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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Assault canon recoil
Posted by: Aerospider Sep 7 2010, 12:46 AM
The Arsenal description of the Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon describes "massive recoil".
Where?
Have I missed something, or is there in fact no recoil at all unless you shell out for the semi-automatic, in which case it's 1 point of recoil doubled to 2 for being a heavy weapon? I don't get it.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 01:55 AM
You haven't missed it. Maybe the "massive recoil" is what made it stock a SS weapon.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 01:59 AM
That, and you can't exactly fire it one-handed while running, for example. Those restrictions are basically from recoil, just not Recoil.
Posted by: jakephillips Sep 7 2010, 02:08 AM
You are correct.
Posted by: Kraegor Sep 7 2010, 02:09 AM
Always look at converting to a mini-gun. Much better bang for the buck! 
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 7 2010, 02:10 AM
A Minigun Shotgun... Too brutal to contemplate, but nothing creates more bang for your buck in my opinion...
Posted by: Kruger Sep 7 2010, 02:44 AM
The massive recoil is flavor text, unfortunately, and an attempt to appeal to the common sense of the sillier players who might want to treat it as anything other than the massive anti-material weapon it is. Unfortunately the game doesn't include mechanics to accurately model such weapons.
Posted by: jaellot Sep 7 2010, 03:06 AM
Another thing is the Concealability is less than nil. Of course if a character is using an assualt cannon, stealth isn't on the menu...
Posted by: Darkeus Sep 7 2010, 03:16 AM
This is where GM common sense comes into play. Of course that thing can kick you to teh ground if not held right and it is not hard to come up with a quick rule to go with the fluff.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 7 2010, 03:55 AM
There's an optional rule in Arsenal that firing large weapons like that deals stun damage to the firer unless their body is over a certain number. Or something like that.
Posted by: Hagga Sep 7 2010, 04:32 AM
Stating they can fire without a gyromount if they have body 8 or more, and must take stun dv equal to half the dv of the weapon.
Posted by: Stingray Sep 7 2010, 05:01 AM
That is OPTIONAL rule for heavy weapons..
(rule says is need Body AND Str be 8 or more fire/carry Heavy Weapons)
(That rule means saying GOOBYE! to Ares Alpha/Colt M23..)
Posted by: Kruger Sep 7 2010, 05:37 AM
No it wouldn't, because an under-barrel grenade launcher is technically a weapon accessory, not a weapon itself.
Denoting what a "Heavy Weapon" actually is, is something that Arsenal should have specified.
Utilizing this rule simply means exercising common sense. It was horribly underwritten. Anyone should be able to fire a "heavy weapon" using a bipod from the prone or having it braced on something without risking damage. But, at the same time, a shoulder fired grenade launcher isn't some kind of horribly unwieldy beast that would need a gyro mount and shouldn't fall under the same rule as a machinegun or an assault cannon.
Posted by: Mäx Sep 7 2010, 06:24 AM
Yeah, that rule is so badly written i can't comprehend how it got added to the book.
Considering that its saying you need superhuman strenght and body to fire a pistol grenade launcher, makes that rule silly beyond belief 
Posted by: Hagga Sep 7 2010, 06:49 AM
(rule says is need Body AND Str be 8 or more fire/carry Heavy Weapons)
(That rule means saying GOOBYE! to Ares Alpha/Colt M23..)
Yes, I'm aware of that. I was responding to the post directly above mine. The one saying "An optional rule in arsenal.."
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 7 2010, 08:06 AM
how do you figure?
Trolls can do that just fine O.o
Posted by: Sengir Sep 7 2010, 09:42 AM
There is no rule against using flechettes in regular firearms...
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 01:18 PM
Not everyone's a troll, Stahlseele, and there are plenty of trolls not big and strong enough to do that. 
Posted by: Dumori Sep 7 2010, 02:25 PM
Not quite you could slap on a scope and a silencer and have a pretty nasty sniper just using heavy weapons not long arms plus gauss-rifle. That's likely a better build full stop with the some being able to be uses like an 250 round AR with no recoil. in fact heavy weapons almost covers all your combat bases bar small and concealable so grab pistols as well if needed automatic could work too but a load of redundancy.
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 7 2010, 02:28 PM
*shrugs* not my problem, i play big and strong trolls for fun like this ^^
Posted by: StealthSigma Sep 7 2010, 03:44 PM
I've always considered the assault cannons to be sniper rifles for use against armored vehicles (or trolls).
Posted by: sabs Sep 7 2010, 03:46 PM
I think of them as 50 Cal Sniper Rifles.. like this one:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.firstdefense.com/html/3D50.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.firstdefense.com/html/arms_and_ammunution.htm&h=440&w=890&sz=25&tbnid=KS-obqLP6WnL5M:&tbnh=72&tbnw=146&prev=/images%3Fq%3D50%2Bcal&zoom=1&q=50+cal&usg=__lLSOO50YSJSHWPOjEs50ZyTI3KM=&sa=X&ei=NV6GTMSlDMH7lwfpoOTxDg&ved=0CC0Q9QEwAg
Posted by: Matsci Sep 7 2010, 03:54 PM
I consider assult cannons 20mm+ Anti-tank rifles, liek the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahti_L-39 or the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_97_20_mm_anti-tank_rifle.
Massive, Impractical, and about the smallest caliber you are going to find explosive shells as standard (which makes it a cannon)
Posted by: Kruger Sep 7 2010, 04:10 PM
Pretty much.
http://www.vincelewis.net/20mm.html (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXLRYf9EV2Y ) Of course, this puppy is a two man (one troll I guess) carry, lol
http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_200481522.aspx
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 05:21 PM
Haha, Stahlseele. I didn't say it was your problem, but obviously not all trolls and basically no one else can 1-hand/unbraced fire an assault cannon.
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 7 2010, 05:25 PM
but then, if you're allowed to have that kind of fun, nothing much else matters anyway ^^
Posted by: StealthSigma Sep 7 2010, 05:27 PM
http://www.vincelewis.net/20mm.html (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXLRYf9EV2Y ) Of course, this puppy is a two man (one troll I guess) carry, lol
http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_200481522.aspx
If you look at range increments as a function of power and accuracy it also works out as well.
Category - Short - Medium - Long - Extreme
L. Machine Gun - 75 - 200 - 400 - 800
Sporting Rifle - 100 - 250 - 500 - 750
H. Machine Gun - 80 - 250 - 750 - 1200
Assault Cannon - 100 - 300 - 750 - 1500
Sniper Rifle - 150 - 350 - 800 - 1500
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 7 2010, 08:59 PM
Remember, folks, this was the original inspiration for the Shadowrun assault cannon:
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2376/600pxvlcsnap205401.jpg
"Cobra assault cannon, state-of-the-art bang bang!"
-karma
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 7 2010, 09:16 PM
Still looks like tha Barret Again . .
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:31 PM
Scaled-up, though, which is a big difference. The key Assault Cannon difference is the explosive ('light tank') shells, as someone mentioned earlier.
Posted by: Shrike30 Sep 7 2010, 10:04 PM
I've always envisioned assault cannons as being somewhere in the .50 caliber/14.5mm range. Technical advancement in an attempt to improve the old 85 pound M2HB has already given us a 50-odd pound, .50 cal machinegun with recoil comparable to that of a .30 cal M240B (albeit at 260 RPM), in the form of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM312. Add another 65 years of development time and more ceramic/composite/carbon-fiber parts, I don't see a reason why that weight (especially with the replacement of the heavy optics/computer unit with a much more compact smartlink and some optimization for being shoulder-fired rather than tripod-mounted) wouldn't get down into the 30-35 pound range... something that a cybered human or burly ork/troll should be able to fire from the shoulder without serious problems.
Lessee here... assault cannon, add Burst Fire (to represent a low ROF like the aforementioned 260 RPM/~4.3 RPS... maybe even allow a Long Burst as a complex action to indicate it's technically capable of autofire), an extended magazine, and a personalized grip as mods, then a Top-mount Smartgun Link, a sling, a shoulder shock pad, and an Underbarrel foregrip, and you've got a decent cyborg battle rifle with enough recoil comp that someone burly enough to use it (Str 6 is where I'm thinking it'd start to be manageable) can fire a couple of bursts with only a -2 penalty on the second burst (4 points of RC including strength, first round is free, 1 point uncompensated x2 for heavy weapon). Gets that extra punch you need for dealing with Hardened armor...
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 10:16 PM
But there's already a .50 cal Barrett sniper rifle in the Sniper Rifles section. The art and fluff imply that it's more than that, plus special ammo. Otherwise, you'd just load AC ammo into your sniper rifle, right?
Posted by: Summerstorm Sep 7 2010, 10:33 PM
I always thought the assault cannons are based on the WWII anti-tank rifles or recoilless rifles. 20 mm is a nice caliber for those.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 10:36 PM
Well, not a recoilless. That's a whole nother animal.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 7 2010, 11:14 PM
It IS the Barret.
The Robocop movie used a Barret as their "Cobra Assault Rifle".
The original SR assault cannon was inspired by the Cobra. Similar to how the original Predator heavy pistol was inspired by the Robocop Auto-9.
The Barrett didn't actually appear in Shadowrun as the AMR/Sniper Rifle we have now til a bit later. By which point the Assault Cannon had been more or less re-envisioned as the monster gun we have currently.
-karma
Posted by: Kruger Sep 7 2010, 11:40 PM
Yeah, the Model 121 was Fields of Fire. Quite amusing commentary that suggested the weapon's silencer could make it completely silent, lol.
Posted by: Matsci Sep 7 2010, 11:50 PM
Honestly, I see them as something much closer to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_XM109
Single Shot, throws a 25mm cannon shell (explosive!) up to 2000 meters, and has a semi-auto capacity, with 4 round box. The XM312 is basically one rechambered for .50 cal.
Besides, most .50 cal automatic weapons are HMGs, so that puts .50 cal at 7P, AP -3. (HMGs are defined as between 12-15mm)
The thing is, the Barret 121 used to only be able to fire a special subsonic ex-ex, which was factored into it's stats. It wasn't special in that it was absurdly powerful, it was special because it was absurdly silent.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 8 2010, 12:14 AM
Sure, but a Shotgun has a higher base damage than MOST regular weapons... 7p (9pf) for the win... In a minigun with suppressive fire that goes to 10p (12pf)... so much more effective than a similarly modded Heavy Pistol Round... and is equal to MMG's in base damage...
Anyways... I think that a Shotgun-Minigun is cooler than any other option out there...
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 8 2010, 12:15 AM
Yeah, think 20mm, 25mm or 30mm Cannons... Devastating...
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 01:06 AM
A shotgun-minigun isn't an option.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 8 2010, 01:31 AM
But it would be glorious indeed if it were...
And technologically speaking, not really all that difficult, though it would require designing it from the ground up of course...
Posted by: Ed_209a Sep 8 2010, 01:57 AM
Even though it came along long after SR, I think this is the best matchup for the SR assault cannon.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m109-ampr-pics.htm
More from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_XM109.
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 8 2010, 02:16 AM
I am scared of this gun and I am scared of you. I am also going to give this exact ridiculous frankengun to the Cyberzombie who is essentially the final boss of my campaign. : )
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 02:27 AM
It's a Heavy Weapon, so you'll need to be burlier than just Strength 6 if you're using that rule. Also, can't use sling and shock pad together (kinda hip pad territory anyway; still incompatible). Don't forget that the Panther has integral smartgun, though.
Still, if you really need 12P/-5… only 135¥ (16F) per burst! 
Cheaper and easier to find than AV rockets, I guess, once you fire it enough to overcome the initial investment. (A Striker for 1000¥ also needs +1000¥ for the rocket, right?)
On the other hand, (narrow) burst fire isn't getting you through anyone's armor, net hits are (and that huge AP, of course). So, you're only getting -2 to their Dodge pool from that burst. :/
The Vigorous certainly looks more like the Barrett than the Panther does; I think it's fluffed as 'more traditional' or whatever.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 8 2010, 03:12 AM
A cyborg wielding that weapon is likely to have a gyromount as well.
-karma
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 03:15 AM
A cyborg should be driving a tank anyway.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Sep 8 2010, 03:24 AM
PAC images available in SSC p60, Cannon Companion p34, or http://www.ambient.ca/cpunk/shadowguns/panthercannon.gif (http://www.land-of-kain.de/shadowrun/meatmarket/gen5/equip/panther.jpg). No trace of Barrett in the design that I can see.
~J
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 8 2010, 03:25 AM
I did mention it's a cyberzombie, right? No lack for Strength/Heavy weapons and he does indeed have a gyromount and his current weapon is an FN-Mag 5.
I'm just gonna upgrade to Shrike's autocannon. Wouldn't be fair to turn it on the PCs too much but turning elite mooks into a red mist should make the point of how horrifyingly deadly this guy is.
Posted by: Kruger Sep 8 2010, 03:27 AM
~J
The Panther was the second assault cannon and debuted in the Street Samurai Catalog. The original was just called "Assault Cannon" and was in the core book.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 05:47 AM
Modify a grenade launcher for full auto, with a smartlink, and gas vent 2. Add a Airburst Link. I'm not sure exactly what would happen (increase DV? actually roll scatter per grenade?), and with current scatter rules it's not that important, I guess. Except when you decide to use Suppresive Fire.
You can do the same with a Missile Launcher, by the way. The Fleshe Hail Barrage missile launcher is a good choice.
Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 06:01 AM
Cant add a gasvent to a grenadelauncher.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 8 2010, 06:59 AM
Eh. Fill in your own recoil compensation then. It's been a while since I theorized that weapon (~+8 months).
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 8 2010, 07:25 AM
Even if RAW allows a full-auto grenade launcher I wouldn't. Not even for my cyberzombie. : )
And yes, yes I know they exist in real life (Mk. 19), but they're lightyears away from man portable and I can't imagine any amount of futuristic shadowrunny unobtanium would make them so.
Full auto rocket launcher is not possible unless you are like a boat or a plane.
Posted by: Mäx Sep 8 2010, 08:02 AM
Man portable they may not be, but Troll portable is totally different think.
Posted by: StealthSigma Sep 8 2010, 11:23 AM
I'm just gonna upgrade to Shrike's autocannon. Wouldn't be fair to turn it on the PCs too much but turning elite mooks into a red mist should make the point of how horrifyingly deadly this guy is.
Sounds like something I would use an Ares Thunderstruck to tackle.
Posted by: darthmord Sep 8 2010, 07:31 PM
And yes, yes I know they exist in real life (Mk. 19), but they're lightyears away from man portable and I can't imagine any amount of futuristic shadowrunny unobtanium would make them so.
Full auto rocket launcher is not possible unless you are like a boat or a plane.
The full auto grenade launcher they showed on an episode of Future Weapons (a year or two ago) certainly looked man-portable...
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 8 2010, 07:43 PM
Well, technically even the old Mk 19 is classified as "man-portable".
Meaning, it can be transported by soldiers without the aid of mechanical assistance.
-karma
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 07:47 PM
Right. The term is interesting, but possibly inaccurate as used in this thread.
1. Items designed to be carried as an integral part of individual, crew-served, or team equipment of the dismounted soldier in conjunction with assigned duties. Upper weight limit: approximately 14 kilograms (31 pounds.)
2. In land warfare, equipment which can be carried by one man over long distance without serious degradation of the performance of normal duties.
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA439918
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 8 2010, 08:11 PM
In Shadowrun, everything up to and including motorcycles is Troll portable.
Or Drake portable. Or Centaur portable.
Posted by: Social Reject Sep 8 2010, 08:14 PM
And yes, yes I know they exist in real life (Mk. 19), but they're lightyears away from man portable and I can't imagine any amount of futuristic shadowrunny unobtanium would make them so.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/images/m32/M32.jpg
Then if you imagine that they will be able to make the grenades smaller than 40mm...
Horribly munchkin. But when has that ever stopped anybody?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 08:17 PM
I thought they already made 20mm (and 25) grenades, like decades ago. Hell, with airburst. That's not the point.
Posted by: Social Reject Sep 8 2010, 08:22 PM
They do. I just meant imagine in conjunction with a weapon like the one in the picture and with full automatic capability.
As to 25mm programmable grenades? Well, the tech isn't perfect yet, but with fifty years or so and a Smartlink, a system like this could be brutal:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/imgs/heckler-and-koch-hk-xm25.jpg
Posted by: Dumori Sep 8 2010, 09:15 PM
Right now we seam to have micro grenades effective the size of a 50. round lookign at our GL pistol. Also I think theres a 20 round drum GL already its a fav of mine to add under my MGs.
Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 8 2010, 11:05 PM
AA-12 Automatic shotgun, loaded with HE Frag 12 slugs...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqucgAIFEyM&feature=related
Effectively a full auto mini grenade launcher...
Posted by: Neraph Sep 9 2010, 04:24 AM
That's a full-auto shotgun, with virtually no recoil. Pretty cool.
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 9 2010, 05:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqucgAIFEyM&feature=related
Effectively a full auto mini grenade launcher...
Oh yes, I forgot about this.
Someone should stat Frag-12 for Shadowrun. : )
Would it to Frag Grenades be as Stick'n'Shock is to tasers?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 05:38 AM
It might just be EX-Ex, though. It depends on if there's a radius. The Frag-12 comes in regular, extra crispy (frag), and armor-piercing. The only one *maybe* intended to have a radius is the fragmentation one, I would guess. Details aren't instantly available online, so I gave up.
Posted by: bluedao Sep 9 2010, 05:59 AM
Did some one say plasma... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1q_rRicAwI
Right now their prototype ship mounted weapons but I can see them being troll size by 2072.
Also keep in mind allot of the modern restrictions go out the window thanks to magic. I'm talking magically super cooled materials for starters.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 9 2010, 06:13 AM
Just because the scene is damn nifty, even it they exaggerate things a bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj_QxpJh8JE
-karma
Posted by: Neraph Sep 9 2010, 06:50 AM
Right now their prototype ship mounted weapons but I can see them being troll size by 2072.
Also keep in mind allot of the modern restrictions go out the window thanks to magic. I'm talking magically super cooled materials for starters.
That's not plasma - that's a railgun. It's just being propelled funny.
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/44894
Posted by: Ed_209a Sep 9 2010, 01:24 PM
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/44894
It is a railgun, and all that flame was from plasma, it just isn't a plasma weapon. The plasma is like the muzzle flash of a conventional gun.
All railguns have some plasma going on because of the tremendous current arcing from the rails to the projectile. It is enough current that most railguns damage themselves as you fire them. Many are rebuilt after each shot, because the rail is so damaged from the plasma arcing.
For this reason, military railguns are possible right now, just not practical. (Because those picky tank commanders want more than one shot between overhauls...)
Posted by: Dumori Sep 9 2010, 04:22 PM
All railguns have some plasma going on because of the tremendous current arcing from the rails to the projectile. It is enough current that most railguns damage themselves as you fire them. Many are rebuilt after each shot, because the rail is so damaged from the plasma arcing.
For this reason, military railguns are possible right now, just not practical. (Because those picky tank commanders want more than one shot between overhauls...)
Yeah rail erosion is a bitch the most logical idea was some thing like the metal storm system stack ammo and rails in one load so the last shot also kills the rails but that's only practical for rifle sized systems and currently getting the power to a system like that is difficult to say the least. Then there are ammo feed issues. They are still just possible as is, in a naval engagement with the range and pure power plus ships could have the ability to rearm the rails but it's still not that good.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 9 2010, 04:31 PM
Ahh, I misinterpreted what he was saying.
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