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Posted by: Tanegar Jun 27 2010, 07:50 AM

Is the extra cost for customized cyberlimbs (+¥1500 per Attribute point) applied before or after the cost multiplier for improving the limb's grade? The former would seem more in line with the spirit of the rules, but leads to (potentially), a ¥285,000 limb (Base cost ¥15,000, +3 Agility, ¥4500, +3 Body, ¥4500, +3 Strength, 4500 = ¥28,500, deltaware x10 = ¥285,000). My gut reaction is that this is excessively punitive.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 27 2010, 08:36 AM

I fail to see a problem with that math, deltaware is supposed to be expensive and that human arm is nothin combared to a maxed out troll arm that would cost about 200k more

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2010, 12:28 PM

Yes. I dunno why people think a Troll should be able to get a 'normal' arm for himself as cheaply and easily as a human. It's not fair, it's capitalism.

Posted by: Sengir Jun 27 2010, 06:18 PM

Spare parts for a Porsche cost more than Yugo or Trabant parts...

(ignoring availability problems )

Posted by: DrZaius Jun 27 2010, 06:39 PM

I've made a bunch of custom cyberlimbs recently, and they come out to be about 30 grand. Buying anything at deltaware is expensive...

Posted by: Ryu Jun 27 2010, 06:48 PM

There is only on delta-limb (maybe a pair) made specifically for you. This one is stretching the limit. The price is a bargain if you want it.

Posted by: Traul Jun 27 2010, 07:36 PM

My next troll will call humans Trabants

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 27 2010, 07:41 PM

Not sure why you could not get a Full Set Delta Limb Replacement (Including the Torso and Head Frames)... What exactly are you trying to say here?

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Mäx Jun 27 2010, 07:44 PM

He's saying that customised deltaware cyber limbs are one of kind items, so that price is pretty much a bargain.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jun 27 2010, 07:48 PM

This is why Deltaware in my game is mostly a Corporate gimmick. My last major Corp NPC had personal assistants who were using synthetic limbs at Deltaware. Looked Human, damned lethal if you crossed them. Checking my notes here, about 2.3 million nuyen worth of implants in each one, per RAW. Null perspiration for a megacorp, naturally, but some gutterpunk mercenary? I scoff, sir!

Posted by: Ravennus Jun 27 2010, 07:48 PM

I could be wrong, but it sounds like Ryu is Tenegar's GM, and he's basically saying...
"In the game, you have the opportunity to get access to a delta clinic and have one (maybe two) cyberlimbs implanted. Take it or leave it, but the price is a bargain."

Meanwhile Tenegar did the math, and realized that once he/she customizes the limb and applies the deltware cost multiplier... it gets a tad expensive. Still a bargain (deltware-wise), but probably a lot more than Tenegar bargained on.


Of course, I could be totally wrong.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 27 2010, 07:52 PM

And thats still using cheap implants, for example Deltaware Synaptic Booster 3 alone costs a whopping 2,4 million .

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 27 2010, 07:59 PM

Gotcha...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Manunancy Jun 27 2010, 08:00 PM

I woulf think that it's easier to cram a given strength into a troll-sized limb than an human one - with space less of a premium you can use bulkier systems to save cost. This would apply to a lesser degree to a cyberlimb designed for orks. Dwarves would get the short end of the stick there.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jun 27 2010, 08:14 PM

We were playing with the old rules, where Cultured Bioware is automatically considered to be Deltaware.

When bioware was first introduced, it was explained that while most bioware was simply cloned from a Type-O baseline, it was possible to have it grown specifically to your genetic profile, as Cultured Bioware, which used the rules for Deltaware. This was implied to involve growing a clone of you in a tank, so assume the process was both lengthy and expensive. Some mods, mostly involving the brain and nervous system, were so delicate they were only available as Cultured Bioware, and no better version existed.

This limitation did not make it into SR4; Augmentation p127 clearly states that Cultured Bioware is available in Alpha, Beta, and Delta grades.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 27 2010, 08:37 PM

i would see that more as technology improving the years between the editions making it so that even cultured bioware can be mad more essence friendly.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 27 2010, 09:00 PM

Wrong? Depends. I´m not a GM right now, and wouldn´t know Tenegar, but deltaware was/is available in my/our games. You just have to work for it. The chance to get deltaware will often come with a means of paying for it...

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 13 2010, 01:36 AM

On page 313 of SR4A, the last sentence under "Cyberware and Bioware Grades" reads, "Note that cyberware accessories must be of the same grade as the implant they are added to." Just to clarify, does the term "cyberware accessories" include everything that could be installed in an implant, i.e., everything with a Capacity cost?

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 13 2010, 02:03 AM

Tanegar, i was just going to point that out.

Cyberlimbs are very poorly worded, sometimes. I believe the -intent- of the rule is to make everything added on super expensive.

But..... Enhancements aren't accessories. Nor are Optimized limbs. There are actually several different categories of stuff you can slap on cyberlimbs - check out Augmentation.

Your mileage may vary.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2010, 02:08 AM

Except that Enhancements are Add-Ons to Limbs, and as such ADD a certain price to the base limb... now, if you want your limb to be Delta Grade, you add on your Stat/Armor enhancements/customizations to the base limb, and then you pay the multiplier for that Delta Grade Option (after your enhancements have been applied to the Limb itself)... any Other Cpacity specific items must also be the Same Grade, so you must purchase them at the same Grade as the limb that they are installed in... So a Delta Grade Cyberarm will not accept a standard grade Cyberarm Gyromount... you would have to spring for a Delta Grade Gyromount to put in your Delta Grade Arm...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Emy Jul 13 2010, 02:08 AM

In Augmentation, there's a specific category called "Cyberlimb Accessories". I treat that sentence as referring to those accessories.

It's by no means unambiguous, though.



Udoshi and Tanegar were just discussing the actual rules that determine whether or not this is the case. Perhaps you should review the information contained within their posts before making the above assertion.

Keep the Capital Letters to a Maximum

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 13 2010, 02:39 AM

If anything has to be the same grade, it's enhancements and optimizations, etc. The argument *might* be made that the commlink you slot into capacity does not, but I can't see anyone arguing that the Strength increase doesn't.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2010, 02:40 AM

Thanks for your concern; and yes, I saw the discussion...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 13 2010, 02:43 AM

You could indeed make that argument, but since a Comlink can take up capacity, it must be the same grade as the limb it is installed in, per the rules in the book...

There is a lot of flex in the interpretation if you want to push it a bit, I will admit, but it is not really all that unambiguous to me...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Emy Jul 13 2010, 03:08 AM

You can't? That's interesting.



That's not what the rules in the book actually say, though. Those rules state that "cyberware accessories" must be the same grade as the cyberware into which they're installed. Meaning that one group of items on Aug. p45 (which are specifically listed as accessories) must be the same grade as the implant to which they're added.

The book doesn't mention anything about items that "can take up capacity" being special. It calls out "cyberware accessories" as being special.

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 13 2010, 04:10 AM

The bit you're referring to in Augmentation says "cyberlimb accessories," while SR4A refers to "cyberware accessories." My question is, do things like cybereye add-ons (low-light, thermo, smartlink, etc.) have to be the same grade (and thus apply the same cost multiplier) as the implant they're added to?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 13 2010, 04:17 AM

One assumes 'yes', but one never 'remembers' to play that way.

Posted by: Emy Jul 13 2010, 04:18 AM

Cyberlimbs are a subset of cyberware, so cyberlimb accessories are necessarily cyberware accessories.

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 13 2010, 04:55 AM

But not all cyberware accessories are cyberlimb accessories. I'm referring to the general case, not the specific.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 13 2010, 05:04 AM

Actually the only thing which 'should' need to be delta grade is the interface between flesh and metal. The rest of the limb beyond that point shouldn't really matter. Rules say otherwise, but many, many rules in SR tend not to make a great deal of sense.

Posted by: Mongoose Jul 13 2010, 05:13 AM

Pheh, as if. If you want to fool the body / aura into thinking a limb is "human" (or simply minimize mechanical stress on the rest of the body) you need to do a lot of work to make the limb balance and move in a natural manner, and so on. With a stock limb, you can get away with simpler joint designs, for example, or making the lower limb a bit bulky.
Also, the to make the "interface" delta grade, you need to have high(er) performance sensors and controllers all through the limb. No point putting a drive by wire system on a jalopy, so to speak.
Making the entire limb more expensive is certainly justifiable. Now, if you wanted to talk about accessories (especially something like a built in comlink), then it gets a bit wonky.

Posted by: IKerensky Jul 13 2010, 08:49 AM

This kind of comments always make me roll eyes... If you dont care/trust what the rules says, why care about entering a rule discussion (not house rules nor proposed rules amendment).

Rules can be flawed but they have the absolute advantage to be the same for everyone, they are the only things that make us all play the same game and thus communicate/comment efficiently. If we dont play by the sames rules then how could we comment/advice peoples ?

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 13 2010, 10:39 AM

The Aura does not go all the way into the arm however. This is shown that you do not lose essence by amputating the arm. You lose essence when someone interfaces a cybernetic arm with your body, thus it is the interface which is the problem. Make that as kind as possible, and have a set of 'modular' arms that all hook up with a couple bolts and some USB 12 connections or something, and you should be good.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 13 2010, 10:51 AM

This kind of comments always make me roll eyes... If you dont care/trust what the rules says, why care about entering a rule discussion (not house rules nor proposed rules amendment).

The game makers have afterall make modular cyberlimbs which do pretty exactly what I said.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 13 2010, 11:04 AM

Modular parts have to be deltaware too if the connector is.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 13 2010, 12:48 PM

Given how semantically troublesome this game can be, I think only cyberware accessories need to be the same grade, and all the modular parts are cyberlimb accessories.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 13 2010, 12:49 PM

… And that cyberware accessories aren't cyberlimb accessories?

It's a lot more defensible to just say you don't care, than to argue that makes sense.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 13 2010, 12:56 PM

The game has plenty of instances where equivlent things are treated differently because they have different names, and very different things are treated the same way.
For examples vehicles don't have hardened armor, but there is no functional difference I am aware of between giving a vehicle regular armor and giving one hardened armor. Masking allowing you to look 'mundane' but it doesn't expressly state it allows you to turn an astral form into a simple aura, meaning it would make a duel natured creature appear to have a mundane astral form....

also, just back to the cyber limb accessories thing, who in their right mind would custom design a deltaware jackhammer just for someone with a modular limb? Some items simply don't make sense to come in delta grade.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 13 2010, 01:13 PM

Yes, but cyberlimbs are manifestly cyberware.

No, many things don't make sense. That's the argument I said was okay. But to argue that limb isn't ware is just silly.

I think the correct action is to say, 'screw it, doesn't make sense, rules unclear anyway'; but acknowledge that you're 'cheating'.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 13 2010, 01:26 PM

I cant tell if your agreeing with what i said or disagreeing.
From what you wrote it seems you do agree, but then i don't see the point of you writing that long ass sentence in the first place.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 13 2010, 02:37 PM

I feel somethings need to be bought at the ware of the limb, like strength upgrades, but slotting in a comlink, or jackhammer, not so much.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 13 2010, 09:45 PM

Then I suppose you won't mind if the Deltagrade discount is reduced or eliminated from ware that has limited interfacing with the nervous system. I mean, bone lacing is bone lacing and you can't improve the interface.

Your position reflects an assumption that Essence is a representation of the impact on your physiological system when Shadowrun is a game of dualities. Just like the physical is reflected on the astral, and to a degree, vice-versa, Essence cannot be viewed as one half of that dual nature.

I have no issue saying your Delta arm can have standard grade mods. I also have no issue charging Essence loss based upon the lowest grade component in your cyberware.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 14 2010, 07:51 AM

Actually my problem with the bone lacing is because its installed via nanites, and there is no real 'surgery' to install it persay, I think it should be dirt cheep to begin with. You are correct in assuming I don't feel it should come in 'grades' but then again, titanium coated on calcium phosphate is bio-invisible, and you body should be completely unable to recognize its there, so unless human spirits are allergic to titanium, there is no reason for it to have the essence cost it does.


My position reflects the fact that the essence system in SR is terribly broken, and I do not mean in any munchkin sense of the word. I mean in that there is no internally consistent explanation for how it works which does not rely on the phrase 'its magic'.


I too have no issue allowing someone to fit any grade of mod into a cyber limb they want. There may be interface issues and the like, but it should be 'possible'.

Posted by: darthmord Jul 14 2010, 01:06 PM

We've always played it such that any accessory for any piece of cyberware must match the grade of the base unit of cyberware. So if you have Delta eyes, your eye accessories must be delta as well.

As for Bone lacing... it changes the aura because it's implanted into the body. It's sufficiently invasive that it registers in your Aura. That's what Essence is... a metric to measure the overall changes to your aura.

Besides, your body is the physical representation of your astral self / aura. Changes made to one affect the other.

Should the prices for bone lacing change? That's a different discussion. But having them present is perfectly valid.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 14 2010, 01:32 PM

Statements like this beg the question, of what happened before the awakening? Since no one had auras because there was no magic to generate them?

Posted by: Cabral Jul 14 2010, 02:29 PM

Says who? Just because an even higher percentage of the populace lacked the ability to interact and perceive them, does not mean that they were not present.

Immortal Elves
Reiki / faith healers
Fortune tellers
That bad give you get when you walk into certain areas...
These could all possibly be examples of aura interaction and/or sensitivity pre-awakening. Well, in the case of IEs, during the fifth world, I don't know how much of their Adept abilities they retained from the fourth world.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 14 2010, 02:58 PM

Given Faith healers, Fortune tellers, and that bad feeling, all have rational non supernatural explanations, I don't really see their existence in the 5th world proves much of anything. I understand the game wants some form of balancing mechanic to keep the total amount of cyber ware down, but I just don't think saying your soul gets emo and leaves is a terribly good one. Using essence as a measure of how 'accurately' one's body reflects their spirit has a whole host of problems including stagnating biological adaptation, and preventing organ and tissue cloning.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 14 2010, 09:23 PM

That's likely because the literal explanation is that it is, in fact, magic. The backstory and fluff all handwave Essence loss as damage to the astral presence of a living thing, without which it cannot survive. To the best of my knowledge, it has always been tied more to degree of inhumanity then to medical impact. It is not science, it is magic.

Of course, as players, we can look behind the curtain at *why* Essence loss is in place - it is a deliberate power cap on cyborg characters. More specifically, with cyberware grades, it allows that cap to be overcome to a degree with sufficient money. RAW, that cap is in place; you're welcome to houserule around it if you want.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 14 2010, 11:38 PM

If you dismiss Immortal Elves, and various potential expressions pre-6th world expressions of magic, then it is not a wonder why Essence doesn't make sense.


Not really. Mana/the Aura interacts on the genetic level. (Source Augmentation?) Given the awakened creatures that appeared, I would say, it accelerates biological adaptation, but that could simply be re-emergence of pre-existing awakened variations. And tissue cloning is not an issue as that explicitly is not an impact on Essence.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 05:30 AM

The unthought of impact of essence scores however is that no organism can now undergo any significant level of genetic change. In effect evolution becomes impossible. Bacteria can not develop immunities to antibiotics because doing to would cost them enough essence to kill them. Same for viruses and anti-viral medications. That's just the microscopic level. Vitas could never have come about, and most of the biological agents which the game freely admits exist could not. Tissue could not be cloned, nor could bioware be engineered. Having essence relate how closely your body matches its ideal prototype also falls flat on its face when dealing with severe injury. You do not lose essence if I cut both your legs off, but you do for having cyber limbs attached. Having body parts missing or malformed because of surgery, birth defect, injury or any other number of reasons does seems to effect your essence. 'Fixing' these problems however does. The a child who was deformed due to a congenital birth defect has 6 essence, dispite the fact his body does not match his genetics or his idealized 'template', another child, who's parents were engineered, and who's body DOES match his genetics, does not have 6 essence.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 05:35 AM

Its the fact its still possible which is the problem. If I have the 'right' collection of cyberware, most of my body can still be original, yet I'm missing enough essence my soul gets sad, and leaves. On the other hand, its possible to have a cloned heart tied to a machine, so that almost all of its 'body' is not set up according to any template, and yet the clone heart remains alive. The emergence of awakened creatures to my understanding was for the same reasons as it was for the other metahumans,(although I'm prepared to be wrong), but I thought it was simple reactivation of preexisting genetic elements, by novel folding partners in the creatures DNA caused by new astral shadows as a result of the increased manna?

If I'm mistaken about that part, I apologize.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 05:35 AM

double post

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 12:43 PM

Mordinvan, sounds like you're making assumptions and then refuting them. That's never a good practice. Essence is magic, and yes, it barely makes sense; so?

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 01:01 PM

Not exactly sure what you mean by that?

Posted by: darthmord Jul 15 2010, 01:08 PM

Organisms most certainly can. If it's entirely natural for the organism to adapt to its surroundings, then adapting to antibiotics is part of its genetic code and Named expression.



Care to explain this assertion? Vitas could have been a pandemic much like we've seen in reali life. Smallpox was responsible for a large number of human deaths in our own recent history.



No change if you lose them because you are not changing the basic you. It's still all natural how nature intended (albeit missing a few parts). Yet if you install implants, you are instituting a biochemical change which changes the fundamental nature of the body.



You are conflating issues. A child born with a genetic defect *IS* born within *their* genetic profile. Just because it is regarded as a failure by people in no way changes whether or not the child is ideal under its own template. It's just a statement that its template isn't like most other people's. It's different. Like life. Sometimes differentiation results in unworkable / non-viable combinations.

That said, I do believe the reason the gene engineered parents having a child whose essence isn't 6 is a powergaming restriction. Otherwise, everyone and their brother would be creating runners whose parents were gene-engineered just to get bioware freebies. It's a restriction against powergaming IMO.

That said, I can still see the gene engineering causing issues downstream. If you accept Earthdawn as being the previous age of magic, the gene engineered humans aren't Named as such. they are still Named as being unaugmented humans and thus out-of-sync with the universal template for humans.

But honestly, if this is such an issue for you, change it for your game and let the rest of us be with our satisfaction of the game.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 01:17 PM

I mean that the 'problems' you're referring to seem to be invented by you, not the game.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 01:31 PM

Unfortunately simply being what you're genes say you should be is not good enough, because if it was second generation geneware would not cost essence. Since it does, genetic mutations which remove one from their 'named' template, which would include pretty much ALL mutations are problematic.


Yes smallpox was, however Vitas is as far as I know a reasonably new virus, meaning it most likely underwent some fairly significant genetic changes recently.


Actually, no your not changing the bodies biochemistry. A cyberware infact is actually reasonably unlikely to change much of your biochemistry in most cases anyway. What WILL however do it almost all the time is bioware.


I never said genetic defects, I said congenital. The body for some reason does not develop as it was genetically programed too. This is a fault assumption on your part. Many of the defects which can occur during pregnancy are rare 'errors' which occur due to injury, chemical contact, or just random low probability cell chemical signaling errors. It is entirely possible, and highly probable that a clone of this individual would develop into a healthy adult human being, and not have said defect present.


Its a restriction which makes the concept of essence of biological dead end. It demonstrates that genetic changes from one generation to the next are in fact detrimental to the long term health of the organism.


Except I can point to real world humans who could the genes needed for augmented muscles, bones, eyes, and many other beneficial mutations.


Hey I'm just asking for an internally consistent explanation. If you're good with a game world that looks like swiss cheese, then i'm happy for you.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 01:33 PM

It's a mechanical rule with a little fluff spraypainted on. Surprise!

Your whole argument is based on the Genetic Heritage quality?

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 15 2010, 01:45 PM

As has been said before, the system does not impede evolution - natural changes to your basic template do not cause Essence loss, while unnatural ones do. It's kind of like SURGE, or Metatypes: Trolls do not lose essence for having augmented physical abilities, or natural armor - they are Trolls. A Human, modified to have the same stats, is no longer quite human. The interesting thing with bioware is that some of those unnatural changes can be passed down through the germ line. It is still unnatural...from a magical perspective.

The internally consistant explanation you are asking for is that it is a game rule, a conceit to make full cyborgs uncommon. It is also a dramatic device, emphasizing the loss of humanity as one modifies himself, which is a holdover from the days when Shadowrun was a more dystopian world. As I (and others) explained before, there is nothing internally inconsistent with Essence, because it is simply not based on science. It doesn't make a lick of difference if your implant is biologically traumatic or not, or if the interface is active or passive, or if the change is cloned tissue or polished chrome. That is not why you lose Essence.

Essence loss is caused by changing what you are. That is all.

Posted by: darthmord Jul 15 2010, 02:03 PM

I do have to add that in Man & Machine (iirc), the process of implanting was described and that certain biochemical changes had to be made in order to interface the machine with the man.

It also explained that was why cyberware andd other assorted implants have a deleterious effect upon living organisms.

Also, the universal template for organism X isn't that narrow. Look at humans. We naturally come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, colors, pigments, hair, etc. Some are born with 12 fingers, most with 10.

It's a wide genome with a great variability for expression. That genome also allows for certain levels of mutations to occur. Improvements that occur naturally within that range of expression incur no harm to Essence.

Granting improvements to the organism outside of that range incur harm to Essence. Your Pattern has started to deviate from the Pattern the Universe expects for your type of organism.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 03:05 PM

The problems are due to totally inconsistent applications of what causes essence loss, and even the idea of what essence loss is.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 03:13 PM

Meaning 'what' exactly? How does magic know the difference 2 generations down the line between an engineered gene, and a natural one? More importantly if genetic engineering causes essence loss, how do 'transgenic art' organisms, or any of the other ton of engineered creatures even exist?


Excellent, changing what I am, so what happens if I have always been this way? second generation geneware?

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 15 2010, 03:27 PM

...you blame your parents, same as everybody else.


You seem really pissed off about magic. Are you sure you wouldn't be happier playing http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/SRGEPromo.pdf

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 04:06 PM

Actually I'm not pissed off about most of the magic system, as the way most of it is explained makes some sense, and is internally consistent. The parts involving its interactions with technology, and essence loss however, are woefully inadequate.

Posted by: Walpurgisborn Jul 15 2010, 04:27 PM

I tend to think of it as two-fold, in order to make sense. For those people who have genetic heritage, the needed changes require significant early medical care/microsurgery to be effectively active. Sure you have that adrenal gland, because that was passed down, but you didn't end up with the lymphatic system to support it. Most of your childhood and adolescents were spent correcting the issue. Probably not supported in anyway by rules or fluff, but it makes sense to me

in regards to corrective surgery on children, I assume that, like their neurology, a child's aura and essence are unformed and only start to solidify as they age. Neural damage in infancy and early childhood can be self-corrected to a greater degree, but it stops being possible later in life.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 15 2010, 05:10 PM

I don't see the gene work they would be capable of being that sloppy.


Which confuses me in light of your first statement in this post.

Posted by: Walpurgisborn Jul 15 2010, 05:21 PM

except you'r not dealing with one germ line, you're dealing with two. Sure, you have your daddy's adrenal gland, but you got your mothers lymp nodes.



Adolescence != early childhood.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 15 2010, 06:34 PM

The genetic code has a mana shadow that affects the final metagenetic expression. At this time (2070), we are newly aware of that man shadow (or at least 4th edition is the first I remember identifing "mana genes"). We have not been able to "view" them, let alone decode them or manipulate them.

As such, when you inherit genetic manipulations from your parents, it is vastly different than natural genetic mutation. The mutation will extend naturally onto the mana shadow. That is not to say that Essence won't be affected - critters vary in Essence - just that the mutation will affect the mana shadow's ideal template.

To argue that inherited genetic manipulation should not cost Essence is akin to arguing that a human with Muscle Aug 1 should not lose Essence until he exceeds normal maximums, but HOW you get there is as important, if not more important.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 15 2010, 07:48 PM

I'm not sure if the issue is that you understand the Essence system and don't like it, or if you are confused by it. Just in case it is the second one, I'm going to take one last shot at explaining it.

Shadowrun is set in a world of magic. No matter what your real-world religious beliefs, it is incontrovertibly proven in this game world that every living thing has an astral presence, a "soul". If this astral presence is removed, for instance if a projecting mage is trapped or killed, the body will not survive.

When you change your physical body to something other then your natural astral presence, you lose the cohesion between the two. If your arm is amputated, it still exists; it is still a part of your body, magically speaking. If you replace it with cyberware, you have changed your physical identity - you are not a man missing an arm, you are a man with a cyberarm, and cyberarms do not have a magical presence. As your physical identity diverges from your magical identity, you lose Essence.

This all comes back to the idea of Cartesian Dualism - that the identity, mind, or self is a distinct entity that is not inherently connected to the body. If you lose an arm, does it make a difference to who you are? Dualists say no. This is contested by advocates of holistic medicine, who assert that making massive changes to the body will indeed make changes to the self. There is a debate about where the line between body and self is, if it even exists - you think nothing of clipping hair or toenails, and we assume that tonsils or an appendix can be removed, but what about things like adrenaline or testosterone? There are parts of the body that certainly change the way the mind operates.

So how is Dualism/Holism connected to Essence? Shadowrun has embraced the holistic view of the body as a part of the self; no matter what change you make to the body, you are changing your self. We also accept that the self is tied to an astral presence which is needed for survival. As the self gets further away from that astral presence, that connection is stretched thin, and eventually snaps. Just as a mage who dies in Astral leaves his body to die, a Cyborg whose body can no longer support an astral presence will die.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 05:14 PM

The genetic heritage quality is actually the linch pin of where the essence explanation falls apart yes.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 05:18 PM

And? Lets say muscles are augmented via an induced myostatin mutation. That Mutation already exists in the human population, and is a 'natural' albeit very rare variation in the human species. Why would it cost me essence to have something I inherited which is already in some places a natural part of the species.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 05:24 PM

Except I can point to a number of natural human mutations which mimic those offered by gene ware very closely which exist in the population, but do so in very low levels. The geneware used to create the same effects in humans would likely induce those mutations, and as such would be indistinguishable from the naturally occurring mutations.


Muscle augmentation has an analogous naturally occurring mutation in the human population. Inducing this mutation via virus would result in children who are completely identical to those who received the gene natrually.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2010, 05:31 PM

Indistinguishable how? By DNA testing? Or by the mystic powers of the Universe that aren't really understood?

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 05:34 PM

So at what point did having organelles cease costing bacteria essence and allowed them to become eukaryotes? At which point did being a single cellular colonial organism cease costing essence and allow a single multicellular organism to exist? At which point did monoculture multicelular organisms get to start to having differentiated cell types without it costing them essence to allow for the creation of tissue types and organs? ect... Each of these steps are fairly significant changes, and unless the universe is intelligent and predictive, it wouldn't have seen them coming, to 'adapt' the template to allow for it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2010, 05:36 PM

Are you saying it's not?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2010, 05:51 PM

Lost Cause there Yerameyahu... Lost Cause...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2010, 06:00 PM

Hehe. My point is that it's a fictional universe that Mordinvan is making many assumptions about. The thought process is very simple: mechanics first, then fluff. If the mechanics show that Essence works X, Y, and Z, then *that* is what you have to go on. You can't be mad that (in-game) reality is *wrong*. Instead, your assumptions are wrong. Change them.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2010, 06:04 PM

No doubt... there are a lot of things in Shadowrun that are odd...
But I sure hate injecting that troublesome Reality into the Game... That way leads madness...

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 06:38 PM

Given that bacteria can still become resistant to new antibiotics, I'm going to say "yes"

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 06:39 PM

Until demonstrated otherwise.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 06:42 PM

I find correcting the problems tends to make things slightly less maddening.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2010, 06:47 PM

To each his own I guess... I just see it as a game and move along...
Do you change the rules for Monopoly because you have issues with the economics of the game? Or do you just play it?

Posted by: Cabral Jul 17 2010, 06:47 PM

An unnatural parallel to a naturally occurring mutations is not a naturally occurring mutation. As such, you cannot assume that the same truths apply to both.

You are assuming that Essence is a purely physical trait, completely explainable about modern science. This is not an assertion presented, or even supported, by the rules. If maintain this unsubstantiated definition of Essence, of course it will conflict with the books.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 06:50 PM

I tend not to play games which are that simplistic, unless they involve ZOMBIES.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 17 2010, 06:53 PM

This one has Trolls.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 06:53 PM

I'm actually saying inducing the same mutation as that which occurs naturally should be indistinguishable. Given that DNA casts an astral shadow which effects how the DNA folds, which effects its astral shadow,(wash rinse repeat), it does in fact come down to DNA being a large contributing factor. If the DNA for a given gene between 2 individuals were born with is identical, there is no reason for one to be charged essence for it, while the other is not.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2010, 06:59 PM

Well, you miss out on a lot of fun that way...
My personal Favorite, simplistic game, is "Ebola Monkey Hunt," unfortunately, there are no Zombies...
But No Worries...

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 07:03 PM

Well monkeys can be good too. Especially if they are monkey pirate zombies, but sadly only one movie I am aware of was ever that awesome.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2010, 07:03 PM

Heheheh... Point Taken...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2010, 07:07 PM

Just because you think it should work a certain way doesn't mean that's how it works. You're just making up guesses, then getting mad that they're wrong.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 07:25 PM

Actually if anything I'm 'mad' because their explanation for how it works is not internally consistent. Either second generation genetic changes cause essence loss, at which point every species on the planet is doomed to extinction rather soon, or they do not, at which point genetic heritage shouldn't either. If changes to your bodies pattern causes essence loss, then its having a limb removed which causes essence loss, etc.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2010, 07:27 PM

You forgot the 3rd Choice there... It could just not matter at all in the long run of things, and these are just Edge Cases.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2010, 07:30 PM

So little creativity. Maybe it takes more than just one generation to be cosmically integrated. Maybe 2, 3, 7, 14… You have no idea (neither do I), but I'm happy to admit it. In addition, the Genetic Heritage quality is a game rule for game characters within game balance; there's no reason to use it as your basis for the grand theory of essence.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 07:35 PM

given how I've seen other people base their grand theories of X in shadow run based on even less, I'm not really sure that's an applicable statement.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2010, 07:37 PM

It is.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 08:24 PM

If you say so, but as the game states genetic modification, even across generations costs essence, I can't really see where the my assumptions that this would be 'bad' for any species as a whole is unwarranted.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2010, 09:14 PM

Across a generation, for that quality, and for artificial genetic changes.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 09:41 PM

As the artificial genetic chances can be done using the same mechanisms nature can use to install new DNA in our genome, ie retroviral insertions.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2010, 09:45 PM

That's true. So? Still artificial. It's magic.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 17 2010, 10:12 PM

[REDACTED]

Posted by: Cabral Jul 17 2010, 10:36 PM

Except that they are not the same mechanisms. The flaw is your assumption, not the internal consistency.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 17 2010, 11:57 PM

So they are not done using retroviruses? Odd because in the fluff text describing how genetic changes are made, it says they ARE done using retroviruses.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 18 2010, 12:03 AM

Doesn't matter. It didn't happen naturally, therefore it's not exactly the same.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 18 2010, 01:03 AM

Well it didn't happen 'supernaturally', so it happened 'naturally', those really are your only 2 options.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 18 2010, 01:06 AM

Nope. It's artificial. For the 6th time.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 18 2010, 01:27 AM

Actually, it happened because someone performed the surgery... this is not Natural, nor is it Supernatural... It is a contrived organism made by man...

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 18 2010, 02:14 AM

If you're going to claim it is somehow an astrally registrable 'intent' on the part of the genetic engineer which leaves behind the stain which steals your soul, then have the virus designed, and built in a lab where the only sentient organism is an A.I., and that way there will be no astral signature to it, aside of that of inert chemicals.

edit:
Made by man, ok, so hypothetically speaking, and ERV wakes up in person X, and manages to destroy both copies of their myostatin gene, thus generating someone with a 'fully natural' equivalent of muscle augmentation 4. This person marries someone else who has atleast 1 copy of that gene inactivated, and they have a child, who winds up as a result with 2 nonfunctional copies of that gene. As a result this child from conception has muscle augmentation 4.
]
Contrast with

Person Y goes to a genetics lab, and has their copies of myostatin inactivated by a synthetic copy of the same ERV which hit person X. As a result they have muscle aug 4 too aswell now. Person Y marries the identical twin of the individual person X did. They have a child who from conception has 2 inactive copies of the myo statin gene, and as a result they too have muscle augmentation level 4.

Both children carry the same mutations, inflicted by the same virus, and you are trying to tell me one of them has less essence because one of their parents was exposed to someone 'intending' something at some point?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 18 2010, 02:31 AM

Too much technobabble... Genehacks cost Essence in the immediate Offspring thereof... maybe that (the essence loss) does not carry to the 3rd generation, maybe it does... we do not know, because the technology is so new we do not have the knowledge derived from years and years of testing, nor do we have a 3rd generation human offspring from which to test any theories... it is all just conjecture at the moment.

KISS... the Motto to stand by...

Posted by: Gortrek Bloodsplatterer Jul 18 2010, 03:36 AM

I know this is jumping back a bit, but both enhancements for or customized Cyberlimbs would be subject to the Delta grade x10 multiplier. The only difference is that the enhancement would be cheaper but cost capacity and the customized cyberlimb would be +1,500 per additional point? I'm just trying to make sure I'm reading this right.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 18 2010, 04:56 AM

It's not the intent. The intent doesn't matter. It's a lack of understanding of the astral shadow. Sometime down the line, as science develops a sufficient understanding of the astral genetic code, the will be able to manipulate genetics with little or no impact on Essence. At that time, we may even have Essence free cyber and bio.

Think of it this way: The chromosomes actually have 3 strands. 2 strands we've known about for a long time and have decoded. The third, a set of astral markers we can't even perceive but can see their impact. At this point, manipulating this third set of markers is at the basic level early animal husbandry. A retrovirus used for genetic manipulation contains either no astral markers or an unpredictable set. I am going to assume the first. Either way, when it monkeys with your genetics, it creates a dissonance between the genetics and the astral markers. Things get out of whack and you lose Essence. For most of the populace, you get some mild side effects that are read to you in a pleasant voice at the end of the commercial. See their add in Augmented Health for more details. For the awakened, they get a kick in the mojo gonads.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 18 2010, 12:17 PM

Only problem with that is we use all the same enzymes, and chemical precursors to make a virus, that a virus uses to make a virus. So unless all retro viruses have the same problem, and you lose essence each time you contract one, and that essence loss is passed on to your kids (ps, humans have dozens of them stuck in our genome), this doesn't really work.

Posted by: darthmord Jul 18 2010, 01:45 PM

Just because the mutation occurs naturally doesn't mean the man-made version works the same AND appears identical to the natural mutation.

And yes there is reason for it to cost Essence. One was born with it naturally occurring while the other started with a value that was later re-written / overridden.

Methinks you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you don't like the fluff, change it. There's no need to bitch at the rest of us because it makes sense and we are okay with it as is.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 18 2010, 02:18 PM

That is exactly what I was saying... In my opinion, that is how it actually works, but there are some who actively disagree with my interpretation.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 18 2010, 02:21 PM

You are correct, in that it does not mean it DOES share the same codding as the natural mutation, but given the natural mutation integrates seamlessly into human physiology, there would be no reason not to replicate it.


As my primary complaint is bases on the idea of second generation geneware costing essence, the 'other' would have 'started' with the same value as the first.


Actually I'm 'arguing' because having studied genetics and heredity I can safely conclude it does not make sense as presented in augmentation. Also I an not bitching AT you, I am more pointing out how thus far every explanation I have been exposed to, for how this inconsistency occurs, is logically wrong, given the information known about how heredity works, and how SR itself explains the interactions of DNA with its own astral shadows.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 18 2010, 09:15 PM

Naturally occurring viruses (spell check says "viruses" is correct, but I thought it was "virii") have natural astral shadows. Manufactured viruses have unpredictable astral shadows. We've verified that that DNA or RNA tags match up but we can't even examine the Astral tags to see if they are the same or different, let alone manipulate them.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 19 2010, 03:21 AM

That's assuming they KNOW precisely how the "naturally occurring" version of a mutation works, and/or that they CAN replicate it.

That's a big assumption.

It may be that the flawed, "artificial" version, that incurs an essence loss, is the best they can do right now.



-karma

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 20 2010, 01:00 AM

Oh, The Horror of it all... Say it isn't so...

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 20 2010, 02:28 PM

I'm sorry but that doesn't really hold much water. If it was true then creating an entire fully functional synthetic genome would be impossible as if doing such modification to a single gene would cause essence loss significant enough to measure, doing it to a genome would never allow for a viable organism, yet SR has transgenic 'art' organisms for sale among others.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 20 2010, 03:02 PM

Sorry, but your dismissive post doesn't hold much water. The genetic modifications available in SR are not that pricey, Essence-wise and I don't believe the Essence values of any transgenetic creation is provided.

So, no, SR's Essence explanations ARE reasonably internally consistent and the only conflict is from your assumptions.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 21 2010, 12:41 AM

^^^ This...