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Posted by: Laodicea Sep 9 2010, 06:05 PM

Type-O system makes all standard bioware count as delta ware, right out of the box, without the high cost and availability of deltaware. Nice.

Vampires have to be implanted with deltaware due mostly to their regeneration power and unique physiology.

So, can you make a vampire(or other infected) character and give them type-o system, and take biowares at chargen?

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 9 2010, 06:10 PM

No. Type-O does not transform normal-grade bioware into deltaware, it simply means you loose Essence as if the bioware in question was Delta-grade

When you turn into a vampire, your DNA and immune system are seriously overwriten by the HMVV and you eject anything that is implanted into you. IHMO even Deltaware implanted prior to the transformation.

Once you are transformed, if you want 'ware you need "true" Deltaware, speficially attuned to your vampiric physiology, and cannot re-use whatever you ejected.

Posted by: sabs Sep 9 2010, 08:56 PM

Not to mention, after buying stats, and spending 100BP on becoming a vampire. Where are you finding points for Type-O and money for bioware

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 9 2010, 09:15 PM

Negative qualities for the Type-O and a rating 6 group contact for a bunch of bleeding heart philanthropists to donate money to them for Bioware.

am i doin it rite?

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 9 2010, 09:26 PM

Well, if the GM is allowing In-debt(which they shouldnt), that's an easy source of money & BP.

Yes, the character would end up very very skills-lite, which isn't a good thing. I wouldn't consider it OP simply because of this.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 9 2010, 09:28 PM

Well, 30k isn't 'money for bioware'. That's money for ammo, maybe.

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 9 2010, 09:39 PM

It'll buy you R2 muscle aug & toner.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 9 2010, 09:39 PM

That is a very reasonable GM interpretation of the Rules as Intended.

It is not, however, what is actually written.

That said, it's a grey enough area that the proper answer is probably "ask your GM."



-karma

Posted by: jakephillips Sep 10 2010, 01:22 AM

I agree with the psudo science of it.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 10 2010, 09:59 AM

Well, technically, characters with Type-O Biosystem treat all standard, non-cultured bioware as deltaware. So technically, yes, your Type-O Vampire can implant bioware.

Note, however, that they only have 5 points of essence to play with, so that might make it rather tough to play with. That said, I have played a Type-O Vampire Adept before, and she performed alright, although not spectacular. You're just too starved on BP/Karma.

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 10 2010, 11:33 AM

If you happen to find a GM you can sweet talk into allowing this kind of abuse, just remember one thing : you are not only full of freely transplantable organs since the HMVV in your system requires the Infection power to actually infect someone, but you now regenerate them...

Posted by: CeeJay Sep 10 2010, 11:48 AM

Why go on runs when you can live comfortably by selling one of your kidneys every other week?

-CJ

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 10 2010, 11:55 AM

You, or some not-so-nice guy from Tamanous...

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 10 2010, 12:02 PM

By the same token, no SINner mage would ever have to run the shadows, since working as a researcher/personal mage for an exec is just so much more lucrative.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 10 2010, 12:07 PM

Except that your organs would have the Vampire virus in them...

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 10 2010, 12:10 PM

Not really a problem, as the vector of the disease is the Infection power...

Posted by: Karoline Sep 10 2010, 01:43 PM

5 points of essence using only delta bioware? I think you'd need to get just about every single piece of ware in the book, and then head over to augmentation and grab a bunch of stuff from that before you'd really need to worry about burning up all your essence.

Posted by: Tiralee Sep 10 2010, 03:03 PM

Erm, refresh my memory, but don't vamps get all weird if they lose essence (1 point a week, wasn't it?) And unless you've got igors on tap, you're going to leave a blood trail to yourself sooner or later.
Frankly, this reeks of "ask the GM".

-Tir.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 10 2010, 04:45 PM

Yeah, that's one of the weird things about HMHVV. If the infected guy doesn't want to infect you, you can get a blood transfusion from him and you won't get the disease.

Unless you do the sensible thing and house-rule it, of course.



-karma

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 10 2010, 05:06 PM

Type-O system is a weird quality. You can't take it and also be a mage or mystic adept. Sure, that would probably be overpowered, but statistically speaking, SOMEONE with magic will have O-type blood. You can take it and be an Adept, but its costing you literally every point of positive qualities you can have at chargen. If you make a type-o adept you cannot take restricted gear, which makes the bioware available to you rather limited. No suprathyroid gland for you!

As far as I can tell, any type-o system character is not well optimized at chargen. They have a great deal of potential if your GM is handing out lost of cash or free biowares.

All of that said, It's still a cool quality, and would be kind of weird and fun with a vampire, as they are a rather blood-focused people. He'd be like the vampire messiah or something.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Sep 10 2010, 05:08 PM

Probably not more lucrative, but surely more safe. Really, runners are the kind of people who get 10k for a 2-4 days job, while wageslavers must work literally 24-7 to gain half or even less than that. Of course working as wageslave means you have, in average, bullets flying over your head once a month when shadowrunners break into your workspace, while runners have bullets flying over their heads at least once a week.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 10 2010, 07:22 PM

They do not literally work 24-7.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Sep 10 2010, 09:50 PM

As someone said, Shadowrun labor laws should be as good as the labor laws from the begining of the 20th century, pretty much none. It is a dystopian world after all. So, for me, wageslaves work 24-7 but receive "perks" (not living in the barrens, hot food, hot water and a roof).

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 10 2010, 09:56 PM

So they never ever stop for sleep and food and going to the bathroom?

Gosh.




-karma

Posted by: TheScrivener Sep 10 2010, 11:42 PM

Why, when you have catheters and IV nutrients. No need to ever leave your cubicle/apartment

I think the Type O System's pseudoscience and the HMVV pseudoscience don't quite mesh, honestly; the transformation of the body's system in the infection process would eliminate the Type O cells. Of course, with GM approval you could be the one vampire who *doesn't* lose the Owen-type non-allergenic cells, making you even rarer... and thus the target of organleggers and paracritter bio-researchers just as soon as the word gets out.
My approach to what folks would call a "broken" concept is usually to give the character headaches proportional to the utility of the overpowered-ness, and use it to drive story. This "vampire messiah," IMO, is what Thompson might call "one of God's own prototypes; too weird to live, too rare to die."
Near-literally in this case, with the regenerating uberflesh.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 11 2010, 12:14 AM

IE all your cells? You mean that the DNA would change enough that you are no longer a type O system.

It's hard to imagine that word of that would ever get out. I mean even a normal person with a type O system doesn't go around bragging about it for the same reason.

Oh, and for those people talking about the vamp regenning bioware, I don't see any reason that the vamp should regenerate bioware. It isn't a natural part of their body, it isn't in their DNA, and so wouldn't be coded into what is supposed to be regenerated.

Posted by: Mongoose Sep 11 2010, 01:54 AM

Its not type O blood. Something like 30% of the population has type O blood. Organ transplant histological compatablity os MUCH more complex than just blood type. In SR, they just use "type O" as slang fro "universal donor", but its a LOT rarer than the blood type. Probably rarer than being a mage by an order or two of magnitude. And given how the "magus gene" works, its entirely possible the two are simply not genetically compatible.

Speaking of regenration and Tamanous... you gotta feal sorry for a shifter or vampire who gets captured by hungry ghouls with a grudge.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 11 2010, 02:35 AM

Type O refers to the first person ever discovered to be a 'universal donor' for organs, Owen. The similarity in name with type O blood is just a (fabricated by the devs) coincidence.

It is however possible to get a type O system and latent awakening, which has a 2 in 3 chance of being mystic adept or mage, so the rules don't make it an impossibility to be a mage with a type O system.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 11 2010, 03:46 AM

actually, it's really easy for it to get out. first, you decide you're going to go to a street doctor to implant your bioware. part of this should include at least basic screening to perform the surgery. furthermore, while operating on you it is going to be extremely obvious that you have regeneration. if any sort of test is done, they'll probably figure out you're a vampire.

so, before long, the street doc knows you're a vampire with type O. while he has you under for the surgery, he has a choice to make. sell your sorry butt for as much as he can, or finish the operation and have an expectation that you will kill him in order to keep your million-nuyen secret a secret. which do you think the average street doc is going to choose?

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 11 2010, 09:07 AM

His organs would not be worth much. He could only have them transplanted into a vampire or someone who wants to be a vampire. He might be useful for research but it is not that hard to take a vampire from someone with type O system. It may be rare but I do not think it is that rare.

An infected type O might be useful for researching bioware for the infected. In the same way I think any type O of a rare meta type.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 11 2010, 12:30 PM

The fact that you're a vampire will be beyond obvious, because you heal at a rate that makes surgery impossible without the right tools, so you're already dealing with a doctor that doesn't mind working on vampires, and so likely is good at keeping their lips shut. That, or, you know, the vampire knows someone with a gun. A big stretch I know, but it is possible.

I doubt a street doc goes through all the 'basic screening' stuff either, they want to do the operation as quickly and cheaply as possible. If the vampire doesn't want to pay for X, then the doctor isn't likely to do X, in this case extra screening to check for compatibility since it isn't an issue 99.99+% of the time, and in this case the vampire knows in advance that it'll be perfect. So yeah, unless you're a true idiot about it, it is fairly easy to keep under wraps.


Depends on the type of infected. A ghoul would spread the infection with transplants, but a vampire would not. Of course weather or not the vampire's organs are still usable in a human body is questionable, which means a vampire being able to be type O is fairly questionable. After all, it refers to having a particular type of organs.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 11 2010, 04:13 PM

No I mean researching bioware to implant into the infected. They are paying customers too. More closely tailored bioware would mean less essence and less malfunctions.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 12 2010, 11:40 PM

there is a big difference between "worth a few thousand nuyen to turn in to the cops, if that" and "worth potentially millions of nuyen if you sell to a corporation"

and the doctor is going to presumably know that regular bioware doesn't work for the vampire, so the type O part is definitely going to become obvious as well.

so the doctor, who apparently has no problems working with vampires, knows that:

1) you are potentially the basis for vampire bioware to be made widely available.

2) you regenerate any organs that may be ripped out of you anyways.

now, unless the doctor is really stupid (which, if you're paying him to operate on you he hopefully isn't since that affects his dice pool), he knows that you're an extreme rarity, and that the law pretty much won't protect you as a vampire anyways. you may have big friends, but once he has a type O vampire for sale and a contact who has an interest in buying a type O vampire, odds are good the doctor is going to quite suddenly have much much much bigger friends. most likely tamanous, since it's a street doc who likely doesn't have the phone number for the director of research in aztechnology.

so the street doc probably isn't worried about your friend with a big gun, because the people he's selling you out to have much bigger guns, and a lot more of them. and once he's sold you, he can probably afford to hire on people with much bigger guns to your friend (assuming he doesn't just include as part of the deal that he will be placed somewhere that you'll have a very very hard time tracking him down)

Posted by: Alpha Blue Sep 13 2010, 12:14 AM

Wasn't the delta wear for vamps, shifters and whatnot meant to signify the level of customization needed for an implant to work with these guys? The type O system thingy is about your system being extra good at excepting implants right? So to me it seems they are using the same word describing different things.

Posted by: Wombat Sep 13 2010, 01:54 AM

Type - O System means that you have the type of system, including blood type among other factors, that is cultured by biomedical corporate divisions to mass produce viable hypoallergenic organs and are used as a base for creating various biowares. In effect, the biowares produced are already tailored to your body, thus they count as delta-grade implants. Once infected with HMHVV-1, the retrovirus rewrites your genetic code, this would mean that your system has changed from that which is used to produce standard bioware implants. As a GM, I would say that this means that a Vampire cannot have Type-O System.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 13 2010, 02:19 AM

You misunderstand me. I don't mean 'friends with guns who will come looking when you don't show up to the next meet' I mean 'friends with guns who are hanging out in the operating room'

Posted by: Starmage21 Sep 13 2010, 02:45 AM

I believe the argument is that the hmhvv could also bring you in line with type o in the same way it could change/invalidate existing type o.

Its magic and science interaction were talking about here. The only question you should have is "is it broken?" And if the answer is no then you build whatever technobabble you need to make it work.

You people make this shit harder than it needs to be I swear

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 13 2010, 02:49 AM

It seems unlikely that Type O would happen to be the same as Infected genes. The simplest interpretation is that Type O lets non-delta bioware count as delta for the purpose of Essence cost *only*; it doesn't work for shapeshifters, sapient critters, infected, etc. As was said in the very first reply. This is not 'RAI interpretation'. The rules say:

The use of 'i.e.' means that essence cost reduction is the only effect; if it meant 'all purposes', then it would say 'e.g.', because essence cost reduction would be only one example of multiple effects.

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 13 2010, 03:18 AM

I enjoyed this post.

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 13 2010, 06:11 AM

Even if allowed to be a type-O vampire, you should still pay more than base price.

Why ? While off-the-rack bioware itself may cost you the same price as for everybody else, the implantation procedure is highly customized, one-of-a-kind and likely to need the use of specific tools and products, not to mention a pretty specialized knowledge I don't expect your average street doc to possess - think at least beta or possibly delta clinic.

Regeneration is the first hurdle to overcome, things like incisions, the removal of an organ to replace it with the bioware version etc become much more complex. Immunity to Toxins is likely to be problematic too. Two exemples : do usual anaesthetic work on your vampiric physiology ? Or muscle relaxants ?

Posted by: Starmage21 Sep 13 2010, 12:19 PM

The Toxins question might require more thought, but all thats necessary to surpress your regeneration is sticking you under a UV lamp (as much as a retarded cop-out as it is, at least it follows pop culture).

Posted by: Jaid Sep 13 2010, 08:51 PM

i doubt there are very many doctors who will let you into the operating room with guns. you'd all have to be sterilized, for one thing, and you'd be getting in the way during difficult surgical procedures. furthermore, if any of you even know enough about surgery to know when the doctor is trying something funny, odds are good you don't need the street doc anyways.

besides, if the street doc waits until you're gone and then sells the information about what you are, he'll still make a fair bit of money. and if you come back (given that street docs with the knowledge and willingness to work on vampires is fairly rare, you'll most likely have to), he can be prepared for it. once again, the people who would love to get their hands on a type O vampire have resources to spare, much much more than the average shadowrunning team.

Posted by: Starmage21 Sep 13 2010, 11:54 PM

And that hopefully means plenty of room for side-stories involving your contacts, and not necessarily GM dickery.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 14 2010, 12:53 AM

so it's GM dickery to actually live up to the description of the ability? it's not like the ability says you should go ahead and announce to the world your rare physiological advantage. in fact, the quality explicitly goes out of it's way to tell you that unpleasant people may essentially develop an interest in vivisecting you to see what makes you tick. it's not like the GM *forced* you to take a quality that explicitly says it will have drawbacks, is it? i would argue that if you're taking a quality that makes it appealing for others to want to perform incredibly unpleasant laboratory procedures on you, then you should not be surprised if sooner or later, somebody gets an urge to perform incredibly unpleasant laboratory procedures on you.

you may as well complain that your GM allowed you to buy a used vehicle because it has flaws in it, or that your second hand cyberware has an increased essence cost. it's not the GM being a dick when you chose to take the risk yourself, any more than the GM is being a dick if someone decides to collect a bounty on ghouls if your character is a ghoul, or any more than the GM is being a dick if your ork character is treated like crap by human supremacists. that's what the setting says *should* happen.

now sure, if you happen to have a loyalty 6 street doc contact who would know how to operate on people with regeneration and has access to bioware (and an appropriate background explaining it), no problem. go nuts. and as long as you treat your contact like you're loyalty 6 to him as well, it's not likely to ever evolve into a problem. but i'd have to see a pretty danged impressive background to let that fly in my gaming group (indeed, for any loyalty 6 contact, i expect to see a good explanation in the background and good roleplaying to support it)

Posted by: Rystefn Sep 14 2010, 11:25 PM

...or, you get the surgery with your friends in the room because he's a street doc and doesn't care as much about sterilization as a normal doc (and neither should you with your immunity to pathogens, right?) and he's probably used to paranoid shadowrunners insisting on security like that anyway (you are already paranoid about security anyway, right?), you get off the table and make sure everything works as advertised (since you Regen, you should recover from surgery pretty quick, right?), then you geek the doc right there to keep your secret. Don't forget to set up the area jammer during the procedure so no messages get out. Leave the corpse in the can out back for the ghouls, cast a quick Sterilize spell on the way out. No muss. No fuss.

This ain't exactly rocket science, people.

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 15 2010, 01:51 AM

type O system is only for bioware not cyberware. Pg 20 of augmented.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 15 2010, 05:05 AM

Because street docs are so concerned about being sterile, what with being street docs and all, especially when dealing with someone/something that can't get sick. And it is very difficult to tell the difference between, oh, say, putting organs in a body and making a call on the commlink. And corners don't exist, not at all.

Sure, I agree that the doc could make some good money by selling the info after the fact, but at that point, I think that is totally fair game. And at that point the vampire goes through the list of three people that knows their secret now that orgenleggers are suddenly after him/her like crazy. Doc may make some money, but not enough to keep a vampire shadowrunner off their case. And they may stand to make more money just keeping quiet and charging a nice premium for working on an infected. I mean is the one time boost of cash from selling out a vampire really worth having a vampire (and likely friends)? Especially with all the bonus pay you should be getting for specifically keeping quiet and working on infected?

You're right, the orgenleggers have more resources than the SR team, but the Doc is likely to be worried about their personal safety, and just like with corps, it is a question of actually bringing those resources to bare.

So sure, there are possible complications, and you have to be careful, but you're making it sound like the instant you get any sort of implant ever you will instantly be teleported to a dark room with orgenleggers pulling parts out of you forever.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 15 2010, 01:29 PM

Not to mention that street docs like their reputations too. One doesn't get a lot of work when one gets the rep of selling his patients to organleggers.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 15 2010, 01:45 PM

Y'know the intro to Payback, when Mel Gibson's being worked on in a grimy kitchen of some fat guy who sterilizes his tools (and his brain cells) in a glass of whiskey?

Yeah, that's what a 'runner gets 9 times out of 10.

Posted by: Walpurgisborn Sep 15 2010, 01:58 PM

The million or so he pulls for selling a type O Vamp is probably enough to set him for life. Don't really need much of a reputation when you're baking yourself brown on some Carribean island.

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 15 2010, 05:02 PM

I go with the point made earlier. Who wants infected body parts.

If the vampire regenerates them and you have a market for them. Why not cut a deal with the vampire to harvest parts and split the money with him. Longer term gain and no loss of rep. Is it better to sell one kidney or 20 kidneys.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 05:11 PM

Even assuming Type O worked with Infected (and it doesn't), you're right: no one wants an Infected kidney. Best case, it's rejected; worst case, you die.

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 15 2010, 05:53 PM

I don't recall anything in the rules saying it doesn't work with infected. Common sense says that if you put infected parts in someone they become infected.

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 15 2010, 05:56 PM

No, becaust this specific strain of HMVV has the Infection power for vector. No use of the power (which requires draining the Essence of whoever you want to infect to 0), no transmission...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 06:01 PM

Yes, that'd be between the best case and the worst case. You'd be a carrier, maybe. It's all house rules.

I was just talking about a house rules situation (no Type-O Infected), because there are no rules for Infected organ donation, either. (AFAIK.)

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 15 2010, 06:52 PM

I was talking about type o system working on the infected.

Posted by: sabs Sep 15 2010, 06:54 PM

I would imagine that becoming one of the living undead might alter your type-o ness just a little

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 06:56 PM

And so was I: they (vampires) can have it, but it doesn't do anything. Type O only reduces the Essence cost of non-Delta, and a vampire will need real Delta in the first place. Therefore, it's easier just to house rule that they can't have it, instead of the RAW (they can have it, it just does nothing).

It's my fault for accidentally saying 'Infected' instead of 'vampires'. For non-Regenerating Infected, Type O could certainly help. Ghouls, for example.

Posted by: sabs Sep 15 2010, 07:00 PM

A Ghoul shadowrunner would die within the first 10 minutes of game play
And what streetdoc is going to operate on a ghoul? given the.. unfortunate /touch/ infection pathogen.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:13 PM

I didn't say it would work, I said it made sense.

In seriousness, yes, all the rules are incredibly broken, but we all manage to play the game anyway. I bet you could find a few ghoul characters played by Dumpshock users.

Posted by: sabs Sep 15 2010, 07:15 PM

I'm sure i could. Although why didn't the first Security WageMage they came across just nuke them from Astral Space until they died i'll never know. Probably a nice GM.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:21 PM

Indeed. There's almost no reason for any dual-natured (non-projecting) entity to exist, because they'd be killed so easily, as we all know. It's just something you have to ignore to play the game.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 15 2010, 07:26 PM

Except that Type O would work for vampires.


(Weird, my new PDF reader copies lots of spaces Edit: and then the post takes them away so I sound like I'm crazy )

Note the important part: "is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body."

And in order for a vampire's regeneration to not reject bioware it needs to be delta grade. So, combine 'is considered delta grade' with 'needs to be delta grade' and you get success. The i.e. part is correct for the time of the book's printing, because when augmentation came out, grades of bioware had no purpose (when 'interacting with the body') besides reducing the essence cost. The ability to bypass regeneration's rejection of ware didn't yet exist.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:29 PM

As I said before, it says "(i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same)". That means that's what "purposes of interacting with a type O body" means, and nothing else. You can't go assuming things about printing timing.

As everyone said earlier in the thread, you're free to house rule that. Nothing wrong with house rules.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 15 2010, 07:38 PM

RAW, sure, you're right, RAI, likely not.

And it is fairly questionable as far as English is concerned once you consider future printings.

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 15 2010, 07:39 PM

"Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta-grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body" pg 20 augmented

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:39 PM

Again, nothing wrong with 'house' interpretations of the rules. You're supposed to do that. I don't play 'RAW', but it's what we discuss things using.

Triggvi, we've already quoted that 2, maybe 3 times. That's what we're talking about, man… for the whole thread.

Personally, and once again, this is a house rule situation, I'd agree with Dahrken: the virus changes your DNA, and there's no way Type O includes Infected DNA. That's not RAW, either.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 15 2010, 07:45 PM

The novel "World War Z: An Oral Histroy of the Zombie War" deals with infected parts from China being sold to a black clinic in Brazil where they are implanted into rich Westerners who can't get to the top of the donor lists in their own countries.

Infection was, fast.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 15 2010, 07:46 PM

I figure that's likely the best way to do it as well. Infection would alter you away from Type O.

RAW vampires can have Type O, but it doesn't technically do anything.
RAI vampires can have Type O, and it is awesome.
CS vampires can't have Typoe O.

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 15 2010, 07:52 PM

raw vampires can have it and it works normally. The quote from pg 20 augmented. I agree it is cheesy way of getting bioware. As a GM i would not allow it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:56 PM

Again, no. That's not the RAW, unless you have an update or errata file for Augmentation that changes 'i.e.' to 'e.g.'. As we all know, it really doesn't matter in practice (i.e., in real games). If something's legal but the GM/table doesn't want it, it won't be allowed anyway; if something's illegal but the GM/table wants it, it will be allowed regardless.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 15 2010, 07:57 PM

RAW says that Vampires need delta-grade bio. RAW states that any character with Type O treats basic bioware as delta for the 'purposes of interacting with the body'. There is no rule stating any incompatability with the Type O quality and Vampirism, nor is there any rule saying Type O doesn't apply to Vampires in the same way. You can assume that the infection changes your DNA in such a way that it isn't compatable, but by true RAW, you are incorrect.

Also, ghouls can be non-infectious, and it actually costs less karma. Makes wanting to play one much easier.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 15 2010, 07:59 PM

No, you have to include the i.e. I.e. is different from e.g. E.g. is 'for example' and i.e. is 'this is exactly what it means and nothing else'

So, 'i.e., reduces essence cost' means 'what was previously said means to reduce essence cost and nothing else'

You can't read parts of rules in seclusion.

RAI I'm sure that e.g. should have been used instead of i.e., but there you have it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:59 PM

Yes: if you intentionally ignore parts of the text, you can make it say different things. The rule clearly says that the one and only function of Type O is that non-delta bioware has the Essence cost of delta. It is compatible with being a vampire, just worthless.

This is just for the sake of argument, of course. In a game, the GM will decide, and that's the end of it.

Yeah, X-Calibur, I'd totally make the non-infectious quality *cost* BP. It's ridiculous.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 15 2010, 08:01 PM

"I didn't finish reading the book." "You stopped reading at the word 'pig's'? It wasn't even the end of the sentence."

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 15 2010, 08:15 PM

was that a personal attack? I hope I am reading that wrong.

I agree that it comes to the GM to decide if he wants it in his game.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 15 2010, 08:23 PM

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/american_dad_quotes3.shtml

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 08:25 PM

Ha, in what universe could that be a personal attack?

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 15 2010, 08:54 PM

Is delta grade bioware harder to destroy, malfunction or more costly to repair? Because obviously type-o would not add those effects. That's what I thought that only for essence part was all about.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 08:56 PM

Yes, it is. Augmentation, p127.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 15 2010, 09:19 PM

Very correct, but it also technically means (because it uses i.e. instead of e.g.) that 'able to be used in something that regenerates' is another of those effects that does not get added. A small difference, but that is usually what separates RAW from RAI.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 15 2010, 09:44 PM

"This damn cold... Don't worry. I could cut open your chest and sew a dead cat in there. You wouldn't get an infection. Not with the antibiotics I'll shoot into you."



I would have to hazard a guess that a vampire might be a little choosy about which doc he'd go to to get bioware installed. Someone reliable. Someone who has a rep for keeping patient confidentiality. Someone off the books.

If the vamp was really smart, he'd engineer it so that if anything bad happened to him as a result of any of the doc's actions, bad bad things would happen to the doc. And make this clear to the doc before going under the knife.




-karma

Posted by: Rystefn Sep 16 2010, 01:52 AM

No it doesn't. Latin fail. I.E. means "that is." It is a clarification. It in no way means that it is the entirety of the meaning and nothing else could possibly be included. It is clarifying that it only counts as delta for direct interaction with the body not for such things as cost or availability. Nothing about that sentence so much as implies that it shouldn't count for Regen rejecting it.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 16 2010, 02:08 AM

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/abbreviations/f/ievseg.htm

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 02:11 AM

It is indeed clarification. Specifically, restatement. That implies that the new phrasing fully replaces the previous.

Posted by: Rystefn Sep 16 2010, 02:13 AM

Yes, exactly. Kindly show me anywhere in that which states that i.e. means "exactly that and nothing else."

I assure you it says no such thing, and even if it did, since when was about.com the authority on either Latin or English?

Posted by: Rystefn Sep 16 2010, 02:16 AM

Were that the case, the previous statement serves no purpose and would not be included, rendering the the entire concept of i.e. completely unnecessary. No, it implies nothing of the sort. It is clarification. If you want to act as though it is a restatement fully replacing the previous, then you are using nonstandard English, and you may as well say that i.e. means frog-farts, which causes the sentence to mean the exact opposite of what it says, because you're just making up your own rules anyway at that point.

Posted by: Laodicea Sep 16 2010, 02:24 AM

You guys should keep arguing about this. Someone is WRONG on the INTERNET and all they need is your fiery guidance to set them straight.

Back on topic: Type-o is really expensive. Vampire is realy expensive. The two of them together make a character with very little BP left for anything like skills or Wares. For 400bp, it's not overpowered. Depending on your GMs rewards of cash/karma, it might have a great deal of potential to be overpowered, but its not, out of the box. I think it's fine. I'd allow it in my game.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 02:30 AM

That's entirely incorrect, Rystefn. There's no reason that restatement makes the previous statement 'serve no purpose'.

Posted by: Rystefn Sep 16 2010, 02:35 AM

If it "fully replaces" the previous statement, then there is no reason for the previous statement to still exist. The fact that it does shows us that the latter statement does not, in fact, "fully replace" it. As a writer, when I "fully replace" one statement with another, it is with the delete key. If the previous statement still exists and is still being used in thew work in question, then it has not been "fully replaced" at all. It has been clarified, but not "fully replaced."

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 02:38 AM

That's not what that phrase means.

There's nothing wrong with about.com; don't be mean to things simply for disagreeing with you. In any case, every reference you check will give that same meaning for 'i.e.'.

Posted by: Rystefn Sep 16 2010, 02:47 AM

Which meaning? The one on about.com, which does not disagree with me, or the one you assert? They are different, you know. I've seen no reference anywhere, including the linked about.com article, which attempted to claim i.e. means "exactly that and nothing else" except this thread. In fact, the about.com you think disagrees with me specifically says that i.e. indicates a clarification, which is what I said. Really. Go look again. I'll wait.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 02:50 AM

Neither. I was referring to your repeated redefining of 'fully replace' to create a straw man.

And you're doing it again. I never said that 'i.e.' wasn't for clarification. I think you'll find that I explicitly stated that it is. So is 'e.g.'; it's irrelevant, and no one is disputing it.

Posted by: Rystefn Sep 16 2010, 03:05 AM

LoL... Yes, I'm the one redefining things. I mean, when I "fully replace" the wiper blades on a car, the old ones are generally still there as well. And when you "fully replace" a light bulb, I suppose you leave the old one in the socket, too?

Of course accusing me of attacking a straw man while doing so yourself is the icing on the hypocrisy cake here, since I never accused you of saying i.e. wasn't for clarification. I accused you of narrowing the type of clarification so much as to make it a waste to have even said the previous bit in the first place, which you did.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 16 2010, 03:11 AM

"Fully replace" was perhaps poor wording, but what he's saying is essentially correct.

Posted by: Rystefn Sep 16 2010, 03:32 AM

I disagree. What he's saying is incorrect. "Fully replace" may have been poor wording, but it is no more and no less incorrect than "exactly this and nothing more." I.e. does not mean that, and it never has. It indicates a rewording for clarity. An anticipation that there may be some confusion as to the meaning of the previous statement because it was somewhat ambiguous (or because its intended audience have a well deserved reputation for insisting that words mean things they clearly do not mean), perhaps.

Allow me to draw a parallel, if you will. Say we were talking about the rules of American football, rather than ShadowRun. Say further that the expanded rule book had a passage that read as follows: "When playing the Two Completes for a First Down variation of the game, the offensive team gains first downs in a different manner, i.e. they do not gain a first down for progressing ten yards." Does this mean that gaining first downs in a different manner means only that you do not gain first downs for progressing ten yards and nothing more? Or does it mean that that there is also a different way to gain first downs? By your reading, in the Two Completes for a First Down variation of American football, there is no way for the offensive team to gain a first down.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 03:33 AM

Those are both physical objects, not parts of sentences.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 16 2010, 03:36 AM

I wish I knew more about football, so I could tell if you are using i.e. correctly.

Time for some research, I suppose.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 03:47 AM

You should be using 'e.g.' in that example.

Posted by: Mooncrow Sep 16 2010, 04:09 AM

Ok, found the rule you were talking about. In this case, the author would be using i.e. incorrectly. You use i.e. to clarify or specify, and you cannot do that to only half of the statement's idea.

The correct form for your example would be:

"When playing the Two Completes for a First Down variation of the game, the offensive team gains first downs in a different manner, i.e. instead of gaining a first down for progressing ten yards, they gain a first down for two pass completions."

Of course, it's not a very good place for an i.e. to begin with, but there you have it.