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Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2010, 03:14 AM

So, assuming you're hidden with an infiltration roll (4 successes), and attack someone with your silenced Ares Predator. The target survives.
Now, do you:
a) Let the attacker use his remaining simple action to re-stealth (another infiltration roll), and the target gets to roll perception on their IP, with the -4 due to silencer, or
b) the attacker can spend his remaining simple action to do whatever he wants, and the target gets to roll perception on their IP, with -4 due to silencer?

Also, are there any other modifiers/rules I should be aware of? Because, from my understanding, it would be way too easy to chip away someones health utilizing a silenced firearm, while remaining stealthed.

Posted by: Cang Jul 15 2010, 03:22 AM

I could be really very much wrong but i don't think stealth-ing is like hitting a button in WOW. The guy knows you are there, he was just shot at, and he is pissed. He is going to be looking at the direction he was shot from and doing a perception test with the appropriate mods. I don't think you can hide in plain sight like some other games out there. If you can get out of the area without being noticed i would let you re-roll your infiltration to hide again but it isn't a power it is just you trying not to be seen. Shooting at people doesn't go hand and hand with hiding unless you are a sniper shooting from 300 yards in a gilly suite.

Posted by: The Grue Master Jul 15 2010, 03:25 AM

I'd argue b). The victim is likely to either drop prone, seek cover and attempt to locate the source of the gunshot using the general area of the attack. This would probably grant him a positive perception bonus (versus before) of +3 from "Perceiver is actively looking/listening for it".

But it is true that a rather unsuspecting victim without a high perception pool, or particularly useful sensory enhancements (spatial recognizer, audio enhancement, etc) is very unlikely to locate the source of well hidden, suppressed gunfire before it has done them harm. They can still go prone/take cover, call for help, or flee in response, though. They would also, probably, be aware of the general location of the attack.

Edit: I agree with Cang, it's definitely not like an on/off toggle, you need rational for why you're hidden. Also, infiltration implies motion past a perceiver (metahuman or otherwise), disguise is what lets you just lurk in plain sight.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 03:36 AM

Nope, Disguise is for disguises. Infiltration is hiding and sneaking, which is not to say 'plain sight'.

Posted by: tagz Jul 15 2010, 03:38 AM

If you are in plain sight and there is someone capable of perceiving you, then you are "Immediately Noticeable" and by RAW no test is needed to observe you. You have to be hiding in SOME manner in order to receive the benefits of Infiltration.

Posted by: The Grue Master Jul 15 2010, 03:42 AM

Disguise does have the 'camouflage' specialization.

Also, from SR4A:
Disguise - When a character wants to take on a false appearance of some kind,
she uses the Disguise skill. This is true whether she wants to look like
someone else or blend into the background.

Infiltration - Infiltration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around
undetected by either other characters or security sensors.

I use that to mean that hiding while stationary is disguise. Minimizing the impact, perceptively, while moving is infiltration. I am open to reinterpretation, though.

Posted by: nemafow Jul 15 2010, 03:51 AM

I'd say the person would have to spend the rest of his action to hide again (unless they were a sniper 200+ metres away in a ghillie suit as suggest earlier, they wouldn't need to hide again IMHO), and they would actually have to be hiding in the first place for it to work.
Ie in Shadows (if the target doesnt have relevant technology to bypass that normally) on the second story building across the street, in a dark alleyway under a car ect.

None of this hide in open sight nonsense.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 03:53 AM

Oh, I see what you're saying. Disguise as in, designing a stationary camouflage, like a duck blind? Now I understand *why* you said 'in plain sight'.

I would argue that this use of Disguise applies only as far as making your camouflage, not, as it were, 'using' it. You could create a ghillie suit appropriate to an environment and get the camo bonus, but the Opposed Perception test of *hiding* is going to be Infiltration, because you're almost inevitably going to be moving. For me. *shrug*

The linked skill of Intuition is what hints at a creative process. Hmm. You could, for example, use Disguise to hide inanimate objects, and I can see how you would apply it to strictly immobile, preplanned hiding (of oneself).

Posted by: The Grue Master Jul 15 2010, 03:57 AM

Except the description of Disguise claims it is an opposed test vs. perceivers. I understand when you're trying to look like someone else how this test is used. But, if you're disguising yourself as the woods, how do you decide whether you're using your disguise roll or a new infiltration roll. If you use a new infiltration roll, what does the camo specialization even do?

It is also this disparity, that cause me to use infiltration while a player is moving, and disguise when they are stationary. I argue that the stationary player is making a test to blend into his surroundings, making him harder to notice (i.e. throwing leaves over yourself, lying near a log to break up your figure, etc).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 04:02 AM

If you're hiding in a preset spot, Disguise could make perfect sense, and the first roll would stand until you moved. It applies to visual perception in cases where the enemy will literally look at your disguised position.

Infiltration covers everything else (that is, everything except hiding in a preset spot). I don't think *just* standing still makes it Disguise, no.

Posted by: The Grue Master Jul 15 2010, 04:11 AM

Very true, I'd agree completely. Also, 'just standing still' is a pretty dubious method of hiding, except versus blind people.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 04:14 AM

Haha, yes.

Posted by: IceKatze Jul 15 2010, 04:17 AM

hi hi

A disguise roll could be used if you were hiding in a crowd, or maybe even a palming roll if you are taking the shot from inside the folds of a long coat, while in a crowd and attempting blend in.

Posted by: toturi Jul 15 2010, 04:18 AM

Other than similar situations to those highlighted in examples in the rulebooks, I would agree with you. Disguise is used for creating a false appearance and Infiltration is used to sneak around undetected.

Getting to the spot in the woods undetected would require infiltration. Setting up a hide would be disguise. If the situation at hand is someone hiding behind a wall, peering round the corner and in essense trying to sneak pass someone or something undetected, it doesn't matter if the character is momentarily stationary or freeze for several moments, he is using Infiltration. If the character is hiding in a dumpster and creating a false appearance, it doesn't matter that he scratches his ass, he is using Disguise.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 04:38 AM

Right.

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 15 2010, 04:41 AM

Kind of surprised no one's http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CaptainObvious: if you shot him once and he lived, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlel164s0xw?from=Main.WhyDontYaJustShootHim http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeAThirdOption http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToLive

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2010, 04:43 AM

The OP did. It was part of the question.

Posted by: Fauxknight Jul 15 2010, 04:57 PM

I say neither infiltration nor disguise, after palming the gun you clearly use the con skill while pointing at someone else and screaming, "Holy frag, that guy just shot you!"

Posted by: Mäx Jul 15 2010, 05:06 PM

That doesn't really work if you were infitrating a corp facility before taking the shot.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 15 2010, 05:16 PM

Your interpretation is wrong and the book disproves you readily enough.

SR4A, page 133.



As someone pointed out earlier, the use of Intuition with disguise lends it to a craft-oriented skill. Combining bits and pieces from the area around you to craft a blind to hide you from an enemy is a disguise check. Crouching while wearing camouflage is an infiltration check. Standing next to a wall while wearing a chameleon suit is an infiltration check. Assembling a costume to make you look like someone else is a disguise check. Laying in a wilderness environment in a ghillie suit is an infiltration check.

Interestingly, you could potentially use the disguise skill in crafting a ghillie suit to create one that inflicts a penalty larger than -4.

Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 15 2010, 05:17 PM

It does with a voice mod and a vocal sample from another guard...

Posted by: Fauxknight Jul 15 2010, 05:20 PM

Sure it does, just make sure to dress corp (or as another guard...either way I guess that means you did use disguise as well) and point at either one of your fellow runners or the other security guard near you, bonus dice if the target actually has a gun in hand.

I mean who's the guard gonna believe at that point, you the cute dryad social adept carrying a teddy bear, or McScruffy the troll?

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 15 2010, 05:26 PM

As for the original question of hiding.

If you shoot someone with a suppressed weapon and they don't die I generally would follow the following process.

1. Target shot must make a perception check, opposed by your infiltration check, to find you. The act of shooting does not innately break stealth or hiding, in my opinion.
2. If the target beats the check, you're no longer hidden to him (and his allies) until you can break line of sight.
3. If you break line of sight, you can make another infiltration check to continue moving around unseen.

Posted by: Fauxknight Jul 15 2010, 05:51 PM

This, being hidden and becoming unhidden on attack is a DnD thing. The act of attacking alerts them to your presence, which means they will be looking for you, but it does not automatically give away your location.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 15 2010, 05:56 PM

Shadowrun also doesn't utilize directional sight or facing when it comes to individuals, so the direction a gunshot comes from doesn't matter. At best it is the catalyst for the +3 bonus for active searching which could be construed as "active searching means you limit your search to an area you know the target is located".

Posted by: Mäx Jul 15 2010, 06:53 PM

If your an dryad social adept, why on earth where you infiltrating and shot the guy in the first place.

Posted by: Falanin Jul 15 2010, 09:17 PM

I agree with StealthSigma. The shot doesn't cause the attackers infiltration to be automatically ended.

Per OP, the attacker still has 1 simple action left. He can use his free action to move (or if he's used his free action, his remaining simple). However, the attacker needs a complex action to use infiltrate, per SR4a p.148, so he'll have to wait until his next pass for that.

Assuming a sucessful infiltrate roll before the shot (which OP does), the attacker isn't "immediately obvious". Therefore, on his turn, the defender can take a new perception test to attempt to find the attacker. This may or may not get an extra bonus, depending on whether or not the defender chooses to spend a simple action on observe in detail.

Anyone else gets a standard threshold 1 test to hear the shot, at -4 dice because of the silencer, per SR4a p. 322, or a threshold 2 test, per SR4a p. 136.

Posted by: The Grue Master Jul 15 2010, 09:47 PM

Silenced shots are a threshold of 2 on the Preception Test Tables on p.136 SR4A, which always struck me as odd, given they also get -4-7 depending on the gun/ammunition used.

Posted by: Caadium Jul 16 2010, 12:39 AM

I would say that the whole "is the target unhidden after an attack" all depends on the situation. Here are a couple of examples:

Here is a situation where I do see the person becoming unhidden.

Sammie the Samurai sneaks through the building, quietly opens the door, sees his target, takes aim, then shoots. Unfortunately for Sammie, he didn't kill the target and he's now standing in the doorway easily spotted if/when the target looks back. Of course, if Sammie gets an action before the target, he may do something to remain hidden.

Conversely, here is a variation on the above example where the target can cry then die because his attacker might be hard to find.

Sammie didn't just use infiltration to be quiet as he got into the room; Sammy also has Dermal Sheathing with Ruthies & is buck-ass naked. Furthermore, his gun is a cyber gun of some sort, and is also covered by the Ruthies. Because of this, when the target turns to see what fragger shot him, there is a chance he assumes the target fled down the hall since he sees an open doorway (a la predator armor). The target must try to pierce the infiltration at this point in order to notice our friend Sammie.

When you have 1 skill, like infiltration, that covers a variety of things (being quiet, being unseen, etc), then I would rule that the results of your action (and whether or not you are seen) are going to be affected by the specific use of the skill at that moment.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 16 2010, 12:43 AM

What if Sammie the Samurai has a long gun and is a few blocks away? Does he have to re-stealth then?

Posted by: Caadium Jul 16 2010, 12:44 AM

Then the target gets to be dumb enough to poke his head up to look for the sniper. He may even see the sniper in time to see the muzzle flash. But, if he wants to look he gets a perception check to break it.

If Sammie is standing upright on the roof a few blocks away plainly visible, then no roll is needed; but a head might still splode!

Posted by: Fauxknight Jul 16 2010, 01:20 AM

At least up to -9 by my count, silencer modification is -6 (instead of silencer accessory), electronic firing -1, and subsonic ammo -2. That would leave a lot of people without even getting a roll.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 16 2010, 01:33 AM

Which, after all that silencing, they shouldn't get.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 16 2010, 03:45 AM

Indeed... Heavy Silencing is the only way to Shoot...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 16 2010, 03:47 AM

Not to mention the penalties for range (up to -2 or -3?) if it's a long-range shot.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2010, 06:20 AM

Thats pretty realistic, it just mean that no sound carried to their position so there's nothink to hear.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 06:37 AM

I think that your quote actually does nothing to disprove his interpretation.

The use of Intuition simply means that Intuition is the functional attribute when you are taking on a false appearance of some kind. If you are trying to sneak pass someone or a sensor undetected, that's an Infiltration check. Getting to the area where you want to set up your hide undetected, that's Infiltration. Once you get there though, creating a false appearance or blending into the background is a Disguise.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 16 2010, 12:36 PM

Thing is, you just said exactly what he said.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 12:53 PM

My stealthspert would have a dice pool of 2.

5 Intuition
4 Perception
1 from Synch
1 from our Tacnet

I don't have any hearing specific augments for him, but I am planning on getting the Rating III Reception Enhancers for him from Augmentation so he would have 5 dice without hearing specific augments.

--



The section "Using Disguise" clearly states craft when describing its usage. Further, a word which I had missed previous, the Disguise + Intuition rolled is used for opposed test to pierce the disguise. The combination of these words deems that disguise is used when you're trying to conceal something as something else, which falls right in line with the common definition of disguise.

Further, the linked attribute is a strong indicator of which skill applies. If your ability to remain unseen would be related to movement (or lack thereof), then Infiltration applies. To clarify what I mean by lack of movement means infiltration + agility applies means that by moving you ruin your ability to stay hidden. Consequently you need to have very good muscle control to move slowly enough not to draw attention. Ghillie suits, camouflage, and probably ruthenium coating all work as a matter of movement. Using any of the three methods has nothing to do with blending yourself into something else. You do not have to do anything for them to function aside from being in the appropriate environment and limiting your movement for a ghillie suit or camouflage suit. The latter two function because you minimize your movements and the outfit breaks up your outlines. The combination of these two facts causes observes to have difficulty spotting you because the natural eye relies on lines and movement in order to passively observe something.

I can understand a rational for wanting someone to use Disguise over Infiltration when they're lying on the ground and not wanting to be seen. It really kills snipers or other ambush style characters by moving them from a 1 attribute/2 skill (Agility/Weapon Skill/Infiltration) character to a 2 attribute/3 skill (Agility/Intuition/Weapon Skill/Infiltration/Disguise) character and avoids overstacking a single stat or skill which is something that is problematic in Shadowrun regarding Agility and Logic.

A slight digression.
I find it humorously retarded that the Hacker is the best archetype to take on most support roles (Demolitions, First Aid, Mechanical skill....) due to the fact that they stack Logic. A skillwire wire just lvl 1 skillsofts for the support skills can easily pump a Hacker into 10+ dice pools without much additional cost. This is both brilliant and retarded. The non-logic focused characters will have dice pools that are lower than a defaulting hacker, so someone who would reasonably be good at Demolitions ends up being worse than a nerd. On the other hand, this logic stacking of support skills makes it more idea for the non-hackers to ignore them and let the hacker take them in order to serve as a reason for the hacker to come on site for many runs. We have one character on our team that current has 8 agility (2nd best behind my 9 agility) and the best logic score of the team. In general, he's better across a wide range of skills than anyone else on the team because of how many skills are stacked into Agility and Logic. The GM has done some retconning with us because we're finding out that some of our character had taken skills to cover gaps (rather than taking them as a matter of character) when this agility/logic character frequently does the job better and cheaper.

The argument also applies to agility. My stealthspert with 9 agility is -almost- better with any weapon than anyone else on the team. There's a few exceptions, pistols (maybe), unarmed, blades, and clubs but in every single one of those groups he's #2 when you add skill + agility (ignoring specializations and other modifiers) or has no skill, like with clubs. My character has the third or fourth highest strength (of a team of 4), yet he is fully capable of killing an unaware target with a single KNIFE attack and can pretty much do it with two attacks assuming the target doesn't dodge either attack. I say this because my stealthsperts primarily attacks from the Automatics or Longarms skill. So aside from the fact that stacking agility makes you a combat monster in stuff you don't primarily attack with, you're also functionally incredible at Escape Artist, Infiltration, Palming, and Gymnastics while defaulting.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 16 2010, 12:57 PM

You can do it by either 'hiding in a crowd', or simply 'looking like you belong there'. Now after someone has come under fire from your general direction you're going to have an 'interesting' time convincing them that you are supposed to be there.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 12:58 PM

No, I did not. Notice I did not say that "crouching while wearing camouflage is an infiltration check" or "standing next to a wall while wearing a chameleon suit is an infiltration check" or "laying in a wilderness environment in a ghillie suit is an infiltration check".

All I said was basically what is written on p124 SR4A for the Disguise and Infiltration. Momentarily freezing in crouch while camouflaged or ducking behind some cover when someone or a sensor is looking is an infiltration check. Standing in a corner of an office while wearing a chameleon suit is a disguise check, getting into that office is an infiltration check. Laying at a hide in a wilderness environment in a ghillie suit is a disguise check, laying still for a moment while crawling undetected in ghillie suit is an infiltration check.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jul 16 2010, 01:11 PM

I'm disinclined to agree with you. The skill in SR4A says the skill is to take on a false appearance of some kind, not to remain unnoticed. Disguise is to MAKE the guli suit, or select the outfit you use to infiltrate the corp with, infiltration is the skill you use to do the actual infiltration, atleast if you wish to do so reasonably unnoticed.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 16 2010, 01:12 PM

Potato, potahto, toturi. The quoted examples are implied to be taking place during an overall Infiltration of an area: "Crouching while wearing camouflage is an infiltration check. Standing next to a wall while wearing a chameleon suit is an infiltration check." There's almost no circumstance where you're be rolling Disguise for "Standing in a corner of an office while wearing a chameleon suit"; 99/100, that's Infiltration.

Yep, Agility is (unsurprisingly) the best stat for every character ever. And Hackers barely even use Logic, unless they want Hardware or Software. Personally, my go-to character just combines them: Stealth, Hacking, Athletics, Sensors, EW, Overwatch, B&E, Rigger, etc. Sometimes our SR group is only 3 players, so it's more fun to have 10-12 in a lot of Pools than 22 in one.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 01:29 PM

Indeed it does. Indeed, you do use Disguise + Intuition when attempting to craft a false appearance - you are trying to conceal yourself as just another bush.

If your ability to move does not factor into your remaining undetected, then Disguise applies. If your ability to remain undetected would be related to appearing as you are not, then Disguise applies. Ghillie suits, camouflage and rutherium all work to cause you to appear as you are not. Using any of the three methods has everything to do with blending yourself into the background. It is precisely because you have to be in the appropriate environment for a ghillie suit or camouflage to function if you are trying to blend in that Disguise should be used. The outfit breaks up your outlines and makes you appear as something part of the background and that is Disguise.

I think that there is some overlap where the 2 skills are concerned, which is why ghillie suits, camouflage and rutherium reduces Perception dice pool instead of specifically increasing either Infiltration or Disguise dice.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 01:36 PM

My examples are for when you have already Infiltrated into an area and are finding some place to hole up and wait.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 01:56 PM

For disguise to apply, movement can NOT factor into whether or not the method would work. Read the text for ghillie suits.



A ghillie suit's penalty functions entirely based on movement or lack thereof. Thus the ghillie's suit's penalty is applied on a Perception vs Infiltration test. This section alone is enough proof that remaining immobile in a dark corner is an infiltration check, not disguise.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 02:07 PM

Per the text for ghillie suits, the ghillie suit's penalty is not entirely based on movement or lack thereof, there is still a penalty even when you move, it even says that the character blends into the surrounding terrain more efficiently. Furthermore as you have quoted, the penalty is to the Perception Test to spot the camouflaged character, of which Camouflage is an explicit specialisation of Disguise and not Infiltration. This section alone is insufficient proof that remaining immobile in a dark corner is an infiltration check, not disguise.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 02:46 PM

You know what. I'm going to directly challenge your assumption. Show me the highest infiltration check and disguise check you can achieve on a human. If you can get a disguise pool higher than your infiltration pool, then I'll start to lend credence to disguise being used when stationary. It does NOT make sense for your ability to remain unseen be better when you are moving compared to when you aren't moving.

Don't forget to include genetic optimization and exceptional attribute for a 8 (12) in the attributes.

Infiltration Base: 12 Agility + 7 Skill = 19 dice pool base.
Specialization = 21
Reflex Recorder = 22
Enhanced Articulation = 23

Disguise Base: 8 Intuition + 7 Skill = 15 dice pool base.
Specialization = 17
Reflex Recorder = 18
Qualia* = 19

*Qualia is only applicable if your game allows content from Augmentation.

We can't apply nanopaste or a latex face mask since they would be used in a disguise check that's unrelated to remaining hidden from sight. They are used to make you look like someone else when observed in plain sight. As I see it, unless there's something massive that I've missed for disguise and I've missed nothing for infiltration, I'm much better off at hiding by constantly moving, since every penalty that could apply to your opponent's perception is equal for disguise and infiltration. The -only- exception to that would be a ghillie suit could be -2 for infiltration and -4 for disguise which is still smaller than the 4 dice advantage you have in infiltration. Even if we knock off exceptional attribute and genetic optimization, you have a 3 dice advantage in Infiltration over Disguise. Even a troll, the lowest agility meta-type, has a 2 dice advantage in infiltration over disguise.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 03:04 PM

What assumption are you challenging?

Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 16 2010, 03:09 PM

That infiltration is used while stationary.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 03:16 PM

Why can't Infiltration be used while stationary? Infiltration is used when sneaking around undetected by other characters or security sensors. If that sneaking around involves being stationary at certain times, I do not see why it is not.

Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 16 2010, 03:17 PM

Got me. It's not me challenging the assumption, only clarifying the argument.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 03:17 PM

This one. It is not that infiltration is used when stationary, but that infiltration is not used by remaining stationary for long periods of time. The math makes that assumption silly.



Since the outfits apply a penalty to perception they apply regardless of whether infiltration or disguise is used. What I have done use shown what I feel is the best case scenario for your dice pool for each skill. It means that a sniper wearing a ghillie who has hidden himself is EASIER to see than a sniper that's wearing a ghillie suit and jumping around. To spot the hidden sniper you would need a perception pool of 21 to spot the sniper, while the one hopping around would require a perception pool of 23 to spot (+3 dice to each pool if you have to beat the opponent with the perception check). But damn, if they're both wearing chameleon suits? You need a perception pool of 21 to see the hidden sniper and 25 to spot the hopping sniper (once again, +3 dice to each pool if you need to beat the check).

Infiltration will ALWAYS be superior to disguise just for the simple fact that you can augment your agility past the natural cap. Ergo, if you use disguise while hiding yourself, then you're harming yourself by using an inferior dice pool.

Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 16 2010, 03:21 PM

Didn't Infiltration have a specialization for Hiding, or am I living in SR3 again?

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 03:22 PM

Urban, Wilderness, Vehicle, or by detection method.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 03:26 PM

All you have shown is that given equal skill at Disguise and Infiltration and with Agility at augmented maximum and Intuition at natural maximum (which by definition is always lower than augmented maximum) the sniper that is constantly using Infiltration is harder to detect.

Is the augmented maximum the absolute maximum that an Attribute can reach?

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 03:36 PM

Exactly. A sniper using infiltration is harder to detect than disguise. I then explained in a scenario how that disguise when hiding is silly. A sniper that is harder to detect while hopping about in the woods compared to a sniper that is actively hiding himself via a ghillie suit is the penultimate of stupid. When you have an end affect (not being seen) governed by two different skills, the player and character would be stupid to choose the inferior method. Since the bonuses for using agility outweigh the penalties gained by using disguise, a player with a strong infiltration skill with choose to move constantly to avoid being seen, even if it's just back and forth over a meter, when sanity dictates that remaining still should create a harder to detect character. The latter situation is only true when the character is specialized towards disguise and has a vastly strong intuition than agility attribute.

This is all brought about by the fact that you cannot directly augment Willpower, Intuition, or Body [Except for Suprathyroid Gland], while you can easily get +3 to Strength, Reaction, Agility, and Logic. I believe the maximum direct augmentation to each stat is Strength (5), Agility (5), Reaction (4), Body (1), Logic (3), Charisma (0), Willpower (0), and Intuition (0). I know some people apply Tailored Pheromones to charisma, but it says charisma test, not the attribute.

Natural maximum is the highest a character can reach via improving his attributes via karma. Augmented maximum is the absolutely highest the character can reach via augmentations, which is added after your natural stat.
For a human, dwarf, or orc, a natural agility of 8, with an augmented max of 12 and a natural intuition of 8 with an augmented max of 12. (4 dice agility advantage)
For an elf, a natural agility of 9, with an augmented max of 13 and a natural intuition of 8 with an augmented max of 12. (5 dice agility advantage)
For a troll, a natural agility of 7, with an augmented max of 10 and a natural intuition of 7 with an augmented max of 10. (3 dice agility advantage)

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2010, 03:44 PM

Except that the dude hopping around isn't infiltrating and as such is a whole lot easier to see.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 03:46 PM

That's GM fiat. I could say I'm hopping stealthily. I could say I'm moving back and forth slowly. The point still stands that it's HARDER to detect the moving character than the stationary character. Would it be better that you can have a sniper hidden with another sniper slowly moving back and forth over him and you'd be more likely to see the hidden sniper.

Or how about this level of stupidity. The sniper can be moving back and forth on top of a hidden sniper, and the moving sniper would be more likely to spot the hidden one than the hidden one spotting the moving one.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 03:47 PM

If this is true, then there is no reason why you are using the natural maximum for Intuition but augmented maximum for Agility. If there is no cap on how high an attribute can be increased, then it is silly to make comparisons.

You can directly increase a mental attribute.

Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 16 2010, 03:48 PM

In essence, you're saying that the long-range sniper team is easier to spot than a covert operator with an MP-5 sneaking into your building.

Have distance modifiers been brought into play here?

Posted by: The Grue Master Jul 16 2010, 03:52 PM

I really don't understand how min-maxing something on a human is your basis for interpretation of the rules. As for everyone else, p.133 SR4A clearly states that disguise, while used to craft disguises still results in an opposed test between the crafter and future perceivers. It does not just result in a negative modifier to future attempts by others to detect your infiltration. What you are wearing generates a modifier for their pool, how you wear it results in the threshold for their perception test. This is the same for infiltration and disguise.

It is my opinion that disguise is linked to intuition because it does not require the same degree of physical dexterity as infiltration but instead requires you to imagine what people will be looking for and to anticipate how to fool them. It also seems reasonable to me that remaining undetected while moving (infiltrating) is much easier than remaining undetected while motionless. Movement generates more noise but leaves open the option to avoid being observed directly but disguise requires you to be perceived directly and still fool them. This is the difference between sneaking around in the woods while avoiding the people trying to find you and merely lying still under some twigs and leaves and having them walk right past you.

Edit: A lot got posted while I was typing this.

I'd also argue that any sniper who isn't just a fool with a gun will be using both disguise and infiltration regularly. Shoot, move, conceal, shoot, move, conceal, etc.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 03:55 PM

Yes there is. There's no augmentations that improve intuition! I only just discovered two drugs that each give +1 Intuition (Psyche and Trance). Unfortunately, Trance induces paralysis so you wouldn't be able to get that benefit prior to making your disguise. However you can easily get +5 agility from augmentations. So at best you're still dealing with a three dice disadvantage when using disguise.

I will admit that I haven't looked at magical method to improve Intuition, but those would require you to be Awakened in order to make disguise on par with Infiltration and Infiltration would still remain prime among the mundane.

Posted by: toturi Jul 16 2010, 03:57 PM

There are no cybernetics or bioware that improve Intuition. Spells can still benefit mundanes.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2010, 03:58 PM

This is where you fail hard, so your saying that Agility linked skill can get more dice then Intuition linked skill when you use natural max of intuition and augmented max of agility.
To that there is only one think that i can say.
No shit Cherlock, really thats some amazing feat deduction.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 04:04 PM

The point to min-maxing is to figure out what advantage you have in infiltration over disguise. Because of how the system works, you would need to have a total of a three point advantage between intuition and disguise over agility and infiltration in order for disguise to be COMPARABLE in effective to infiltration instead of being WEAKER. Mechanically, infiltration and disguise operate identically. They set the threshold that the observer must meet/beat in order to detect you. With disguise, you make your check when you create the disguise and that operates the entire time. With infiltration one of two things happen depending on how the GM wants to do it, you either make an infiltration vs perception check each time someone can observe you or you make a single infiltration check that lasts for a certain period of time, quite like disguise.



It is not reasonable that a moving target is harder to spot than an immobile target. Visual sight and noticing objects is based on two factor, outlines and movement. You're FAR more likely to notice a moving object than an immobile one.



I agree, that's how things should happen, but due to the dice pool advantage you can get while using infiltration compared to disguise, there's no point to try hiding yourself somewhere else, just break line of sight in order to get a new infiltration check. Using disguise as a hide skill will cause players to behave in a way that is counter-intuitive to how things work.

Posted by: The Grue Master Jul 16 2010, 04:25 PM

Unfortunately, this isn't how the rules work. You often make tests that aren't as good as another skill you have, just because of the situation. And secondly, it's not just disguise/infiltration we're talking about, there is also shadowing and palming. But I doubt you'd argue that palming should be used instead of infiltration, just because you have nimble fingers.

Posted by: Cabral Jul 16 2010, 04:39 PM

I have to agree that the ability to remain motionless is better reflected by Agility than Intuition. I'm not sure about Disguise versus Infiltration, but I suspect that I'd vote Infiltration with the possibility of a modifier from a Disguise roll, if appropriate.

For those that say that this falls under the purview of Disguise, what do you think of a Disguise+Infiltration test?

Posted by: cndblank Jul 16 2010, 05:00 PM

Perhaps a better say to handle the Disguise/Infiltration question is to allow Disguise successes to be used to provide a bonus to your Infiltration roll when the opportunity arises to make good use of camouflage.

Say half your Disguise successes rounded up added as a bonus to your Infiltration roll.

A good disguise/camouflage aids in staying hidden, be it is setting up a blind, picking the right camouflage pattern, or blending in some native vegetation to a Gilli suit.

Certainly limit the total bonus based on how much time and resources are available to set up the camouflage.

But even something as simple as scoping out the target's route to pick out the perfect ambush spot before hand should provide some bonus.

Also even a massive +6 bonus to the Infiltration roll is only going to increase the target's perception threshold by 2 on average (not unreasonable for a well camouflaged blind).




Using half the Disguise roll successes to make the bonus more based on PC rather than just a GM granted bonus (but limit the total bonus to a reasonable level based on the PC making the best of what is available).

That will allow a very creative ambusher to be just as hidden as a very agile one with a little before hand prep.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 05:14 PM

The only reason I fail at all with using the max augmented cap (Suprathyroid + Muscle Toner = +5 Agility) for Agility while only using the natural cap for Intuition is because I forgot Psyche can temporary increase your Intuition, putting you at 12 Agility vs 9 Intuition. I also have very little understanding of how magic works in Shadowrun, so I don't know whether or not it is possible to get to the augmented cap in Intuition but but as far as I can tell from a brief reading of the adept powers section, I didn't find any way to improve mental attributes through adept powers and I didn't find any spells in a brief reading that improve Intuition.

Disguise is always going to be disadvantaged by the fact that you cannot augment its linked attribute as readily as you can Infiltration.

--



You underestimate players. You want them to do A, however they don't want to do A because it's inferior to do B. They will take actions to go with B rather than stick with option A. So you as a GM are now presented with a situation where you let them do B or you railroad them into doing A.

If moving back and forth over a distance of 25-50m is going to make it harder for the enemy to detect me compared to trying to hide myself in a spot, you better believe I'm going to move back and forth over that 25-50m distance.

I don't think the problem exists between Infiltration and Shadowing. Shadowing is very direct in its usage, which is for when you're following someone. I'm not sure why you would even bring up Palming vs Infiltration given that with Palming since it says it is used to conceal small objects or lift them from another person.

Posted by: Whiskey Jul 16 2010, 05:39 PM

I think this might be one situation where the GM should step in and do what's best for his group, irregardless of what RAW calls for.

For me... I think I would call it by separating what the targets are looking for. To look for HIM, that's a perception against the disguise. But looking for a muzzle flash and to figure out where the shot came from, that's a contested perception vs infiltration, rolled at the time that the player fires. Of course if the target isn't looking then he's in trouble (surprise round)... Assuming he lives and the sniper holds his ground (and doesn't fire or break cover), target's back to trying to beat that threshold. He might get a general idea of what direction it came from (1+ hits but less then threshold if I was feeling mean...) but until he knows for sure where the sniper is, he's shooting in the dark. And breaking cover to go look for said sniper might be in the sniper's best interest...

E.g.
Player goes stealth and sneaks into the area set up, he's there well ahead of said target (disguise roll to make his blind, 3 hits).
Corper rolls into the camp site and unloads, his guards look around for trouble (and don't get better then threshold on their perception checks).
Corp comes out of his camper with fishing rod in hand. Player fires... -pop-
The guards make perception vs his infiltration (and threshold 3) to look for the muzzle flash. Failed. Even if they had succeeded, they needed threshold to locate him. Anything short, they get a general idea of where.. but not exactly.
Player opts to stay hidden, not fire and just observe. He's depending on his blind to protect him.
The guards they fan out and search (and reduce their distance penalties).
Player slinks out (contested perception vs infiltration).

I know it may not be RAW, but doing it that way allows the player the benefit of cover and add a little to the drama... Now... player has to understand that it can be used against him too. And a pair of snipers that have all angles covered can be a total party kill if players suddenly get a case of the stupids.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2010, 06:06 PM

Okey i think i have to do you a maxed discuise dicepool and lets see if you can top that.
Character is an adept with Metagenetic Improvment(Intuition),Genetic optimization(Intuition) and Aptitude(Disguise):
Intuition 12(whether thats from Increase intuition spell cast by a friendly mage or from a combination of geneware and drugs)
Disguise 10(improved skill power)
Spec 2
Rating 3 limbic nanites
so thats 12+10+2+3= 27 dice

Posted by: Whiskey Jul 16 2010, 06:08 PM

I would lean more towards geneware and drugs.. because if a friendly mage casts it on you then your tracable in the astral. NOT good... at that point it doesn't matter what your stealth score is. Mage switches sight, sees you.. your done.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2010, 06:22 PM

Improved masking fixes that, i think.

Posted by: Whiskey Jul 16 2010, 06:29 PM

It might... Still wouldn't risk it myself as even then there's ways.

At least with bioware and gene tech, you can hide behind a bush and the bush as it's alive will block LOS in the astral. The bioware and genetech show up as dark spots in your aura so you can actually use that to your advantage there.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jul 16 2010, 06:36 PM

Which is a good thing to point out. By dumping all that magic on you, you become easier to spot on the astral plane and it requires another conscious individual in order to maintain that level of hiding. So you've made yourself very difficult to see normally, but you've increased your astral signature. On the other hand, since you can achieve that high level of Infiltration by yourself and it requires no magic to achieve it, you've made yourself very difficult to spot while avoiding increasing your astral signature.

What Max has done is shown me a 3 dice advantage with Disguise, but you're requiring 2 sustained spells to do it, and you increase your astral signature. So unless you can ensure there are no mages around, Infiltration still comes out ahead because of the reduced risk to be spotted on the astral.

What it boils down to is that Disguise and Infiltration has some overlap that I don't see between any other set of skills. A GM needs to decide and remain consistent where each skill applies, but be warned that if you say Disguise is used to hide somewhere, you WILL see your players decide to move around using Stealth, especially if they're a combat-prone character as they will already be increasing agility for that. They will avoid hiding because it requires two skills for stealth (infiltration + disguise) and two attributes (agility + intuition) and many players will avoid splitting their development that much if they can avoid it.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2010, 07:32 PM

There's only one spell and technically you can drop that too after you have made the disguise test.
And to be fair i think i can get at least 30 dice to infiltratin test probaply 35, i just wanted to see if you can top that.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 16 2010, 07:33 PM

This really isn't that complicated. Disguise is used for hiding only in the specific situation of long-term, prepared, motionless concealment; and even then, the GM would probably allow Infiltration. All other cases are Infiltration.

Who loses, here? There's no 'I'm wiggling, use Infiltration' argument involved, and those who *want* to use Disguise, can.