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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shape shifting mystic adept..........

Posted by: iategod Jul 13 2010, 09:56 PM

I have this concept of a shape shifting mystic adept that i would like to optimize some. The concept is that of a NAN member, one of twins, who's brother was born a white eagle which is greatly worshiped in most Amerindian societies. However, the twin brother was born a black bird (crow, raven) which brings animosity toward him. To make a long story short, he's the family's dirty little secret and thus is shadow running while his brother is getting all the glory and respect.

Anyways, the notion i had was more of a gun adept but with spells to compliment his dark side. Such as shadow. He's fragile of sorts and i would like him to be a hit n run type of character, fly in, shoot em up, fly out. Here's what i got so far. I'm trying to stay at 750 karma, although i have an extra 50 after chargen to fill in some spaces if need be.

[ Spoiler ]

The basic question i have now is what your opinion is on the spells;I plan on using dual Ares Predator IV with axe blades attached to the under barrel, like a gunblade cept they would look like tomahawks for conceptual reasons. Couple that with two weapon fighting style, since full melee defense (parry) is reation+melee skill(5+weapon foci correct?)+combat sense. For range i would go full gymnastics dodge gym+reaction+combat sense+improv non-combat ability (adept power, it's really cheap for the extra +6 die).

As for my casting i was going to cast improv reflexes for the max +3 ip then use my sustaining focus for that, then over cast combat senses. Something like 10 or 12 (if i can) then my drain value would be 7 or 8, i'd roll to resist it and whatever i don't resist, at the end of the combat turn i can regen it since i'm a shape shifter. Since it's a sustaining spell, i'd get adept centering to take care of that penalty. The shadow spell i can cast and negate the effect (if i suffer from it as well) with heightened concentration.

I feel like i'm missing something in this build but i can't place my finger on it. I'm not even sure if i should even bother with the pistols and just go for melee, since i can fly in very fast, cover a lot of ground. I could even drop the pistol skills and get a few lower level stealth type skills... hmmm

Posted by: Laodicea Jul 13 2010, 10:07 PM

I'm just going to leave this here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=31853&hl=lion
tldr: dont use the shapeshifter character creation rules. Use the Shapechange(Raven) spell.

Posted by: iategod Jul 13 2010, 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Laodicea @ Jul 13 2010, 11:07 PM) *
I'm just going to leave this here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=31853&hl=lion
tldr: dont use the shapeshifter character creation rules. Use the Shapechange(Raven) spell.



I considered that. But i really like the regeneration shapeshifters get. Not to mention the story elements

Posted by: Ard3 Jul 13 2010, 11:12 PM

Nice concept, but there are few things incorrect.

You cant have improved ability 6. The bonus is capped at 1.5 x skill. With skill 4 max bonus you can get is 2, 3 if you raise skill to 6.
And max overcasting Force is capped at 2 x Magic used in spellcasting = 4.

Since you cant use Improved skill at 6, drop it to 2 and you have 1 free point of magic for either other powers or to spellcasting. If you put it to spellcasting your maximums for casting would be 3 safe and 6 overcast.

Posted by: iategod Jul 13 2010, 11:55 PM

QUOTE (Ard3 @ Jul 14 2010, 12:12 AM) *
Nice concept, but there are few things incorrect.

You cant have improved ability 6. The bonus is capped at 1.5 x skill. With skill 4 max bonus you can get is 2, 3 if you raise skill to 6.
And max overcasting Force is capped at 2 x Magic used in spellcasting = 4.

Since you cant use Improved skill at 6, drop it to 2 and you have 1 free point of magic for either other powers or to spellcasting. If you put it to spellcasting your maximums for casting would be 3 safe and 6 overcast.


Thx, i fixed the build with the new improv ability lvl.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 14 2010, 01:20 AM

QUOTE (Ard3 @ Jul 13 2010, 07:12 PM) *
And max overcasting Force is capped at 2 x Magic used in spellcasting = 4.

If he's playing 4e 20th Anniversary, he uses his full Magic attribute to determine where overcasting starts. He only has a few dice to roll to cast, but he keep all the other benefits of Magic 5.

My question is: how are you going to get the guns in with you? You don't get extradimensional storage when you Shift, do you? Your clothes just fall off, and you drop whatever you were holding.

I'd go with spellcasting & combat spells instead of guns.

Posted by: Belvidere Jul 14 2010, 01:23 AM

Now I may be wrong from what I know of Shapeshifters but according to fluff, aren't they animals who can turn into humans? Therefore how is a Crow/Raven brother to an Eagle? They're completely different species. Along with I don't really know how you'd fly in, shoot then fly out because I'm also pretty sure your gear doesn't shapeshift with you.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 01:53 AM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 14 2010, 02:20 AM) *
If he's playing 4e 20th Anniversary, he uses his full Magic attribute to determine where overcasting starts. He only has a few dice to roll to cast, but he keep all the other benefits of Magic 5.

My question is: how are you going to get the guns in with you? You don't get extradimensional storage when you Shift, do you? Your clothes just fall off, and you drop whatever you were holding.

I'd go with spellcasting & combat spells instead of guns.


Hmmm maybe that's the thing that I was missing. I assumed that I could keep my guns cause when I asked my gm bout armor and I get any, he said that I could get some, customized that is for a cost. So I figure if I could wear the same armor from normal to human form then my other stuff would come along. I'll have to confirm this once again with my gm. After all, it is magic spin.gif

I'm debating now if I should go with touch based damage spells and a few range rather than guns. I just like options for continuous growth, I can increase my adept portion, or physical combat, or casting. I also like the simple action attacks.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 01:53 AM

Double

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 04:46 AM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 13 2010, 06:20 PM) *
If he's playing 4e 20th Anniversary, he uses his full Magic attribute to determine where overcasting starts. He only has a few dice to roll to cast, but he keep all the other benefits of Magic 5.

My question is: how are you going to get the guns in with you? You don't get extradimensional storage when you Shift, do you? Your clothes just fall off, and you drop whatever you were holding.

I'd go with spellcasting & combat spells instead of guns.


*IF* they are using the latest FAQ then he doesn't get to use his full Magic attribute towards spellcasting - only those points actually put towards Magic.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 14 2010, 05:13 AM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 12:46 AM) *
*IF* they are using the latest FAQ then he doesn't get to use his full Magic attribute towards spellcasting - only those points actually put towards Magic.

IF the FAQ is supposed to change rules (rather than clarifying them), then maybe... but that was a FAQ to a rule that existed in 4e, so there's a good chance it just got left in place when the 4e20a stuff got added.

That's two big "if"s: whether the FAQ is supposed to change rules, and whether that particular FAQ item has anything to do with "the latest".

(My personal advice is to ignore the FAQ until they get the 4e/4a stuff sorted out. Blatant contradiction of current rules isn't a FAQ answer, it's a rules change -- update, errata, whatever you want to call it. It's a change, not a clarification.)

- - -

Anyway. Going by either set of rules, I don't see any way for you to carry a gun.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 05:23 AM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 14 2010, 06:13 AM) *
IF the FAQ is supposed to change rules (rather than clarifying them), then maybe... but that was a FAQ to a rule that existed in 4e, so there's a good chance it just got left in place when the 4e20a stuff got added.

That's two big "if"s: whether the FAQ is supposed to change rules, and whether that particular FAQ item has anything to do with "the latest".

(My personal advice is to ignore the FAQ until they get the 4e/4a stuff sorted out. Blatant contradiction of current rules isn't a FAQ answer, it's a rules change -- update, errata, whatever you want to call it. It's a change, not a clarification.)

- - -

Anyway. Going by either set of rules, I don't see any way for you to carry a gun.


Ya, I'm asking my gm bout the guns and all but in any case I think I'm going to go with the previous suggestion and do spell casting for damage. As for the magic, we have had the question come up a few times in our sessions and the gm rules that we roll using the amount of magic we have in the stat, not what we used split, so that's the 4e 20th Anniversary rules..... I'll have to change the build a bit.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 05:32 AM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 13 2010, 11:56 PM) *
I have this concept of a shape shifting mystic adept that i would like to optimize some. The concept is that of a NAN member, one of twins, who's brother was born a white eagle which is greatly worshiped in most Amerindian societies. However, the twin brother was born a black bird (crow, raven) which brings animosity toward him. To make a long story short, he's the family's dirty little secret and thus is shadow running while his brother is getting all the glory and respect.

I think you have some big missunderstanding on what shapeshifters in SR are, their not metahumans who can take an animal form, they are animals who can shapeshift into metahumans.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 06:03 AM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 14 2010, 06:32 AM) *
I think you have some big missunderstanding on what shapeshifters in SR are, their not metahumans who can take an animal form, they are animals who can shapeshift into metahumans.


Right, who's to say he wasn't an egg from another nest? Or should ihave said a black eagle instead of crow/raven? I don't understand how my proposed idea of a character history is that large of a problem...

Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 06:21 AM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 08:03 AM) *
Right, who's to say he wasn't an egg from another nest? Or should ihave said a black eagle instead of crow/raven? I don't understand how my proposed idea of a character history is that large of a problem...

Unlike metahumans brothers, animal brothers cant really be from different species.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 06:36 AM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 13 2010, 11:13 PM) *
IF the FAQ is supposed to change rules (rather than clarifying them), then maybe... but that was a FAQ to a rule that existed in 4e, so there's a good chance it just got left in place when the 4e20a stuff got added.

That's two big "if"s: whether the FAQ is supposed to change rules, and whether that particular FAQ item has anything to do with "the latest".

(My personal advice is to ignore the FAQ until they get the 4e/4a stuff sorted out. Blatant contradiction of current rules isn't a FAQ answer, it's a rules change -- update, errata, whatever you want to call it. It's a change, not a clarification.)

- - -

Anyway. Going by either set of rules, I don't see any way for you to carry a gun.


Actually, the FAQ is pretty clear about the topic as is the rulebook. The FAQ was written well after 4e20a was published which is why I said *if* the faq is being used. You can argue semantics of FAQ vs. errata all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the latest info released regarding the issue is in the FAQ.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 14 2010, 06:45 AM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 01:23 AM) *
Ya, I'm asking my gm bout the guns and all but in any case I think I'm going to go with the previous suggestion and do spell casting for damage. As for the magic, we have had the question come up a few times in our sessions and the gm rules that we roll using the amount of magic we have in the stat, not what we used split, so that's the 4e 20th Anniversary rules..... I'll have to change the build a bit.

Cool, sounds like you'll be stealthier and more effective (silent spellcasting vs. gunshots).

Regarding the magic ruling, IMHO it is 4e 20a rules to use the full magic stat for almost everything (not your casting dicepool), so your GM is doing that bit right.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 06:47 AM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 08:36 AM) *
Actually, the FAQ is pretty clear about the topic as is the rulebook. The FAQ was written well after 4e20a was published which is why I said *if* the faq is being used. You can argue semantics of FAQ vs. errata all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the latest info released regarding the issue is in the FAQ.

That part of the FAQ isn't new and can savely be ignored as its directly contradicts the actual rules in the latest version of the rulebook.

Posted by: Makki Jul 14 2010, 08:51 AM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 14 2010, 08:21 AM) *
Unlike metahumans brothers, animal brothers cant really be from different species.


well some species like the cuckoo lay their eggs in foreign nests. so the young cuckoo will essentially grow up with some eagle brothers and sisters...

Posted by: Lansdren Jul 14 2010, 09:26 AM

I would say be aware that for a while your going to stick out like a sore thumb on the astral. If your going Karmagen then I would suggest a minimum of one initiation for masking. Also be aware of the limitations of regeneration. Called shots to the head or spine are not regeneratable and magic damage (including drain) is also not regeneratable.

I have a bear shifter in my group who can take alot of damage but he's the one in the drek if a spirt catches him from the astral side of the veil

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 12:26 PM

QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 14 2010, 10:26 AM) *
I would say be aware that for a while your going to stick out like a sore thumb on the astral. If your going Karmagen then I would suggest a minimum of one initiation for masking. Also be aware of the limitations of regeneration. Called shots to the head or spine are not regeneratable and magic damage (including drain) is also not regeneratable.

I have a bear shifter in my group who can take alot of damage but he's the one in the drek if a spirt catches him from the astral side of the veil


Called shots to the head/spine are understandably unregenerable, and some magic damage, sure but how bout self inflicted physical damage? Say, from my over casting?

Posted by: Makki Jul 14 2010, 12:51 PM

it's still drain damage. but NPC bloodmages could use the Sacrifice Metamagic, where you cut yourself and use the damage done to compensate drain. you can of course regenerate knife cuts..

Posted by: Lansdren Jul 14 2010, 12:55 PM

QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 14 2010, 01:51 PM) *
it's still drain damage. but NPC bloodmages could use the Sacrifice Metamagic, where you cut yourself and use the damage done to compensate drain. you can of course regenerate knife cuts..


I can see some people arguring with that point.


But doesnt matter to me blood mages are worth lots of money to everyone.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 02:05 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 13 2010, 11:47 PM) *
That part of the FAQ isn't new and can savely be ignored as its directly contradicts the actual rules in the latest version of the rulebook.


The FAQ was released just a couple months ago and the portion regarding mystic adepts was new.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 10:05 AM) *
The FAQ was released just a couple months ago and the portion regarding mystic adepts was new.


Still doesn't make it RAW. There are numerous examples where the FAQ directly contradicts what is in the book, thereby invalidating it as being legitimate. One of them is even an example that uses the same rule to directly contradict an example in the book (that is, the two examples come to a different conclusion just through rule text interpretation).

If the intent is to change the rules for balance it is not an answer to a Frequently Asked Question, but a Rules Change which is the job of Errata.

QUOTE
Frequently asked questions, or FAQs are listed questions and answers, all supposed to be frequently asked in some context, and pertaining to a particular topic.

QUOTE
An erratum or corrigendum (plurals: errata, corrigenda) is a correction of a book. [...] As a general rule, publishers issue an erratum for a production error (i.e. an error introduced during the publishing process) and a corrigendum for an author's error.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 02:40 PM

QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 14 2010, 01:51 PM) *
it's still drain damage. but NPC bloodmages could use the Sacrifice Metamagic, where you cut yourself and use the damage done to compensate drain. you can of course regenerate knife cuts..



Ok. How bout first aid or heal spell? If i over cast and take damage can i heal the damage with a 99cent first aid kit or a simple heal spell?

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 14 2010, 07:30 AM) *
Still doesn't make it RAW. There are numerous examples where the FAQ directly contradicts what is in the book, thereby invalidating it as being legitimate. One of them is even an example that uses the same rule to directly contradict an example in the book (that is, the two examples come to a different conclusion just through rule text interpretation).

If the intent is to change the rules for balance it is not an answer to a Frequently Asked Question, but a Rules Change which is the job of Errata.


This is getting ridiculous. I don't care which one you use. The FAQ is newer. Which is why I have said multiple times *IF* you use the FAQ you have one set of rules, if you ignore the FAQ you have another set of rules. There is no universal law that invalidates the FAQ as legitimate just because it contradicts what was published previously - that is something *you* make up so you can justify ignoring the FAQ. Play however you want, but don't say the FAQ is invalid since it contradicts the rulebook unless you can show me a passage in the rulebook that it always takes precedence over anything not labeled "errata".

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 10:46 AM) *
This is getting ridiculous. I don't care which one you use. The FAQ is newer.


"New" doesn't mean anything when it's not official rules material.

QUOTE
Which is why I have said multiple times *IF* you use the FAQ you have one set of rules, if you ignore the FAQ you have another set of rules. There is no universal law that invalidates the FAQ as legitimate just because it contradicts what was published previously - that is something *you* make up so you can justify ignoring the FAQ. Play however you want, but don't say the FAQ is invalid since it contradicts the rulebook unless you can show me a passage in the rulebook that it always takes precedence over anything not labeled "errata".


When discussing RAW one cannot use the FAQ. Yes, his group may be going by the FAQ, maybe not. But in a rules debate the FAQ is nothing more than the freelancers' personal house rules.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 14 2010, 09:00 AM) *
"New" doesn't mean anything when it's not official rules material.



When discussing RAW one cannot use the FAQ. Yes, his group may be going by the FAQ, maybe not. But in a rules debate the FAQ is nothing more than the freelancers' personal house rules.


This distinction is nothing more than *your* personal house rule that states "The published rulebook always takes precedence over the FAQ." Can you show me where in the rulebook that it says to ignore the FAQ? Can you show me a reference that states the FAQ is nothing more than a freelancers houserule (and is not edited or proofread before being released to the *official* website)?

Posted by: Lansdren Jul 14 2010, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 04:10 PM) *
This distinction is nothing more than *your* personal house rule that states "The published rulebook always takes precedence over the FAQ." Can you show me where in the rulebook that it says to ignore the FAQ? Can you show me a reference that states the FAQ is nothing more than a freelancers houserule (and is not edited or proofread before being released to the *official* website)?



To be fair can you produce a rule from any printed book stating the FAQ overides the book?


I'm still torn between listening to the FAQ or not in some ways its been handy in others it has caused more arguments and confusion. I think the FAQ was a good idea but beaten to death by contridictions before it could be tested and cleaned up.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 03:26 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 05:10 PM) *
This distinction is nothing more than *your* personal house rule that states "The published rulebook always takes precedence over the FAQ." Can you show me where in the rulebook that it says to ignore the FAQ? Can you show me a reference that states the FAQ is nothing more than a freelancers houserule (and is not edited or proofread before being released to the *official* website)?

thats not his house rule, books always take precedense over answers of a FAQ as its not FAQ:s place to change rules, thats what errata is for.
And arguing for the FAQ in this particular instance is totally inane, when that part of the corebook was spesifically changed to say what it says in the latest errata.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 03:34 PM

Before getting a reply from my gm on the weapons questions, i thought i'd just go with touch magic. Be the first naked amerindian "touching" people in that special, memorable kinda of way.

[ Spoiler ]


So i'll be in full defense most of the time, working my way in to touch range. If they even see me to begin with.Once in range, multi cast (decrease wilpower, death touch, death touch) and/or multi hit if more than 1 target in range.
For range defense i'll have combat sense+reaction+dodge (range spec) x2. For melee i'll have combat sense+reaction+unarmed x2. Magic defense is reaction+counterspelling (correct?).
In retaliation i'll have counterstrike which will add the net hits to my counter attach to even hit the target. Like riposte but adding the net hits. Setup if i have first IP, finishing move if need be. Multi strike and watchful guard as well.
Now i'm wondering if i should split my magic 3/3 or 2/3/1(for bioware or cyberware). If i go this route i could very easily become a face.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 03:36 PM

QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 14 2010, 09:15 AM) *
To be fair can you produce a rule from any printed book stating the FAQ overides the book?


I'm still torn between listening to the FAQ or not in some ways its been handy in others it has caused more arguments and confusion. I think the FAQ was a good idea but beaten to death by contridictions before it could be tested and cleaned up.


No more than anyone can produce a rule saying the errata overrides the the book.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 03:39 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 14 2010, 09:26 AM) *
thats not his house rule, books always take precedense over answers of a FAQ as its not FAQ:s place to change rules, thats what errata is for.
And arguing for the FAQ in this particular instance is totally inane, when that part of the corebook was spesifically changed to say what it says in the latest errata.


Where is it stated that that is what errata is for and not the FAQ? Also, the errata page does reference the FAQ as a place of "rules questions, and more."

Posted by: BobChuck Jul 14 2010, 05:04 PM

Oh for Pete's sakes... can you two drop the "FAQ vs RAW" argument, or move it to it's own thread? there's more posts of you two arguing than there are related to the topic, which is a rather complicated build.

It's not up to either of you which takes precedence, it's up the Player and his GM. so present both sides, agree to disagree, and walk away.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 14 2010, 05:13 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 11:34 AM) *
Spells
Elemental Aura
increase reflex (i got a lvl 3 sustaining focus for this)
invisibility
resist pain
death touch
physical barrier
decrease attrib (Willpower decrease for intimidation and extra damage with touch spells)
combat sense
heal
??? (Not sure what other spell i should get, shatter, knockout or a range spell)

I recommend trimming your list:
- Elemental Aura
- Invisibility
- Heal
- a ranged attack (stunbolt, manabolt, stunball, manaball)
- Fashion

You will profit most from casting & sustaining just one spell at a time. So, out of combat you sustain Invisibility, and in combat you bust out the big guns and sustain Elemental Aura. That way you aren't spending your first four Complex Actions on buffs. Just one buff, and then you get on with the beat-down.

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 11:34 AM) *
Adept powers
Traceless walk (1) add this to invisibility for good times
Heightened concentration (1)
counterstrike lvl 2 (1)

There's nothing wrong with Heightened Concentration, but I wouldn't buy both it and a Sustaining Focus.

Instead, consider:
- Improved Reflexes 2 (2.5 pp) +2 IPs, +2 Reflex
- Critical Strike 2 (0.5 pp) +2 DV to unarmed attacks

Having the Improved Reflexes "integral" means you get 3 IPs on the first round of combat, rather than needing to cast a spell as your ONLY action during the first round.

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 11:34 AM) *
Now i'm wondering if i should split my magic 3/3 or 2/3/1(for bioware or cyberware). If i go this route i could very easily become a face.

You can't have cyber or bioware. Well, you can have deltaware in your animal form only, but that's basically the same as "no".

Also:

- TAKE BINDING. I'd recommend Summoning 4 / Binding 4 to start. With your Charisma, you can get a lot of mileage out of Binding.

- Have a ranged attack. Stunbolt, manabolt, whatever. Honestly, it's such a small difference in drain between Death Touch and Manabolt, I'd just take Manabolt. My plan would be to cast Manabolt from a distance until they got into close combat with me, and then cast Elemental Aura (once), sustain it with my Focus, and punch them to death.

- You have Restricted Gear. That ought to allow you a Sustaining Focus 4 rather than 3. If you only take a force 3 Sustaining Focus, you get some Karma back.

- Fashion is an amazing spell for someone who suddenly finds himself in a strange place, completely naked. Ask if Sterilize or Makeover can remove blood from clothing. If either can, then take that spell, as having that + Fashion allow you to duck into an alley and come out looking totally innocent.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 05:19 PM

QUOTE (BobChuck @ Jul 14 2010, 06:04 PM) *
Oh for Pete's sakes... can you two drop the "FAQ vs RAW" argument, or move it to it's own thread? there's more posts of you two arguing than there are related to the topic, which is a rather complicated build.

It's not up to either of you which takes precedence, it's up the Player and his GM. so present both sides, agree to disagree, and walk away.


correct... and i already established which rules/faq we are using. Could use more optimization or correction comments, pls, thx

Posted by: BobChuck Jul 14 2010, 05:30 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 01:19 PM) *
correct... and i already established which rules/faq we are using. Could use more optimization or correction comments, pls, thx


I'm actually looking for feedback on this topic as well. Only had the game two weeks, and shapechanging / mystic adepts are particularly complicated.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 05:46 PM

In regards to optimization, I'd personally go for the Improved Reflexes spell than the adept power, as it is a large chunk of PP getting it (you could instead put two magic back towards casting spells and have about the same chance of getting as many IPs). You do need a good sustaining focus, but its worth it IMO.

Posted by: rstehwien Jul 14 2010, 05:51 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 08:40 AM) *
Ok. How bout first aid or heal spell? If i over cast and take damage can i heal the damage with a 99cent first aid kit or a simple heal spell?

SR4a pag 178
Neither Stun nor Physical damage resulting from Drain can be healed by magical means such as sorcery or spirit powers.

From the FAQ

Can Physical Drain be healed by magic? What about Regeneration, adept powers, or mystical healing?

Damage from Drain cannot be healed by magical means including Healing spells or the Empathic Healing or Rapid Healing adept powers. Even the mystical healing optional rule (p.123, Augmentation) cannot add dice to Healing Tests to help with injuries including Drain.

Drain is considered magical damage, and is not subject to the Regeneration power.

The price you pay for spellcasting is drain and nothing but time can make you better.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 14 2010, 05:59 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 14 2010, 01:46 PM) *
In regards to optimization, I'd personally go for the Improved Reflexes spell than the adept power, as it is a large chunk of PP getting it (you could instead put two magic back towards casting spells and have about the same chance of getting as many IPs). You do need a good sustaining focus, but its worth it IMO.

Mmm. The trouble IMHO is that either you're lit up on the Astral (with a Sustaining Focus) or you're a sitting duck for your first combat round (if you don't cast until combat starts). Also, wards & barriers.

He has enough Karma to initiate two or three times, which will give him +2 pp and possibly +Masking or +Adept Centering... assuming he's allowed to Initiate during character creation. If not, well, there's where your first earned Karma can go.

The third way to get more IPs is to summon & bind a Spirit of Man (force 4 to 6) who casts & sustains Improved Reflexes for you. He can technically do this forever for the cost of one service, but if you try this your GM will be morally justified in throwing dice at you.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 06:00 PM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 14 2010, 07:13 PM) *
You will profit most from casting & sustaining just one spell at a time. So, out of combat you sustain Invisibility, and in combat you bust out the big guns and sustain Elemental Aura. That way you aren't spending your first four Complex Actions on buffs. Just one buff, and then you get on with the beat-down.

ever heard about this wonderful think called multicasting.
QUOTE (rstehwien @ Jul 14 2010, 07:51 PM) *
The price you pay for spellcasting is drain and nothing but time can make you better.

Not really, firstaid works wonders on kepping the make casting all day long

Posted by: Nifft Jul 14 2010, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 14 2010, 02:00 PM) *
ever heard about this wonderful think called multicasting.

With a SIX DIE casting pool? You're misspelling "suicide".

Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 06:18 PM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 14 2010, 08:15 PM) *
With a SIX DIE casting pool? You're misspelling "suicide".

how does a casting pool have anythink to do with character killing himself and there are these nifty super secret thinks called foci that i hear add to casting pools after the slitting wink.gif

Posted by: Nifft Jul 14 2010, 06:47 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 14 2010, 02:18 PM) *
how does a casting pool have anythink to do with character killing himself and there are these nifty super secret thinks called foci that i hear add to casting pools after the slitting wink.gif

Apparently I don't speak Mäxglish.

What do you mean?

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 06:54 PM

ok lets see;

My character will be part of a Doc Wagon. Such that, we normally get a call and bout 4min of travel time to the call, that's when i was planning on casting my sustained spells such as lightning reflexes (with rank 3 sustain focus) combat sense (with the 5 or 6 sustain focus that i got for restricted gear) and either invisibility or aura with adept centering depends if i need stealth or just go all out. According to the core book it says i can have up to my logic in activated foci... is that for all foci or just sustain foci? I'll have a weapon foci as well (hand wraps), does it count as an activated foci?

We reach the scene and i go flying in, locating the client then either neutralize the threat near him/her or just start the healing biz. This is where i was debating on either having shadow/mist or physical barrier. I like the idea of blinding everyone in my area, with my defense and a -6 to visibility i would be pretty safe naked. I'll negate the effect with heightened concentration if i suffer from the effects myself (ask gm, waiting for reply).

As for spirits, i'll have to read up on it. I considered it, but didn't want to focus my character on it. I don't know the politics involved with spirits and a free spirit. I mean we have a free spirit in the team and he seems to be very anti magic, go figure. Dunno if they will be kos to one another or not.

I will have foci, casting, binding, counter spelling, etc etc. Most rank 3, all under 12 availability unless i get the restricted gear (again). I'll also have fetishe.... the benefits of having no need to buy weapons or armor and having a large tribal NAN connection/history.

What i can't get is why first aid would help with over casting yet nothing else can. No heal spell, no magical regen powers, no trauma damper, nothing.... doesn't make much sense to me. A mundane can shoot all day long with no threat. I'm not saying drain is not needed, i agree with the drain idea. But the healing should be allowed after the fact. I mean if i take physical damage from an over cast and i get my shadow run done and go home to rest with a doc there i can't do anything to increase the healing of the damage. Not talking bout lessening it, just healing it.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 06:59 PM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 14 2010, 02:47 PM) *
Apparently I don't speak Mäxglish.

What do you mean?



4 spellcasting + 2 magice = 6 dice

Split is 3/3

Force 3 Power Focus

Dice pools of 6/6

Force 3 spellcasting focus

Dice pools of 9/9

Spcialization

11/11

Mentor spirit

13/13

Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 07:00 PM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 14 2010, 08:47 PM) *
Apparently I don't speak Mäxglish.

What do you mean?

im asking how does a small cast pool spell suicide to you, i cant see any realtion between the two.
And foci doe wonders for your multicasting pool sizes as does mentor bonuses and spesialisations by the way.

Only one foci per test draco18, but you can get a force 5 spellcasting foci at chargen so thats only one die away from that pool.
With that foci and menor bonus and spec you can split that pool sixht ways and still have 10 dice in all of those pools.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 07:40 PM

the way i see it,
i win first IP
i'm in melee range
step 1
agility (5)+unarmed (touch spec 7)+weapon foci (2)+2 for touch attack only (core pg 148)=16 to see if i even touch them
lets say i hit with 4 net hits

multi cast (decrease attrib, death touch) all at force 3
step 2
roll spell damage magic (6)+spell casting (5 since decrease attrib is not my spec)+3 power foci=14 against the targets willpower (+counterspell if he/she has it)

step 3
say i roll 4 hits for step2, and the opponent has no counter spell rolling only with a willpower of 3 getting 1 hit. Means he get's -3 to will, thus he's "incapacitated" (core pg 200)

Step 4
roll for death touch damage. Magic (6)+spellcasting (7 with combat spell spec)+3power foci+2 mentor spirit= 18. Enemy has nothing to roll for defense.... so he explodes into a fine red mist ala Rorschach.

DRAIN TESTS
decrease attrib has (f/2)+1 drain, +1 for the second spell cast=resist 2
death touch has (f/2)-2, +1 for the second spell cast=not sure here, resist 1 i would guess



does this make sense..... i'm not 100% sure on the muticasting since it's only 1 target.


Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 03:40 PM) *
multi cast (decrease attrib, death touch) all at force 3
step 2
roll spell damage magic (6)+spell casting (5 since decrease attrib is not my spec)+3 power foci=14 against the targets willpower (+counterspell if he/she has it)


This section is slightly off. You're multicasting

Base:
Magic 6 + Spellcasting 5 = 11;

Dec Attrib:
Base 6 (half, round up*) + 3 Power Focus = 9

Death
Base 5 (half, round down*) + 3 Power Focus + 2 Specialization = 10

So two spells, 9 dice and 10 dice, versus Willpower+Counterspelling (per each spell).

*You split the pool and because you have a spec in the death touch domain, you might as well let Decrease Attribute have the extra die.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 08:24 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 14 2010, 08:56 PM) *
This section is slightly off. You're multicasting

Base:
Magic 6 + Spellcasting 5 = 11;

Dec Attrib:
Base 6 (half, round up*) + 3 Power Focus = 9

Death
Base 5 (half, round down*) + 3 Power Focus + 2 Specialization = 10

So two spells, 9 dice and 10 dice, versus Willpower+Counterspelling (per each spell).

*You split the pool and because you have a spec in the death touch domain, you might as well let Decrease Attribute have the extra die.


right, corebook 4e pg173.
Multiple spells may be cast with the same Complex Action, but to do so
the magician must split her Magic + Spellcasting dice pool between
each target.
Since it was one target would i still split the the pool? Could i avoid this by declaring Multi-strike maneuver, doing 2 attacks to the same target?

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 12:40 PM) *
the way i see it,
i win first IP
i'm in melee range
step 1
agility (5)+unarmed (touch spec 7)+weapon foci (2)+2 for touch attack only (core pg 148)=16 to see if i even touch them
lets say i hit with 4 net hits

multi cast (decrease attrib, death touch) all at force 3
step 2
roll spell damage magic (6)+spell casting (5 since decrease attrib is not my spec)+3 power foci=14 against the targets willpower (+counterspell if he/she has it)

step 3
say i roll 4 hits for step2, and the opponent has no counter spell rolling only with a willpower of 3 getting 1 hit. Means he get's -3 to will, thus he's "incapacitated" (core pg 200)

Step 4
roll for death touch damage. Magic (6)+spellcasting (7 with combat spell spec)+3power foci+2 mentor spirit= 18. Enemy has nothing to roll for defense.... so he explodes into a fine red mist ala Rorschach.

DRAIN TESTS
decrease attrib has (f/2)+1 drain, +1 for the second spell cast=resist 2
death touch has (f/2)-2, +1 for the second spell cast=not sure here, resist 1 i would guess



does this make sense..... i'm not 100% sure on the muticasting since it's only 1 target.


The maximum you will ever do for Death Touch is 6DV if you are casting at Force 3. There is no damage roll for a spell. You get Force + Net Hits (but you can only get a maximum of 3 hits - not net hits - on a Force 3 spell). So if you cast a Force 3 spell, get 3+ hits and the defender had no hits on his willpower roll then you will do 6 damage.

According to RAW you only need to split your pool per target - not per spell - so you should be able to at least keep a reasonably large dice pool for spellcasting.

I don't know if you are trying to optimize or just going for flavor - but you are way better off getting your damage from adept powers. I posted the following in the Martial Arts shapeshifter thread:

Actually, you don't need good STR if you are a mystic adept. You don't need any good physical stats if you can cast Shapeshift (you just lose armor).

Mystic Adept
STR 1
Magic 6 (5 towards adept powers, 1 point towards spellcasting)

3 Levels of Martial arts that give damage value as a bonus.


*IF* you are using the latest FAQ you are limited to Force 2 spells and maximum of 5 levels of an adept power. If not, then bump Critical Strike to 6 and you *could* have up to +6DV from Elemental Aura as well. The breakdown below is using the FAQ.

If you overcast elemental aura you can get 2 hits.
Adept powers: Improved Reflexes 2 (2.5 pts), Heightened Concentration (1 pt), Critical Strike 5 (1.25 pts), with a left over .25 (maybe for Penetrating Strike)

Your minimum damage on a strike if you have 1 STR is:
1 (for 1 STR)
2 (for elemental aura)
5 (for Critical Strike)
3 (for Martial Arts)
1 (for the 1 net hit)

12 DV for 1 net hit is pretty good. Not to mention that the elemental effect *halves* armor and affects spirits (so you don't need Killing Hands) and generally has a secondary effect - I like Sound, Electricity, and Acid.

With Heightened Concentration you can also add in +4 DV and ignore the -4 penalty for a Called Shot - which puts you at 16 DV on a 1 net hit punch, that halves armor + elemental effect.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 14 2010, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 14 2010, 02:59 PM) *
4 spellcasting + 2 magice = 6 dice

Split is 3/3

Force 3 Power Focus

Dice pools of 6/6

Force 3 spellcasting focus

We're talking about casting spells of three different spell types: Health (for reflexes), Detection (combat sense), and Manipulation (elemental aura). He only has one Focus right now (sustain 3). You want him to buy FOUR more foci? Also, standard action to activate each of those four, or you might as well just use three Sustaining foci and cast out of combat.

Buying ONE power focus 2 might be a good idea, but buying THREE spellcasting foci 3 just not practical at chargen.

Same deal with specialization and mentor spirit. Pick ONE of those, you do not get all three.

Dice pools are 6/6/11, how do you like your expected two hits, two hits, four hits?

- - -

That said, I didn't think a Power Focus worked like that. Hmm. Here's what the text says:
QUOTE (SR4a @ p.200)
Power foci are the most potent and treasured of all. Possession of a power focus feeds a magician’s Magic directly, making her efforts more powerful in all forms of magical ability. A power focus adds its Force to all tests in which the magician’s Magic is included. A single power focus can increase a magician’s ability to cast spells, call on and con- trol spirits, and bypass astral barriers.

I took the part about "feeding a magician's Magic directly" to mean that it added to your Magic score before the split, but maybe that's just flavor text. Maybe this is a topic for another thread... if power foci do work like you say (and on re-reading, they probably do), they may be a wee bit too strong compared to vanilla spellcasting foci. Hmm.

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 14 2010, 03:00 PM) *
im asking how does a small cast pool spell suicide to you, i cant see any realtion between the two.
And foci doe wonders for your multicasting pool sizes as does mentor bonuses and spesialisations by the way.

Only one foci per test draco18, but you can get a force 5 spellcasting foci at chargen so thats only one die away from that pool.
With that foci and menor bonus and spec you can split that pool sixht ways and still have 10 dice in all of those pools.

It's suicide to cast spells that won't succeed but will have a high drain, because then you then need to go and re-cast them over again, risking the chance of sucking up a high drain several times.

[Elemental] Aura is pretty high drain, and you want max hits on it to be effective in melee if you aren't taking any Critical Strike.

IMHO, anyway.

Posted by: Laodicea Jul 14 2010, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 13 2010, 04:56 PM) *
I have this concept of a shape shifting mystic adept that i would like to optimize some. The concept is that of a NAN member, one of twins, who's brother was born a white eagle which is greatly worshiped in most Amerindian societies. However, the twin brother was born a black bird (crow, raven) which brings animosity toward him. To make a long story short, he's the family's dirty little secret and thus is shadow running while his brother is getting all the glory and respect.



I quite like this concept by the way. My wife does, too. She said you should write a book about it.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 09:35 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 09:32 PM) *
The maximum you will ever do for Death Touch is 6DV if you are casting at Force 3. There is no damage roll for a spell. You get Force + Net Hits (but you can only get a maximum of 3 hits - not net hits - on a Force 3 spell). So if you cast a Force 3 spell, get 3+ hits and the defender had no hits on his willpower roll then you will do 6 damage.

According to RAW you only need to split your pool per target - not per spell - so you should be able to at least keep a reasonably large dice pool for spellcasting.

I don't know if you are trying to optimize or just going for flavor - but you are way better off getting your damage from adept powers. I posted the following in the Martial Arts shapeshifter thread:

Actually, you don't need good STR if you are a mystic adept. You don't need any good physical stats if you can cast Shapeshift (you just lose armor).

Mystic Adept
STR 1
Magic 6 (5 towards adept powers, 1 point towards spellcasting)

3 Levels of Martial arts that give damage value as a bonus.


*IF* you are using the latest FAQ you are limited to Force 2 spells and maximum of 5 levels of an adept power. If not, then bump Critical Strike to 6 and you *could* have up to +6DV from Elemental Aura as well. The breakdown below is using the FAQ.

If you overcast elemental aura you can get 2 hits.
Adept powers: Improved Reflexes 2 (2.5 pts), Heightened Concentration (1 pt), Critical Strike 5 (1.25 pts), with a left over .25 (maybe for Penetrating Strike)

Your minimum damage on a strike if you have 1 STR is:
1 (for 1 STR)
2 (for elemental aura)
5 (for Critical Strike)
3 (for Martial Arts)
1 (for the 1 net hit)

12 DV for 1 net hit is pretty good. Not to mention that the elemental effect *halves* armor and affects spirits (so you don't need Killing Hands) and generally has a secondary effect - I like Sound, Electricity, and Acid.

With Heightened Concentration you can also add in +4 DV and ignore the -4 penalty for a Called Shot - which puts you at 16 DV on a 1 net hit punch, that halves armor + elemental effect.


Cool idea, and i saw that in the other thread. However like you said, with a force of 3 i could only get 6dv. I could over cast, up to magic x2 right? (using the faq rules i believe) Force 12 would only be 4 drain resist which i could swing easily. Little risk there. With your method i would run into half armor (impact i think) while with touch spell there's none and i still get the elemental effect/damage from elemental aura. With decrease attrib willpower+sound elemental attack=vomiting fun

I like your concept for possible future advancement of my character, but i feel as if i have more options with magic instead of just physical damage. Being a shapeshifter places me in both spiritual and physical world. Truth be told, if i need the damage i can get an initiate grade and invest the points in crit strike easily.

What are your thoughts on Shadow vs invisibility? I really like the shadow spell for conceptual reasons (seeping darkness from my character's black wings), could make the darkness take the shape of a murder of crows. Not sure on how these sustain spells work, if i wanted to make it a -6 then i would have to make it a force 6?

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 10:13 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 03:35 PM) *
Cool idea, and i saw that in the other thread. However like you said, with a force of 3 i could only get 6dv. I could over cast, up to magic x2 right? (using the faq rules i believe) Force 12 would only be 4 drain resist which i could swing easily. Little risk there. With your method i would run into half armor (impact i think) while with touch spell there's none and i still get the elemental effect/damage from elemental aura. With decrease attrib willpower+sound elemental attack=vomiting fun

I like your concept for possible future advancement of my character, but i feel as if i have more options with magic instead of just physical damage. Being a shapeshifter places me in both spiritual and physical world. Truth be told, if i need the damage i can get an initiate grade and invest the points in crit strike easily.

What are your thoughts on Shadow vs invisibility? I really like the shadow spell for conceptual reasons (seeping darkness from my character's black wings), could make the darkness take the shape of a murder of crows. Not sure on how these sustain spells work, if i wanted to make it a -6 then i would have to make it a force 6?


Yes, since you aren't using the FAQ you could overcast to 12. The problem is that resisting 4 drain on average requires at least a 12 dice pool. That isn't a trivial amount of drain to soak. In your game, the melee attack is better since you could get that 6th level of Critical Strike and you only have to resist drain when you first cast Elemental Aura - not every time you attack. In your game, with that build above, your character is doing just as much damage as a Force 12 spell every punch (that is assuming only 2 hits on the elemental aura cast). Also, you aren't doing physical damage with the attack, elemental aura treats the entire attack as that element type.

Here are the spells that I have found useful at low Force levels with this type of build.
Elemental Aura
Invisibility
Deflection
Shapeshift (I used this build with the shapeshift spell... not an actual shapeshifter)
Camouflage
Physical Double
Levitate
Gecko Crawl
Combat Sense

With a couple of low level sustaining foci (make sure you can justify keeping them when you shift) you can give yourself some pretty good defensive stats. Combat Sense and Deflection are the best because they work against drones - all the Illusion spells have to beat object resistance which can be rough.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 10:16 PM

QUOTE (Nifft @ Jul 14 2010, 04:49 PM) *
Stuff


All of what I posted were hypothetical examples. Most multicasting is done dual-casting of the same spell (stunbolt + stunbolt, for example) and therefore both sides of the split get the benefits of foci and specialization/mentor.

They were examples of how you could have "reasonable dice pools" with a split dice pool while still having very low magic.

While it is unlikely a shapeshifter can pick up all of these bonuses at the start of the game, it is something to look at to compensate for a mere magic of 2 (for the purpose of dice for spellcasting).

I played an Elf Drake (that's 95 build points on race) with 5 magic (3 for spells) and still managed to get off most of my spells (notably I had three, one of which I never got a good opportunity to cast; Improved Reflexes (F2 sustaining focus), Camouflage (-2 DP mod sustained), and Borrow Senses (never cast, but would have been a -2 DP mod as well)). I didn't have a power foci (too expensive) or even a spellcasting focus. Or a mentor spirit. Or even a specialization.

I threw 7 dice at F2/F3 spells and if I didn't do well, but didn't take drain,* I did it again.

So yes, it is entirely possible to be an effective caster at low dice pools/low magic. You just have to know what spells you absolutely need and which ones you can get away with casting at low force values.

*F2/2 = 1+2 = 3 DV for Increase Reflexes (1 DV for Camouflage). 4 Will, 5 Logic = 9 dice to resist, so on average I didn't take drain damage (I think I took one box once).

Posted by: Mäx Jul 14 2010, 10:25 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 15 2010, 01:13 AM) *
Yes, since you aren't using the FAQ you could overcast to 12. The problem is that resisting 4 drain on average requires at least a 12 dice pool.

12 dice is both atributes at 5 and a fetish for the spell, i dont think i have any mage builds that cant handle a measly 4 points of drain.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 10:26 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 14 2010, 04:16 PM) *
All of what I posted were hypothetical examples. Most multicasting is done dual-casting of the same spell (stunbolt + stunbolt, for example) and therefore both sides of the split get the benefits of foci and specialization/mentor.

They were examples of how you could have "reasonable dice pools" with a split dice pool while still having very low magic.

While it is unlikely a shapeshifter can pick up all of these bonuses at the start of the game, it is something to look at to compensate for a mere magic of 2 (for the purpose of dice for spellcasting).

I played an Elf Drake (that's 95 build points on race) with 5 magic (3 for spells) and still managed to get off most of my spells (notably I had three, one of which I never got a good opportunity to cast; Improved Reflexes (F2 sustaining focus), Camouflage (-2 DP mod sustained), and Borrow Senses (never cast, but would have been a -2 DP mod as well)). I didn't have a power foci (too expensive) or even a spellcasting focus. Or a mentor spirit. Or even a specialization.

I threw 7 dice at F2/F3 spells and if I didn't do well, but didn't take drain,* I did it again.

So yes, it is entirely possible to be an effective caster at low dice pools/low magic. You just have to know what spells you absolutely need and which ones you can get away with casting at low force values.

*F2/2 = 1+2 = 3 DV for Increase Reflexes (1 DV for Camouflage). 4 Will, 5 Logic = 9 dice to resist, so on average I didn't take drain damage (I think I took one box once).


Yeah, but with a Force 2 sustaining focus you only get 1 more IP maximum.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 10:32 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 06:26 PM) *
Yeah, but with a Force 2 sustaining focus you only get 1 more IP maximum.


You are correct there sir. But seeing as all the combats I was actually involved in I took no actions (other than "lie there and bleed" or "run towards/away from the fight") I might as well have not-bought the spell and focus.

Except two combats, one of which was "swarms of things. What's your damage assuming no dodge?" (which was still a run and gun) and "kill stuff until the chopper gets here" (and that one I stood over with the sniper and spat fire at things). So that second pass did come up enough to be useful. Sure a third would have been nice, but I had no BP left. None. There was not 1 more BP I could have eked out of anywhere and I'd have needed two to upgrade my sustaining focus at chargen.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 10:39 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 14 2010, 04:32 PM) *
You are correct there sir. But seeing as all the combats I was actually involved in I took no actions (other than "lie there and bleed" or "run towards/away from the fight") I might as well have not-bought the spell and focus.

Except two combats, one of which was "swarms of things. What's your damage assuming no dodge?" (which was still a run and gun) and "kill stuff until the chopper gets here" (and that one I stood over with the sniper and spat fire at things). So that second pass did come up enough to be useful. Sure a third would have been nice, but I had no BP left. None. There was not 1 more BP I could have eked out of anywhere and I'd have needed two to upgrade my sustaining focus at chargen.


Heh, sounds like an interesting game.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 14 2010, 10:43 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 06:39 PM) *
Heh, sounds like an interesting game.


It was the Renraku archology shutdown campaign.
I reget not getting a little more out of my character, but it was a good run.

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 10:43 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 14 2010, 04:25 PM) *
12 dice is both atributes at 5 and a fetish for the spell, i dont think i have any mage builds that cant handle a measly 4 points of drain.


That is 4 on average - not a guaranteed 4 resisted. Plus, this is a mystic adept build focusing on melee. It is much more difficult to get an effective melee character, that can effectively cast/counter spells and effectively resist drain.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 11:02 PM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 14 2010, 11:13 PM) *
Yes, since you aren't using the FAQ you could overcast to 12. The problem is that resisting 4 drain on average requires at least a 12 dice pool. That isn't a trivial amount of drain to soak. In your game, the melee attack is better since you could get that 6th level of Critical Strike and you only have to resist drain when you first cast Elemental Aura - not every time you attack. In your game, with that build above, your character is doing just as much damage as a Force 12 spell every punch (that is assuming only 2 hits on the elemental aura cast). Also, you aren't doing physical damage with the attack, elemental aura treats the entire attack as that element type.

Here are the spells that I have found useful at low Force levels with this type of build.
Elemental Aura
Invisibility
Deflection
Shapeshift (I used this build with the shapeshift spell... not an actual shapeshifter)
Camouflage
Physical Double
Levitate
Gecko Crawl
Combat Sense

With a couple of low level sustaining foci (make sure you can justify keeping them when you shift) you can give yourself some pretty good defensive stats. Combat Sense and Deflection are the best because they work against drones - all the Illusion spells have to beat object resistance which can be rough.


As much as i hate to admit it, you are right. I really wanted to try something different but the numbers for my idea just don't add up in comparison with your concept. The problem i'm having now is with the whole concept. If regen doesn't help with self inflicted damage (over casting) then why bother being a shapeshifter when i can just get shapeshifting spell? For conceptual reasons? I can very easily make a NAN character with the same history/legend and make him a normal mystic adept, non-shapeshifter. That way i could easily keep my armor since i won't be naked from shapeshifting. And thus, if i'm not going with a shapeshifter why would i not go with dual welding melee weapons. More reach, more damage with full defense. Then again, if i'm going dual welding why not just get double pistols. Good range damage, 2 attacks an IP, no drain. Compliment them with spells like invisibility, double image....

I mean if i wanted to optimize the best way possible, should i create a technomancer?

Posted by: sn0mm1s Jul 14 2010, 11:20 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 14 2010, 04:02 PM) *
[size=1][/size]

As much as i hate to admit it, you are right. I really wanted to try something different but the numbers for my idea just don't add up in comparison with your concept. The problem i'm having now is with the whole concept. If regen doesn't help with self inflicted damage (over casting) then why bother being a shapeshifter when i can just get shapeshifting spell? For conceptual reasons? I can very easily make a NAN character with the same history/legend and make him a normal mystic adept, non-shapeshifter. That way i could easily keep my armor since i won't be naked from shapeshifting. And thus, if i'm not going with a shapeshifter why would i not go with dual welding melee weapons. More reach, more damage with full defense. Then again, if i'm going dual welding why not just get double pistols. Good range damage, 2 attacks an IP, no drain. Compliment them with spells like invisibility, double image....

I mean if i wanted to optimize the best way possible, should i create a technomancer?


Heh, I have learned firsthand that technomancers + drones + grenades = rough game.

I think your concept is fine. Regeneration may not help with drain - but it will help with any other damage you get being in melee range. This is especially true if you are having to fight naked all the time due to shapeshifting. I haven't tried making a build yet with a shapeshifter as a race so I don't know how feasible the point allotment is.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 15 2010, 05:40 AM

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 15 2010, 02:20 AM) *
Heh, I have learned firsthand that technomancers + drones + grenades = rough game.

I think your concept is fine. Regeneration may not help with drain - but it will help with any other damage you get being in melee range. This is especially true if you are having to fight naked all the time due to shapeshifting. I haven't tried making a build yet with a shapeshifter as a race so I don't know how feasible the point allotment is.

I kinda like the Tiger shifter adept i cooked up during the last week, 3IP:s and she does 9P damage against half impact armor in her natural form and can also jump down from a third floor of a building without needing to even make a test to resist damage. And the regenation will probaply be very important for her survival, healing an avarage 4 points of damage at the end of every turn and with amazing rolls as much as 12 points is pretty handy.

Posted by: iategod Jul 15 2010, 01:36 PM

would the adept power "rapid healing" be added with regen? So at the end of every combat turn i would roll Magic+body+rapid healing?


Posted by: Draco18s Jul 15 2010, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 15 2010, 08:36 AM) *
would the adept power "rapid healing" be added with regen? So at the end of every combat turn i would roll Magic+body+rapid healing?


Yes. Your Rapid Healing adds to any dice pool used to remove boxes of damage from your character.
You get it for Heal spells, first aid, and rest, so I don't see why it wouldn't apply to Regeneration.

(Its ambiguous in the book, but another character using first aid on you gets the dice, you do not get the dice to heal them).

Posted by: iategod Jul 15 2010, 03:21 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 15 2010, 02:31 PM) *
Yes. Your Rapid Healing adds to any dice pool used to remove boxes of damage from your character.
You get it for Heal spells, first aid, and rest, so I don't see why it wouldn't apply to Regeneration.

(Its ambiguous in the book, but another character using first aid on you gets the dice, you do not get the dice to heal them).


Ok, that's a plus.... makes me harder to kill, no problem there. Still wondering what's people's opinions are on shadow (4e core pg204) vs invisibility (4e core pg201)? On top of that, would i suffer the penalty from shadow if i was in the target area? Does combat sense adept power stack with the spell?

Here's the history of another shapeshifter (bear) i'm currently playing... for those who are interested in story (it's long)
[ Spoiler ]


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