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Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Jul 18 2010, 06:32 AM

As written, stun batons (and their derivatives) and Stick n' Shock weapons do absurd things to anybody hit. A taser or stun baton has become standard on all characters that I run, and generally is more effective at taking an opponent out - especially during surprise rounds if mounted on an arm slide - than any nearly gun in the game would be. Close combats have turned into 'do you have shock gloves / a stun baton?' rather than a slugfest of gore and destruction.

Body + half Impact vs damage is not too bad. Even the Body + Willpower + half impact (3) test or fall down on the ground and drool test is not that bad. Really, it is the

that really gets me. That is just brutal. Mind you, you take the fall down and drool test with negative dice from the stunning hit you just took (pun!)...

I am not sure if I am going overboard, but I don't think that everybody in the 'Sprawl runs around with nonconductive armor.

I have been pondering house ruling it that staging up damage from an electrical weapon takes 2 hits to increase the DV and may not be used with the trading dice for DV rule. You can't make the shock any larger by hiting a vital area. You can shock someone in a vital nerve plexus that is more... shocking... sure. But I think that the +1 DV per 2 hits allows for plenty of staging.

Posted by: Belvidere Jul 18 2010, 06:41 AM

And don't forget, if it's metal armor they don't get anything for armor. Though almost all armor is non-metallic in shadowrun. Aside from the chainmail shirt in arsenal. Haha

If you've got the issue of your players being abusive with it, just start using it against them. No better way to teach someone not to do something, than by hurting them with it.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Jul 18 2010, 06:59 AM

I think making nonlethal damage in some cases better than lethal damage is an intentional move on the part of the 4e creators.

The downside to knocking someone out is they may come after you later. If you knock out a whole gang and then leave. The gang will be awake tomorrow and they will be pissed. Nonlethal is not as illegal.

The downside to killing someone is that more people might come after you than if you had left someone alive. If you left someone alive they might have more of an idea about who to come after.

I don't know if nonlethal shock damage is too good but there are better weapon in the game than stun batons. It is up to you if you want stun batons and such to be in the same league with more deadly things.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Jul 18 2010, 07:03 AM

A bit of a fallacy in that if my response is to abuse it back, it is still too good...

That and my whole issue with this is that I don't want combat to turn into games of Tag! with electrical shock weapons.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 18 2010, 07:17 AM

If you want to you can just slit their throats afterwards, or change magazines and do a coup de grace if you want to waste money on the bullet.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 18 2010, 07:29 AM

I'm pretty sure you dont, damage resistance test aren't exactly action tests.
And -2 dice to do stuff isn't exactly a massive penalty.
ANd there are still more effective ways to damage people in melee then shock weapons.

Posted by: Mesh Jul 18 2010, 01:41 PM

So everyone runs around with electricity based weaponry, but you don't think anyone has non-conductive armor? Why aren't people wearing armor that protects against such a common threat? I would expect police forces to have it at a rating of at least three to prevent being shocked from the non-lethal weapons they carry and employ.

There are frequently threads about how overpowered and unbalanced shock weapons are. There is a cheap and readily available defense against them. GMs, scale your opponents. If your players shoot guards with regular ammo, you're going to put them up against guards that have ballistic armor, right? Because without it, they get mowed down without a chance. Use the same common sense when scaling challenges to your players and mix things up. Make them think twice:

1) Melee is in an inch (or foot+) of water. Shock the guy in front of you and share the buzz.
2) That ork gang lt. wears shock frills. Shock him, and you're liable to short out his and your electric weaponry.
3) Cheap security force doesn't have non-conductive threads? Well one guy got a nasty shock before, and never wants it to happen again so he put Rating 5 non-conductivity in his jacket.
4) Force coming specifically after your runners knows all the runners use shock weapons first? Put them not only in non-conductive threads, but also give them non-conductive ponchos or overcoats.
5) A runner shocks out a guard quickly and easily? Shorten his time to finish him. Then have the guard wake back up and cause problems. It's non-lethal after all.

Pro's don't shoot guards in the face for money. They find ways to accomplish their objectives while pissing off the least amount of people. Players should be encouraged to find non-lethal solutions rather than whipping out their sniper rifle and firing an APDS round through a wall and a guard's armored vest to splatter him before he even knew he was targeted. Don't hate on shockers too much.

Mesh

Posted by: Traul Jul 18 2010, 01:53 PM

Which actually supports the opposite to your point. Nonlethal damage should be its own reward. Currently, players are not using stun weapons because they are nonlethal. They are using them because they are flat out better, and it just so happens that they are also nonlethal.

Posted by: toturi Jul 18 2010, 01:56 PM

Indeed it is as you say. Everyone does run around with electricity based weaponry. Both corpsec and Lone Star (Rating 2 and 3 Grunts) have stun batons as part of their equipment loadouts. And they do not have the nonconductivity modification to their armors.

Posted by: Mesh Jul 18 2010, 03:37 PM

I think you missed the contrasting comparison. What's the combined AP from your typical sniper rifle using APDS ammo?

Mesh

Posted by: Dumori Jul 18 2010, 03:43 PM

-7 to -9 with at DV of 8-9

Posted by: Runner Smurf Jul 18 2010, 04:07 PM

Taser weapons are pretty darn scary in SR. Mind you, they are that scary in real life too. Taser weapons are designed to disrupt your ability to move, so they should have some nasty side effects. When it comes to stun batons and actual tasers, I don't have a problem with them being that nasty. Stick-n-shock is a little more dubious to my mind, but I don't want to dredge up that old argument again. In real-life, the US military has been very hesitant about non-lethal technology because it is generally less effective than lethal weapons at stopping opponents, and also because non-lethal very often isn't. Heck, here in the US, police forces are getting in trouble because of how often tasers end up killing people.

In addition to the realism issue, there is the game balance question, and how you deal with it. I agree it can be a real problem. I like it when my team goes non-lethal, but I don't think non-lethal should be that much more combat-effective than regular weapons. A couple of options I've considered/used:
- Everybody has non-conductive enhancements to their armor. This actually makes a lot of sense to me - with SnS and tasers being around, I'd think anybody making armor would design it to protect against it. A couple of ways to reflect that: tweak the rules so that it's resisted with full impact (or ballistic) armor to reflect that it's just standard, or just have most every armor you can buy have a couple of points of non-conductive armor.
- Nerf stick-n-shock. Tasers are effective, but their range sucks, which is the primary balance on them. Stick-n-shock utterly shucks that balance. Drop the effective range (to reflect a lighter bullet), eliminate the -2 penalty or the fall-down option (to reflect the lower available electrical power), don't let it be fired from non-shotguns, don't let it stage at all. Heck, feel free to eliminate it as a silly idea that the game designers obviously didn't think through. (Seriously, why would you have tasers at all with Stick-n-Shock on the market?)
- Make non-lethal occasionally lethal. Tasers and stun batons seriously screw with the nervous system (by design). As a house rule, if somebody glitches their damage resistance test against a taser/stun baton, they flatline. Yes, it does make them more effective, but greatly increases the out-of-combat consequences, and should make the runners think twice about just unloading on people, and justifying it to themselves by saying "hey, it wasn't lethal".

My 2 cents.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 18 2010, 04:14 PM

Okay...why?

At some point, as a GM, I'm going to have to write for this world. There isn't enough published material for me to avoid writing some things. If I am writing, the first rule is it must be fun for everybody, including myself. I prefer logical causality in my world; if you are raiding a Matrix node working on a new generation of Black ICE, then the security had better include some cutting edge ICE. If the opposition always uses spike strips, go-gangs will either buy run-flats or be made laughingstocks.

...and as soon as the bad guys start using Electric ammo, the armor is going to get upgraded. Security knows there are electric weapons in play; they're carrying them. I should hope it doesn't take a friendly fire incident or a downed officer's stolen weapon to make it clear to them, but at some point they will realize that they need to be ready for electric damage.

Furthermore, of all the armor upgrades, Electric is by far the most valuable. Chemweapons are more rare, and generally deployed via a dart; most of the other damage types are mage gimmicks. Electric damage is something that not only can a mundane use against you, but tasers are *legal*. They should be the most common self-defense weapon among the general population, and any time Security busts down a door they have to consider that Grandma is going to try and give them half a million volts to the beanbag.

I think in the future, I am going to make it clear to my players that there are degrees of response, and somewhere between asking politely and the helicopter minigun is a wide band of electic-armed "take them alive" security policies. This might not make sense for Shadowrunners, but as has been pointed out in numerous sourcebooks, Corporations would just as soon take you alive for information. They can always kill you later, or send you to a lab to... You know, let's just leave it at "don't get taken alive".

At any rate, the bulk of police and security should be using electric ammo, and that means they should have the insulated armor upgrade. I can't come up with a good reason not to.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Jul 18 2010, 04:20 PM

Having everybody geared out with nonconductive armor is the same kind of absurdity that form fitting body armor is:

If it is so good / so necessary that everyone has it or needs to have it, there is something wrong.

Stick n' Shock is busted-sauce. There really is no good way around it. I think my game will not have stick-n-shock.

Any opinions about changing the way that stun batons etc. stage damage?

Posted by: DrZaius Jul 18 2010, 04:24 PM

A quick and dirty solution would be messing with the number of charges a stun baton can hold before it goes dead; additionally, making it ineffective for use as a melee weapon after it's dead would be another option to discourage players from using them exclusively.

-DrZaius

Posted by: Belvidere Jul 18 2010, 04:26 PM

Instead of having it use a number of charges and then die out the nothing, another way to go at it may be a draining battery effect. Swings 1-5 are fulll DV, Then 6-10 are -2DV, THen 11-15 are -4DV, then it's just a stick.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 18 2010, 04:28 PM

Damm there are like half a dozen of these threads right now, all whit people claiming shock weapons are super duper good and million times better then anythink else.
But no one ever post any actuall facts showing that is the case.
Yes they are good but there are better options that do more damage for both melee and ranged combat.

Posted by: DrZaius Jul 18 2010, 04:31 PM

The reason they are better is because you can sneak them in. Why should my light pistol be more effective at taking down a target than a LMG? The main issue I run into as a runner is getting my 'ware into places; of course I want to go into every meet with an Assault Rifle and a Katana, but that obviously isn't going to work out of the D or C zones. Electricity damage lets me take a very effective weapon into almost _everywhere_.

-DrZaius

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 18 2010, 04:34 PM

...thought I made a pretty good case for nonconductive armor, but...

The main dealbreaker for most people is the Dazed/Incapacitated secondary effects. You could always just take them out, and make SnS just 6E with the armor penetration, still pretty sweet. You could also make the Dazed effect resistible.

Something somebody said earlier has me thinking - the reason that the military today doesn't use tasers is because they're close-range weapons, especially compared to firearms. You could explain that because of the poor flight characteristics of SnS, the range is doubled before figuring penalties, effectively halving the max range of the weapon. This makes SnS-loaded pistols only slightly better reach then standard Tasers, while long-arms firing SnS rounds are still pretty effective. It's a simple nerf, it has a good explanation, and it will dramatically reduce the combat effectiveness of SnS in some (but not all) tactical situations.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 18 2010, 04:55 PM

Well, let's take a look at it.

IT'S ELECTRICITY!

How many people have been electrocuted in their lifetime, even by a minute amount? Anyone? *Raises Hand*

OK, "Stick and Shock" Ammo is starting to get out there, but the idea of using Stun Batons and Tasers are a great idea for Shadowrunners infiltrating a Corporate Compound, or dealing with Lone Star. Next to no noise (As long as you catch the body, and rifle if he has one.), and, most importantly, you didn't just KILL A COP. Major No-No for a lot of reasons.

That said, "The Right Tool for the Right Job". Stunning a Gang isn't going to get you much respect, and will get the gang after you. They're not exactly the most enlightened of people in realizing that you're being nice by not killing them. They'd see it as a sign of weakness. That's when you break out the standard ammo and have a nice day painting the walls in red.

As for the more lethal forms of ammo, well, there are times when you absolutely, positively need to kill every Motherfragger in the room! And that's when you slap in your EX-EX rounds into your AK-97 and Rock and Roll!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 18 2010, 05:27 PM

But where is the problem with that? I mean really...

The average Joe Citizen is doing the same thing most likely. Guns are restricted, Tazers are not... The most common form of protection is thus going to be the Tazer... and just because it is legal does not mean that you can just whip it out whenever you feel like it... There will be repercussions for their use. They will likely be less severe than an otherwise armed response, but a runner whipping out a Tazer to zap someone BETTER be in a situation that his life may be in danger (and really, against the average Joe Citizen, that will be almost never), or the LEO's may want to have a little chat with him...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 18 2010, 08:46 PM

I'm not sure why people keep acting like S&S isn't lethal. A helpless enemy will be a dead enemy.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 18 2010, 08:52 PM

And then left in compromising poses.

Posted by: Inpu Jul 18 2010, 08:59 PM

Heh, yeah I imagine counting coup became a lot more popular once the NAN became a power.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Jul 18 2010, 10:06 PM

I am more likely to effectively 'kill' a target by hitting them with my taser than with my Ares Predator loaded with standard rounds.

They get less armor, I can still aim to increase the DV and even if I don't knock them out, they may get auto incapped. On top of this, they will have a disabled effect that is the same as 6 boxes of damage on top of the damage they already took.

I simply can't understand why anybody that can read the rules can't see that they are absurdly good.

Posted by: Wasabi Jul 18 2010, 10:35 PM

When stun weapons "replacine their damage code" is interpreted as flat damage that cannot be staged up then stun weapons become good but able to be improved on.

Posted by: Karoline Jul 18 2010, 11:13 PM

No one has posted the facts because they are easy to see in the book. SnS damage placed in a pistol gives it +2 damage, increases its AP by a variable but generally large amount, and gives a handy secondary effect. Oh, nearly forgot, you're also dealing with impact armor instead of ballistic, which is nearly always a couple of points lower. All this for a fairly minimal added expense, no extra illegality for the gun (And perhaps even a better argument with a cop about why you have one), and the ammo isn't hard to find. Compare with the harder to find and more expensive EX-EX ammo, which only increases damage and AP by 1. Similarly APDS ammo which is more expensive still, and far harder to find provides no bonus damage, and only 4 extra AP, which means it will do less damage than an SnS round.

Now, if you're talking about a sniper rifle or something, yeah, loading an SnS round into it isn't going to provide any real bonus. If you're looking at assault rifles, you're keeping the same damage code, and throwing on a very nice AP bonus as well as secondary effect. And of course it allows for a very "I can shoot whatever because it is non-lethal SnS rounds" attitude.

Personally I have no problem with tazers and stun batons, it is only the absurdity of SnS rounds in things like light pistols.

What likely should be done is change SnS from being a flat damage to being 1 or 2 damage less than would be normal for the weapon, and then keeping the half impact armor and stun effect. It only makes sense that a shotgun fires a more effective SnS round than a light pistol.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 18 2010, 11:16 PM

AFAIK, *everyone* has posted the facts, esp. for S&S.

If you were using a variable S&S size fix, I wouldn't drop the DV; 4's pretty low already. Straight 'convert to S(e), -Half Impact' would still give shotguns an edge.

Posted by: Karoline Jul 18 2010, 11:25 PM

But if you don't drop the damage they are generally going to be as good as or slightly better than APDS rounds, only way easier to get.

Posted by: Inpu Jul 18 2010, 11:31 PM

If the use of SnS ammo becomes prolific, wouldn't the opposition invest a little money in non-conductive armor? It'd probably work for a group pretty well in the first few runs, then be guarded against after a high success rate.

Posted by: Karoline Jul 18 2010, 11:47 PM

You're right, but that just shows that there is a problem. If everyone gets non-conductive armor because everyone has SnS rounds, then, well first off it shows that SnS rounds were too effective in the first place, and second off it leaves the question open of "Since everyone gets non-conductive, why isn't basic armor just made more effective against electricity?"

Besides, there isn't any real difference between everyone in the world having non-conductive armor and simply making electric attacks weaker. Personally it isn't electric attacks I have a problem with, it is SnS rounds, so that's why I suggest nerfing SnS rounds over making everyone walk around in rubber suits.

I mean tasers are utterly pointless in the SR universe because SnS rounds can do the same thing only far more effectively. SnS rounds were a cool idea, a means of providing the gun bunny with a non-deadly attack, but they just weren't thought through properly. They make tasers pointless, and they make all other forms of ammo in most weapons pointless. Oh, and they act as instant spirit slayers, which is just stupid. To take down a spirit you either need a high end sniper rifle, a mage... or a light pistol with SnS ammo.

Posted by: Inpu Jul 19 2010, 12:04 AM

I'm not sure it technically shows an issue. Escalation is pretty popular, and then when it looks like SnS rounds are not being used anymore 'because everyone has the armor against it anyways', then Megas stop spending extra money on the special armor and it starts all over again. So I think it goes in waves.

The Spirit bit is pretty much the only problem that you mentioned that I can actively see. That does seem to be a rather annoying issue. Is there a spell that could have a similar effect to non-conductive armor?

As an aside, I like the first line of your signature.

Posted by: Karoline Jul 19 2010, 12:13 AM

True, the problem is that you don't tend to see it go in waves. Games tend to not last long enough to see that sort of thing, and I think GMs are hesitant to start putting everyone in the game world in non-conductive armor just because of their PCs. Sure, by the rules everyone should use SnS ammo, tasers, stun batons, and shock gloves, but fluff doesn't seem to really support that. Kind of like runners have a 50% awakened population usually, despite fluff saying that only 0.1% of people are awakened, and fluff showing 'large' magical groups as having a dozen or so awakened members. Anyway, I think GMs are often hesitant to put up awakened enemies because fluff doesn't seem to support there being many of them around, and similarly GMs are hesitant to throw on non-conductive armor because fluff doesn't support everyone and their mother walking around with electric attacks.

It's really a similar problem to magic. There is a way to negate it, but it just doesn't make sense for most encounters to have that negation.

There is no similar spell that I know of, though the armor spell would increase impact armor a bit, but it isn't hardened and so doesn't really help in the case of the spirit.

And thanks, I found it while reading some huge thread that had a bunch of those motivational posters. Was on some anti-hero looking group I think.

Posted by: Inpu Jul 19 2010, 12:22 AM

Ah, well if we are talking one-shots or short games then yes, I fully agree with you on all counts. I would be loath to put people in specific armor unless it was a direct consequence of overuse of SnS.

I'll look through at some point and see if I can find a suitable counter for the spirits. Beyond that, one could thematically rule that the hardened armor is not bypassed in the case of spirits if it becomes a problem. The fluff is that the spirits are incredibly hard to dispose of.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 19 2010, 01:14 AM

Even with nonconductivity, S&S are still worth it, IIRC from last thread. It makes the 'drool' effect much rarer, though.

Posted by: Karoline Jul 19 2010, 01:38 AM

True, even with maxed out non-conductivity on an opponent you're better off using SnS ammo than regular ammo in a light pistol, and slightly better off than using APDS or EX-EX ammo too, though it might be a bit of a toss up if the person is using some really crappy armor with high grade non-conductivity for some reason, which says alot for SnS ammo.

Posted by: toturi Jul 19 2010, 02:06 AM

Many of the typical security forces (corp sec, Lone Star) that runners face do use tasers and stun batons as standard. It does not seem to cause a proliferation of non-conductive armor in any of the people that would go up against them on a regular basis - the thugs and gangs do not seem to be wearing non-conductive armor.

Other than for the PCs and certain special groups of NPCs (like Prime Runners), I do not think that it makes economical sense for anyone to buy SnS. APDS is less expensive than SnS. SnS is about 3 times as expensive as a single round of regular ammo.

Posted by: Jaid Jul 19 2010, 02:16 AM

i have to admit, it confuses me that everyone is so opposed to having electric damage be more effective against spirits. makes perfect sense to me. it's like the modern version of the torch (in the pitchfork and torch combo), though usually you would want something a bit more impressive in appearance if you were making a movie (like a power line or a lightning bolt).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 19 2010, 02:18 AM

True, it's a huge 400% more than regular ammo.

But, it's also a tiny 6¥ more per bullet. It's a nonexistent 1¥ more than APDS, 3¥ more than Explosive, 2¥ *less* than EX-Ex… it's really not that expensive. Even firing FA, you're talking a couple hundred nuyen per clip over *regular ammo*, and barely anything over the specialty ammo you'd be using in place of the S&S.

So, it really depends on who we're talking about. Gangers? Perhaps not. Joe Self-Defense? Almost certainly, especially because he's not intending to go through clips of this.

It's not a question per se of electric damage versus spirits. It's *taser* damage.

Posted by: Jaid Jul 19 2010, 02:33 AM

news flash: tasers use electricity. shadowrun tasers use sufficiently damaging electricity that it will probably kill the average person in 2 hits if it's the regular taser, 3 hits if using the weaker ones. heck, the one that still trails wires is pretty likely to knock you out from stun damage, nevermind the electric effect.

(and on a side note, taser is making stick-n-shock shotgun shells *today*. in 60 years, if they haven't found a way to make those taser rounds even smaller, i will be shocked... pun intended)

Posted by: Karoline Jul 19 2010, 02:43 AM

Hmm, was going from memory on the costs, was thinking ADPS was high cost, must have just been assuming that the high availability meant a high cost.

I do agree that there is certainly argument for electric attacks doing well against spirits, but once again, my problem isn't that electric attacks are good and effective and such, it is that SnS ammo is both powerful in its own right and an electric attack. If you're using a light pistol, there is literally no reason not to use SnS ammo unless you are utterly broke. Same for a heavy pistol, there really isn't much reason to not use SnS ammo. For other weapons, it is maybe a bit of a toss up, but unless you're strapped for cash or using a sniper rifle, SnS ammo is generally a good idea.

So, I don't have a huge problem with a stun baton or something similar being useful against a spirit, or even a tazer, but it is the SnS ammo that turns a light pistol into a Spirit Slayer ^tm.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 19 2010, 02:47 AM

You do realize that APDS rounds are cheaper than SnS rounds don't you? Sorry, Of course you do...
And as for legalities... Firearms are still regulated, whereas Tazers and Stun Batons are not...

Posted by: Karoline Jul 19 2010, 03:01 AM

Yeah, true, there is some legality issue between a pistol with SnS and a tazer/stun baton, but in general, that shouldn't be a huge issue for a runner. That's what fake IDs are for after all.

Edit: Also, 7 nuyen each to 8 nuyen each isn't exactly going to break the bank.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 19 2010, 03:10 AM

It won't, of course, but the argument still stands... there are better ammunition choices out there for cheaper costs... it just depends upon what you mean by "Better"...

Posted by: Karoline Jul 19 2010, 03:14 AM

Right, depends on the weapon in question and the opponent in question. Unless you're talking about a longarm or a very oddly armored opponent though, you'll generally be better off with the SnS ammo.

Posted by: toturi Jul 19 2010, 03:21 AM

But it is 4 times as costly as regular ammo. Which was why I was saying that unless the (N)PC was someone where cost considerations are not a primary concern, then SnS is a very good ammo. To some runners, it isn't a concern, yet to others, it may be too expensive to fire a SnS every time he gets into a shootout.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 19 2010, 03:28 AM

The flipside is that SnS ammo would most likely be construed as "Less Than Lethal Attempt" in a court of law. A particular concern for Non-AA/AAA Corporations that have to deal with Lone Star when they exchange rounds with thieves.

Well, ones with SINs, at least.

But for the average Joe and Jane on the street or apartment, it's very much a concern. It's hard enough keeping NutraSoy on the table and the Simsense Unit fed!

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Jul 19 2010, 03:48 AM

High voltages are used, but because most devices use a high frequency alternating current, the skin effect prevents a lethal amount of current from traveling into the body. The resulting 'shock' is caused by muscles twitching uncontrollably, appearing as muscle spasms.

Tasers primarily function by creating neuromuscular incapacitation, which means that it interrupts the ability of the brain to control the muscles in the body. This creates an immediate and unavoidable incapacitation that is not based on pain and cannot be overcome. Once the electricity stops flowing the subject immediately regains control of their body. Most subjects after being Tasered once will comply so as to avoid being Tasered a second time.

Some Taser models, particularly those used by police departments, also have a "Drive Stun" capability, where the Taser is held against the target without firing the projectiles, and is intended to cause pain without incapacitating the target. "Drive Stun" is "the process of using the EMD weapon [Taser] as a pain compliance technique. This is done by activating the EMD and placing it against an individual’s body. This can be done without an air cartridge in place or after an air cartridge has been deployed.

Taser International claims that Tasers are safe, but critics disagree, citing the number of deaths occurring after Taser use. Amnesty International has documented over 334 deaths that occurred after the use of Tasers between 2001 and 2008.

A study led by William Bozeman, of the Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center, of nearly 1,000 persons subjected to Taser use, concluded that 99.7% of the subjects had either minor injuries, such as scrapes and bruises, or none at all, while three persons suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission, and two other subjects died. Their autopsy reports indicated neither death was related to the use of a Taser.

Manufacturers' instructions and manuals shipped with the products state that a half-second shock duration will cause intense pain and muscle contractions, startling most people greatly. Two to three seconds will often cause the subject to become dazed and drop to the ground, and over three seconds will usually completely disorient and drop an attacker for at least several seconds. TASER International warns law enforcement agencies that “prolonged or continuous exposure(s) to the TASER device’s electrical charge” may lead to medical risks such as cumulative exhaustion and breathing impairment.

also check out the Electrified water cannon. I could see it being a riot control weapon of the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrified_water_cannon

Also check out Picana. A cattle prod made specifically for electrical torture of humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picana


Anyway I posted this because I thought some of you might like to learn a bit more about how tasers work and how electric weapons work. I think a bolt of lightning would be orders of magnitude larger voltage but it is instantaneous and stun guns deliver there electricity in a way that is more effective for their voltage (fast alternating current over time). Lightning is also alternating, as is wall current. You would charge a battery and run a computer off of DC with the aid of an AC to DC adapter built into the device.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 19 2010, 05:20 AM

Jaid, you completely missed the point. The fundamental point of contention is precisely *whether* taser weapons count as 'electricity elemental' attacks. Too busy being snarky?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 19 2010, 06:04 AM

Non lethal has been superior in I think every edition. 4e just keeps the trend and maybe amps it up a bit. Narcojet is super fun for example, oh and while drain was generally a beast in 1e the sleep spell had a 1 staging for both damage and drain resistance. So it was one of the easiest spells to take no drain on and at the same time was probably the most effective combat spell in the game.

I'm not saying past editions mistakes make this editions mistakes any better. But it seems to me they have decided to make a conscious effort to make the non-lethal option the more attractive option in SR. I would have preferred the opposite so you can make the hard choice to go non-lethal or take the easy choice and go lethal, instead of the current system where the easy choice is non-lethal. Its not much of a moral stand if its just a better tactic.

Posted by: IKerensky Jul 19 2010, 07:01 AM

SnS are supposed to be non lethal... what I am enquiring is : how non lethal is a full narrow burst of SnS Ammo ?

The trick is that if I say that multiple hit from SnS are going to kill the target then I make them too usefull for killing.

Also something weird about SnS is that thoses ammos are supposed to be very-low velocities (or they dont really need the Stick part), I dont think that make them very adequate for standard automatic weapons.

Heck, SnS doesnt even make any sense in standard weapons... they should be restriced to needles guns or veterinarian rifle. How could a bullet be supposed to stick and shock on an unarmored people ? how are they then supposed to stick on ceramic plated military grade armor ? That require different kind of bullet altogether...

SnS is too much cumbersome for me, I will just write them off.

Posted by: Nixda Jul 19 2010, 12:36 PM

I fully agree SnS is way too good, and I also agree that non-lethality is its own reward.
Still, its not THAT difficult to house rule imho.

Personally I like how Gel rounds work, so I see no need for SnS to exist in that many gun classes. In my games SnS is shotgun only, BF/FA does not increase its damage (but it does increase the duration of the electrocution effect), and spirits generally laugh about stun damage.

SnS hasnt troubled our group ever since I implemented these rules, and it still keeps the usefulness of low ammo / very low range Tasers.
In melee range I do not mind the Stun batons etc. so much: its difficult enough for characters to get into melee without being shot at first, and the higher defense roll of attribute + skill vs. only attribute in ranged combat helps defenders quite a bit.

Also, in a world where Adepts with critical strike/elemental strike/killing hands and + damage from martial arts are running around it might be a bad idea anyway to try your luck in melee with a stun baton.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 19 2010, 01:34 PM

I touched an electric fence (meant for horses) at the young age of about 5.

Even as an adult, the full shock from it (we have one on our current property) is not pleasant; makes me jiggle a bit (its 6000 volts, which If I understand correctly, is significantly less than a tazer or shock round, I would have to check on the amperage).

And that is about as passing (short time span) as an electric shock can get: lasts as long as it takes a relay to go "click."

Posted by: Karoline Jul 19 2010, 01:49 PM

Voltage is irrelevant, it is the amps that determine how much something hurts.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 19 2010, 03:00 PM

I forgot to check the box on my way to work. I just know that electric fences are measured in volts (6000+ for horses and cattle down to like 100 for chickens). Or at least, that's the larger number on the boxes...

Posted by: Karoline Jul 19 2010, 03:07 PM

That's because most people think it is the volts that hurt and because that number is bigger. 0.001 amps doesn't look very impressive in big red numbers on the side of an electric fence, but 10,000 volts? That'll scare people off.

Ever played with a vandergraph generator? Those things with big metal spheres on the top? Those can generate millions of volts, but you touch them and it just makes your hair stand on end.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 19 2010, 03:21 PM

Electric fences are also designed to cause you to let go.

Tasers on the other hand work by locking up your muscles.

Different principles. It would be kinda bad for an electric fence to cause your muscles to lock up when you grabbed it.



-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 19 2010, 03:26 PM

KarmaInferno, references? I'm just interested. I've heard that Tazer claims special bio-interfering waveforms or whatever, but never heard much about fences. They seem like a pretty brute-force application.

Posted by: Doc Chase Jul 19 2010, 03:27 PM

It's alternating versus direct current. Direct current fences don't let you let go very easily.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 19 2010, 04:11 PM

Well, yes, I know the difference. "Volts Jolt, Amps Vamp." And I'm not talking about "scaring people off" as the "people" that need to be "scared off" are horses.

Random googling brought up a couple of chargers rated between 1.5 joules and 2 joules of output. No info on amps.

However, I am unable to figure out how this compares to amperage (and I do not believe that there is a relationship).



They do that by being "off" 95% of the time. A 0.25 second electric pulse followed by 1 second of nothing. You grab a hot wire and you're muscles will jerk, if the current was continuous I'm certain it'd be difficult to let go.

Posted by: darthmord Jul 19 2010, 04:12 PM

Having EE as a real life background, I can answer a few questions for folks.

The parts...

Voltage: measure of electromotive force (how hard it's pushing)
Amperage: measure of current flow (bigger is badder)
Power: measured in Watts. It is a summary of just how much power is flowing.
DC: direct current. It has no waveform. Think of the power coming from a battery.
AC: alternating current. It does have a waveform (typically sinusoidal, can be different).

Those terms aside, the hallmarks of DC is that once you get hit with it, it causes your muscles to freeze. In a typical action like bending your arm, you have some muscles contracting while others are relaxing (in a push/pull setup). DC will make all those muscles contract at the same time. That makes your arm lock.

DC is bad ju-ju when it comes to getting shocked, especially if it crosses your heart (like getting shocked from hand to hand). See above for why and keep in mind that your heart is a muscle.

Getting shocked by AC is bad in its own way. Ever hear the phrase "60 cycle shuffle"? It's a bad dance move performed by those getting shocked by 60 hz AC (typical household power outlet in the US). Just so happens to be a bad frequency for our bodies (our hearts don't like that frequency much). AC works just like DC... except it makes your muscles relax & contract at the frequency of the line power (60 cycle shuffle?). AC has a higher propensity to throw you than DC does in most cases but you can be thrown (across the room) by DC as well. Depending on what you are doing, you may end up hanging onto your equipment when you'd rather let go.

I can't speak for tasers but a classmate in HS Electronics (vocational school) shocked himself with 50k Volts DC at 1 microamp (0.1 milliamp). It froze his arm (to his elbow) and hand for about 10 minutes before he could start moving them again. He said it hurt like hell and that he couldn't feel his arm for the duration.

I have personally taken 440 Volts AC from elbow to wrist off a bridge rectifier in a floor TV power supply. Blew out the Bridge rectifier and the zap also threw my arm away from the tv console.

Generally if one is using electricity to incapacitate, you want to use a high enough voltage to cause conduction. Between 5k and 50k Volts is often enough (depends on desired target audience, heh). You only use enough amperage to cause the desired pain / stunning / numbness. Generally this will be a low number (less than one milliamp).

Against someone like me (100+ Meg Ohms of skin resistance aka 100,000,000+ Ohms of skin resistance), you'd want at least 10k Volts in order to generate conduction. At 10k Volts, all you'd get for current flow is 0.1 milliamps. Certainly enough to piss me off. 50k Volts would get you 0.5 milliamps which would be significantly more incapacitating. Zap it down the line with AC and you'll have me dancing & twitching.

The bad part is that a low amperage is quite capable of killing you. We had a chart on our wall that showed the effects of amps of current flow. According to the chart, 5 milliamps was enough to kill you. The bad part shown on the chart? Get to 1+ amps and you get to live while cooking (until you die).

For those that want to know, Power = Amps * Volts so... 1 Watt = 1 amp * 1 Volt.

Also, Ohm's law states that Current = Voltage / Resistance so... 1 amp = 1 volt / 1 Ohm.

In summary, electricity is serious business. It can fuck you up. It also makes for a hell of a modern convenience.

*edit for a few typos

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Jul 19 2010, 04:29 PM

Also, one of the most clear demonstrations that SnS ammo is beyond any shadow of a doubt better than any other kind is suppressive fire.

Take a SMG, AR or even the White Knight LMG and do a surpressive fire test with them. Trade out normal ammo for SnS. Trade out normal ammo for Ex Ex or even APDS.

Suppressive fire forces an Edge check to clear the area or take a single, unmodified hit from the weapon. Let me tell ya, I am way more interested in trying to resist down 4-6p with my 4 body and 8 armor than I am trying to resist 6(e) with 4 body and 2 or 3 armor... And even then, I will still probably be at a -2 (remember, that is six boxes of damage). And I am only worried about that -2 if I am not curled up on the floor, fetal.

In the instance of suppressive fire, you are looking for area denial or to engage huge numbers of targets. Run the math on spraying 30 rounds into a crowd of 10 or 15 gangers and see what happens.

I would wager that SnS is going to produce a helluva lot better results.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 19 2010, 06:32 PM

Much good stuff. Most of which I know, I just don't know where joules fit in.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jul 19 2010, 06:33 PM

Why don't we all have the absolute best of everything today?

There is a best ammo, there is a best gun, there is a best computer, a best car, a best house, a best friend forever.

Why don't I have all of those?

Stick n Shock is the msot effective ammo evah! No question, no discussion.

Why won't it be everywhere for everyone?

Why does the fact it is the best ammo for your shadowrunner mean everyone everywhere in the entire world will have it?

We are playing in a dark dystopian future of balkanized states and mega corporations run by free spirits called Buttercup and Dragons that snack on people and Immortal Elves who are too pretty to live aren't we?

Posted by: Traul Jul 19 2010, 06:34 PM

Yes: it would make the meat hard.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 19 2010, 06:47 PM

You realize the game has stats for the availability of all these rounds and SnS is easier to get (and sometimes cheaper) than the other rounds?

It's part of the reason why people are annoyed by them, if they were expensive and scarce that would be a balancing factor for their effectiveness.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 19 2010, 07:20 PM

Technically availability isn't how hard it is to get them. A completely legal, but $10,000 item takes longer to get than a Forbidden $10 item.
(Because the interval went up due to the price difference, even if the threshold is lower).

So if you want SnS to be "rarer" for PCs, raise the cost by double or more.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jul 19 2010, 08:12 PM

Time is money.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 19 2010, 08:14 PM

Yeah, and disabling enemies faster is more money.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jul 19 2010, 08:17 PM

Actually, this is the simulationist argument. If the written rules were meant to be a complete set of rules to render a simulated universe then you would be correct about this.

I don't believe the SR4A core rule books are adequate for any simulationist approach. There's no engine for applying specific data points to render a world other then ourselves, and since we are all different, we will get differing results.

Not enough data for a good model either.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 19 2010, 08:20 PM

*shrug*. I'm only arguing that they are almost universally better, not saying anything about 'the game world'. If anything, such an argument only increases the imbalance, because it means most enemies won't use S&S (relative to smart runners), most enemies won't have Nonconductive, etc.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jul 19 2010, 08:34 PM

I agree SnS is superior.

Why is there a problem with SnS being superior in effect?

If there are different types of ammunition, that are mechanically different, then one of those range of ammunition is going to be optimal.

Frankly SnS being better by itself isn't a big deal. However the fact that in practice for almost all uses of direct delivery of DV and effect it is superior to other choices mechanically is something of a problem. However, that isn't the only factor that goes into whether or not SnS is used. There are many other factors, but they aren;t as easy to measure as running a set of dice rolls in a spreadsheet and running statistical models. Nevertheless they do have an impact.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 19 2010, 08:40 PM

In any game, the existence of a generally (that is, in all or nearly all circumstances) superior option is a problem. It's game imbalance, as you say. S&S is both generally superior and *very* superior, which is a bad combination. For runners, this may not be the only factor, but it's absolutely the biggest one, and that's why it matters.

Posted by: Adrian Korvedzk Jul 19 2010, 10:19 PM

Sigged...

Posted by: Cabral Jul 20 2010, 03:33 AM

Thank the forum gods for sig size limits...

Posted by: Adrian Korvedzk Jul 20 2010, 04:36 AM

Wasn't going to sig the whole thing... Just the line that made me chuckle...

Posted by: AngelisStorm Jul 20 2010, 05:42 AM

Question: (yes, it is a "real world"-ish question)

Why does SnS (and other electrical weapons) halve Impact armor?

I have never been tazed. However, how does a thick coat effect the process? What about a leather jacket? (For that matter, a flak jacket or kevlar.)

There are three factors to SnS (I believe):
1. It ups the damage of smaller firearms (up to assault rifle levels)
2. It halves armor (which is generally already lower, though I generally ignore that, given the PPP system)
3. Secondary effects.

On the first issue: Why is a tazer bullet more effective than a "real" bullet?*

I've asked the second question above. "Because it's electricity" is the answer. Maybe electrical weapons shouldn't be treated the same as lightning bolts. (Maybe.)

Third, if a tazer didn't incapaciate folks, why use it (besides that it's non-lethal). I believe someone stated (on one of these threads) that most mooks have the stats to generally keep from passing out. Cinematically, it's a cool effect. Real world, neh. People (I don't believe) generally pass out from tasering. (Thank goodness this is a game.)

Regarding the -2 penalty: how badly are folks (ordinarly) disoriented after being tasered? Combat rounds are 3 seconds, so even if an individual takes 1/6th of a minute in real life to "shake off" being tasered, then the penalty might hold up.

*tosses in 2 *

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 20 2010, 12:55 PM

It's -Half, I assume, because of the abstract nature of the hit system. You only need to connect, not hit a vital location. *shrug* No, I'm not terribly convinced either.

Posted by: darthmord Jul 20 2010, 12:56 PM

There was an episode of Deadliest Warrior recently where it was SWAT vs GSG. They did a live demo of a taser being used on a guy. It hit the guy, you heard the click-click-click of the Taser and the guy's arms froze in a boxing sort of pose, he hunched over (forward) and had to be helped down. He could NOT move. All the sound he made was a grunting noise. It took about 15-30 secs after the taser was turned off before the guy started actively responding to the people around him. His arms relaxed after about 10 secs or so. I believe the guy who volunteered to be tased was a LAPD SWAT member.

Having been hit by electricity before, I really don't want to try the receiving end of a taser.

Posted by: darthmord Jul 20 2010, 01:02 PM

I think the rationale is that Impact armor protects against low velocity impacts like clubs, knives, swords, etc. If you have more Impact armor, you have additional padding, cushioning, etc. SnS, tasers, etc are all low velocity weapons.

As such, it'll be harder to hurt someone under it with low velocity weaponry. But since Tasers, SnS, shockgloves, etc only need conductive contact, the need for 'damage' per se is reduced. The 'damage' dealt is from the electrical nature of the weapon, not the weapon's ballistic characteristics.

Much in the same vein as casting shocking hand in D&D. You needed to make an attack roll against armor class 10 (+dex/agility bonuses) rather than against their full armor value due to just needing to touch the target regardless of their armor.