice and you don't need a massive force on some spells like mind control spells.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 26 2010, 04:47 PM

It does not fit my vision of SR either.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 26 2010, 04:48 PM

At least at our table, this is not the case... Mages are Powerful, but they rarely even WANT to stand with the Street Sam and fling Spells in tandem with the Street Sams Full Auto Bursts... That is what the Street Sam is for...



Which I think tends to be the norm in most games (Limited use of Military Equipmewnt that is)... Rampant use of military equipment is generally a bad thing for business, and I would say that it is only common in Pink Mohawk Games...



Which I do think is the Norm... I have seen Way more Ice Cold Professional Level Games (Where Collatoral Damage is heavily limited) than Pink Mohawk Games (where anything goes) by a wide margin... Many of the comparisons used are Often Edge Cases to prove a point; Reality is generally somewhere in the middle for most Shadowrun games, I have found.

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Falconer Jun 26 2010, 05:31 PM

Artillery mage:
Only if the mage is a diehard combat mage... and tricked out to the gills to cast combat spells. In which case, more power to him... as it's not a great mage build.


And all the comments about street sam w/ right equipment ignore the fact that all these optomized mages, have 10's of thousands (plus karma binding costs) in magical equipment somehow on them as well.

Posted by: Falconer Jun 26 2010, 05:32 PM

Artillery mage:
Only if the mage is a diehard combat mage... and tricked out to the gills to cast combat spells. In which case, more power to him... as it's not a great mage build.


And all the comments about street sam w/ right equipment ignore the fact that all these optomized mages, have 10's of thousands (plus karma binding costs) in magical equipment somehow on them as well. As well as they're putting all their bonus (spec + mentor) into a single school of magic. (hence combat/artillery mage specialization).

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 26 2010, 07:15 PM

I think the game should be able to support anyone's playstyle and that attacking other playstyles doesn't change the game mechanics.

BlueMax

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jun 26 2010, 11:45 PM

1) Restricted gear quality #3.
2) Nowhere does it say autocannons use assault cannon rounds. It follows that any other type of normal round may be used.
3) Use Regular explosive ammo for 12P -6AP. Oh heavens! Did I just lose a whole -1AP? How will I be able to destroy millions of dollars worth of heavy armor in a singe 32P narrow burst now?

Actual artillery is still better than an artillery mage. Too bad it can't get into a building though

Posted by: Cheops Jun 27 2010, 01:38 PM

2) As a GM you are well within your rights to say "No" to this because of this line:



This makes me think that the physical size of this thing would likely unbalance the Steel Lynx and cause it to flip. Maybe if you modified the rail mounted drone system from a monorail to a dual track with a fairly wide gauge then a GM can't really complain -- but then it can only go as far as the rails go. For mobility you could always mount it on a big jeep, flatbed truck, or bigger.

3) On a full narrow burst you'd be 26P, -6AP not 32P. The target still gets to dodge, and any uncompensated recoil is double the penalty. -14 dice is a lot of recoil to get rid of (even if it is vehicle mounted to get rid of the double problem).

This sort of stuff is also very far beyond most games. The example of the Citymasters was one where the team was trying to bluff past a checkpoint, failed, and was confronted with 2 Citymasters. I think LS or the target corp would have noticed a Steel Lynx with a fucking ship-mounted gatling gun on it loitering nearby.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 27 2010, 04:49 PM

Agreed, 100%.

BlueMax

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 27 2010, 05:12 PM

1. Yup, go for it.
2. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, an autocannon does not use cannon rounds? Sorry no, it only uses cannon rounds. Also as pointed out by cheops there is a bit of logical incongruity with a ship mounted cannon on a small steel lynx.
3. There are plenty of ways for a rigger to get to absurd damage, and hey good for them. When they also remove 6 dice from all perception checks to notice the entire party, heal the sam after being shot on top of the first aid, then I'll be impressed. Luckily for riggers there is a decent chance they also can deck so they have at least a bit of breadth.

Posted by: Cheops Jun 27 2010, 06:21 PM

Riggers are dead in SR4. No reason to play one anymore. A sam or a hacker can easily fill in for one and often do the job just as well. It's so cheap to be a hacker that you may as well be a sam, face, or rigger (or possibly 2-3 of those) at the same time. That's why I've fallen in love with the optional rule of dice pool modifiers affect the threshold of the test and not your dice pool. Now the control rig lets you do all sorts of crazy stuff that you might not otherwise attempt. Gives a bit more justification for a rigger class.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 27 2010, 07:31 PM

Sorry, I have to disagree with you here... Riggers are pretty damn awesome in SR4 (At least in my opinion anyways)... Much more than in previous editions in my opinion. They are just as capable as in previous editions (If not more), And they are also capable of fulfilling other roles (Especially Hacking, if they are so inclined, as their skills will mesh nicely)...

I don't really like that particular optional Rule myself, but that is just me...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2010, 07:59 PM

Hacker IS rigger, and that's a good thing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 27 2010, 08:00 PM

True... and Yes...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Critias Jun 27 2010, 08:44 PM

There's no such thing as a "rigger class," because there's no such thing as classes.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 27 2010, 09:00 PM

The problem is that there's no such thing as a Rigger, period, because all Riggers are Hackers. It's like trying to distinguish between a Mage and a Conjurer. It's just a specialty of a general archetype now, instead of its own unique niche like it used to be.

Which all of you know is exactly what Cheops was saying.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 27 2010, 09:18 PM

Matter of preference. Personally, I'm fine with it.

And ironically enough, I concluded that letting the Control Rig flat out lower thresholds even further would actually make it less important to invest a good amount of points into having truly good Pilot skills. You already get a -1 to Thresholds via piloting through VR. Give a samurai a Horseman and a 10k nuyen, .5 essence Control Rig that also lowers thresholds and suddenly he's doing stoppies with minimal skill and a pinch of luck. Thanks, but no thanks. Making Riggers their own thing again isn't a one pass fix.

For the record though, I disagree that all Riggers are Hackers. You don't need Hacking to be a good Rigger and you don't need all those programs. You can get by with Computer and Cybercombat to keep people out of your stuff or could even try getting by with a good enough Agent if you really wanted to. I'll grant you that it's definitely -tempting- to go further and take those handy skills since they're low hanging fruit if you go with Skill Groups, but there's a difference between something being tempting and something being a given.

Posted by: Critias Jun 27 2010, 10:00 PM

I think it takes more than a few plugs to make someone a Rigger or a Hacker. I know I've got at least three characters, just off the top of my head, that are drivers (and are capable of controlling drones), that certainly aren't Hackers by any stretch of the imagination.

This being a classless game, a character is what you make of it. The fact it doesn't take 2, 3, or 5 points of Essence to get a VCR rig any more is a good thing, in my opinion. A wildly, fantastically, feverishly, good thing.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jun 27 2010, 11:17 PM

I think you're mixing up the GE Vanquisher Autocannon with the GM Heavy Cannon Main Gun. The GM Heavy is the one which says it uses special rounds which share the same cost and availability as assault cannon rounds. The autocannon says no such thing, so one would assume no such thing.

It also says it's used for tankbuster vehicles and will fit in a heavy turret mount. You can put a heavy turret mount on a steel lynx, ergo, you can fit an autocannon on a steel lynx. Or, stuff a hidden turret in a bus or something if that's what you require to feed the RC needs with RC = body.

The point is, when you need artillery on demand, a mage will do, but if artillery is the plan, call a rigger.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 27 2010, 11:28 PM

All this talk has me trying to create a decent mage/rigger as a thought exercise but it's pretty tricky if you want to start with a few Foci (which I think is quite important, a Sustaining 3 (health) + Power 2 at least IMO) since properly modified and fitted drones are also expensive as hell (unless I'm doing it wrong, heh).

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 27 2010, 11:47 PM

And none of that actually has anything to do with what the guy was saying.

Riggers are dead. They're a specialty to a broader category of character. Unlike, say, Mages or Hackers. It has nothing to do with VCR's being expensive, but with Riggers actually being unique and requiring focused character builds to make them worthwhile; not something anyone else can do just by dropping a few nuyen in the bucket and calling it a day. When you can just get a cheap Control Rig and toss a few extra programs on your Commlink... that doesn't make you a Rigger. It makes you a Hacker who can rig. Same applies for adepts or anyone else you care to choose for the base archetype.

And, for the record, a "driver" is not a Rigger. It takes a Control Rig or its equivalence to be one.

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 28 2010, 12:00 AM

I may be in the minority, but I hate that they eliminated the niche that Riggers used to fill and meshed them so thorougly with Hackers. Thats because vehicle chases tend to be a large staple of the games I run though. I don't particularly like the idea that Hackers can become combat monsters both in and out of the Matrix for such a small amount of extra essence and a couple basic drones. I like that SR doesn't have set classes and characters can mix 'n match however they wish, but I don't like the dumbing down of specializations.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 28 2010, 12:42 AM

I don't really see how it's a subcategory of Hacker when you don't need Hacking skills to be a Rigger. You don't even need Hacking to protect your stuff, really. If you're paranoid you could go with Data Bombs, Computer-Analyze and some Cyber Combat if you REALLY feel like squaring off with them yourself as a cyber-brawler while Agents and such can do a decent job if you want to bare bones it. Otherwise you can just go with Manual Control Override Systems and start driving with your own two hands if you'd rather skip taking a dose of 'trix skills and instead just have a backup system when wireless starts to turn against you. Or else you could just take a length of fiber optics and stick that baby into your datajack. There's advantages to going the "I know the 'trix inside and out!" Hacker-Rigger route, but you guys are definitely exaggerating the necessity of it. You don't need total exclusivity to be well-defined.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 28 2010, 01:03 AM

Y'all done hijacked what was a progressing magic vs non magic thread into a "Are all Riggers Hackers" thread.

BlueMax
/take this thread to Cuba

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 28 2010, 02:12 AM

You know, if you are going to make statements that the Rigger is dead, it really minimizes what you say when you then say that you need a Control Rig to be a Rigger... Either they exist or they don't... Which is it? You cannot have it both ways. I believe that you are wrong. Riggers are very playable characters that do not really need any serious level of Hacking to perform their duties. Admittedly, if they do take Hacker skills, it will aid them greatly in their function as a Rigger, but it is not absolutely necessary.

As for needing a control rig to be called a Rigger, I call bollocks to that, because it is not true at all... You can rig perfectly well without one (After all, it only adds +2 Dice, and does not actually reduce Thresholds)...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Critias Jun 28 2010, 02:14 AM

Obviously your idea of a Rigger and my idea of a Rigger aren't matching up. Have a good one.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2010, 02:18 AM

You can put a *heavy* turret on a Steel Lynx? I wasn't aware they had Body 14+.

You're right, I didn't mean Rigger is a Hacker (as in, cybercombat, exploit, etc.). I meant Rigger is a Hacker (as in, Matrix-centric, commlink-bound character).

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jun 28 2010, 02:26 AM

Well, all you need is a Reinforced Fixed Weapon mount, which you can fit on any vehicle with 4 body or more. Then you've got yourself a gun on wheels.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2010, 02:31 AM

Hmm. I must be confused on a couple things. First, that's not a Heavy Turret, but I assume the post only meant 'larger than LMG mount'; second, a Reinforced Mount takes up two Standard Mount slots, and it's one Standard Mount per 3 Body. Right?

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jun 28 2010, 02:40 AM

Yep, per 3 body, rounded up.

So, 4 rounds up to two mounts.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2010, 02:41 AM

Ha, no way. I forgot that silly clause was in the book, because we know that's terrible and wrong at my table.

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 28 2010, 02:47 AM

I would also like to add that I don't like how Smartgoggles are now basically just as good as an internal Smartlink system. I prefer the way previous editions handled that with a +1 for Smartgoggles and a +2 for an internal Smartlink. But thats just one of many many changes I don't like.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 28 2010, 02:50 AM

Yeah. It's really hard to grasp that a Rigger actuallys rigs a vehicle, usually via a Vehicle Control Rig. See ya.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2010, 02:53 AM

Redcrow, tough to do anything about that. Anyone can just wear trodes, for example, if the goggles are the problem, and basically anything has Image Link. Really, even a 'tough' version of such a restriction would only force everyone to get a tiny Datajack; only the Mages and Adepts would suffer.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 28 2010, 03:00 AM

Really? I thought that Riggers were Dead... Isn't that what you said?

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 28 2010, 03:02 AM

Yep. Try to pay attention to the conversation before jumping in with such poignant observations.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 28 2010, 03:05 AM

Still have not changed have you... You make incredibly inane comments and then complain when people point them out to you... Well, I guess that you have to keep that image going don't you? Otherwise you would not be you...

You will never change, and I think that that is very sad...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: nemafow Jun 28 2010, 03:09 AM

So.. Back to talking about how spells are strong?

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jun 28 2010, 03:09 AM

Body 1 minidrone all flying around on 6 inch wings, carrying a Vindicator LMG with 500 rounds of ammo...

RAW is hilarious.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 28 2010, 03:12 AM

I agree...
Does anyone have an opinion on Custom Designed spells for players? Do you allow it or not?
Does Anyone have any good examples of such spells available to share?

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 28 2010, 03:16 AM

I am pretty sure that it was fixed in the errata to one mount per 3 body, Rounded Down.
My Copy of the 2nd Printing of Arsenal Confirms this...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2010, 03:17 AM

Certainly allow them, on the template of existing spells. Wholly new stuff is 'maybe, probably no'.

Indeed, Saint and Tymeaus. Clearly it must be 'round down'.

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 28 2010, 03:20 AM

I'm all in favor of more suffering for Mages, but the truth is I always liked the idea that there was actually some benefit to internal vs. external smartlinks considering one costs essence and the other does not. Its the kind of thing that separates the men from the boys.

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 28 2010, 03:23 AM

I generally allow custom spells in my game, but the first thing I always consider when reviewing any spell that a player wants for their character is how is this going to be abused because honestly thats probably what the player was thinking when they designed it, I'm sure.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jun 28 2010, 03:27 AM

It gets even weirder.

An HMG requires a reinforced mount...

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 28 2010, 03:31 AM

That's incredibly cynical of you.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2010, 03:32 AM

Right, but there's really no distinction between trodes and datajack in SR4, so they'd just get trodes instead. Who even wears goggles for the Image Link?

Not cynical, just experienced. *Anything* custom-designed in any RPG should be scrutinized that way.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 28 2010, 03:35 AM

I agree that anything custom designed is inevitably stronger than stock elements, simply because of the metagaming aspects, it will be everything you need and nothing you don't.

That said, these things are usually made because players think they will be cool as hell, and they're overpowered only as a side effect. Few people set out with the intent "Man I'm going to make something ridiculously cheesy".

Posted by: nemafow Jun 28 2010, 03:39 AM

I tend to agree, while it may be innocent at first, it may not be later on and become a serious issue.

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 28 2010, 04:02 AM

Just wait 'til I get going.

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 28 2010, 04:06 AM

You obviously have more luck in the pool of players that you have than I. Sometimes I swear my players make things extra cheesy with the hopes I will simply nerf it down to where they wanted it anyway.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jun 28 2010, 04:25 AM

Well you get to pick the people you play with heh While the folks I tend to hang out with are notorious min/maxers (we're all engineering grad students or in entry level engineering jobs so I suppose optimizing is in our blood lol), it's always within the letter of the rules otherwise, what's the point? Stops being a game when you make something stupid and it just becomes "telling stories of how awesome my character is".

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 28 2010, 04:37 AM

Meh, it all depends. Sometimes players can be a net benefit even if they do have a cheeseball streak. Some players (hell, some groups) just kinda find pulling one over on the GM sorta funny from time to time. And let's face it, for some of us the sessions aren't really about the game, per se. I've got some friends from high school who game with me and my brother every once in a blue moon and really whatever system we end up "playing" isn't really the centerpiece any more. It's mostly an exercise in seeing who can get me to facepalm the hardest as they pitch character sheet ideas, and then we drink too much, order pizza and catch up with each other. Good times and LOTS of munchkin sheets.

Posted by: Redcrow Jun 28 2010, 04:45 AM

I don't mind players min/maxing their characters at all. Those that do are usually quickly disappointed with their characters in my game because they focused so strongly in one or two areas and neglected others that their character isn't very good at all in 4 out of 5 situations. Any player in my game that focuses solely on combat (just for example) and doesn't take any sort of Infiltration or Social Skills is going to be quite bored for the majority of each session. With skills like Infiltration a team that needs to move together as a unit is really only as good as its weakest link.

What I do find a bit annoying however is that most of the pre-built NPCs I find are the opposite of min/maxed. Many seem barely competent for their role. I usually have to rebuild the NPCs I find just to make them a challenge for the PCs.

Posted by: Cheops Jun 28 2010, 05:10 AM

The VCR has been massively dumbed down and the experience of it has completely changed. It used to be that you had to wire your brain specifically to "become" the vehicle and this was exclusive from other simulated realities. For instance, anyone could buy and use an RC deck but only in the captain's chair. To actually jump into the drones you had to have a VCR. Anyone could be a great driver, and usually the street sams WERE better drivers than the Rigger. But the Rigger was a better combat driver than the street sam because of the VCR.

In SR4 the VCR has been reduced to a +2 dice bonus. It offers zero additional benefit. You actually get more benefit from driving the vehicle in VR (1 hit) than using a VCR (2/3 hits). Also, VR now actually gives you the same simulated reality as the VCR used to do. Anyone with a commlink (ie. everyone) can now captain's chair drones. There's also a lot of overlap in the traditional rigger area. Riggers were your sigint and network security guys. The drone rigger in particular was heavy into the electronic warfare in a way that NO ONE else was. Now hackers live in a wireless world too and that overshadows another area of the rigger's specialty.

It isn't that a hacker = rigger. It is that the simulated reality of the two are now equal. VR = VCR. Anyone who can access VR can now be a rigger. Will they be as good as the "rigger" who focuses on being a "rigger." Fuck no. But at high Karma a hacker ~ rigger.

Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. The riggers usually didn't bother with the EW because it was long and tedious. Now you can actually play with it (although it is still tedious and long). Lots of people hated Manuever Score so now we have our current pile of steaming shit.

************

Smartlinks and Datajacks: this is what Frank was getting at with the Ends of the Matrix that he did. I don't have a problem with that issue because it is easy to take away non-cyber stuff (hence why mages scare the crap out of the PTB). After my group got hit by tear gas the first time they learned that contact lenses = the suck. Goggles are good but can't be concealed.

************

Custom Spells: never really seen a point. There are so many good spells in the core books that mages don't usually ever earn enough karma to get everything they want. I suppose if you don't initiate or at the 200 karma mark your players will need this. No problem just template it.

Posted by: Critias Jun 28 2010, 05:41 AM

...

Nevermind. Not worth it.

Posted by: Ol' Scratch Jun 28 2010, 03:44 PM

Book definition of a Rigger.

"Riggers are a subset of hackers who focus on using and manipulating modern vehicles and drones."

SR4A p. 17. Your definition is your own, no matter how much you wish it wasn't.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 28 2010, 05:50 PM

Yes, the rewritten history of SR4.
I do not recall said definition in my Big Blue Book and I sadly do not have it with me here at work.

But anyway, this thread is about human briefcase bombs known as Spellcasters who can take out tanks with their minds.

BlueMax

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jun 28 2010, 07:37 PM

Actually they merged naturally over time. IIRC, in SR3 weren't there rules for Riggers taking over the security spiders system in a semi version of cybercombat?


Possible roles for mages based on spell selection, skills and conjuring:

Artillery
Sniper
Scout/infiltration
Face
Interrogator
Psycological warfare expert (illusions and mental manipulations)
Counter Magic
Force multiplication (via spirits)
Medic
Demolitions

But alot of these can be covered by others in the party too.

Posted by: Doc Chase Jun 28 2010, 07:39 PM

Hah, I remember the actual Doc Chase, the character. He was a medic mage. I don't think I ever actually had to use the spell - his biotech group was so good that his medkit took care of everything before magic even had to come into play.

Posted by: tagz Jun 28 2010, 09:03 PM

On the subject of custom spells, I've allowed them.

Typically they don't work out so well. Mostly because my players miss a detail or two about how magic works and they make a spell that turns out functionally worse then an existing spell.

For instance, a player made a spell called Void Object. This is what he came up with:

Void Object (Manipulation)
DV: (F/2)+4, Targeting: LOS, Type: Physical, Duration: Permanent
This spell removes a single object from existence. Objects may be no larger then Forcex2 in meters in diameter.

At first glance it seems really broken, but when you factor in Object Resistance and how permanent spells work... it becomes a non-elemental Ignite spell. Has the benefit of destroying it immediately rather then letting it burn to destruction, but the drain is higher and subsequently the number of turns it must be sustained longer. So basically, if the mage winked something gone, all it would take is breaking the mage's concentration (or geeking) before 24 seconds (minimum, not adding in force to beat OR yet) to make it wink back. Given the high drain code and speed of combat it couldn't be used too well for his intended purposes of making guns and armor disappear. He went a different way with the character. Has out of combat potential, but that wasn't what he was going for.

Really, most custom spells in my game have ended up like that. About the only ones that have worked well were the spells one character made that coated bullets in an elemental effect.

Posted by: BlueMax Jun 28 2010, 11:10 PM

Yes. the mage only has Heal on the off chance the First Aid roll is botched badly. There was a build on DumpShock that had 36 dice and the possibility to heal 10 boxes (adept).

Specialized, yes.
Awesome, definitely.


BlueMax

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 29 2010, 02:50 AM

Useful for anything else? Not Much...
But he was good at First Aid...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: biccat Jun 29 2010, 02:06 PM

While it's certainly possible to do this with a Mage (with a 20R Power Focus), it's also possible to do so with a 20F Panther XXL with EX ammo (11P, -6 AP), or an HMG (8P, -4 AP) firing full auto.

Is your mage walking around with a Force 3 Sustaining Focus, Force 3 Improved Reflexes, and a Force 4 Power Focus active? If so, then you would stand out like a candle in astral space, and just about any corp. security mage would look at you pretty closely. If not, then what were the Citymasters doing for the round that it takes to cast the spell (1st pass) and activate both foci (2nd pass)?

Finally, what was the other Citymaster doing while you were casting your Force 8 Powerbolts at the first? Did it sit there and wait for you to cast another spell?

Yes, mages are powerful, but this isn't D&D where you try to create the biggest, baddest character possible. In Shadowrun, there are always more powerful beings or corporations. A mage taking out that much will certainly draw attention, and you can expect Lone Star mages to get your astral signature and start an all-out manhunt for you.

Posted by: Traul Jun 29 2010, 03:40 PM

Hardly in 2 shots: with the Citymaster soaking an average 10 damage, this would require 7 net hits per shot.

Hardly at all: this would require 9 net hits to bypass the armor.

But it is pretty normal for a citymaster to be able to stand in front of anything but AV ammunition. What is not is for it to fall to spells like a jackrabbit.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 29 2010, 05:34 PM

Even with a power focus 2 you'd see the same thing though it is easier to miss the needed net hits. As I said I think in another post this was like a whopping 20 some karma into a game and I initiated twice for masking and extended masking so no standing out. But yes at the start you'd stand out. And hey the mages were the biggest problem for me in that session I nearly got spattered and would have been if I did not edge things on a bad roll since they had reflecting metamagic. I think I was 1 success off from being paste.

As for the other citymaster I was in our fairly well armored vehicle(it seems almost all vehicles in 4e are) and shooting through the window. We had a pretty good driver and it provides decent protection so I easily had a turn to suirvive especially given it was hard to specifically target me in that situation. And we had some people on foot blowing the crap out of things to cause a distraction.

Funny you brought up D&D. Because 1 it is very much like D&D replace run with dungeon and its pretty solid comparison for many households. As bad ass as you get there usually always was something more bad ass out there, except maybe the end, end game but in 2e and earlier that was after 5+ years of gaming. And 2 until recent editions they both seemed to have a similar philosophy on mages. You have unlimited advancement but you start off weaker and have to earn it. In basic through 2e how bad ass was your level 1 mage, now how bad ass was your level 13+mage? That is a type of game balance that I personally am fine with, though others don't like. More recent editions have moved away from that style of balance and you can look to 4e D&D for an example. Balance at all levels, joy. SR gives mages the comparative to other archetypes unlimited super bad ass powers in the end game especially in 4e where it is the only area of unlimited advancement, but they don't really start off weak. Exactly how does this balance out again?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 29 2010, 05:38 PM

While vehciles are a bit of an edge case it does bother me that citymasters fall almost as easily as jackrabbits for spells. In previous editions I do not remember that, though the manifest your spirit inside things always worked. But combat spells failed hard vs cars IIRC or at least it was a lot harder to pull off. In 2e the ram spell actually worked better vs inanimate objects than other spells but still a citymaster was probably out of your league.

Posted by: Inpu Jul 13 2010, 02:29 PM

I know this topic has faded into the background a bit, but it surprises me people focus on one thing being more powerful than another in Shadowrun. Balance never seemed to be the concern when I looked at the system: like a number of other systems, such as a lot of Old White Wolf, you are the master of your field and lack elsewhere.

Magic is incredibly powerful, but then everyone had the option to buy it at their character creation. Furthermore, the game rewards clever players: why fight the mage on his terms, in line of sight so he can fry your brains, when you can hack the PAN of the gun-toting buddy next to him and wreak havoc? Drones limit mage options a little by virtue of not being alive, and you can always use your environment to your advantage, such as blasting a hole through a wall to get around the mage.

Nine out of ten times, your own party will likely have a mage as well. With good tactics, such as spreading your ranks, and a little creative building, such as taking options that up your spell resistance in character creation, you are pretty much set. At least, as much as anyone will be. Prepare for the eventuality of running into a Mage and you are already ahead.

Besides, at the end of the day, you always have the option of landing an Ares Dragon on the mage. Or crashing it onto him, which works too.

Posted by: Lansdren Jul 13 2010, 02:32 PM

Granted abit necro, but I have to say well said

Posted by: Cabral Jul 13 2010, 05:28 PM

Ol' Scratch, I was going to comment that I could see your point in regards to Riggers as VCR equipped drone jockeys are in short supply, but with the quote you provided, VCRs do not define Riggers.

Perhaps your point was that they are no longer broken out as a distinct archetype and thus are "dead"?

By the way the gear that let Deckers hijack a spider's network was from Corporate Security Handbook. I think the same book also was the first appearance of fiberoptic mage goggles. (Look! Mageyness! That counts as on-topic, right?)

Posted by: BlueMax Jul 13 2010, 05:56 PM

This topic is one more reason why I think the Shadowrun community needs more mixing. Everyone I play with nearby is strongly in the "Spells are strong, if not too strong" camp. Yet, other areas have different opinions.

Its a darn tooting shame there is so little Shadowrun support outside the two Indiana cons. Or is it a darn tootin shame I don't live in Indiana?

BlueMax

Posted by: CanRay Jul 13 2010, 06:09 PM

First rule of combat in the Sixth World: Geek the Mage.

Second rule of combat in the Sixth World: Geek the Ork with the big gun.

Third rule of combat in the Sixth World: If you're an Ork with a big gun, get a magician partner.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 13 2010, 06:13 PM

Or be an ork ghoul mage, who uses a panther as their standby weapon.

Posted by: Inpu Jul 13 2010, 06:45 PM

Thank you.



I was thinking that myself.




Still, as rules go, those aren't bad ones. Where does "Always have a hacker handy" weigh in?

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Jul 13 2010, 06:50 PM

Someone's sig has "DGIF" which is : Drones Go In First.

Hey we should start a thread on shadowrunning rules.

Posted by: Inpu Jul 13 2010, 09:31 PM

Good idea. I'll do just that.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32017

Posted by: The Grue Master Jul 13 2010, 09:38 PM

Doesn't the Panther use its own Assault Cannon class of ammo?

Posted by: Cheops Jul 13 2010, 09:53 PM

Holy Shedim attack Batman!

I was pretty pleased when the group that I am running now ended up with 2 adepts and no mages out of 5 players.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 13 2010, 10:23 PM

yes it does.