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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ RL: APDS ammo for pistols
Posted by: Mäx Jul 7 2010, 06:09 PM
For those saying that its unrealistic that APDS ammo is availebul for all types of guns, heres http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/07/08/the-amazing-6-5x25mm-cbj/
That some nice armor penetration for a 9mm pistol, would be cool to get to shoot a few clip of that at armored targets. 
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 7 2010, 06:16 PM
Might be able to pick some up at a gun show. I was never expecting to be able to snag Hydra-Shok at one.
'Course, I went with the Remington silvertip hollow-point rounds. You never know when a werewolf is going to try to break in. 
Posted by: kzt Jul 7 2010, 07:03 PM
Good luck with that....
Title 18, sec 101 chap 44
§ 922 Unlawful acts.
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition,
unless such sale or delivery--
(A) is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of
the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political
subdivision of a State;
(B) is for the purpose of exportation;
or
(C ) is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized
by the Attorney General;
§921
(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun
and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces
of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys,
steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;...
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2010, 07:07 PM
Yeah, Well... That is just a suggestion though... Minor details at most... 
Keep the Faith
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 7 2010, 07:20 PM
Title 18, sec 101 chap 44 legal mumbo jumbo
Yes, because people at gun shows always follow the law.
I realize it's a military round (and you'd have to swap out the barrel on the nine in order to let it fire this stuff), but there are always ways to get a hold of it. It's a sweet round/PDW combo. A micro-UZI that can defeat body armor, low wear ammo with an aluminum jacket?
Any way you knock it, that's pretty damn cool.
Posted by: Martin_DeVries_Institute Jul 7 2010, 07:34 PM
Unless you're the one wearing the body armor.
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 7 2010, 07:41 PM
In which case, I would develop a lasting (not long, but lasting) hatred of the Swedish.
Maybe my tortured soul would haunt their manufacturing facility.
Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 7 2010, 07:47 PM
Hey, APDS used to always be described as being hard to get (what was the original shadowtalk about it? something about "found a couple of mags at Ft. Lewis once, but I had to use them up just to get out")... no reason to change that now 
Posted by: JohnNoSIN Jul 7 2010, 08:21 PM
when I bought my pistol the only rounds I could find for it were these weird copper shots. they didnt say they were armor peircing but they dont fragment when they hit so that all the force hits a small spot and wont break. they were really creepy kinda. also really kinda expensive at like a dollar and a half per shot. also I bought them at sheels so they are legal.
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 7 2010, 08:24 PM
What kinda pistol did you buy?
Posted by: JohnNoSIN Jul 7 2010, 08:35 PM
H&K USP 9mm
copper rounds are bad for the barrel though so I was sort of annyoed I had to use them. also they were expensive like I said.
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 7 2010, 08:45 PM
Reh? You can't find jacketed ammo where you are?
Cripes, order it off the internets. =P
Posted by: JohnNoSIN Jul 7 2010, 08:51 PM
Cripes, order it off the internets. =P
I can now. when I bought the gun there was a stupid shortage because people were freaking that obama was gonna come take their guns. so I couldnt find any ammo then but thats over.
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 7 2010, 08:54 PM
Oh! Ha! I remember that now.
Posted by: Neraph Jul 9 2010, 03:35 PM
Well, http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/barack_obama_gun_control.htm, although he hasn't made a move for it yet and the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of the 2nd Ammendment.
Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 9 2010, 03:48 PM
Not really. Obama is the president, not a legislator. Maybe there's some things he wouldn't have vetoed, but it's kinda breathtakingly silly that people genuinely start hoarding guns every time a gun control advocate gets into office.
Posted by: Sengir Jul 9 2010, 05:08 PM
Not silly, just good PR - create a scare out of thin air to make people buy your stuff, then when the imaginary threat fails to materialize take the credit for avoiding it with your "public awareness" campaign. And that doesn't just work with guns
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 9 2010, 05:11 PM
Pff. The time to hoard guns is when there's a pro-gun President in office; it drives the price down.
Posted by: Deadmannumberone Jul 9 2010, 05:25 PM
Yes, the smart people stock up when a pro gun Pres is in office, then make a tidy profit when it swings the other way.
Posted by: Sengir Jul 9 2010, 05:32 PM
Most major arms manufacturers are publicly traded, why haul around all that metal?
Am I the only one who just got an idea for a plot involving Ares and Horizon?
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 9 2010, 05:34 PM
Because they're fun to shoot. I still need to try out pop's PPK and dual 92F's he picked up recently...
Posted by: Martin_DeVries_Institute Jul 9 2010, 06:35 PM
Oh so true. And guns, in and of themselves, are just cool. Of course you don't have to take my word for it, http://www.theonion.com/articles/peace-activist-has-to-admit-barrett-50-caliber-sni,234/ agrees. (For a given value of "news.")
Posted by: LivingOxymoron Jul 9 2010, 06:39 PM
Not just a major news source, but "America's Finest News Source"
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 9 2010, 06:59 PM
There is never a shortage of stupid.
Posted by: phillosopherp Jul 9 2010, 07:01 PM
Your not supposed to bring reality into the conversation that is just not cool
Posted by: Dr.Rockso Jul 9 2010, 07:03 PM
In a RL gun thread? Nawwwww......
Posted by: Mäx Jul 9 2010, 07:42 PM
Thats just so hialious think to post on a topic titled Real Life.
Posted by: Daylen Jul 9 2010, 10:34 PM
Why do people get nervous and buy up arms when progressives get in power? Answer: they try and sometimes do outlaw or severely restrict arms at every chance. Below are some highlights
FDR entered office in March 4, 1933. National firearms act 26 June 1934. set us on some tracks heading to tyranny by establishing national control of an inalienable individual right.
Lyndon Johnson November 22, 1963 – January 20, 1969. Gun Control Act of 1968. Established more control and infringement of a fundamental freedom.
1986 machine gun ban was even inserted into progun legislation in the dead of night. Notice ban, so if someone didn't own one already the price was about to skyrocket.
Bill Clinton entered office January 20, 1993. Federal assault weapons ban of 1994. Again if someone didnt already own a qualifying firearm the prices were about to skyrocket from artificial shortages. The same went for magazines with capacity for more than 10 rounds. luckily this one had a sunset.
History has shown that yes bans and theft of freedom can happen even in America.
Posted by: Sengir Jul 10 2010, 10:37 AM
Hate to be the one to bring the bad news, but the excercise of all freedoms is regulated by laws
Posted by: Daylen Jul 10 2010, 07:55 PM
yes, hence why there are so many organizations working to protect what is left. that is getting away from my point though which is: there is plenty of evidence that when progressives gain more power watch out for your gun rights and there is plenty of reason for gun enthusiasts to buy all the guns they can. although you make a good point and the same could be said for all rights.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 10 2010, 09:04 PM
got to say, i always end up with a bit of cognitive dissonance when i encounter news about some weapon or ammo designed and made in the nordics.
Posted by: Dumori Jul 10 2010, 11:11 PM
Some of those rounds would be USA legal. Some don't fall under the armor pecering rounds law. Though I also doubt that said rounds are armor pecering. Also getting a modified barrel could be hard. And there's the question of weather the none AP rounds are even on par to normal 9mm.
I've not dug deeper than that article though, yet, so who knows?
Posted by: Daylen Jul 10 2010, 11:38 PM
they could possibly be imported. Armor piercing rounds can be made and purchased in the USA. Trick with that law is pistol rounds that are AP. So its not illegal until the round is put in a pistol. Same as when buying ammo they usually ask if its for a rifle or pistol. If the ammo is for a pistol the age limit is 21 for a rifle its 18.
Posted by: Dumori Jul 11 2010, 12:30 AM
It could well be for my modded 9mm SMG. I'm just wondering if the barrels would for handguns would be buyable due to the AP link sound like an easy way to keep the rounds out of pistols. Also sounds a bit like a dumb law from my eyes. I'm from the UK (go go OOT (soon to get worse) gun laws). Seeing as the rounds are legal for none pistols. The only reason the law exists would be to prosecute some one a bit more after the fact from my persective.
Posted by: Daylen Jul 11 2010, 01:33 AM
the law against AP rounds was done by idiot politicians in a climate with the antigun media crying about "cop killer" bullets being on the street. Even though many LE departments wanted the media to shut up about the new rounds since not many knew about them and the rounds were being marketed TO police, as in the company making them was not willing to sell to anyone but LE depts. Heck they even put in language outlawing the use of Teflon coatings because they thought the Teflon helped make the bullets pierce armor, instead of the reality that the Teflon was to reduce barrel wear. Also, the bullets were not as armor piercing as the media portrayed, in fact the ammo was designed for shooting through obstructions like windshields. The law does not apply to rifle ammo because rifle ammo is inherently body armor piercing and there it would have been alot harder here in the land of the free to put in a law that outlawed rifles or rifle ammo. So yes it is a very stupid law done by ignorant, blindly fearful (or possibly just evil) people.
Posted by: Dumori Jul 11 2010, 03:03 AM
Well to be frank your only really gonna Teflon coat a round that is hard as fuck. Those then to be made to go though body armour. Also yep that law is a pointless as I thought. I should likely be looked at.
Much like our contrys gun laws. There up tight and a mess! So far in the last few months we've had two high profile spree killings( I can only see a review of the laws the is some word of weakening them but I think a complete ban is more likely) and by the looks of things gun crime hasn't really dropped. Of cores it has a bit with all hand guns illegal and any none shotgun above .22 illegal. The completely retarded ban on mock katanas was an odd one. There was a spike in assaults with them so the where made illegal. Its damn hard to get a katna(that's as an effective a weapon as a tyre iron) now but a bastard sword(and not a shitty mock made of of candy) is easy.
Posted by: Daylen Jul 11 2010, 03:31 AM
You don't seem pleased with being in a country where the large and the many can overpower the physically weak without worry of the weak arming themselves. Why it would make being a bugler much easier, no worry that granny will have a pistol and know how to use it.
oh and I have some brass bullets that are not made to be armor piercing or for enhanced penetration, and I sure wish they were coated in something softer than brass. The rounds are Golden sabers by Remington.
Posted by: kzt Jul 11 2010, 04:54 AM
Golden Sabers have a brass jacket for controlled expansion. They do have a good rep, but the core is lead, it's not an AP round at all.
Posted by: Sengir Jul 11 2010, 10:23 AM
In Germany, pump-action shotguns with removable stock are illegal. If you reworked the weapon's action to semi-auto, it would somehow become less dangerous and therefore legal again...school shooting, government had to pretend to do something, the usual story.
And don't even get me started on the ban of "one-handed combat knives", which are supposedly (that is, according to the MPs responsible for the law) used by roving youth gangs to murder people by the dozens...
Posted by: MortVent Jul 11 2010, 11:35 AM
Makes you wonder how they would react if someone started going on killing sprees with golf clubs, cricket/baseball bats... etc.
Just think if the confusion of trying to ban those..
Oh wait isn't one of those countries banning sharp point kitchen knives?
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 11 2010, 02:31 PM
APDS doesn't mean "tungsten carbide cored", or "steel cored", which is what a real armor piercing round would be. APDS is "Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot", which basically means that the projectile is encased in another piece that flies out of the barrel of the weapon and is discarded while the projectile, which I guess is fin stabilized if I recall correctly, continues to fly to the target. It's like the sniper rifle in the first Halo. If you watched the firing animation closely you noticed something falling out of the barrel besides for the actual projectile.
So you could always get steel cored ammunition for your weapons, but that's not what SR APDS is. SR APDS is something ridiculous like a smaller diameter fin-stabilized pistol round that's been accelerated by coming out the barrel in an extra container. If someone did something that comically over engineered with a pistol in real life it would probably be so small and high velocity that it wouldn't cause very much trauma to a living target.
By the way, if you want to have solid object penetration from your pistol but don't want to pay ridiculous amounts of money for armor piercing rounds at a gun show, just go with 7.62 x 25 Tokarev. It has excellent penetration for a pistol cartridge. And it is really cheap. The only hard part is finding a pistol that fires it. But J&G Sales has one available right now!
Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 11 2010, 03:34 PM
i would say that from a engineering standpoint, the only real diff between a hard cored round, and a discarding sabot round, is when the outer shell is dispersed with. From what i can tell, the use of a hard core and a softer outer surface allows the core to be spin stabilized, just like any other pistol round, but when striking, will shed the outer coating on the armor, while the harder core continues on.
i suspect the APDS name of the SR round is more legacy then anything else, from back when writers made only lip service to physics and was overdosing on cool. So they did a quick check about how armor piercing rounds worked, found some bit about APDS, and typed that in as the name, having little care about how impractical something like that would be in a small round.
as for the crazy, overly specific, weapons laws, i would blame the combo of populist politics and scare-type high media.
end result is that something happens, media blows it out of proportions by way of scare-types, and the politicians in office go "i need to do something to retain the popular vote at the upcoming election!". If you want this fixed, get your local group to vote based on facts, not on popular emotions. And yes, that includes not buying into the whole "wha, they will take away our guns!" kinds of messages.
Posted by: Daylen Jul 11 2010, 03:55 PM
Well I bet you have a nice smug superior feeling after saying something that generic and lacking of any real detail, direction or substance.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 11 2010, 04:42 PM
sadly, when it comes to politics, there is no step by step guide with easy to understand pictures to follow.
Posted by: Daylen Jul 11 2010, 04:49 PM
yea there is. Don't vote for those who try to infringe upon individual rights, especially if they say its for the good of (insert a group here such as children).
Posted by: Sengir Jul 11 2010, 05:06 PM
Nah, non-voting doesn't really solve any problem...
@MortVent: No, not yet. And to be precise one-handed folding knives (which happens to include boxcutters and everything else) are "just" banned from carrying in public, which if anything makes the law even more laughable.
Posted by: MortVent Jul 11 2010, 05:08 PM
@MortVent: No, not yet. And to be precise one-handed folding knives (which happens to include boxcutters and everything else) are "just" banned from carrying in public, which if anything makes the law even more laughable.
Ah I do remember something about someone trying to ban sharp point kitchen knives after the gun bans over in the EU.
Plus I still want to see what happens when they turn to sports equipment...
"Well Tommy, we can't play cricket anymore ol chap. They dun outlawed the bats!"
Posted by: Mäx Jul 11 2010, 05:11 PM
So you could always get steel cored ammunition for your weapons, but that's not what SR APDS is. SR APDS is something ridiculous like a smaller diameter fin-stabilized pistol round that's been accelerated by coming out the barrel in an extra container. If someone did something that comically over engineered with a pistol in real life it would probably be so small and high velocity that it wouldn't cause very much trauma to a living target.
So i guess you didn't read the article i linked to at all.
Becouse 6.5x25mm CBJ really is a APDS pistol round for 9mm pistols/SMG:s.
Oh and that condesending tone is really not needed.
Posted by: Martin_DeVries_Institute Jul 11 2010, 05:12 PM
Yeah! What have children ever done for us?
Posted by: Dumori Jul 11 2010, 05:39 PM
@MortVent: No, not yet. And to be precise one-handed folding knives (which happens to include boxcutters and everything else) are "just" banned from carrying in public, which if anything makes the law even more laughable.
Is that UK or Germany? As I often leave the house with my swis army knife it has two folding bades both >3 inches I sure hope its not illegal to carry what is basicly a screwdriver and bottle opener around.
Also here's a good reason to point at al the inanes Rs and Fs on SR gear. We have it IRL so in SR it's just a sensible.
Posted by: Sengir Jul 11 2010, 05:46 PM
IIRC it was briefly discussed in the UK after a doctors' association called for it, but the idea failed to get political support and was shelved.
What followed was the usual reaction when a politician somewhere in the world makes a weird proposal, no matter how insignificant the guy is, or how broadly the idea was ignored: Several weeks later a commentator somewhere else in the world stumbles upon the story, writes a "look what looney law they are trying to pass today" story, the story quickly goes viral because it fits a preconceived notion of country X, and sooner or later the story evolves into "look what looney law has been passed today"
PS @Dumori: The German law bans carrying two kinds of knives:
- knives which can be opened with one hand and have a locking blade (for example...box cutters)
- fixed blades of more than 12cm length
There's also a general ban on OTF knives, nunchucks and a long list of other stuff, with an equally long list of exceptions
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 11 2010, 05:49 PM
Here in California a lot of "gang" weapons get banned. Switchblades, butterfly knives, shuriken(ninja movies) all not because of the danger but the image associated with them. Heck for a long time it was easier to get a gun than a taser, laws don't make sense in many cases.
Posted by: MortVent Jul 11 2010, 05:51 PM
I live in Ga... I go to walmart and get a 12 guage. It defeats 90%+ of the body armor available...
And with a sabot slug it has decent range too...
Posted by: Daylen Jul 11 2010, 06:28 PM
and dirt cheap!
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 12 2010, 02:58 AM
Heh. The first time many folks ever saw "APDS" rounds was in that movie Alien Nation, where a guy was using a shotgun loaded with APDS rounds. In a drum clip.
The movie kinda overstated their effect, though, having the rounds go through a steel engine block and blow open the chest of a cop hiding on the other side.
-np
Posted by: kzt Jul 12 2010, 04:26 AM
Shotguns have a lot of energy, it's a lot more likely that you could make an effective AP round than you could out of a handgun.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 12 2010, 05:36 AM
How you get a shotgun to be armor piercing:
1. Got to gun store.
2. Buy slug rounds.
3. Shoot at body armor.
Ta-da!
-karma
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 12 2010, 03:15 PM
if you ever get your hands on stuff (1) don't brag (2) don't waste it all on a target.
About a year ago I bought a RL PS90 carbine and 2 boxes of 5.7X28mm ammo. One box was normal but the other had blue tips and a higher charge 40 gr as opposed to 27gr. I havn't seen the higher charges since but at the range use the mosre commonly found lighter rounds.
Posted by: emouse Jul 12 2010, 03:41 PM
So what you're saying is don't vote for anyone?
Posted by: Creel Jul 12 2010, 04:23 PM
So you could always get steel cored ammunition for your weapons, but that's not what SR APDS is. SR APDS is something ridiculous like a smaller diameter fin-stabilized pistol round that's been accelerated by coming out the barrel in an extra container. If someone did something that comically over engineered with a pistol in real life it would probably be so small and high velocity that it wouldn't cause very much trauma to a living target.
By the way, if you want to have solid object penetration from your pistol but don't want to pay ridiculous amounts of money for armor piercing rounds at a gun show, just go with 7.62 x 25 Tokarev. It has excellent penetration for a pistol cartridge. And it is really cheap. The only hard part is finding a pistol that fires it. But J&G Sales has one available right now!
The CZ-52 is a 7.62x25 pistol built on the Makarov frame. It's a lot of fun to shoot, and can be converted to 9mm with a quick barrel change for variety. I like to load it with .22 bullets in a .30cal discarding sabot. Very velocity for a pistol, and tons of fun.
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jul 12 2010, 05:58 PM
About a year ago I bought a RL PS90 carbine and 2 boxes of 5.7X28mm ammo. One box was normal but the other had blue tips and a higher charge 40 gr as opposed to 27gr. I havn't seen the higher charges since but at the range use the mosre commonly found lighter rounds.
Cool, I shoot a few rounds on the PS90 awhile back, and enjoyed. What stopped me from buying one was the ammo cost and also the barrel length (something about the extension to make it legal rifle length always bugged me, the mp-5 carbine I have has the fake suppressor extension rather than just a long barrel) and instead I bought the FS2000 instead. Plus, yeah, the FS fires rifle rounds so less worries about any penetration.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 12 2010, 06:30 PM
I don't mind the longer barrell, it means it's more acurate. sure it would be cool to look just like the weapon from GitS but it's RL and I like accurate.
Over engineered by the nice guys at FN it's a wonderful example for SR of someone customizing a weapon so far that it is a great gun but horribly expensive. Designed as a carbine for tankers should they have to bail out the guys at FN kept overengineering it until the list price is over $1k each, for a back up weapon that will hopefully never be used, that's more than a front line rifle for an infantry man. The weapons are popular with specfocres but it never made it to the tankers.
Posted by: kzt Jul 12 2010, 06:56 PM
It's only $200 to get the permit to cut the barrel off...
Posted by: Daylen Jul 12 2010, 11:31 PM
and for the same price I think ya can have a real suppressor to save your ears.
Posted by: Daylen Jul 12 2010, 11:37 PM
No I'm saying don't put up with bullshit excuses that are used for taking away individual human rights. When a politician shows he is against individual liberty vote the bum out. When its all bums try helping someone who is not a bum (or has the potential to be a nonbum) get in office.
And yes I'm saying when anyone uses children as a scapegoat for taking away constitutionally protected (or really any other rights as well) rights they need to be ousted from office or any govt position.
Posted by: Daylen Jul 12 2010, 11:39 PM
nice sarcastic example of the strawman argument I am speaking about.
Posted by: Johnny Hammersticks Jul 12 2010, 11:55 PM
Does this frustration against politicians who limit our freedoms carry over to the war on terror/patriot act or is it just guns?
I'm with you basically re: those who try to limit our freedoms, but I'm more concerned with privacy, speech and religion.
Posted by: Method Jul 13 2010, 12:07 AM
Just a friendly reminder that discussions of real world politics are against the ToS, since they tend to degenerate into heated (and unfriendly) debates. Please stick to discussing SR.
Posted by: Johnny Hammersticks Jul 13 2010, 12:47 AM
my bad. So er, spirits and stick n shock, what do ya think?
Posted by: Daylen Jul 13 2010, 01:23 AM
of course. all are important.
Posted by: Daylen Jul 13 2010, 01:26 AM
oops shouldn't let pages sit so long. comment no more I shall.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 13 2010, 04:25 AM
This is what I think would happen if you got hit with stick and shock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6zBjYIyz-0&feature=related
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 13 2010, 04:30 AM
Becouse 6.5x25mm CBJ really is a APDS pistol round for 9mm pistols/SMG:s.
Oh and that condesending tone is really not needed.
Real quickly here, since I am going to bed, quick definition from Wikipedia of APDS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APDS
...
When a large calibre APDS is fired and while still within the bore, the setback forces shear the forward petals, partly unlocking the sub-projectile from the sabot, but still holding it rigidly within the pot. Gas pressure is used to delay the unlocking of the pins holding the rear part of the sub-projectile by gyroscopic forces. Once outside the barrel, the pins, centering band and forward petals are released or discarded by projectile spin, the aerodynamic drag removes the pot/base unit. As an APDS sub-projectile does not require driving bands and the core is supported at the base and ogive region, a far more aerodynamic projectile shape can be chosen. This, in combination with the sub-projectiles’ higher sectional density, gives the resulting sub-projectile vastly reduced aerodynamic drag in comparison to the APCR. Both the higher initial velocity and the reduced drag result in high terminal velocity at impact. This also lowers flight time and improves accuracy. Accuracy can suffer if there are unwanted sabot/sub-projectile interactions during discard.
Are you telling me that all that stuff was covered in the article you linked to as being part of the cartridge in question? I mean, maybe it was, but I don't remember having read all of that in the original article.
If you don't want a "condescending tone" then don't read it back to yourself in a condescending tone. Read it in a nice friendly and genial tone.
Posted by: Mäx Jul 13 2010, 05:50 AM
Are you telling me that all that stuff was covered in the article you linked to as being part of the cartridge in question? I mean, maybe it was, but I don't remember having read all of that in the original article.
So your saying that becouse all of that wasn't mentioned in a short block post(longer article in the subject is linked at bottom) a round concisting of a armor piercing sub-munition surrounded by a larger disgarding sabot isn't an APDS round, i'm pretty sure that covered all parts of the name APDS.
Ofcource its not officially called that becouse the manufacturer doesn't even call it a AP round saying that is just a bonus attribute, whichs is kinda hilarious when you see what it does to an armor.
Posted by: SkepticInc Jul 13 2010, 06:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6zBjYIyz-0&feature=related
You end up in a crappy music video?
Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 13 2010, 06:37 AM
Sometimes I forget how Awesul the early 80's were.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 13 2010, 02:16 PM
Ofcource its not officially called that becouse the manufacturer doesn't even call it a AP round saying that is just a bonus attribute, whichs is kinda hilarious when you see what it does to an armor.
But as I understand it, it's NOT technically APDS. I remember asking a firearms instructor maybe 7 years ago if anyone made APDS for small arms since at that time I played Shadowrun but was just a novice at shooting. He explained to me how while there were a few attempts to do something resembling APDS with a sub munition that these designs were not very successful and that APDS was not technically the right way to refer to those.
Around the same time I asked a different instructor about APDS and he started talking about tanks.
So I don't think that design you're citing is either a "first" or truly APDS.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 13 2010, 02:19 PM
That is what a deadly stun looks like.
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 13 2010, 02:57 PM
Around the same time I asked a different instructor about APDS and he started talking about tanks.
So I don't think that design you're citing is either a "first" or truly APDS.
I disagree. By the wiki you posted a few posts back, this round fits the definition of a small/medium bore APDS round. It has a tungsten ball in a plastic sabot - the tungsten ball qualifies it as an armor piercing round, the plastic case is the discarding sabot. Consider that this round does actually punch through steel plate as evidenced by the article, and defeats up to Class IV armor. For what amounts to a 9mm round, that is beyond fantastic for penetration.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 13 2010, 03:50 PM
The term "APDS" in real life is usually reserved for vehicular weapon scale ammo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saboted_light_armor_penetrator though only the .50 caliber version has seen any real use. The smaller 7.62 size was experimented with but dropped after several catastrophic failures with jamming and at least one case of the projectile exiting by punching a hole through the side of the barrel. Also, it was determined that smaller calibers did not gain enough extra penetration ability to be worth the extra cost and trouble.
-karma
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 13 2010, 03:54 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saboted_Light_Armor_Penetrator_%28SLAP%29
-karma
I'm shaking my fist at you right now. Technicalities!
Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 13 2010, 04:54 PM
mostly i miss the synth sounds, as unlike today, they added something extra rather then just being a electronic piano.
Posted by: Mäx Jul 13 2010, 05:38 PM
Maybe not by the most trict definition of the term, but definedly close enought that my point in the OP stands.
Maybe we just have to agree that the terms meaning has enlaeged in the 60 years time so that in 2070 it encompasses smallarm rounds like this too.
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jul 13 2010, 06:10 PM
Yup, but it's easier for the gunsmith to later cut with the fake suppressor portion after acquiring the short barrel license. My friend did that, and till one does get the license, the rifle just looks better with the fake suppressor on it.
I know, 200 dollars, but I'm saving up for a wedding so I have different priorities.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 13 2010, 07:14 PM
Dude, you play role playing games. Technicalities are what it is all about.
Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 13 2010, 08:43 PM
1. Got to gun store.
2. Buy slug rounds.
3. Shoot at body armor.
My recollection is that both type II and type IIIA armor are capable of stopping a shotgun slug. While there's a few kinds of shotgun slugs that are essentially entirely steel, significantly increasing their velocity and intended to damage or penetrate hard armor (type III/IV), your basic lead shotgun slug doesn't have enough energy delivered to a small enough area to punch through body armor.
Posted by: MortVent Jul 13 2010, 08:45 PM
It might not punch through, but trama plates or no. The armor just means you die without holes in your corpse.
But most sabot slugs will penetrate especially at closer ranges, but the hydrostatic shock regardless is going to be nasty
Posted by: Daylen Jul 13 2010, 10:29 PM
But most sabot slugs will penetrate especially at closer ranges, but the hydrostatic shock regardless is going to be nasty
that's wrong in almost every way...
perhaps you should peruse and read thoroughly the below links.
http://www.chiefsupply.com/Law_Enforcement/Body_Armor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt_trauma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_trauma
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart/
Posted by: Daylen Jul 13 2010, 10:39 PM
But who's armor are you trying to penetrate?
1. someone who has to wear a ballistic vest every day all day?
2. SWAT or marines as they kick in your door?
3. the Bradley fighting vehicle that is being called to location because of the huge explosions?
4. the M1A2 main battle tank that you left behind after using but might come after you later?
5. the naval vessel that you shot at with the tank?
most of the time I'd hope to be shooting against someone wearing comfortable armor like #1 would have which would be no use against a slug. When marines kick in doors they have a good chance of having type 4 on, which can stop a 30-06 round which is impressive. And after that 50BMG's will look small. So yea shotguns are not a magic wand but they can do darn good against so many threats in so many ways and are so cheap. And really moving up to something like a 375H&H or 338Lapua is no fun in many ways.
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