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Posted by: IKerensky Sep 6 2010, 08:02 AM

Hi,

first of all I am not really complaining, but just checking to see if I didn't forget anything.

The Steet Shaman (as in SR4A but Elf and no rat) is in a fight. She have Magic 5, Summoning 5 . One Triad thug is running away with informations.

1st Round : the Shaman use a complexe action to Summon a Force 5 - Spirit of the Beasts. Dont use Edge. Spirit roll only 2 sucess (didn't use Edge to resist, could he have ? he got no reason to do so anyway). Shaman roll good and got 4 sucess. Got 2 services. Use Edge to resist a level 4 Drain and take no hit (why use Edge ? who knows, drain pool is 10 dice).

2nd Round : the Shaman order the spirit to Intercept the chinese, pointing to the fleeing guy.
2nd Round, second IP : the Spirit materialize in front of the fleeing man and easily pin him to the ground (Force 5 spirits aren't especially weak guys).

My pondering is about how easily and fast it was to conjure a very potent Spirit, a mere 3 seconds... I thought Spirits conjuration would have taken more time and be prepared in advance, not in the middle of a fight or on a whim. Did I forget anything ? I probably do.

Also Drain is very dependant on luck more than on spirit power and Force 5-6 spirits sound very easily controllable while quite strong... Afterall usually mages have rating 5-6 Magic.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 6 2010, 08:14 AM

I don't see anythink that you might have forgotten, but you have to remember that summoning a force 6 spirit carriers a potential risk of you having to resist 12 points of drain damage which can have catastrophic consequences if you in a middle of a run.

Posted by: Makki Sep 6 2010, 08:14 AM

you did it right.

concerning drain, there's an optional tule in SM suggesting summoning drain is Force/2+ spirit hits. it's more predictable

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 6 2010, 08:18 AM

Binding is what takes a long time, the initial summoning is quite fast. Yes, it makes it powerful. Any slower, though, and combat would be over before a mage could summon a spirit. And that would take a huge chunk of summoning's versatility.



(If you want to make the argument that limiting mages is warranted though, I won't argue)

Posted by: IKerensky Sep 6 2010, 08:40 AM

Hum the odds to having to resist 12 pts of drain are 0.14% wich is definitely not something you will see everyday. And this is 12 pts of Stun damage.

Now you can expect to resist them with 12 dices (is there a way to up it more than maxing related stats ?), the odds you get the 3 success needed not to get down is only : 81.89%... And you can get many more dice and rules of 6 if Edging the drain (wich you should proably do).

So I think the risk is so minimal it isn't even worth taking into account. You have more chance of getting a major complication on your summoning roll.


*thanks for the http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~bcd/SR/dicerollcalc.html page for the people that made it *

Posted by: mielikki Sep 6 2010, 09:05 AM

I do see one thing that was forgotten here:

Switching between the astral and physical form of a spirit is complex action. The spirit can easily act right after the shaman's order in first IP of 2nd round, however he will not be able to do anything till the next IP, and he only has 2 IP if in material form.

I'd have the guy roll Reaction (+ possibly gymnastics or dodge) to see if he can avoid the spirit and run in a different direction - or crash in the spirit.

This might not seem much of a difference, but if the fleeing guy has a a trigger happy friend in a good position, then the spirit might not survive till his action. Seen that happen several times...

Posted by: Mäx Sep 6 2010, 09:18 AM

Your assuming that the summoner hasn't allready taken damage during the run from casting spells and being shot at.
Also while yes spirit getting 6 succes is very unlikely, it does has a 10% chance to get 4 succes and having to resist 8 points of drain isn't exactly fun in a middle of the run especially as at that point you nessesary didn't even get a spirit out of that deal.

Also thinking minimal risk not worth to be taken into acount is a great way to get your self killed.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Sep 6 2010, 09:54 AM

Materializing takes the spirits action on that 2nd pass for the 2nd IP, so technically it doesn't get to whomp the guy until CT#3, by which point, the sammy could have filled any number of people with holes.

But, if you take a mage with more IPs, then the Spirit can Materialize on IP #1 of CT2 and attack on IP #2.
Still not faster than a gun though..

Edit: mielikki made this point while I was in the shower...

Posted by: IKerensky Sep 6 2010, 09:56 AM

Would love to see what a trigger happy ganger could do to a Force 5/6 spirit... especially as I would rules there is a surprise roll when the Spirit materialize.

But, you are right the spirit had to materialise then act... except he can use his last action of 2nd round to materialise... after all he is astral in 2nd round so he have at last 3 action, right ?

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 6 2010, 10:06 AM

It takes an impressively well-armed ganger to take down a F5 spirit.. that's Immunity to Normal Weapons (10) you're looking at.

Supposing a quite scary ganger with a Ruger Super Warhawk and Ex-Ex, that still requires 3 net successes on hitting the spirit, which has 5ish Reaction.. not too easy. And if you bypass ItNW, it still functions as armor dice, so that's about 15 dice for a damage resistance test.

If I was the ganger, I'd shoot the mage. Unless he has a Body of 6+, he can't really be better armored than the spirit. Also, geek the mage first, otherwise he might just summon more spirits/throw stunbolts.

Posted by: IKerensky Sep 6 2010, 10:30 AM

Except the Mage stayed at the top flat while the gangers are running in the street... as always it is all circunstancial...

Posted by: Mäx Sep 6 2010, 10:38 AM

Taser works quite nicely and only needs the 1 nethit required to hit.(10/2=5 armor and the damage is 6,7 or 9 with the one nethit, depending on what model of a taser he has)

Posted by: IKerensky Sep 6 2010, 11:52 AM

Make you wonder why they bother cary fire arms as Taser is so much better than anything else... sigh.

Anyway I dont think Taser is part of the classical gangers/triad gears... wich is weird as Triads are supposed to be very into occult.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 6 2010, 01:08 PM

They do have a v. short range can be a big negative.

Posted by: IKerensky Sep 6 2010, 01:17 PM

I double checked it and was surprised to see the range is shown to be up to 20 meters... I thought that taser was nearly close combat weapons...

Posted by: Dumori Sep 6 2010, 01:29 PM

It's still a -6 to hit at 20m also once your in 20m that spritys gonna hug you next turn so if you miss...

Posted by: IKerensky Sep 6 2010, 01:41 PM

Given Astral speed and materialisaton I am surprised even 20 meters is enough... no reason why the Spirit cant wait for his 3rd PI in astral to materialise right in hand to hand range.

Distance only matters for people supporting the target.

Posted by: tagz Sep 6 2010, 03:18 PM

In combat distance always matters for everyone, unless you're very loose with distances in combat. But, that said, using Astral to "hop" in combat is typically a good way to limit the effectiveness of spirits.

So having the spirit pop astral to close distance works kinda like this (assuming the spirit goes first in initiative as it likely has more dice):

IP1:
Spirit: Spirit uses complex action to shift to the Astral. Then uses free action for movement to where it see's target's aura.
Ganger: Runs

IP2:
Spirit: Free action to move up to ganger again. Complex action to shift back to physical realm. Cannot do much else this round, at least much that's useful.
Ganger: If he's taken a combat drug (likely) or is one of the lucky ones to have IP enhancements (less likely) he gets a free shot on the spirit.

Now we've got to go to the next turn to get a hit off.



Now me, I'd have the spirit close the distance in the meat. Most spirits can move as fast or faster then humans, meaning they can at least keep pace unless the target is built for speed (or a troll... trolls and speed is just crazy). It can be targeted doing this but will have more options.

IP1:
Spirit: Spirit uses free action to close some of the distance, then uses elemental attack on ganger.
Ganger: Ganger shoots at spirit at penalties from running and possibly damage from elemental attack. Likely will not penetrate ITNW.

IP2:
Spirit: Spirit closes more distance with another free action. If close it might use unarmed combat or a close range power. If not close then another elemental attack does nicely.
Ganger: If IP enhanced somehow will fire again, at likely same or worse penalties.

The big difference here is that it will likely take an additional turn and let the ganger get a free shot on the spirit to "pop" in front of him. And while all this is happening, the Street Sam is taking his/her actions. So, in all likely-hood the ganger drops before the spirit gets a chance to attack.

Also, an addition to IPs does not take place until the next combat Turn. So shifting to Astral means you don't pick up IP#3 until the combat turn it shifted is over and a new one has started. It works like this for all IP bonuses.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 6 2010, 03:53 PM

I don't know... Our mage took 20 drain from a Summoned Force 5 Spirit once (and with the 15 Dice and Edge Spent to resist it, he ONLY took 11 boxes of damage... Of course, he had a penchant for abusing spirits (Spell Binding and other shenanigans), and the spirit resisted the summoning with Edge (with 10 Hits on resistance towards the summoning), but that is the chance you take when you play with spirits.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 6 2010, 10:11 PM

No idea what the RAW says, but if you think that a summoner is getting away with a spirit too 'easy', you CAN have the spirit use edge to resist getting summoned....using it to reroll after the test would probably be best. If you roll five dice for a Force 5 spirit, get one success, decide to Edge and go "oh there's three more successes" it's the difference between the shaman soaking two drain and soaking EIGHT drain.

Also in your above example did you take into account that Materializing is a Complex Action?

I definitely would not say that summoning is overpowered though. Remember that a Street Sam can just shoot the fleeing character with a stick-n-shock round in the same pass without taking ANY drain or waiting for the spirit to appear.

Posted by: IKerensky Sep 6 2010, 10:45 PM

Why would the spirit have to spend an action to go back to astral, isn't he in astral in the first place, he just need to materialize when he reach the target.

About the IP1 the spirit use his free move action after the gangers so he dont need to move again after materializing (free action could be taken out of your own initiative rating) it is far more logical and better translate simultaneous action.

The sammies weren't able to shoot the guy because they were ambushing him at an appartment top floor. But the ganger manage to smell the trick and didn't enter, deciding to run down stairs. Sammies goes in pursuit, what they didn't plan was that the ganger was a physical adept and use great leap to go downstair a lot faster they were expecting and he have headstart.

So they weren't in a position to take pot shot at him, magical interception was the trick.

(in fact the ganger was intercepted by one of the runner that was disguised as the concierge and that shot him flat with his colt deputy (that's where I discovered the runner specialised in infiltration, disguise and lockpicking is using a Colt Deputy oO and where he discovered you cant use silencer on thoses ... ).

About the use of Edge to resist summon I am unsure of when I should use it, always seems too harsh, especially for a quite random summoning. I think it is more usefull in case of binding or attemps to summon again specific spirit.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 12:15 AM

Well, at our table, we use it for summoning any Spirit of Force 4 or greater... they spend the edge to Re-roll any failures in most cases. They also spend Edge to resist any Binding at Force 4 or Greater...

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 12:59 AM

Yeah definitely use it for Binding spirits REALLY don't want to get bound, yo.

Technically, this is legal:

R1, IP1: Summoner summons.
R2, IP1: Summoner commands spirit . Spirit gets in place and materializes.
R2, IP2: Spirit pins guy.

Functionally no difference with waht you said, BUT what you described is...



Which is technically impossible because a spirit CANNOT Materialize and pin someone in the same IP! Materializing is a complex action, just like melee combat. Hence what you are describing happening on the second IP of the 2nd Round isn't possible. Going from Astral to Physical is a Complex Action.

Anyway...if the guy was out of line of sight--like way out of line of sight--wouldn't the spirit technically had to have spent time using the Search power to find him? And if the guy ISN'T way out of line of sight, can't the Samurai just catch him and nail him? Of course I'm sure I'm not picturing the situation right. I wasn't there.

Also...unsilenced revolvers make me a sad panda. I guess he could use...subsonic ammo? Unsure why he's so in love with the Deputy anyway.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 01:02 AM

Ummmmm, Spirits get Multiple IP per Round, and your Mage may also have Multiple Initiative Passes... Your examples continue to not take this into account... But your right, it is highly unlikely that a spirit could materialize and Pin an opponent in a single IP...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 01:04 AM

Just... Ouch. Is magic really that much of a problem in your games? That's some hard-core GM predjudice.


That's okay, because technically spirits cannot Materialize.

In any event, it would take at least two Initiative Passes for that to work.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 01:11 AM

What? Spirits have the Materialization power. It lets them...Materialize? Where are you getting "technically spirits cannot materialize from". Not everyone is rocking a possession tradition.



If the mage has multiple IP why, in the first example, did he wait until turn 2 to command the spirit? That's why I assumed he had one IP.

Also, if I recall correctly materialized spirits have a maximum of 2 IP. Spirits have 3IP in Astral and 2IP when materialized.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 01:15 AM

Magic is not a problem in our games... There are a lot of things to keep magic controlled, and this rule (Spirits can use Edge for any purpose after all, just like a character can) is one of the reasons why; Believe me, it is not a predjudice on anyone's part... In Fact, it tends to maintain the verisimilitude of the game a lot better than having no constraints would. If everyone is summoning High Powered Spirits (I think that I heard once here on Dumpshock that the average Force Spirit summoned was 9; here anyways), then the game tends to bereak down a lot. When there are canon limits to what is common/typical, then you tend to see a more believable distribution of spirits in game... Otherwise, you see nothing but Force 9+ Spirits, and that just is not a lot of fun for a lot of people... Believe me, Mages are quite powerful enough already, and a common sense limit to their power is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As always, I know that not everyone agrees with this sentiment, but there you go, YMMV.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 01:17 AM

Materialize is a Physical Power, and cannot be used in the Astral Plane... But you MUST have an Astral Form to activate Materialize (Which means you are on the Astral Plane)... How do you activate a Physical POwer on a Plane that does not allow activation of Physical Powers? Catch 22... Materialization, Possession and Inhabitation all have this issue if I remember correctly.



Can't answer the first for you (Maybe he was casting spells?), but the second is indeed correct...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 01:17 AM

Spirits are initially summoned on the Astral Realm. You cannot use Physical Powers on the Astral. Materialization, Possession, and Inhabitation are all Physical Powers. By RAW, spirits cannot use Materialization, Possession, or Inhabitation.

FYI, I do in fact suspend that limitation, but only for the purposes of those Powers.

EDIT: Look at Type, under Powers, page 286, SR4, and the descriptions for those three Powers. Or page 204 from Running Wild.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 01:22 AM

That is obviously the equivalent of a typo! Why would ANYONE interpret it that way? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 01:23 AM

It is not an interpretation though... NO PHYSICAL powers (This includes all Physical Spells by the way) may be used on the Astral Plane, except for these 3 apparently... Though I do think that someone was not paying attention when they wrote those particular abilities up though...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 01:30 AM

Obviously those were intended to work, although by strict RAW they cannot. There should be something about them being able to work despite their Physical nature in their descriptions, but there is not.

I personally think it's fun to find things like that.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 01:32 AM

YA THINK!?

I mean, the entire PURPOSE of Materialization is to manifest in the physical world. The TEXT of the power is "Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into the material world, thus allowing them to interact with physical beings". To any sane person, that should override whatever stupid technicality makes Materialization impossible.

I just think that this is very very silly. It is obviously a mistake. When an NPC in a published adventure has an Initiative of 3 and has 10 IP, because someone accidentally switched the numbers around, would you have them go ten times a turn?

HERE'S ANOTHER THING:

How did they not CATCH this between SR4 and SR4A!?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 01:41 AM

Indeed....

And who Knows...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 01:54 AM

When have I ever said that I rabidly adhere to RAW in my games? And please, stop yelling. Caps lock is not Cruise Control.

Posted by: jakephillips Sep 7 2010, 01:55 AM

Mid range spirits 4-7 will smash regular guys. Just add spirit of man with optional power to cast one of your spells or got forbid fire elemental, with energy aura for +4 melee damage. Most mooks and lone star patrol officers folks can't hurt a f5 spirit thats why magic fights magic and they call in back up. As for always spending edge to resist summoning I reserve that for mages that abuse their spirits or rebind after they have already bound them once. But as the guy says YMMV on that and every one has house rules and styles of play that make their home game fun. Bound spirits are even faster call as a simple action and shoot the bad guy with your other simple.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 7 2010, 02:00 AM

Without the rule in place at our table I never summon a spirit less than force 6 unless it is for trivial tasks or amusement. I initially thought it was a weird table rule, but the more I have played the more I think it is a great way to handle things. Spirits are awesomely powerful, and it is fantastically easy to summon up a force 8 or 9 one out of the gates when they do not use edge. And for those talking about well on the fly in a run you don't ant to risk damage I say they last til sunrise/sunset and go read the first aid rules again. It is not hard to summon one up at breakfast and patch up on a bad resistance roll.

The rules basically say spirits can and will use edge if they want to resist the summons. The potential reasons they gave were abusive summoner and the spirit feels the discrepancy in power is such that you are not worthy to summon him. How a spirit thinks he is too bad assed to be summoned by you is a GM call TJs table went with force 4+, I have heard others say above the magic rating of the summoner. I prefer TJs since a few runs in and that isn't a functional limit on a summoner focused mage.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 02:02 AM

I never thought about the concept of RAW v. RAI before coming to Dumpshock. Since then I have thought about little else. Sorry for 'yelling'. It is moderately easier to hit the caps lock key then highlight something and tag it as bold. Anyway, I'm glad you don't interpret the rule that way and I hope that no one does. The fact that anyone could think that such a retarded mistake is what the developers intended and run a game where spirits are unable to manifest makes me die a little inside.



Here is one thing I think about spirits that is very silly. The most important determining factor of whether or not a mundane character can hurt a manifested spirit isn't weapon skill, Willpower, or Charisma (Attack of Will as written is highly ineffective)...the most important factor in determining if you can harm a spirit through it's "Immunity to Normal Weapons"? The AP of your weapon. Which to me clashes hard with the fluff of "Immunity to Normal Weapons" which is that spirits are immune to guns because they are magical and ethereal. APDS ammo should not be the perfect choice for "Banishing".

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 02:06 AM

Well... to be a smartass for a second... APDS is not the perfect ammunition choice for killing Spirits, Stick and Shock is, though APDS/AV is a close second...

Okay, Sorry about that...
But that is really the only choice for a Mundane other than Attacks of Will, which is pretty suicidal if you really think about it, though it CAN be accomplished, if you are a bit lucky that is...

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 02:15 AM

With attack of Will you roll just willpower. Just Willpower against the spirit's Reaction + Unarmed Combat (like 10-11 Dice for a Force 4 Fire Elemental). Good luck. If you hit, you deal a base of Charisma. Any character who would have the attributes to be good at attack of will is probably already a mage.

And, about the ammo...God I hope this doesn't lead into another RAW/RAI situation. I really thought those two were always the same and now I seem to be learning that they are always different:

SticknShock still counts as a normal weapon and requires 4 (5?) net hits to bypass the Hardened Armor of a Force 5 materialized spirit. Spirits do not resist electricity damage with only half impact because that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the rules? Well I guess it depends what kind of a spirit. Does a fire spirit care about being electrocuted? Probably not. And an earth spirit maybe should be flat out immune to electricity damage. But maybe a water spirit would not like SnS. Although of course now that I think about it, it's kind of arbitrary to count the AP of APDS and not Stick'nShock

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 02:19 AM

Attacks of Will is the only way a mundane can affect a spirit with ItNW in my campaigns. Well, you either use elemental effects like real fire, water, lightning (electricity) or the such. Stick N' Shock does not work for me because I cannot imagine that some little barbed hook can latch into hardened armor that is part of a magical being to deliver the electric in the first place!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 02:27 AM

Yes, Attacks of Will for a Mundane is a gamble, but sometimes you just have to use what you have...

As for the Ammo... No worries, It was just a comment on the availability of resources for a mundane to take on a Spirit... As for the debate (and it is a continuous debate, make no mistake) on the effectiveness of the various ammunitions for Spirits; I see no issues with using the AP of the rounds as described... after all, it is the ONLY effective means for a mundane to deal with a spirit most of the time... Any good Mage/Adept has other means of removing spirits, but mundanes only have the specialized ammunition... gives them a fighting chance... and just becasue the spirit has Hardened Armor, it does not mean that it bounces ammunition like a TANK does (WEll mostly anyways). It just makes the spirit a little harder to disrupt is all... Spirits do take stun after all, where a vehicle completely ignores such trivialities......

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 02:30 AM

Immunity isn't really Immunity. Check the Immunity Fire thread for a few page discussion about that.

And Stick-n-Shock rounds are way better than APDS for smashing spirits, IMO. They're more easily accessable, you can start with them in chargen, and they're nonlethal for other opponents.

Also, I'm starting to favor the flavor of Calling mages more and more. If you use the Calling rules instead of the Conjuring ones, you end up with more balance and less Edgy spirits. At least, in theory.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 7 2010, 03:33 AM

Personally, I just make Anchoring way less (stupidly) expensive, change the rules on it a bit, and have Caster Shells be at least semi-prevalent for taking out the big boy spirits.

But I do play with much higher magic incidence than most.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 04:51 AM

Considering I'm not even sure what you're talking about, I'm sure you do! : )

At high enough Force it effectively is really for real immunity. A Force 10 Spirit more or less cannot be harmed by normal weapons. They have Hardened Armor 20 against all forms of mundane damage. Hardened armor of 20 is more or less actual immunity. (Welp I guess Anti-Vehicular rockets and Assault Cannons being used by experts are getting through, but very little short of that.)

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 04:55 AM

The Big railguns do -1/2 AP and then another -10. The Thunderstruck does -1/2 then -5. Stick-n-Shock is -1/2 and you only need 5 successes for dmg to go through. Flamethrowers are -1/2.

Or a Manabolt.

EDIT: Or laser guns.

EDIT EDIT: Or Mana Static.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 05:33 AM

Manabolts are not mundane nor is mana static.

Five successes are hard to get against a moving target, and even a Force 9 Fire Elemental has Reaction 12 or so. So at higher levels even Stick'n'Shock is pretty ineffective (thank goodness). I guess you're right about the Railguns but then again Railguns are magic. <3

Flamethrowers seem like a great thematic choice for dealing with, say, Water Elementals.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 06:41 AM

I never said Manabolt and Mana Static were mundane methods.

Laser guns are also fairly effective, as I mentioned.


Also, a Reaction of 12 means you get about 3 successes. With a dicepool of 20 (easy-peasy to get) you can expect 6 successes, which is 3 net, which would meet the spirit's armor. If you shell out for a TacNet you can bump your dicepool to 22+ easily, making your last success or two required to hurt the thing with SnS rounds.

Also, can someone quote where it says BF/FA modified damage is calculated after checking for Hardened Armor? I remember that rule existing, but don't know the source.

I refuse to talk about Flamethrowers based on the Immunity Fire thread. Don't want to start that up on this thread again.

EDIT: No, flamethrowers are ok. This is talking about ItNW, not ItF. Bring on the Blessed Promethium, Brother-Captain.

Posted by: WyldKnight Sep 7 2010, 06:55 AM

In my old group a mundane could take banishing if only used for attacks of will. We had a dwarf street sam who decided to take up banishing to be more effective in a magical fight. Eventually he got some good at it we had him handling the spirits while we took the conjuror, MBW 3 was a big help but the main help was having two more IPs.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 06:58 AM

It should be noted (I don't remember seeing it mentioned yet) that you can only spot-summon one spirit in this manner anyways. I'd call that a balancing factor. Plus the unpredictability of the Drain. Summoning that one F5 spirit, even without it using Edge can put you flat on your back.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Sep 7 2010, 07:21 AM

Is it time for me to bring up the fact that Spirits do not have a stated Immunity to Toxins?

FIGHTIN' GHOSTS WITH PEPPER PUNCH DOOT DOOT DO DO DOOO!

Oh, also vehicles. They have no toxin resistance either..

Ooooooh FIGHTIN' CARS WITH PEPPER PUNCH DOOT DOOT DO DO DOOO!

Posted by: Mäx Sep 7 2010, 09:37 AM

Unless its a magical toxin, the get ITNW against it like everything else-

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 04:25 PM

Cars are immune to stun. Two shots with P4MO is effective, though.


No they do not. Toxins work off of a Toxin Resistance Test, not a Damage Resistance Test. ItNW would work against the capsule round or dart, but not the toxin it carries.

As Written.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 7 2010, 04:59 PM

Ah the absurdity of RAW...guess those toxins work on drones too...well the non-stun damage portion of the affects anyway.

Can drones catch VITAS?

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 05:06 PM

Sometimes I wonder if the definition of "totally ridiculous" is different for me than for some people.

Toxins working on spirits? On cars? Bullets that can "shock" a spirit?

Geeze, just because elemental effects can halve ItNW, that does not mean SnS can.

And no, a spirit can not be made nauseous with a sonic attack!

Common sense and maybe some previous edition sense is really needed sometimes.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 05:07 PM

Why? Stick-n-Shock rounds are an elemental effect - that's why they're listed as dealing Electricity damage.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 7 2010, 05:13 PM

I don´t want to warm up the old quarrel again, but SnS-ammo overloads the nervous system with a low voltage charge. Do spirits have a nervous system? Common sense is the magic word.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 05:43 PM

That's why you take the -2 to all actions and have a chance to drop unconscious - the electricity damage is a seperate matter. I wonder, would a Spirit struck by lightning in your game just laugh about it also?

If it's such an issue, simply make spirits immune to the -2 and the Test or Drop.

Posted by: Rand Sep 7 2010, 07:55 PM

I didn't read all the other posts so....

In my game, I have it take 1 minute per force point to summon a spirit. I don't like the speed of it either, and much prefer it to be something they have to pre-plan, at least to a degree. If the samuraii or anyone else has to pre-plan on certain gear ans such, then the mages should a similar limitation. IMO.

Posted by: Rand Sep 7 2010, 08:05 PM

As for when a spirit will use Edge or not to resist summoning, I thought of something I might implement: Whenever a mage/shaman tries to summon a spirit with a higher force than the summoners Charisma, it will use Edge to resist. It give some more importance to Charisma, and aren't possession-based traditions linked to Charisma anyway? If so, it sort of makes sense then. (To me.)

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 7 2010, 08:44 PM

QFT.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:18 PM

That indeed is an old quarrel. Here's the old answer:

Now, this could simply mean that they react to damage with pain (wound mods). Or, it could mean that they take taser damage as flesh. Either is equally valid; pick the one you prefer for your game, but the default is that they take damage as normal.

Posted by: DireRadiant Sep 7 2010, 09:27 PM

In 3 IP the street sam anyone else will have already filled the fleeing ganger with 30 rounds of ammo. 60 nuyen. No Drain.

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 09:29 PM

No, Stick N Shock delivers an Elemental effect if it hits. It is not a magical lightning bullet that is shooting sparks as it sits in the gun chamber. A Stick N Shock round must first penetrate (Just like a taser) to deliver a shock. Yes, the electrical shock is an elemental effect but I seriously cannot believe that a dart (And that is pretty much what it is, a dart with a mini-capacitor in it) could penetrate hardened armor to deliver the shock in the first place.

Again, HARDENED armor. To me, this means that it is as tough as steel. Can you shoot a dart into a tank? Hell no!! So what would make you believe that you can shoot a dart into something with armor so tough it is supposed to bounce bullets off it.

SnS ammo was something that was poorly thought out and probably added because it kicked off someone's kewl button. The stuff is sort of impossible by the laws of physics, is explained poor enough as to cause confusion on what damage it causes and what it can be used on, and just creates more problems than it is worth.. So I do what all other editions of Shadowrun have done, not included it.

No SnS..... Hmmmm, still looks and plays like Shadowrun to me. Carry on people....

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:33 PM

That's a house rule that you're free to impose, Darkeus.

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 09:37 PM

Your dang right. Actually, that isn't even a house rule. It is totally a "Yeah, that does not exist" thing.

Trust me, Shadowrun plays much better when you ignore some of the silly stuff they threw in with 4th edition.

Stick N Shock is just worthless. There are two ways to fight spirits, with magic or with Attacks of Will. That is how it has always been in Shadowrun and that is how it should be.

Let us not play the house rule thing. I am sure pretty much no one runs Shadowrun by RAW. We all use House rules in one way or another. Well, except for Cain maybe....

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 7 2010, 09:41 PM

True, but it's generally helpful to keep in mind which is which =)

(SNS magically vanished from my table about two weeks after 4th came out; we haven't missed it)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:44 PM

What's the problem? When you make a gross change to the default rules, it's a house rule. No one said that was a dirty word.

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 09:44 PM

Yeah, I know. "For the spirit of debate" and all that jazz.

But I think I am also commenting on Rules as Intended. I just can't think that the authors had killing spirits in mind when they made this ammo. Let alone it affecting something with the armor of at least a SWAT van!

Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 09:47 PM

Sorry, sometimes it is used as a dirty word around here as if house rules have no merit. Sometimes house rules are MUCH better than the crazy rules that come with the game.

I wasn't trying to be uppity or confrontational though. Sorry if it was taken that way.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 11:09 PM

We use SnS as listed in the Books, as Elemental Damage, and have yet to have any problems whatsoever... And no, it is not the default ammunition of our team...
Just sayin'

Oh, and SnS actually effects those in Military Grade Armor just as it does a Spirit... you still have/get to resist the damage, but with 1/2 your armor...

Posted by: Saint Sithney Sep 8 2010, 01:25 AM

I've always interpreted the spirit's ItNW as sort of the opposite of the kind of Hardened armor you see on a tank.

Spirits are made of ectoplasm. You shoot a bullet at ectoplasm, and it passes right through insignificantly.
The idea is that you have to cause a significant enough disturbance to the endoplasmic form to disrupt it, hence "Disrupted" is the term for a spirit who has been all blowed up.

Does this interpretation mean that armor piercing from APDS is nonsense? Well yeah, but whatevs.
Does this interpretation mean that having to overcome armor resistance before FA fire adds increased effect is nonsense? Also yes.


On a related note, here's a tasty question for the masses.

Blast damage. An elemental effect from Street Magic. Resisted with half impact armor. Super knockdown effect.
High Explosives. Actual explosion as seen in Physics. AP-2. Can't hit the broad side of a barn usually.

How is that fair? How the hell doesn't an HE grenade do blast damage?


Magic is dumb.
I'm going to go blow up a bunch of cars using Whitestar now...

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 8 2010, 03:00 AM

On the plus side an HE Grenade is 'Force 10'? : P

Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 05:13 AM

Only in 1m radius, it get worse fast, unlike an area effect spell.
also it's all too possible for it to go of between your legs, even if you got a critical success.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 8 2010, 07:32 AM

I thought I was running Shadowrun by RAW until someone brought up that god damn "spirits can't materialize" bullshit. Then I realized I was running by RAI like it or not.

Training wheels off.



Isn't that literally impossible? Scatter is 1d6 Meters -2 Per Net Hit. Critical Success = 4 Net Hits. 1d6 - 8 = always 0. Hence, no scatter. Hence, grenade goes where you want on a net hit?

Unless you're referencing the rules for Throwing Back Grenades (which when I think about them makes me wonder why there are no rules for COOKING grenades).

Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 08:00 AM

its 1d6m -1 per net hit, so a critical succes leaves a possibility for it to come 2m back toward you and if you where trowing it inside a room from the door, that might very well in your ass.
Even worse for aerodynamic grenades that are 2d6m -2 per net hit, those have a potential for 4m scatter on a critical success.
To say noting about grenade launcher 3d6 -2 per net hit.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 8 2010, 11:26 AM

SnS ammo is, if i am informed correctly, nothing else than a battery with a needle on top. Correct me if i am wrong. So it (of course) delivers electrical damage, but is it comparable with a lightning bolt? The charge is only sufficient to zapp a nervous system if you bypass the skin. For me that means that the charge is SO LOW, that it wouldn´t even harm unarmored people if there wasn´t the needle. Besides the fact that spirits have hardened armor, they lack the nervous system and the charge of a battery doesn´t qualify for an "elemental attack", just because the RAW tells you to check them to explain the side effects. This is why i would say: common sense makes many things much easier. You have to agree, that if we accept this argumentation, we would HAVE to accept that spirits can be deafened by noise without ears or disrupted by venomous attacks. Does it work by RAW? Yes. Does it make sense? No.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 11:58 AM

Nope, thats why it's stun damage instead of physical.

Posted by: Tanegar Sep 8 2010, 03:45 PM

The samurai doesn't have to resist Drain every time he draws a weapon.

A) Whether magicians of a given tradition summon materializing or possessing spirits has nothing to do with their drain stat. Between SR4A, Street Magic, and Digital Grimoire, there are eight Charisma-linked materialization traditions, and five non-Charisma-linked possession traditions.

B)This constitutes an indirect nerf on magicians belonging to non-Charisma-linked traditions, by increasing their already high multiple-attribute dependency: all magicians need Willpower, a second Drain stat, and of course Magic. By effectively requiring conjurers of non-Charisma-linked traditions to also have high Charisma, you're placing an undue burden on those characters which is not shared by magicians of Charisma-linked traditions.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 03:50 PM

Well, they *do* need Charisma to increase the number of spirits they can have at once, anyway, right?

Posted by: Tanegar Sep 8 2010, 03:55 PM

Depends on whether you want or need an army of spirits at your beck and call (which raises its own set of problems anyway).

Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 03:57 PM

That's the important part. For whatever reason, the way the game is designed to be played allows this. If you want to change anything without honestly knowing why those particular rules are there you run the risk of unintentionally damaging game balance.


Hrmm... Electrical elemental damage is listed as Stun in the BBB, and the added element rule in Street Magic is also listed as being stun. Lightningbolt and Ball Lightning are specifically created not following the rules that they've laid out, and with no reason. If you get Elemental Aura (Electricity) or Elemental Wall (Electricity) those will be Stun, not Physical.

It should be noted that the base property of a taser is the same base property of a lightning bolt or a wall socket or a car battery or a defibrilator (spelling?). It's all simply an application of electrons in varying quantities, similar to a candle, a fire in a fireplace, a bonfire, a grassfire, and a housefire. Same thing, different quantities. Saying a lightning bolt (not the spell) would affect a spirit but not a taser is like saying that a housefire will affect a person but not a shirt being on fire, because a shirt being on fire is obviously a lesser amount of fire.

It should also be noted that Stick-n-Shock rounds specifically mention that they're adhesive, not pronged. They do not require penetration into the skin to function, just being stuck to an object.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 04:09 PM

Okey thats just fraking stupid(the book, not you), being hit by a lightning causes stun damage, but being hit with a firehose causes physical damage.

Now this raises intresting questions, like does elemental strike electrisity turn adepts physical damage dealing attack into on that deals only stun damage?
How about elemental aura spell that has both fire and electrical effect, does it do stun or physical damage?

Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 04:15 PM

1) Yes. But the Lightning spells from BBB are still physical. By the rules in Street Magic they should have an extra +2 Drain Value on each.

2) These things have come up frequently at my table. The best way to do it is kinda like Availability - stack all the damages and elemental effects but take the highest damage code (stun or physical). Also, don't let Killing Hands overwrite Elemental Strike. Trust me. You don't want an adept using a physical damage version of Sonic Elemental Strike.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 04:56 PM

It makes no sense that adding an electricity around my fists stops them from making physical damage.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 04:58 PM

Or does it simply make too much sense?

Obviously there are some interactions between different rules that were either not balanced or not considered. The GM should simply rule on the side of less munchkinry and move on.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 05:08 PM

Considering that changing my elemental strike power into fire or acid or cold or water keeps my damage as physical, i don't really see the balance issue of allowing the electrisity to do the same.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 05:10 PM

Um. The balance issue would be the discrepancy, Max. 'Balance issue' doesn't *just* mean 'nerfing your choice'.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 05:56 PM

Well, electricity damage listed in Street Magic says it is stun. That's why it makes sense - because the rules explicitly tell you that's what it does. Otherwise, why would stun batons and SnS rounds deal stun?

EDIT: Lightningbolt and Ball Lightning are the only electricity effects in the game that deal physical instead of stun damage - and without even a reason why. Even the other magic electricity damage effects are stun.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 09:10 PM

But im still hitting them with my fist that do physical damage, addiding electricity in the mix shouldn't make the punch hit weaker then with out the electrisity.

Posted by: tagz Sep 8 2010, 09:47 PM

Yeah, I noticed the goofiness of electric damage always being stun as well, and it treats all kinds of electricity the same with the exception of spells.

The rules on electricity in SR4A also state though that the GM can modify the resistance test with electricity damage based on other factors such as lack of grounding and extra conductivity. I don't see why that can't change the type of damage the character resists from stun to physical if warranted, such as with high amperage rather then just high voltage.

Conversely, if you wanted to make an electrical source deadly you could just ensure the damage is enough that it has a high potential to overflow into physical from stun. Like grabbing both sides of a high voltage transformer could deal 30S(e).

Posted by: Saint Sithney Sep 8 2010, 10:20 PM

Hit 'em with that brown noise and make 'em poop their insides out!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 9 2010, 12:52 AM

It is the same reason that you cannot hit an opponent with a Shock Glove and Bone Lacing effects simultaneously... You must choose the Electricity damage (with ITS own effects) or the Physical Damage from the Punch (With ITS own Effects)... stacking them would be abusive...

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 9 2010, 01:51 AM

I could have SWORN that for standard grenades it was 1d6 - 2 per net hit.

Edit: Probably because it is! p. 145 SR4, "Scatter Table" sidebar...


etc. (Rockets REALLY suck.)

Dumb Question: What is "BBB"?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 01:57 AM

There is no reason you should be throwing a grenade to *land* 2m from you, crazy. If you're complaining about that, no one can help you. Otherwise, yes, the scatter rules are sticky in some places. Just use airburst only.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 9 2010, 02:32 AM

Airburst everything and house rule rockets from uselessness.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 9 2010, 04:07 AM

SR4A changed scatter rules.

BBB is Big Black Book, another term for the core rulebook (it's big, it's black, and it's a book). The term originated with the 3rd edition IIRC, because it's bigger and blacker than the 4th ed one.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 9 2010, 05:49 AM

Elemental strike power doesn't have any kind of damage code of it own so there's no stacking of different "effects"
Also Shock gloves/hand and touch spells are pretty much the only thinks in the game that disallows the damage stacking.


If you throwing in grenades to clear a room, its very likely that you dont have more then 2m distance to the point your throwing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 9 2010, 02:41 PM

However, Elemental Damage uses the Damage code of the Element that you are using, so if you choose Smoke, Electricity, Sound (The rest are Physical Damage) it is gong to be Stun Damage, regardless of whether you have Killing Hands activated (Which is a prerequisite of having the Elemental Strike anyways) or not...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 03:35 PM

Nope. I'll grant that perhaps you were exaggerating, but there's simply no reason to throw a *grenade* 2m. Survival instinct error.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 9 2010, 05:38 PM

What if you are tossing it into a room before clearing it? Like SWAT teams do in real life with Flash Bangs. Remember that 2m is 6 Feet.

BTW do the SR rules as written allow you to do that? Open a door, toss a flashbang in, and close the door?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 06:24 PM

A flash bang is not what I was referring to (because it's not suicidal), but yes. Still, 2m is closer than you'd want for that purpose anyway; if you throw it at the wall, it can only scatter into the middle of the room, so aim further!

Opening and closing doors is a Simple Action, so… almost. You could throw and close; personally, I'd throw and move behind the wall, then just move back. It's a free action.

Posted by: Rand Sep 9 2010, 08:29 PM

If a modern police force tried to do that to some SR4 samurai's or adepts, they would get their assess handed to them as the runners moved through the door in the middle of the action so fast that they would be among the cops before they knew it. That is the difference between 3 & 4 IP and 1. (Of course, the rules don't exactly bear out that scenario, but it would be cool as hell to see!)

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 9 2010, 09:38 PM

But then your killing hands turn it to physical and then the element turns it to stun and then your killing hands makes it physical and then you explode from the feedback loop.

I think the real answer is elemental strike is poorly written in virtually every sense and it is very unclear on what it should do, so do what you thinks makes a better game. Though as a note if you grant the AP effects of the elements a physical smoke fist of doom blows up citymasters etc really good. Even 1/2d armor is pretty bad assed for the flaming fists of doom.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 9 2010, 09:40 PM

Well given my movie lore I know in a movie shrapnel does not go through walls when you toss a grenade into a room. After closing the door it will be blown off the hinges while you throw yourself to the ground escaping the fiery(yes fiery) explosion.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 09:42 PM

This is Shadowrun, though; the explosion could be icy.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 9 2010, 09:45 PM

I disagree... Elemental Strike has a given effect, and you cannot increase it with Killing Hands... You EITHER use Killing Hands (Or an Elemental Effect that uses actual Physical Damage) to kill/incapacitate your opponent, or you use an Elemental Effect (Regardless if your Killing hands is on or not; note that ES will still affect the Spirit here) that is Stun based to capture/incapacitate your opponent.... Two very different results here, for Two very different reasons...

There are only 3 Elemental Effects statted that deal Stun Damage, every other one is Physical... so your Elemental Strike using Fire that you used as an example still deals physical damage... and your Elemental Smoke does not "Blow-Up" anything, as it is Stun, and vehicles do not take stun damage, but it is very good for penalizing your opponents, and the Half Armor is Canon for all Elemental Strike Effects...

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 9 2010, 10:01 PM

For reference:

Killing Hands :

This power uses magic to turn unarmed attacks into lethal, physical
damage. When participating in unarmed combat, you may do
normal Stun damage or declare the use of Killing Hands and inflict an
equal amount of Physical damage instead. Killing Hands may be used
with Critical Strike (p. 195).
A Killing Hands attack may also be used against creatures with
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 295) to inflict either Stun or
Physical damage; their defensive bonuses do not count against Killing
Hands. Killing Hands can also be used in astral combat (see Astral
Combat, p. 193).

Elemental Strike:

This power can only be developed by characters who
already possess the Killing Hands power (p. 188, SR4).
Elemental Strike enhances the effects of Killing Hands with an
elemental effect (see pp. 164–165 of this book and pp. 154–
155, SR4). The specific elemental effect must be chosen at the
time the power is bought, though an adept may take this power
more than once to achieve different elemental effects (only
one elemental effect may be applied per strike). While active,
the power wreathes the adept’s hands with a visible effect appropriate
to the chosen element. Activating Elemental Strike
is a Simple Action, after which the effect lasts for (Magic attribute)
Combat Turns. Given the focus it demands, Elemental
Strike may not be combined with Distance Strike.

So what part of enhancing your killing hands implies it turns it off so it goes to stun? In fact it happens when you hit, so I turn on my elemental strike and where does it say I can not have my killing hands on at the same time making it physical damage. If anything since it says it is enhancing your killing hands I'd say the more logical assumption is no matter what the element damage type claims to be(and given that spells ignore it it is hardly an absolute rule and more a default suggestion) it will be physical because it always used in conjunction with killing hands. (the turn stun damage to physical damage power)

As for the armor penetration I have seen many people prefer an interpretation where the elemental effects they were going for is the side effects and not the 1/2 armor part. It is more of what they think the RAI is as opposed to the RAW, since 1/2 armor+side effects for .5 even though you have to activate it vastly outperforms things like penetrating strike.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 10:04 PM

Agreed: the 1/2 armor would be from *replacing* Killing Hands, not enhancing it with an Elemental *effect*. Problem solved.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 9 2010, 10:46 PM

That is easy... The act of enhancing your Killing Hands with an Elemental Strike that inflicts Stun Damage CHANGES the Damge from your Killing hands from Physical to Stun... What part of that do you not get? You are changing the Lethality of your Killing Hands for something Else... it is really just as simple as that...

As for outperforming Penetrating Strike... it is a .25 pp per Level (Max 3) Power... Elemental Strike costs you 1.0 pp (Have to have Killing Hands First)... You tell me which is more powerful...

I see no disconnect here...

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 9 2010, 11:00 PM

Where does it say it changes it? I didn't see anything that said it changed damage type. The way I read it it says it enhanced the effect of my killing hands(the effect is turning stun to physical damage, enhanced would not be turning it back to stun), a more precise reading IMO states that you don't have an option when your elemental strike is going instead of declaring I am using killing hands when you hit it is always on it is pre-declared and you always do physical damage while elemental strike is running. So what part of that don't you get? If you can point me to the place where it says it replaces the damage type of killing hands instead of saying it enhances it I'll agree with you and say I am wrong. As written elemental strike is always doing physical damage since it enhances my turn stun to physical damage power by adding an additional effect, not replacing it, adding to it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 10 2010, 12:33 AM

Elemental Strike is NOT always doing Physical Damage, if you choose the Elementals of Electricity, Smoke or Sound... the damage becomes Stun for those types of Elemental Strike... Says so right in the descriptions; Page, Chapter and Verse...

Description of Elemental Strike says that it enhances the Effects of Killing Hands with an Elemental effect... See Pages 163-165 of SR4A, and Pages 164-165 of SM for the relevant effects of the Elemental Attacks. Specific Effect MUST be chosen... and only one elemental effect may be applied per srtrike.

Perusal of the relevant sections indicates that Elemental Electricity (Electricity Damage) is Stun Damage with Additional Effects. Elemental Smoke is also Stun Damage with additional Effects; and glory be, Elemental Sound is Stun with additional Effects... ALL OTHER ELemental Effects deal Physical Damage. You are trading your Physical Damage potential for Stun Damage + Additional Effects when choosing either Electricity, Sound or Smoke... Not sure why that is so difficult to understand. It says so right in the descriptions of the Power and the Effects themselves... If you use The above three elements, the damage becomes Stun, not Physical...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 10 2010, 05:16 AM

Almost correct, just minor differences. mainly that -1/2 AP is canon for all Elemental Strikes. IIRC, Metal acts as flechette, adding either +2 or +5 AP (I forget which), and Sonic does not use armor at all.

Other than that, pretty much.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 10 2010, 05:56 AM

Incidentally, if you pay careful attention to the RAW for "Blast In A Confined Space" even Flashbangs can be HYPERBOLICALLY SUPER-LETHAL in certain (not that uncommon) circumstances.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Sep 10 2010, 04:46 PM

And yet my killing hands turns stun damage to physical. So even after looking at it and seeing that electricity is stun, my killing hands makes it physical, because that is what killing hands does, and it never said anywhere that my ability to do so stopped. You are inserting lines like "You are trading your Physical Damage potential for Stun Damage + Additional Effects when choosing either Electricity, Sound or Smoke" That line never exists in the power description, it never says I am trading in my turn stun to physical damage power. I am trading in absolutely nothing, I gained the additional ability to shock hand you but still have the ability to turn stun damage to physical, that is kind of what enhance means. enhance does not mean trade in for. So even when adding a stun based elemental effect I retain my ability to turn stun damage to physical, unless you are claiming it is no longer an unarmed strike which killing hands works on. But last time I checked elemental strike still is unarmed and only works for unarmed.

The elemental effects section gives general rules on elemental magical damage, it is not the elemental strike table but general rules. General rules can be overridden by specific rules, in this case the specific rule of killing hands turning stun damage to physical. If it said see PG 145 the elemental strike table you would be right on because that would then be the specific rule. Or heck if it ever said anywhere that elemental effects override or replace your killing hands effect instead of saying enhance.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 10 2010, 04:52 PM

This is, of course, why many SWAT teams use two people for a flashbang entry. One guy to pop the door, the other guy to toss the flashbang. Generally they don't close the door again, though, they just duck back behind the wall and shield their eyes for a moment.


-karma

Posted by: Mäx Sep 11 2010, 08:01 AM

Totally agree.
Thanks for explaining that so much better then i ever could.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 11 2010, 11:42 AM

First, elemental strike itself is completely weird. Not just the lightning version; all of elemental strike is weird.

Your hands are wreathed in fire now, so your hand strikes do Fire damage instead of normal kinetic impact damage? That's rather weird too, don't you think?
Basically Elemental Strike converts the effective impact of your strikes into a surge of elemental power; this is different from say, Shock Gloves; this is the only electric melee attack that does use Strength.

I looked it up, and the result surprised me;

So it's clearly in addition to whatever Killing Hands happens to do, which is only two things:
- Option to convert Stun to Physical damage
- Bypass ItNW

It is weird, but there is the precedent of Lightning Bolt doing Physical damage.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2010, 04:10 PM

At this point, all that I can say is that I disagree with you, and move along... We have both presented our interpretations, and, apparently, we will never convince each other of the opposing point of view...