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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Combat Drugs
Posted by: InfidelZombie Sep 13 2010, 09:15 AM
First off a big hello to you all out there, this is my first post to these fine forums and I hope it might actually contribute something, or at least sow the seeds of an idea amongst other players. At the least I might get a good discussion out of it. Now, onto the meat of the post!
I've been ghosting these forums for a while, and I'll be the first to admit that I've spent more than my fair share of time looking at peoples characters ideas and first time Game Masters issues. And through all of these threads, where Initiative Passes have been touted (And not incorrectly) as the one way to make the most out of your character, I have ever only ever seen people arguing for Wired Reflexes, or their bioware/adept counterpart. However not once have I seen a mention of the application of Combat drugs, and while the effects are temporary, they can also provide a much needed boost against tougher opponents than these less mundane options might.
Now I'm not going to pretend I'm not bias, because I most certainly am. As a player, I have a tendency to romanticize the less cybered or magical characters. I mean the only cyberware my character packs is Muscle Replacement (2), and I can mix it up with the best of any street sam or adept I've come across, and with my combat ax I usually come out on top and dealing damage that makes others either weep or drool. (Providing I don't shank any rolls Haha) And here's why. I use drugs! But what about the crash you say? The horrible stun damage that leaves me passed out in between a rock and a hard place. Well granted, that can be a problem, but is 6stun really all that much? Besides take Jazz for example, it's crash is only 10 minutes game time of -2 to tests. Not a bad price to pay for 10-60 minutes of +1 initiative, and +1 initiative passes. Then you have my personal ace in the hole. Kamikaze. Let's face it, almost everyone going's to get into a position every now and then when you need an equalizer, and just one initiative pass isn't enough. Can you afford to turn down it's +1 Body, agility, Willpower, Initiative Pass, +2 strength and High Pain Tolerance three when you're just about to go toe to toe with a Red Samurai or two and they don't plan to let you stand there and shoot them?
Get screwed over by a Johnson and you're in a situation that you don't expect to come out alive? Well if you want any chance to get out, or you at least want to take as many of those fraggers out with you as you can, try a little K10. Sure the crash is crazy and will probably kill you if the combat doesn't but there are ways to offset that too. Try cocktailing it with a little Immortal Flower. Nothing puts the laughter back into slaughter like +3 Body, +3 Agility, +6 Strength, +1 Willpower,+3 Initiative Pass, High Pain Tolerance 3, and Berserk topped off with a little Regeneration.
Now don't get me wrong, this isn't for everyone, but it just feels to me like no one really gives combat drugs serious consideration as an alternative to a heavily wared or wizzed char. Not everyone can can get the ware or spell/power. Any one can take a hit.
Posted by: Makki Sep 13 2010, 09:35 AM
GMs tend to ask for addiction tests very fast, even more, when you speedball. depends ofc how many runs you do
my Edge7-Face likes to be where the action is, but was far two slow to participate, so he took some Jazz once in a while. Now he could afford a synaptic booster and he's very happy.
i like cram/jazz for some gangers to make them an unexpected threat
Posted by: InfidelZombie Sep 13 2010, 09:48 AM
That's true, but depending on whether or not your GM considers it a physical or mental addiction test can make a big difference. With a body of 7 (Ork) I'm not all that worried about physical addiction, and even then it also really depends upon the level of addiction he sets you at. Mild and Moderate aren't exactly going to make or break a character. And I don't see anyone assigning you a Serious addiction without prior warning or abuse of a very addictive substance.
Posted by: MK Ultra Sep 13 2010, 09:56 AM
Of course, this is not an everyday solution or a real replacement for ware, but it can help sometimes. I try to get some chemical backup for most of my characters -Cram &/or Jazz mostly, sometimes K- (even the ones that are already boosted a bit), but I try not to use it if possible (unless the character is an adict to begin with, of course). It´s good when you are really in a bad situation.
Most of the time, I GM, however. Most of my players are very reluctant, because they fear addiction - I think I tend to be very soft with that, but players seem to perceive or fear otherwise. Very few use the stuff at all, fewer still on a regular basis, almost noone wants to build adicts.
For NPCs, I often use it for gangers and low-life thugs (maybe 20-30% of the time), which for some reason still tends to surprise my players. I also use it for low-level security ppl occasionaly (they have a low probability of ever having to take it, but it may save their life when they are the unlucky ones to face some runners).
But, you know: Drugs are bad, mmmmkay!
Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 13 2010, 09:57 AM
There are three turn-offs to drugs, I think;
- Addiction; it causes Notoriety, it's annoying and it seems to happen way too fast for drugs to be attractive.
- Reliability; implants are more reliable than drugs. You don't have to worry about being attacked while crashing, or running out.
- Non-stacking; you can usually afford implants, and they don't stack with the drugs, so why take the drugs? Particularly in the case of the all-important IP boost.
Posted by: Summerstorm Sep 13 2010, 09:57 AM
HOLY... i just read the part of "K-10 AND Immortal Flower"... Hm.. of course not really viable for most characters... but if you really go the no cyberware route it is really good. Just make sure you have qualities for more overflow boxes and good will/body in general and you are good to go. Oh and also money... since both drugs really are not cheap. But yeah... it makes a normal troll down on his luck to a "Drop and forget" murdering tool.
Well, like i wrote in some other thread here, i am against fixed, unavoidable damage out of principle. K-10 should have a damage code like everything else too.
Well, back on topic: I have nothing against drugs and use them extensively as a GM for my NPC's. Streetfighters trying to cheat in the next round, beat cops finding themselves in a shootout. Corporate security ordered to "hold out till the HTR arrives", an "average" mage trying to get his mind sharp for that big spirit summoning etc. all use drugs.
HM, only my players don't seem to use them. (I even had one of them gain a drug-dealer contact... but he only uses him for party drugs)
Posted by: Notsoevildm Sep 13 2010, 10:03 AM
Just remember that when you get hooked on those combat drugs, your supplier is the GM and he can cut off your supply whenever he likes.
Posted by: InfidelZombie Sep 13 2010, 10:03 AM
Oh no, don't get me wrong I understand completely. It just seems that they're under appreciated by most players. I myself play a ganger and rely almost exclusively on Combat drugs both as a role playing device and because I just don't want to take the wired reflexes ware or it's equivalent. But that doesn't mean I have to abuse them. If you're using them everyday I can see why some players would be afraid of addiction, but really I only come across a need for them every few game days.
Posted by: Combat Mage Sep 13 2010, 10:06 AM
I like reliability. I like to know my character is always ready to kick some ass even after waking up naked in a strange room with no memories. That's why I love magic and cyberware, reflexes and stat boosts that are always there, implanted monowhips and cyber-weapons and spells and all those other things that you have always at the ready.
Besides I'm normally already getting close to the augmented maximums on stats like agility and reaction (and strength with non-monowhip/electricity weapons chars) with my characters so most drugs wouldn't help that much (Or do they let you exceed augmented maximums?). But a dose of Kamikaze or even K-10 for absolute balls-to-the-wall situations is still something I could grow to like. I will have to try it.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 13 2010, 11:11 AM
That's pretty nasty addiction territory you're walking across there. Somebody who uses PCP every few days is going to end up a paranoid wreck within months, that kind of insanity is a good reason to go for the relatively safe implants.
Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 13 2010, 11:22 AM
For cops and guards, it is brilliant. They rarely get into firefights.
SWAT teams, infantry, runners - they see way too much action for combat drugs to be viable.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 13 2010, 01:22 PM
How do you check to see if an existing addiction gets WORSE?
I'm not that familiar with the rules regarding addiction, and while I see rules for GETTING addicted I can't seem to find ones for getting worse.
-karma
Posted by: Sengir Sep 13 2010, 01:26 PM
Combat drugs are a great last resort, especially for essence-concious characters since a breakable tooth costs 0 essence, but that also means they only come into play when everything else fails.
Posted by: Nifft Sep 13 2010, 01:53 PM
"Pssssst! Hey kid, you want some free Karma?"
Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2010, 01:54 PM
And suddenly I'm reminded of Sleazy, the Free Spirit of Man, who would go around, buying Karma from people for money. Working out of the back of his windowless panel van.
Posted by: sabs Sep 13 2010, 02:07 PM
remember Drug Use = Essence loss.. eventually.
Posted by: StealthSigma Sep 13 2010, 02:10 PM
Pretty much.
Most of these people would not use drugs for a couple reasons.
1. It's a temporary effect.
2. It's a liability.
3. Legality issues.
Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2010, 02:11 PM
"Hey, everything is Disposable! Especially YOU! Take your 'vitamins' and like it!"
Posted by: sabs Sep 13 2010, 02:23 PM
Exactly.
Btw, I disagree. I think that Military Units would totally have combat drugs for their front lines, deployed units.
Posted by: Sengir Sep 13 2010, 02:34 PM
That's why attempting to use your support character as a drug-fueled combat monkey is a bad idea
But even if there were any pockets in a burial shroud, you couldn't put your Essence in them, so as a big red "Emergency" button the tooth with Kamikaze is great.
Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2010, 02:40 PM
"Hey, why does my K-12 smell like Almonds?" *Thud*
Yet another reason to always tip your Street Doc!
Posted by: StealthSigma Sep 13 2010, 02:44 PM
Btw, I disagree. I think that Military Units would totally have combat drugs for their front lines, deployed units.
If they have it, it's going to be used sparingly as more of a last resort, due to the liability that the drugs incur as well as the fluff describing the symptoms of them.
Individual soldiers may be viewed as disposable in the future but you can't afford to have full squads and platoons become disabled due to the crashes from the drugs. You either double up on coverage to negate those weaknesses in the front lines that would allow enemies to slip through or you don't bust out the drugs frequently.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 13 2010, 02:47 PM
It depends on the military. A high-tech, professional US-style military would not; drugs are too expensive in terms of troop loss. If it's some poor African nation of conscripted child-soldiers, then the balance shifts, see? Personally, I wouldn't even call the latter 'military', so I disagree with sabs: military would not use drugs as presented in SR4, because they're too damaging, too fast.
Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2010, 02:54 PM
Aztlan would probably use a lot of drugs for their soldiers.
But I'm basing that off the theory that they're controlled by what was started as a Money Laundering company for the Narco-Gangs of Mexico...
Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 13 2010, 03:01 PM
Most of these people would not use drugs for a couple reasons.
1. It's a temporary effect.
2. It's a liability.
3. Legality issues.
And addiction
Posted by: Androcomputus Sep 13 2010, 03:20 PM
The description for Jazz says it all...
better the odds for run-of-the-mill law-enforcement officers who run
up against augmented street samurai...
It is printed in the book to give mooks a chance in a fight with the PCs.
Posted by: sabs Sep 13 2010, 03:22 PM
And really, how often is a Mook going to run into a Shadowrunner in his life?
The Joke answer would be: Once.
But lets assume most shadowrunners don't shoot to kill, but use non-lethal options.
Your average street cop probably will run into a shadowrunner once, maybe twice a year.. tops. Possibly only a couple of times in his whole career.
Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 13 2010, 03:38 PM
I would think the the increased balkinization and general dystopia, that the "Somali warlord with a militia" is more common that what we think of as a traditional army. AK's and K-10 for everyone!
Posted by: StealthSigma Sep 13 2010, 03:55 PM
Your average street cop would most likely run into a shadowrunner once and then promptly die unless he's -really- lucky.
Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 13 2010, 03:57 PM
That's why they issued their beat cops Jazz - so they'd slow down the runners until the real support got there.
Posted by: sabs Sep 13 2010, 03:59 PM
Did you read the /whole/ post?
Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2010, 04:43 PM
Unless a Shadowrunner has him for a contact, that is. It's a good way to augment the crappy pay cops get, as well as get some word from the street.
Posted by: sabs Sep 13 2010, 04:44 PM
One Imagines that if you are a Shadowrunner's contact.. he's probably not shooting at you? More than Once (Edited for CanRay)
Posted by: CanRay Sep 13 2010, 04:50 PM
Unless that's how they met.
"He shot me. But only a little. We've been friends since."
Posted by: jaellot Sep 13 2010, 04:56 PM
I notice the tendency, too. Never have I had a player in my games want to use any of the drugs. My buddy goes on about an old character who had Kamikaze, I think,l in an autoinjector, but he hasn't done it in my campaigns. I think as a result, I tend to forget about them in the books, though I'm trying to bring more of that into the game.
Might also have something to do with an NPC I got called "Chppy". He's a BTL burnout whose brain is very fried, but his wires and smartlink work just fine. Sort of a sign of where drugs can take you. Some of the PC's pity him and try to keep him fed, one of them is looking for an excuse to put him out of everyone's misery...
Reliablity has been mentioned as an issue. I can see that. I can see how players would prefer ware over drugs, mechanics wise. For interesting RP though, drugs could be appealing. Maybe if the ware wasn't so infalliable (damaged from glitches, old/used, home brewed or old SR2 damage charts...) you might could interest PC's more in some pills or what not.
And oh yeah, "laughter back in slaughter..." good one.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 13 2010, 06:23 PM
So, nobody has a page reference for how someone progresses in their addiction? Like going from Mild to Severe?
Or is it just one of those things a GM is supposed to make up on the fly?
-karma
Posted by: Nifft Sep 13 2010, 06:30 PM
Or is it just one of those things a GM is supposed to make up on the fly?
SR4A, p.256, "Addiction Tests". It's the FIRST page of the Drugs & Brainbenders section, not exactly hard to find.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 13 2010, 07:13 PM
Ah, okay, I was reading those tests to be for how you GET an addiction, not as also how you determine if the addiction gets worse.
Also, the Addiction rules work oddly with the Media Junkie addiction.
-karma
Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 13 2010, 07:27 PM
Some day I'll figure out how so many GMs and players see this:
And translate it out to thinking 3 hits in a week of practically anything and you're addicted. I mean, good lord, haven't any of these people taken drugs or painkillers before?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 13 2010, 07:39 PM
Most of the drugs *are* powerfully addictive. The ones you'd want for combat, anyway.
Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 13 2010, 07:44 PM
Hey, they have warning labels. And your dealer is supposed to check your ID to verify that you are of the legal age to take that stuff.
There is no way that the corps can be responsible, just because some of you proles can't handle the juice.
Posted by: Nifft Sep 13 2010, 07:46 PM
Also, the Addiction rules work oddly with the Media Junkie addiction.
Yeah, they pretty much give NO strict guidance on when to actually USE that test, except that the less often you call for it = the more you can expect drug use in your game.
It's not the best supported mechanic in the game.
The way I use addiction is "hey kid, want some build points?"... and then I don't really bother with it. My players don't much care for drugs once they can afford another source of IPs.
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 13 2010, 08:28 PM
I've been ghosting these forums for a while, and I'll be the first to admit that I've spent more than my fair share of time looking at peoples characters ideas and first time Game Masters issues. And through all of these threads, where Initiative Passes have been touted (And not incorrectly) as the one way to make the most out of your character, I have ever only ever seen people arguing for Wired Reflexes, or their bioware/adept counterpart. However not once have I seen a mention of the application of Combat drugs, and while the effects are temporary, they can also provide a much needed boost against tougher opponents than these less mundane options might.
Now I'm not going to pretend I'm not bias, because I most certainly am. As a player, I have a tendency to romanticize the less cybered or magical characters. I mean the only cyberware my character packs is Muscle Replacement (2), and I can mix it up with the best of any street sam or adept I've come across, and with my combat ax I usually come out on top and dealing damage that makes others either weep or drool. (Providing I don't shank any rolls Haha) And here's why. I use drugs! But what about the crash you say? The horrible stun damage that leaves me passed out in between a rock and a hard place. Well granted, that can be a problem, but is 6stun really all that much? Besides take Jazz for example, it's crash is only 10 minutes game time of -2 to tests. Not a bad price to pay for 10-60 minutes of +1 initiative, and +1 initiative passes. Then you have my personal ace in the hole. Kamikaze. Let's face it, almost everyone going's to get into a position every now and then when you need an equalizer, and just one initiative pass isn't enough. Can you afford to turn down it's +1 Body, agility, Willpower, Initiative Pass, +2 strength and High Pain Tolerance three when you're just about to go toe to toe with a Red Samurai or two and they don't plan to let you stand there and shoot them?
Get screwed over by a Johnson and you're in a situation that you don't expect to come out alive? Well if you want any chance to get out, or you at least want to take as many of those fraggers out with you as you can, try a little K10. Sure the crash is crazy and will probably kill you if the combat doesn't but there are ways to offset that too. Try cocktailing it with a little Immortal Flower. Nothing puts the laughter back into slaughter like +3 Body, +3 Agility, +6 Strength, +1 Willpower,+3 Initiative Pass, High Pain Tolerance 3, and Berserk topped off with a little Regeneration.
Now don't get me wrong, this isn't for everyone, but it just feels to me like no one really gives combat drugs serious consideration as an alternative to a heavily wared or wizzed char. Not everyone can can get the ware or spell/power. Any one can take a hit.
My current PC makes tremendous use of Combat Drugs in a professional capacity while attempting to stave off addiction and eventual burnout. A combat drug is an excellent equalizer if you are an Adept and you happen to be losing several points of your Magic (and therefore power points) to Background Count. This is what kept my PC alive whenever I was not operating at full magic score. Taking Kamikaze while on Cram is also what gave me the equalizer to fight ridiculously overpowered dudes by upping my IP from my usual 2 to 4. Essentially, that is how combat drugs function best: as an equalizer.
As a GM, I "gave" my fairly underpowered PCs each a dose of Kamikaze for a plot climactic run to assassinate two Renraku VIPs protected by an essentially platoon-strength group of Red Samurai. As it stands they didn't survive, not really, but they did complete their objective. If not for the Kamikaze, they wouldn't have gotten close to doing either. An equalizer, like I said. Nothing that any PC should be making a habit of. Drugs are just less...professional.
Immortal Flower is very ridiculous but it is best for Awakened characters (Magic + Body) for whom it has incredibly negative long-term consequences. Our mage 0.1 Essence (and therefore 1 Magic!) to it recently. Ouch! Also its price and availability make it a BAD thing to be addicted to.
I have a question about combat drugs, actually. If you take a combat drug and then cast Critter Form on yourself, does your Critter Form benefit from the drugs, or not? Is it spelled out in RAW?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 13 2010, 08:32 PM
Do the +IPs really stack?
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 13 2010, 08:40 PM
Afaik it says nowhere that they wouldn't and it seems balanced.
The unresisted 6S certainly stacks when they both (independently) run out to 12S...guaranteed unconsciousness and quite possible death depending on how messed up you are from the run itself.
Taking the more serious combat drugs is a very risky business.
Posted by: Nifft Sep 13 2010, 08:41 PM
Extra IPs never stack.
Bonuses of any kind never stack (unless they say they do, like with Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes).
Technically, IPs could stack if the source material said they stacked, but it never does (that I've seen).
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 13 2010, 08:47 PM
@Nifft....if you are right then oh boy have I been doing a LOT of things wrong.
Can I have a page reference for where it says categorically in the rules that "bonuses of any kind never stack"?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 13 2010, 08:47 PM
That's what I thought, Nifft. This issue comes up every time people talk about Drugs in SR4. I've seen people say that the drugs stack *with* Wires!
Posted by: Nifft Sep 13 2010, 09:04 PM
Can I have a page reference for where it says categorically in the rules that "bonuses of any kind never stack"?
Nope, because I can't find one. So I'm probably wrong there.
Instead, it looks like each form of IP enhancement (Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Boosters, etc.) has wording which says it doesn't work with any other form of IP enhancement.
Cheers, -- N
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 13 2010, 09:20 PM
But Improved Reflexes (Adept Power) says that it "cannot be combined with technological or other magical increases to Initiative" which certainly doesn't cover combat drugs. Likewise the drugs themselves don't say anywhere that they don't stack with anything.
So as far as I can tell the example I listed "happens" to be totally legal according to RAW.
But "You can't cast Increase Reflexes on someone with Wired Reflexes" is a totally new one on me and one I will have to think about.
Posted by: sabs Sep 13 2010, 09:24 PM
So as far as I can tell the example I listed "happens" to be totally legal according to RAW.
But "You can't cast Increase Reflexes on someone with Wired Reflexes" is a totally new one on me and one I will have to think about.
SR4A Page 342, last sentence in the wired reflexes description
except Reaction Enhancers.
That pretty much rules out Drugs, Spells, or Powers.
But having read The Improved Reflexes, and then looked at the drugs.
It might be legit. It depends wether you cound a Drug as a Technological enhancement. You are using technology, in this case, chemistry, to create the drug.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Sep 13 2010, 09:31 PM
As far as me and my group has been doing, drugs that grant extra IP stack with adept power, spells and augmentations that grant extra IP.
Posted by: Smokeskin Sep 13 2010, 09:34 PM
Hmm, I'd say that combat drugs are technological.
Posted by: Myrgan Sep 13 2010, 09:42 PM
Similar applies to Synaptic Booster (SR4A, pg. 347):
But there is no specific rule that says IPs generally never stack, so the "Increase Reflexes" adept power + drugs is legitimate, as is stacking drugs.
Edit: this was a reply to sabs, I just took to long to post, cuz I was looking things up. I think if Catalyst had meant drugs to be counted as "technological", they would have given Increase Reflexes the same "cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement" as the -ware.
Posted by: Nifft Sep 13 2010, 09:44 PM
So as far as I can tell the example I listed "happens" to be totally legal according to RAW.
But "You can't cast Increase Reflexes on someone with Wired Reflexes" is a totally new one on me and one I will have to think about.
Wired Reflexes prohibits stacking with other sources of initiative enhancement.
However, amusingly enough, it seems that the spell doesn't have that wording. So (by the RAW) you can stack drugs with the spell. IMHO this is not the intent of the rules -- the description for Cram even says "Characters may decide to use cram if they cannot afford cyberware or bioware", which to me indicates it's meant to be obsoleted by 'ware.
IMHO the intent of the rules is that IP bonuses don't stack. For everything else, I guess they count on augmented maximums to keep things vaguely balanced.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 13 2010, 10:04 PM
The descriptions of those various augmentations are annoyingly ambiguous. It looks a lot like they were all intended to work the same, but they used subtly different wordings.
IIRC, the spell didn't grant additional Reaction though, which does make it different from the other enhancement methods (which tend to couple IP and Reaction increases).
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 13 2010, 10:18 PM
IIRC, the spell didn't grant additional Reaction though, which does make it different from the other enhancement methods (which tend to couple IP and Reaction increases).
I may have named the wrong spell, I meant the one that grants extra IPs.
Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 13 2010, 10:34 PM
Stimulants are only a threshold 2 to avoid addiction, and presumably that's the likely category for most combat drugs. Only Novacoke (and presumably Nitro which includes novacoke) are singled out as being highly addictive within in its description. Jazz is historically also fairly bad, but only if you go by previous edition fluff. Cram, Snuff, Kamikaze, NoPaint and Woad shouldn't be hooking people in one go, and frankly I'd argue that even Betameth probably isn't -that- addictive. Methamphetamine is crazy addictive, sure, but it's not quite up there with heroin, although I would term it a threshold 3. And frankly, people should keep in mind that what makes many drugs "powerfully addictive" isn't how quickly you develop a dependency but how tough the dependency is to shake once it has set in.
Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 13 2010, 11:09 PM
Don't want to lose Essence to Immortal Flower?
Bear shapeshifters equipped with K-10 and power foci.
Just saying.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 13 2010, 11:21 PM
Yes, Increase Reflexes. It grants +(1-3) IPs and +(1-3) to Initiative. But most of the other ways of gaining IPs achieve the bonus to Initiative by increasing Reaction. So the spell is quite different.
Posted by: InfidelZombie Sep 14 2010, 01:33 AM
Well all of these are very valid points, but even then they don't completely rule out the viability of combat drugs to me. If a mage wants to be able to cast more than one spell a combat phase he'll either have to use one of those phases to cast the spell to increase his initiative passes, or he can use a free or simple action to apply the drug, either letting him also cast a spell that pass, or at least perform another simple action. I agree that for a wired character they might not be all that useful, but for pretty much any other character I still and probably always will see them as a viable option. Even with their setbacks. And while the stun damage can be nasty, especially for a spellslinger, that's what Jazz is for.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 02:13 AM
The fluff for Jazz has always been that it's horrific, though. 
Posted by: InfidelZombie Sep 14 2010, 02:19 AM
True as that may be, they really dumbed it down for 4th ed, making it viable for any character to use.
Posted by: Tyro Sep 14 2010, 02:40 AM
I generally allow any stat boosts to stack EXCEPT for IP enhancements, which never stack.
Most of my characters have a Mild (or in one case Moderate) addiction to SOMETHING. If they don't start with IP-boosting 'Ware, it's usually Cram; if not, it's generally Betameth, Psyche, or the like, depending on their role. Occasionally I'll give someone two addictions, but not often. I make sure to have decent (3 minimum, usually 4+) willpower and body on anyone with an addiction.
Also, you can always pay someone to magically detox you or alleviate your cravings if you bomb too many rolls.
Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 14 2010, 05:20 AM
Yeah, roleplaying Jazz as a terrible drug requires you to rely upon information which simply isn't presented in the current edition. At my table "Jazz has always been terrible" turned into "Until recently Jazz was terrible" and eventually evolved into "Wait, Jazz sounds like it was worse than Kamikaze back then. What was the point?".
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 14 2010, 05:23 AM
Why doesn't he just have Increase Initiative SUSTAINED on a SUSTAINING FOCUS?
Based on fluff going back to Stim Patches in 1st Edition, I got the impression that drugs would be really, really bad for your Magic rating. (Yes I was the guy just talking about the drug adept.)
Posted by: Tyro Sep 14 2010, 05:25 AM
I like putting a dose of Nitro in a hollow tooth for the pain resistance. Very handy when you need to run like hell and can't afford a huge penalty to your Athletics tests.
Posted by: InfidelZombie Sep 14 2010, 12:41 PM
Because saying that is detrimental to my argument
But on a more serious note becuase I had over looked that and the mage would be required to have the spell. And while that shouldn't be much of a problem, a starting character might forego it for the time being in favour of something else.
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 14 2010, 03:31 PM
I love combat drugs and they are currently part of both the game I'm PCing and the game I'm GMing. But I would not recommend a mage who is supposed to be 'optimized' ('optimized' being the ideal state between inefficient and powergamed) choosing not to have a sustaining focus with Increase Initiative sustained on it.
Posted by: jakephillips Sep 14 2010, 05:15 PM
The mages in my game run with a sustaining focus with increased reflexes cast into it.
Posted by: Neraph Sep 14 2010, 05:30 PM
I like this theory, although exact definitions will vary. For one game in which PR-5s are the basics, an optomized PC would be a powergamed one in a game of PR-2s. But yes, I like that theoretical definition.
Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 14 2010, 06:34 PM
So adept improved reflexes III and K-10 stacks to give you 7 IP ?
Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 06:45 PM
Technically it would only give you 5IP max. (See the rules on IP that say that 5IP is the max)
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 08:10 PM
As far as I'm concerned, 4 IP is the meat-max; the current edition is a little vague on that limit, though.
Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 08:14 PM
A little?
It specifically says: Limit is 5, but most people will only ever get to 4
Stupid Catalyst
Posted by: Paul Kauphart Sep 14 2010, 08:30 PM
Well, I thought 4 was the maximum, with one exeption somewhere that could get you to 5 (though I don't remember where that 5 limit is written)
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 08:39 PM
Okay, yes: *incredibly vague*.
You can definitely get 5 Matrix IPs, but even then only with one or two specific things.
Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 08:39 PM
You used to be correct.
But in 4a they changed the wording to this:
Page 68 SR4a
take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes
on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative
Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever
achieve 4.
stupid Catalyst
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Sep 15 2010, 12:12 AM
But in 4a they changed the wording to this:
Page 68 SR4a
stupid Catalyst
Oh my god. This means my Jaguar shapeshifter can get to 5 IP's using Jazz or Cram? Gotta have to raise my BOD and WILL stats ASAP
Posted by: sabs Sep 15 2010, 01:40 AM
Technically yes
Depending on what power your Jaguar is using before jazz/cram.
Move by Wire and Wired Reflexes both say nothing stacks with them (except reaction enhancers)
Synaptic boosters say they don't stack with anything at all.
Improved Reflexes say it doesn't stack with any magical or technological IP boosters.
Increased Reflexes is interesting
at a time; the maximum IPs any character can have is 4.
Stupid Catalyst.
Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 15 2010, 03:24 AM
But in 4a they changed the wording to this:
Page 68 SR4a
stupid Catalyst
How does that override what is written in Unwired? To my knowledge, the Advanced Overclocking description is the only place in all the SR4 books where an exception is specifically made to the 4 IP rule -
Straight from my hardcopy of Unwired, pg 147.
So 4A says that a few characters can now reach 5 IPs. That doesn't mean that a non-technomancer can get 5 IP's, it's just mentioning the single exception given to the 4 IP rule, which applies only to technomancers with Advanced Overclocking.
Posted by: sabs Sep 15 2010, 03:31 AM
.
Straight from my hardcopy of Unwired, pg 147.
So 4A says that a few characters can now reach 5 IPs. That doesn't mean that a non-technomancer can get 5 IP's, it's just mentioning the single exception given to the 4 IP rule, which applies only to technomancers with Advanced Overclocking.
And Hacker with the right implants.
And it over-rides it because it's printed well after Unwired, and it doesn't say.. max 4 except for 5 in vr. it says max is 5.
If that's what they meant it really needs to be re-written.
What the book says is: Max IP is 5.
Not Max Matrix IP is 5 and Physical IP is 4.
Mmm, that's a good candidate for the broken rules thread.
Posted by: Neurosis Sep 15 2010, 03:31 AM
Um afaik the max is still 4?
Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 15 2010, 03:48 AM
And it over-rides it because it's printed well after Unwired, and it doesn't say.. max 4 except for 5 in vr. it says max is 5.
If that's what they meant it really needs to be re-written.
What the book says is: Max IP is 5.
Not Max Matrix IP is 5 and Physical IP is 4.
Mmm, that's a good candidate for the broken rules thread.
What the book also says is that most character types can only ever achieve 4. Since the only exception to the 4 IP rule mentioned in the books relates to the Matrix, it's not a far leap at all to say that technomancers and maybe hackers are the only character types capable of reaching 5, with the others ("most character types" by definition) capped at 4. So barring some crazy unidentified magic or something (although, as hinted by Vasdenjas in the Earthdawn Dragons book, 5+ IP's might be possible with draconic ritual sorcery), you cannot have a Matrix-incompetent character with 5 IP's, and you certainly cannot do something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntc0YyQWdBU (regarding the silliness of 7 IP or more).
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