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Posted by: Dashifen Sep 2 2010, 06:50 PM

A player has decided to try and figure out a way that her character's foci could be essentially guaranteed not to be dropped by accident: dermal implants! My feeling is that this is probably fine as long as she agrees they can still be targeted for counterspelling via the astral plane.

Anyone have any other ideas or warnings?

Now, my next fear is that she'll want to use her critter form while sustaining Armor, for example, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 2 2010, 06:54 PM

Apparently, this is a real and canonical thing! Jane "Frosty" Foster had a spell lock (read: 1E equivalent of Sustaining Focus only super broken) implanted in her leg bone. I have no idea if that kind of shenanigans should be permissible for PCs or really anyone but Immortal Elves, however. Foci should probably not cost Essence!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 2 2010, 06:58 PM

How about duct tape instead?

There's nothing terribly *wrong* about implanted foci. My general rule is never, ever implant something that you can simply carry, but if that's what the character wants…

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 2 2010, 07:01 PM

I think the players living body is "opaque" on the Astral so the focus could not be targeted there is it was truely implanted. There needs to be a downside for balance reasons. I guess you could have someone try to steal the focus anyway, might be a good oportunity for that character to get a cyberleg involuntarily.

Ahh 1e, couldn't you ground out spells through spell locks? I seem to remember you could throw Hellblast (or whatever the AOE fire spell was) on the astral at a dual natured entity, and it would ground out and manifest on the physical plane with all the AOE goodness.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 2 2010, 07:07 PM

1E magic is totally incomprehensible because SPELLS are treated as COMBATANTS (like spirits). I don't even want to talk about it. 1E is pretty Fubar. But essentially a Spell Lock was an infinite force sustaining focus (that you could 'pin' to an enemy for say a permanent petrify) that cost 1 Karma to bond. Essentially it was DISCOUNT QUICKENING. Ridiculously expensive in terms of Nuyen though.

No idea about the situation you're describing.

Isn't the general rule of Shadowrun the exact inverse of this. : P

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 2 2010, 07:12 PM

*shrug* I'd rather carry a UWB Radar on my shoulder than pay surgery and Essence to get it in my chest. Same for everything. Some implants are totally unique (or at least, significantly more effective), and those are the ones I'd get. So, never an implant Commlink, but maybe a gyro-wrist or Grip Feet, etc.

Posted by: sabs Sep 2 2010, 07:13 PM

from a Purely Fluff point of view.

In Earthdawn, you can use Blood Magic to "attach" a foci on to you for a year and a day
It's actually very common (as is blood magic in general)

So that might be how the Whats Her Name has a foci attached to her bone.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 2 2010, 07:15 PM

It was also IIRC super-duper-ultra masked and totally impossible to detect through astral perception. Fuck rules mechanics, Immortal Elves do what they want.

/strut

Posted by: sabs Sep 2 2010, 07:17 PM

Remember Immortal Elves know Thread Magic, and some serious Aura Altering Magic from Earthdawn..

They cheat.

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 2 2010, 07:42 PM

My concept looks like this: Drop my character out of an airplain in the middle of nowhere with nothing but his pants and he'll be knocking at your frontdoor some days later.

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Sep 2 2010, 08:00 PM

I like it when people can't take my nifty toys away from me

But as with most implants, implanted foci would probably cost essence.

See also: Tattooing and ritual scarring.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 2 2010, 08:35 PM

That was also something I'd considered. I think it's somewhat in keeping with the idea that body enhancements not paid for via Essence don't interact well with magic.

Posted by: suoq Sep 2 2010, 09:06 PM

Personally, I'd decide and mention to the player that they're also changing their astral form. They're going to be brighter where the foci is located and that's going to make them a bit more recognizable.

_{(I know I'm probably using the wrong terms. Trying to mentally shift gears.)}

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 2 2010, 09:31 PM

Skin pocket.
And as long as it's something like putting shaped metals under your skin, then no, no essence cost.
that's purely aesthetic/cosmetic stuff, not some kind of ware. The fact that it is, indeed, magically active, does not change that.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 05:30 AM

Yes.

I kinda want to play a mage that has a Power/Sustaining/Weapon stacked focus cyberhand/forearm. Not sure which of the "/" options I'd choose, but I'd like to crunch it out sometime.

Back to OP: What character does your player play? You mentioned about a critter form - was that a spell or is the character a Shifter? If (s)he's a shifter the implant would only be viable in the natural animal form.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 3 2010, 06:04 AM

Ware implants only work in their natural form, but i don't see any reason for a Foci to stop working when they shift implanted or not, it's not like implants in shifters disappear into hyperspace when they shift into metahumans.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2010, 08:41 AM

No, they disappear to the meta plane of teknologikal bitz.
You won't find traces of the implant in the metahuman form, when it has been implanted in the animal form.
Only the lessened essence, as far as i remember. It's magic!
Also, seeing how i think fox shifters keep their tails even in human form(is that correct?), then why not play a kangaroo shifter and keep the skin pocket in both forms? *snickers*

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 3 2010, 12:00 PM

IME spurs as weapon foci are quite common.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 12:07 PM

Actually, the wording, at least in the shapeshifter description, says that they stop functioning but do not disappear. Conversely, the drake descriptions says that they actually disappear^^

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 3 2010, 12:50 PM

I never noticed that difference. I've always run drake shifting like the shapeshifter description. This player isn't sure if she wants to play a shifter, drake, or just a magician with a critter form spell, but she does want a way to use foci to try and avoid penalties in either form. Interestingly, she's going for an aquatic animal form so she's looking at a seal shifter, sea drake, or <insert amphibious animal here> critter form with a Geas on her magic that she must consume at least <units> water of Puget Sound per day or suffer the Geas. But, I digress.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 01:09 PM

Yeah, I run both cases like the shapeshifting description, because it at least makes sense^^

Posted by: Fringe Sep 3 2010, 01:30 PM

I would argue that since the focus draws mana through astral space it would be targetable in astral space. The subject's aura might grant the equivalent of cover, though, and a masked focus might be even harder to target.

Yes, I recall from 1e and 2e that you could ground spells through active foci...a potential balance to spell locks, for instance. Just another reason to initiate, so you could run those metaplanar quests to conceal the links to foci. (That's in 4e as well, in SM.) Basically, in order to track the link the tracker has to complete the same quest you did to conceal it...it only takes a Complex Action (IIRC), but you have to be an initiate (or have a spirit with Astral Gateway send you there) to do it.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2010, 01:42 PM

if she does that, then she will have much bigger problems. like poisoning herself to death in one day or so . .

Posted by: suoq Sep 3 2010, 01:48 PM

I don't see how opaque the body can be when you can assense it and see what kind of ware, diseases, toxins are inside the body. Spotting a glowing focus shouldn't be that hard.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2010, 01:51 PM

WARE is a dead spot.
Your aura itself is glowing. Sickness changes colour/makes coloured Streaks.
As do poisons/toxins in certain places. Foci are glowing like your own aura.
Try and discern a single LED in one of those big screens in stadiums and the such.

Posted by: suoq Sep 3 2010, 02:14 PM

Again, I don't understand. Are you saying the foci is glowing exactly the same as you are? Given the term "Christmas Tree" and the power level of the foci compared to the space it takes up, I would have thought it would be glowing a lot brighter than the rest of you. Ans since it isn't taking up essence, it's not replacing a dead spot with something glowing, it's glowing in addition to your own glow.

If it's not obviously visible, I seriously don't understand the term "Christmas Tree".

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 02:27 PM

It's pretty obvious in the astral when you're rocking a foci - I could see someone being able to see it when it's implanted.

"What's...What's that near his waist? It's giving off...incredible power!"

Heh. Heh. Awwwwwl riiiight.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 3 2010, 02:31 PM

If you're gaining the advantages of 'no-drop' *and* 'stealth focus', the cost has to be commensurate. If hiding a focus in your coat pocket doesn't 'stealth' it, neither should a skin pocket (no cost). If you implant it with essence, then you've got more ground to stand on; does that work for foci, or only enchanted items? I feel like the FAQ addressed this, but mostly by saying 'read the Magic book that'll never be published'.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 3 2010, 03:24 PM

That's sort of where I'm coming from. I'm leaning towards giving her the choice of the following:

1. Implant the focus without spending Essence but then it remains a valid target via Astral Perception as it's not a part of your holistic aura.
2. Implant the focus and spend Essence and you the no-drop, stealth focus that isn't a viable target because it's now a part of your holistic aura.

#1 is no-cost for essence but means I could blast the focus if I have the need to while #2 protects the focus but at the cost of her mgaic. Granted, someone would have to be in fairly dire straights to decide to target the focus with a spell and not the player so it's probably an exercise in creative rules lawyering and little else.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 03:26 PM

Depending on what the focus is, you're losing 1 die generally for 1-5 additional dice specifically.

One could always use the focus as an astral link to drop an ickyspell of some sort on the physical location. If it's implanted, it's like hitting one of those Graboids from Tremors with a bomb.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 3 2010, 03:27 PM

If implanted cyberware is visible on the Astral implanted foci should be too. Bright spot/dark spot.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 3 2010, 04:17 PM

That's the same ratio for most cyber/bio style mages, though. Take synaptic boosters and some other useful augmentations costing you 1 essence and sacrifice that point (die) for the bonuses that you receive from the ware.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 3 2010, 04:31 PM

Don't forget Foci Addiction.

EDIT:

Actually I was thinking of a hand/forearm Weapon Focus for Unarmed.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 3 2010, 05:39 PM

Might end up being an exotic melee....

Posted by: sabs Sep 3 2010, 05:41 PM

Unless said Foci is.. forexample.. bandage wrapping for your hands.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 3 2010, 05:43 PM

I did a huge, living rock fist as a focus for one of my player's SURGED, fomori adepts...

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 3 2010, 05:49 PM

Giggity giggity goo!

I'm nut sure if I would use a power focus there or a sustaining focus, however....

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 06:16 PM

*cough* Weapon focus.

Posted by: Mistwalker Sep 4 2010, 02:34 AM

How about a belly button ring (or other bodily piercing that can be covered up by clothing)?

This would give her the no drop option, but also leave the foci as exposed as any other foci to being astrally attacked or taken/stolen.

Implanted or piercing, I think that the focus should be viewable and attackable from astral when it is active. The essence cost would be the payment for the no take/steal option.

Posted by: jimbo Sep 4 2010, 03:24 AM

After reading the earlier thread on tattoos as foci, I decided my shao-lin magician with dragon brands on inner forearms was going to have said brands turned into foci.

Scenario 1, "normal foci"...they can be dropped, stolen, targetted, cause logistical problems when shapechanging, but can be left at home or secured as the situation warrants. Probably more cons than pros though.

Scenario 2, "implants/tattoos"...

"Can I have my arm back? Yeah, the one you guys shot off. I mean, we're cool now and all, but it has sentimental value to me..."

or

"Hey boss, howzbout we take his sustaining focus as payment?"
"Excellent idea, Sonny. Grab a hacksaw..."
"Eeep," says tatted mage.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 4 2010, 03:56 AM

I still say duct tape is the easiest option.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 4 2010, 03:58 AM

One of the former Denarians from the Dresden Files would routinely eat his coin and when it came back out he'd clean it off and swallow it again. You could do that also with small foci.

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 4 2010, 04:57 PM

"Don't look at me! I told you not to enchant the fishhook. I told you!"

Posted by: suoq Sep 4 2010, 05:33 PM

I think I'd warn the character that they're going to have to assense their poo every day. Just a TR1 but don't glitch it.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 4 2010, 05:36 PM

Nah, poo through a sieve(?). Sift out your buried treasure!

Posted by: Dumori Sep 4 2010, 06:57 PM

New post in the what I can't do thread. I will not make my penile implant a weapons focus. Or any focus for that matter.

Posted by: jaellot Sep 4 2010, 07:34 PM

I got a player who has brass knuckles for an Unarmed Focus. He forgets he has it, but he does enough damage anyway...

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 4 2010, 07:47 PM

Doesn't work.
Strict rule of separated layers of the world.
NO GROUNDING.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 4 2010, 09:30 PM

Huh? Active foci can be astrally attacked. That's not grounding.

Posted by: Mistwalker Sep 4 2010, 10:06 PM

I wasn't talking about grounding out a spell from astral through a spell lock or such.

I was talking about being able to attack the foci in astral space when it had been activated, to deactivate it.

While it does not come right out and state that foci can be attacked while they are active, it is inferred.

Activation, p. 199, SR4A states that active foci have an astral form.
Astral Forms, p. 193, SR4A states that only mana spells affect astral forms.

Unless I am have missed something, to me those two references mean that active foci can be attacked and deactivated. While it is a Simple Action to activate a foci, it will stop a mage from casting the following Initiative Pass and an adept from attacking with that weapon focus.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 4 2010, 11:41 PM

ah, okay, seems i misunderstood that sentence.

Posted by: Zoot Sep 5 2010, 10:32 AM

Interesting thread. Our group had a similar discussion about tattoos as foci. My thoughts on the matter were the telesma into which the enchanter puts the magic needs to be a discreet and relatively durable inanimate object. There are several reasons why a tattoo is not suitable: The process takes time, often involves exotic and poisonous substances or bunsen burners/ritual flames. A tattoo is not (to my mind) a discrete object, it is as much a part of a person as their hair or a birthmark. The enchanter can't really bathe it in boiling acid overnight/expose it to the glare of 3 basilisks/bury it in dragon dung for 1 lunar month (varies with tradition etc). Also the final enchantment is done in a magical lodge - a magician is usually unwilling to open his lodge to other magicians unless they are very friendly.

I saw mention of a thread covering tattoos as foci but I couldn't find it.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 5 2010, 01:57 PM

Tattoo Foci are officially legit.
They were a metamagic enchantment or something like that.

Posted by: suoq Sep 5 2010, 02:12 PM

Personally, I have no problem using Ritual Scarification as a method of creating a permanent foci as part of the body. If you know any old punks ask them if they have a copy of Modern Primitives by Re/Search. (Amazon has a couple used for $8 after shipping). Plenty of good ideas, lots of photos, and it's really clear just what people are willing to expose their bodies to. If that exposure resulted in greater power, I could see even more people flocking to do it and becoming members of an organization that practices it (or claims to practice it, one can always join a tradition that's complete b.s.)

I still believe it would be up to the DM to decide if this was allowed and what levels might be allowed and at what cost (above and beyond nuyen and karma).

Warning: Ritual scarification is a "sushi area" where you're likely to encounter things that make some people want to run out of the room and vomit while other people's eyes light up and they start really enjoying themselves. If this is your thing, cool. That being said, you're likely to run into a lot of posers who pretend it's their thing and other people who think it's disgusting. As such, you may just want to steer around it.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 5 2010, 02:29 PM

Ah body modification. I've seen some pretty incredible stuff in both more daily life and anthropology museums. I'm all for most of it. It has strong mysticism especially the more elaborate scarification pattens there can be. From your tattoos to sub-dermal implants. They've all been used in spiritual body art. Piercings only half count as scarification as that's only the making the hole. But aside from "blanence" issues body modification being seen to have magical nature is certainly there on the world today and with SR's way that magic works there is no reason why you can't.

Posted by: jimbo Sep 6 2010, 11:23 PM

I always loved the scene in X-Files: Mulder is watching a "mind-over-body" master tap a nail into his nasal activity. An apprentice explains that the master can also completely pull his testicles up into his abdomen, to which Mulder replies, "Yea, mine are doing that right now..."

Posted by: Critias Sep 7 2010, 12:10 AM

They're generally associated with the Quickening metamagic, not actual Foci, as far as I remember.

Posted by: jakephillips Sep 7 2010, 02:25 AM

I like the idea of scarification or tattooing for a focus. A note on the size of focuses though. Not sure I would want someone with a force 6 powerfocus of doom in a belly button ring... Bigger rating = bigger size or more ostentatious presentation neckless made of oracalucum and blood diamonds with feathered serpent scales as linkage.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 02:32 AM

Not neccessarily so, especially not when it comes to magic. A plain flint dagger can be a F6 Weapon Focus, while a tricked-out, heavily modified claymore may only be F1.

A crazy looking staff can be a F1 Power Focus, while a simple silver band can be a F6.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 02:42 AM

I think jakephillips was presenting his opinion. Makes sense; magic shouldn't be able to hide. At least it'll show up on the astral.

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 7 2010, 05:13 AM

My guess would be that it is possible to have a very small, very powerful focus, but it is *harder* to make. All those exotic alchemical producs and units of orichalcum you use to lower the difficulty have to go somewhere.