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Posted by: Jonny Reload Sep 11 2010, 04:14 PM

In Unwired, there's an Echo called Swap which can be taken twice. Each time it lowers the penalty for sustaining threading by 1... So if you take it twice, does this mean you can just keep an unlimited amount of threads going?

Even worse, if you take the Bioware Echo, does this mean you have an infinite amount of skills at your finger tips?!?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2010, 04:19 PM

It would appear that way from the Rule Set...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 11 2010, 04:19 PM

I thought there were a limit on how many threading attempts you could take, equal to like your Resonance or something...

And with Biowire: yeah, basically. But that one's integral to the skill. You get skillwires and the ability to emulate skillsofts, but since they're Complex Forms, they don't take up any memory space. That = theoretically infinite skillsofts emulated.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2010, 04:22 PM

As long as you have both levels of Swap at least... otherwise you take a penalty to your Rolls due to Sustaining...

Posted by: Jonny Reload Sep 11 2010, 04:42 PM

I don't think there is unless you can find me a page reference... I don't think there complex forms are ruled by the same rules as response.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2010, 04:44 PM

They are not... You may have an unlimited number of Complex Forms, running at any given time, and your Bionode does not suffer at all...

Posted by: Neraph Sep 11 2010, 05:01 PM

I wasn't talking about Complex Forms, but Threading attempts. And I may be just simplefying the "-2" for sustaining into a certain number that above which you can't thread anymore, as your dicepool is now 0 or less.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2010, 07:18 PM

Gotcha... but with Swap (2 Levels) you no longer suffer any Sustaining Modifiers for Threading... by the Book at least... so it effectively approaches unlimited unless I am missing something...

Also, I am Not sure about the Threading Attempts vs. Actual Threading in your post above... Are you talking about how many times you are allowed to Thread a Specific CF? I know that that interpretation Can't be right, but for some reason I am confused... been a long day already...

Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 11 2010, 07:56 PM

The problem as i see it is that threading negatives are -2 pr sustained thread. But the text in unwired do not seem to touch on the reduction being applied to the total or the pr thread modifier. That is, should the swap echo be applied before "multiplying" or after?

edit:
never mind, should have checked the errata. Ye gods.

Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 11 2010, 08:28 PM

I don't see anywhere it applies a modifier per CF. So with lvl 2 Swap, the first thread is free, but no more than that.

Otherwise, it would also be totally overpowered, wouldn't it?

Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 11 2010, 08:40 PM

check the errata, it mentions that it applies to the modifier...

as for overpowered, it costs the TM two echos (meaning two submersions and the accompanying karma cost).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2010, 08:57 PM

Way I read that is that it modifies the Sustaining Penalty per CF... so if you have both levels... No Sustaining Modifiers for CF's...
And yeah, it is 2 Submersions... Not so big a deal since the Technomancer did not suffer the Sustaining Modifier for the threaded CF being actively used anyways... it is nice, but not overpowered in my opinion...

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 11 2010, 09:11 PM

Simply having a huge number of skills soft available is not that much worse than having huge numbers of skill wires running all at the same time. You do not need that many skills all the time. Changing what skills are running before you use them as apposed to having them always on.

Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 11 2010, 09:15 PM

Not overpowered? You can pre-thread "at home", until you get enough hits to reach 2xResonance for your CF rating, then sustain it, and continue through several CFs that way and sustain them all. You're only limited by what fading you can handle.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 11 2010, 09:21 PM

And?

Maybe your problem is allowing such things to continue... Not once have I ever seen our Technomancer do what you just said... Not once...

Posted by: Udoshi Sep 11 2010, 10:15 PM

Yeah, the errata file.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 11 2010, 10:17 PM

Tymeaus, as always, your players magically avoid any game imbalance. Back in the real world, it's an issue. The idea is that the rules shouldn't be broken by design, relying on the players or the GM to say, 'nah, I think I'll deliberately hold myself back'.

Posted by: jakephillips Sep 12 2010, 12:02 AM

Yep, If left to RAW all complex forms at 12 or 14 until he sleeps and can no longer sustain the complex forms. I know some of you folks hate houserules but you might want to make a change to limit in some way. I would choose to limit it in some way.

Posted by: Surukai Sep 12 2010, 01:08 AM

I hate the swap double echo for practical reasons. Yes it is imba with rating 12 programs where normal crappy hackers can barely hit rating 6 and is hardcapped at that level and hopelessly behind but the real problem is that every day starts with the technomancer rolling a mountain of dice rolls and boring every other player to death. This is the problem with technomancers already, they take way too much dicerolling just to do mundane tasks and all the other players sit there and yawn angrily wishing the technomancer to go F himself and his sprite rereregistration...

In my group we all sit there and HOPE he takes big time physical fading so he stops. The mage refuses to cast Increase Body on him to help him heal because it only means even more time sinks.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2010, 02:49 AM

It Has absolutely nothing to do with holding yourself back... It Has a lot more to do with being a responsible player who is just as interested in other's player's fun as their own... I did not say that it cannot be abused, all I said is that I have yet to actually see it... that is Two very different things...

But lets be honest here... there is not really ANY ruleset that cannot be abused if you put enough thought into it... Why would you want to though? After all, it is not a contest between the player and the GM... Or, maybe it is, but not at our table...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2010, 02:51 AM

Just a simple note here... Programs are not Hard-Capped at Rating 6. HIgher rated programs are available, you just have to work at obtaining them a bit...

How about you roll some of those Technomancer rolls with another player that the GM trusts while the GM attends to the game? Works for us, for both Technomancers (and their Sprites) and for Mages (and their Spirits)...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2010, 02:55 AM

Read the Eratta File... Sustaining penalties are per CF... if you have -2 Sustaining penalty PER CF, then you have NO Sustaining Penalties... per Eratta...

Same goes with Spells actually... And this argument is an old one... IS the Sustaining Penalty per Spell (Yes, Yes it is)... Do they Stack (They do at our table)... Unfortunately, some people on Dumpshock do not like that, because if they Stack, then Heightened Concentration can compensate for Multiple Spells being Sustained...

Can't have it both ways... if They do not Stack, then SWAP works per CF (As indicated in the text of the ability, even in Eratta)...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2010, 02:57 AM

But who really cares about Sustained, Threaded Rating 12 CF's? I know I don't... so it shaves off a IP or two for certain Matrix FUnctions... Big deal. A competent Hacker is already going through your systems anyways... Hell, My Hacker is generally better at the Hacking game than our equivalent Technomancer on about half of the rolls (We both have about 300 Karma)... so what if they do not suffer a Sustaining Penalty...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 12 2010, 03:07 AM

It's *all* about holding yourself back; you just described 'holding yourself back'. Do your players also buy Wires 3, but leave them turned off to avoid making the game less fun? The point of rules-based games is precisely *to* limit people, instead of relying on them to just 'not be overpowered'.

I care about having all my programs at 12. Sign me up! Given that programs are everything, you're simply not making sense, Tymeaus. They certainly do more than 'shave off an IP or two'. Stealth 12 is the classic example, or Command 12 for riggers…

You might as well say, 'who really cares about emotitoys for all skills?' Free +6 to everything, but only for certain players.

It is functionally impossible to get programs above 6. It's like finding deltaware or a nuclear sub.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2010, 03:59 AM

Absolutely Wrong there Yerameyahu... I do not quantify my characters by how many dice I throw in a Game...
And your Emotitoy example is obviously incorrect as well... I have gone around the Boards on this one, and I am still amazed that it gets brought up so often... Empathy Software has very harsh limits on how it runs outside of an Emotitoy... Remove the Emotitoy, and you have the same restrictions on Empathy/Sensor Software that you have with ALL Software... the average runner is goung to get a +3 Dice to the relevant skills (If he even cares, I have seen many that do not)... why, because most devices capable of running it top out at Rating 3 unless you take steps to increase the base platform...

It is NOT Functionally impossible to have software rated higher than 6 (The Rules even allow for it)... I have a program or two, in game, that are that high (I have a rated 7 Agent after all)...
And as for Deltaware, also not functionally impossible (Just managed to upgrade my suite to Deltaware recently)...

Does it take time? Yes...
Does it require Resources that you may want to devote elsewhere? Yes...
Does it take effort on both the GM's and Players part? Yes...
Is it Impossible? No...

Programs are not everything Yerameyahu... as SO MANY PEOPLE are fond of saying, the difference between 6 and 12 dice is only 6 Dice (Average 2 Successes)... That being the case, it is NOT Everything... You are exagerating... Do Higher rated programs make things quicker... Possibly... But again, my anecdotal evidence does not show that... Our Technomancer often Threads his Stealth to 13+, and yet he OFTEN gets seen by the Systems we run against (Again, at our level we are not looking at hitting the local Stuffer Shack Systems here)... WHY? Because it is an OPPOSED ROLL, NOT A THRESHOLD (The only time Stealth is a Threshold is when you are Initiating a Hack into a System, once in, it is ALWAYS an opposed Roll)... Dice are capricious... And again, there are RULES in the Game to reign in the craziness if you do not like it... Like capping Hits on your Hacking Tests by your Logic (What a concept)... at that point, WHO CARES IF YOUR PREGRAMS ARE RATED AT 12+ when you only have a Logic of 4 (or in a Lot of character's cases, a Logic of 1-2)...

Technomancers pay for the ability to have CF's threaded to a very high level... they deserve to shine a bit... Just as a Street Samurai with Wired/MBW 3 deserves to shine when he whips out his weapons and goes to town against the opposition. It is no less fun for me to watch an interesting combat, even if I only have 2 Passes (the case with the current game we are playing in)... My Primary character has 3 Passes... And yet, I am not the fastest character in our group (The Mages/Technomancer are aften faster than I am)... And a point... I often turn off my Wired/MBW to blend into the crowd; it has absolutely nothing to do with it being unfair to other player's characters...

Yes, Rules give Structure to a game... But the Rules do not hold me back. Nor do I feel a sense of personal angst if someone is better optimized than I am, or chooses a different path than I do. Our GM is up to the challenge of a myriad array of characters, and I always have to laugh when I hear someone say that it is the GM's/Rules job to hold people back... that is a bunch of bunk.

A lot of issues with the game, and player's Characters, can be solved before the game even starts by reviewing what the Player wants and actually looking at character sheets... if you are afraid to tell a player "No, that is not how it works... What is your goal here? Let me Help you with that." Well, then it is not the Game's fault that the character is broken...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 12 2010, 04:09 AM

Exactly as I said: functionally impossible. In the realm of GM fiat. Essentially out of the question and out of the discussion.

You didn't mention that you were using alternate Matrix rules. It kinda, y'know, changes everything? I, like everyone else, would assume you were using the default rules, Tymeaus. In the default rules, programs with *double* the rating of what anyone else can reasonably obtain is a big deal. It's not 'just 6 dice, just 2 successes'; it's double. It's 6 *more* than the other guy, 2 net successes against him. It's every definition of a big deal. It's the penalty for being *blind*, or for meatspace actions while using full VR. It's huge.

Nope, wrong. The entire point of rules-mediated games is to provide the framework for conflict resolution. The rules, by definition, hold you back. They define the limits of what is possible. That's what they're for. I certainly never said anyone 'didn't deserve to shine'. I said that it's not a non-issue if one character can get +6 to *all* his actions.

I assume what the player 'wants' is Rating 12 for every program he uses. 'Let me help you with that'? It's absolutely the game's fault, because that *is* how it works. That player isn't cheating, or even exploiting the rules; he's just playing normally.

Your argument (perennially) is that rules imbalance never matters, because all players are angels who would never intentional or unintentionally use that imbalance. I know that you say that's your experience, and I'm saying that's wonderful; it's also unique. You shouldn't apply your anecdotal 'evidence' to the game in general.

Not that it matters, but you're wrong about the emotitoy (again). It's nigh-trivial to get Empathy running at 6 elsewhere, and why would you need to? You've got an emotitoy already. Or did you ban them and not tell me?

Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 12 2010, 11:04 AM

If there is no choice, there is no balance. Increase hackingrelated skills? Increase CFs? Get Swap lvl 2? It is a total nobrainer, Swap lvl 2 gives a HUGE boost to everything.

It is still one of the best echoes if it only applies once - you'll always have your Stealth threaded with the benefit of multiple attempts at high rolls, and you can still thread other CFs per use. It is super awesome.

Posted by: ShadowWalker Sep 12 2010, 12:33 PM

How this works depends on how you look at the way the modifiers work.
It can remove 1 modifier per level up to 2. So the first Threading is free,
but each threading after the first are unmodified as you have already
used up your 2 modifiers levels.

This is how I read the rules, or at least how I think they should be read.

Posted by: Surukai Sep 12 2010, 12:36 PM

There is a tiny balancing factor with fading that at least force the technomancer to still keep some complex forms but it do eliminate the need for most CFs in a retarded way.

It had been more sane if the -2 sustaining penalty had applied only to drain/fading resistance instead of everything and thus eliminate the violent need for swapx2.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2010, 04:51 PM

I am NOT using the optional rules from RAW for Hacking... even if that would be my preference... But that is neither here nor there...
I can agree that the Rules define what is possible, but you are not held back as long as you stay within the rule set. I can do anything, as long as the rule set allows it... Your statement that "it's not a non-issue if one character can get +6 to *all* his actions" is irrelevant, because there is no mechanic in the game that would allow that, so the argument itself is false... Are you really going to complain if the situational Skill (Automatics for Instance) that is currently required, has characters with a Dice Pool Difference of 6-10 as problematic? For Example... The face who is competant with 8-10 Dice, while the Street Sam has 18-20 Dice. What you should be comparing are the Street Samurai, or the Face, not one against the others...

IF 2 Technomancers can both thread to 12 on a CF, and One takes what he gets on the roll for threading and just rolls with it, accomplishing the goals with what he threaded (and all it takes, statistically, is a whopping 1 Second more to accomplish), why should he be looked down upon? The other Technomancer does the opposite... He Threads, and can only get to CF 8, does not like the result, and Threads again (At that point, it is a Simple Action, you do not get an unlimited "Buy" to get where you want to be with Threading after all, even if that is an interpretation, as Threading takes no real time). This continues until he gets to CF 12. Now, someone will say, "But he could do that in the Morning as long as he has Swap at 2 levels, and then it stays that way." Sure... HE could,a nd deal with ALL of the attendant Physical Drain (I will not let the Technomancer apply no damage because he did not take any of the boosts... that is breaking the intent of the rules). This is probably why our Technomancer Players (I am one of them now) do not just Thread until they are at the Maximum Boost to their CF.

As for the argument that 6 dice is a Big Deal in the grand scheme of things... Have you even read the Threads describing, in very great detail, the dissatisfaction that most Dumpshockers feel is the difference between a 0 Skill Rank and a 6 Skill Rank? It is just 6 ranks, and 6 dice, after all. Not only is it the most common argument in those threads, it is hammered time and time again at those of us who believe that the Fluff matters... I do not remember where you fall on that argument, but the majority here see that as the biggest drawback of a Skill System with only a Range of 1-7... Personally, I do not agree. But I try to structure this argument so that it will appeal to the vast majority.

What I will say is this... I do believe that the difference is great (6 Dice IS 6 Dice, and even if the average result of those 6 Dice is only 2 Net Successes, teh reality is that it is a range of 1-6 Successes)... BUT, in the long run, that is the difference in Hacking of only 1 IP worth of actions, so NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL in the long run (Really, only a single seconds worth of actions for the typiucal hacker with 3 IP in VR)... If that Single IP's worth of actions destroys your game, then something else is entirely wrong here...

Sure... If a technomancer wants to get to Rating 12 in his threaded CF's, he is free to do so, but what I was arguing against is the "I will just roll it until I get there and then sustain it forever" mentality that is prevelant here... People argue that if you can have unlimited threaded CF's that this practice will be common... And I countered with evidence (Anecdotal to be sure) that that is not the case... Our Technomancer does not do this, even though he has Swap at 2 Levels. Typically, he threads CF's when he needs them, and then sustains the ones that he needs AT THAT TIME... it is always situational at our table.

Also, because I know it will come up... What about the Hacker, is he lefgt out in the cold? Absolutely not... If you want a rating 12 Program, you will either have to program it yourself (Very Time Consuming), or you find a Software R&D Facility and you see if you can steal one. The book mentions that it is available (At the GM's Discretion), so why would you not allow the Character the chance to try to obtain one. It WILL likely become the focus of many sessions, if not a complete story arc, but there is no reason to deny the character the chance to obtain it.

ALSO, I never said it does not matter in a theoretical sense... But, In Practice, most of the things that are claimed to be "Just SO Broken" in theory, I have yet to see in actual Practice... Theory crafting is all well and good, but is not representative of any games that I have played in (Personal OR Convention). Maybe your games dwell more in the theoretical realm... Mine do not... Evidence, even anecdotal, still refutes the claim that it always happens in a game.

As for the Emotitoy... It was banned immediately upon the introduction of the Arsenal Ruleset. Mentioned it many times, and had protracted discussions with Cain about it as well... The emotitoy is ridiculous in its base form. If you want an emotitoy in our game (No Runner has even wanted it), then you buy a drone, mod it out to the best rating you can get (Typically Rating 5 matrix Stats, as they can only be upgraded by +2) and then you buy the empathy software (Rating 5, Remember)... the cost offsets the benefits when approached this way. In Practice, what happens at our table is the purchase of a sensor suite, with the program run on the device itself.

Finally (Yes, I know I am long winded today)... IF you are having trrouble at your table because your Players are Not "Angels" as you say, and they continue to abuse the system "Within the rules"... well, maybe the game should change to what the Players want rather than what the GM wants. I know that the GM structures the game, but without Players that want to play that game, there is no game. Our table went the other way. Our GM told us what the game was about, and we made characters that would fit that game. If we have a character build that is out of line, the GM reigns it in until it fits, or asks us to make a new character. That has only happened a time or two.

It takes both a GM and Players to have a game, and if they are not communicating their desires to each other, well, then your games will tend to have issues. I do not "Exploit" the rules within the TheoryCrafting realm, because it is not fun, for me or the other players. I have as much responsibility to my group as they have to me. If that balance changes, then it is addressed. The Players at our Table are by no means "Angels" but we do understand one another.

Sorry for the Wall of Text...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 12 2010, 05:02 PM

But here is the Thing... I see no Violent Need to have Swap... It is not even on my Technomancer's list of Echoes that she wants...

After all, You do not have a sustaining penalty to a CF that you are directly using... So yes, Swap is nice if you want 10 CF's running at all times, but it is far from a Requirement, as you can thread on the fly and use them when you really need them.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 12 2010, 07:41 PM

Again, you can't get rating 12 as a nonTM. Maybe, via GM-Fiat only, you could get one or two rating 7 programs. That's a vast gulf between what TM can get and what others can get, period. All 12s, versus all 6s. It's a huge deal.

Exactly: you're defending the Empathy software via a house rule, and you're defending this Swap imbalance via an optional rule. Neither are the default rules.

Again, I understand that (somehow) no imbalance problem ever comes up at your table. I accept it as fact, however incredible. That doesn't matter, though, because we're discussing the game in general, not your table. The fact that you don't see S&S abused, you don't see emotitoys abused, you don't see possession abused… this has zero effect on the *general* discussion of these rules, Tymeaus. You're lucky that there's no problem, but you're wrong to say that no problem can possibly exist. And you *do* say that, every time any discussion of any imbalance ever happens.

The issue is not munchkinry or bad GMing; the issue is broken-by-design rules. The rules are intended to be balanced. Even though it's an impossible goal, it's still the goal.

Posted by: Jaid Sep 12 2010, 11:25 PM

as i recall, there is a penalty for attempting the same action multiple times in SR4. haven't checked 4A for it specifically. but in any case, back in the day if you threaded stealth, didn't like the result, and tried again, you suffered -2 dice on the second attempt, -4 dice on the third, etc, until the GM deemed sufficient time had passed for you to make another attempt free of the modifier (personally, i would probably require that you actually attempt to use the program in an important situation before letting you attempt to thread it again free of penalty... and it would only clear 2 points of penalty away per time you use the program. or you could just wait for the next day, that would work too).

anyways, i don't see the emulated skillsofts being a huge issue. the TM would have to pay for their upkeep, and must have an actual copy of the skillsoft to emulate anyways. the only difference is that the TM doesn't have to buy skillwires with cash (instead, the technomancer must buy them with submersions). if the TM does not want to pay cash upkeep on the skillsofts he wishes to emulate, he must pay karma, and that's a resource which the TM desparately needs as well.

on a side note tymaeus, you do realise you've altered the rules for threading by not letting people avoid drain? as written, you can just choose to use 0 hits and you're good (although an alternate rule might require that you state how many hits you want to use *before* you roll, i suppose, but that would still be a house rule)

(personally, my opinion on threading: you should be able to just choose how much threading you want, resist the drain, which may be a bit higher to compensate for the ease of getting the higher numbers, and carry on. the maximum threading amount should equal your software skill (specialisation could actually increase the amount, even though it is not a modifier to the skill per se). perhaps significantly stronger, but also much less dice rolling)

Posted by: tagz Sep 13 2010, 12:00 AM

Now this goes into interpretation land. Did the character "fail" because they did not achieve the number they set for themselves and tried again, or did they NOT fail because they were successful in threading?

And take into consideration that if you say failed because of the intent, well then do we apply it to shooting a gun after the first shot misses, because even though they succeeded in firing they failed to hit? Not trying to derail here, just saying that the interpretation used here needs consistency with the rest of the game.

Posted by: Jonny Reload Sep 13 2010, 03:13 AM

Psssst, read pg. 115 of Unwired, it's called Optimization and Programming your own Software Just sayin...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 13 2010, 03:25 AM

Hehe. Oh yeah? So your *one* Rating 12 (Optimization 6) program will only take a Software + Logic (12, 1 month) test, then a Software + Logic (6, 1 month) test, and it will degrade; if we're talking about a Hacking program (and of course we are), that's Software + Logic (24, 1 month), then Software + Logic (6, 1 month). For one program.

Remember that -1/roll on Extended Tests isn't an optional rule by the current RAW (bleh). Hopefully, your GM won't be interested in the optional rule that any glitches cause bugs, because you'd also need to spend time finding and repairing those (Threshold 16, 1 week or 1 hour, depending on what part of the book you believe). There are some tricks to speed this whole process up, but they're not trivial: Rushing the Job should definitely be used in conjunction with the glitch=bugs rule, and hijacking a Programming Environment is a major ongoing hack all by itself.

Possibly you could bribe the GM to say that self-coded programs don't degrade, but the FAQ and Errata don't say they don't (and it's not logical for them not to). If you do convince your GM, you only have to repeat this process a *dozen* times or so, depending on how many things you want to be as good as that Technomancer at. Best case (no glitches at all, 100% uptime of Programming Environment), that's like 6 weeks for each of a dozen programs (well over a year), and assuming they magically don't degrade.

Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 13 2010, 07:51 AM

Actually, it seems that he's saying that 6 extra dice isn't enough of a difference to matter. By that definition, I guess he's right. Almost everything is indeed balanced withing 6 dice.

My imbaradar is a lot more sensitive than his, that's for sure.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 13 2010, 02:41 PM

Indeed: I'll take those +6 to *everything*, yes please!

Posted by: sabs Sep 13 2010, 09:20 PM

With most of my characters +6 is the difference between rolling 10-15 dice, and over 20

Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 13 2010, 09:31 PM

Actually, only the 15 dice gets over 20 with +6

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Sep 13 2010, 09:52 PM

From my understanding of the errata, self-programmed programs do not degrade by default especially in the -1 rating per month way. Instead it's moved to that ever fun land of GM's discretion (it's not even an optional rule anymore). Admittingly it's not the safest refuge, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

As for programming, you can easily reach a high enough software test to make a rating 12 hacking program even buying hits and extended test degradation (Logic 4 + Software 4 + Analytic Mind 2 + Programming Suite 5). However that program will take 13 months (11 months to make the program and 2 to make optimization 6) to make and that plays holy hell with almost any RPG timeline. Your teammates will kill you for having to pay over a year's worth of lifestyle cost though (spoofing helps but that makes programming take even longer). If you allowed people to program forever before play or hackers exist in some strange pocket of space-time (such as Missions), it could work.

On the other hand, forcing an archetype to sit in a basement for years drinking Mountain Dew so that he can play with others is terrible design.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2010, 01:05 AM

If you are going to emulate Skillsofts on a regular basis, the cheap/economical way to use them is to obtain cracked versions, Emulate them and then purchase them as a CF (Which you are allowed to do)... Degradation problem is solved at that point. Though you are right... it takes precious Karma to do so. Or you subscribe to a Service that charges you a base fee for Monthly Downloads on Demand (Yes, I know, GM Fiat), or just use the Freeware/Open Source Rating 4 Activesoft Programs (Yes, I know, ALSO GM Fiat)... Of course, you could always just buy them legally... upgrades are then free, and there is no worried about tracking your "Skillsofts" nbecause they are not actually on the web themselves...

I do realize that if I ran the Game, the TM would indeed be penalized because I do not believe in the "I will thread until I get what I want" method, especially with no penalty. I do know that the TM could indeed choose to apply 0 hits for 0 drain... I do not like that if it is abused. Fortunately, as Yerameyahu continues to remind me, the players at my table are approaching sainthood... They do not abuse it. In the end, It WOULD be a house rule, but unfortunately, I am not running the game, I am a player. Does not change the fact that I would love to institute a few changes here and there (Not many, just one or two actually)...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2010, 01:13 AM

The fact that it is difficult does not mean that it is impossible... You can indeed have access to Rating (Whatever) Programs depending upon what your GM will allow. Obviously, there are System Ratings above 6, There are Firewall Ratings above 6... the logic extends (And is supported by the Books) that you can have Programs rated higher than 6... It is Not even an Optional Rule by the book, just something that the GM controls. You know, like most of the game...

For me.. .I have 3 Programs rated higher than 6... One is a 7 (Agent), One is 10 (Encryption) and the Last is 10 (Stealth)... It did not take as long as you like to posit... Longest one took me 12 weeks if I remember correctly (The Agent). The rest I did in less than 3-4 Each. Was not as hard as you are Indicating... And yes, we use decrementing Dice Pools per roll. It Does not hurt you all that much when you have a Dice pool, with all applicable Bonuses, at around 17 Dice or so.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 02:18 AM

There's GM control and then there's GM control. If I've misrepresented the programming rules, point it out; to me, it looks pretty bleak.

Setting that aside, let's take a look: you have three whole programs above 6, and none are 12, and you apparently used someone specialized in programming. The Technomancer has all programs at 12, and doesn't need to spend the money, time, and skill points on it (yes, he needs the CFs and 2 Submersions). Advantage?

Hida Tsuzua, I agree that the GM could decide that the errata says that self-coded programs don't degrade, but it doesn't actually say that, and it's not a logical or balance interpretation. Regardless, it's as you say: still a beyond massive time sink, especially when taking into account the sheer number of programs one would want (hacking, common use, autosoft, pilot, system, sensor…), or even the smaller number one *needs*.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Sep 14 2010, 05:14 AM

The relevant quote is "Software programmed by the hacker and Open Source programs never degrade in this fashion, but may require patching to remain current at the gamemaster’s discretion." The -1 rating per month is the only degrading rules that exist and it points out that degrading is not due to SOTA but rather is a method to detour pirating (otherwise a rating 6 automatics skillsoft going to 0 in 6 months really doesn't make any sense). So a self-made program doesn't need to commit program suicide and thus doesn't degrade expect under GM's discretion. As I said, it's not an ironclad refugee, but it's likely to appear as any other GM's discretion thing like initiative boosts from tacnets and less likely than optional rules.

However, to program even a halfway decent program suite at rating 6 takes roughly 5 years. And that's just impossible for shadowrun to handle. Really high rating programs need to way more common and easy to get so everyone can play the rating 12 game, or overthreading needs to be cut down. I prefer the latter but either way works. Technomancers will be fine either way since they still get sprites and echos.

To get back to swap, it's crazy good since it annihilates one of the few checks on a technomancer's power, sustaining. They were generally good about this except for swap (no technomantic sustaining foci, RAM widget takes hours to make and causes fade). I wonder if limiting threads to Resonance or your System rating will help it out. You'll merely have a lot of Complex Forms and overthreads rather than all of them.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2010, 11:21 PM

Considering I am equal to the Technomancer in the time it takes me to hack a system, and often beat him in actually doing so, I would say the advantage is mine (Unless there is no Wireless Link, and he can use his Skinlink Echo, while I cannot access the Hardware Directly)... He is better than me at some Hacking Pools, and I generally beat him in others (Depends upon who may or may not spend edge)... which is about what you would expect with the capriciousness of the Dice pools, and IP's in General (He has 3 in VR, about to get his 4th, and I have 5)... When it comes to EW though, I FAR outshine him...

Yes... Programming takes time, but you can conceivably cut that time to 1/8th if you so desire (Programming Environment (1/2), Rush the Job (1/2), and Edge Expenditure (Optional Rule for 1/2)) which will make it feasible if you wish to go that route. Of course, if you reduce the Interval by spending Edge, you cannot Use Edge to add to the Roll...

It is not beyond the realm of possibility to Get ALL of your programs to the levels of a Technomancer, assuming you have a lot of Time and a GM willing to let you do so... Our Campaign has lasted for 2.5 Real Years of Game Time and has run for almost 15 months in Game, If I remember correctly. My Programs are not up to the Standards of the Technomancer at his Best, but His Best gives him a LOT of Fading, and he Rarely even tries to get to the Optimal Rating 14 CF that he could conceivably attain. Most of his CF's are not even a Rating 5, let alone a Rating 7 (Like his Stealth CF is)...

I will admit, though, that a FULLY OPTIMIZED Technomancer with all his CF's at Maximum before Threading, Two Submersions, and then the patience of the GM to allow him to continuously thread until he maximizes his CF Potential, with little to no attention paid towards the time this will take, and his PHYSICAL Fading (6 Boxes at Response 6) per CF... well then yes, this is Broken... If you are plagued with this scenario, I give you my condolences... But I have yet to see it in the years that SR4 has been in Print...

Posted by: UmaroVI Sep 15 2010, 01:10 AM

Uh, in-game time, it will take like a minute. Tops.

Basically, what you're saying is that the technomancer ... in Your group ... holds back ... in Order To not ... Overshadow ... you. That's very nice of him.
...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 15 2010, 01:37 AM

A Minute is a long time to be sitting there in the MAtrix doing absolutely NOTHING but Threading...

You would be very, very wrong in that assessment... He just does not relish the idea of him taking potentially 7-13 Physical Drain (1-6 Stun if resulting CF Equal to Resonance or lower) to go to the best CF he can get (14); he takes what he thinks he can deal with (As far as Damage) and then just moves along... Very Different attitude indeed...

And My technomancer has the Exact.... Same.... Philosophy.... (See, I can do that too... neat huh?)

I find it very funny that everyone is willing to just shrug off the Multiple hits of 6+Physical Damage to Thread to 12+ CF's... Seems very metagamey to me... I, for one, am not generally willing to just suck up the equivalent Damage of an Assault Rifle each and every time that I try to do something in the Matrix... I guess that normal Technomancers just don't worry about that kind of damage at all, do they? Get Real here...

Posted by: UmaroVI Sep 15 2010, 02:12 AM

You seem to Have ... missed The point ... of The Thread ... Swap lets technomancers ... not need To Go Anywhere ... in the Matrix to Thread ... they can do all the Threading they Want To ... for the Day ... after they Wake ... Up ... and then They can Sustain ... the Threads ... with No Penalty ... granted, you Don't ... Generally ... want to Thread up to the Maximum ... but with Swap, you ... Can thread Yourself +2 or +3 to ... EVERYTHING ... every Day ... all the Time ... more than That ... Is ... Debatable on Some ... Programs ... But not Really needed for Swap ... to Be too Good.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 15 2010, 02:16 AM

Irritating Post at best...


Anyways, The possible +6 dice does not a massive advantage make, so the +2 to +3 you are talking about is completely irrelevant... oh wait, I already said that...

Swap is just fine as it is in my opinion (And No, My Technomancer does not HAVE Swap, nor does she intend to actually get it, so not arguing this because I have some ulterior motive or anything)...

Good Day...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 05:43 AM

Yes, +6 to everything is the definition of a massive advantage.

Once again, you said that *you* hadn't seen the imbalance abused; that doesn't mean there's no imbalance or potential for abuse.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 15 2010, 07:33 AM

Isn't Psyche just a drug version of one rank of Swap? Why isn't anyone complaining about that pesky drug that gives temporary access to a technomancer Echo, but for Mages?

EDIT: AND it gives stat bonuses? And it only costs money, not Karma? I'd like to file a formal complaint.

Posted by: Lansdren Sep 15 2010, 09:56 AM

I'm still not sold on swap being used to get rid of all sustaining modifiers.

Threaded complex forms must be sustained (similar to how magicians sustain spells).
Sustaining requires effort on the technomancer’s part, so he suffers a –2 dice pool modifier to
all tests for each sustained complex form.

To me this reads as -2 for each threaded CF, meaning if you have two threaded forms you have a threading modifier of -4.

Swap at level two in my mind gives you effectivly the first threaded form with no modifier but if you add in a second or third your still taking reductions (just at a lower level)

Posted by: UmaroVI Sep 15 2010, 10:51 AM

Perhaps not .... Taking ... the Best Submersion is Part of Holding Back. .... After all, she Has Probably spent Karma ... improving Complex forms ... but She Would be Better ... Taking Swap and then Just Getting a Bonus to Everything ... but that would Make your Hacker ... look Like a Noob.

Sorry if my ... posts Are Annoying You ... what exactly Is the Problem? Or is it Just ... that We Disagree?

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 15 2010, 11:05 AM

I would guess he is irritated more by the form of your posts than by their content. Those "..." you sprinkle at the most unexpected places makes them needlessly uncomfortable to read.

Posted by: Method Sep 15 2010, 12:33 PM

Uncomfortable to read and suspiciously troll-like. Please stop formatting your posts oddly just to annoy people. It is poor etiquette and non-productive to the discussion. Thanks.

Posted by: UmaroVI Sep 15 2010, 01:57 PM

Sorry, it was mean of me to make fun of Tymeaus's posting like that, I'll stop.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 03:46 PM

Neraph, we know that drugs are insane. Luckily, the mage'll be addicted, burn out, and die. The main issue with Swap is, if you interpret it as reducing the -2/thread to -0/thread, it gives infinite sustaining. Psyche doesn't do that.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 16 2010, 12:58 AM

Of Course... AS I said earlier; Depending upon your point of view, 6 Dice is either irrelevant or a Big Deal... It amuses me a bit that when discussing the deviance of Skills from 0-7, that 6 Dice is just way to insignificant to actaully make a difference, but when it is a Program Difference Between 6 and 12, it becomes absolutely game breaking... When, in all honesty, it is no different than the range between a a Program Rated 1 and a Program Rated 7. Or to be more Blunt; You cannot have it both ways... it is either insignificant, or it means something.

In My book, I like the differences between the various ratings by Fluff. Yes, 6 Dice is Thematically very important. Unfortunately, Mechanically it is only a difference of 2 Average successes. While I still believe in the superiority of the Fluff here, many (if not most) Dumpshockers do not agree. As such, the Majority of Dumpshockers should have absolutely no problem with the differences here.

I know that you are not often counted among the Majority there Yerameyahu, and I am often glad to be right there with you. But I am having a really difficult time believing in the brokenness of Swap ( at 2 Levels, and No Sustaining Penalties) when the game balances the ability in other ways. I just cannot believe that there is a Character (Note the difference here, I did not say a Player) out there that is going to continuously thread until all of his CF's are at their maximum. 6 Physical per CF is not something to play with, and doing it 10-15 times in successsion will likely leave the character either in the hospital or dead. The fact that a Player will argue for it is nothing more than Metagaming of the highest order, at least in my opinion...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 02:18 AM

I've never said that the difference between Skill 1 and Skill 7 is insignificant, so don't accuse *me* of incoherence. I think it's a big deal in both cases; more for Skill, because it has some limiting effects in the mechanics.

I agree that it's not a 100% free and safe option, but just having the option to get 12 (or more) in anything is a huge deal in flexibility and power. It doesn't need to be all programs, all the time, because this Technomancer has the potential all the time.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 16 2010, 03:27 AM

You are right, It may not have been you specifically (SHould have used the Generic "YOU") ... and that is why I said you were in the Minority during that particlar conversation. Yes, 6 Dice is a big deal... but a great many have issues with that statement, because the mechanics do not reflect that difference like they think that it should...

Options are nice... But I do not believe that Swap is Broken just because it gives you that option. It really comes down to how you read the Crunch.

If you read it as applying a -1 (-2) to each CF threaded, then it removes Sustained Threading Penalties for the Technomancer who obtains both Levels of Swap... On the other Hand, if you read it as a -1 or -2 to the cumulative penalty for Thread Sustainment then you run into a precedence issue. IF you use that, then you must re-examine Heightened Concentration and Spell Sustaining... If it is a Single Penalty to sustain a Mystic Adepts Spells, then The Heightened Concentration can negate a huge chunk of penalty for minimal cost... if you count each sustainin penalty as a singel occurrence, well, then Swap negates Threading penalties... Or you can, you know, just use them as they read...

Personally, I think that Swap Negates Threading Penalties and Heightened Concentration negates a Huge cunk of Spell Sustaining Penalties, because that is how each power reads. But again, there is no real consensus on either of them, so where do you go?

Anyways

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 03:45 AM

I agree that the comparison to the whole spell-sustaining debate is interesting; it's all a bit of a mess. I have no real position on what the rules *should* be, because these issues haven't come up in a game I GMed; when they do, I'll make a call.

Here, I'm only discussing the fact that I certainly see an imbalance that could be abused, and I don't think it should be lightly brushed aside.

Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 16 2010, 07:38 AM

Addiction and altered behavior aside, it only provides -1. A mage on Psyche can't just sustain all his spells without suffering modifiers. If he sustained Armor, Increase Body, Increase Reaction, Increase Reflexes, Increase Willpower, Increase Drain stat, he'd still be at -6 to all his dice pools - and offensively, he'd be no better at casting spells.

Posted by: Lansdren Sep 16 2010, 07:43 AM

I'm still not getting where people are taking that swap will get rid of all the modifers over any number of threaded forms when the modifier is one that grows as it is used. The modifier doesnt cap at two so swap cant remove it all.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 16 2010, 07:49 AM

I just fail to see the problem of TM getting few extra dices over the hacker, atleast the hacker isn't required to shoot himself on the kneecap before starting the hack.
Also the hacker can get an almost equivalent amount of dice from ware, that the TM can't get unless he's willing to sacrifice some of his resonance.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 16 2010, 08:02 AM

This is how I've interpreted it for my TMs. It maybe makes swap a bit underpowered (I still like it), but I figure the other way of reading it is basically a +4 to all matrix actions, which easily overshadows any other way to spend that same 20ish karma. I think this is the bigger issue than anything else. It isn't necessarily that 4 (or 6) dice is game breaking, it is that, from a character ability perspective, there is basically no reason to not get it. It is a choice that is so good, that it isn't really a choice. It's like having a choice between "Would you rather gain a million dollars, or be put a million dollars in debt?". Sure, there is technically a choice, but really there isn't.

@TJ I think the reason you'll see the difference between 6 dice based on skill and 6 dice based on this (Presuming 6 dice, which is a bit high) is because 6 dice on skill means that the world's most highly trained (but not naturally talented (low stats)) person is just barely better than someone who is gifted (high stats) but has no idea what they're doing. It's less about the 6 dice, and more about the description of skill not necessarily matching actual ability. Of course, it is perhaps silly to think that someone would have a 6 skill, and not have a good stat to go with it. P.S. This is just why I think you'll see the discrepancy. Personally I have no problem with the 6 skill cap.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 16 2010, 08:05 AM

Basically they are adding the words 'per CF sustained' Well, not quite, but that is the easiest way to explain it.

Posted by: Lansdren Sep 16 2010, 08:43 AM

The mind boggles sometimes at the strange ways people read things, hell I do it myself at times but I'm pretty sure swap getting rid of all threading modifiers doesnt pass the sanity check. If we were suddenly talking about a pair of metamagics which allowed mages to sustain multiple spells with no negatives (drain for the most part is not a terrible negative if you plan) people would be up in arms saying it cant be right as it would be game breaking.

This is no different a TM can do some very cool things inside a node but the ability to thread up all their CF to high levels and not have any negatives just doesnt track.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 16 2010, 08:50 AM

Well if its all a single modifier that goes up per "item" sustained, then a mystic-adept using psyche can sustain 6 or more spells with zero penalty.

Posted by: Lansdren Sep 16 2010, 08:56 AM

Not from my reading,


Psyche
Duration: (12 – Body) hours, minimum of 1 hour
Effect: +1 Intuition, +1 Logic
This designer drug, allegedly produced by MCT, is especially prized by magicians and technomancers,
as the drug stimulates their brain into hyperactivity. In addition to the effects noted above, Awakened
users also only suffer a –1 dice pool modifier for each sustained spell (rather than the standard –2).
Psyche users are simultaneously hyper-aware and detached, easily absorbed by detail and obsessive
about certain facts or problems.

Six spells sustained while under the drug would have a modifer of -6 (IE -1 per sustained spell as written above)

But this bonus has negatives, it only lasts for a short while, addiction can be a bitch if the gm plays it that way.

The reading some people are giving swap is a massive boost to a character with cost limited to 29 karma which while not a small amount is not much in comparison to some peoples idea of what they get for it.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 16 2010, 09:02 AM

Thats why a said mystic-adept and not a mage, for 1 power point you get Heightened Concentration which lets you ingnore a single penalty up to your magic, in this case the -6 from sustaining 6 spells.

Posted by: Lansdren Sep 16 2010, 09:28 AM

Right didnt realise because you hadnt put the Heightened Concentration bit in your post. I cant say I have explored Mystic Adepts very much and am abit rusty on their specifics.

In that instance I am unsure myself but I would say its possible. Take into consideration to do that you would have had to A) get magic to six, B, use a whole power point to get the skill (if you were allowed it as I dont think everyone uses the DG book) C) cast all the spells and take the drain for them.

But my only real issue with that ability is that how long it lasts is not defined


Heightened Concentration
Cost: 1
The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her
task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single
situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic
attribute. This power requires a Complex Action to activate and
maybe be combined with the Adept Centering metamagic.

Bolded by me for ease of visual,

How long is a task at hand? is it simply firing a shot? driving a car for a mile? Running down a street?

How do we define it? if you define it as for as long as they like then its abit powerful but if it only lasts for a short time when your concentrating on somethign specific then it makes sense because you have to sacrifice a complex action each time you wish to use it which in combat can be a killer.

I'm still leaning to the side that modifers that grow like sustaining are one modifer with a variable value rather then segmented modifers.

Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 16 2010, 09:41 AM

I for one would only allow Heightened Concentration to remove the modifier from one spell - one spell, one modifier. The power doesn't say "all modifiers of a certain type" after all.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 16 2010, 09:43 AM

Landsren was arguing that they are a single modifier and as such the swap would only let TM to sustain the on thread with ot penalty.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 01:17 PM

Oh boy. Let's not rehash the HC debate again here.

Max, as I told Tymeaus, I *don't* fail to see the problem of +6 to any (and multiple) programs over the hacker. That's not "a few dices", and it's not something the hacker can do, and we know full well that if a Magic/Resonance character can do something by using a little 'ware, they can make that 'sacrifice'. I feel like something being categorically better is usually imbalance. So we disagree. *shrug*

Posted by: sabs Sep 16 2010, 01:22 PM

I would be so much happier with Shadowrun if Cyberware/Bioware was not a little sacrifice, but instead was actually a big huge one, for "Magical" characters.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 01:25 PM

Agreed, which is why Max's reason (while not incorrect) doesn't work. But fixing that's a house rule issue: double penalties (automatic Sensitive System, etc.)?

By the way, I'm not ignoring the fact that Fading is a counterbalance. However, we know perfectly well that players can and will very creatively minimize that problem, as they do with mages. There's imbalanced, and then there's 'beyond broken'; this Swap situation is merely the former.