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Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 1 2010, 05:55 AM

Say you are ordered to kidnap a dragon and inhabit it with one of your ally spirits.

How would you go about doing it?

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 1 2010, 05:58 AM

Aww, I missed you!

edit: It doesn't seem like there are any major rules complications for dragons, specifically. At least for the inhabitation itself. You'll have to drug them, most likely, unless you want them in the astral, Powerbolting you to death; something like laes should work, in massive doses. Then the vessel prep will have a negative modifier equal to the dragon's magic rating, so it won't be easy, by any stretch of the imagination.

As far as kidnapping one goes? Hrm. Find someone who really pissed this dragon off, kidnap them, shove a big pile of autoinjectors full of laes into the guy, then deliver him for dinner? Not a very high chance of success, but for this operation, no plan is going to have one^^

Posted by: Tanegar Sep 1 2010, 06:07 AM

Step 1: Break into a dragon's lair.
Step 2: Die horribly.

Posted by: Udoshi Sep 1 2010, 06:30 AM

Hey, regular dragons aren't so tough. If its a -great- dragon, you're screwed. Nongreats have no twist fate...

... and are actaully pretty weak against stun damage.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 1 2010, 06:40 AM

If the GM uses the succestion of dimishing dicepool by one for every test after the first, it is pretty much impossible to prepare a dragon as a living vessel.
You need 8 successes and your dicepool is slowered by 9 on avarage right of the bat.

Posted by: Medicineman Sep 1 2010, 07:27 AM

Good Luck even with the First Part !
Dragons(and I'm not talking great Dragons, I mean all Dragons) are supposed to be super genius and to have an extended Web of Informants.
Even just preparing the plan unnoticed is a task by itself, then executing the kidnapping
the Dragon ....they're usually accompanied by spirit and/or mundane Bodyguards,to have Wards and magical protection....
And after You've kidnapped him preventing him from sending for Help...
Than inhabing the Dragon
Than getting away with it, without any repercussions from the Dragon Community.....
I'm not saying that its impossible but just a monumental task

Hough!
Medicineman

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 1 2010, 11:27 AM

Still... the resulting entity would be very powerful.

Posted by: IKerensky Sep 1 2010, 11:41 AM

Vestrivan....

But he does it willingfully...

Posted by: Dumori Sep 1 2010, 11:49 AM

I'd make a one-twoedge char. Save up a shite load of karma and abuse the burn of a critical sucess rule. I'd use in on my planning roll my doing the plan rolls then making it a vessel roll you name it. Sure the rule say raising attribute may cost time but they don't say it has to. 5 karma per roll isn't to high to pay for it plus some rolls won't need the necessary +4 hits any how.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 1 2010, 03:08 PM

Very carefully.

Posted by: sabs Sep 1 2010, 03:15 PM

I carefully find out who the Johnson is, and what blackmail he holds over me. I keep recordings of all my meets with him.
I buy a rating 6 SiN, I build a whole new persona, use a specially modded commlink with all the defenses my hacker can put together.
I contact the Dragon I was hired to kidnap and inquire on his reward structure for information about plots against him. I also inquire how much he would pay to have this threat removed.
I destroy the sin and the commlink I used to contact said Dragon. I leave a dead drop system for the Dragon to dump information into. I use an Agent purchased by a brand new Rating 6 SiN, on a brand new commlink, using AR. If the Dragon doesn't get back to me in 24 hours. I move out of the country. (Preferably the continent)

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 1 2010, 03:25 PM

I'd put a bullet in the brainpan of the schlub 'ordering' me to do anything and sell his corpse to the organleggers.

The careful investment of 0.34 will net me greater returns then this flight of fancy.

How many times has it been said that ally spirits don't have that power? I think I've lost count.

Posted by: sabs Sep 1 2010, 03:27 PM

Your plan might be even safer than mine
I'll go with yours.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 1 2010, 03:28 PM

I like how you say 'one of your ally spirits', because why *wouldn't* you have more than one?

Posted by: Traul Sep 1 2010, 03:42 PM

I heard Mars is wonderful by this time of the year. No matter how badass dragons are, they can't follow you in space.

Posted by: Mikado Sep 1 2010, 03:53 PM

Ally spirits don't have what power? Inhabitation? I assure you they do. They start with Materialization or Possession, based on your tradition and can be designed with Inhabitation.

Edit: My signature seems appropriate to the task at hand...

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 1 2010, 04:00 PM

Ah, right. I've been shutting off my mind to this 'posession tradition' bullshit.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 1 2010, 04:01 PM

A great could, possibly. It'd only need to initiate once and raise its magic once from the base stated stats.

Posted by: Mikado Sep 1 2010, 04:15 PM

I'll agree with you there... Posession traditions tend to be way over-powered. At least as far as I have seen. The player of the ONE that has been allowed in our game has been ordered not to raise his casting/summoning magic over a 3. He plays an mystic adept.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 1 2010, 04:22 PM

So they have to stagnate their character?
Sounds like a ton of fun.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 1 2010, 04:29 PM

Better that than ruin the game for everyone, and he can advance as an adept. Not that advancement is necessary for fun, of course.

Posted by: Mikado Sep 1 2010, 04:49 PM

Who said he was stagnant? He can raise anything he wants... save for summoning skills and spell magic. Why does it seem like most everyone here is only interested in raw power for a character?

Just because being possessed by a force 6+ (adding 6+ to all physical attributes and 12 ItNW) is not unbalanced for the rest of the team... Right now he has trouble summoning and binding force 5's and the GM has to specifically throw in a mage on the opposition just to deal with it.
The real thing keeping him in check is not the GM but the player... He has done more to harm his character than the GM ever will.

Agreed

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Sep 1 2010, 05:38 PM

Mmmeh, possession traditions are not terribly overpowered like they used to be. Especially without channeling.

Now on kidnapping a dragon: Nigh impossible.

Kidnapping an egg or a juvenile is a better option if mama/papa dragon is already out of the picture.

Another option would be to level the dragon with an Ares Lazer and inhabiting the corpse. Use the Preserve spell to stave off decay.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 1 2010, 05:39 PM

He got better.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 1 2010, 05:39 PM

Or any spirit with regenerate, not sure if allies can get that power, but free spirits, and great form plant spirits can.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 1 2010, 05:41 PM

Possession had nothing to do with the original complaint of yours (Ally spirits don't have Inhabitation).

As you were told, Ally spirits can have Inhabitation OR Materialization OR Possession.

Please get off your high horse about magic being OP or spirits being OP or whatever beef you have with Magic in general. Yes we get it. ***YOU*** think magic and spirits are OP / stupid / gamebreaking / whatever.

Please stop rubbing our faces in your disdain for magic.


As for the OP...

Easiest way IMO: Wait until the Dragon uses Astral Projection (or give it reason to do so for a longer period of time). While he's out, put up some significantly strong magic defenses on the Astral (physical too btw). Then perform the ritual that will let your ally Inhabit the body. Magically actives that leave their bodies via Astral Projection are considered prepared vessels already.

You can see this because Shedim can steal a body of a mage who isn't home. They also state in the Ally section about magically actives being prepared vessels if they aren't home.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 1 2010, 05:43 PM

Edit: I've had a bit of time to reconsider what I said. So I'll amend.

Where the hell do you get off? You know nothing about me, nothing about my preferences for the game, and nothing about what the hell you are talking about. I don't have a problem with magic. I don't have a problem with ally spirits. I have a problem with you shooting your mouth off.



You mean to tell me that a Great Dragon isn't going to have a ward that a Force 20 spirit couldn't break when he goes for an astral walk? That assumption is bordering on deluded.

Posted by: sabs Sep 1 2010, 05:44 PM

Then the spirit comes home and beats the living tar out of your Ally Spirit

Just because you don't think Magic is OP doesn't give you the right to tell other people to shut up.
And if you don't think Magic is OP, it's because you're playing Magicians and not tech-characters.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 1 2010, 05:49 PM

Um… *where* does it say that 'out to lunch' Awakened living vessels are automagically 'prepared'?

What I see is that you have to complete an Enchanting + Magic (Vessel's Willpower, 1 day) test *with* a penalty of vessel's Essence or Magic (whichever is higher), and *then* Inhabitation takes 1 day per Force of the spirit after that, *and* it all has to happen in a Lodge of Force >= spirit's Force; if the vessel leaves that lodge, vessel and spirit die.

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Sep 1 2010, 06:24 PM

I didn't see Doc say anywhere that he hated magic or thought it it was overpowered. Patty just has some more than dubious history with D&D-like munchkining and template stacking, attempting to bend the rules to create horribly overpowered and horribly unrealistic scenarios with "rigger mages." There were lots of mistaken terms and confusing inhabitation for possession, as well as some dubious rulings on multiple ally spirits and doing things the game doesn't seem to imply that you can do or is at least extremely vague on the subject (As it is implied that nobody should ever do such a thing, and any GM that allows that level of munchkining should receive an APDS sniper shot to the dome).

That being said, I understand Doc's frustration at this topic.

Also, what do you mean "He got better?"

And inhabiting a dragon's body while he's away would never work. It takes days, and the dragon wouldn't be able to project for more than a day or so. Also he'd break the living shit out of your ward on the way back in. Failing that, he'd hire nasty nasty people to kill you before the ritual finishes.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 1 2010, 06:27 PM

You realize that there's only one magic attribute for Mystic Adepts right?

Even if they put 5 points worth towards adept powers they can still cast force 6 spells before taking physical drain (and as such can also (attempt to) summon force 6 spirits). They just get fewer dice. And as such, their number of hits isn't going to be much higher than their Magic dice pool anyway (eg. 3(6) magic for spells with 6 spellcasting gives you 9 dice. Average is 3 hits, therefore casting over a F3 spell isn't going to do you a whole lot, unless the effect is based on the force, and not the hits).

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 1 2010, 06:40 PM

The last Great Dragon I know that got nailed by an Ares laser was Alamais in Night's Pawn. Dowd made it fairly clear that Alamais died in that engagement after Church knocked his shield down (because he survived, har) but he was still around in...I want to say Ragnarock, I know it was one of the Tommy Talon novels.

Dunkie even left him the fruitcake with the note "Unlike you, I'm actually dead." Ever classy.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 1 2010, 06:42 PM

Counting the seconds until some quotes the FAQ for you

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Sep 1 2010, 06:47 PM

Wooooah, I never said anything about trying to inhabit or kill a Great Dragon. That's a terrible idea. The most terrible idea.

In an unrelated note: I need to read up on my SR novels.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 1 2010, 06:47 PM

I still don't see how people rationalize the old FAQ taking precedence over newer material.

(I know, I know - dead horses and whatnot, but still...)

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 1 2010, 07:07 PM

Based off this guy's threads? I'm making the assumption that's precisely who he's trying to posess/inhabit.

That and I saw 'Ares Laser' and thought about Church and the CAR-32 with microgrenades. And Stealth Bombers with lasers that apparently got retconned to orbital ones.

Posted by: Mikado Sep 1 2010, 07:19 PM

Old FAQ... new FAQ... whatever... someone already said it...

When I say what I am about to say understand that I played a mystic adept for years. My character pulled the team out of more crap than the rest of the team combined.
So, I do consider them to be overpowered. My group played with the FAQ rules regarding mystic adept magic even before the OLD FAQ came out because I agreed with my GM (hell, I was the one who brought it up) that it was overpowered compared to adepts or mages...
Now when I say overpowered... I speak only to our style of play... What you do in your game may make them vastly underpowered... to each his own.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 1 2010, 09:36 PM

Then let me add a few things *you* specifically posted that indicate otherwise...

1. How many times has it been said that ally spirits don't have that power? I think I've lost count.

2. Ah, right. I've been shutting off my mind to this 'posession tradition' bullshit.

Now, in your defense, I did conflate a couple of things... namely any jackwad that goes spouting their own mouth off using the above statements is typically derisive, & condescending and holds tightly to the belief that SR magic is OP no matter what.

Perhaps you aren't one of those who holds tightly to that belief (thus I should not have conflated the two things). If you aren't, I apologize. But your post I've quoted... enough commentary on that from me.




Funny thing that... I re-read the OP's post and amazingly enough, there not a single f'ing mention of a god damned Great Dragon. So again, get off your high horse. If you plan on riding my ass on technical details, I suggest you get your facts straight first (especially after your diatribe above).

Or perhaps I should make the claim of a strawman? You throwing one in here (dragon vice great, when it was clarified the question was Re: dragon, not great) and then deriding me over it is a classic example of one regardless of your subsequent backpedalling later in the thread.

But in the end it doesn't matter. I'll take my warning (if the mods feel I warrant one). SR is for all types of players, mage haters and mage lover alike.

The OP asked a question and I gave it the best answer I could. Did I quote all my sources? No because I do not have my books by my side at the very moment I answered initially. Can I? Yes, if the OP were curious where my statements derive from, they could PM me and I'd answer with the page refs once I had a chance to find them to support my claim.

I don't care if the OP is thought to be a munchkin or not. A question was asked and answered. The questioner's reputation (supposed or real) does not factor into my decision to answer a question posed.

If there is genuine interest in me backing up my answer with cites (since there is some disbelief later in the thread), I will post cites that support my answer. All it takes is someone to say so.

PS: SM has a line or two that states a mage's body is considered a prepared vessel for purposes of inhabitation. I'm sure folks can figure it out from there given that Dragons are all magicians.

Posted by: IcyCool Sep 1 2010, 09:54 PM

Would you mind posting up a page reference for these two items when you get back to your books?

And in case you were wondering why pattyhulez is getting such a warm (kill it with fire) reception, here is a listing of all of his/her innocent questions and commentary:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32530
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32564
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32547
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32540

There was also a post about "making the most munchkiny, rules-legal character possible" somewhere as well.

That's where the heat is coming from, in case you were confused.

That said, capturing a dragon to have it inhabited by an ally spirit seems like the kind of thing that is the culmination of an entire, higher powered, campaign.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 1 2010, 10:00 PM

Ally spirit creation is SM page 103 - step 2. Choose Form(s)

The astral projecting mage's body is a vessel is SM page 95

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 1 2010, 10:06 PM

This drug would actually not be that useful against a dragon. But they are much less deadly in astral. Having the equivalent of about 8 strength instead of 30-40. Still they would just powerbolt or stun bolt you to death as someone else said.

Just possessing a dragon an holding onto the body until the dragon's spirit dies would be most easily done buy using a powerful spirit, edge, and real world luck. They can't use twist of fate unless they are aware of the action and can see it. But if the dragons spirit is dead it would make sense that the dragon does not resist the inhabitation change and the result is almost always a true form spirit. True form would be pointless.

It seems that with inhabitation unlike possession the vessel must be prepared. So a few days to prepare the vessel, and a few days to inhabit.

Page 95 street magic
So really it would be relatively easy to take over and permanently steal the body of an astrally projecting dragon with a possession spirit ally but it would be much harder to inhabit them.

If a comatose dragon still resits with its full intuition+willpower then it would then be possible inhabit them for a flesh form or hybrid form spirit/dragon.

This does not mean getting to the dragon and kidnapping them would be at all easy of course.

Posted by: IcyCool Sep 1 2010, 10:59 PM

I won't be back to my books for at least a couple of hours, so I'm curious. Can Ally spirits get Possession? I know they can get Materialization and Inhabitation.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 1 2010, 11:01 PM

It is in the errata. In the book it is just not mentioned but really it makes sense that they can be possession.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 1 2010, 11:05 PM

It's also in the newer copies of the book. I have the second printing, and it's listed in mine.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 1 2010, 11:38 PM

Y'know what - Nah, I'm not gonna rise to this. Keep your backhanded non-apology. You think what you want. You'll have your opinion, I'll have mine.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 2 2010, 07:13 AM

You mean the one that contradicts what's written in the book?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 2 2010, 07:15 AM

It's 'the' FAQ; there's only the one. No need for specification.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 2 2010, 07:18 AM

Yeas that one(like there's more then one), thats why there's a big smiley in the end.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 3 2010, 12:14 PM

Thank you.

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 02:31 PM

All of you have no imagination.

To successfully enchant a Great Dragon, all you need is a team of a few hundred mages and/or ally spirits working together in a teamwork/extended test.

A team of a few hundred high-force ally spirits (say force 20 and above) would have no trouble scoring the required hits in order to enchant a great dragon regardless of how powerful his essence/magic is.

Or a team of a few hundred mages burning one point of edge each.

No problemo, chummers.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 3 2010, 02:34 PM

I know you're joking, but for old time's sake: it doesn't work that way.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 02:34 PM

Look at that. A Great Dragon after all. Who would have thought.

Gosh, I never saw that coming.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 3 2010, 02:35 PM

*And* they're rude, Doc Chase. Hehe.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 02:37 PM

No, I'm not bitter.

Okay, well maybe a little.

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 02:41 PM

And just to show that I am a rules-abiding munchkin..

SM did say "The body of a magician or mystic adept is considered a
prepared vessel for any spirit he conjures, no special preparation
needed."

However in this scenario, it is not the dragon who is conjuring the spirit for his own body. It is an outside party, namely my gang, who is attempting to conjure up a spirit for the dragon's body. Thus special preparation is needed.

SM also said, "Likewise, an astrally projecting character’s
empty body counts as an available vessel, whether it has been
specially prepared or not."

Yeah, that might work. Catching a dragon while he is astral projecting. However, the problem is, I want my ally spirits to inhabit the body with the dragon's body via the true form. That way, my ally spirit will be able to gain all the powers and abilities of the dragons then.

If you inhabit a dragon's body while he is astral projecting, it might be impossible for the spirit to fully gain the dragon's powers.

Now of course all of you might be wondering why I am crazy enough to want to inhabit a dragon's body..

Actually, I want to inhabit a minimum of 5 Great Dragons and another minimum of 100 normal Dragons. Can the munchkins see where I am going with this? LOL..

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 02:42 PM

No i m not joking and it does work that way.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 02:43 PM

I'll bite - what kind of gang has 'a few hundred Force 20 ally spirits' or 'a few hundred mages burning Edge' and being able to inhabit the majority of dracoform species on the planet without getting found out / nailed by a THOR shot?

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 02:43 PM

it is 5 Great Dragons and 100 normal Dragons.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 3 2010, 02:45 PM

1. Get the Travelocity garden gnome
2. take a mould of his hat
3. cast a Tungsten hat in the mould
4. get a real gnome
5. wrap his feet in copper wire
6. put tungsten hat on gnome
7. get a railgun

Can you see my plan for inhabiting a dragon?

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 02:46 PM

Some triad gang / magical group whose group members have voluntarily magically bind themselves to the group via magical oaths and whose thoughts are constantly monitored by the head honcho's ally spirits (of which there are a few thousand)..

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 3 2010, 02:47 PM

I suppose you could inhabit the vacant body until the dragon expires (because he was astral too long). ;D

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 02:51 PM

That's not doing anything for the validity of the thread, though it makes the sanctimonious bullcrap I had to wade through earlier more ridiculous by comparison.

Realistically, there's just no way. One Great Dragon leveled Tehran, and the lot of them have rules in place so they can tussle without destroying the planet. The only folks I know of who would have the resources to try something this stupid would be Aztlan, but I don't think they'd catch 105 dracoforms in astral long enough to try this, especially if they started trying it on a couple of Amazonian ones first. Once the warning's out, S-K makes a motion in the Court, NeoNET backs it, anyone who has a dragon as a shareholder votes yea, and the world declares war on Aztlan.

Bovine intervention (seriously, for this I would paint the tungsten rods mottled black and white and install a subroutine that broadcast a moo every time the sat fired) levels major Aztechnology holdings and they get stuck in a pincer from the UCAS/CAS/NAN/Tir from the north, Amazonia from the south, and the assorted Corporate forces from wherever they want to roll in.

Congratulations, I suppose - you've created justification for wiping a AAA off the map.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 3 2010, 02:54 PM

So the head honcho goes adventuring every day for how many centuries to get the tens of thousands of karma needed to summon his ally spirits....oh wait, that is the topic of the other thread where everyone disagrees with you.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 03:00 PM

Level grinding in Africa. Asamundo won't wipe itself off the map, after all.

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 03:06 PM

To get the tens and thousands of karma points, there are the drain karma and endowment powers.

It is not neccessary to capture all 5 Great Dragons and 100 normal dragons all at once.

First, you capture/inhabit one normal Dragon. Then another one. Then another one

Sooner or later, you would get 50 normal dragons inhabited by your ally spirits. Once that happens, even a great dragon will easily fally against 50 normal dragons.

That is how you build an empire. One dragon at a time.hehehe..

And oh, did I ever tell you, the head honcho is a draco.

Imagine a draco commanding an army of inhabited dragons.

What sweet irony and poetic justice. Makes for great story-telling, I assure you. A slave who commands an army of gods.

Posted by: sabs Sep 3 2010, 03:22 PM

How did you get your ally spirit into his rating 12 staggered wards.
Passed the best physical security money can buy.
Passed the drakes.

Then how did you keep the Great Dragon unaware of what was happening long enough to get the ritual done.
Then how did you stop the Great Dragon from coming back to his body and eating your pathetic Ally spirit for breakfast.

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Sep 3 2010, 03:59 PM

Patty:

No.
No no no no no.

One more time: No.

The world does not work like that. The second you try to inhabit more than 1 GD you immediately get wiped off the face of the earth with a THOR shot. GDs are HORRIDLY WELL CONNECTED and know THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF ANCIENT MAGIC and have had basically since THE DAWN OF TIME to hone their skills. Some two-bit gang is not going to be able to summon force 20 spirits. Atzlan even is not going to be able to field an army of 100 mages with force 20 spirits, let alone "some triad gang". Your standard 400BP runner is a higher professional level than "Some triad gang." Nobody will have that much power save Immortal Elves and other dragons.

Even then, what's to stop Dunkie from using his whopping 12 CHA to summon 12 force 25 spirits of his own (Not to mention the legions of free spirits that probably owe him favors), and then invoking them? Nothing, that's what.

Munchkining in D&D and SR are completely different. D&D has so many dubious rules that work great separately but are easily broken, allowing for that sort of thing. In D&D, almost anything is possible, because it is that sort of world. A good portion of SR world is dependent on the fragile balance of power in the world, and anything that threatens that balance will very quickly find itself in a whole lot of hurt. Munchkining in SR should still be relatively plausible.

This is a bad topic.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 3 2010, 04:01 PM

Or even if you do, how do you keep him an all his ally spirits from telling all the other GD's in the world what you're up to, and prevent them from making you every imaginable kind of dead.

Posted by: IcyCool Sep 3 2010, 04:03 PM

Haven't you been listening? The answer is, magic.

That, and a ton of rule-breaking.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 04:05 PM

I seem to recall that to stop Bloodzillas, spirits were capped at the overcasting rate, weren't they?

If so, wouldn't that mean you'd need grade 4 initiates who have spent the 180 karma to raise magic from 6 to 10, plus the 70 karma to initiate, plus the 8*Force ally spirit?

And I seem to remember some sort of cap on ally spirit force as well...

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 04:27 PM

Well, when you're a toxic mage who's GM is letting him write up his own spirits' powers apparently, and apply them in ways not found in any book ( I mean, I missed the part where karma drain spirits can pass karma back to their mage, but w/e) I guess karma isn't much of an issue any more...

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 04:39 PM

karma drain spirits do not pass karma to their mages

karma drain spirits pass their karma drain powers to their mages

that's where the difference lie

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 04:40 PM

Please point out the book and page number on caps on ally spirits.. I am looking for such official limits myself...

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 04:41 PM

where do I break the rules pray tell?

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 04:42 PM

If D is a toxic mage, why not?

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 04:46 PM

You mean aside from where we discussed last time? Like letting your character be a toxic mage with self-designed spirit powers?

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 3 2010, 04:48 PM

But he isn't.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 04:49 PM

Unless someone else has their copies of the hymnal and SM on hand, you'll have to wait.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 3 2010, 04:51 PM

The limit is on Karma available, and no one has enough. The reverse Karma drain thing doesn't work they way he wants it to (as discussed in the other thread).

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 04:53 PM

Do me a solid: Ally spirit advancement. What's the karma cost to bind, and what's it to advance?

Is it *8 across the board, or am I thinking of something else?

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 04:54 PM

8 per force to build, 16 per force to advance.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 04:55 PM

What's the limits on building? I have a hard time believing that they can whip up a 20 force with a Magic of 6.

Posted by: sabs Sep 3 2010, 04:55 PM

BTW
Why do we humor his obviously fanciful munchkin rantings?

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 3 2010, 04:56 PM

I just don't recall karma drain being a power available to ally spirits of any tradition. I could be wrong, but I do remember looking and not seeing it.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 04:57 PM

Dude, I am bored. It is either this or I match invoices to containers for customs filing, and I already have to come in on Labor Day to, uh...labor.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 04:58 PM

I was with you until I saw this. Now I want to build a 400 BP character to kill your character in your own game (and I can). Capturing one normal dragon and having it inhabited is possible, albeit difficult, but surely you'd be found out after the second (if you survive the second), and definately before you have enough mojo to worry about a Great.

Although I don't like how so many people talk about how Greats are so powerful.. I mean they only have like 12 magic tops in the book. The best thing Shadowrun writers have done is not publish stats for the things they don't want killed - what doesn't have stats can't die, as D&D taught us. I can build a 400 BP character that can go toe to toe with a normal dragon, and arguably a Great as written in the books, but I'd not try it. It's much easier to find drakes and have them inhabited. A troll western drake is nearly the same size as a normal dragon, I'd imagine, or at least big enough for you to ride anyways.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 04:59 PM

This is true. What the person did was ascribe a GM-Fiat only power to standard Ally Spirits.

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 05:00 PM

For the last time..

it is possible to play a toxic mage who is "grey" and not "entirely black"

and spirit design rules in SM allow you to design the type of toxic spirits which you want for your own toxic traditions

i will start a toxic mage thread in the near future

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:01 PM

It's from the Toxic Mage thing where it's powers are "left to the individual gamemaster to adapt".


Of course, that would assume that Toxics are playable, and that the GM let him pick whatever powers he wants.

And I'm always bored. It's this or start drinking early^^

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 3 2010, 05:01 PM

Wrong

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 05:03 PM

I look forward to your contributions in my soon-to-appear toxic mage thread but not here please

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:03 PM

Actually, the stats in the book are the minimums for a Great: so Masaru or Arleesh maybe. The established ones are much, much higher. I think Celedyr had his stats published once, and his magic was something like 25. That's not even considering the really big boys like Lofwyr or Ghostwalker.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 05:05 PM

I thought I already had a thread on "grey" toxics. Also, toxics are playable because there's a sample tradition for them in Street Magic, I think. And lastly, I don't think you can give Free Spirit special Powers to standard summonable spirits for a tradition. If you can, I will be making all my own traditions from this day forth.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:07 PM

Actually, it's clear that the Toxic traditions presented are not meant as playable characters, something that incensed one of the writers in fact. He wanted to make them available as player choices and make them somewhat balanced. But they aren't and they aren't.

Posted by: sabs Sep 3 2010, 05:10 PM

Well, If you look at the Great Dragon stats from Earthdawn and do some extrapolations.

A Great Dragon should be sitting at something like:

somewhere between 24-36 magic (either a 12 or 18 regular magic score, and then another 12-18 initiate levels)
Sorcery skill of 12

Stats in the high teens, low 20's
Twist Fate Power
Adept powers, spells, blood magic rituals, contingency spells.
They have threading, which means they could have threaded their counter-spelling, or banishing. So that they're throwing around 40-50 dice for those pools.

Although if a player tried this in one of my games.. well he wouldn't even get this close, because he'd never in a million years have that many Ally Spirits doing weird inhabitation things.

Isn't this what the Invae tried to do? during the Universal Brotherhood Plot line?

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 05:10 PM

Yes but, as D&D taught us, if you publish stats then you have a guide to kill it. Have you ever heard of anyone killing the Lady of Pain? You can't because her stats don't exist. In a campaign I was in, I killed Vecna in 1 round, and I even missed with one of my attacks. The reason I was able to do that is because he has stats. Also, if you have Dieties and Demigods, go look at Imhotep. You don't even have to be level 20 to kill that diety.

My point being, the Great dragon stats that we have makes them killable. The dragon stats that we have makes them killable. The great dragons who have names and no stats remain unkillable, because their attributes lay in the realm of imagination - they don't exist.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 05:11 PM

*cough* That was me, yesterday. It's hard to say no when the boss drags you downstairs and puts a beer in your hand so the floor can toast the accomplishments over the past quarter.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 05:12 PM

Agreed. This is more outside the realm of a player and more inside the realm of a metaplot for a new Insect Hive.

Also, a player could conceivably get something like this by doing an Inhabitation of one of the drakkan or whatevers, the other dracoforms, from Running Wild.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 05:13 PM

Ner - are the posted stats for the dracoform, or the Great Dragon's stats themselves? I remember Survival of the Fittest flat out said that if the runners were going to try to go toe to toe with a great, they were gibbed with no rolls and no mercy. When I looked at the stats for these yesterday, I got the sense that they were for the non-great dracoform variety.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:15 PM

Oh I hear your point loud and clear, and I agree. Just pointing out that most of them do have stats of "unknown" =)

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 3 2010, 05:15 PM

No, there are defined spirits types which have this power, just none of them belong to any tradition I'm aware of. They all tend to be shadow spirits, ie sucubus, and the like.
It is possible to find one, then banish/bind it, use it to drain karma, then use a spirit with endowment to endow the sucubus with endowment, and have it give you karma drain to get the karma from it, but I'm not sure how well that would work out. The sucubus would have to never be allowed to accumulate enough karma by itself to upgrade itself, because if it did, it would kill you in ways so terrible the english language doesn't yet have the vocabulary to describe. You would really have to come up with something 'interesting' to placate it, so it doesn't goon you.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 3 2010, 05:16 PM

Its always past noon somewhere

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 3 2010, 05:18 PM

Of course you can, you just have to have a GM let you do it. So either they're a pushover, or have something 'special' planned for such an occasion.

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 05:20 PM

Not really Dragons of the sixth world have such stats

And whoever said that you have to go after one of the more established dragons?

You can always hunt a dragon who is still hibernating or who just woke up

Posted by: sabs Sep 3 2010, 05:20 PM

I always viewed Toxic spirits as the Horror Precursors of Shadowrun. The little weak horrors that awaken first.

As such, in my mind a Toxic Shaman would never be a PC.. because he would be insane/twisted long before he got very far in his tradition.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 05:22 PM

In my mind a PC would never be a Toxic because his team would turn him into DIMR for the cool million reward.

I'm sure the rest of the team would love toxics/blood mages on their team.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:24 PM

I have to say that I knew a GM that would have loved this stuff. I think I described him in the "GM Horror Stories" thread. By the end of the first night, I had killed a couple gods and was preparing to replace them. Of course, by "I had killed" I mean the suit of sentient armor that my character was trapped in and the GM was running had killed.

I enjoyed that night so much that I never was a player for him again...

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:24 PM

No, they don't. None of the Greats have stats in that book.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 3 2010, 05:25 PM

I don't really see a problem with someone playing a 'toxic' mage, and I've been in parties where the mage SHOULD have been toxic. Also, what would be wrong with someone who is an awaken nuclear physicist from having a 'nuclear' fire spirit, ie the one listed in the toxic section. Its possible to be entirely sane, and to associate with the forces of entropy. Its just that none of the toxic spirits I know have Karma drain, there are ways to access it, but none of them are been stated as being part of this 'plan'.

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 05:26 PM

SM Page 147

TOXIC SPIRIT QUICK DESIGN
In Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, gamemasters
are free to design their own toxic spirits as unique
entities, fleshing out their appearances, attributes,
and powers fitting the particular beliefs of the toxic
summoner. The simplest way to do this is to use
the stats of one of the ten basic spirit types as a
template and swap out attributes, abilities and
powers, replacing them for abilities with appropriate
flavor listed in this chapter. As toxic spirits
are diverse, gamemasters should not shrink from
modifying existing powers and rules when it fits
the flavor of the toxic spirit type in their games.
Here are a few examples:

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 05:27 PM

I'm not sure what you're asking. There are stats in 4th ed for Great dragons - baseline stats. And yeah, they're gibbed, but only because they're that much overclassed - although I think I could give one a run for its money if I tried hard enough. For the Named ones who lack stats, however, it's like trying to stick a knife in Africa. Africa doesn't have stats, so you can't kill Africa.


In all fairness, you're assuming you know he's a toxic/blood.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 05:28 PM

Thank you, my point is proved.

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 05:28 PM

Of course they will.. every single member of the team is a toxic/blood mage

Posted by: sabs Sep 3 2010, 05:29 PM

GAMEMASTERS

let me say it again

GAMEMASTERS

Neraph you damn Ninja


Not munchkin players trying to hoodwink some unsuspecting GM with stupidity.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:30 PM

I wouldn't really have a problem with it either, but the tradition as written in SM is not meant to be played (as a PC); it's almost entirely, "whatever the GM decides" for it's powers, etc.

If they want to build a playable tradition, that's another thing entirely. (though, a million nuyen is going to be awfully hard to pass up if a fellow player ever does it...)

Posted by: pattyhulez Sep 3 2010, 05:35 PM

Whoever says the GM is against the PCs on this one?

Hell, the GM can disallow anyone becoming anything else if he wants to, he can even disallow a player from playing a metahuman, a mage, a TM,etc

However, the fact that this particular ruling is in the books proves that it is canon.. which proves that this toxic mage scenario is as legit as any other ruling found in the books..

Or should I say.. it is a canon ruling not a house ruling and that is all that matters..

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:39 PM

The GM can allow you to be a Great Dragon if he wants - but the rules assume that he's aiming for a semblance of balance and sanity.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 3 2010, 05:43 PM

The spirits you wish to employ are not canon spirits. They would be the invention of the GM. As for if this against the GM or not, unless this intended to be a powergaming experience, they should have the common sense to kill you off in one of several thousand different ways.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 06:11 PM

Speaking of which, does anyone have a link for that April Fool's dragon-as-PC excerpt from a while back?

But yeah, if your GM is playing along with you on this, why do you need to ask us for help?

Also, if your GM is playing along with you on this, please stop calling it Shadowrun. There's so many houserules in it that it surely isn't an SR game, it's some other game using the SR mechanics.

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 3 2010, 06:15 PM

Dragonfun^^

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 06:15 PM

ShadowMunchkin.

Re: team knowing if the member is blood/toxic - In all honesty, if this was in one of my games I would probably drop a few hints to let them know. After all, this isn't a subtle undertaking.

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Sep 3 2010, 06:22 PM

It's also not as legit as any other scenario in the books, because it's drekking nonsense.

Let's recap:

You have 105 prime runner toxic mages, one of which is a Dragon. Each has a free spirit forumula for a force 20 ally spirit (Threshold 100, 1 day), which will cost 160 karma each. (How do you even get a force 20 spirit? Mana storms are at +14, and at that level magic is completely uncontrollable and incredibly dangerous to anybody in the area.)

Now you want to inhabit dragons with them. And 5 GDs at that. These are 105 of the oldest, most fell terrifying beasts in the world with magic, prowess and intelligence nigh unimaginable to Metahumans and you want to inhabit 105 of them? Baffling.

What is not cannon about your argument:
Toxic PCs (Material would have to be houseruled)
Force 20 spirits of any kind
Dragons being wusses and letting themselves be inhabited
Not getting THOR'd

Question: How could you possibly think, that as the single biggest threat to metahumanity to date, you would not be nuked from orbit?

Posted by: Mikado Sep 3 2010, 06:27 PM

Wow... talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
I remember saying something about this when you where going off on your ally spirit inhabiting the mage who summoned it so you could play a "free" spirit.
I do agree that the game pattyhulez is playing is no longer Shadowrun. I have no idea what to call it. But hey, if thats how you guys like to roll then so be it. Yes patty, you have the rules to back you up... there is nothing we can say against it. All I can say is have fun.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 06:30 PM

TBH, I feel sorry for the GM that lets this happen. This isn't even an enjoyable game at this point.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 06:32 PM

You know when Neraph is calling something absurd...

http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/download/previews/RC_03Characters_preview.pdf

Posted by: Mikado Sep 3 2010, 06:34 PM

For you and I maybe... But if Patty's group likes that sort of thing who knows...

Hell... I remember what a character I had in Rifts was like after 10 years of playing... I had to play him low key just so the GM didn't kill the rest of the party.... But everyone enjoyed themselves.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 06:35 PM

Ten years in the Simbieda Money Machine? Ech.

Stronger player than I. Not a lot of folks play Rifts out here anyway. Never got into a game.

Posted by: Mikado Sep 3 2010, 06:38 PM

Hey, I'll admit. I love the world... All of them... well most of them. Rifts, BtSN, Palladium fantasy... I just hate the system...

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 06:39 PM

Rifts can actually be a lot of fun; it's just incredibly demanding on the GM to provide any sort of balance to the party.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 06:40 PM

The fluff is kinda neat, but the mechanics were confusing as hell.

Maybe Patty's group should try Rifts out. Then they could all be dragons.

Posted by: Mikado Sep 3 2010, 06:41 PM

Dragons... forget that... OLD ONES!!!

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 3 2010, 06:58 PM

It can actually be very subtle if you do it right.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 07:00 PM

Sure. If you do it right. I did it once, a long time ago in 3E. Having a mage with a degree in Thaumaturgy from Miskatonic was a hoot.

The shadows cast by his fire spells all had tentacles at the flaming tips.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 3 2010, 07:04 PM

Damn I was stuck in a meeting at work so you beat me to it.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 4 2010, 04:08 AM

First off, there are degrees and multitudes between working within the wording for a specific power and... this. What this person preposes is some bizzar bastard child between what I had proposed (and, whether you like it or not, lies within the rules of the game) and extrapolating to the Nth degree.

Now, in all fairness, this (dragon-inhabiting) is entirely possible to actually pull off. My questions though are: 1) how many dragons are there in the world, and 2) who's going to play them like the creatures of power they actually should be?

Also, thank you Mooncrow for the link... and the backhanded compliment?

EDIT: Also, the character's ascention that I played out was basically the end of the campaign. We had one or two runs after that and called it. My character had accomplished his goals, and the rest of the team got to areas in their advancement that they were happy with and retired them as Infected generals in my character's army he was building.

And they faded into the Shadows...

Posted by: Mäx Sep 4 2010, 07:16 PM

If by "stats" you mean type,sex,color,metahuman form(s),primary lair(s) and name of the translator then yeas it has

Posted by: WyldKnight Sep 4 2010, 07:27 PM

I have yet to see the answer how to avoid being exploded by every military and their grandmother once they realize whats happening. You can barely, if even, hide one GD from going poof let alone about a hundred normal dragons.

Posted by: Mikado Sep 4 2010, 08:10 PM

Not to derail this thread more than I already have... But...

Degrees and multitudes... What you proposed and what patty proposed are both within the rules. Both require GM approval. I don't recall saying that they where not in the rules only that as a player it is not a valid choice without major GM permission and oversight.
I don't have a problem with what patty suggested, she only asked if it was possible within the rules. You do the same. My problem is when you pass it off to others as being acceptable creations without so much as a disclaimer stating that the rules are being used in a manner that requires GM approval. Standard character creation (for the most part) does not require GM supervision. What you state does.

When a player makes a standard character the GM only needs to look at the sheet after the player finishes to double check math/availability/power level. What you and patty suggest almost always require GM oversight from the start. I don't expect you to understand my point of view on this I just want to point out the differences in character creation from standard and "GM-approval" types.

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 4 2010, 10:40 PM

A force 20 ally spirit could probably kill most great dragons, alone. A spirit of this force is pretty much a deity. Why would you even bother having it inhabit a dragon? A materialization F20 spirit could appear wherever it wants on a whim, kill whatever it wants, do whatever it wants.(edit: i'd like to see a mage that can conjure such a spirit without dying. Even most great dragons couldn't conjure one.)

So, yeah, one is probably strong enough to possess or inhabit a great dragon. But why would it bother?

edit: inhabiting a non-great dragon would probably be somewhat of a step down for a spirit this mighty.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 5 2010, 12:48 AM

As most GD's have stats of 'plot', doing anything the GM wants is actually rather simple. They wouldn't even have to summon it, just ask some force 20 free spirit they met 4 on the last cycle, or in a deep meta plane one day to come and blow up X for them.

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 5 2010, 01:52 AM

All true. But if you use the recommended stats from the book, which are normal dragon type + 10, my statement is valid.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 5 2010, 02:19 AM

Closer to +5 (+3 to +5 to most stats, +10 to strength and body).

Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 5 2010, 03:18 AM

Ignoring the rules you are breaking and impossibility of what you are suggesting rules-wise for a moment, what exactly makes you think that the draconic community would just sit back and let you do this?

What you are proposing is the kind of thing that would make the Greats call a council meeting. And as I understand it, if you are the reason for a dragon council meeting, you are in very deep trouble.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 5 2010, 04:45 AM

What I proposed is basically for the ending of a campaign, and in my case it was within 3 runs of the end of the campaign. Or at least 1 run and 3 sessions, IIRC.

What she proposes looks to be the beginning of a campaign. And not once, but over a hundred times.

That's degrees and multitudes.



I can build one (400 BP character) that can summon a F28 with very little in-game prep. He can statistically survive it. Maybe. At least half the time I think.

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 5 2010, 04:54 AM

by all means, show us.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 5 2010, 04:55 AM

Given that it would require Magic 14, I too, would like to see this.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 5 2010, 05:01 AM

Easy. Nosferatu with Magic 5, Magic Pact with a F6 spirit, and (the in-game setup) drain 12 Essence and use Essence Drain to boost Magic by 6.

5 + 6 = 11 + 3 (1/day) = 14.

Overcast/Summon F28. 1/day. F22 the rest of the day.

To survive, have drain stats at 4 and take Increase spells for them to get ~ 6+ successes. That gives you a lot of drain dice.

And, just to reiterate, I can maybe survive it mostly some of the time. Oh, and I just realized that my drain value is 2x the spirit's successes. So I can survive it if he rolls poorly. Which is, again, why I said "He can statistically survive it. Maybe. At least half the time I think."

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 5 2010, 05:07 AM

If he has a body of 7+ he won't fall unconscious from an average result (neither side using Edge anywhere).

However, on average you'd never get any services out of the spirit either, as it'd still have 8 dice on you.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 5 2010, 05:09 AM

That's interesting, I've never read the infected magic rules closely before. Craziness.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 5 2010, 05:11 AM

Yes, but it is within the realm of possibility that I can actually roll well and he rolls poorly. A bad thing to bank on, but that's a go-for-broke thing. And hell, if you have to Jeet Kun Do like that, you may actually wish to go unconscious so the F28 rampages.

Posted by: Angelone Sep 5 2010, 12:07 PM

Rhonabwy had his stats published in Prime Runners way back when, he had Magic 25. I seem to remember the Sea Dragon (forget her name) stated up somewhere as well. Arleesh is stated up in Bottled Demon and is pretty weak, but at that point she'd only been active for about 10 months so was probably not at full strength. Not Sure about Celedyr, I'll do more digging.

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 5 2010, 03:01 PM

You will NEVER.

Let me repeat, NEVER.

Let me say it one more time to get the point across. NEVER

Be able to pull this off. You cannot get that many Ally spirits (I see we still want to try and break those rules). This scenario is moot since it is impossible.

Posted by: Thirty Second Artbomb Sep 5 2010, 03:59 PM

Hm. How would I inhabit a dragon? Well, the first trick is killing one that's big enough to live inside and hoping the body's still mostly in one piece afterward. ;)

Posted by: Angelone Sep 5 2010, 04:16 PM

Or you could have a dragon shaped house built.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 5 2010, 05:02 PM

Actually it is not impossible. You can have as many Ally Spirits as you want, at as high a Force as you can pay. The problem with this scenario is available karma and making sure no-one catches on.

Both of those are monumental tasks, however.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 5 2010, 06:27 PM

The karma is actually the easy part. If even a single attempt allows the spirit of the dragon to flee and warn anyone about what you are doing, the land mass you occupy will quickly heat up to about 20-30 thousands degrees, and begin to rapidly expand in a hemispherical configuration.

Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 5 2010, 06:57 PM

I wouldn't call the karma part easy relative to your latter point. Drain Karma is a fairly torturous power for the victims, and it seems like the amount of karma needed requires a massive amount of victims. If you Drain your victims to death, LS and KE will get pretty motivated to find you as the body count rises. If you don't, they and others will be motivated to find you as the assault count rises. If you don't and wipe their memories of the incident, people will STILL notice something wrong happening, as large amounts of people report sudden and unexplained aging, weakness, debilitation, internal injuries, et cetera. That will draw the attention of big players, including adult dragons as a bare minimum, and the super-super-super-intelligent greats could probably guess what you're planning almost immediately, when you probably haven't even made an attempt yet.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 5 2010, 07:05 PM

I'm probably thinking of Rhonabwy then.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 5 2010, 07:57 PM

Sucubi get to drain Karma by watching people have sex, and it causes no discomfort at all. Using this version of the power, its way easier to get away with then you might otherwise think. A force 20 spirit is about 160 karma just for the force, tack on another 40 to make it fairly flexable, and you're talking 200 each. A decent s&m club could earn you 30 a night with out too much effort. Trust me, Karma is the EASY part.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 5 2010, 07:57 PM

Sucubi get to drain Karma by watching people have sex, and it causes no discomfort at all. Using this version of the power, its way easier to get away with then you might otherwise think. A force 20 spirit is about 160 karma just for the force, tack on another 40 to make it fairly flexable, and you're talking 200 each. A decent s&m club could earn you 30 a night with out too much effort. Trust me, Karma is the EASY part.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 5 2010, 08:11 PM

Sounds like a pretty silly power, then. Karma for watching something? 30 a *night*? Banned.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 5 2010, 10:05 PM

Its in streetmagic. Best of all, they can watch multiple people at once. Have 500 people in an orgy pit... well, profit. Needless to say they also CAN and often DO participate in the act, but it is not a requirement.

Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 5 2010, 10:48 PM

It does seem to exhaust the victim somewhat quickly, though. Which doesn't exactly invalidate my point, although getting the karma without exposing yourself would indeed be easier then.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 5 2010, 11:18 PM

You mean someone passes out after the best climax of their life?

Quick someone call 911!!! Johny just banged the hottest chick on the planet for an hour straight and then passed out!!!

Do you even see anyone paying any attention to that kind of call for help at all? Cause that sort of thing seems kinda normal in a place where drug fueled sex romps are the norm..... Just saying.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Sep 6 2010, 02:28 AM

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 6 2010, 01:47 PM

I think i know.

Very, very, VERY carefully.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 6 2010, 03:10 PM

Ok, but succubi cannot get Ally Spirit, which invalidates your example. In fact, there's no way whatsoever for a Player to get access to any of the karma drain powers without GM fiat. It takes GM fiat to allow players to Call spirits with the drain themselves, and that still does not allow any access of the Power for the Caller themself.

Karma remains a problem.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 12:59 AM

Unless, of course, the Caller manages to negotiate a Pact with the Spirit so Called...
But still, GM Fiat... so yeah...

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 7 2010, 10:02 AM

Ah, this is where you are wrong. A succubi can be banished and then bound, or the PC can strike a bargin with it for the spirit pact. The succubi can then either use its Karma drain power, and then through the abuse of endowment allow the mage access to the power to get the Karma from it, or simply grant the mage the power, so that they can use it straight off. At which point because of the abuse of endowment, the mage could then allow his spirits the use of the power....

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 01:57 PM

That is splitting hairs. It is virtually impossible to accomplish such a task, no matter how much you try to shoehorn it into the rules.

It all requires the GM to approve this stuff anyway so....

Posted by: Dumori Sep 7 2010, 02:09 PM

Yeah but in SR GM approval is stated for every dice roll and for you to exist RAW so its a weak argument against the hypothetical.

Posted by: sabs Sep 7 2010, 02:42 PM

so what we're saying is..
If he GM is stupid.. it's doable.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 04:18 PM

Actually, only Great Form Task and Guardain spirits have Endowment, and only certain Free Spirits have Spirit Pacts. Again, it would take GM-fiat for either of those scenarios to work.

Posted by: sabs Sep 7 2010, 04:23 PM

And Toxic Spirits can be created by the Gm with any powers that they see fit. Which is of course, GM Fiat again. But they seem to keep on going back to open-ended GM rules for creating opponents for the players, and wanting to use those to create some monstrosity and call it "RAW no REALLY".

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 7 2010, 09:44 PM

Right.... I banish and bind a succubi, and then have another spirit who's greatform allows for endowment. Its really not that complicated.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:45 PM

A succubus. Sprits can Endow powers from *other* things?

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 09:49 PM

Which leads us right back to "virtually impossible" since no Shadowrun GM worth his salt would ever allow this!!!!

Good GM's = less crazy games.

Unless that is exactly what you are shooting for. If so, by all means, do it to it....

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 7 2010, 09:51 PM

No, it's more like the endowment spirit gives the sucubus endowment, and it gives that ability to you. Then you're endowment spirit gives you endowment, and you give karma drain to your army of minions to collect the karma for you. The only point of GM fiat required is for the succubus to enter the campaign in the first place.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:54 PM

Interesting. You'd think that Endowing Endowment wouldn't work. I agree that it does by the RAW, just offering an opinion.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 7 2010, 10:10 PM

Endowing Endowment is SR's Sarrukh.

Fortunately, I have been informed, that any given target can only be subject to one Endowment at a time.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 10:21 PM

That, and I would expect the total number of Endowed Powers to max out at the *original* Great Form's Magic rating (no army of minions). As if that was the biggest problem.

How easy is it to get 5 net hits on Invoking, anyway? Seems like a nontrivial component of this exercise.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 7 2010, 10:55 PM

Against a low force spirit, its far easier then a high force one.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 10:56 PM

Yes, but that succubi does not neccessarily have a Spirit Pact, much less the Power Pact in specific.


/agree. Stated in the Endowment Power.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 7 2010, 11:10 PM

Not needed, as when it is granted the endowment power, it can then grant Karma drain to others.


Yes, however this is one of those 'failings of the enligsh language' moments, as it can also mean each character can receive 1 power/spirit.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 7 2010, 11:34 PM

Endowment says

Exactly that. [Magic] number of people can receive 1 power, total each, at any given time.

So a force 6 spirit can give 6 people one of its powers (need not be the same) but additional spirits can only give more people powers.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 7 2010, 11:55 PM

I agree each spirit can only give each person one power, but the power "may" be read as each person can get multiple powers so long as each one is from a different spirit.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 8 2010, 12:21 AM

If there are multiple ways to interpret an ability, then you should choose the one that provides the least amount of craziness within the rules set...

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 8 2010, 03:35 AM

I try to go for the one that makes the most sense. The way the rule reads, there is a significant problem with it, in that if something endows endowment to a nonspirit, that nonspirit can then endow all of its abilities to something else.

Posted by: sabs Sep 8 2010, 12:52 PM

endowing endow is alot like endowing sapience.

It's weird and doesn't make alot of sense.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 8 2010, 01:06 PM

oh, but its 'magic' right? That's what everyone keeps telling me.

Posted by: sabs Sep 8 2010, 01:09 PM

Yeah yeah.. it's still weird.

Sapience and Endowment shouldn't be 'powers' they should be 'traits'

Posted by: darthmord Sep 8 2010, 01:30 PM

Ghostwalker has published stats in the Denver missions campaign. He's also got a bunch of spells on him all the time. Something like Force 24 or so. In the end, the spells about double his normal stats which iirc are the GD stats listed in the BBB plus a bonus.

He's fairly tough as written. Killable? Yes but you'd need a metric crapload (or ten) of firepower and preparation to pulll it off.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 8 2010, 01:34 PM

There is that partial gag ruleset from an old April Fools day for playing a full fledged dragon...

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 8 2010, 02:55 PM

I think the dragons from that joke section aren't all that bad really.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 03:45 PM

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 8 2010, 04:08 PM

They're more powerful than any of the other races, kinda get magic for free (eg. no need to be a "mage" you already are), and have some other options, but yes. Generally speaking they're pretty much in line with everything else that's been published: very strong, but also very BP heavy (less so than a free spirit, IIRC).

Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 04:12 PM

More than a free spirit.

A free spirit is 250 BP for F2, and depending on your reading of the rules (as I've pointed out and we've stalemated), possibly raising their Force raises all their other attributes. Maybe not, YMMV.

The cheapest dragon is 300 BP for stats higher than a troll's and a Magic of 6. Those stats are higher than many min-maxed characters will have at all, and even if a min-maxed elf gets a higher Agility than your dragon, the rest of your attributes will be significantly higher.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 8 2010, 04:14 PM

Yes, but you will have no skills, or spells when you're done making your character. You're effectively the draconic equivalent of an infant.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 04:17 PM

You still have 100 BP for skills, spells, and gear. That's more than enough.

Interestingly, those rules say that dragons use Shapechange for the (Human) Form trick. /shrug.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 8 2010, 04:23 PM

I'd love for those section to actually get completed. I'd like to see how it turns out and perhaps build NPC dragons (for future gaming sessions) to follow those rules.

Neraph, perhaps there was supposed to be a note for Shapechange that exempts Dragons from some of the limits so they can use it for taking on a metahuman form. Who knows...

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 8 2010, 04:43 PM

It's tricky, that few skillpoints. I made a drake that spent a scant 88 BP on skills, many of which were "1 point so I can operate." Highest was 4 (spellcasting). I had only 3 spells, and a bare...9 BP on gear (and that was after the Debt negative quality giving cash too).

A dragon would be even tighter.

Posted by: Angelone Sep 8 2010, 05:21 PM

Interesting, which one and where is it available?

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 8 2010, 05:28 PM

BP system penalizes you for taking lots of 1 point skills. I'm not trying to say you're doing it wrong, it's just that the system penalizes you for doing it this way.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 05:53 PM

I know - I feel tight when I have less than a hundred BP for skills and I have spellcasting. But it is certainly possible. You'd basically be a hatchling though.

Posted by: The Grue Master Sep 8 2010, 06:15 PM

Somewhere in this incoherence patty said something about a teamwork test to prepare the vessel. Since the cap on bonus dice from teamwork tests is the highest skill in the group, that won't really net you a huge bonus will it? My recollection is that there were something like 200 people involved...

I could be wrong.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 8 2010, 06:36 PM

Patty, why do you even bother asking questions here?

We're just going to tell you No.

It doesn't matter what the question is. You can't have it.

I have a question for you, though.

Is your character named "Aztlan"?



-karma

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 8 2010, 06:37 PM

I am well aware. However, I couldn't forego the 1 rank of Athletics, the 1 rank of Stealth, or the various other 1-ranks I had (hacking, computers, perception, blades), or I'd have had a character who didn't have the skills to perform his primary function.



Yeah, its possible, but you really have to prioritize and start out "young."

Posted by: darthmord Sep 8 2010, 07:18 PM

I believe it was the last Denver Missions episode. I remember doing a search for Ghostwalker in the PDF and it found him. I think it was the 2nd or 3rd instance of the search word. Should be in the first 1/3rd of the guide for that mission.

Edit:

Found it.

Page 15, from Done Deal SRM2-025

If a statline for Ghostwalker becomes
necessary, use the Western Dragon,
modified as a Great Dragon (SR4, p.297).
Assume that Ghostwalker has any unlisted
relevant skills at rating 5. Further assume
that he has Analyze Truth, Deflection,
Armor, and Astral Armor spells all quickened
at Force 24 with 24 hits.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 8 2010, 07:20 PM

How much "official" oversight does Missions have, though, as far as how canon the adventures are?



-karma

Posted by: Angelone Sep 8 2010, 08:58 PM

Ok, thanks. Seems weaker than I imagined him to be.

Posted by: Rand Sep 8 2010, 09:55 PM

OK, I just gotta. I am sure it has been done, but here it goes.....

Very carefully. (Bud-da-bump!)

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 8 2010, 10:36 PM

Lets do the time warp it again!

Very carefully.

(That makes four)

Posted by: darthmord Sep 9 2010, 04:28 AM

24 hits on the major defensive spells is a biggie. That goes on TOP of his existing protections as a Great Dragon. What that Missions module doesn't count is his horde of spirits. He also (from other sources) has free spirits working for him too.

Sure, just as written he's not exceptionally strong but the Missions module also doesn't really account for the rest of his power.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 9 2010, 04:40 AM

Yup. Imagine the non-Awakened Security he has too. Especially as "governer" of Denver.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 9 2010, 12:53 PM

You mean the military of every zone? Good old ZDF!

Yeah. Good times, there. Good times. Roll the dice, get a Wildcat, maybe a CAS Marine.

Posted by: sabs Sep 9 2010, 01:00 PM

I was looking over my Earthdawn Rulebooks.

Regular Dragons should have stats in the high teens and low 20's.
They should be 9th-12th rank initiates
Have access to pretty much every spell

It's more complicated than that, of course. But basically a regular dragon should be a tough challenge for a 6 person group of 15th Circle Adepts. And a Single Great Dragon is powerful enough that the Therans only ever killed one, and it cost them a couple of behemoths and several hundred high circle adepts.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 9 2010, 03:06 PM

Which in SR4/A terms means a lot of firepower would need to be expended and the loss of life would be... significant.

That said, about the only reasonable way a Great Dragon could be inhabited would be if the Great Dragon was letting you get away with it. Mechanically, it can be done and it's not that difficult.

Realistically? A gnat's toot in a hurricane has more of a chance to be heard than you have at inhabiting that GD's body.

Personally, I'd be more concerned that the Dragon was leading me on and had some screwball way to mess me up such as faking the inhabitation and inhabit his own body instead of my ally. Then let me think my ally was at the helm instead of him.

Yeah, never deal with a dragon. The ROI just doesn't compute.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 9 2010, 03:27 PM

I'm sorry, but all this talk about inhabbitation and what not has got me thinking. What happens if you encounter an inhabbitation spirit, who grants your astrally projecting form inhabbitation. Does this mean you can now inhabbit your own body? Or is there some issue time limits or the like?

Posted by: Neraph Sep 9 2010, 04:36 PM

Theoretically you could, and Inhabitation mentions you don't have to worry about Evanescence, which is similar to the time limit for mages. You wouldn't be projecting anymore, and that's what it worries about.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 04:42 PM

Um. Couldn't you also destroy your body? Oops!

Posted by: Neraph Sep 9 2010, 05:42 PM

Yeah you could... and end up just having Materialization until you get Disrupted. Which is still a good deal.

Posted by: sabs Sep 9 2010, 05:50 PM

wouldn't you still die in 2*Magic Hours?

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Sep 9 2010, 06:24 PM

Going back to the original question, I figure I'd create a private penthouse suite for myself in the head, some middle class housing inside the main body and some low-rent tenements from the tail downwards, the rent from which would allow me to live a life of luxury.

Posted by: Rand Sep 9 2010, 08:23 PM

Just in case you don't know, the numbers you see in the Earthdawn books aren't the actual scores, they are the Step Number of those attributes. So the actual attributes are about double the number listed. Of course, they don't translate exactly in to SR numbers. Not sure what they used (if aything) to translate them between the two systems.

Posted by: sabs Sep 9 2010, 08:27 PM

Oh I know
I looked at it, and ~roughly a step number is roughly the same as a stat number in shadowrun 4e.

The average is a 10, which translates to a 5 step
Average stat in SR is a 3.

Like I said, doing really rough math.

Still that means that your average dragon is using using something like 40-50 dice for combat pools.

Posted by: Critias Sep 9 2010, 08:30 PM

Deal with a dragon, but only when it beats the alternative (pissing it off by not dealing with it, for instance).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 08:32 PM

That's called a lose-lose.

Posted by: Rand Sep 9 2010, 08:33 PM

Yeah, they be serious bad-assess, so much so, that in either game I would not want to have to deal with. The only other game I know that make dragons that way is Rolemaster where, on average, an adult dragon can one-hit-one-kill a high level character with a claw swipe. Not to mention their breath weapon destroying squads in a single breath. D&D dragons are major weenies comparatively. (Except the ones in The Iron Kingdoms, they were nasty - you should read the description for their primary dragon, "and two score and seven went screaming into the maw...." Awesome!)

Posted by: Neraph Sep 10 2010, 05:22 AM

As soon as you Inhabited, Possessed, or Materialized, you'd technically no longer be Projecting now, would you?

Posted by: Angelone Sep 10 2010, 05:40 AM

Offtopic but what is ROI? I've seen it a few times now and can't figure out the acronym.

Posted by: Critias Sep 10 2010, 05:41 AM

Return On Investment.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 10 2010, 05:42 AM

RAW = Rules As Written.

RAI = Rules As Intended.

ROI = I have no idea.

EDIT: Ahh, thanks Critias.

Posted by: Angelone Sep 10 2010, 05:43 AM

Wow, that was quick. Thank you Critias.

Posted by: Critias Sep 10 2010, 06:13 AM

Meh, I was right here when you posted it. No biggie.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 10 2010, 06:34 AM

So it would work??? I have an idea I want to try now... It could be either VERY good or VERY bad...

Posted by: Manunancy Sep 10 2010, 08:21 AM

In my opinion, Materialized would still count as projecting - you're materializing a projection but are still out of your body. And the effort of maintaing the materialized body into existence is more likely to shorten your time available than to extend it.

Inhabiting and possessing are more debatable since even you're into a a real body. It's not yours so there might still be some problems, but it's probably safer than being out in the open.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 10 2010, 12:10 PM

The big one that would help would be Astral Form. If you have that power, you would be safe from the Evanescence effect.

Inhabitation should work as well as you are permanently anchoring your astral self into a physical form.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 10 2010, 01:39 PM

So if you got a 'true form' from inhabiting yourself, would that mean you're now a free spirit?

Posted by: sabs Sep 10 2010, 01:46 PM

wouldn't your body die, if you inhabited someone else? Severing your connection to your old body.. and yes.. effectively becoming a free spirit?

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 10 2010, 02:27 PM

No actually, your old body would remain alive and well, unit something else killed it

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 10 2010, 02:28 PM

I think you'd turn back into a projection and just die, without additional powers.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 10 2010, 05:53 PM

Effectively. But you still aren't a free spirit for the purposes of what Free Spirits can do. They are a different 'race' than (meta)human which you still are (unless your race changes to Free Spirit by performing Inhabitation & getting the True Form result).

The major issue is that you are only good to go as long as you have the Astral Form power. If that goes away, you are potentially boned depending on how your GM is going to interpret the rules.

But hey, that's between you & your GM. For my players, I reward creative / out-of-the-box thinking. If they come up with stuff that breaks the rules, I reward them and we figure out what to do to prevent the problem from cropping up again.

This whole idea also touches on an old thread where Neraph & I were discussing these very concepts. It was where he showed how one could potentially convert (with GM approval) your mage into a free spirit via an Ally.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 10 2010, 07:21 PM

Reward children for creativity. Punish players for munchkinry.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 11 2010, 04:25 PM

No, because as soon as you Materialize, you create a body and fully assume its form. That means you're no longer astrally projecting - you're now Materializing.


Vaguely - except with vastly fewer Powers, and only for as long as you've got a spirit sustaining the Endowment on you. Soon as that's up.... you're in trouble.


http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=25710&st=0 This is mechanically different, but conceptually similar.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 12 2010, 04:38 AM

That would be the one. The concepts are similar but the methods are drastically different.

Posted by: Manunancy Sep 12 2010, 05:50 PM

But unlike a spirit, you still have (or are supposed to have) a meat body you're currently leaving vacant somewhere else. And the materialized body isn't something existing that you're taking residence in, but something you fore to exist through sheer will. If you get stunned in that body, odds are you'll be dumped back to a passed-out astral form in a fashion somewhat similar to a disrupted spirit, with the materialized body vanishing.

In the same happened into a possessed or inhabited body, my opinion is taht you would be knocked out but would remain in the concerned body - which is afterall existing by itself rather than only through the exercise of your powers.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 12 2010, 06:11 PM

Which would then shunt you back to your real body.