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Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 6 2010, 11:02 AM

The rule for suppressive fire in the core book says, to simplify the rules, they consider the recoil modifier on the shooter and the wide burst modifier on the target to cancel each others. But if you have recoil reduction system, says I have 5 RC on an AR, and I do a suppressive fire, do I ignore that recoil reduction, do you add it as a positive modifier for the shooter (+5 dice for the shoot) or as a negative modifier on the targets (-5 dice on the defence) ?

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 6 2010, 11:05 AM

You ignore it completely.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 6 2010, 12:44 PM

Yeah, with Suppressive Fire, you're just using the fully-automatic firearm as a lead hose. You're not really caring if you hit a single target so much as an wide area.

Yes, you're still fighting the recoil, but not as much as you normally would, so Recoil Compensation doesn't really help as much either.

BTW, Auto-Shotguns FTW!

Posted by: Dumori Sep 6 2010, 12:50 PM

You actually IIRC ignore all modifiers by RAW though I'll have to re-read to be 100% so you roll atribute+skill+any skill modifiers(adpet powers or reflex recorder) and ignore the rest. Even if it would be in or our of your favour.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 03:14 PM

I came up another weird thing with suppressive fire. It fires 20 shots, and last from one action phase of the firing character, to ne beginning of the next action phase for the character. So effectively, to maintain a suppressed zone for one combat turn, a 1IP character will use 20shots, and a 4IP character will have to use 80 shots....

Unless I've missed something, it doesn't feel right.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 8 2010, 03:16 PM

Higher IP characters change the laws of physics. It's one of the beefs I have with the burstfire system.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 8 2010, 03:18 PM

There's Elves and Magic, and you complain about the Laws of Physics?

Sorry man, the Rule Of Cool has long since overridden that.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 8 2010, 03:22 PM

Yes. I can accept Elves, Dragons, and Magic, but bullets leaving a gun faster simply because a guy has a better twitch factor than another guy? NO SIR.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 03:29 PM

Well, I could say I found a situation where having 1IP is better than having 4

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 03:34 PM

Free action to dial your Wires down.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 8 2010, 03:35 PM

Being a Gun Nut, I can understand this.

'Course, SR doesn't really take Cyclic Rate into consideration anyhow...

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 03:55 PM

Good point, and if it's an Improved Reflex 3 ?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 03:57 PM

Sucks to be you.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 04:10 PM

Posted by: CanRay Sep 8 2010, 04:26 PM

What, can't turn off your magic?

Posted by: Warlordtheft Sep 8 2010, 04:35 PM

Same here. Though my thought is that if the PC or NPC delays his next action, the suppressing fire continues.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 06:40 PM

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but the way I understand it, unless specified, physad power are in effect round the clock.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 06:47 PM

This is fun, I decide to delay my action, so the suppressive fire continue, but I'm not using bullets anymore

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 06:50 PM

Obviously, you'd want to use GM suppressive fire on people who tried to be clever and abuse it.

Posted by: Ears Sep 8 2010, 06:59 PM

The good thing about 4 IPs and a FA weapon is that you can, while whining about the stupid suppessive fire rules, hit 12 targets using split full bursts...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 07:02 PM

Er. You can *fire at* 12 targets, if they're standing in groups. You might hit some of them.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 8 2010, 07:23 PM

How does suppression fire work with that full auto shotgun on wide choke?
Just wondered since you can catch up to 3 (IIRC) targets per shot with a wide choke, would you make multiple tests to hit each target of suppression fire?

Reasoning is thus
You fire supression fire into the area where A, B and C are standing.
First you check to see if yout hit A, but because you are using wide choke you also check against B and C.
Second you check to hit B (for the supression effect), but again, because of the wide choke you test against A and C also.
Third you check against C (for the supression), but becasue of the choke you also check against A and B.

This would net out with a number of tests to hit each target equal to the number of targets in the cone, up to a max of 3 checks per target.

Oh, and then everyone soaks all the damage except the hacker, he takes 1 stun.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 07:24 PM

Nope. But the AA16 *does* get 'efficient suppression', a nice little bonus.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 8 2010, 07:31 PM

OK, and because I feel retarded today. If you modd a rocket launcher to be full auto and use it for supression fire, does each shot still scatter?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 07:36 PM

There aren't 'shots' while suppressing. Assuming it's possible with rockets (for one thing, you'd need an ammo cap of 20, I assume?), you simple 'suppress an area'.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 07:37 PM

Lol, I've been imagining that, and I can't stop laughing !!

But in case of a FA rocket launcher, my first question would even be, how do you rule even a single burst

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 07:40 PM

Yes, certainly the sane thing is to simply not allow it at all. Even bursts of grenades are problematic, but rockets are expensive. The only canon example is the Fleche Hail; it makes separate rolls for each rocket (multiple shots). They each impose the -2 multiple target penalty, and it's not BF or FA at all, so no suppression.

It's not clear that you can mod a launcher to do it, either:

Possibly that includes rocket launchers.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 8 2010, 07:48 PM

I agree that it would be problematic with the rockets, but I think you hit on something with gernades. Doesn't the 1 launcher use a magazine/clip? I think this would be a crowd pleaser.

Hmmmm need to take a look for Shadowwars.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 07:50 PM

Well, go search for the last time someone statted it up. The Mk19 is usually mentioned, although it's more like a HMG with explosive shells.

Given the balance of SR4 equipment, I'd rule grenades to be 'exotic ammunition'; anything not firing normal bullets from normal mechanisms.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 8 2010, 07:54 PM

How funny, I wasn't reading the Auto Cannon recoil thread, but they are both drifting down the same path.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 07:54 PM

I'd say id does. And I would also rule out the suppressive fire if you don't have 20 shot available, though I would consider it if you have 20 shot available in two weapon you'd be holding in two hands.

Posted by: sabs Sep 8 2010, 07:56 PM

ArmTech MGL-12: This bullpup-configuration model is popular,
since it fires in semi-auto mode and carries more minigrenades than
its competitors.
ArmTech MGL-12 Grenade — SA — 12 © 10F 2,000¥
+FA Mod
+extended clip +4 ammo (unless you can talk your GM into the Drum, in which case 50 or 100 ammo)

Although really, BF mdoe might be enough of a mod. As a Gm do you rule that it shoots 3-9 grenades that each roll scatter?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 8 2010, 08:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Avr_rztUAA






-karma

Posted by: sabs Sep 8 2010, 08:03 PM

Expendables
and the answer is. REALLY SCARY WELL

Chunky Salsa aint got nothing on this.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 08:06 PM

Assuming you rule that BF is possible on a grenade launcher, I'd keep it simple: all three impact as one, using the normal Narrow/Wide rules for bursts. Possibly, you could rule that only Narrow *or* Wide is possible (either they all impact roughly the same spot, or there's som GM-fiat 'saturation' effect).

Just because no one wants to make all those scatter rolls.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 08:07 PM

Exept that in that case, it's not rounds, but HE slugs (thoses new things someone posted about somewhere in dumpshock)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 08:10 PM

Which *is* chunky salsa.

Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 08:37 PM

Well, yeah, I can't argue with that huhu

Posted by: Social Reject Sep 8 2010, 08:42 PM

I'm sure somebody does, lol.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 8 2010, 09:10 PM

Lot of dice meh I play a 40k where I regularly roll 200+ a turn 80 for the scatter of 20 rockets isn't that bad.

Posted by: Social Reject Sep 8 2010, 09:25 PM

40K was the first thing I thought of too.

But given the nature of 4th edition's already giant dice pools, it seems like rolling a few more won't chap too many hides. Especially if it leads to bad guy cheese soup.

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 9 2010, 12:38 PM

Something to bear in mind re: IPs and delaying actions is that suppressive fire is not only a concern to those who enter the area between the shooter's actions but also those who were there to begin with.

So a 1IP character can cover an area with 20 bullets until his action phase in the next combat round. Everyone there at the start must roll to dodge (Reaction + Edge) and so must everyone moving in the area for the duration. Conversely, a 4IP character would spend 80 bullets to achieve the same duration, but on every action he continues the suppression everyone within the area has to make the test again.

Example:

IP1: Suppressive fire commences – Goon runs into and across the danger zone which requires a dodging roll, but finds his route out blocked.
IP2: Suppressive fire continues – Goon must make a second roll for being exposed. Goon runs to a door, requiring a third roll, but finds it locked.
IP3: Suppressive fire continues – Goon must make a fourth roll. Goon manages to find a way out of the fire arc, requiring a fifth roll.
IP4: Suppressive fire continues with fire arc adjusted to catch Goon – Goon must make a sixth roll. Goon dives behind cover, requiring a seventh roll.

A 1IP character would have forced only three dodge rolls – one for moving in, one for moving within and one for moving out. If another character had run in one side and out the other in the same action they'd have been forced to make only one roll.

So more IPs pays off by giving more chances to hit, allowing a change in fire arc and allowing a premature ceasefire should the need arise. Compared to the extra ammo expenditure, that's still well worth it.

As for realism the whole rate of fire thing being dependent on IPs is indeed somewhat unsatisfactory, but in the case of suppressive fire it actually does make a bit of sense. I don't think suppressive fire is meant to mean firing blindly left, right and centre. I see it as more controlled than that, firing at places that are likely to have people in them or people who intend to be in them very soon. You're not careless about where you aim, just not thinking too hard about timing or accuracy, stuff like that. So a character with more IPs is able to get more in because they can switch their aim that much quicker.

Think about it. If you're covering an area do you just wave a constantly-discharging barrel around in circles, making interesting patterns and trying to write your name like it were a sparkler? Or would you concentrate your bullets in variable bursts on the disconnected empty spaces where people might actually be at some point?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 9 2010, 03:00 PM

Though the rules for the Fleche Hail Rocket Launcher do allow you to Ripple fire all (AS many as you want to take a penalty for) of the rockets in the pod... Thisnk of it as a MLRS... Fire 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 20 (Whatever) with the incrementing penalties of course... but you can effectively "Suppress" an area by picking a specific target, and letting the scatter deal with the increasing area of effect... (At the worst, you are going to get a scatter of 4d6 per rocket from initial point of impact (with 0 Net Hits), which you could reduce to 2d6 with various targeting seekers/airburst links)... Seems like suppression fire to me...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 03:33 PM

Except it's not.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 9 2010, 05:03 PM

Adept riggers love that weapon soak magic and initiate grade worth of negatives. You can fire 6+ missiles no penalty might eat you nu-yen though. Still also by RAW you can have any 20 missiles so you don't need to load all of one type I think I've just spotted how to make fighter bombers work right in SR4 also you can slap that on a Nimrod at a push.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 9 2010, 05:23 PM

As far as I know you don't even make an attack roll for suppressive fire, you just spray and pray? Not getting hit is the burden of the character moving through the area.

Of course I didn't read the rule that carefully.

This seems like it would take FORVER to resolve. Rolling to-hit, scatter direction, and scatter damage on every shot?

It also sounds AWESOME AS SHIT.

Rockets and missiles are one of the things I most frequently hand-wave in my game, but that is because every time players have used them (a rarity, as none of my PCs are specc'd for that) it has been necessary for them to "work like in the movies" for the PCs to survive.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 9 2010, 09:38 PM

If it walks like a Duck, and Talks Like a Duck, It might as well be a Duck...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 09:47 PM

But it doesn't. Suppressive Fire uses 20 rounds (subject to special rules), is a Success Test, and creates a static area effect that any number of targets can be damaged by. Multiple rockets are single-rocket attacks, Opposed Tests, and create transient area blasts. You can 'suppress' with it, but you can 'suppress' with harsh language. I'm just talking about the rules keywords, here.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 9 2010, 09:49 PM

I get what you are saying... but in the end, the effect on the ground is really not all that much different... But you are very correct... the Rules/Mechanics that get you to that point are indeed two entirely different things...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 09:55 PM

Also, MLRS attacks are just vastly cooler. It's insulting to equate them to something a pistol can do.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 9 2010, 10:46 PM

Heheheh... Yeah, this is true...

Posted by: ZeroPoint Sep 9 2010, 11:33 PM

While I like the delayed action idea, what i've ruled at my table is that using suppressive fire expends 20 rounds per combat round, regardless of the number of IPs a character has. A character will initiate a suppressive fire action on one IP, as normal and on subsequent IPs, can use a complex action 'maintain suppressive fire' and allow them to adjust the field of fire. It really comes out to about the same thing except the player isn't forced to empty a clip after 2 passes, reload, and empty another clip...all within 3 seconds.

I've been thinking about ways to address the short/long/full burst rules as well, but ...havn't really come up with a way yet that doesn't impact to heavily.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 11:38 PM

Agreed. 'Maintain' seems like the best option, because it also allows the Wired character to 'abort' the suppression and do something else. No free lunch, but no penalty either.

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 10 2010, 12:30 PM

You do make an attack roll but it's treated like a success test and the recoil is waivered.

Given that the successes on this test add to the damage value and is used as the dodgin threshold implies that you don't spray and pray.
Besides, 20 bullets spread over a 10-meter-wide target area over three seconds would have almost no chance of hitting someone.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 10 2010, 02:05 PM

That particular scene, it's shot rounds.

He doesn't switch to the HE rounds til later when he needs to clear out the towers.

The funny thing is, the Frag-12 ammo has been kicking around since 2005. It just keeps getting re-posted as "new" because people keep finding out about it and thinking they're the first to mention it.



-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 10 2010, 02:24 PM

Don't go using logic and math, Aerospider. I agree that your character is 'trying to hit people', though.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2010, 03:29 PM

Net hits for Suppressive Fire DO NOT ADD to the Damage of the Weapon... all they do is increase the threshold to avoid the base damage of the weapon...