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Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Sep 3 2010, 06:23 PM

I was thinking about this the other day. Although we get the pictures of people looking cool with cigarettes hanging out of their mouths and cyber/bioware lets us get past the health risks, wouldn't the best runners be non-smokers?

More than the health and lifestyle costs, smoking makes a person less stealthy. Most smokers do not realize the usually smell of the stuff, even when they are not smoking. It clings to hair and clothing and follows like a cloud. trying to sneak into a building an alert guard might notice the smell even as the runner thinks she is free and clear.

This happened to me RL the other night. I was grocery shopping and taking a cart out to my car, I smelled the tobbacco smell of someone before the walked around my parked car. I at once thought if this were a run, I would have smelled him comming and been waiting in ambush.

Posted by: Johnny B. Good Sep 3 2010, 06:30 PM

Well I don't know of any infiltration specialists that would smoke right before a run.

But with all of the augmentations and short life expectancy, I don't think most runners would be particularly concerned with the health risks of smoking as they would be with, for example, bullets.

Posted by: Fix-it Sep 3 2010, 06:37 PM

I asked the same thing of a guy in the military.

he replied that everyone just switches to chewing tobacco or nicotine gum.

Posted by: IcyCool Sep 3 2010, 06:56 PM

I think the quote was from Blackjack's page a long time ago, but it went something like this:

"A person who is just standing around is conspicuous as hell. A person standing around smoking a cigarette is ignored, as they are a common sight."

But yeah, someone who breaks into a compound reeking to high heaven isn't a terribly smart person. But there are numerous easy ways to conceal or eliminate the smell, and a professional will do so.

Posted by: Summerstorm Sep 3 2010, 06:56 PM

But you NEED to have some cigarette/cigar based equipment:

Cigarettes with smoke which refracts lasers, Laes cigarettes. your "Last cigarette" (injects the smoker with K-10 to make it the last cigarette for ALL), The Cigar-Gun (Shooting a poisoned dart). Ultrapoison cigarettes (loaded with poison you are genetically altered to be imune to). Exploding cigarettes... The choices are endless (Well... maybe that was nearly it but still..)

Posted by: Dwight Sep 3 2010, 07:03 PM

But this why I have a character, to do all the stupid, risky things I don't do.

Posted by: Critias Sep 3 2010, 07:07 PM

I think you're overestimating the likelihood of a sense of smell giving someone a way (or at least the importance of it), and underestimating the idiotic, risk-taking, Rule of Cool, consequences-be-damned, decision making skills that lead someone to a life of running the shadows in the first place.

Posted by: Acme Sep 3 2010, 07:34 PM

Yeah, I'm in the "it's just a game" field on this one. The whole cigarettes thing in the pictures was partly for mood-setting, the clinging back to the neo-noir bits that they're trying to go "look, we're cyberpunk!"

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Sep 3 2010, 07:38 PM

Snake in Metal Gear smokes.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 3 2010, 07:41 PM

At the cost of his health(bar).

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 3 2010, 07:47 PM

Have you ever used a drone with a chemsniffer against a player who was feeling overconfident under his invisibility spell? (I like to add wi-fi scanners as well. Every runner uses a com. )

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2010, 08:02 PM

Aside from the problem of smell (And the sight of a flickering ember which can be seen farther than you'd think), there's not much problem with smoking.

After all, lungs are cheap now.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Sep 3 2010, 08:18 PM

Don't forget the scent masking cigarettes. Healthy and gets rid of unwanted odours!

....Febreeze™ brand cigarettes

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2010, 08:33 PM

Yeah, that causes another problem.

"Wait, I smell nothing." "So?" "We're in the Sprawl. When haven't you smelled urine, sour noodles, and unwashed bodies." "Oh, drek."

Posted by: Redcrow Sep 3 2010, 08:36 PM

Electronic Cigarettes don't produce any odor. They are just mini-vaprorizers that deliver nicotine through an inhaled water vapor system. They look like real cigarettes right down to an orange LED that glows on one end when you inhale from the other. Also, because they don't produce all the carcinogens of an actual burning cigarette there aren't as many health risks; though probably still some.

By the 2070's these could be very popular. Especially amongst Shadowrunners.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2010, 08:39 PM

Until it gets hacked.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Sep 3 2010, 08:40 PM

Why does my cigarette smell like soy burgers? Drek, now I need to hit up a Stuffer Shack™

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 3 2010, 08:40 PM

Psh, why would it have an OS?

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Sep 3 2010, 08:43 PM

Why WOULDN'T it? Give it a personality. Get it to nag you to quit, if you want

Posted by: Redcrow Sep 3 2010, 08:44 PM

You can get replacement cartridges with various flavors like strawberry, but I'm not sure how popular soy burger flavor would be.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 3 2010, 08:45 PM

Nagging is what your comm's for. Ha.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2010, 08:46 PM

*Sings "Jealous of your Cigarette" in the key of off*

Posted by: Kruger Sep 3 2010, 08:53 PM

Don't bring logic into this. This is 4e. Why wouldn't it have an OS and wireless capability? After all, you might need to link it to your commlink so you automatically get a warning when the battery is dying or the nicotine pack is spent.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Sep 3 2010, 08:55 PM

That is why I said the very best runners. I mean how many of you guys smoke RL? A lot of smokers do not realize how the scent lingers on them even when they haven't had a smoke in a while.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2010, 09:08 PM

I saw what smoking did to all three of my parents, and after they quit I noticed how bad it smelled.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 3 2010, 09:09 PM

Part of me wants to just the laugh while the other part thinks, "Maybe not the actual cigarette, but likely the charging pack would be able to do things like change scent, give you battery levels, etc"

Posted by: Critias Sep 3 2010, 09:13 PM

Oh, I'm not a smoker and never will be. I know full well how much it reeks.

I just don't see it coming up on a shadowrun all that often. If you're close enough for someone to smell you, you're doing well enough on Stealth rolls you're probably the sort to try and come from downwind anyways, or something. If a GM's seriously going to start trying to penalize infiltration attempts based on someone being a smoker, he'd better be prepared to really up the "realism" ante of his game.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2010, 09:21 PM

Depends on if your upwind or downwind. You'd be surprised how far scent can travel to someone that's aware of it.

Try sneaking up on a Wolf Shapechanger reeking of smoke.

Posted by: Critias Sep 3 2010, 10:18 PM

Yeah, but just try sneaking up on a Wolf Shapeshifter at all. I know plenty of folks -- oh, God, especially when I was trapped in cubicles with them for hours at a time -- that slather on enough perfume or cologne to be just as pungently reeking as any smoker.

GM's gonna want to start giving them penalties, too?

Posted by: Dwight Sep 3 2010, 10:24 PM

Then there is the Face-Infiltrator with the pheromone bioware that just finished off negotiating the price for the job. Oh, and the guy that loves himself some big bowls of veggie curry, with extra synth-broccoli..

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2010, 10:28 PM

*Driving away from the massive firefight* "Aw man, now this car smells of rotten hoop and cordite." "Yeah, sorry, I had AzTexMex at the Stuffer Shack." "AW MAN! We're all going to DIE!"

Posted by: suoq Sep 3 2010, 11:45 PM

I thought runners smoked for the addiction build points.

You didn't think that was tobacco in that cig, did you?

Posted by: Kruger Sep 3 2010, 11:59 PM

I've been running for years and don't smoke, so yes. Got the Philip Rivers' charity 5K fun run tomorrow actually, not that 5K is very much of a run.

You, you mean shadow runners.

Yeah, probably not. Cigarette smoke carries forever, hangs around, and it's very distinct and unlikely to be mistaken for something else. But there are plenty of substitutes one can use even today. My brother has one of those electronic cigarettes, there's nicotine gum, patches. Heck, by 2072 I'm sure you can get an implant that slow releases. Chewing tobacco or dip isn't really a great alternative for runners because you're gonna have to spit out the juice unless you are all that is man (Maybe a 5 point positive quality in the making there) and swallow it.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2010, 12:03 AM

"New, from AddicTech: The CyberCigarette! Implanted next to a lung lobe, it slowly releases a carefully calculated amount of nicotine smoke to relax you as you need it! Order today and get a skillsoft chip to allow you to perform tricks using smoke!"

Posted by: tifunkalicious Sep 4 2010, 01:24 AM

Most every player Ive had that make it a point their character smokes has clarified they enjoy them only occasionally. If you want to incorporate a long-time smoker into the game, just create him with a lower body stat than the average PC in his role.

The smell issue is up to GM interpretation, in 2072 lifestyle costs could cover a variety of laundry addins and shampoos that wipe smells right out. It WOULD be an interesting left-field perception test for the players. Joe Assassin is hardly ever heard, but damn that smell!

As for the effects on health, some of the most athletic people in my school are smokers. Granted, they won't stay the most athletic for very long, but at a younger age (which shadowrunners tend to be), you still have a few 'invincible' years before it takes its toll. Also consider that a diet heavy in nutrisoy will make smoking practically the only harm you're doing to your body that isn't bullet-related, which will again make it a little bit longer before it slows them down.

Posted by: jaellot Sep 4 2010, 01:25 AM

Not a smoker but sign me up! Is there a higher rating Skillsoft for even more tricks?

Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2010, 01:32 AM

Yeah, but it costs extra.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 4 2010, 04:03 AM

On a side note they did studies in real life to see how much nicotine actually gets into your system when using electric cigarettes and the amount was somewhere between none and an insignificant amount. But they do probably work as a placebo. In 2070 they probably have electric ultra cigarettes. A biomonitor linked to the cigarette constantly gives you 80% of a lethal dose and keeps you there, maintaining your nicotine buzz.

Posted by: Dwight Sep 4 2010, 04:18 AM

Cripey! 80% of a lethal dose? While nicotine is quite toxic, you'll be bouncing off the walls with that much. Most smokers don't come anywhere near that. A 4-pack/day chain smoker isn't even going to hit that because nicotine metabolizes fairly fast (halflife around a couple hours at most).

Although you'd definitely have crazy technocolour, psychedelic dreams.

Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 4 2010, 09:44 AM

Huh, that's what my AI girlfriend keeps doing

Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2010, 11:50 AM

The AI Girlfriend probably wants you to cut down on smoking as well.

You can't be in Hot Sim when you're outside, having a smoke because your Landlord has a "No Smoking" rule in his building. Something about a Betameth lab he has going...

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 4 2010, 01:02 PM

DLN has a good point. Many smokers aren't aware of how it lingers on them. My brother went to the same college I did. When I went back for a reunion after graduating he said I could borrow his room, he'd stay with his g/f. My brother was a smoker then but the room didn't smell of it, but when I left, after 2 nights, my own clothes wreaked.

I can usually tell when a client is a smoker when they come into my office, it lingers on them and I have to work just a little harder to keep a pleasant smile on my face.

When I've been to the range for an hour or so my hands smell of cordite but it's easily washed off in the ladies room and it hasn't lingered on my clothes.

Posted by: Fatum Sep 4 2010, 04:43 PM

Not only will they be smokers, they will be smoking constantly. After all, scent-masking cigarettes are extremely cheap.

Posted by: Glyph Sep 4 2010, 05:35 PM

Smoking may be a vile habit today, but by 2070 the odor is likely to either be eliminated (at least from some special brands), or easily dealt with in a number of other ways. On the other hand, imagine how addictive they will be - considering how much work and research they have put into making them more addictive today, imagine how much worse they could be by the 2070's.

The absolute pros might be "straight edge", but those are rare. Most runners tend to be either corporate burnouts, street scum trying to get out of the barrens, adrenaline junkies, and crazed ideologues. The first three types would be at least moderately likely to smoke (and it would probably be the least of their vices).

Posted by: Critias Sep 4 2010, 05:39 PM

I've got a Social Adept that buys smokes that taste, and smell, like mint. So far no complaints from GMs, just a weird little variation on the cigarette.

Posted by: Kruger Sep 4 2010, 06:04 PM

I'd imagine they don't, since cordite is no longer used as a propellant for ammunition and was normally associated with British ammunition and calibers during WW2.

The "smell of cordite" was just used by enough British military history authors that it's become a common (mis)usage term for something smelling like guns have been fired. However, modern rounds use a variety of different propellants, and the last cordite producing factory shut down in 2002. Though, by that time it was really only making legacy artillery rounds.

The more you know.

Posted by: Voran Sep 4 2010, 11:54 PM

To be fair, the same smell-cues of smoking should be applied to runners most of the time, why? Cause of the smell of the damned gunpowder.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 5 2010, 06:54 PM

Just smoke scent masking cigarettes from Arsenal. Problem solved! Heck, it even makes your more stealthy.

Posted by: ColdEquation Sep 5 2010, 08:37 PM

Overestimating? Why, my guard dogs can smell ya whether you've been smoking or not.

But you do raise a good point- humans have let their sense of smell degrade over the millennia because our primary sense, sight, is so much better than our other senses. The idea of tracking someone by smell is not something that comes naturally to humans, and besides, for the last 8,000 years or so, we've had dogs to do the smelling for us. (Fun historical side note- during the Vietnam War, the US Army issued electronic 'sniffers' to scout units to try and track the Viet Cong by the scents in their urine. Not a super-practical idea, and the project was canned in favor of deploying more K9 teams.)

So, not being a smoker will not contribute to your chances of survival. Go ahead and light up, right? Well...

Think about this. Where are your Shadowrunners going to be where they can get away with smelling like smoke? Most office buildings don't allow smoking inside. Nor do research facilities, as the fine ash and chemical trails that cigarette smoke lets off can mess with sensitive equipment. Someone who smokes a lot may set off chemical detection alarms is a clean room or other sensitive areas.

I think it's kind of sixes, when you come down to it.

Posted by: Critias Sep 5 2010, 10:13 PM

So you suck down normal smokes -- or minty fresh, or jalapeno scented, or strawberry, or whatever -- most of the time, then puff on a scent-masking cigarette from Arsenal a couple hours before a job.

*shrug*

Posted by: CanRay Sep 5 2010, 11:08 PM

"You will give me my Cork-Filtered Menthol Ciggies right fraggin' now or there will be trouble in this Stuffer Shack!" "*Gibbers incoherently in Aztlaner Spanish*" "AND LEARN SOME FRAGGIN' AMERICAN!!!"

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Sep 6 2010, 04:59 AM

If you were a shadowrunner living in Seattle, and you wanted a good Athletics skill, how would you train running in an urban environment?

Posted by: Tyro Sep 6 2010, 06:37 AM

AR overlay on an indoor obstacle course & track

Posted by: Saint Sithney Sep 6 2010, 08:28 AM

Actually, tracking dogs aren't typically used to track smokers because cigarette smoke does permanent damage to a dog's smell receptors. They will smell a person alright, but the nicotine makes them blurry targets at best.



Mechanical sniffers would naturally not have this problem.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Sep 6 2010, 08:43 AM

This reminds me of when I asked about http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=27342&hl= in the SR4A BBB. The idea of being able to use scent in dark places like shadows intrigues me, could lend some great uses if the GM allows for the use of all the 6th world senses. If a GM only thinks and describes things in terms of sight/visual when it comes to perception, the GM tends to get annoyed when the player asks about what info the other senses is picking up (at least in my experience). But gameplay hurdles aside, I think fluff wise, it would be remiss for some Shadowrun characters to ignore possible sources of mission critical information so they can get the drop on their targets.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 6 2010, 01:43 PM

Adepts are a bitch for this for 0.25 pp they can pick up any enchanced sense that is toggable from sent, to infer/ultersonic hearing and more. You can easily make daredevil as an adept for only 0.25 pp you can have echolocation you can also get a +3 on all sight or sound lest for 0.25 pp enhance sense is the most versatile power written. You can mimic any bio/cyber/tech that doesn't rely on none natral mediums. So a super human sense of direction and ultrasound are ok but radar not so much. While some of these are better magic vs essence wise as the implant you mimic they are free and void of any negatives brought on by not being able to toggle they some times have. And some adept powers can mimic more than one implant at once.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 6 2010, 03:38 PM

Sure, but you can do most anything just by buying gear, too.

Posted by: Glyph Sep 6 2010, 06:00 PM

For a quasi-biological version of ultrasound, you need echolocation, improved hearing, and boosted vocal ability, so an adept doing it purely with adept powers would need improved sense: echolocation, improved sense: hearing enhancement, and voice control. And it would also be a good idea to pick up improved sense: sound dampening, too. So that's 1.25 power points (although everything but the echolocation would be useful for other things, too).

I would probably allow any mix of cyberware, bioware, and adept powers that did the same thing. So for example, someone with echolocation bioware, improved sense: hearing enhancement, and a voice modulator would be fine as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 6 2010, 07:04 PM

just try jogging up the freaking hills going from first to 4th.

For Cordite I know after the range my hands do have a small and residue on them but it washes off easily. I know because my husband complains when I don't.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 6 2010, 07:09 PM

Nothing wrong with simply calling any 'gunpowder' residue 'Cordite', inaccurate or not.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 7 2010, 03:50 AM

Gun Nuts are a strange lot (I know, I'm one myself.).

Call a magazine a "Clip" around one and find out.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 04:19 AM

Good comparison. A magazine is totally a clip, as far as normal English is concerned.

Posted by: Kruger Sep 7 2010, 05:13 AM

Really not a Gun Nut thing. Just a general knowledge thing. The "smell of cordite" is one of the more common mistakes people make when writing about gunfights, and such. Just as nobody who knew what they were talking about would refer to a clip as a magazine, using the term cordite to refer to the smell of burned gunpowder might elicit a snicker from people who know better. Sure, cordite is somewhat more romantic sounding than smokeless powder, or nitrocellulose, or a specific modern propellant name like WC844 or WW231 (lol), but it's wrong.

/shrug I only offered the correction as a bit of interesting trivia. Nobody's hands should ever smell like cordite unless they're firing surplus British rifle ammo from the middle of last century, heh. And the game should have referred to weapons using internal magazines with an (i) instead of an (m) since only a handful of weapons are actually loaded with a clip and all of them would still have internal magazines. It's amused me that even after twenty years and essentially five editions, nobody's ever bothered to correct this when it's an easy fix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clip_M1-SKS.JPG

On the left being an actual rifle clip for an M1 Garand, and the right being a stripper clip holding 7.62x39 rounds for an SKS rifle. The one on the right wouldn't actually be loaded into a weapon, it is just there to hold ammunition together before being placed into the rifle's internal magazine.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/SKS_Clip_charge.JPG/514px-SKS_Clip_charge.JPG

Called a stripper clip because the rounds are "stripped" off of the clip as they are pushed down into the weapon's internal magazine. The clip is then discarded, or saved for later reloading.

The easiest way to understand the difference is that a clip holds ammunition so it can be fed into a magazine. A magazine holds ammunition that goes directly into the weapon's chamber for firing. Weapons that use clips have an internal magazine that the clip is fed into.

http://www.yogadork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/nbc_the_more_you_know1-300x197.jpg

But, clip being incorrect is almost common knowledge these days. Then again, common vernacular isn't always acceptable just because it "is". People refer to laptops as labtops, and say things like "for all intensive purposes". Myself, I kinda like learning things and applying that knowledge rather than making the same mistakes other people do. I'm not a scientist but I still know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis. Shadowrun, for all its attempts to update itself to 21st century tech is still using the 1980's ignorant vernacular, heh.

Posted by: Glyph Sep 7 2010, 05:54 AM

At least cell phones don't weigh 1 kilogram any more.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 7 2010, 08:32 AM

SR4A, unfortunately, no longer allows infra or ultrasound for voice control.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 7 2010, 11:23 AM

Why it's still referenced in all the other related books that just an annoyingly stupid and pointless change.