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Posted by: Mordoth Jul 9 2010, 02:29 AM

I did a search to try finding info on this topic, but most of the results were about shapeshifting, shapeshifters, etc, but I didn't find a discussion on spellcasting while shapeshifted.

I've read the Shadowrunner's Companion on Shapeshifters and Drakes. Both sections specifically state that Adept powers are available to the shapeshifter in either form. They also state that shapeshifters' 1 Magic doesn't confer the ability to cast spells, assense, astral project, conjure, etc, unless they also take the Magician (& etc) qualities. But I haven't seen mention about whether they will be able to cast while in their animal form or drake form. The spellcasting rules state that all a spellcaster needs to do is concentrate to cast a spell. Seems to me like you can concentrate just as well in either form. This is assuming of course no incantation, gesture type geasa have been taken.

So would a spellcaster be able to cast spells while in their animal or drake form? Or what about spellcasters who have used a shapeshifting critter form spell? (Which would require sustaining the spell and of course applying the modifier for sustaining.)

Thanks!

My first post.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 9 2010, 02:43 AM

The shapechange spell explicitly says that you can cast spells in the new form. I don't know about the others, however.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 9 2010, 02:47 AM

Definitely yes. Why wouldn't you be able to?

Posted by: MortVent Jul 9 2010, 02:58 AM

since you don't need to speak or gesture to cast spells unless you have a geas for it, yes

Remember the guy giving you the evil eye across the street... could be reading your surface thoughts and thinks you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking of doing those things to that teenager in front of you...

Posted by: Mordoth Jul 9 2010, 03:14 AM

My thoughts on it were that it shouldn't be a problem casting while shapeshifted. I am just returning to Shadowrun after a long absence (since 2nd Edition). Starting playing with a new group and asked the GM this question and he wasn't sure, so I thought I would ask the people on this forum.

PS...I think the guy staring at me from across the street is wondering if I can take him because I'm counterspelling his mind probe and he's not getting nothing from me! AND I might just shapeshift and eat him.

Posted by: Lansdren Jul 9 2010, 07:21 AM

Based on the shapechange spell I would also concur that yes they can. Additionaly logic would say that a natural shifter would feel more comfortable and able in his other suit then a mage in a shifted spell form so why wouldnt the shifter get the skills he paid for.

Even a talking / singing geas shouldnt be a problem but now I have a image of that dog from futurama singin walking on sunshine to cast a spell

Posted by: Mordoth Jul 9 2010, 12:10 PM

In the case of a Drake, they aren't capable of speech, although they can learn Dragon Speech if they have a teacher. In the case of animal shapeshifters, I'm not sure that they are capable of speech in their animal forms. Dancing I guess is relative, how about a tiger doing the macarana? or a drake? Interesting.

Posted by: Lansdren Jul 9 2010, 12:17 PM

Speaking is a relative term, a drake cant speak like us but he can make noises.

I would put forward the idea that if the sounds are still supposed to be the words of a incantation then it counts. The limitation is in the body not the way he's casting.

Posted by: CeeJay Jul 9 2010, 02:00 PM

I have another question (and I'm too lazy to open a new thread )

How about adept powers? Do you still have access to them when shapshifted? Let's say I'm an adept and have Critical Strike (or even better Elemental Strike).
Can I still use this when I'm shapeshifted into a wolf for example and attack someone with my new wolf claws or when I bite someone? Personaly I would say yes..
And what about Imrpoved Attribute? Does it also improve my attribute when I shapeshift (via the spell)?

Just wondering...

-CJ

Posted by: CanRay Jul 9 2010, 02:09 PM

Yes you can cast Spells while shapeshifted.

Just hope you don't have a Gaes for "Chanting in Latin" while you're in Lupine form, however.

Posted by: Lansdren Jul 9 2010, 02:16 PM

YEs adept stuff crosses over very nicely for the most part, far less fidderly then the spell casting.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 9 2010, 03:43 PM

Yes, but don't get Elemental Strike. It is a waste of adept points. You are better off casting Elemental Aura out of Street Magic because that adds DV to your attack along with the elemental effect. I made a mystic adept recently with 6 Magic (5 power points, 1 magic) that shifted into an Eagle. (Level 2 Improved Reflexes, Level 6 Critical Strike, and Heightened Concentration were the adept powers)

The eagle had 20/80 flight movement so as a melee character it was easy to close the distance. I had 3 level 2 sustaining focuses for Shapeshift and Elemental Aura and Improved Invisibility. I would overcast to make them Force 2 spells.

Base attack DV = 3P
+6 DV for critical strike.
+3 DV for martial arts.
+2 DV for whatever elemental aura you choose plus halving armor plus an elemental effect.

That is a minimum of 15DV with any successful attack at half armor.

Posted by: iategod Jul 9 2010, 04:02 PM

don't you get -2 for each sustained spell?

And i wouldn't discount elemental attack, the secondary effects are really awesome sometimes. I have one with a sound elemental effect, every time i do damage more than the target's Will they start vomiting and can't attack for 3 rounds, not to mention it ignores armor, deafens them for 10 min, and double wound modifies for 10min. I tend to use my sustaining spells on defensive spell such as armor, deflection.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 9 2010, 04:06 PM

I would not let you use the Martial Art in Eagle Form, Sorry... I just have a hard time visualizing an Eagle performing Martial arts at all, let alone while flying... So... No...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 9 2010, 04:10 PM

Yes, but a sustaining focus removes the penalty. I am not discounting the elemental attack. I am just saying don't use adept powers for it - use a spell for it. You can have Elemental Aura: Sound as a spell and it doesn't require Killing Hands as a prerequisite.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 9 2010, 04:16 PM

Really? The Martial Arts rules are nonsensical to begin with. Would it be better if I was in kangaroo or bear form?

Posted by: iategod Jul 9 2010, 04:16 PM

In my experience, yes. Within reason. I mean ya can't use power throw if you shape change into an eagle, nimble fingers as a seal, or face sculpture. Although it really depends on the GM in the end. Critical strike is awesome for ya, at max crit strike it's like having an additional 12 str. I would consider penetrating strike, or elemental strike. Oh, and don't forget counterstrike. It's better than riposte.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 9 2010, 04:30 PM

By my reading, that's not overcasting under 4A. I haven't checked the FAQ, but with 5 points of adept powers and 1 point of magical ability, you can cast up to Force 6 spells (overcast Force 12) but just have a dice pool of skill+1 (+ any modifiers) to cast with.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 9 2010, 04:31 PM

No! Why do you persist in such nonsense? Martial Arts are formatted for metahuman forms, not animal forms... Show me an animal capable of performing any current martial art, AT ALL, and I might reconsider, but since you cannot, and I am sure that you know that you cannot, then abolutely not...

I mean Really... Sheesh...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 9 2010, 04:32 PM

This is indeed correct... By SR4A rules anyway... The FAQ sucks in this regard as it directly contradicts the book in this matter.

Keep the Faith

Posted by: DireRadiant Jul 9 2010, 04:32 PM

Soooo... what about all the other skills?

Aren't they all also "formatted" for metahuman forms and brains?

What makes Sorcery ok to work shapeshifted, but not Unarmed Combat?

Posted by: CanRay Jul 9 2010, 04:33 PM

Show me an animal that's been able to learn a Marshal Art in the first place.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 9 2010, 04:34 PM

Exactly...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: CanRay Jul 9 2010, 04:36 PM

Actually, I think the closest you can get for an animal that had a Martial Art was Private Wojtek. And I don't think the "Art of Carrying Ammunition" counts.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 9 2010, 04:39 PM

Sorcery requires no gestures, speech or anything else for that matter... it is all in the mind... But I can guarantee you that an Eagle will not be allowed to make a Hardware Check in my game, nor a Computer check, or a Pistols Check, etc... Infiltration is okay though... it is obviously going to be skill dependant...

As for Unarmed Combat, that is okay... but martial arts are NOT the same as unarmed combat... they are something else entirely (as evidenced by the need to have an actual Positive Quality to be able to use it)... Joe Blow get Kung Fu Martial Art, Bear gets Unarmed Combat, and if Bear tries to perform a Martial art, he fails outright, it just will not work...

See... Joe Blow can perfrom mundane Unarmed Combat, or the more intensive Martial Art... Bear only gets Unarmed Combat...

I know that you know that Dire Radiant...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 9 2010, 04:39 PM

Heheheh... Yeah, well there is that... and I would agree with you on that one...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: CeeJay Jul 9 2010, 04:45 PM

Ahh, come on now. Isn't there a Kung Fu style "Art of the Bear" for the poor beast?

-CJ

-Edit: Come to think of it: Kuma from Tekken likes to disagree with you

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 9 2010, 04:47 PM

Yeah, Yeah...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: iategod Jul 9 2010, 05:04 PM

What bout martial arts that are made to mimic animals? Monkey Kung fu? Perhaps Wildcat... i would guess....

Posted by: iategod Jul 9 2010, 05:05 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kRb06w_XPo

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 9 2010, 05:06 PM

So, let's say I shapeshift into a mouse are you saying you wouldn't let me try to pick a lock. You wouldn't let an Eagle push a few buttons? What if I shifted into a gorilla - would you not let me try to drive a car? or use a first aid kit on someone? or use the wrestling martial art? I really don't care one way or the other - but couldn't the player say he practices fighting people in his shapeshifted form? I mean, he would have to right? Do you not let your players fly shapeshifted because there is no way a person could ever just know how to fly just because they are shapeshifted?

Posted by: Ramorta Jul 9 2010, 06:02 PM

Show me an animal that can shapechange as an innate ability. As to an animal that could learn a martial art, how about a monkey or gorilla. They have roughly the same form as a human and the movements would be roughly the same. At that point, the only difference is the intelligence level, which is moot because shapeshifters are automatically sentient, if uneducated.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jul 9 2010, 07:21 PM

In the end I'm somewhat of a reductionist.

PC shape changes into an eagle and says "Now I want to drive my motorcycle."

I'll just go, "Ok, use your Eagle body Reaction + your Pilot Vehicle skill, and reduce the pool by 4 since you don't have hands. Or are you going to stick on some trodes and do it VR, which might be an issue since trodes are made for metahuman brains, not bird brains?"

My challenge at the table is to take the players request for an action, figure out the appropriate dice pools, if any, and have fun with the outcome of the roll of the dice. the base mechanics involve an Attribute + Skill + modifiers and I haven't seen any restrictions on Skills being dependent on the physical shape of the PC. The only restrictions on skills relate to defaultable skills.

Now I do think hefty modifiers for performing some skills while shapechanged are perfectly reasonable, but removing them entirely based on the shapechanged is an another step I don't think is justified as rules based, though perfectly suitable for any personal campaign house rules.

In principle where do you draw the line? The available metahuman variants are diverse enough physically that once you start doing the "I don't think an X form could have that skill." you are going down a slippery slope. Think about some of the odder metahuman variants, Naga for example.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 9 2010, 07:36 PM

Kangaroo. Or is boxing not a martial art?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 9 2010, 08:01 PM

Possibly not the way the kangaroo does it. It doesn't matter, because we're not talking about kung-fu natural animals.

It is reasonable to say, 'no, you're an eagle, you're not getting +3DV from human Kung-Fu; no, not even Eagle Claw'. That's the GM's job, to decide on a case-by-case basis.

Posted by: jimbo Jul 9 2010, 08:23 PM

I'm sorry, but that kangaroo from the ol' Bugs Bunny toon was insanely devastating...



But for the record, I think a humanoid form would be required to use the martial art qualities...

Posted by: Cabral Jul 9 2010, 10:41 PM

Additionally, since Kung-fu is based upon the movement of animals, shouldn't those animals receive a bonus?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 9 2010, 10:53 PM

Skill useage in Animal Form is dependant upon the animals ability to actually perform the skill... In your example... No, Mouse does not lockpick... Eagle could maybe peck a few buttons, but if it is a skill check, then maybe not... Gorilla driving a car? Is it a troll modified car? Other wise probably not, he won't really fit very well... Fighting in a shapeshifted form is Unarmed Combat, not Martial Arts... already covered that... animals can practive unarmed combat all they like... but not martial arts.

I would allow flight, swimming, tunneling, whatever... it is a mode of movement, and as such I have no issues regarding that... but notice, movement has no actual skill to perform the basic movement, so there again, no skill roll... any skills that are pertinent are for increasing said movement (Flight, Running, Swimming, whatever)

Are you really serious here about letting an animal perform skills that a human pewrforms? Really? As I said earlier, some skills I can see, but the vast majority of them would not work in my game as an animal. Sorry... Just not going to happen.

Won't call the gaming police if you do so in your game, it just strikes me as a bit silly to let an animal perform most skills.

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 9 2010, 11:27 PM

Haha, Cabral. No.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 10 2010, 01:08 AM

Well, Unarmed Combat does have a specialization of martial arts so they are essentially the same thing. Now, if you didn't allow any martial art bonuses for the shapeshifted animal I would definitely argue that no other melee combatants would get martial art bonuses against the shapeshifted form. Unless your martial artist trains against flying eagles or bears I have a hard time believing their training is worth all that much. If the martial art was designed for the metahuman body it was also designed to fight other metahumans.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2010, 04:17 AM

That's true, but it's not the whole truth. Techniques of striking, blocking, etc. are generalizable; you might be a little confused fighting against a bird, but not half as confused as if you WERE (temporarily) a bird.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2010, 03:01 PM

I don't know about you, but I would not even attempt to engange a Bear or Eagle in Hand to hand combat (that is just dumb), that is what a gun is for after all... I have yet to see a bird capable of standing up to a shotgun, and even if you are possessed, you are still probably going down as a bird...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2010, 03:16 PM

Sometimes, you don't get to choose your battles. Especially if it's some crazy bastard shapeshifted into/possessing that bear or eagle.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2010, 03:22 PM

Didn't a member of Dr. Raven's crew have a martial art's form called "Fights Like Wolf"?

Oh, wait, that was just the canine part of his mind taking over, never mind.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2010, 03:49 PM

So... DO YOU stand and fight the bear, or do you run? Me personally, If I do not have a gun, or it does not work against the bear, I run... You don't melee with a bear, regardless of whether it is a shapeshifted mage or a real bear...

Just Sayin'

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 10 2010, 04:17 PM

Doesn't that kind of depend on the character and campaign. I cold cocked a t-rex in a hero pulp adventure game, insane yes but I dazed him on the move through when we did the math. Damn near took my self out as well. In shadowrun I can see a Troll willing to tussle with a bear they are of similar size and strength you got a knife or a really big fist and it has claws, and any physical adept might be game if you can knock down brick walls you can probably also punch through a bear. And if a eagle was on top of me clawing away, yes I'd punch it. If it kept swooping in and out, I'd shoot it if I had a gun.

Posted by: BlueMax Jul 10 2010, 04:25 PM

Killfist,
Your suffering from being an old time Shadowrunner. The revisionists have made trolls much smaller in 4th edition. Shaq is almost out of Orc and into troll territory now. Andre almost certainly in the Troll range.
Pink Mohawk game: Hell yes, we are the "heroes" after all.
That other time of game: "Given the high muscle density and low nerve endings of bears and the mass ratios........." you may fall asleep as Genmo covers the technical aspects and statistics.

BlueMax

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2010, 04:29 PM

I'm pretty sure the Bear can cast "Transmute Flesh to Hamburger" even if it isn't a magician.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2010, 04:46 PM

My Point Exactly...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 10 2010, 04:48 PM

Well even in the trolls are just taller humans with horns edition they outweigh the typical grizzly, and 8ish strength is where I am guessing the game puts a bear, I only see great cat in the main book and the juggernaut was so dandified I don't see a bear being all that absurd in strength. Though my PDF collection does not include any critters beyond SR4A so who knows because I'm too lazy to get my book.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 10 2010, 04:49 PM

Bears in RL are killing machines, but in Shadowrun they're not that bad:

It rolls 7 dice to hit you, 10 DV when it connects with 1 IP. Any melee character will tear it apart, and even the Mage or Hacker can probably Full Defense and not get hit by it.

Edit: That's from Running Wild.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2010, 04:49 PM

Maybe you don't *get* to run, Tymeaus. That's what 'don't get to pick your battles' means.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2010, 04:53 PM

Maybe, But I am sure as hell going to try... There are always options, if only you look for them...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 10 2010, 04:58 PM

Actually, with the shapeshifting spell, the animal form can be much tougher than the metahuman form. You are sort of like a dire or possessed version of whatever you turn into. The only thing you are lacking is armor. The base stats for an eagle are:

Body 2
Agility 5
Reaction 3
Strength 2

Shapeshifted with a Force 2 spell (assuming 2 successes) you get
Body 4
Agility 7
Reaction 5
Strength 4

Those are pretty impressive physical stats for a mage/mystic adept that has to dump a ton of BP into mental stats for drain. Toss in the fact, that the movement rate of the eagle is very high (you aren't outrunning the eagle) and it is very easy for the eagle to be flying around invisibly the target of the eagle probably doesn't get to choose their ground to fight on.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 10 2010, 04:59 PM

Ah 9 Strength and body doing 10DV. That actually works for me even in the killing machine of RL. Bears frequently do not one hit kill humans so 10ish DV fits after a few dice soak. Now in the future where everyone has 4+impact armor and your cycling outfit with its helmet gives you 8 impact it is a bit less threatening, add in troll with a axe which can have the same body and strength and we got a good tussle, throw in cyber/bioware and the bear doesn't stand a chance.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 10 2010, 05:02 PM

How do you figure 10DV? Shouldn't it only be 5DV? I don't think their str is added to their base attack - I think the base attack already takes that into account.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 10 2010, 05:03 PM

Well the real problem it has is the (relative to PCs) low dice pool to actually hit someone, 10 DV is fine but it'll be mostly hitting nothing but air.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2010, 05:06 PM

Yeah, it's kind of insane how strong shapeshifting can make some critters. The buff should probably be like +10%/net hit (or 20%, etc.), instead of a flat bonus. The flat bonus is simpler, but it makes weaker critters vastly stronger, and strong critters barely get a buff.

This refers back to the law that shapeshifting sucks in all RPGs (okay, Tymeaus, except that one you like).

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 10 2010, 05:06 PM

I'm not sure it works like that, I'd consider the bear's claws to be like cyberware claws and it's mass like bone enhancements. So where a human has, say +3 from the claws +2 from the bones for a total of Str/2 +5, the game just tells us the bear has that naturally from his DV 5 natural weapons.

I don't remember it actually being described in the rules anywhere though so /shrug.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2010, 05:07 PM

I wasn't aware that claws and bone mods stacked for damage.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2010, 05:08 PM

Heheheh... I really do love that system's version of Shapeshifters... it is awesome...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 10 2010, 05:13 PM

Well in previous versions of SR losing your armor meant more. Now its just dice, dice you might make up with the increased body from the shapechange. Before losing just your lined coat changed the TN from that heavy pistol from a 5 to a 9, good luck with that. So previously I'd say it worked out a bit better, though other spells were worse so whatever.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2010, 05:14 PM

That's true. But, a little Mystic Armor or whatever it's called…

Posted by: Makki Jul 10 2010, 05:23 PM

i'll play a mystic adept with combat sense, mystic armor and critical strike who will always fight in animal form. most likely a Lion, because "Great Cats" from SR4A get 2 IP and my GM calls IP are physical stats, so you'll get them when shifting. with 2-3 hits on the spell, that's one scary cat...

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 10 2010, 05:34 PM

I don't think it existed in its current form of adding armor in previous editions, also mystic adepts were absurdly rare back then and in my preferred edition they just did not exist. But yes the general rule that shape change sucks in every game usually hold true since it ends up being a way for the players to try and cheese the system. Some of it is so bad I don't know how it got past play test, like the initial 3e D&D polymorph self and other you could become like celestials and gain everything but there magic, lame.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2010, 07:46 PM

Exactly. D&D's the worst offender.

Posted by: HappyDaze Jul 11 2010, 05:28 AM

The big thing keeping animals from having martial arts is a lack of Sapience (as defined by SR), not their forms. Shapeshifters could certainly develop martial arts to make best use of their forms, and a shapechanged magician might be able to learn such arts too. That doesn't mean that the same arts are usable across multiple forms - arts made with the human body in mind would likely be useless in bear form. However, if we want to get realistic, 99% of metahuman martial arts techniques are going to be nearly useless against non-metahuman bodies, so...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 11 2010, 06:17 AM

Eh, I still say the fundamentals of striking, blocking, balance, movement, etc. don't care *too* much whether the target is a human(oid). Obviously, certain techniques and schools are more specialized, but it's hardly '99%'. But all martial arts care whether the *user* is a human or a bird.

Posted by: iategod Jul 11 2010, 07:25 AM

Said from the view point of a human, not an animal who can turn human. If a human can mimic animals in fighting techniques then an animal (sapient) should be able to mimic a human fighting style.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 11 2010, 11:59 AM

Who said they couldn't? They'll have to develop wholly new techniques for their wholly new body, though.

And human martial arts don't mimic animals. They're (supposedly) inspired by animals.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 11 2010, 04:49 PM

Sure just define your marital art as shape shifter tiger style, pick a existing martial art that roughly fits and go for it. But for a magician shape changing, I guess it is possible but in any game I ran that would require a very large time investment in shape shifted form and IMO only be for one form type like big cats.

But I'd say the specialization martial art and talents I believe describes that the GM determines when the benefits don't come into play using logic based on the martial art. You are not getting your boxing benefits when kicking and it is hard to box when you are in horse form for example.