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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Monofilament Whip question
Posted by: Jyster Jul 13 2010, 04:44 AM
Can you make a Monofilament Whip weapon focus?
Posted by: Laodicea Jul 13 2010, 04:45 AM
Yes.
Posted by: Emy Jul 13 2010, 05:17 AM
Very yes.
Posted by: Wasabi Jul 13 2010, 10:21 AM
Yes, even an implanted one.
Posted by: Lansdren Jul 13 2010, 12:34 PM
Although I believe it has to be enchanted before implantation.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 13 2010, 12:35 PM
You shouldn't, though. It's lame.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 12:53 PM
No, it's qute badass.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 13 2010, 12:56 PM
Not even a little bit badass.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 01:51 PM
whipping it out and striking a spirit or so in half with your outstretched finger is VERY MUCH badass . .
Posted by: Laodicea Jul 13 2010, 01:57 PM
just to weigh in on the badass vs. not badass argument here:
The whip doesn't have the same romance as a sword, but it is pretty damn badass. Particularly in terms of concealability, and in game terms of a low str character like a petite girl being able to rend a man in half.
Posted by: TheOOB Jul 13 2010, 02:17 PM
The monofilament whip has good stats and is a viable melee options for low-strength characters, and it can be enchanted. There is nothing not to like.
Posted by: Lansdren Jul 13 2010, 02:19 PM
A critical glitch
Posted by: Emy Jul 13 2010, 02:40 PM
If you plan on using a lot of either monowhips or explosives, I highly recommend the Guard power.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 03:05 PM
That's one nice thing about weapon-focus . . you get more dice for using it, so the probabilty of a critical glitch goes down accordingly . .
Posted by: Laodicea Jul 13 2010, 03:15 PM
I've been wondering about this, actually. I'm not sure the answer is entirely intuitive.
It seems intuitive that you are at much less risk throwing 4 dice than 2 dice. With only 2 dice you need only one 1. Throwing 4 dice you need two 1s, but you have also increased your chances of getting 1s. Your need for 1s always remains at half your dice pool. Although you are increasing your chances to get a 1 with each dice thrown, there is still simply a 1/6 chance, independantly, for each die. It's not like you now have a 2/6 chance simply because you doubled your dice pool.
........
/confused
Posted by: Belvidere Jul 13 2010, 03:19 PM
It seems intuitive that you are at much less risk throwing 4 dice than 2 dice. With only 2 dice you need only one 1. Throwing 4 dice you need two 1s, but you have also increased your chances of getting 1s. Your need for 1s always remains at half your dice pool. Although you are increasing your chances to get a 1 with each dice thrown, there is still simply a 1/6 chance, independantly, for each die. It's not like you now have a 2/6 chance simply because you doubled your dice pool.
........
/confused
This is probably true. But as almost all gamers will agree. The higher your modifier/dice pool the better off you are. I believe it has something to do with gamer paranoia. Just like almost all Shadowrun players I've met must have their dice sitting on 6's when they aren't in use.
Posted by: AStarshipforAnts Jul 13 2010, 03:20 PM
It seems intuitive that you are at much less risk throwing 4 dice than 2 dice. With only 2 dice you need only one 1. Throwing 4 dice you need two 1s, but you have also increased your chances of getting 1s. Your need for 1s always remains at half your dice pool. Although you are increasing your chances to get a 1 with each dice thrown, there is still simply a 1/6 chance, independantly, for each die. It's not like you now have a 2/6 chance simply because you doubled your dice pool.
........
/confused
That's not the way probability works. To get two ones you have to have the event probability of 1/6 combined with an independent event with probability of 1/6. 1/6 times, the first die will come up 1. But, 1/6 of those times, the second die comes up 1. That ends up being a combined probability of 1/36.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 13 2010, 03:24 PM
Welcome to statistics. After taking this course you'll understand why you've never gotten a full house or royal flush in poker and why you keep losing money in the slots.
Also:
Having an even sized dice pool is more glitch prone than the odd sized dice pool smaller than it.
(Reason: Same number of 1s needed, 1 extra die to help make it happen).
Posted by: AStarshipforAnts Jul 13 2010, 03:24 PM
Gambling: A tax on people who can't do math.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 13 2010, 03:26 PM
Hehe, indeed.
Posted by: AStarshipforAnts Jul 13 2010, 03:28 PM
(Reason: Same number of 1s needed, 1 extra die to help make it happen).
So what you're saying is that I can tweek the game not by munchkining my character, but by munchkining math. Oh happy day!
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 03:31 PM
And it took you how long to figure this out? ^^
Posted by: AStarshipforAnts Jul 13 2010, 03:37 PM
Maybe.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 13 2010, 03:43 PM
Notably though, your odds of getting more successes go up more than your odds of a glitch.
Posted by: Karoline Jul 13 2010, 03:45 PM
How many times have you gotten a critical glitch period? In something that your character is actually good at? That you didn't then negate by spending edge?
It's funny how everyone is always so quick to bring up the 'critical glitch damages you' but forget that critical glitches almost never happen, and when they do, they can be canceled, and when they can't, you still have armor and body, so it sucks but isn't instantly deadly.
Posted by: Lansdren Jul 13 2010, 03:50 PM
It's funny how everyone is always so quick to bring up the 'critical glitch damages you' but forget that critical glitches almost never happen, and when they do, they can be canceled, and when they can't, you still have armor and body, so it sucks but isn't instantly deadly.
I would say a critical glitch is as likley as a critical success.
The law of averages takes everyone from behind roughly at some point.
Posted by: czarcasm Jul 13 2010, 03:53 PM
The one bad thing that I could say about a monofilament whip focus is that, if your character is astrally projecting, the damage code is IIRC reduced to that of a regular whip, which isn't that impressive.
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 13 2010, 03:53 PM
That's because the material of the dice will flow with gravity! So by setting them 6s up causes the 1s to be weight increasing the odds of 6s being rolled and decreasing the odds of 1s!
I will be honest though.... I've considered using a monofilament whip on my character.... at 9 agility, a base dice pool of 8 isn't half bad.
Then again, I've joked with some of the players about getting my character a katana or monofilament sword to use, because there's something stupidly awesome about an opportunistic ranged combatant running about with a sword on him.
--
That's why when I gamble I play poker against other players where you can start bring things other than odds into the game!
Posted by: Karoline Jul 13 2010, 03:56 PM
I don't even remember what a critical success is.
That aside, the odds of a critical glitch are impossibly low once you get past about 6 dice. Sure, you might get one every... couple years or so, but that's about it.
On 6 dice the odds of getting the three 1s required is only 1 in 128, but then you also have to not get any hits, which means there is only somewhere around a 1 in 400 chance of getting a critical glitch on 6 dice, and the odds get longer from there. So yeah, even if my character was incompetent with the monofilament and only had 6 dice, I'd take 1 self hit in every 400 attacks for being able to use such an awesome weapon.
Posted by: AStarshipforAnts Jul 13 2010, 04:36 PM
And that's good enough for me.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 13 2010, 05:00 PM
5 or more net hits.
From many, many years of playing That Other Game I never once rolled a critical hit on anything that mattered (I rolled two during a 26 month campaign: one on an undead and one on a mook that died even before damage was doubled; these being the only two critical hits ever made; though I had as single critical threat in the same campaign that didn't confirm).
I have, likewise, never* rolled a critical miss. I have rolled 1s on Initiative, Saving Throws, Skill/Attribute checks, and such (even some 20s in there too) but never on an attack roll.*
For this reason I have never acquired any weapon that did something special on crits.
*This is likely a slight exaggeration; I'm sure I have rolled 1s on attack rolls, but at a significantly lower rate than one would expect. Most, however, would have been minor in their effect resulting in little more than a standard miss.
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 13 2010, 05:01 PM
That aside, the odds of a critical glitch are impossibly low once you get past about 6 dice. Sure, you might get one every... couple years or so, but that's about it.
On 6 dice the odds of getting the three 1s required is only 1 in 128, but then you also have to not get any hits, which means there is only somewhere around a 1 in 400 chance of getting a critical glitch on 6 dice, and the odds get longer from there. So yeah, even if my character was incompetent with the monofilament and only had 6 dice, I'd take 1 self hit in every 400 attacks for being able to use such an awesome weapon.
A critical success is 4+ net hits on the test.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 05:05 PM
*Troll rolls obscene ammounts of dice on body roll to stage down 2D damage*
*GM looks on in astonishment* "That's a LOT of ones . . "
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 13 2010, 05:08 PM
*GM looks on in astonishment* "That's a LOT of ones . . "
Mage rolls 26 dice to cast fireball (SR3).
My. That's a lot of 1s and not a single success.
</C.L.U.E.>
Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 13 2010, 05:10 PM
My. That's a lot of 1s and not a single success.
</C.L.U.E.>
I actually saw that happen. Critical glitch on a drain resist for a Fireball. Set himself on fire like a Tibetan protestor.
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 13 2010, 05:11 PM
Here's my bigger disappointment about monofilament whips. You can't take a specialization for them, so you'll always be down 2 dice that you could get on other weapons.
Posted by: Dumori Jul 13 2010, 05:26 PM
I have to say I don't play slots but I've had at least 3 royal flushes, at least 1 off the flop, and umpteen full houses.
Posted by: Dumori Jul 13 2010, 05:29 PM
You can in my game 
I bunched a few of the monofilerment weapons in to a group just like lasers work. So you get 3 skills for one and can get that +2
Posted by: Wasabi Jul 13 2010, 05:45 PM
Best use for a F1 spirit and the Guard power ever.
And yeah, enchanted before implanted.
Posted by: Wasabi Jul 13 2010, 05:45 PM
In SR4A by RAW you can make your own specializations.
Posted by: Laodicea Jul 13 2010, 05:48 PM
This man has a lot of Edge.
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 13 2010, 05:51 PM
Except that by RAW, the use of specializations with Exotic weapon skills do not make sense. The specialization is typically a group of similar weapons or in the case of melee weapons defensive skills. Exotic weapon skills are taken for a specific weapon, so you can't really give it a specialization for a weapon group. So the question becomes, what kind of specializations can you make up for use with a monofilament whip?
Posted by: Belvidere Jul 13 2010, 05:56 PM
Called shots, Parry (Silly... but RAW)
Those are just the two off of the top of my head. I don't think you should be able to spec in exotic weapons... they're exotic. Training to use them is hard enough
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 13 2010, 06:01 PM
Those are just the two off of the top of my head. I don't think you should be able to spec in exotic weapons... they're exotic. Training to use them is hard enough
Disarm?
Posted by: Laodicea Jul 13 2010, 06:03 PM
People keep saying that defending/parrying/blocking with a monowhip is ridiculous conceptually. I just want to point out that sometimes defending yourself doesnt involve a direct block or parry of an enemies weapon. Sometimes it involves moving your weapon in a way that creates a threat to the enemies body should they pursue the attack. Recognizing this threat, the enemy backs off, and you've succeeded in your defense.
Posted by: Garou Jul 13 2010, 06:24 PM
Well, for a weapon that is known to sometimes bites you back, the less you whip the thing around you better.
and about the MW as foci, shouldn't foci base thelesma be virgin, technologically unspoiled materials, and generally crafted by the mage himself if possible? just asking.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 06:29 PM
No, it just gets harder to enchant, if you don't adhere to these conservative ideas . .
Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 13 2010, 06:29 PM
No, it's just easier to enchant if it is. For mundane thelesma the rules specifically mention commlinks as an example. Anyway Monofilament whips aren't even that high tech. Making the monofilament wire is, but once you have it then what, a little motor and casing that can spool it safely?
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 13 2010, 06:47 PM
Well, the wire itself is not a naturally occurring material, but instead fabricated in a highly industrialized location (can you say "background count"?) which makes it a "high tech material."
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 06:49 PM
technically, a monowhip can be made from anything that you can get into 1 molecule thin sdtrands and strong enough
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 13 2010, 07:10 PM
Just because there are atoms that can do that doesn't mean it occurs naturally that way. And really, you'd want carbon nano tubes. They'd at least be stable.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 07:12 PM
1 molecule thin handwavium or however that magical mineral is called . .
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 13 2010, 07:17 PM
Phlebotinum.
Phle(m). Bot. In-um.
Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 13 2010, 07:19 PM
He means orichalcum.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 13 2010, 07:20 PM
yah, dat wun!
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 13 2010, 07:39 PM
It's precisely the overpoweredness that's not to like. It's basically better than everything in every way, except for destroying barriers. The fingertip monowhip *was* cool in the movie, but it's just copied after that. 
I'm not saying you shouldn't get one, just that you're not cool for it. 
Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 13 2010, 07:41 PM
Well I think the Shadowrun writers play a little game of ripping off as much as possible from William Gibson just to annoy him.
So they need to make sure the monofilament whip remains popular, I guess, for maximum effect.
Posted by: Laodicea Jul 13 2010, 07:58 PM
Fair enough on it being overpowered. You would have to have what? 12 str to make a katana equally damaging?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 13 2010, 08:00 PM
Plus reach, AP, concealability…
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 13 2010, 08:32 PM
A katana is (str/2+3)P and -1 AP.
A monofilament whip is 8P and -4 AP.
So you would need 10 strength to match the damage. 12 str would negate the probability of an extra damage soak from your target getting 3 extra armor.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 14 2010, 02:34 AM
You could always take the Specialization: Called Shots...
Keep the Faith
Posted by: Laodicea Jul 14 2010, 04:34 AM
Keep the Faith
lol
nothing like whipping out peoples eyes and crotches....
Posted by: Eimi Jul 14 2010, 05:14 AM
Handheld, Implanted, Called Shots, Up-Close? Admittedly, these could be considered rather iffy and potentially abusive at best, it's certainly not an easy skill to develop specialties for. But then, some specialties, even in the books, are just 'better' than others in general. I mean, what's the difference, really, between being a gunbunny with a pair of custom-made semi-automatics that they use 90% of the time who takes the Semi-Automatic specialty in pistols and someone with a custom-made concealed monofilament whip who takes the Handheld specialty? The GM can take them away from you, but short of doing that, they're not much different in the scope of how broad the specialty can be considered to be.
Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 08:21 AM
Yes, but Exotic weapon skills list specialisations as not availebul(or apliaple) so for those you cant make up your own.
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 14 2010, 11:15 AM
That was pretty much the reason I said you don't get a specialization. It lists "N/A" for Specializations, which means not available or not applicable. I can't think of any common use definition of applicable or available that would indicate that specializations are allowed for the exotic weapons.
Doesn't mean I wouldn't abuse the hell out of it if I could.
Posted by: Karoline Jul 14 2010, 03:35 PM
Well, it could mean N/A as in 'because this covers so many different things, we can't provide any.'
I could see plenty of argument for a spec like parry in particular. Or maybe even something as simple as offensive/defensive spec, one applies only on attacks, and the other only on defense. Like Eimi said, it really isn't any different that the pistol gunbunny taking an SA spec for pistols since 90% of production pistols are SA, and the gunbunny is only going to be forced to use a non SA pistol under very extreme circumstances.
Personally I think Exotic weapons should get more bonuses because they represent such a limited field, as opposed to losing bonuses such as specialization. I mean someone who takes automatics is competent with all assault rifles and such ever made, but taking an exotic weapon means your proficient with one particular weapon, of which there are likely only a few hundred likely to be in use. Basically you're crippling your versatility in order to use a weird weapon, which in most cases are very weak compared to anything of similar size and cost. And of course if no specs are allowed, you're also crippling your combat ability as well by giving up 2 dice on offense, 2 dice on defense, and 4 dice on full defense (Or just 2 on offense for ranged weapons).
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2010, 03:42 PM
If the question is RAW, no specializations at all are allowed. If the question is houseruling, then Exotic Weapons (just like D&D) should never have existed.
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 14 2010, 04:22 PM
That is a very loose interpretation that really stretches it to justify a specialization for Exotic Weapons.
Not Applicable - Applicable (Able to be applied; appropriate). Not able to be applied. Not appropriate.
Not Available
Neither of those usages of N/A would really lend credence to an interpretation that a specialization for Exotic Weapons is intended.
I'll be honest. I think the specializations list for Pistols ispartially bullshit. They are vastly different from any other weapon specializations. I'm okay with the hold-outs and taser specialization since that falls in line with the specializations described for other weapon skills. Revolvers and Semi-Automatics is retarded. No other ranged weapon group breaks it down like that with the exception of carbine under automatics. Pretty much every other weapon skill breaks it down by a weapon group. It would be saner if Pistols broke it down by heavy/light pistols rather than revolvers/semi-autos.
I would be for a description text in the weapons that says "Individuals skilled in this weapon gain an additional +1 to all test with the weapon."
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2010, 04:28 PM
They can get that. Just pay for another rank in it. Can you even parry with a monowhip? Bleh.
The real fix is to remove Exotics. Replace with 'Personal Lasers', 'Whips', 'Cyber Implant Weapons (inc. odd places)', etc. etc.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 14 2010, 04:38 PM
Penile Implant with a Monofilament Whip in it . . doesn't get more odd in terms of placement and gives whipping it out a whole new meaning . .
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2010, 04:45 PM
Not odd?
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 05:08 PM
How about a drake's breath weapon? That's an "exotic ranged weapon" too.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2010, 05:12 PM
What about it?
Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 14 2010, 05:22 PM
It'd be tough to come up with a good spec explanation for breath weapons. What could there be after Called Shots even if you were making up specs? Left nostril, right nostril and through the mouth?
Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 14 2010, 05:25 PM
Out yer arse.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 05:28 PM
Its a natural* ability yet training in it doesn't get you as good as you could be with any common fire arm because you can specialize with the Ares Predator over all other pistols.
*Or supernatural, if we consider it being (semi)magical.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2010, 07:09 PM
Oh. Is that a problem?
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 07:31 PM
Is it a problem that a drake has fewer dice to an innate ability than he does using a gun?
Yes, yes it is.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2010, 07:49 PM
Only if he invests equally in both skills. It's not like they *always* do. Besides, *tons* of critters and people have fewer dice in 'innate' abilities than 'learned' ones, *and* you're not born knowing how to spit fire, either. It's just as learned.
*shrug*. Maybe flaming snot is harder to point-and-click guns. If it's ruining your entire game, houserule it.
Posted by: Dumori Jul 14 2010, 08:17 PM
I could see plenty of argument for a spec like parry in particular. Or maybe even something as simple as offensive/defensive spec, one applies only on attacks, and the other only on defense. Like Eimi said, it really isn't any different that the pistol gunbunny taking an SA spec for pistols since 90% of production pistols are SA, and the gunbunny is only going to be forced to use a non SA pistol under very extreme circumstances.
Personally I think Exotic weapons should get more bonuses because they represent such a limited field, as opposed to losing bonuses such as specialization. I mean someone who takes automatics is competent with all assault rifles and such ever made, but taking an exotic weapon means your proficient with one particular weapon, of which there are likely only a few hundred likely to be in use. Basically you're crippling your versatility in order to use a weird weapon, which in most cases are very weak compared to anything of similar size and cost. And of course if no specs are allowed, you're also crippling your combat ability as well by giving up 2 dice on offense, 2 dice on defense, and 4 dice on full defense (Or just 2 on offense for ranged weapons).
I'm tempted to ingore 90% of them blades in odd place uses blades ect. And the few out there wacky enought to no mesh with other treat them as knowledge skills cost wise.
Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 14 2010, 08:56 PM
Even the reptiles that absorb oxygen through what amounts to anal gills don't actually inhale/exhale that way.
Posted by: Squiddy Attack Jul 14 2010, 09:06 PM
Though, now I'm wondering if it's possible to reroute the path of a drake's fire to the, ah, back door, via surgery.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2010, 09:07 PM
Does it even come out of their mouth in the first place? It's just the Elemental Attack power, right? Could be anything.
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 14 2010, 09:24 PM
Well, there's the precedent of the little swamp dragon in Terry Pratchets: GUARDS! GUARDS!
Won't be long now, untill we have jet-engine-powered drakes . .
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 10:06 PM
Won't be long now, untill we have jet-engine-powered drakes . .
That book was awesome. Though I may be slightly biased as it was my first introduction to Terry Pratchett (two Ts on the end, there).
Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 14 2010, 10:09 PM
Most of his Stuff is awesome, and i still would prefer it if shadowrun had been a mix between gibson and pratchett <.<
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 10:21 PM
I don't think anyone would have been able to make sense of the world if Pratchett had been involved. We'd have trolls made out of rock (with diamonds for teeth) and anthropomorphic personifications of Death (as well as other things).
No, all ShadowRun needs to be is a mix of Gibson and generic fantasy. Figure out how you want to define "dragon" and then drop it into a modern setting. How does it "get by"? Why, it invests in large corporations and eats dissenters ("I own the company and the company owns you. You're going to be served with a side of mashed potatoes and you're going to enjoy it.")
Magic is mysterious and powerful, and generally freaks people out ("Geek the mage, geek the mage!") but has its price ("Ooohh...I don't feel so well...Is that blood? At least I'm safe...")
Posted by: yukami Jul 15 2010, 12:38 AM
I've seen more than a couple character builds who probably thought of themselves as much
THEN AGAIN, THEY PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE NEARLY AS HUMOROUSLY STYLISH ABOUT IT.
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