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Posted by: yesferatu Sep 7 2010, 08:34 PM

So here's a stupid thought I had this weekend...

Wouldn't a reinforced combination lock (like a bike lock) be preferable to maglocks/passcodes?

There's no way to pick it or hack it. You have to be in the room with it and turn it by hand.

If you had like a 10 digit combo lock, what the hell could a hacker do to it?

You could always cut through it or blow it up or whatever, but the same can be said for more traditional locks.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 08:39 PM

There is *not* no way to pick or hack those kinds of locks.

Posted by: Angelone Sep 7 2010, 08:44 PM

I agree that they would be preferable in that you have to be there to get around them, but all it takes is a bolt cutter. Plus they are so out of style, the retro look was so last year.

Posted by: Catadmin Sep 7 2010, 08:47 PM

Yeah, but if your runners don't have the right tools or skills, a lock like that could really throw off their stride and add some spice to the run. @=)

There's something to be said for "old fashioned security."

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 08:47 PM

Anyway, yesferatu, it's not a stupid thought:

Don't forget that 'dumb' locks are indeed *less* secure than more advanced maglocks.

Breaking a Lock is (Locksmith + Agility, Rating, 1 Combat Turn)

Cracking a Maglock is:
Open the case (Hardware + Logic, Rating*2, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Anti-Tamper Hardware + Logic, Rating 1-4, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Keypad/Cardreader (Hardware + Logic, Rating*2, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Biometrics.

Finally, you *can't* use bolt-cutters on a maglock.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 7 2010, 08:49 PM

Monofilament is more man-portable.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 7 2010, 09:19 PM

Monofilament/Dikote'd Cyber-Spurs or a simple Vibro Knife or something like that.
Cut out the complete lock and call it a day. Or concentrated corrosive acids. Or Magic.
Or go for the other weak spot of a door. The Hinges.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:28 PM

Yes. But you can't use bolt-cutters on a maglock.

Besides, cutting out a lock isn't easy, even with the right tools; a Vibro Knife wouldn't be easy, and do "Monofilament/Dikote'd Cyber-Spurs" exist? Security doors have Armor 8 (double that to resist damage) and Structure 9.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 7 2010, 09:34 PM

Of course they do exist.
Or well, at least in SR3 they did.
Also, technically, you do not need to cout out the complete lock.
Only the bolt which keeps the door shut. And as the door needs to open, there's allready a kink in the armor, through which with application of considerable force(read: let the troll do it) the bolt can be reached.
Place tip of edged implement in the knack between door and wall, tell the troll to "kick on this end here with all your might" and you are done.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:39 PM

Perhaps, but there aren't rules for that. The rules are make melee attacks against Armor*2, and you *must* scored more boxes of damage than the Structure.

You're right that there are both RAW and roleplaying options, but this thread is Locks vs. Maglocks. Not that mechanical combo locks exist, either; in SR4, it's key locks.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 7 2010, 09:46 PM

You can, however, spoof a maglock with a passkey. Time required? 1 card swipe.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:46 PM

Yup. And they're Forbidden and expensive, and don't work if there's also biometrics, and don't work if it's a keypad lock.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 7 2010, 09:55 PM

I'll give you the biometrics part, but there are keypad sequencers as well.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 7 2010, 09:56 PM

Biometrics can be spoofed by a Xerox copy of a fingerprint currently, or so Mythbusters says.

Barring that, if you can pull the print off of something you can make a mold to bypass a biometric lock.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 09:59 PM

Keypad sequencers are also Forbidden. But, no one said that biometrics can't be beaten. They're certainly harder to beat than Key Locks, is the point. With all of these, you're rolling Rating vs. Rating; that's not a lot of room for error.

Posted by: DoomFrog Sep 7 2010, 10:00 PM

A game I was a player in actually had a lot of trouble with an old-school combination safe. We broke into an office, found the safe, but the hacker messed up and didn't check for a data bomb when trying to get the combination of the owners computer.

In the end we just stole the whole safe because none of us had any chance of defaulting on the lock pick skill and opening it.

As a GM, I would definitely throw in old fashion mechanical combination locks. Seeing as lock picking is a hobby of mine, I would change the skill test a bit to make it more "realistic". Have them do a lockpicking + agility test with a rating, but they would have to pass a number of checks equal to the number of numbers in the combination. Give them a bonus die or two for a Perception (Listen) check.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 10:03 PM

Do the maglock crackers have to also take a number of checks equal to the digits in the passcode/passkey?

Just kidding. That sounds like a good house rule if you want to make mechanical locks tougher, or at least slower.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 7 2010, 10:06 PM

I would certainly hope that any B&E specialist worth their salt has not only the hardware and computer skills to bypass a (mag)lock but also the lockpick skill, an autopicker, a maglock passkey, and a keypad sequencer of at least decent rating. Also, a high edge.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 10:11 PM

That is indeed a specialist! As the book says, you could even combine mechanical locks and maglocks, and of course sensors, guards, spirits, etc. etc. However, in the matchup of key locks versus maglocks, maglocks are both harder to crack and take more time. And personally, I'd expect a lot more people to have really high Agility (used on key locks) than Logic (maglocks).

Don't forget that the maglock sequencer (18F) requires you to open the case first, and are used *instead* of character skills + attribute. Key lock autopickers (8R) are used directly on the lock (no case) and *add* their rating to Skill + Attribute, a huge difference.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 7 2010, 10:28 PM

Anti-Technology can often beat Technology, and sometimes ignorance is the best security.

After all, two people can only keep a secret if one of them is dead. Which is often why the 'Run isn't over until the Johnson screws the team.

Posted by: yesferatu Sep 7 2010, 10:36 PM

"...they're Forbidden and expensive"
Well, then forget it! My runners don't do anything "illegal".
What do you mean lock cracking equipment is FORBIDDEN?

My initial plan was a 5-10 digit numerical code.
The runners would need 5-10 successes on an extended test.
I may or may not use the optional subtract a die each roll rule.

Am I just wrong in thinking that high tech locks are too easy to crack in this system?
You've got auto pickers, sequencers, passkeys can be spoofed, biometrics can be faked plus you can do most of those from a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER.

From a GM standpoint, I like the low tech angle since it forces *someone* with the right skills into the room and doesn't really offer a hacker cheat code.

Obviously, if you just mono-chainsaw the lock in half, it doesn't matter what kind is.

Posted by: yesferatu Sep 7 2010, 10:37 PM

Double posty!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 7 2010, 10:40 PM

Forbidden is a pretty relevant piece of information, but I was more pointing out the 'expensive' aspect. In the case of the passkey, very expensive. Availability is another issue, as I mentioned later.

Everything we've mentioned requires someone in the room, maglock or not. A hacker could do things with the electronic security, but we hadn't mentioned it.

I thought I'd illustrated why 'not unbreakable' for passcodes/passkeys/biometrics doesn't mean 'easy to break'. It doesn't. But, while a key lock maxes out at 12 hits required (6 without Transponder-Coded keys), a maglock maxes out at like 28 before adding any biometrics (and you can just pile these on).

And let's talk about those biometrics: fingerprints require a glove molder and a copy of the legit print; retina requires retina duplication; voice requires a recording or voice modulator, real sample either way; breath/cell/DNA requires the actual DNA; facial recognition requires a good Disguise. Again, this is after up to 28 Threshold of plain Hardware + Logic, while the key lock is beaten with (Locksmith + Agility + Autopicker). Transponder keys do help out a *lot* though: the interval on that Hardware +Logic test is 1 minute, instead of 1 Combat Turn.

You're right that key locks are pretty easy to break, but at least there are no bump-keys in SR4, right?

Posted by: DoomFrog Sep 7 2010, 11:17 PM

yesferatu-

Yes locks are easy to get past, but that is actually the truth in real life. Locks and encryption are never 100%, most times they are just a deterant. The most secure encryptions and locks can be bypassed, it just takes time.

Also if you are trying to make your locks secure in your game remember: A lock is only as strong as the door it is in. And a door is only as strong as the wall it is in.

A Rating 12 maglok on a wood door isn't going to stop a troll. And a steel reinforced security door mounted in drywall won't stop a troll either.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 7 2010, 11:26 PM

Security is to make things difficult and, hopefully, get people caught while doing things they're not supposed to. And to keep citizens honest.

Professionals will always find a way in. That is what they do.

Posted by: jaellot Sep 8 2010, 12:04 AM

Heh, did the same thing. My troll just punched through the surrounding drywall of the wall safe, and tossed it out the window. Through the roof of a delivery van we had jacked for the job.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 8 2010, 12:21 AM

Perfect B/E-Equipment?
A Monofilament-Chainsaw with the Silence Spell anchored to it!

Posted by: jakephillips Sep 8 2010, 12:36 AM

Yep our B and E guy has an auto picker in addition to a passkey and and sequencer.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 8 2010, 02:39 AM

"OK, hack the safe." "I can't, it's from the '20s." "Ew." "Worse than you think. The 1920s!"

Posted by: TeknoDragon Sep 8 2010, 02:54 AM

For further safe fun, make the stairs up (or down) to the floor it is on too weak to handle the weight of said safe; if the thing is half a ton or so, the stairs will handle the armored, cybered troll using them, but there will be an amusing surprise when the team attempts to remove the heavy, reinforced MacGuffin Holder.

Posted by: suoq Sep 8 2010, 03:17 AM

You've lost me. Is there some reason why combination locks have somehow gotten more difficult than high-tech locks to open?

1) If they're sold, locksmiths need to be able to open them. People expect locksmiths to be able to open locks. And quickly. People get mad if locksmiths can't open their lock. Unless the locksmiths have a skillset criminals don't, I don't why the criminals are at a sudden disadvantage.

2) Low-tech is (or at least used to be) the starting ground for high-tech. Maybe they don't teach basics anymore and they go straight to the advanced stuff, but that seems like asking a lot of people to re-invent the wheel when they were never taught about the wheel.

3) Security through obscurity doesn't really work. Look, an old lock! Google how to open it. Find an exploding diagram or blueprint. Ok. Just do it the old fashioned way (pull hard and slowly spin the dial and feel for when it "gives").

If you want to make life harder for your players, just make a harder lock with more security features.

In the current world, security has three sorts of ways it can be opened. A simple lock uses one way. A harder lock uses two ways. The best security uses three. These ways are defined by the thing needed to pass the lock.
1) Something you are (biometrics)
2) Something you have (key)
3) Something you know (password)

I would expect, eventually, that someone will add a 4th in the world of shadowrun.
4) Something you can cast (spell)

I kind of like the 4, because they can be remembered as Have, Are, Cast, Know. (H.A.C.K.)

But going low-tech, claiming the player somehow doesn't know the basics of his craft, and using that sudden lack of knowledge to keep him from having a chance to shine at his moment doesn't seem like an enjoyable time at the table. If you're going to make it hard for him, don't make it hard by making him look incompetent.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 03:59 AM

There are alchemical widgets, yes.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Sep 8 2010, 05:31 AM

I agree that a mechanical lock should not somehow be harder to pick than an electronic lock.

However, whilst the mechanical lock should be simpler, if the groups B+E specialist has neglected to take any skill or equipment for dealing with it it's his own fault that he looks incompetent, not the GMs.

Posted by: kzt Sep 8 2010, 06:02 AM

Physical security is all about time. Given unlimited time you can get anything. What physical security does is

a) Start a timer - That's what the roving guards, alarms, etc do.

b) Make it take a lot longer to get the stuff. That's why the valuable stuff is in a 2500 kg TRTL-60X6 safe, and why the safe is bolted to the floor.

c) Arrange that if you spend too much time on part b you get to meet a large number of heavily armed people who have plans for how you should spend the next few years.


And to get back the the original poster, the USG has required classified data to be stored in a container protected by a combination lock for 50+ years, the current lock is pretty darn hard to open without the combination unless you are willing to go to an overt attack using power tools. Most high security safes have relockers that trip when you attempt to bypass the lock.

Posted by: kzt Sep 8 2010, 06:22 AM

People who lose keys to high security locks get to buy another lock after the locksmith drills it out. Some people can pick some high security locks with enough time, but it's hardly a common skill with locksmiths. And some locks simply haven't ever been picked. Like the http://www.evva.com/uploads/media/MCS_brochure_EN.pdf.

It's a lot harder to open a high security safe. The way a safe tech opens a high security safe that the owner has lost the combination to is with a magnetic drill rig, a box of bits, a hammer, a center punch, quite a bit of noise and a lot of time.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 8 2010, 12:54 PM

I'm a computer tech.

The only thing I know about Analog Computers is from a History Class. Doesn't mean I can fix it's bugs. Which might include MOTHS, which is where the term "Bug" comes from.

Posted by: suoq Sep 8 2010, 01:44 PM

And neither of those is a low tech combination lock. They're current state-of-the art, exactly the opposite of what's being proposed in this thread.

Posted by: suoq Sep 8 2010, 01:55 PM

I realize that you may not know about Analog Computers. However, in that case, you are the person who knows you don't know. I'm not telling you that you don't know it.

I'm all for a player deciding his character doesn't know how to pick an old-style combination lock.

I'm not in favor of the GM telling a player that his character doesn't know how to pick an old lock when the character has the lock picking skill and there is no separate skill for old locks and no listed gear they neglected to buy.

I'm also not in favor of an old low-tech combination being harder to open then a new high-tech secure lock for a player's character.

It's the difference between storytelling and interactive storytelling. The GM isn't just telling the world's story, he's now telling the player's story too. In order for the world's story to work, he's been forced to gimp the player character.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 8 2010, 03:00 PM

Ah, I get where you're going now.

I was saying that someone that knows only how to hack a Electronic Lock doesn't know how to deal with an Old Fashioned Lock. Which is true, I mean, where do you connect the electronic leads?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 03:02 PM

suoq, I thought the point is that he wouldn't *have* Lockpicking. It's only for old locks; maglocks don't use it at all.

Posted by: Drraagh Sep 8 2010, 06:11 PM

Old locks have a few good things, especially if you consider really high-tech locking mechanisms. Also, add a few extra add-ons, things like glass plates that prevent drilling, motion sensors to prevent tampering or picking up the safe, a couple hidden cameras being monitored for the site, etc.

But as was said, locks help make the challenge take a lot longer, and also can keep out people who may not have the proper skills. I don't play SR4, so I don't know the skillsets and details there, but SR3 worked around that by creating Lockpicking for old-style and Electronics + Electronics B/R to break newer locks.

Also, as a final thought, there is the idea of putting multiple ideas together. What about a key lock that opens a code lock that activates a biometric lock or something similar? Sort of like the idea of missile launching systems, where its a pair of keys and then flip the switch and then press the button.

If you watch the two episodes of Tiger Team they made, they show how even 'high tech' locks can be beaten by simple means. Things like picking an RFID card or trying a few combinations, since a lot of people set combos to easy things to remember.

Locksmiths, as people have said, normally will either destroy the lock and then add a new one, or they will take their time and open it up. But what about a 'system override' code or device. The only problem with that is what if it is taken/stolen/etc, it's like a skeleton key. Could make an interesting idea for a run, especially if you have NPCs reacting smartly and trying to stop you from using it or catch you.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 8 2010, 07:15 PM

Combiner-Tech.
Old Skool Lock and Key. But the Key is actually a biometric reader that transfers certain data while being turned.
Same with the keypad. The code is important, but also the pad reads the finger prints and you need to use specific fingers to input specific numbers.

Posted by: suoq Sep 8 2010, 07:58 PM

You got something different from what he said than I did. My impression was that the character was no longer doing a simple lockpicking test but some new form of extended test to figure out how each tumbler on the lock works. (Figure out how tumbler #1 works and then drop a die for the next tumbler.)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 08:00 PM

I did see that bit, but either the guy has Lockpicking or he doesn't. He's not being penalized for not knowing 'the basics of his craft', because he either knows alls about Lockpicking, or he knows all about cracking Maglocks. (Or he has both unrelated skills, of course.)

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Sep 8 2010, 08:04 PM

I also got the impression that the poster was saying "Lots of runners have electronics and hacking skills, but maybe not all of them have lockpicking skill - and if they don't, you can put them off their stride with a mechanical lock."

Posted by: sabs Sep 8 2010, 08:05 PM

Unless for 600 nuyen they bought a R6 autopicker

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 08:07 PM

Indeed, Mayhem, and that's *not* 'the basics of their profession'. At all.

Posted by: suoq Sep 8 2010, 08:15 PM

Ok. I must have missed something. Help me understand.

1) The guy has lockpicking.
2) Because this is a combination lock instead of a keylock, the player isn't rolling Locksmith + Agility, Rating, 1 Combat Turn.
3) Instead he has to do "5-10 successes on an extended test" (1 for every digit) possibly with the loss of a die on each pass.

I'm having a hard time understanding the logic / game balance / enjoyment behind this. I'm probably missing something.

I don't mind the loss of autopickers, lockpicks as tools. I'm used to there being times certain tools don't help. Likewise I'd be open to bonuses from enhanced hearing or (especially) touch as a replacement for the lost tools. That's a die or two either way. From a GM standpoint it's fluff (take away the tools and make it a weaker lock and it's a wash in the end. Take away the tools OR make it a stronger lock. Still a wash. It's easy to change the flavor while keeping the odds of success story-appropriate,)

It's the order of magnitude difference in difficulty between the two types of lock that bothers me. A character suddenly goes from "B&E specialist" to "No can do." and it's not the players fault. He tool the skill and the tools, but the rules changed.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 8 2010, 08:20 PM

Yes: his house rule is to make locks harder. I was only responding to your point that this was unfair because 'it's taking away knowledge from the players' or something. I may have been distracted when you and CanRay used the terms 'old' and 'new' to refer to what Shadowrun only calls 'old' locks: mechanical ones. 'High tech' locks are maglocks; even key locks with transponder keys are still 'old'.

It's true that the only locks in SR4 are key locks. No combo, no mechanical wall safes, etc. However, I don't agree that picking a key lock, cracking a combo lock, and cutting a safe are necessarily the same skill anyway. Because the latter two don't exist in SR4, there's no skill for them (the third one is probably Demo, practically). You could add those, of course.

Posted by: suoq Sep 8 2010, 08:40 PM

Note on Locksmith:

Edit: Also

Posted by: Saint Sithney Sep 8 2010, 09:55 PM

Meh. Use Chisel rules. Str = damage, straight up.


What would really stop a regular SR team dead is a classic vault with a mechanical lock. Good luck brute-forcing your way through that bastard. Glass tamper plates to auto-seal it if you try and drill. Triple combination lock. Eight bolts as thick as an Ork's bicep. Hoo boy, that's going to be a prob-

OH WAIT. The mage just mind controls a guy to open it. SECURITY BREACHED.
Magic: Oh, that was easy..

Posted by: kzt Sep 8 2010, 10:22 PM

Too bad about that time lock.....

Posted by: CanRay Sep 8 2010, 10:33 PM

Or the Watcher that's sitting in the vault set to scream it's head off if it sees any magic in the area.

Which gets Boris, the Earth Elemental cranky.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 12:47 AM

Thanks suoq, I'd never noticed that! They're just called Key Locks in the rules section, and it only mentions transponder keys. So, definitely the same skill for all old locks, and much easier than maglocks to crack.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Sep 9 2010, 04:52 AM

Unless, as discussed, Mr Electronics-Genius neglects to buy lockpicking. Which, after all, to most shadowrunners might seem like the equivalent of their gun specialist buying up his bow skills - a ridiculous investment in obsolete tech skills.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 05:24 AM

Right, but even then, I explained earlier why they're easier. At worst for a purely mechanical lock, you get Autopicker + Agility - 1, against 6. If there are transponder keys, it's messy and it's now Hardware *anyway*, but still easier than a maglock.

Posted by: TeknoDragon Sep 9 2010, 12:47 PM

Glad for this discussion, folks-- I'd skipped over the limitations on the lockpicking skill. As in, 'don't forget to take care of electronics.' Next time I build a second-story character I'll try to remember!

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Sep 9 2010, 04:44 PM

Surely, at worst, you don't get the autopicker?

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 9 2010, 05:26 PM

Why are you taking AGI - 1? You're not defaulting at that point as the Autopicker would replace the skill much in the way the medkit replaces your First Aid skill if you lack it, right?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 06:27 PM

It's not clear that's the case. The rules seem to say that you can either use the Autopicker as the skill, or add it to your skill test. Locksmith can be defaulted, so it doesn't say you can't add it to your defaulted skill test. In fact, you may not even have to take the -1: it says "Autopickers (p. 335) add their rating in dice to this test; their rating may also be used in place of Lockpicking skill." Not 'in place of the Locksmith + Agility pool'; this *is* the same as a Medkit, while (for example) Visual Spotter software says, "Use the software’s rating as the dice pool for visual-based Perception Tests to identify, spot, or track a particular shape/object."

Mayhem, be reasonable: why would anyone not have an autopicker?

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 9 2010, 06:45 PM

Maybe they have a strength score and boot size greater than the door's barrier rating.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 06:55 PM

Oh, an autokicker? Hurr.

Posted by: nezumi Sep 10 2010, 12:18 PM

I actually have picked locks (not for a living, but I got 2 pins on a medeco with a sidebar, and 4 without, which is pretty good, imo). Picking an old lock without tools or skills should indeed be difficult. However, if he has the skills, he should be able to make tools (there's a video of someone picking a lock with a banana) with the stuff a normal team has, and if he has the tools, that's the end of that. I imagine picking locks would be a LOT easier with access to fiber optic cameras as thin as a human hair, handheld ultrasound devices, and wispy monomers. If I can actually see into the lock, even *I* could hack it, no matter how complex.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Sep 11 2010, 02:40 AM

I remember hearing a story about a guy who saw a locksmith van parked in an overnight lot with a garbage masterlock on the rear door latch, so he picked it, took a Medco padlock out of the truck's inventory, used that to secure the latch and then hurled the key into the bushes.

Mean as hell, but kind of funny.

Posted by: capt.pantsless Sep 11 2010, 01:45 PM

If you're a GM designing a security system, throwing in a few old-fashioned locks along with new-school mag-logs is a good way to increase the challenge of a run, i.e. it requires the PCs to invest in the locksmithing skill. This can be seen as dickish GM-ing, depending on what kinda group you've got. I'm planning on warning whoever rolls the Spec. Ops character in my next campaign that mechanical locks might show up, and throwing a 1 in Locksmithing might be a good idea.

Mechanical locks should probably be a rarity in 2070, i.e. Mr. Johnson's antique gun-case might have a key-lock on it.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 11 2010, 02:19 PM

The first game I ran had the item they were looking for locked up in one of numerous safes in a Warehouse, which dated from when the warehouse was built (1950), up until one that was installed just before Crash 2.0.

It was easier and cheaper to just leave the old safes where they were and forget them, rather than pull them out.

Posted by: tifunkalicious Sep 11 2010, 02:20 PM

Businesses prefer swiping cards on electronic locks over keylocks because if a card is lost or stolen, it costs little time and no money to yank that card off the system, and probably a small fee charged to the employee to replace it. Assigning a key to each employee, or even only 2-3 that need to access that particular room/locker/box, is a huge liability. If said thing is particularly valuable, locks would have to be changed and new keys reassigned over a small piece of metal getting misplaced.

Your typical security man is probably more concerned with the efficiency and low-replacement cost of maglock keys over trying to 'pull a fast one' on a group of shadowrunners infiltrating the building which is NOT a daily occurrence. So I would save the traditional locks for older buildings and personal property, which to be fair means the team may still run into quite a few.

Posted by: kzt Sep 11 2010, 05:27 PM

Feds/DoD are more interested in keeping people out of stuff and particularly in knowing if someone got into a classified area or gained access to classified material. So they rely on combination locks for classified stuff and non-master keyed mechanical locks for important non-classified stuff. You can use electronic access control to the perimeter, but the actual critical locks are not-network connected or reliant on any outside system to operate.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 05:30 PM

Except, by the SR4 rules, maglocks with lots of biometrics are much more secure.

Posted by: suoq Sep 11 2010, 05:52 PM

I fail to see how the bolded statement is affected by either keys or combination locks.

Security (keeping people out) often involves three things or multiples of them
1) Something you have (key, passcard)
2) Something you know (combination, passcard)
3) Something you are (bouncer behind the door, biometrics)

Information assurance (knowing if someone gained access) is a completely different and more complicated field. Unless you're playing with a group of people who study information assurance for a hobby or a job, it's really not worth springing it on your players.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 06:05 PM

Well I wouldn't say that. Knowing that you've been robbed/hacked/whatever is a great element in SR; it's not exactly 'springing' it on people.

Posted by: suoq Sep 11 2010, 06:32 PM

I may need to rephrase.

When players cover their tracks, and believe they have covered their tracks, they may react badly to the GM having the opposition knowing what has happened to a degree the players don't expect, even if the GM had written down a tracking mechanism that the players didn't know about or think about.

I agree it's a great element and I feel free to use such things in my games with my friends. This being dumpshock, however, I'm loathe to suggest people use "great elements" if I feel that suggestion will simply result in more flamewars and accusations.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 06:39 PM

Ah, *unexpectedly* knowing that you've been compromised. That's a whole different context. Still, if the players are relying on the idea that they've fully covered their tracks, they need to 1) know that's never possible (heh), 2) clearly tell the GM that's their intention, and negotiate. If they use a maglock passkey and the hacker does a *successful* matrix run to wipe/edit that swipe log, then obviously it's unfair to have the log *not* wiped.

See that whole (bleh) metagaming thread.

Posted by: kzt Sep 11 2010, 07:51 PM

You can bypass any access control method by:
1) Forcible entry- Go to town with sledge hammers, power tools, plasma cutters, etc.
2) Extortion - I'll tell your secrets unless you give me X.
3) Kidnapping - I'll kill you or your kids if you don't open the vault.
4) Bribes - I'll pay you a million bucks for the Coke recipe.

A decent security system includes features to attempt to counter all of these if they are considered viable threats by the threat model. Since these are common, let's look at the differences.

On the entry to the room/container that contains a valuable item a typical electronic access system (as in prox card or similar) has the following weaknesses that a combination lock doesn't have.

I can copy the credential by it's RF signature.
I can get into the space (typically less sensitive then the controlled area) where the EAC controllers for the floor lives and make the lock open.
I can interrupt power to the maglock/strike.
I can steal the credential.
I can hack the computer controlling the EAC and have it open the lock for me.
I can mess with the logs of an EAC and have it forget that the lock opened or say it was opened by an authorized user at a different time.

Key locks are subject to having the key stolen (but they are normally only carried on the job and locked up in a key container otherwise) and having the key visually decoded. But they are subject to various well understood attacks and are normally used for non-critical areas where they are more subject to physical attacks than subtle attacks, as you can make padlocks that are very difficult to cut. Picking isn't obvious, but it normally leaves "some" forensic signs to a trained expert.

Good quality combination locks require that you know the combination to open it without force. As these are supposed to be memorized there isn't anything to steal without planting video cameras. In theory purely mechanical ones are subject to x-ray attack so you can decode the dials remotely. Supposedly the KGB had portable equipment (for some value of "portable") to do that on USG S&G 8500s. Plus you can use electronic dialers to attack them. So in theory you can open the container, photograph the secret plans and sneak back out without anyone knowing. Or you could drill the container, decode the lock and replace it with an identical lock that has the correct combination, repair and repaint the hole and sneak back out.

The modern versions with some electronic components has retry penalties and logs accessible on the dial and various elements other elements (like limited view angles) to make it a lot harder to attack successfully. In theory the best way to attack an X-09 that you don't know the combination to is to drill it, but it's designed so you can't recover the combination after you destroy the lock to open the container. So at best you leave the container with a lock that won't open, at which point they call in a tech and the security officer who look at why the container isn't opening. The security officer should find that the lock serial number doesn't match and/or the tech should see the traces of the drilling.

Which is why Kaba Mas sells something like 10 million bucks a year of these to the feds.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 08:26 PM

So… huh? I guess you're suggesting house rules?

Posted by: kzt Sep 11 2010, 08:53 PM

Considering that the "cyber" part of the cyberpunk doesn't work in ShadowRun RAW, and they evicted the "punk" part from the game, why bother?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 08:56 PM

*shrug* I like it fine. We have fun, and it's still Shadowrun.

I could see house-ruling in more difficult 'high-security' vault-style mechanical locks if the players would be interested in that. By default, hacking and the various maglock options cover the same 'technical heist' concept, but if a player wants to drill a vault, throw together some vault-drilling rules!