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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Some alternate weapons rules
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 02:20 PM
Hey there dumpshockers,
i have been thinking a lot about the shadowrun rules for firearms.
Mainly i found the recoil rules weird plus the cyclic firing rate for full auto is ridicously low.
I also read some alternate rules (rayguns i think), cool stuff to read but 3rd edition and very complex.
So i cooked up some stuff myself, i hope you guys like it and dont flame too much.
Obsolete! http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32631&view=findpost&p=985566Firing modes:
SS: remains the same
SA: remains the same
BF: short bursts increase the base damage of a weapon by 50% (multiply base damage by 1.5 round up)
long bursts: removed
Full auto: firing a weapon in full auto is a complex action and uses up to 40 rounds, every 2 rounds fired equal 1 dice, this pool is divided by the range modifier (regardless of aiming aids) and then added to the test. Up to 4 targets can be engaged at the same time if they are within 1 meter of each other, but the successes of the test have to be split up evenly among the targets(round down).
Suppressive Fire: remains almost the same except that 40 rounds are used and an area of up to 40 meters width and 2 meters height is covered. The result of the number of bullets divided by the meters width is the threshold for the dodge test. Any successes generated by the attacker increase the DV by 1 per two net hits.
Recoil: Recoil is generated every time a weapon is fired. This means that pulling the trigger once will generate a recoil of 1. So a streetsam who fires his weapon 5 times during thecombat turn, will have to deal with -4 recoil when he fires the weapon the fifth time.
Heavy Weapons: Heavy Weapons like Miniguns and HMGs produce more recoil than normal weapons, therefore the recoil for bursts is doubled, so is the range modifier for calculating the dice in full auto mode.
Maximum Fire Rate: A normal weapon cannot fire more than 40 rounds per Initiative pass
Range modifier table:
short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long : -3W6
extreme : -4W6
Recoilmods:
The following recoil modifications and accessories need changes due to the recoil rules change.
Heavy barrel: first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation they offer one additional dice.
Foregrip: A foregrip helps holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.
Bipod: When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.
Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.
Stock: a rigid or employed folding stock stabilizes the weapon against the shooter shoulder, it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.
Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation.
Comments and suggestions appreciated
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 02:37 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM) 
CODE
Recoil: Recoil is generated every time a weapon is fired. This means that pulling the trigger once will generate a recoil of 1. So a streetsam who fires his weapon 5 times during the initiative pass, will have to deal with -4 recoil when he fires the weapon the fifth time.
Comments and suggestions appreciated
That is essentially how recoil works in the current system. You get -1 recoil for every bullet fired for the initiative pass.
x2 Semi-auto? 2 bullets
0 Recoil, -1 Recoil
x2 Short burst? 6 bullets
-2 Recoil, -5 Recoil
Short/Long Burst? 9 bullets
-2 Recoil, -8 Recoil
Full Burst? 10 bullets
-9 Recoil
It resets each initiative pass. I'm not sure how your rule has changed anything except for clarify any potential ambiguity, unless you're suggesting the two short burst in an initiative pass would generate -1 Recoil/-2 Recoil.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 02:42 PM
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 26 2010, 09:37 AM)
That is essentially how recoil works in the current system. You get -1 recoil for every bullet fired for the initiative pass.
x2 Semi-auto? 2 bullets
0 Recoil, -1 Recoil
x2 Short burst? 6 bullets
-2 Recoil, -5 Recoil
Short/Long Burst? 9 bullets
-2 Recoil, -8 Recoil
Full Burst? 10 bullets
-9 Recoil
It resets each initiative pass. I'm not sure how your rule has changed anything except for clarify any potential ambiguity, unless you're suggesting the two short burst in an initiative pass would generate -1 Recoil/-2 Recoil.
x2 Semi-auto? 2 bullets
0 Recoil, -1 Recoil
x2 Short burst? 6 bullets
-2 Recoil, -5 Recoil
Short/Long Burst? 9 bullets
-2 Recoil, -8 Recoil
Full Burst? 10 bullets
-9 Recoil
It resets each initiative pass. I'm not sure how your rule has changed anything except for clarify any potential ambiguity, unless you're suggesting the two short burst in an initiative pass would generate -1 Recoil/-2 Recoil.
if i am not mistaken recoil only accumulates per Action Phase not Initiative Pass, and yes, i meant first burst 0 recoil, second burst -1, third burst -2 recoil and so forth.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 02:47 PM
By changing mods to +DP instead, isn't it just making the problem worse? At least RC was self-limiting. 
At first glance, it looks complicated, in the way that could slow down the game. Good that you're making an effort, though. Playtest it on guinea pigs and let us know?
Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 26 2010, 02:49 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 09:42 AM)
if i am not mistaken recoil only accumulates per Action Phase not Initiative Pass, and yes, i meant first burst 0 recoil, second burst -1, third burst -2 recoil and so forth.
Functionally, Action Phase and Initiative Pass mean the same thing. Or rather, you get one Action Phase per Initiative Pass.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:03 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 09:47 AM)
By changing mods to +DP instead, isn't it just making the problem worse? At least RC was self-limiting.
At first glance, it looks complicated, in the way that could slow down the game. Good that you're making an effort, though. Playtest it on guinea pigs and let us know?
At first glance, it looks complicated, in the way that could slow down the game. Good that you're making an effort, though. Playtest it on guinea pigs and let us know?
well the reason for this was basically that an unmodded assault rifle like an AK right is totally unusable, if you wanna do full auto mayhem you need maxed out recoil compensation... that kinda sucks imo.
i cant playtest it, since i recently moved to a, well, lets call it a village, not much running going on here...
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:05 PM
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 09:49 AM)
Functionally, Action Phase and Initiative Pass mean the same thing. Or rather, you get one Action Phase per Initiative Pass.
oh hell then i meant combat turn instead of initiative pass/action phase!
i'll edit it..
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 03:05 PM
But an AK on rock'n'roll is supposed to be near unusable. You're not throwing 30 rounds into a bullseye downrange with an off-the-shelf rifle.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 03:08 PM
He has a point the HK 98
6p -1 SA/BF/FA - 38©
If you have your typical thug ganger 3 agility, 3 automatics skill would have 6 dice.
If he does a FA narrow he would have -3 dice to hit with. Before other modifiers.
Even if all he does is a narrow BF that's still leaving him with 3 dice to try and hit someone. That's pretty pathetic.
Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 26 2010, 03:10 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 10:08 AM)
He has a point the HK 98
6p -1 SA/BF/FA - 38©
If you have your typical thug ganger 3 agility, 3 automatics skill would have 6 dice.
If he does a FA narrow he would have -3 dice to hit with. Before other modifiers.
Even if all he does is a narrow BF that's still leaving him with 3 dice to try and hit someone. That's pretty pathetic.
6p -1 SA/BF/FA - 38©
If you have your typical thug ganger 3 agility, 3 automatics skill would have 6 dice.
If he does a FA narrow he would have -3 dice to hit with. Before other modifiers.
Even if all he does is a narrow BF that's still leaving him with 3 dice to try and hit someone. That's pretty pathetic.
Actually, that's pretty accurate to what I've seen when even reasonably trained people try to do full auto for the first time...
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 03:13 PM
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 11:10 AM)
Actually, that's pretty accurate to what I've seen when even reasonably trained people try to do full auto for the first time...
Just look at Youtube videos of people firing a single shot from a gun.
Now amplify that about 10-fold to apply for full-auto.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 03:18 PM
for the first time..
but a ganger with a 3 skill is not "a first timer"
Rating 3: Professional
Firearms example: Regular beat cop or military grunt
Perhaps it's reasonable to think that people of that skill level don't really aim when in full auto mode. They just do suppression fire.
That gives them 6 dice to hit anyone not under cover
I guess that's reasonable.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:22 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 10:05 AM)
But an AK on rock'n'roll is supposed to be near unusable. You're not throwing 30 rounds into a bullseye downrange with an off-the-shelf rifle.
AK on full auto 0-50 ? you are dead no matter what. besides it not like i am suggesting to automatically increase DV. you just get more dice, which can still all fail.
Plus if your target is at extreme range you get a lot less dice.
Although a minor adjustment to the range table might help:
short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long: -3W6
extreme: -4W6
With this you get at short range standard AK AR:
30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP: -1
for extreme range you would get:
30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP:-1
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 03:22 PM
Those folks are trained to fire in short bursts with rifles, longer bursts with LMG's.
Heh. Have you ever tried to fire a rifle on rock 'n roll at even short ranges? It's tougher than you think. There's a reason why it's known as 'Spray 'n Pray'.
Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 26 2010, 03:24 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 11:18 AM)
for the first time..
but a ganger with a 3 skill is not "a first timer"
Rating 3: Professional
Firearms example: Regular beat cop or military grunt
Perhaps it's reasonable to think that people of that skill level don't really aim when in full auto mode. They just do suppression fire.
That gives them 6 dice to hit anyone not under cover
I guess that's reasonable.
but a ganger with a 3 skill is not "a first timer"
Rating 3: Professional
Firearms example: Regular beat cop or military grunt
Perhaps it's reasonable to think that people of that skill level don't really aim when in full auto mode. They just do suppression fire.
That gives them 6 dice to hit anyone not under cover
I guess that's reasonable.
Yeah, its one of those fluff vs mechanics thing. Though, to be fair a grunt would be more likely to have automatics(assault rifle) 3(+2). But yeah, any type of professional grade gunfighter is probably going to be throwing at least 10 dice, which seems reasonable with the mechanics of full auto.
Posted by: ZeroPoint Aug 26 2010, 03:32 PM
So I am thinking you mean Combat Turn mayhaps?
I've actually been tinkering with my own idea for similar changes, but I wan't to make them as low impact as possible (less confusing and won't break existing characters too much) so they are still in works.
Edit: Ack, i see this has been addressed. Thats what i get from trying to post while at work.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:34 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:22 AM)
AK on full auto 0-50 ? you are dead no matter what. besides it not like i am suggesting to automatically increase DV. you just get more dice, which can still all fail.
Plus if your target is at extreme range you get a lot less dice.
Although a minor adjustment to the range table might help:
short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long: -3W6
extreme: -4W6
With this you get at short range standard AK AR:
30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP: -1
for extreme range you would get:
30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP:-1
Plus if your target is at extreme range you get a lot less dice.
Although a minor adjustment to the range table might help:
short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long: -3W6
extreme: -4W6
With this you get at short range standard AK AR:
30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP: -1
for extreme range you would get:
30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP:-1
This example with professional level 3.
With this you get at short range standard AK AR:
30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill(+3W6) + att. (+3W6) = 22W6 DP with DV:6P AP: -1
for extreme range you would get:
30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill(+3W6) + att.(+3W6) = 5W6 DP with DV:6P AP:-1
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 03:35 PM
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 11:24 AM)
Yeah, its one of those fluff vs mechanics thing. Though, to be fair a grunt would be more likely to have automatics(assault rifle) 3(+2). But yeah, any type of professional grade gunfighter is probably going to be throwing at least 10 dice, which seems reasonable with the mechanics of full auto.
Mechanically, it seems that full auto on the fly is meant to be done as suppressive fire or to use wide bursts to apply the -9 penalty to the targets dodge pool, thus negating the fact that you aren't going to be able to get a lot of net hits. 3 recoil compensation is relatively easy to acquire and would make full auto usable for people with dice pools of 7 or higher. Full auto accurately (narrow bursts) seems to be more the goal of having bipods and tripods and other ways to greatly increase recoil compensation.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 03:38 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 03:34 PM)
This example with professional level 3.
With this you get at short range standard AK AR:
30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill(+3W6) + att. (+3W6) = 22W6 DP with DV:6P AP: -1
for extreme range you would get:
30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill(+3W6) + att.(+3W6) = 5W6 DP with DV:6P AP:-1
With this you get at short range standard AK AR:
30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill(+3W6) + att. (+3W6) = 22W6 DP with DV:6P AP: -1
for extreme range you would get:
30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill(+3W6) + att.(+3W6) = 5W6 DP with DV:6P AP:-1
Why is it +15 for the 30 rounds at short and +3 at extreme?
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 03:41 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 11:38 AM)
Why is it +15 for the 30 rounds at short and +3 at extreme?
I'll be honest. He's confusing me and I don't get confused easily.
Namely, I have no idea what the W represents.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 03:42 PM
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 26 2010, 03:41 PM)
I'll be honest. He's confusing me and I don't get confused easily.
Indeed. It means that ambushes automatically turn everyone to hamburger.
It just seems like trying to reinvent the wheel.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:43 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 10:38 AM)
Why is it +15 for the 30 rounds at short and +3 at extreme?
30 rounds (1 dice per 2 rounds)= 15 dice (divided by range modifier +1 for short, -4 for extreme, we assume a positive result) 15 dice for short (15/1) 3 for extreme (15/4)
Posted by: Kruger Aug 26 2010, 03:43 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 07:22 AM)
AK on full auto 0-50 ? you are dead no matter what.
I've seen some awfully bad marksmen in my day. I mean, I'm not going to volunteer to test the theory, but I always wouldn't call it a sure thing.The rifle is almost always accurate. It's the shooter who misses.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 03:47 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 03:43 PM)
30 rounds (1 dice per 2 rounds)= 15 dice (divided by range modifier +1 for short, -4 for extreme, we assume a positive result) 15 dice for short (15/1) 3 for extreme (15/4)
What about folks able to ignore range modifiers?
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:47 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 10:43 AM)
I've seen some awfully bad marksmen in my day. I mean, I'm not going to volunteer to test the theory, but I always wouldn't call it a sure thing.
The rifle is almost always accurate. It's the shooter who misses.
The rifle is almost always accurate. It's the shooter who misses.
agreed, thats why i think full auto should give additional dice, depending on range, instead of an increased DV.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 03:49 PM
Although Should't all Assault Rifles have 1 point of recoil compensation from a stock?
So that if you're firing it from the shoulder you have 1 RC.
mm.. a position recoil compensation.
one 1 knee = 1 rc
prone = 2rc
stabalized on something = 1rc
so lets say I had the HK 98.
I'm on one knee, my gun resting on the window sill, with the gun to my shoulder
I would get 3 rc.
Now as a Military grunt I have 3 agi, 3 skill, and 3 points of RC.
So now if I try to full Auto I have 0 dice.
But if I short burst then I have 6 dice where I might have had 4.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:51 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 10:47 AM)
What about folks able to ignore range modifiers?
its in the original post:
they may ignore the negative dice, but the dice granted by full auto are always divided by the range modifiers.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 03:51 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 03:47 PM)
agreed, thats why i think full auto should give additional dice, depending on range, instead of an increased DV.
That's what it does on wide burst, effectively (by imposing a -9 dp modifier to the defenders dodge pool).
It's the narrow burst that increases the dv.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:53 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 10:49 AM)
Although Should't all Assault Rifles have 1 point of recoil compensation from a stock?
So that if you're firing it from the shoulder you have 1 RC.
mm.. a position recoil compensation.
one 1 knee = 1 rc
prone = 2rc
stabalized on something = 1rc
so lets say I had the HK 98.
I'm on one knee, my gun resting on the window sill, with the gun to my shoulder
I would get 3 rc.
Now as a Military grunt I have 3 agi, 3 skill, and 3 points of RC.
So now if I try to full Auto I have 0 dice.
But if I short burst then I have 6 dice where I might have had 4.
So that if you're firing it from the shoulder you have 1 RC.
mm.. a position recoil compensation.
one 1 knee = 1 rc
prone = 2rc
stabalized on something = 1rc
so lets say I had the HK 98.
I'm on one knee, my gun resting on the window sill, with the gun to my shoulder
I would get 3 rc.
Now as a Military grunt I have 3 agi, 3 skill, and 3 points of RC.
So now if I try to full Auto I have 0 dice.
But if I short burst then I have 6 dice where I might have had 4.
this is covered in the recoil compensation section...
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 03:57 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 10:51 AM)
That's what it does on wide burst, effectively (by imposing a -9 dp modifier to the defenders dodge pool).
It's the narrow burst that increases the dv.
It's the narrow burst that increases the dv.
sure, but have you ever seen somebody wide bursting IRL, plus my intention was the following: full auto at close range is absolutely lethal but pretty pointless at long ranges, the current rules make it either completly pointless (no recoil comp) or lethal at all ranges (maxed recoil comp), which is imho stupid.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 03:59 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 03:51 PM)
its in the original post:
they may ignore the negative dice, but the dice granted by full auto are always divided by the range modifiers.
they may ignore the negative dice, but the dice granted by full auto are always divided by the range modifiers.
All right, but then why would I want to do all this math in the first place?
Currently the system as it stands isn't too bad. If I want to burstfire, I have to compensate for the recoil to keep my pools. Adding more dice doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it so it's easier to get a billion successes. A pack of sprawl gangers with cheap AK's will turn any opposition to hamburger with a hail of gunfire.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:00 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 03:57 PM)
sure, but have you ever seen somebody wide bursting IRL, plus my intention was the following: full auto at close range is absolutely lethal but pretty pointless at long ranges, the current rules make it either completly pointless (no recoil comp) or lethal at all ranges (maxed recoil comp), which is imho stupid.
Yes, I have, and no, it isn't.. The rules right now are much more accurate than what you're trying to turn it into.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 04:02 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 10:59 AM)
All right, but then why would I want to do all this math in the first place?
Currently the system as it stands isn't too bad. If I want to burstfire, I have to compensate for the recoil to keep my pools. Adding more dice doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it so it's easier to get a billion successes. A pack of sprawl gangers with cheap AK's will turn any opposition to hamburger with a hail of gunfire.
Currently the system as it stands isn't too bad. If I want to burstfire, I have to compensate for the recoil to keep my pools. Adding more dice doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it so it's easier to get a billion successes. A pack of sprawl gangers with cheap AK's will turn any opposition to hamburger with a hail of gunfire.
is it really that much math?
and yes a bunch of gangers with cheap AKs are scary, ask anyone in brazil or mexico.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:07 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 04:02 PM)
is it really that much math?
and yes a bunch of gangers with cheap AKs are scary, ask anyone in brazil or mexico.
and yes a bunch of gangers with cheap AKs are scary, ask anyone in brazil or mexico.
Currently? Yes, it is.
I have to have 30 rounds divided by two to get fifteen dice divided by range plus weapon skill plus linked attribute plus dice from weapon mods and everything else.
With the current system? Skill plus attribute plus mods minus range and recoil. Done.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 04:09 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 11:00 AM)
Yes, I have, and no, it isn't.. The rules right now are much more accurate than what you're trying to turn it into.
it probably depends on how you imagine wide spread, in my mind certain chuck norris flicks show up, so wide spread is something never seen IRL and i have served my time....
but those rules are merely a suggestion, you dont have to use 'em, i merely wanted to check out if there were some major flaws, lke the initiative pass thing and the range table modifer issue...
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:12 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 04:09 PM)
it probably depends on how you imagine wide spread, in my mind certain chuck norris flicks show up, so wide spread is something never seen IRL and i have served my time....
but those rules are merely a suggestion, you dont have to use 'em, i merely wanted to check out if there were some major flaws, lke the initiative pass thing and the range table modifer issue...
but those rules are merely a suggestion, you dont have to use 'em, i merely wanted to check out if there were some major flaws, lke the initiative pass thing and the range table modifer issue...
Chuck Norris movies =/= RL.
I find the rules to be overly complicated, though they give unimaginable power to people with little to no skill and godlike dice cascading to those who do. It's my opinion that the automatics be left to those with proper training and not rely on full auto to annihilate everything in the 0-50 range.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 04:13 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 04:02 PM)
is it really that much math?
and yes a bunch of gangers with cheap AKs are scary, ask anyone in brazil or mexico.
and yes a bunch of gangers with cheap AKs are scary, ask anyone in brazil or mexico.
Those guys mostly use burst fire. Not full auto.
And burst Fire is only a -2 or -5 recoil depending.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 04:14 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 11:07 AM)
Currently? Yes, it is.
I have to have 30 rounds divided by two to get fifteen dice divided by range plus weapon skill plus linked attribute plus dice from weapon mods and everything else.
With the current system? Skill plus attribute plus mods minus range and recoil. Done.
I have to have 30 rounds divided by two to get fifteen dice divided by range plus weapon skill plus linked attribute plus dice from weapon mods and everything else.
With the current system? Skill plus attribute plus mods minus range and recoil. Done.
my system
skill + attb. + range + mods + rounds/range/2
current system
skill + attb. + range + mods ; base damage + rounds spent/ dodge pool - rounds spent
Posted by: Kruger Aug 26 2010, 04:16 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 08:00 AM)
Yes, I have, and no, it isn't.. The rules right now are much more accurate than what you're trying to turn it into.
No, he is right. The recoil rules don't make much sense the way they are written, and really never have. They are way more cinematic than even a remotely accurate depiction of ranged combat.
His way of doing things makes it more complicated, sure, but you can't really say it is wrong. It may just be more number crunching than you're willing to do, that's all. Some people might prefer their combat be less John Woo.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:16 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 05:14 PM)
my system
skill + attb. + range + mods + rounds/range/2
current system
skill + attb. + range + mods ; base damage + rounds spent/ dodge pool - rounds spent
skill + attb. + range + mods + rounds/range/2
current system
skill + attb. + range + mods ; base damage + rounds spent/ dodge pool - rounds spent
So you're stating that the actual damage resistance/dodge rolls are what makes the system so complicated?
And you're also saying that people now have no chances to dodge and must soak the 22 dice your theoretical skill 3 is rolling?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 04:19 PM
I posted some different burst fire rules a couple months ago, if you'd like to take a look at those. They have the advantage of being much simpler, and they've playtested well (faster play, not obviously imbalanced). *shrug* I can find the link.
(If you're looking for realism, you're in the wrong place.)
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 04:23 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 11:13 AM)
Those guys mostly use burst fire. Not full auto.
And burst Fire is only a -2 or -5 recoil depending.
And burst Fire is only a -2 or -5 recoil depending.
i've seen different, also the AK as such was meant to be fired full auto. the first position after safe on an AK is FA then BF and last SA.
the advantage of this system is, that
1. even cheap assault rifles become useful
2. the decisions of wide and narrow burst and their implications disappear
3. weapons dont need max recoil comp. to be usefull in full auto
4. high recoil comp. still provides benefits
5. more realism (ok,ok, debatable)
Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 26 2010, 04:23 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 12:16 PM)
No, he is right. The recoil rules don't make much sense the way they are written, and really never have. They are way more cinematic than even a remotely accurate depiction of ranged combat.
His way of doing things makes it more complicated, sure, but you can't really say it is wrong. It may just be more number crunching than you're willing to do, that's all. Some people might prefer their combat be less John Woo.
His way of doing things makes it more complicated, sure, but you can't really say it is wrong. It may just be more number crunching than you're willing to do, that's all. Some people might prefer their combat be less John Woo.
Of course the rules aren't terribly accurate; I don't see how going farther away from realism makes it less John Woo like though.
Posted by: Kruger Aug 26 2010, 04:26 PM
Edit: I take it back. Don't care. Trying to rationalize SR combat mechanics makes my head hurt.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 04:28 PM
Why is range being counted twice?
skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2
The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)
a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.
That seems like crazy dice.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 04:28 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 11:16 AM)
So you're stating that the actual damage resistance/dodge rolls are what makes the system so complicated?
And you're also saying that people now have no chances to dodge and must soak the 22 dice your theoretical skill 3 is rolling?
And you're also saying that people now have no chances to dodge and must soak the 22 dice your theoretical skill 3 is rolling?
of course they can dodge, but the attackers action dont influence the dodge pool. your dodge pool is always the same.
it boils down to 3 calculations: how many attack dice, how many net success, damage calculation
where in the curent system you have 5: how many attack dice, how many dodge dice, how much damage, how many net success, damage calculation
Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 26 2010, 04:29 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 12:26 PM)
How is he going farther away from realism by increasing the penalties, or decreasing the bonuses, for burst fire at longer ranges?
By increasing the bonus at shorter ranges, where play is more likely to happen?
edit: in any case:
QUOTE
the advantage of this system is, that
1. even cheap assault rifles become useful
2. the decisions of wide and narrow burst and their implications disappear
3. weapons dont need max recoil comp. to be usefull in full auto
4. high recoil comp. still provides benefits
5. more realism (ok,ok, debatable)
1. even cheap assault rifles become useful
2. the decisions of wide and narrow burst and their implications disappear
3. weapons dont need max recoil comp. to be usefull in full auto
4. high recoil comp. still provides benefits
5. more realism (ok,ok, debatable)
Well, it seems to accomplish 1-4 pretty well.
Posted by: Kruger Aug 26 2010, 04:36 PM
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 08:29 AM)
By increasing the bonus at shorter ranges, where play is more likely to happen?
I know I can put a lot of rounds on target firing short bursts at short range. I've seen guys who are really good shooters put an amazing number of rounds on target at short range.
Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:36 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 05:28 PM)
of course they can dodge, but the attackers action dont influence the dodge pool. your dodge pool is always the same.
it boils down to 3 calculations: how many attack dice, how many net success, damage calculation
where in the curent system you have 5: how many attack dice, how many dodge dice, how much damage, how many net success, damage calculation
it boils down to 3 calculations: how many attack dice, how many net success, damage calculation
where in the curent system you have 5: how many attack dice, how many dodge dice, how much damage, how many net success, damage calculation
Save that 'how many attack dice' has subsequent calculations, namely rounds fired / 2 / range.
Plus the insane bonuses you give for shorter ranges has turned combat into "I throw my dice at you."
I feel that 'More damage or less dodge' is not that complicated a concept, as selecting one locks in both damage and dodge pool.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 04:36 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 11:28 AM)
Why is range being counted twice?
skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2
The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)
a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.
That seems like crazy dice.
skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2
The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)
a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.
That seems like crazy dice.
actually you calculated correct..
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:39 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 05:36 PM)
first of all you forgot to divide the rounds fired by 2 (2 rounds = 1 Dice), secondly i also added an slightly altered range modifier table (yes you are right i should put it in the first post).
Looks like he divided it fine to me, otherwise it would've been 46 dice and not 26.
Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 26 2010, 04:42 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 12:36 PM)
I know I can put a lot of rounds on target firing short bursts at short range. I've seen guys who are really good shooters put an amazing number of rounds on target at short range.
Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.
Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.
With good RC, I can too. With no recoil comp (no stock, no tripod, etc), it takes an amazing shooter to put a round past the first three in anything he's trying to shoot at.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 04:44 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 11:39 AM)
Looks like he divided it fine to me, otherwise it would've been 46 dice and not 26.
true, i guess he didnt divide by range then.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 04:44 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 05:36 PM)
I know I can put a lot of rounds on target firing short bursts at short range. I've seen guys who are really good shooters put an amazing number of rounds on target at short range.
Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.
Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.
The real problem is that what the difference between a 3 skill and a 7 skill is not correctly reflected in the dicepools and bell curve.
Perhaps we need a max hits = skill thing, or some other mechanic to imprve the diff between skill stats
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:45 PM
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 04:42 PM)
With good RC, I can too. With no recoil comp (no stock, no tripod, etc), it takes an amazing shooter to put a round past the first three in anything he's trying to shoot at.
Yeah, but bursting is a lot easier on the recoil than full auto, which is the source of my discomfort with this whole system. Police/military train to fire short bursts to maximize accuracy and stopping power - not a lot of folks get up after three rounds to center mass delivered at the same time. Full auto puts a lot of lead downrange, but after the fifth round leaves the chamber your barrel is already tracking way up and the rest of the time is overcompensating for barrel jump.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 04:46 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 05:36 PM)
first of all you forgot to divide the rounds fired by 2 (2 rounds = 1 Dice), secondly i also added an slightly altered range modifier table (yes you are right i should put it in the first post).
40 / 2 = 20 in my math classes?
and I did divide by range
40 / 2 / 1 (short range) still equal to 20
What I missed on the extreme range example was
40 / 2 / 4 = 5 -4 = 1, so it's 7 dice, not 11. And it's still 11 dice if I have any kind of range ignorers like mag vision.
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:48 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 05:44 PM)
true, i guess he didnt divide by range then.
No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.
Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.
Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.
Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 26 2010, 04:49 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 12:45 PM)
Yeah, but bursting is a lot easier on the recoil than full auto, which is the source of my discomfort with this whole system. Police/military train to fire short bursts to maximize accuracy and stopping power - not a lot of folks get up after three rounds to center mass delivered at the same time. Full auto puts a lot of lead downrange, but after the fifth round leaves the chamber your barrel is already tracking way up and the rest of the time is overcompensating for barrel jump.
That's what I was saying?
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 04:51 PM
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 04:49 PM)
That's what I was saying?
No, that's what *I* was saying. See, it says my name there in the quote box and everything.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 04:51 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 05:48 PM)
No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.
Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.
Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.
Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.
Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.
Only because Satellite weaponry has a Pilot 8, Targeting 8, OrbitalLaser AutosoftL: 3, for something like 19 dice to shoot for you. And that's still less dice than what he's proposing
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 04:52 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 11:48 AM)
No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.
Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.
Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.
Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.
Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.
yeah i realized that actually i made a mistake.
if the amount of dice is really worrying you, you could always rule that 3 rounds equal one dice.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 04:55 PM
*shrug* I'm still more concerned that you can now use RC mods to get +6 DP for *single* shots.
Posted by: Kruger Aug 26 2010, 04:59 PM
No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters put full auto on a target at 25m or so and nail most of the shots. But, at the same time, none of them would even think of trying the same thing at 200m. Ranged combat is incredibly hard to model in a role playing game because of the amount of calculations. 93 Games's Reflex System makes the best playable attempt at it I've seen and I'd be curious if anyone knows better ones. But even Reflex has a fair number of calculations and isn't perfect. Shadowrun is just massively imperfect. I think that may be that maeel is just trying to fix an unfixable system. But all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong when he said that the range modifiers maeel was suggesting didn't make sense.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 05:00 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 11:55 AM)
*shrug* I'm still more concerned that you can now use RC mods to get +6 DP for *single* shots.
that would be a SA longarm weapon with stock, tripod and heavy barrel at point blank range. Sounds like a glass cannon...
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 05:03 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 04:52 PM)
yeah i realized that actually i made a mistake.
if the amount of dice is really worrying you, you could always rule that 3 rounds equal one dice.
if the amount of dice is really worrying you, you could always rule that 3 rounds equal one dice.
40/3=13.3, so we'll call it 13.
SK+A of 6 + 13 dice at short is ninteen dice, 13/4 is 3.25 so we'll call it 3, which means nine dice at extreme range if he's ignoring the modifier (which ain't tough to do).
Nine dice on an unmodded AK to hit something almost a klick away is still...off.
Posted by: Mooncrow Aug 26 2010, 05:06 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 11:59 AM)
No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters put full auto on a target at 25m or so and nail most of the shots. But, at the same time, none of them would even think of trying the same thing at 200m. Ranged combat is incredibly hard to model in a role playing game because of the amount of calculations. 93 Games's Reflex System makes the best playable attempt at it I've seen and I'd be curious if anyone knows better ones. But even Reflex has a fair number of calculations and isn't perfect. Shadowrun is just massively imperfect. I think that may be that maeel is just trying to fix an unfixable system. But all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong when he said that the range modifiers maeel was suggesting didn't make sense.
I guess we're arguing different parts of the equation then. I don't have problems with making full auto worse at farther ranges; I do have a problem with making it better at short. I mean, I agree that there are some people that can do amazing things at short range. But the average ganger certainly can't
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 05:07 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 04:59 PM)
No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters
Right there. Really good shooters. This system and the range modifiers put an amount of dice on the range scales that borders on retarded, and that's for an average joe. I've got decent training, enough to probably be able to qualify at a police academy and I'm not gonna put most shots on a target at 25 rockin' and a rollin'. Under this system, not only would I be able to rock 'n roll with no problems, I would put damn near 100% of the shots I fire on an unmodified AK (which has horrible muzzle climb) on a target at 50 meters (19 dice) and about 70% on target at 100 meters (12 dice).
QUOTE
all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong
I don't like you anymore.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 05:08 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 11:28 AM)
Why is range being counted twice?
skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2
The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)
a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.
That seems like crazy dice.
skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2
The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)
a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.
That seems like crazy dice.
under the current system you would have:
3 + 3 + (-9) at 15 DV for short
and
3 + 3 + (-9) + (-3) at 15 DV
but lets calculate that for the rule 3 rounds = 1dice:
3 + 3 + 1 + 13 = 17 at DV 6 for short
3 + 3 + (-4) + 3 = 5 at DV for extreme
maybe thats better
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 05:09 PM
You mean, sounds like a steel cannon. You can't require PB range, or it's impossible to do anything *without* Full Auto.
Did you take into account the use of Edge?
Posted by: Kruger Aug 26 2010, 05:15 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 09:07 AM)
I don't like you anymore.
You weren't totally wrong. I don't know or care enough about 4e off the top of my head to argue the total mechanic. You are probably right that his rules don't work. I was just referring to his scalable bonuses/penalties at range. In my experience, there should be nothing except penalties at long range, heh. I don't care how many rounds you put downrange at Extreme. Sure, I've hit targets at 1800m with a burst from a .50 before, and pretty consistently. But those targets also weren't moving and I had the benefit of a tripod mount and a known distance to set the sights at. Like I said, 4e's mechanics are just too broken for combat and damage calculation as written to try and modify them.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 05:16 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 12:09 PM)
You mean, sounds like a steel cannon. You can't require PB range, or it's impossible to do anything *without* Full Auto.
Did you take into account the use of Edge?
You can't require PB range, or it's impossible to do anything *without* Full Auto.Did you take into account the use of Edge?
I dont understand the PB part.
And no, i didnt consider edge
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 05:20 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 05:15 PM)
You weren't totally wrong. I don't know or care enough about 4e off the top of my head to argue the total mechanic. You are probably right that his rules don't work. I was just referring to his scalable bonuses/penalties at range. In my experience, there should be nothing except penalties at long range, heh. I don't care how many rounds you put downrange at Extreme. Sure, I've hit targets at 1800m with a burst from a .50 before, and pretty consistently. But those targets also weren't moving and I had the benefit of a tripod mount and a known distance to set the sights at.
Like I said, 4e's mechanics are just too broken for combat and damage calculation as written to try and modify them.
Like I said, 4e's mechanics are just too broken for combat and damage calculation as written to try and modify them.
You still broke my heart.
But...eh, the long range stuff isn't as bad. I can't get over the cascade at short. It's akin to my players literally taking 30 dice and throwing them at me.
@Maeel: he means you're forcing point-blank ranges for semiautomatic weapons, or you're stacking recoil comp on weapons that don't need it to get extra dice.
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 05:30 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 01:00 PM)
that would be a SA longarm weapon with stock, tripod and heavy barrel at point blank range. Sounds like a glass cannon...
Presumably, recoil compensation for most things is now a dice pool bonus and you're now giving a recoil bonus to suppressors.
The Barrett Model 121 comes stock with a suppressor, a bipod, and a smartgun system.
Keep the suppressor. (1 recoil compensation)
Get rid of the bipod in favor of an auto-adjusting weight. (2 recoil compensation)
Put a shock pad on the weapon. (1 recoil compensation)
Add electronic firing. (1 recoil compensation)
Make it a heavy barrel. (1 recoil compensation)
Add recoil compensation as normal for strength. (so now strength is adding to dice pools for attacks)
5 Longarms
9 Agility
6 Strength
Reflex Recorder
Smartgun
Specialization
Tacnet (+3)
Synch Genetech
7 points of recoil compensation
Total dice pool? 31 dice on a 9P -4AP weapon BEFORE ammunition. Call shot with 27 dice left. Total: 22P -4AP + Ammunition.
Beyond that, since high strength values are now adding to attack rolls for ranged attacks, that widens the gap between melee and ranged combat.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 05:31 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 12:20 PM)
You still broke my heart.
But...eh, the long range stuff isn't as bad. I can't get over the cascade at short. It's akin to my players literally taking 30 dice and throwing them at me.
@Maeel: he means you're forcing point-blank ranges for semiautomatic weapons, or you're stacking recoil comp on weapons that don't need it to get extra dice.
But...eh, the long range stuff isn't as bad. I can't get over the cascade at short. It's akin to my players literally taking 30 dice and throwing them at me.
@Maeel: he means you're forcing point-blank ranges for semiautomatic weapons, or you're stacking recoil comp on weapons that don't need it to get extra dice.
actually i changed some of the recoil mods so that they dont provide recoil compensation but extra dice instead.
now i have come up with an alternate idea,brb...
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 05:33 PM
… We know. That's the point. You turned recoil *compensators* into generic dice-adders; more smartlinks.
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 05:40 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 12:44 PM)
The real problem is that what the difference between a 3 skill and a 7 skill is not correctly reflected in the dicepools and bell curve.
Perhaps we need a max hits = skill thing, or some other mechanic to imprve the diff between skill stats
Perhaps we need a max hits = skill thing, or some other mechanic to imprve the diff between skill stats
It's a poor rule, in my opinion, for combat tests. For the most part it will cause combat to become excessively lethal or make it excessively difficult to even shoot someone. Rather, combat becomes even more one sided unless weapon skills roughly match dodge skills and the pool isn't so large that you're guaranteed to get your cap every time.
Posted by: Kruger Aug 26 2010, 05:41 PM
Right off the bat, you know that any modern combat system that requires a dodge mechanic is broken, heh. You don't dodge incoming fire. You just try and make sure that the other guy has an even harder time hitting you than he would normally.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 05:42 PM
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 26 2010, 12:30 PM)
Presumably, recoil compensation for most things is now a dice pool bonus and you're now giving a recoil bonus to suppressors.
The Barrett Model 121 comes stock with a suppressor, a bipod, and a smartgun system.
Keep the suppressor. (1 recoil compensation)
Get rid of the bipod in favor of an auto-adjusting weight. (2 recoil compensation)
Put a shock pad on the weapon. (1 recoil compensation)
Add electronic firing. (1 recoil compensation)
Make it a heavy barrel. (1 recoil compensation)
Add recoil compensation as normal for strength. (so now strength is adding to dice pools for attacks)
5 Longarms
9 Agility
6 Strength
Reflex Recorder
Smartgun
Specialization
Tacnet (+3)
Synch Genetech
7 points of recoil compensation
Total dice pool? 31 dice on a 9P -4AP weapon BEFORE ammunition. Call shot with 27 dice left. Total: 22P -4AP + Ammunition.
Beyond that, since high strength values are now adding to attack rolls for ranged attacks, that widens the gap between melee and ranged combat.
The Barrett Model 121 comes stock with a suppressor, a bipod, and a smartgun system.
Keep the suppressor. (1 recoil compensation)
Get rid of the bipod in favor of an auto-adjusting weight. (2 recoil compensation)
Put a shock pad on the weapon. (1 recoil compensation)
Add electronic firing. (1 recoil compensation)
Make it a heavy barrel. (1 recoil compensation)
Add recoil compensation as normal for strength. (so now strength is adding to dice pools for attacks)
5 Longarms
9 Agility
6 Strength
Reflex Recorder
Smartgun
Specialization
Tacnet (+3)
Synch Genetech
7 points of recoil compensation
Total dice pool? 31 dice on a 9P -4AP weapon BEFORE ammunition. Call shot with 27 dice left. Total: 22P -4AP + Ammunition.
Beyond that, since high strength values are now adding to attack rolls for ranged attacks, that widens the gap between melee and ranged combat.
nope 1 point recoil compensation is not + 1 dice. i changed some recoil mods from providing recoil compensation to providing dice, the idea is that in IRL sniper rifles almost always have bipods, and they dont have it for recoil compensation
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 05:45 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 12:33 PM)
… We know. That's the point. You turned recoil *compensators* into generic dice-adders; more smartlinks.
You turned recoil *compensators* into generic dice-adders; more smartlinks.only some of them and i always explained why....
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 05:53 PM
So the solution is to make them even more sniper-y? In my games, you have to fire guns properly. AR in one hand has a penalty (optional rule in Arsenal); sniper rifle unbraced has a penalty (house rule by extension); heavy weapons unbraced causes Stun damage (unless you're huge; optional rule in Arsenal). I think this is a better and more rules-consistent way of addressing your very valid point.
I know you explained why, but the issue still stands. I'm saying that explanation isn't good enough for making *reactive*, penalty-limiting mods into *proactive*, DP-buffing mods.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 05:54 PM
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 06:41 PM)
Right off the bat, you know that any modern combat system that requires a dodge mechanic is broken, heh. You don't dodge incoming fire. You just try and make sure that the other guy has an even harder time hitting you than he would normally.
There should be evasive maneuvers perhaps.
A true bad-ass could in melee/unarmed range do horrible things to someone with a gun, especially one not trained in melee/unarmed as well.
The Dodge skill doesn't really make sense in dealing with firearms. But there you have it.
Evasive Maneuvers -2 dp
Diving for Cover: Reaction+appropriate athletics roll opposed their reaction+firearms skill net hit = you get the cover available (partial, full, none if you're in the middle of an empty room)
Gymnastics Dodging: net hits -DP, Max = Gymnastics Rating
Full Defense: -1 DP per IP given up for evasive maneuvers. (You move fast, you're hard to track)
So lets say I'm a Street Sam with 3ip, facing a room full of ganger death.
I go evasive maneuvers, I go full defense and dedicate 2 of my 3 IP for evading. Anyone trying to hit me has a -4DP
Either I'm in heavy armor and my plan is to take the hits and shoot back, or I'm planning on going first, and killing the lot of them before they get to shoot at me.
That seems fair
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 06:03 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 01:42 PM)
nope 1 point recoil compensation is not + 1 dice. i changed some recoil mods from providing recoil compensation to providing dice, the idea is that in IRL sniper rifles almost always have bipods, and they dont have it for recoil compensation
Yes, yes it is according to what you wrote, except for one recoil compensator.
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM)
Heavy barrel: first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation they offer one additional dice.
1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM)
Foregrip: A foregrip helps holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.
1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM)
Bipod: When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.
2 recoil compensation now equals +2 dice
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM)
Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.
6 recoil compensation now equals +3 dice
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM)
Stock: a rigid or employed folding stock stabilizes the weapon against the shooter shoulder, it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.
1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM)
Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation.
0 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice
--
Beyond that, each attack in the combat turn automatically adds a cumulative -1 dice pool recoil modifier. Either normal recoil compensation applies and all the other modifications that affect that still affect that, or you have a situation where the dual-wielding gunfu phys adept with 4 IPs is eating a -8 recoil modifier on each gun for a -16 for the last pair of shots. Regardless, from your list of recoil compensators that give bonus dice instead, I can +4 dice without using a bipod.
But lets look at a 3agi 3pistol ganger that's hopped up on some drugs that give him an extra initiative pass. He's thinking he's badass and is gunfuing it up. His first attack is at 1 dice / 1 dice (-1 recoil on each weapon plus -2 from using an off-hand weapon since he isn't ambidextrous). He could fire 6 more shots and none of them have a chance in hell of hitting. Let's say the same ganger isn't dual wielding. His first attack will be at 5 dice, and his last attack at 2 dice.
You've tried to make full auto more useful and in turn significantly hurt other methods of firearm combat.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 06:04 PM
ok new try:
CODE
Firing modes:
SS: remains the same
SA: remains the same
BF: short bursts increase the base damage of a weapon by 50% (multiply base damage by 1.5 round up)
long bursts: removed
Full auto: firing a weapon in full auto is a complex action and uses up to 40 rounds, every 3 rounds fired equal +1DV. Up to 4 targets can be engaged at the same time if they are within 1 meter of each other, but the successes of the test have to be split up evenly among the targets(round down). A full burst generates a recoil of -3 multiplied by range modifier.
Recoil compensation applies.
Suppressive Fire: remains almost the same except that 40 rounds are used and an area of up to 40 meters width and 2 meters height is covered. The result of the number of bullets divided by the meters width is the threshold for the dodge test. Any successes generated by the attacker increase the DV by 1 per two net hits.
Range modifier table:
short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long : -3W6
extreme : -4W6
Recoilmods:
The following recoil modifications and accessories have changed.
Heavy barrel: first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation the offer one additional dice.
Sniper rifles already have heavy barrels installed by default and do not get additional benefits.
Foregrip: A foregrip helps holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.
Bipod: When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.
Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.
Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation
Maximum Fire Rate: A normal weapon cannot fire more than 40 rounds per Combat turn.
SS: remains the same
SA: remains the same
BF: short bursts increase the base damage of a weapon by 50% (multiply base damage by 1.5 round up)
long bursts: removed
Full auto: firing a weapon in full auto is a complex action and uses up to 40 rounds, every 3 rounds fired equal +1DV. Up to 4 targets can be engaged at the same time if they are within 1 meter of each other, but the successes of the test have to be split up evenly among the targets(round down). A full burst generates a recoil of -3 multiplied by range modifier.
Recoil compensation applies.
Suppressive Fire: remains almost the same except that 40 rounds are used and an area of up to 40 meters width and 2 meters height is covered. The result of the number of bullets divided by the meters width is the threshold for the dodge test. Any successes generated by the attacker increase the DV by 1 per two net hits.
Range modifier table:
short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long : -3W6
extreme : -4W6
Recoilmods:
The following recoil modifications and accessories have changed.
Heavy barrel: first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation the offer one additional dice.
Sniper rifles already have heavy barrels installed by default and do not get additional benefits.
Foregrip: A foregrip helps holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.
Bipod: When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.
Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.
Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation
Maximum Fire Rate: A normal weapon cannot fire more than 40 rounds per Combat turn.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 06:11 PM
Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G17/G18.
I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 06:14 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 07:11 PM)
Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G22/G23.
I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help.
Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G22/G23.I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help.
Technically Machine pistols are not bigger than heavy pistols
so they don't get the -3As for SMG's. The Masad uses a stock on their Uzis when they're trying to actually be able to hit people
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 06:16 PM
It also further forces ranges to short.
A 40 round full auto gives:
3 recoil at short
6 at medium
9 at long
12 at extreme.
All right.
So our average joe with 6 dice now has 3 dice to fire at short with a +13DV with an unmodified rifle, and zero dice with a SMG (which is built for close-quarters combat).
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 06:18 PM
sabs, SR4A p311 says that Machine Pistols are bigger than Heavy Pistols, which are bigger than Light Pistols.
I'm not saying a stock isn't a good idea, which is why they provide RC.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 06:22 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 01:16 PM)
It also further forces ranges to short.
A 40 round full auto gives:
3 recoil at short
6 at medium
9 at long
12 at extreme.
All right.
So our average joe with 6 dice now has 3 dice to fire at short with a +13DV with an unmodified rifle, and zero dice with a SMG (which is built for close-quarters combat).
A 40 round full auto gives:
3 recoil at short
6 at medium
9 at long
12 at extreme.
All right.
So our average joe with 6 dice now has 3 dice to fire at short with a +13DV with an unmodified rifle, and zero dice with a SMG (which is built for close-quarters combat).
Is that a "yes thats better??"
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 06:24 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 01:11 PM)
Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G17/G18.
I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help.
Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G17/G18.I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help.
wuff, i know, wuff
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 06:40 PM
i removed the stock section, so is everybody happy now?
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 06:41 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 07:22 PM)
Is that a "yes thats better??"
It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.
Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 06:53 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 07:41 PM)
It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.
Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.
Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.
What he drops his current assault rifle and picks up his second one slung over the other shoulder and fires another 40 bullets.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 06:53 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 01:41 PM)
It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.
Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.
Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.
well thats actually intentional, plus the sammie could change clip, throw a grenade, maneuver, whatever.....
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 06:59 PM
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 07:53 PM)
well thats actually intentional, plus the sammie could change clip, throw a grenade, maneuver, whatever.....
Except if he's got 3 IP's, he spends a Simple to reload and now has the rest of that pass and the next to twiddle his thumbs. Very quickly, as he's fast.
I like the turn bullet cap, but I'd say if you want to keep it then I'd make the full auto take the entire Combat Turn. That leaves the focus on short bursts unless he's got four guys or a heavily armored mook to drop.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 07:01 PM
If Full Auto took a full round, I'd be okay with it being overpowered just a little.
Of course, this means Lonestar can use full auto. Ouch.
Cover is your friend.
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 07:08 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 03:01 PM)
If Full Auto took a full round, I'd be okay with it being overpowered just a little.
I'm not. It makes extra IPs fairly pointless for the gunner.
Posted by: maeel Aug 26 2010, 07:08 PM
See the original idea i had, was to limit all actions to two simple action per action phase or one complex action per combat turn, that would also limit those pesky mages...
so, yeah with pleasure!
on the other hand, if your AK features a drum, you use 2IPs for 2 20 round full bursts doing 12DV each...
Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 26 2010, 07:17 PM
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 26 2010, 08:08 PM)
I'm not. It makes extra IPs fairly pointless for the gunner.
Otherwise he has the capability of firing 120 rounds downrange in three seconds, which I don't think even an HVAR is capable of.
Posted by: sabs Aug 26 2010, 07:19 PM
Nah.
The Extra IP gunner doesn't full auto.
he does 4 short bursts.
Which do you prefer:
1 full turn action at skill+attrb+20/range+range+mods?
call it 36 some odd dice at DV 6?
effictive dv is going to be 12 - 3 or 4. So dv of 14 roughly.
or, 4 actions
skill+attrb+3/range+range+mods
call it 20 dice at dv 9?
effective dv being ~2 or 3 + 9 so 11 or 12.
If you're willing to take the dicepool modifiers for doing two burst fires a round.
You could be throwing 8 dv 9 attacks a round,c ompaerd to the one dv ~14
Only sadness is.. your 5 agility 3 dodge face is gonna die.
Heck, my Troll monstrosity might actually die
6 agility+5 gymnastics+1 skill recorder+1 neo-eop+1synthcardium I'm only throwing together 15 dice or so for dodging.
He's got 12 net hits, I have 5, I drop him down to 13dv. Now, I have 18 points of armor, so it's all stun. (thank god)
18 armor + 9 body + 3 from bonelacing. 30 dice to soak, I soak 10, so I take 3dv. My platetelet factory turns those 3dv into 2dv and my trauma dampener turns that into 1dv. Go go munchkin Troll.
But that's a troll with orthoskin, bone lacing, trauma dampeners, platelet factory, form fitting full body armor, a chameleon suit on top of that, gel packs and a full set of PPP gear.
Posted by: StealthSigma Aug 26 2010, 08:40 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 03:19 PM)
Heck, my Troll monstrosity might actually die
The reason god invented the Barrett Model 121 and APDS ammo.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2010, 08:52 PM
Um. Platelet Factories only apply to Physical damage, and Trauma Damper is applied before Platelet Factories anyway.
Posted by: maeel Sep 8 2010, 02:13 PM
Hey guys, i am back, so i have been thinking a lot about the arguments i heard over my last proposal, so i have come up with this:
CODE
COMPLEX ACTIONS
A Complex Action requires concentration and/or finesse and subsequently time.
Only one Complex Action is possible per Combat turn. A character who takes a Complex Action has to take it in his first initiative pass and cannot take any Simple Action till the next Initiative Pass. He may take mental free actions though.
Firing modes:
SS: remains the same
SA: remains the same
BF: short bursts increase the base damage of a weapon by 50% (multiply base damage by 1.5 round up)
long bursts: removed
Full auto: firing a weapon in full auto is a complex action and uses up to 40 rounds, every 10 rounds fired equal a bonus score of +1 minus the unmodified range modifier. Up to 4 targets can be engaged at the same time if they are within 1 meter of each other, but the successes of the test have to be split up evenly among the targets(round down). A full burst generates a recoil of -1 per 10 rounds.
The bonus score acts as a multiplier for the skill. The recoil is subtracted from the entire dice pool as usual.
A Complex Action requires concentration and/or finesse and subsequently time.
Only one Complex Action is possible per Combat turn. A character who takes a Complex Action has to take it in his first initiative pass and cannot take any Simple Action till the next Initiative Pass. He may take mental free actions though.
Firing modes:
SS: remains the same
SA: remains the same
BF: short bursts increase the base damage of a weapon by 50% (multiply base damage by 1.5 round up)
long bursts: removed
Full auto: firing a weapon in full auto is a complex action and uses up to 40 rounds, every 10 rounds fired equal a bonus score of +1 minus the unmodified range modifier. Up to 4 targets can be engaged at the same time if they are within 1 meter of each other, but the successes of the test have to be split up evenly among the targets(round down). A full burst generates a recoil of -1 per 10 rounds.
The bonus score acts as a multiplier for the skill. The recoil is subtracted from the entire dice pool as usual.
So what do you think of this?
Posted by: sabs Sep 8 2010, 02:17 PM
Other than you just completely destroyed all melee characters?
Posted by: maeel Sep 8 2010, 02:31 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 8 2010, 09:17 AM)
Other than you just completely destroyed all melee characters?
I assume you say that because melee is a complex action, well i would turn it into a simple action, that would make it more realistic.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 02:50 PM
I wouldn't say 'realistic' when describing anything. Supposedly, Melee is a complex action because it's slower than pulling a trigger, and because a single Melee attack consists of more than 'a punch'.
Posted by: maeel Sep 8 2010, 03:01 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 8 2010, 09:50 AM)
I wouldn't say 'realistic' when describing anything. Supposedly, Melee is a complex action because it's slower than pulling a trigger, and because a single Melee attack consists of more than 'a punch'.
Supposedly, Melee is a complex action because it's slower than pulling a trigger, and because a single Melee attack consists of more than 'a punch'.ok, realistic was a ill term. its ok that melee is a complex action in order to steamline the process, however what i suggested gives melee character an edge.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 03:03 PM
Yup, that's the way to describe it. I'm not sure what sabs meant, though, so vague.
Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 8 2010, 03:12 PM
I believe what the issue may be is that you're saying that a melee character can only make one melee attack, and then spends the next 1-2 initiative passes with his thumb up his keister.
I could have read that wrong, but that was the gist I got from the rule.
Posted by: maeel Sep 8 2010, 03:22 PM
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 8 2010, 10:12 AM)
I believe what the issue may be is that you're saying that a melee character can only make one melee attack, and then spends the next 1-2 initiative passes with his thumb up his keister.
I could have read that wrong, but that was the gist I got from the rule.
I could have read that wrong, but that was the gist I got from the rule.
Well yeah thats why i suggested to make melee a simple action, as an alternative full auto could be an exclusive complex action (3rd edition iirc) that would take the entire combat turn, while normal complex action remain the way they are.
Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 8 2010, 03:23 PM
In which case things may be workable, though that caveat isn't in your ruleset.
Posted by: maeel Sep 8 2010, 03:31 PM
which solution do like more, the exclusive complex action variant, or the "melee is a simple action" version?
Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 8 2010, 04:11 PM
The latter, I think. Melee characters will like being able to make more attacks in a round.
Posted by: sabs Sep 8 2010, 05:57 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 08:52 PM)
Um. Platelet Factories only apply to Physical damage, and Trauma Damper is applied before Platelet Factories anyway.
I double checked the reading on those.
Trauma Dampener turns 1 p into 1 s unless it's S then it removes 1 S entirely
Platelet Factory turns 2 damage into 1 damage. But it neither says physical or stun damage, it just says damage.
So with both, you should be able to turn 3 stun into 1 stun, or 3 P into 1p 1s
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 06:05 PM
You're not even trying, sabs.
QUOTE
Platelet Factories: Platelet factories increase the body’s ability to handle Physical damage by accelerating the production of platelets within bone marrow, thus lessening the trauma from large wounds and quickly stopping bleeding. Any time the user suffers 2 or more points of damage, the damage is instantly reduced by one point.
3 Physical >(Trauma Damper)> 2 Phys + 1 Stun >(Platelets)> 1P/1S
3 Stun >(Trauma Damper)> 2 Stun
Note: Yes, Trauma Dampers and Platelet Factories are fish-shaped. >()>
Posted by: sabs Sep 8 2010, 06:11 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 8 2010, 06:05 PM)
You're not even trying, sabs.
3 Physical >(Trauma Damper)> 2 Phys + 1 Stun >(Platelets)> 1P/1S
3 Stun >(Trauma Damper)> 2 Stun
3 Physical >(Trauma Damper)> 2 Phys + 1 Stun >(Platelets)> 1P/1S
3 Stun >(Trauma Damper)> 2 Stun
to be fair, I read it at 3am this weekend, and didn't go back and check it before i posted it.
stupid stun damage, making my troll cry.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 06:12 PM
It's okay, have a fish. Besides, he wants a Pain Editor anyway.
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