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Posted by: Krojar Sep 12 2010, 04:24 PM

We all know that Corporations have extraterritoriality, making their property a cross between a diplomatic embassy and an enclave. The question is, can a host state "kick out" a corporate citizen? In current diplomacy this is done against diplomats who commit some crime or are suspected of espionage but have managed to escape into their home embassy. Say a Mitsuhama wetwork team is identified after they get their target by UCAS FBI agents but manage to escape into their corporate HQ. The FBI asks Mitsuhama for an extradition (let's say the target was prominent enough to warrant it) and Mitsuhama tells them to fuck off and die since the team is 1) Mitsuhama citizens and 2) residing in an extraterritorial area. Can the UCAS declare the team "Persona Non Grata" and order the team to leave UCAS soil?

Posted by: CanRay Sep 12 2010, 04:32 PM

Don't see why not. Corporations as Countries just means they have to work under the same laws as Countries. The Corporate Court can work to change those laws, of course.

Of course, politics plays a big role as well. Sure, S-K can say, "Slot off.", but then there will be issues with S-K when negotiating with the UCAS Government for various things (For example, when S-K wants someone that escaped onto UCAS Soil.).

Anyhow, if the FBI caught said MCT team, then they failed the first law of black ops: "Thou Shalt Not Get Caught".

Posted by: kzt Sep 12 2010, 04:54 PM

The enforcement of this is that you blockade the embassy until they do what you want. No traffic across your territory to their embassy, plus the possibility of turning off the power and water.

There is the informal version of this, where "road construction" and "utility repairs" digs a series 20 foot deep trenches across roads, and due to some terrible confusion, blocks all the access roads.

When the "errors" are discovered a stop work order is issued and court summons are issued to the highway officials and the contractors so that this can be properly sorted out. In a few months...

Posted by: Method Sep 12 2010, 05:01 PM

Ah, bureaucracy at work. Ain't it beautiful?!

Posted by: CanRay Sep 12 2010, 06:45 PM

Red Tape, the best weapon a Government has.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 12 2010, 06:51 PM

I'm not sure you see it right. IIRC, it goes like this:

* Embassy soil is leased or given by the host country to whoever the embassy is for. As long as the lease lasts, that soil belongs to the embassy's patron.

* Senior embassy staff receive diplomatic immunity; they cannot be prosecuted in the host country, although they are expected to respect the host country's laws. They just can't be prosecuted.

* When a person is declared Persona Non Grata, they're not allowed into the host country. This doesn't mean they're not allowed in the embassy. However, they can't just leave the embassy back into the host country.

In practice, if a diplomat is declared PNG, they're usually recalled, because they're not very effective if they can't move about. But this in no way stops embassies from being a good place to seek (political) asylum for people wanted in the host country. They may have to remain shut up in the embassy for a long time however.

Posted by: Krojar Sep 12 2010, 07:21 PM

Ah, I thought the offending person(s) had to leave by order of the host country not the home country though it would seem that, technically, the home country is the one that sends the person packing.

So in the case of the Mitsuhama wetwork team (assuming that MCT doesn't just decide to off them) they could keep them on Corp territory indefinitely or smuggle them out and the UCAS gov't can't do anything official except maybe lodge a complaint with the Corporate Court?

Posted by: CanRay Sep 12 2010, 07:31 PM

And blare the evidence on the news. If they're willing to deal with the political/business fallout involved in that. But, legally, nope, nothing.

Welcome to the wonderful world of international espionage.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 12 2010, 08:01 PM

If a country declares someone Persona Non Grata and orders the person's expulsion, that person has to leave that country's soil.

The thing is, an embassy (or corporate enclave) is NOT that country's soil, even if it resides in that country.

In the example, the MCT team has ALREADY left UCAS soil. The enclave grounds are are considered Mitsuhama territory. Not UCAS.

That's the whole point of extraterritorial rights. A country or corporation's enclave or embassy is considered part of the that country or corporation, not part of the country it's sitting in.


-karma

Posted by: CanRay Sep 12 2010, 08:04 PM

The one exception that happens to Corporations (And possibly other countries, I'm not sure) is Eminent Domain.

That's how the UCAS was able to drive in and take over the Renraku Archology in Seattle. The nuclear reactors (Four of them) in the basement of it, no longer under control of a "Friendly Government" posed a risk to UCAS Soil.

Which is why I figure that Embassies tend to not have nuclear weapons placed in their basements. (At least, I'm hoping they don't!).

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 12 2010, 10:21 PM

Do you have a source for that? I was under the impression that Renraku basically unloaded the arcology on the UCAS because they didn't want it anymore. Using eminent domain against extraterritorial soil seems rather like an act of war...

Posted by: CanRay Sep 12 2010, 10:29 PM

Don't remember the book, but it's the scene where the General walks into the United Corporate Council in Seattle and goes, "We're taking over.".

Posted by: Jaid Sep 12 2010, 10:56 PM

actually, i'm pretty sure it went something along the lines of the UCAS telling renraku they could foot the bill for retaking the arcology (note: government sponsored militaries have never been particularly cheap to run that i know of, and probably still won't be in 2070), or give up the arcology. i don't think they technically forced renraku to give them the arcology though... they just made it extremely unappealing to not give it to the UCAS.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 12 2010, 11:49 PM

"OK, we've freed the Arcology, there you go." "Thank you very much." "And, our bill." "WHAT?" "Well, you've given us so many bills for your service, it's about time we've been able to repay the favour..."

Posted by: kzt Sep 13 2010, 12:59 AM

You can't use that on an embassy. It's another country!

However, it's another country. So you always have recourse to the "Last Argument of Kings", and just drive through the front gate with a mech company.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2010, 01:10 AM

I thought they declared eminent domain. Looks like I'll have to look that up again.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2010, 01:14 AM

Here we go, Renraku Shutdown, Page 26. A General shows up and goes, "I'm from the Government, I'm here to help, BECAUSE YOU HAVE FRAGGIN' NUKES IN THE BASEMENT!" (Essentially).

I read (Or misremembered) that as a declaration of "Eminent Domain", and am obviously mistaken.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 13 2010, 09:39 AM

Ah, that makes more sense then.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 13 2010, 12:50 PM

Nope, diplomatic missions are actually still standing on the soil of the host nation. The area and certain persons are merely exempted from that nation's law by the Vienna Conventions, which in turn imposes some obligations on the guests - for example to remove any person in a certain timeframe or even close the whole thing down if the host nation insists.
Think of it like renting a flat, just because the landlord lets you live there for free and ignore the house rules the place doesn't belong to you

Shadowrun extrateritoriality, however, seems to turn corporate belongings into true enclaves. Renraku is a souvereign international entity, and if the UCAS doesn't like the nose of one of some guy living on Renraku territory they can ask nicely to relocate him, but if 'Raku refuses they can't do shit about it...except for the ultima ration regum, of course.

Posted by: Master of Malfeasance Sep 14 2010, 07:39 AM

There are ways the problem could be physically addressed, but international relations don't really work like that. It is entirely a question of how badly the city/county/state/feds want those suspects. If they want them badly enough, they will cajole and curry favors until they get them out or get them gone.

Also, since they committed a crime on UCAS soil (and basically got caught), they're still criminals. Diplomatic immunity most certainly does NOT extend to every person living in a corporate enclave. Likewise, the UCAS can label the wetworks team terrorists, enemies of the state, etc and throw MCT into the spotlight as being a corporation that supports international terrorism which I'm pretty sure will still be a crime in 60 years. Ultimately, it is in MCTs best interest to either give them up, stage an extraction, or cut them loose.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 14 2010, 11:10 AM

Dissidents/Freedomf Fighters/Terrorists have used embassies to gain asylum for ages.. the Cold War was full of people in East Bloc countries hiding out in the American embassy, sometimes for years at a time.

Trying to involuntarily extract someone from an embassy takes a lot of cojones. The host nation is a natural suspect, and the Corporate Court wouldn't just let such a key violation of the Business Accords slide.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 14 2010, 12:13 PM

You guys know that "OMG, what did I write there" feeling?

Posted by: Angelone Sep 14 2010, 04:23 PM

I just thought you were trying to cast the Ultima spell

I think the way it would go down is kinda like this.

UCAS: We want these guys, they kicked the presidents poodle.
MCT: No speaka the americano.
UCAS: Screw em send in the runners.
MCT: Why is our facility tipped over and on fire?
UCAS: No idea, good luck with that. *snicker*

I think the whole diplomacy thing will be a distraction if the people in question are wanted badly enough.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 14 2010, 05:13 PM

Folks are getting a couple concepts mixed up, not that it matters in context of a game but this is the sort of thing I dig on about the setting so it's what I think on.

First off there's diplomatic immunity, sovereign territory, and extradition. Personally I cannot see corporations operating in a sovereign nations territory without some sort of extradition agreement on paper. That's not to say extradition requests might not get lost from time to time but for the day to day requests and for certainly high profile screw ups like the theoretical hit team it is just not worth it to antagonize national governments. Even outside of the "large argument of kings" there are a myriad number of ways a national government could screw with a megacorp in their territory that would have a disproportionate affect on the bottom line.

Anything beyond that and you get into the questions of active or passive dystopia that seuoq mentions elsewhere. But by and large in most cases if a national government asks for someone the extraterritorial corp is going to hand them over. But the opposite is also true.

A corporation or nation actually granting someone asylum is a whole different matter. But that person is effectively going to be a prisoner in the enclave/consulate until they can be smuggled out or their safe passage negotiated.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 14 2010, 05:44 PM

Corporate Court: We find the UCAS guilty; they'll hand over this year's taxes to MCT in damages.

Keep in mind that particularly the AAA corps are just as powerful as, if not more powerful than, national governments.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 14 2010, 06:00 PM

Depends on the national government in question, remember one of the reasons that Azt is so much of a heavy hitter is they are more or less the government of Aztlan, and one of the few things that united the Corporate Court on a large scale was a AAA using the national government to run roughshod over the other corps.

Further the CC is not one big happy family, there would be more then a few corps, Ares, Renraku, and Shiawase especially, who would back the UCAS government over MCT. The enemy of my enemy etc etc.

While on the whole AAA's approach nations in power and certainly exceed some small to midsize countries that power is by default spread out and diversified, where as a government just needs to bring that power to bear locally and at least in the near term isn't bothered by the profit margin.

Basically with a few exceptions I don't see corporations coming close to nations in standing military forces, or not exceeding them by a margin that doesn't make war very bad for the bottom line, which the corporations hate with a passion.

Posted by: Angelone Sep 14 2010, 06:07 PM

Find them guilty on what grounds?

MCT: You blew up our facility.
UCAS: What are you talking about? Tell you what we're gonna help you look for these terrorists. We can't allow nutjobs to run around blowing stuff up.

A few weeks later...

MCT: You find anything?
UCAS: Nope, still working on it though.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 14 2010, 07:24 PM

Or, even better:

UCAS: "Yep, we found out it was an attempt to make us look bad in your eyes by the Tir. Here's evidence. Now, about those ships you were thinking of sending to the Portland Docks..."

Posted by: kzt Sep 15 2010, 04:30 AM

UCAS "Μολὼν λαβέ"

Posted by: Sengir Sep 15 2010, 07:43 AM

http://www.mezmeron.com/images/drooling_homer.gif

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 16 2010, 01:42 AM

thinking on this I think the answer is no. extrateritorial soil IS the corp, it's not like the embassy is an extension of the country, a corp facility is the corp. That having been said the corper who po's a government to that point is stuck on corporate soil. having been declared persona non grata if they reenter the country-" I was just getting some smokes from the store." is dead meat. Does the corp realy want to risk all their people being harrassed by police everytime they leave corp soil? "Is that her?" 'nope' "How about her?" "nope" etdc.