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Posted by: tifunkalicious Sep 9 2010, 03:10 PM

I don't have alot of experience running games that allow for as much planning as Shadowrun does, and it's this change in style I'm having issues developing challenges for. My current college group is pretty green to tabletop rpgs in general so roleplaying encounters are pretty quick and straightforward for the time being. And I have a good hunch that the system (and your standard SR player) doesn't take kindly to a 'dungeon'.

It's just an alien concept to me to have an element in the scene that can and is actively trying to murder the whole team in violent fashion after years of D&D with my family that amounted to "everything that can be killed in this fortress/mine/palace/desert should be killed"

So what can I do to create an environment that needs work to be done before the hit? How can I make it dangerous but give an advantage for a good job done on recon?

Some ideas I've had determining guard shifts and making it just overwhelming to sneak in while they're on full duty or drawing up alarm drones that are bad mofos to run away from rather than fight head on.

Posted by: Platinum Sep 9 2010, 04:00 PM

first thing to do is give them a novel like 2xs. Where they learn the art of legwork.

It might be easier to start with a published adventure where there is some legwork. then move on to creating your own.

Remember all of the little things, like getting building plans from city hall/a civil engineering firm/architect.

Doing some research on the background of a johnson, by calling your cop contact, hacking his iconbook page.

Watching burn notice is a great idea. Little quips like saying spy work is 95% sitting and waiting, should be driven home. Sneakers, ronin are old movies that show a great deal of legwork.

Charting guard rotations. Looking up a guard's family history and using family as leverage in order to get a uniform and pass or one of his colleagues are other ideas to drop.

Sounds like you might have to teach the players how to be shadowrunners. The only way to do that is to read or watch something that explains all of the little steps involved. The other option is to use the planning pool rules in development here -> http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32787

Posted by: sabs Sep 9 2010, 04:16 PM

TV Shows:
A-team, Burn Notice, Leverage and White Collar all give good ideas on legwork.

Movies:
Ocean's 11
The Italian Job
gone in 60 Seconds

All give you interesting ideas

Posted by: Neraph Sep 9 2010, 04:26 PM

Also, don't be afraid to have them die. Death is a great teacher, especially when it comes to Shadowrun. The first two mages I ever played went unconscious many, many times during the beginning of my time in this game, and a couple times I had to burn Edge to survive. As a result, I'm a much, much better player now.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=25988. It details different practices they should get in the habit of keeping.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 9 2010, 05:33 PM

I agree with everything said in this topic so far. Basically, create the security system, and give it actual weaknesses. Then allow those weaknesses to be uncovered through careful legwork and even more importantly...clever planning. Basically just revealing information about the target (map, etc.) should allow for the PCs to carefully plan their assault.

A solution published adventures use is that legwork is necessary just to find out WHERE TO GO/WHO TO CACK but that doesn't seem like what you're talking about.

I wrote and ran an adventure based on this. It was pretty sweet...my PCs got annihilated but since it was possible to do the run for two different factions, I had them spend the second half of the session playing the team set by the OTHER faction that was going to be their opposition, and that team succeeded so that the McGuffin was gotten out of the dungeon by someone.

Then I had their regular PCs get rescued by *mystery and intrigue*. You know, the "You wake up somewhere mysterious, and you don't know what implants are in you or how you got out alive but now you owe Mr. Johnson a big favor" plot device. Unfortunately my PCs well they're only three of them and they are NOT OPTIMIZED so it's hard to tell if I made it too hard or they just sucked the big one.

Anyway, the adventure was called 'Dungeon Crawl' and involved the team infiltrating one of the still-abandoned, still-quarantined levels of the ACHE and dealing with the cult of wasted-away Deus worshippers (a handful of leftover Blues and Whites) and leftover Deus drones (Meduas and whatnot). The easy part was penetrating the security around the SCIRE, that was basically taken care of by the Johnson.

Anyway, dungeons in SR aren't impossible. One of the Missions that I like better was essentially a dungeon. But dungeons in SR SHOULDN'T be the norm, and they do require some extra TLC.

Posted by: Drraagh Sep 9 2010, 05:53 PM

For those who know me, I write some really long posts. I've even gotten involved elsewhere with writing a bunch of GM posts for SR, giving my opinion on some different topics. Legwork and information gathering and the like, I've done a lot of. Here are a bit of what may help your group:

You could do a whole plot about legwork. Rather than the J hiring you for extraction, he hires you for surveillance of the building; find out all you can about person X and find out how to get in and out of the building. Have your Face character meet with his corporate contact at a coffee shop, discussing things like security measures, building layout, etc. Your decker hacks into the corporate database, getting things set up for overwatch, maybe finding what floor your guy works on, his schedule, etc. Your mage does some astral surveillance of the building, checking out how dangerous the place is. Could even have a few incidental encounters to liven things up, like the coffee shop was robbed and the face has to deal with that. Turns a quick twenty minute legwork scene into an hour long dramatic encounter perhaps.

......

I have a much larger article I did on Non-Deckers and information gathering that I think I will put online somewhere and link to, but basically, the idea with that one focuses on some topics that we've got kicking around here, ranging from Social Engineering to using public information to compile a dossier on people and covert spying and the like.

Burn Notice definitely has some great informational scenes about information gathering. But the problem with it is that while it pays tribute to some of those concepts, it also edits them down for TV time and flair. I mean, it's sort of like looking at the opening speech from Swordfish, about the problem with Hollywood. I love the show, but there are things you could have happen which really don't happen all that often. False leads, getting spotted or challenged, failing. Very few times, in TT RPGs or in shows do characters fail, without having some sort of success.

But anyway, for regards to SR dungeons, watch Leverage Season 3 Episode 3, The Inside Job. The characters must defeat a 'smart building' that is hunting a team member trapped inside. Another example, Human Target, Season 1 Episode 6, Lockdown. Chance's goal is to sneak the engineer out of the highly-secured facility with no one noticing. The company's heads decide to cut their losses and use every effort to make certain that their employee does not leave the building alive.

One of the best ways to develop legwork is to not tell them everything. I don't mean have the J be out to double cross them, but maybe the J doesn't know. Or, maybe, it's not a standard run. Instead of the J giving it to them, they find someone watching them. Who does this person work for? If you played the Shadowrun game on Genesis or SNES, you know both of the games were different styles of adventures to find out about a certain target and how to get to them. You didn't have someone to suddenly drop a whole bunch of information in your lap, but instead, had to find it out yourself and make the connections.

Posted by: Method Sep 9 2010, 07:46 PM

Do share! You could drop it in a new thread.

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For the OP: first you have to set the level of challenge in your game. As a general rule taking a security team head on should result in your runners being destroyed. Not that every individual security guard should be a death-dealing PC slayer, mind you. But trained security guards should be good at delaying or containing an intruding team long enough for the real dangerous stuff like spirits, drones and elite strike teams to arrive (roughly in that order).

Now, once you have established this balance of power it should become obvious to your player (maybe after a run or two) that D&D style hack and slash frontal assaults are not a viable option (except when they are the best option, but thats beside the point). This will force them to think about other approaches like social engineering, hacking, stealing pass keys, disguises, distractions, etc all of which can entail leg work tasks all their own. If they determine that they need a special peice of equipment, don't let them just wander down to the Stuffer Shack and buy it. Sorry chummer, but there just happens to be a shortage of Item X. You need to find this guy Fixer Y. And maybe when their talking to Fixer Y he happens to mention some detail about their mission.

This will get your players used to the idea of Legwork and planning and how things get done in preparation for the run. It shouldn't take them too long to catch on.

Good Luck!