Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: galvatron42 Jul 11 2010, 02:43 AM

I'm currently helping my friend make his character for Gencon. While buying skills, he wanted to take dodge. I told him that dodge only works against melee attacks, but then he showed me that one of the specializations listed under the dodge skill is for ranged attacks. So how does that work? Can you use dodge against a ranged attack if you have specialized in it, or is it an error in the book? I checked the SR4A changes document and there is nothing mentioned about changes to defending against ranged attacks. Also of note, I have very little experience with the system and he has never played, so we are pretty close to lost. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Posted by: Gamer6432 Jul 11 2010, 02:47 AM

By RAW as I understand it, Ranged Defense is Reaction. Full Ranged Defense is Reaction + Dodge. Melee Defense is Reaction + Dodge. Full Melee Defense is Reaction + Dodge + Dodge.

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 11 2010, 02:52 AM

Yeah, uh, dodge works against everything, dude.

In defending against RANGED
....you roll reaction. (this is why guns are deadly. Its stat+skill+smartlink vs one attribute alone)

in defending against MELEE
Its Reaction + Dodge(dodge) OR Block(Unarmed) OR Parry(weaponskill)

Additionally, Full Defense ADDS the following options to the above. Yes, a full parry adds weapon skill twice.
Dodge OR Parry(weapon skill or unarmed) OR Gymnastics(Full Defense is the only way to get Gymdodge going).

Hope that answers things.

Additionally, dodge is specifically called out when rigging/driving.

Posted by: galvatron42 Jul 11 2010, 03:05 AM

That helps a bunch. Thanks. Another question, does full defense take your entire turn, or can you change it on your next initiative pass. Example, I have 3 initiative passes from enhanced reflexes. I attack on my first pass, full defense on my second pass, and attack again on my 3rd pass. Or am I locked into full defense on each pas I have that turn. Thanks again!

Posted by: Glyph Jul 11 2010, 03:54 AM

Full defense lasts until your next Action Phase.

Also, full defense can be taken as an interrupt action that uses your next available action. As an example, let's take your hypothetical guy with three initiative passes. He uses his first action to attack, then when the security guards return fire, he declares full defense. He doesn't get his second Action Phase, but on his third initiative pass, he can go again.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 11 2010, 03:57 AM

Full Defense is a Complex Action, and it lasts until your next Action Phase (IP) begins.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Jul 11 2010, 06:20 AM

And since it's a Complex Action, you can still take a Free Action, like running for your life.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 11 2010, 10:24 AM

"Missed me!" *bllllllllllllllllll* as a free action is frowned upon though.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 11 2010, 10:51 AM

Running for life is (IIRC) a simple action. Moving away is for free

with a free Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 11 2010, 11:59 AM

Moving for your life, then.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 11 2010, 07:54 PM

Running (which is simply using the running rate instead of the walking rate) is a free action.

Sprinting (making a Running + Strength test to improve your running distance) is a simple action.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 11 2010, 09:23 PM

And that is exactly what I would call "Running for your Life "

Hough !
Medicineman

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 12 2010, 02:35 AM

If you're in that sort of situation, where you need to run for your life, you should really spend Edge to take another action.

Then use it to Run away, instead of kind of....... moseying away from harm at a casual stroll while on full defense.

Posted by: Abstruse Jul 12 2010, 02:58 AM

I was just reading these rules in prep for a game coming up. You missed a bit on melee dodge. Here's the full breakdown:

NO Full Defense Action:

Ranged Attack: Reaction (Edge can be used)
Ranged Attack (Suppressive Fire): Reaction + Edge

Melee Attack (untrained): Reaction + Dodge
Melee Attack (trained): Reaction + (Combat Skill)

Full Defense Action:

Ranged Attack: Reaction + Dodge (Edge can be used)
Ranged Attack (Suppressive Fire): Reaction + Edge + Dodge

Melee Attack (untrained): Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
Melee Attack (trained): Reaction + (Combat Skill) + Dodge

Note: I made no distinction between Parry and Block as it's just a matter of using the related armed combat skill vs. using Unarmed Combat.

Also, in melee, you have the choice between which to use depending on whether you wish to declare Full Defense or which skill you'd like to use (Dodge = Dodge, Parry = armed combat skill (Edged Weapons, Clubs, etc), Block = Unarmed Combat)

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 12 2010, 03:32 AM

I really don't see how that's an improvement over my list, above. About the only thing you've added is suppressive fire. You've also missed several melee defenses - reaction + combat skill + combat skill is entirely possible.

Whether or not you're trained doesn't matter;because you can still default, - listing it is just confusing. It also doesn't account for gymnastic dodging.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 12 2010, 04:11 AM

K.I.S.S.: Full Defense adds Dodge or Gymnastics or Melee/Unarmed, as appropriate, to the existing defense pool. Done.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 12 2010, 07:28 AM

@suppressive fire: You don't need to defend at all. All you need to do is spend a free action to drop prone. No one forbids you to shoot back while prone either.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 12 2010, 03:20 PM

Good old prone. But, not everyone's always ready for that, so suppression has uses.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 12 2010, 03:22 PM

with a bipod or tripod weapon, dropping prone actually makes it easier to shoot back too . . but no dodging or anything fancy, just stand, or rather, in this case, lie and deliver . . if you wanna deal, you had better be able to take it too . .

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 12 2010, 03:44 PM

As soon as you're prone, you are not damaged by suppressive fire. That's the beauty of it.

What makes you think that you cannot dodge, when you're prone?

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 12 2010, 03:48 PM

O.o
OK . .

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 12 2010, 04:12 PM

Which does not make any sense. Ok, you are just rolling Reaction to "dodge" the shot, but when you are prone there isn't much you can do except to roll over (and possibly die?). The attacker is probably having a penalty for cover since you reduced your hitting area.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 12 2010, 04:17 PM

While this would make sense, the rules say otherwise. Anyone who drops prone or is already prone is immune to suppressive fire. Unless the shooter is very close a prone character can "dodge" the shot normally. Remember dodging is not dodging bullets Neo-style but not being where the attacker is likely to shoot.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 12 2010, 05:33 PM

I know, and I'm not exactly complaining about supressive fire, I'm complaining about taking pot-shots against someone who is over 100ft away without cover and lying prone. I would penalized on shooting a small target, sure. But the attacked person wouldn't have much room to avoid being hit in the first place.