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Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 17 2010, 11:27 AM

I did not know how much damage ramming can do. I realized that slamming into someone wile under the effects of the critter movement power and immunity to normal weapons would mean dishing out a tun of damage and likely taking no damage. If this is combined with a ram plate (or possibly a big shield) then the ramming can be done at a lower speed for less damage against the person ramming.

A person ramming into a person in not strictly covered by rules. I guess you would call it normal unarmed combat, but even if trolls plowing through people does not count as a ramming, a small vehicle or drone should work just as well.

If a meta human would do it. Anything that adds to run speed ( Celerity, Satyr Legs, Raptor Cyberlegs, and Inline Skates each add one half movement. Skimmer Discs double movement. Celerity seems to stack with every thing. Skimmer Disks probably can't stack with Satyr Legs or Raptor Cyberlegs.) If you do the math super high body ends up being not that desirable at the start because of how it effects movement and the damage that needs to be resisted. Relying on Immunity to Normal Weapons means armor does not need to by higher than normal, if speed is 61–200 meters per turn and body is less than or equal to magic of the spirit with Immunity to Normal Weapons.

ramming damage table

Ramming

Ram Plate (Standard, Groundcraft and Watercraft Only)


Hardened Armor

Immunity

Movement

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Aug 17 2010, 01:49 PM

Most GMs will rule that celerity does not stack with Skimmerdisks, as it's basically a personal hovercraft.

Posted by: Machiavelli Aug 17 2010, 01:53 PM

Good points. I was always wondering why the modifiers for targets that are moving faster than the attacker didn´t come along to SR4. But stuff like that would give the movement power a little bit more bang for your bucks. It would be sufficent enough if it would help you leap longer, but jumping doesn´t seem to be linked to your speed.

Posted by: Simon Kerimov Aug 17 2010, 02:52 PM

Have you played Prototype? One of my favorite ways of getting around town was to sprint through the streets with a shield out. If it was a car, it would need good windshield wipers. As to your question, you can treat it like falling damage, using your meter per Combat Turn as the distance fallen. I don't think there is a rule that covers it exactly, but that's the closest mechanic I know of.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2010, 06:46 PM

Then celerity should not stack with retractable roller blades either, because it's more or less the same way to move in . .

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 17 2010, 06:48 PM

Hm. I've always thought of skimmerdisks as "you stand there and the disks take you places".

Whereas you actually push off surfaces with rollerblades.




-karma

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Aug 17 2010, 06:54 PM

Sort of? You still have to control the vector and thrust of the skimmerdisks, but the power comes from the disks themselves. I can see how celerity would stack with rollerblades since you have to push off with them yourself, but you would look like a bloody ridiculous gangly rollerblading monkey man.

Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 17 2010, 06:55 PM

Goes well with monkey paws and prehensile tail I suppose^^

Yay Surge =)

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 17 2010, 07:10 PM

iirc, skimmer disks adds to the base movement rate of the person "wearing" them, so imo they are basically rollerblades with near zero friction.

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Aug 17 2010, 07:17 PM

The problem is that the skimmerdisks would have to automatically generate thrust equal to the force of the pushing leg, if power actually "comes" from the person wearing them. This leads me to think, "Why can't somebody just crank up their skimmerdisks past normal (for their metatype) thrust?"

Skimmerdisks sure are wonky.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2010, 07:31 PM

Skimmerdiscs are basically like Marty McFly's Hoverboard.
Not like Biff Tannon's Killer-Board. Not self propelled.
But if you stand on them, other people can push you around.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 17 2010, 08:45 PM

maybe i am missing some elementary physics in all this, but how so? The disks are turned to carry the weight of the person a certain distance above ground. If then the person tries to push down against that he is more likely to push himself forward then push the disk down, as that will be the direction of least resistance. The disk is pushing upwards with a force equal to the persons weight after all, and if one try to push that down the air will compress further to create more resistance. It would behave pretty much in the same manner as if one attempted to walk on a couple of springs that was able to carry the persons weight without compressing.

tho sure, i guess one could always crank the engine up there and go for something like what the helicopters do. But i suspect that much of the design of the disks makes use of ground effect:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ground_effect_in_aircraft

once one move out of ground effect, the energy needed to stay aloft increases. This in turn decreases the endurance of the system. So for a compact system like the skimmer disks, i dont think relying on the disks engines for propulsion is a good bet if one plan on cover a useful distance.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2010, 09:08 PM

Best way to get around town:
One or two cyber-arms with grapple-hands and magnetic system,
two replacement feet with skimmer discs.
Do the McFly Flyboy!
And worry if someone pushes you above a lake or something like that ^^

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 17 2010, 11:41 PM

how about a magnetic grapple and some rollerblades with smartwheels (or skateboard with same)?

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 17 2010, 11:43 PM

I figured skimmer disks stacked with Celerity and nothing else, because they are not something worn they are a replacement for your legs. But I don't really care if it stacks because celerity, satyr Legs, and inline Skates get you up to 2.5 your normal movement rate with no essence cost. But it is actually not really necessary because the movement power gets you going very fast with out any surge. But I do like the idea of someone who can out run most cars (with movement power). Also having a high walk rate could come in handy.

One use of a high walk speed here.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 18 2010, 12:01 AM

The german Arsenal actually does have the motorized Skateboard with Smart Wheels, called power board . .
COWABUNGA!

Posted by: Kraegor Aug 18 2010, 11:19 PM

2 words:

Thrust Boosters.

Just strap these on your back, take off from 0 to 200 in 3 seconds and slam into something at 200 miles per hour wearing MilSpec armor.

One of you will be a pancake.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 18 2010, 11:54 PM

Well that is how a street sam would do it.

The whole immunity to normal weapons, ignore damage if it is less than magic times two physical is what makes this more survivable. But the sam will still take half the damage the other guy does and be able to resist some of it and have the rest be stun, wile the other guy is likely in bits even if they are not quite dead.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 19 2010, 04:16 PM

Now are you trying to get an actual person to follow the Ramming rules? The flow of this thread is confusing.

Posted by: Simon Kerimov Aug 19 2010, 05:13 PM

BASE MOVEMENT
Movement Table SR4 p138
Troll Movement: 15/35 m/turn

• Satyr Legs: Rate*1.5 (round down)
• Celerity: Rate*1.5 (round down)

Modified Base Movement = 35+35*0.5+35*0.5 = 35+17+17 = 69 m/turn

RUNNING
Running Rules SR4 p117
[STR+Running(Sprinting)] Test : hits add 2 m/turn to Running Rate

STR

• Troll STR: 5/10(15)
• Base STR 9
• K-10: +6 STR

Net STR: 15

Running(Sprinting)
Base Skill Running(Sprinting): 7(9)

• Aptitude (Athletics)
• Improved (Athletics) Adept Power: +7 dpm
• Enhanced Articulation +1 dmp Physical
• Syntacardium: +3 dpm Athletics
• Reflex Recorders: +1 dpm Athletics
• Modified dice pool STR+Running(Sprinting) = 15+9+7+1+3+1 = 36
• Purchase hits at 4 dice/hit: 9 hits
  Net Running Rate: 87 m/turn
• Movement Power Force 3: 261 m/turn

TOTAL: 261 m/turn

RAMMING
Ramming Table SR4 p160
Maxes at 201 m/turn
DV: BOD*3

BOD
Troll BOD 5/10(15) --> 5/13(19)

• Metagenic Improvement (BOD)
• Exceptional Attribute (BOD)
• Genetic Optimization (BOD)
• Customized Cybertorso Body Enhancement +3 BOD (16)
• K-10: +3 BOD (19)

Net BOD = 19

Ramming DV: BOD*3 [caps at 201 m/turn] = 57P
TOTAL DV: 57P

Ow.

Posted by: Makki Aug 19 2010, 05:22 PM

be careful with high BOD.

well, you'll need a force 10 spirit, then you'll enjoy a multiplier of 5

Posted by: Simon Kerimov Aug 19 2010, 05:24 PM

Good point. Bump the Force of the spirit up to 19, and the modified movement rate up to 1653 m/turn.

Posted by: Makki Aug 19 2010, 05:30 PM

which is nice, because they wont hear you coming, you're faster than sound. no need for traceless walk any more ^^

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 19 2010, 06:02 PM

So the question is who would actualy allow this in a game? Like i said this could be done with a drone easy. So is it fair game for a metahuman to do it too?

One could argue that vehicle body and metahuman body are not totally same for some reason, or that metahumans are usualy softer so dish out less damage, but a troll in combat armor is a very solid projectile object.

Posted by: Simon Kerimov Aug 19 2010, 06:04 PM

Maybe the troll is charging in for a subduing attack?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 19 2010, 10:43 PM

Well, at that kind of damage, both the troll and the target get mulched into a nice red paste i guess . .
furthermore . . wait what? 1,6kilometers per turn? and a turn is what? 3 seconds?
that's more than 500m per second. that's almost double the sound of speed . . you are running MACH TWO!
Well, due to sonic boom, better add the sound elemental effect to that damage . . so either half or no armor at all ^^
Hmm . . and shattering blow or whatever helped with breaking barriers and stuff . .
"I'M THE JUGGERNAUT BITCH!"

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 19 2010, 11:12 PM

Shattering Blow I thought was a bit much. Because you need to focus before you attack. You could I guess focus your chi as you run from 80 meters back. It would be cool though. Also you could combine it with an actual elemental aura spell, but running into a wall would I think be handled like a crash and not a ram. You do full damage to the wall and yourself.

What about a ram plate? What if anything would count as one? Charging the enemy with a spear and holding a riot shield or taser shield? Combat armor? I could see it simply being impossible.

It has logic to it.

Brings up a good point that these are some very high speeds we are dealing with. Also if the attack was just stun then it could never hurt a vehicle.

Human ramming into a human and each taking stun damage has some logic but it then would not make sense for them to do physical damage to vehicles. Humans ramming into people might have a positive AP and against vehicles it is even larger, but vehicles already have high armor so most ramming attacks would be stun and so ignored. Plus it makes the whole ramming rules messy.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 21 2010, 12:07 AM

Actually I checked. For a car to do this works great. For a drone it is not so great. Most that you can just take around on the street are body 2-3. A few are 4 but you need body 6 for this to start to look appealing. Daihatsu-Caterpillar Horseman would work if you had one of its modular components. The Mitsuhama Otomo (Cyborg Anthroform Walker Drone) would work perfect but it is ungodly expensive and hard to get. Most of the large drones only have a body of 4. The exception is Mitsuhama Tomino (Cyborg Walker Combat Drone) with a body of 10 but of course that thing is already murder on two gigantic legs.

Posted by: killfr3nzy Aug 21 2010, 01:37 PM

Man I'm tired. Scrolled past this casually, then very quickly back up.
Needless to say, it turns out you weren't building 'The Murder Mime'.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 21 2010, 02:14 PM

Hmmm

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 21 2010, 03:58 PM

Easy enough, make him an adept with volountary geas of not speaking.

Posted by: Simon Kerimov Aug 21 2010, 08:14 PM

Well, the sound wave is traveling behind him, so they appear to be silent. They are sort of a Mach-something murder mime.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 21 2010, 09:55 PM

Hmm . . did not think of that . . give him green skin, big teef, goring horns, bathe him in blood or paint him red and the people won't even hear the war cry of WAAAAGHHH! before he hits them O.o

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 21 2010, 11:04 PM

Someone asked: no, I'd never allow the ramming rules (which already suck) to be used for non-vehicles.

Posted by: killfr3nzy Aug 22 2010, 07:39 AM

If you wanted something that ran through people, then use a Rigger.
If you wanted a 'StreetSumo', use a Troll, maybe Fomori with Martial Arts in subdual holds and that thing where Sweep attacks can cause damage - rp'd by tackling him to the ground with your weight on top.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 22 2010, 11:37 AM

It seemed like an interesting way to have a character that could do some damage with out dumping a lot of points into a combat skill. Plus I like the idea of someone who avoids barriers and opposition though speed and thinking outside the box by jumping over, running around, or breaking through it.

I still think they should do some multiple of body damage but I can see that it is a bit broken to have metahuman body translate to vehicular body. Body is both resilience and to some degree mass. Ram damage should be mostly about mass, but that it to tediously complicated to keep track of. This might help things not be broken and still allow it to be used for people.

Totally made up house rule.
Metahuman effective Vehicular body**
Pixie sized 1 body
Gnome 2 body
Human, Dwarf, Elf, Ork Sized 3 body
Troll sized 4 body.
**Being in combat armor, having multiple cyber limbs, or otherwise being a hard object to crash into raises effective body by 1. Having an exceptionally high body near modified max may also raise effective body by a further 1 point.

METAHUMAN speed (meters/turn) damage value
1–20 Body ÷ 2 Stun damage#
21–60 Body Stun damage*#
61–200 Body x 2 Physical damage
201+ Body x 3 Physical damage
#may become physical damage if metahuman normally does physical damage in unarmed combat.
*This is a full out sprint for most people. 60 meters per 3 seconds is 44.7 miles per hour.

A GM that rules inertia does not work completely normally with the movement power might rule that it does not help with ram damage either. A lot of people rule that the movement power does not cause you to swerve out of control when you try to turn with the movement power on because that would make the power kind of useless. The same logic might also stop sonic booms and improved ram damage.

Posted by: Makki Aug 22 2010, 11:43 AM

i like it.i just thought:
Metahuman effective Vehicular body = weight in lb / 100 (rounded normaly)

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Aug 22 2010, 11:58 AM

That could work too. Pixies would end up being 1 or 0 body (depending on which way you round) but that is fine. How much do they weigh? I'd say no more than 20 pounds.

You might get into some problems with shape shifters (the spell and the metatype) but really a black bear slamming into you at ~36miles per hour will kill. Add celerity and you are looking at a tun of bear hitting you at ~56 miles. That is before adding dice from running in both cases.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 22 2010, 01:25 PM

If you want, take a look at the Metahuman Body as Improvised Weapon rules… is it (Body)S? Might be a good grounding point, I dunno.

Don't forget, this is futuristic! You can't use 20lbs, you have to use 10kg.

Posted by: killfr3nzy Aug 22 2010, 01:57 PM

I wouldn't allow these rules. It's like trying to save points in Astral Combat by flying at people as fast as possible. If you want to do it, do it within the rules. BP's are there to rate your effectiveness and talent, of which combat is part. And say you did have these rules - you have no 'skill' at actually hitting people, and would lose rating for trying.
So again, use the rules. Unarmed: Subdual (could go with Unarmed: Charge, but I assume you're not gonna run away and 'come back for another run'), Martial Arts, a shield (there's your ram plate: it gives armour), etc. Remember that being possessed means you lose all control and therefore skills anyway, plus the Mage uses up services for each modification-of/new orders. A better choice is to possess the armour and give the Spirit the task: Use Movement on the person wearing this armour.
Also, keep in mind that vehicles/drones are designed to crash, and come out as intact as possible. Living things in general, and meta's specificaly, aren't. So you'd take as almost as much damage as what you hit, maybe minus one or two dice - have you ever run into someone at full speed, without any 'combat skills' to avoid getting entangled and managing to roll away gracefully?

Posted by: Makki Aug 24 2010, 07:43 AM

Improvised Melee Weapons Table (AR p 17) states
Metahuman Body
Reach 1
(BOD/2+2)S
unarmed skill
my interpretation is, this works not only for trolls hitting people with dwarves, but for pushing someone over/on/against someone else. as a consequence, one should be able to push oneself 'against' your opponent. it's just tackling, but you need the unarmed skill to not miss. i'd houserule, the tackle has to withstand at least half the damage

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 24 2010, 08:25 AM

Isn't there an official rule?
Under thrown people, in SR3, both took damage based on the other persons body score minus their own worn armor.

Posted by: Mäx Aug 24 2010, 10:05 AM

This one maxes out at 3 and you have to take it for an invidual skill, not a skill group.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 24 2010, 12:51 PM

That's an interesting interpretation, but I think it's a bit much to call pushing someone into another person 'an improvised weapon'. All the other weapons in the list are things you *hit* someone with; there's no way both actions do the same damage. So, that breaks the crucial link in the logic chain of improvised metahuman weapon > pushing > tackling > 'ramming'.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 11 2010, 05:56 PM

I think the most deadly weapon in the game is an unarmed troll phys adept swung by a melee troll phys adept. Possibly one of the few recipes for the elusive dragon chunky salsa.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 06:04 PM

So, what, he punches as he's swung?

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 11 2010, 08:29 PM

Probably, but those two are not compatible with each other.
Only boost to body for the swung body will bring up damage and mystical armor will help stage down his own damage, but nothing else will help with that.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 08:32 PM

Yeah, I was struggling to imagine the point. Pretty sure you're better off just using a weapon.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 11 2010, 09:28 PM

Rocket propelled troll adept.
Str 15
Unarmed 7 + 3 improved ability.
Smashing blow
Elemental strike blast
Inertia Strike
Critical strike 9
Killing Hands 9
Rooting 9 (for staying on the rocket)

At the point of impact, going twice the speed of sounds, the deadly outstretched fist of our foolhardy speed junkie: Ogalag the Very Nearly Invincible, strikes its target and splits the atoms: causing a nuclear explosion.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 11 2010, 10:08 PM

How about a anthroform drone made to look like a Sumotori?

Then you get to use the regular Vehicle rules.





-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 10:18 PM

No rules for that, Badmoodguy.

Yeah, Karma, I think someone suggested that a little earlier. The ramming rules are yucky, but at least it's 'legal'.