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Posted by: Tyro Sep 14 2010, 03:40 AM

I want to ban SnS in my games, but it seems to be the go-to method for spirit killing when your mage isn't available to do so. What other ways would you suggest mundanes kill spirits? I'm looking for house rules as well as RAW techniques.

I use the following houserule: ItNW armor is equal to 1.5 * spirit Force (not double as RAW), rounded down, and gives auto-hits as well as adding to any other sources of armor (replacing the normal "ping ping SPLAT" rule, but only for spirits and other creatures with ItNW).

Maybe a weakness for every spirit type? I can see going after fire spirits with water cannons; what about using frost to kill plants?

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 14 2010, 05:20 AM

IMHO especially with your house rules APDS is the ammo of choice versus spirits. Sniper rifle with APDS = ItNWN (Immunity to Normal What Now?). Assuming that with your house rule (now that we're not discussing RAW) the AP would also cut through the auto-hits.

Posted by: Tyro Sep 14 2010, 05:23 AM

APDS is pretty hard to get, though. What else works? Grenades, I suppose... *thinks*

Posted by: Megu Sep 14 2010, 05:29 AM

If we're houseruling things anyways, I still think the idea of the Attacks of Will has promise; it's just too weak in its current form.

Posted by: Tyro Sep 14 2010, 05:31 AM

I agree on both points. How would you fix it?

Posted by: Summerstorm Sep 14 2010, 06:02 AM

Hm... APDS is good. Availibility is no problem anymore (per RAW i mean), it just needs a few days and you got it. (Really... extended tests are just plain weird. We need to make them Threshold/base time again).

For "fixing" attacks of will. Choose one of these:

1. Attacks are made with Will+Essence (or magic). Representing your ability to shun the intruders on YOUR plane of existance. The more you are connected with the real self, the more you can dish out.

2. Allow mundanes to learn "banishing" and make attacks with Will+Banishing. Representing your knowledge of the essence of spirits and ability to take it apart.

3. Alter the whole mechanic and make it some kind of extended struggle. Pitting maybe your magic, edge or essence against the force of the spirit.

Posted by: Tyro Sep 14 2010, 06:46 AM

I like the Will + Essence bit; the trouble is, runners tend to be either cybered or magical. The magical can kill spirits with spells (magicians & mystic adepts) or weapon foci (adepts & mystic adepts). The cybered don't generally have a whole lot of Essence.

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 14 2010, 07:21 AM

Excessive kinetic force always works. This of course depends on your game. A F4 spirit is pretty powerful against “normal” guns with damage around 4-6 and when you go towards F5+ then you really start to need hardware.

Anything with lots of damage and a little AP will do the trick.

Elephant rifle with Ex-Ex is at 10P AP-2 and would take down most spirits, especially if it is modified to SA mode to fire two shots in a single IP.

Eishiro Hatamoto II as an extra underbarrel pistol loaded with a Shock Lock round will do 8P AP-2.

Even a Slivergun is useful since it is all based upon the damage of the weapon to counter immunity. 8P is damn good for a pistol and you can use BF, sure the +5 armour can be annoying in the end but they will not be immune.

Elemental Weapon Damage 6 Spirits

Trickier and depending on what the GM classifies as an opposing element and the fact that some opposing elements are impossible to have as a mundane weapon.

Posted by: Tyro Sep 14 2010, 07:29 AM

I think making spirits harder to summon (F*2, making summoning drain the same as that for binding) should also help. Do you think this is excessive?

Posted by: Makki Sep 14 2010, 08:26 AM

get a flamethrower or an ares redline laser, but done brag about it.

Posted by: Faraday Sep 14 2010, 10:41 AM

SNS rounds might be bad, but what's keeping your PCs from packing tasers? 6 to 8S(e) with half AP is SCARY good, even with crappy range and ammo cap. They're also pretty concealable, street legal, and cheap.



I actually like the idea of mundane characters not being prohibited from taking certain magic-linked skills. There should be limitations, though. Countering by mundanes would be limited to a personal effect, banishing would work as normal (not that amazing in the first place), and binding/summoning could probably be used by mundanes to help a friendly caster. Most other magical skills are only useful to awakened folks or require having certain abilities.

Posted by: Lansdren Sep 14 2010, 10:57 AM

Well flamethrowers against Water spirits and Plant spirits should be good, and maybe watercannon against Fire and Earth.

I cant think of any weakness for the Air though and add man and beast into the mix make it more tricky for weaknesses.


I kind of like the idea of some old guy whos seen it all and been to hell and back, walks in and takes out a spirt with little trouble mostly due to packing the right ammo for the right spirt.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 11:16 AM

You don't even need opposing elements. A flamethrower is a good weapon against all spirits, by RAW even fire spirits. While they don't bypass the immunity it still is a 8P AP -half weapon. Of course against water spirits they are especially destructive (12P, no immunity)

@opposing elements: Thematically this might work, but not necessarily mechanically, because not all "elements" may be weaponized equally well. While breathing heavily at an earth spirit might give mundanes a bit of a chance against such a spirit, throwing rocks at an air spirit of equal force is much more effective, and the flamethrower against water spirits is the most devastating.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 14 2010, 11:18 AM

The AP route to get past ItNW always seemed cheesy to me, even though I see the need from a game balance perspective. I'm pondering the following:

- Delete SnS; for long-range Stun, use needleguns or something. Close-range you've got tasers. There's no need for something that's better than either of those.
- ItNW reduces nonmagical damage by it's rating (F*2), and AP doesn't factor into this in any way.
- Spirits of F4-6 use Edge to resist summoning and binding, making them rarer and not so attractive for mages to spam as mooks. With an Appeasement ceremony this can be prevented, but that takes time and money.
- Spirits of F7+ always use edge to resist summoning and binding.
- All spirits have an Allergy to something.

As you can guess, I'd like Spirits of F6 to be relatively badass, not mid-range. F3 spirits should be useful, but they're not too impossible to destroy.

Posted by: Eisenbeiß Sep 14 2010, 11:19 AM

What about the Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle with the errata-addendum? -half Armor, AP -4 and 9P Damage should be enough for almost every spirit (Force < 12 following the standard rules) I can imagine.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 11:29 AM

The houserule that started it all.
Houserule upon houserule to rebalance the first IMHO. You should ask yourself if all those rules actually add anything to your game. Unless something is completely broken I like to keep it simple i.e. no houserules.

Except for some especially effective Powers Force 3 spirits are pretty mediocre. 6 dice for most tests isn't that great.
This weapon is not widely available and pretty illegal, so it is not an option for many mundaes, but if you can get it, then it is great.

Posted by: Blade Sep 14 2010, 12:48 PM

That's what I do in my current campaign. It avoids having mages easily summoning spirits who are just better than them in nearly everything.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 14 2010, 01:12 PM

I have to say that in previous editions, elementals having an opposing element weakness was useful. But anytime my runners went up against a high Force Spirit (6+), they pulled out the heavy weapons. I'm not talking a bigger pistol or rifle. They pulled out the autocannons, missiles, etc.

They followed the idea that if 1 pound of C12 is good for hardened objects, 10 pounds must be great.

Bringing extra kinetic force to a fight was never a bad idea if you expected hardened resistance. Then again, many of my players' heavy cyber monsters could hit physically with 9+ DV (if they had been made under SR4 rules but with SR2 guidelines for stat caps and such).

Thing is a lot of the spirit issues have come up since stats got a hard cap. Under SR2, you could exceed racial maximums if you paid a large price in Good Karma and/or had a lot of cyber. Doing so made tough spirits manageable for mundanes even though they were still dangerous.

Under SR4, you cannot exceed those limits which had a collateral effect of making tough spirits exceedingly dangerous.

Some of the rules changes in SR4 have caused these very problems we are discussing.

Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 01:54 PM

The way to deal with Spirits for Mundanes. Bigger Guns.

I would expect regular security guards to switch to burst fire. Short Burst, and then Long Burst if available on the guns they're packing. If possible, the guards pull back to a hardened point with a mounted Machinegun or mini-chain gun. HRT shows up with assault canon, heavy machine guns, assault rifles with FA mods.

+3/+5/+9 DV from Short, Long, and Full Auto narrows would go a long way towards dealing with spirits and ITNW.

Drones showing up with back mounted Light Machine Guns, packing ex-ex.

A security Guard, packing an Ingram Smartgun X, with ex ammo.
DV=5P+1P+9P(full auto)=15dv.
Lets assume your average trained mook.
Agi: 3
Firearms: 2 spec (submachineguns) +2
Smart Gun: +2
(TacNet?) anywhere from 0-3 would not be unrealistic in a Spyder controlled facility.

Attack DP: 3+2+2+2 = 9
Recoil: 9-3 = 6
Final attack DP: 3
He's using Edge: lets call it 3. (I would argue a human guard might have 4)
Now he's got 6 dice with exploding 6's

Against even a Force 6 spirit, that's even odds of hitting it. And if the Spirit goes on Full Defense instead. Sure, he's not going to hit it. But who gives a damn, it's on full defense. We're trading Lead for staying alive until the big boys show up with enough firepower (or mages) to take care of the problem.

Rocket Launchers with 14P Frag Loads. Specially created 'choke points' with High Explosive booby traps.

Mundanes have options. It's called being prepared. And in a world where Spirits summoned by shadowrunners are a real concern. They really would be.

Posted by: Semerkhet Sep 14 2010, 02:55 PM

Following on what Sabs just said: My mundane runners never have a problem with spirits. If anything I feel like buffing ItNW. The street sam in the group wouldn't be caught dead packing 'regular' ammo. He's got a couple of custom handcannons that, with APDS, tear a Force 6 spirit to shreds in a couple shots.

I acknowledge that if your runners are brand new or you are just plain running a 'street' campaign where APDS is hard to get, then spirits can be a problem. For professionals, I just don't see where all the controversy comes from.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 14 2010, 02:56 PM

The OP was about how to remove SnS without spirits getting out of control.

So, if you accept the premise that SnS will be deleted (and if you don't, then why do you post in this topic), what comes next?

Personally, I feel the SnS workaround to ItNW is cheesy and I'd like to get rid of that; it doesn't sit with the way I feel ItNW should work. But will just deleting SnS make spirits overpowered?

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 14 2010, 03:01 PM

AFAIK you do not add BF/FA modifiers to the damage code when calculating against the hardened armor rules. If you face a F4 spirit then you need to gain a damage above FX2 with Base Damage Code+Ammo Modifiers.

In those situations you are better off with packing a heavy singular punch than using a BF/FA weapon.

Posted by: Semerkhet Sep 14 2010, 03:05 PM

No.


Who are we worried about? The low-level security mooks? I guess spirits are a bit overpowered compared to them, but so are heavily armed and armored shadowrunners.

For professional shadowrunners? Spirits aren't overpowered at all, imo.

I haven't had to make a judgment call on SnS in my game because the PCs don't feel like they need to use it against spirits. If I was required to make a judgment call I'd say that SnS does not work against spirits. They don't have a nervous system to shock.

Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 03:09 PM

There are plenty of mundane ways to deal with Spirits.
If you're the security expert hired to design a facility that can withstand up to X threat level, and you didn't consider spirits of X threat level. You're not doing your job. Shadowrun has spirits, spirits are hard to kill, and dangerous.

Where is your own spirits with guardian. Where are your drone mounted hard points with firepower. Where is your choke point corridor with directional claymores in the walls. Where are your wards.

Posted by: Megu Sep 14 2010, 03:15 PM

I've been going with Summerstorm's second idea for now, allowing Banishing for mundanes for the sole purpose of Attacks of Will.

Posted by: Semerkhet Sep 14 2010, 03:18 PM

Totally agree on these points.

If the facility is high security they will have thought of spirits. If the facility is not high security then your entire team is overpowered compared to the security anyway. Spirits are just the icing on the kick-ass cake.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 14 2010, 03:18 PM

You can always take out spirits by ramming them with a car, van, or bus. (Dresden did this against a plant spirit in the parking lot of a WalMart).

Satchel charges 1-4 kgs of explosives with a decent rating can take down just about everything. Explosives are cheap and fun.

If you are moving along the themed elemental damage lines, I would use Allergies. Have the allergy to their opposition element cause them to lose their powers. salt vs Air, fire vs Plant and or Water, leaving the ground for Earth, water for Fire and so on....

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 14 2010, 03:23 PM

If you never want to see spirits in your game, or more specifically, any above force ~3, its fine, otherwise its terrible.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 14 2010, 03:24 PM

I would 'fix' attack of will by making it Willpower + Relevant Close Combat Skill. Damage is still equal to Charisma, probably. I would also state that drug and technology based modifiers to EITHER attribute or the skill do not apply. Your Pheromones do not give you extra damage boxes, being on kamikaze doesn't make it easier to banish a spirit, and your Reflex Recorder does not come into play. Only your martial skill and your determination matter.

Since afaik attack of will is defended against with the spirit's Reaction + Unarmed Combat just like a physical attack, I see no reason weapon reach (and for that matter troll reach) shouldn't come into the equation.

If I was going to house rule it, that is how I would house rule it.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 14 2010, 03:32 PM

Restricting them to shot guns would be better, as we actually have tazer shells now.


This is good, as it would reduce to ping/splat effect


I really think these two suck


So long as the allergy makes sense based on the spirit type, though given the infinite range of the metaplanes, its possible what some spirits are allergic to can not physically exist within our universe.

Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 03:36 PM

Wooo Hyperbolic exageration for the win.

You want to summon a force 6 spirit, The spirit rolls F*2 for 12 dice, getting 4 hits, woop de doo.

How many mages have you seen with Drain pools of 12 or higher? Most dedicated PC magician's I've seen have 12-15 for their drain dice.
That means, that on average they're taking 0-1 drain.

That's not exactly, never happen.

If you include the Drain Value being twice the gross hits, then that shoots up to 8.
That's less happy, A good mage will take ~3-4 stun damage.

If you want pre-meditated High Spirit Summoning, allow materials, foci, etc to add to the drain pool.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 14 2010, 03:36 PM

Like hope or goodwill.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 14 2010, 03:54 PM

I've always felt that if you've reached the point where you're up against spirits with no magical backup, the heavy weapons should come out. Yes, it's pink mohawk, but what else are you going to use that Thunderstruck or Panther for?

Let your Trolls feel warm and fuzzy. Let them use the heavy guns.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 14 2010, 04:11 PM

More like a square which contains 8000 degrees of internal angles.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 14 2010, 04:14 PM

If you want to realize not all mages in the world are highly tuned to absorb drain from summoning, and yet some spirits used in security applications are exceedingly common, meaning the drain must be tolerable or else no one could ever afford to employ them.....

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 04:22 PM

As I read the OP, he was thinking about the ramifications of removing SnS, not that this was a given already. If that is not the case simply ignore that part of my post.

To me it is not any more cheesy that killing spirits with fire, but that is just my opinion.

Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 04:25 PM

Magicians summoning for security applications are using lower force spirits, or they are using longer term rituals to summon spirits, and using 'cash money' ie: ritual items, foci, gifts to the spirits, to increase their effective Drain Pool.

And Really, I would expect a Corp Mage who specializes in Security applications, specifically the summoning and binding of spirits for security, for a LIVING. Would actually be quite good at dealing with drain issues.

Spirits should not be a insta-summon something more bad-ass then all the other PC's.
Spirits should either be.. insta-summon low force spirits to run interference, do a small specific task.
Pre summon a big-bad spirit as part of legwork. Like a Street Sam buying a LAw and a couple of Frag Rockets, or 10 kilo's of plastique.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 14 2010, 04:35 PM

The whole spirit issue is the application of a lot of skill, expensive gear, and side effects and risk in the form of drain. It is a large investment for a short period of use.

With guns it is lots of skill, less expensive gear, no real side effects, and little newyen cost per use.

You need to balance the equation by either spending a lot more for a one shot item such as explosives or shell out for a more expensive gun like a laser.

Posted by: Ghremdal Sep 14 2010, 04:37 PM

I've found that the good old Elephant rifle usually does the trick with EX-EX or APDS rounds does the trick. 11DV -2AP, or 10 DV - 5 AP (when firing both barrels) usually does the trick up to anything up to F8 spirits and above.

For those spirits above that my rigger has a cannon mounted on his van. Or you can decide to run really really fast

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 14 2010, 04:49 PM

I mostly have a problem with killing 'fire' spirits with fire...

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 14 2010, 04:50 PM

If we can put out an oil well fire by setting off a bomb next to it, I don't see why we can't disrupt a fire spirit with a thermobaric kablooey.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 14 2010, 04:53 PM

As for killing spirits without resorting to attacks that shouldn't work, regular attacks involving excessive force. Grenade machine guns, thunder struck gauss guns, lasers, assault cannons, suicide drones with explosives, ramming with vehicles, using explosives to implode buildings onto them, etc....

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 14 2010, 05:41 PM

Spirits are the big ramification, don't you think? What else would be a big ramification?




Well, I'm not wild about that. Sure, water spirits, but fire elementals should be fairly good at handling it.

A solution which could be charming, or complicated, is to give spirits Allergies based on the elemental rock paper scizzors of their tradition; Wuxing spirits might have different allergies than Hermetic ones. For example, a Wuxing Water elemental might be allergic to wood ("Wood absorbs water") rather than fire.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 06:11 PM

I think the easier solution is to remove SnS and go back to older versions of ItNW. They only get F instead of F*2.

Posted by: Semerkhet Sep 14 2010, 06:25 PM

I still don't understand the problem. Are there a large preponderance of street level games where the PCs run around with stock pistols and regular ammo? The PC in my group has a sniper rifle that's not even hugely tricked out and that thing, with APDS, can take out a Force 6 spirit in one shot. That sniper rifle is the heaviest weapon in the group, no LMGs, railguns or assault cannons. Between the dual-wielding Warhawk(equivalents), the sniper rifle, the mage, and the adept with Killing Hands, I would need to throw multiple Force 8+ spirits to begin to overwhelm the team.

It's not that my team thinks spirits are a joke but the ItNW is not the spirit power my team is afraid of.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 14 2010, 06:30 PM

Don't forget that no spirit likes getting Thunderstruck.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 08:26 PM

Spirits should be an assistance to a mage, not a force than can single-handedly destroy a tank column that a starting mage can manage.

Honestly the real issue should be "why do you feel the need to throw high level spirits at your players instead of real opposition that uses superior tactics". Exceptions going to bug spirits, I'd like to see your tricked out players taking on multiple F10 bug warriors and THEN not complain about ItNW in 4th Edition.

Posted by: TommyTwoToes Sep 14 2010, 08:33 PM

The problem isn't ITNW, the problem is F10.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 08:46 PM

Even with a less severe F6 spirit, let's really think about it. You need to bypass twelve (12) armor in order to even harm said spirit. That's a lot of armor, and bursts don't help you overcome this. Sniper rifles are great, of course, but how often are carrying around a sniper rifle and can quickly access it? Not often.

More reasonably speaking we have SMGs, Heavy Pistols, and Assault Rifles.

SMG is 5P. With Ex-Ex you're looking at 6P -1. This means you still need 5 net hits. The spirit still gets to dodge as well. Statistically you'll need 15 dice to get a decent chance. Wide burst helps, but you still need 5 hits.

Heavy Pistol is 5P -1. With Ex-Ex you're looking at 6P -2. This means you'll need 4 hits. Spirit still gets to dodge as well. Statistically you'll need 12 dice to get a decent chance.

Assault Rifle is 6P -1. With Ex-Ex you're lookin at 7P -2. This means you'll need 3 hits. With a wide burst you can probably negate most of the dodge of the spirit. You'll only need 9 dice to have a decent chance.

This is assuming optimum scenario, namely that you're already loaded for bear with loud, powerful ammunition. This does not factor in movement, lighting, cover, etc. APDS is ridiculously hard to get ahold of, especially given you're buying 10 rounds at a time, and should not be really considered the end all be all.

I'll add in one last one for the gun bunnies that noticed it missing.

Ruger Superwarhawk is 6P -2. With Ex-Ex (which we all know you're loading exclusively) you're at 7P -3. You need 2 hits and chances are you're throwing in excess of 16 and called a shot as well

Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 08:49 PM

I still think that the +DV from Burst and Full auto should count for penetrating armor.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 09:01 PM

The bullets are hitting with the same force, there are simply more of them.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 09:05 PM

Don't forget shotguns. They're at 7P -1 for normal slugs (8P -2 for ExEx slugs, 7P -5 for APDS) or 9P(f) with a logical AP of +4 but the book states +5. Not too bad either.

Posted by: kzt Sep 14 2010, 09:10 PM

The problem is that tasers work by having little darts the stick so they can carry the electrical charge. The little darts don't stick to something that is essentially the side of an armored car. So logically they shouldn't work. ...

We never used the SnS or Tasers, we shot the crap out of them with alphas with APDS and HE grenades, with AT rockets occasionally. But generally we just had to delay them until the mage stunbolted them away.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 09:11 PM

That +5 applies though, to my knowledge, and may be more of a hinderance, I did forget shotguns though, you are correct.

Posted by: sabs Sep 14 2010, 09:11 PM

Amusingly a Troll with a Combat Axe, has a much better shot
He's doing 10DV + net hits. Sadly of course, he has to hit. But

Posted by: Megu Sep 14 2010, 09:14 PM

Mechanics wise that's probably a good fit, but honestly I think the big thematic/aesthetic appeal of the Attacks of Will as a concept, at least for me, is that it's fundamentally not about physical force or combat skill, but deeply connects with what the characters are feeling at that point. I kind of like the idea of, say, after the hostile spirit mows down the chromed bodyguard, the little corpgirl protecting her baby brother puts all of her will into protecting him and disbands it with a punch. I mean, fortunately SR already has a mechanic to manage that sort of extra effort when it really counts, Edge. Anyways, it'd make it harder to have scenes or plots involving that sort of thing with an AoW dependent on mundane combat abilities.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 09:17 PM

ItNW is not armor it only works similarly to armor in the game mechanics. So I'm not sure if your statement applies to spirits, especially given the great variety of looks spirits can have.
The +2 DV more than compensate it. You have a higher chance of forcing the spirit to roll damage resistance and the Net damage should also be 1/3 higher on average.

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 14 2010, 09:19 PM

Yes. I eventually resorted to folding Firearms back into a single skill again just to get people to quit using Arsenal to just pick one weapon and tweak it so it's good for every situation again. Typically that weapon was an Automatic of some sort.

Anyway, the hyperbole of a starting mage dropping a spirit that could take out a tank column made me smirk a bit given the shenanigans a legit rigger can do with a solid weapons array.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 09:24 PM

Or rather, it would, except your DV must ~exceed~ their armor value. AP counts. In fact, your chances are worse.

Example, same F6 spirit.

Shotgun w/normal slug is 7P -1. You need 4 hits.

Shotgun w/Flechette is 9P +4(logically). You now need 7 hits. As the +4 pushes their armor to 16. In most cases the +2/+5 is a fair tradeoff, until you get to the ass backwardness of SR4 ItNW.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 09:25 PM

Not if he has 15 KE on Dodge Scoots in pursuit

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 14 2010, 09:34 PM

Just saying, a Citymaster with a water cannon will be harming any Force 8 Spirit it can hit by default and it's treated as a fully automatic weapon, so you can use wide bursts to try netting a whole mess of net hits and thus have a good shot at harming even higher force spirits or you can go narrow and really hose weaker spirits down.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 09:40 PM

Incidentally, I thought S&S used adhesive. I think this same 'issue' has been raise in each of the million S&S threads.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 09:50 PM

Again, you're assuming optimum conditions for the runners, which happens approximately...never. Most of your spirit combat will be on corp property. Which is where most of the comparisons start breaking. Although I'm surprised no one mentioned using the murder cycle yet.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 09:57 PM

Actually, I'd assume the Citymaster/Water Cannon setup is a suggestion for corps to use *against* runners' spirits.

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 14 2010, 10:29 PM

What he said. The only thing I've assumed here is that starting runner level spirits will have a hard time with a tank column in the vast majority of games. There's outlier possession builds with buff subjects that can get up to some shenanigans but as a general rule Spirits aren't trouncing on vehicles to the extent that was implied earlier since both types benefit from what essentially amounts to hardened armor. Spirits are generally just a symptom of how poorly damage and armor scales in this game beyond a certain point really-- The system plays fast and feels pretty alright at the lower end but frays a bit around the edges the farther you have to stretch it to incorporate bigger and badder subjects. Spirits just happen to exacerbate the situation since it's easier to fit one in an office building than a Citymaster.

Posted by: Tyro Sep 14 2010, 10:47 PM

OP here. I run with F * 1.5 (rounded up) auto-hits which also counts as regular armor. I intensely dislike the hardened armor concept applying to spirits. I also allow burst fire to work normally, for reasons which should be obvious. So considering those rules, maybe removing SnS won't unbalance things. I still want to fix attacks of will, though; Will + relevant Close Combat skill works for me. Also, any suggestions for fixing Banishing? As written it's SO much better to just Stunbolt, unless you really really want to Pokéball the sucker.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 11:23 PM

Banishing works rather in a reverse fashion. A higher force spirit will in some ways be easier to simply banish by virtue of it likely having a relatively small number of services. While stunbolting is attractive still, if the mage is within LOS of the spirit remember that it will get its own (potentially) absurd WIL + counterspell, while banishing is your MAG + Banish vs F (or + MAG of caster if bound... hope not) where your hits decrease services (and at 0 the spirit goes poof)

Posted by: tagz Sep 15 2010, 12:24 AM

In my game all spirits have listed Allergies, but they also have another Allergy quality that is particular to the tradition that summoned them.

For instance, Hermetic spirits are allergic to silver and Shamanistic spirits are Allergic to bone.

The materials should be something that isn't exactly commonplace but not that hard to get a hold of. The whole idea is to make doing some research and legwork really pay off when it comes to spirits.

Posted by: kzt Sep 15 2010, 04:24 AM

Probably. But anyhow, how do you glue a SnS round to something that is living fire? And really hot fire, based on the energy aura damage.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 05:38 AM

Make up your mind: "The little darts don't stick to something that is essentially the side of an armored car."

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 15 2010, 05:51 AM

Fire spirits are not made of fire they are made of mana that possibly looks like fire and have the Fire Aura. That aura does not damage projectiles by RAW. Also there is no mention that SnS need to stay attached to continue to work. Even if the projectile needed to resist the damage of passing through the aura, it is a question of is the aura able to destroy the projectile before it reaches its target. Another point is that if the energy aura worked that way all creatures having it would be a lot more resilient as any attacking device, be it bullet or melee weapon, would possibly be destroyed before even reaching the spirit and checking for ItNW.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 06:06 AM

It's a flat mistake to try and use 'realism' or 'logic' in adjudicating these rules.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 15 2010, 06:07 AM

I agree that applying realism to a gameworld that includes magic is a fool's errand, but you can't leave out logic.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 06:10 AM

Not logic, 'logic'. With scare-quotes. As in, 'S&S clearly can't work, because he's made of fire, duh!' Logic says that they work, because the book doesn't say they don't.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 15 2010, 06:12 AM

OK

Posted by: kzt Sep 15 2010, 06:23 AM

There is a lot of truth to that, but if the rules actually had been playtested, and didn't leave huge areas that required interpretation of what the writer was trying to say it would be a lot easier to do.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 15 2010, 06:33 AM

What force are your starting mages summoning, that can go face to face with even a single tank.
Firelance vehicle laser frys anythink up to force 12(max uniniated mage can summon)
Light gaus cannon kills spirits up to force 22.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 06:36 AM

I agree, kzt. What I'm saying is that we can justify nearly anything if we allow ourselves to make up the reasons. I certainly agree that balance is the ideal, and that vague or patchy rules are a huge frustration.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 15 2010, 07:15 AM

*cough cough* I can have a starting character summon a F28 spirit... some of the time.

Since spirit's aren't immune to toxins, how about some Narcoject? That 10 stun is a quick way to disrupt spirits. As is Slab. Or what about using Pixie Dust so that the spirits forget what tasks they're on?

Posted by: Mäx Sep 15 2010, 08:32 AM

Ofcource you can, but i doupt his players can.
And most of the time you die if you try that, avarage 18P drain hurt a lot and thats with out the spirit using edge(and at that force it really should)
with edge to reroll failures, the avarage drain rises to 30P. with really bad luck the drain can be 56P
Also could you tell me how you get your summoning pool to 30+ dice, so you have a chance to actually get a servise out of that spirit.

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 15 2010, 09:17 AM

RAW aside since they dont have a biological body or a working cardivascular system or nervous system they would just ignore said drug.

Not to mention getting a dartguns damage code through their immunity to normal weapons...

Posted by: Sengir Sep 15 2010, 09:29 AM

Sure, that's just a practical application of the Infinite Monkey Theorem.
A naked character with just two soaking dice (one body and one edge) also can fully absorb the damage of a long narrow burst from a heavy gauss...some of the time. The chance of rolling a gazillion 6s one after another is greater than 0

Posted by: Tyro Sep 15 2010, 11:01 AM

Either way, they don't stick

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 15 2010, 02:35 PM

Explosions maybe but I don't care what RAW says, so long as I have my druthers in ANY game where somebody casts a fire spell on a fire elemental it doesn't goddamn work.

Posted by: The Jopp Sep 15 2010, 02:58 PM

I would allow the damage of a fiery explosion but the Elemental Effect of Fire would be ignored and be classified as a mundane weapon.

After all, the explosive Blast can still damage it but not the actual firestorm.

End result, it would still have immunity to it.

Posted by: DireRadiant Sep 15 2010, 03:24 PM

Spirits have DV boxes. Stuff does DV damage. Spirits get hurt by stuff.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 15 2010, 03:43 PM

QFT

Fire spirits are not immune to fire. Even if they were (as per rules), a big enough fire would still burn them. They are even doubly vulnerable to fire spells, since this is magical damage. There is no rule that elemental spells cease to be spells versus ItNW.

As a houserule you can do whatever is fun for your group.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 03:55 PM

Ooh! You could go all Final Fantasy: fire heals them, water and ice do double, something I forget does zero… Don't forget that Atma ignores all armor.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 15 2010, 04:00 PM

Most of the time there was no water element in FF games. It was Fire(Fira,Firaga, Firaja) heals, Blizzard(Blizzara, Blizzaga, Blizzaja) does double damage and Thunder (Thundara, Thundaga, Thundaja) deal normal damage. Water spells were usually listed under Blue magic in games that had it... I play too many damn games.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 15 2010, 04:07 PM

1) You saying "RAW aside" invalidated your post from a RAW perspective, and when you ask for help with the rules of a game, you should be expecting people to argue from RAW. As a houserule, you're right though.

2) I said nothing about dartguns. There's also capsule rounds and the Super Squirt, both of which only require you to hit the target, not actually do damage.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 05:05 PM

As always, it's Narcoject + DMSO, of course. The contradictory dart guns are an issue for the Broken Rules thread.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 15 2010, 05:18 PM

Halleluja....AMEN brother, AMEN...

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Sep 15 2010, 05:31 PM

But why, exactly?
A fire elemental is made of the exact same material as an earth elemental, or an air elemental, or a water elemental, or a spirit of man, or a plant spirit, ad nauseum.

Unless that fire elemental has some innate defense against fire, which, by RAW, they don't.
(Now, whether they should is a different question altogether...but giving just them fire immunity probably makes them too good. Which rapidly turns into Dumpshock's favorite debate topic: "Magic is too powerful because I don't use the rules, therefore it should be weakened across the board!")

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 05:34 PM

Eh, it'd probably be okay to give elemental spirits their relevant elemental immunity. God knows they're not Beast or Guardian spirits, poor things. It would help fire spirits more than earth spirits, of course. *shrug* As with all house rules, do what works for your group.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 15 2010, 06:54 PM

Unless you consider metal to be included in "Earth" as an element, in which case it can get petty nasty with bullets.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 06:57 PM

Haha, oh god. Obviously, that's not the case, but that is indeed a scary thought. I think we're talking about elemental magic, though.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 15 2010, 07:32 PM

Well only options for elemental magic type immunities for an earth elemental are metal or acid

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:38 PM

Right; like I said, they get screwed compared to fire spirits under this hypothetical house rule. Metal's not an element in SR4, and acid should be 'super-effective!' against earth spirits, if anything.

Posted by: Megu Sep 15 2010, 08:13 PM

I been thinking about the Attacks of Will thing some more. How does a base of Willpower + Edge sound? Is that too strong, especially with Banishing in the mix?

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 15 2010, 08:28 PM

I was under the impression drugs don't work on spirits. Because they can not receive first aid. But if drugs do work then they should be able to take combat drugs and use slap patches. Both work on everything else under the sun except drones.

Spirits can eat food and excrete waste, but they get no sustenance from it.

I think a poison spell should work but normal poison should not, or be subjected to ITNW. But if not then beneficial drugs should work.

If they did not have ITNW for poisons then the sure fire way to kill any spirit is nerve gas or just knock out gas to disrupt them. Kind of lame.

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 15 2010, 08:28 PM

Actually, with the Street Magic rules there is a Metal elemental effect category, it just doesn't come up very often given that it is so analogous with flechette and shrapnel, nor does it halve Impact armor (although it does have a heightened DV). Given the presence of wacky spells like Firewater I don't personally have much of a problem making a distinction between "magic" shrapnel and the mundane stuff from a grenade, either, so giving Earth spirits immunity to Sand and Metal spell effect damage wouldn't bother me thematically. Still, immunity to such spell effects would be just a fluff bonus most of the time since I wouldn't expect many magicians to keep such spells on hand in the first place. I'd probably go with weak to Acids (Rarely weaponized in my games to begin with, which is nice) and immune to Metal and Sand spells along with a bonus to resist knockdowns, a trait that isn't entirely useless on low Force spirits.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 08:38 PM

Oh, neat. Thanks for that heads up on Metal, Whipstitch. I assumed earth spirits were only immune to Hard Rock.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 15 2010, 08:45 PM

some stone dissolve very rapidly in acid wile other stone is highly resistant to it. It forget but I think it has to do with having iron oxide in the stone or not. So sedimentary rocks like sand stone often are dissolved but igneous stones are not.
(Some not very well done video of dissolving different types of rock.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB5wTbdfOxs

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 08:49 PM

Ack, real-life science and logic! It burnss ussss! It burnss uss like ridiculous 'weaponized acid' in every game ever!

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 15 2010, 09:00 PM

Well if you ever come up across a totally sand stone castle throwing acid at it would work in real life and fast too. It is eating at what binds the sand and pebbles together. But that is about the only thing it is good for fast dissolving.

Formic acid is another cool acid. It is know for being able to dissolve glass (though no quickly) but it is a very deadly contact poison that is absorbed through the skin.

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 15 2010, 10:47 PM

Yeah, honestly, the reason why I suggest weak to acid has more to do with keeping the "rock, paper, scissors" game alive than it does with chemistry or logic. One could also make an argument that if you're really serious about assigning allergies then what spirits are weak against should be determined by the tradition as much as anything else. Unfortunately, that would require more work on the GM's part as well as a bit of guesswork on the part of NPCs and players when trying to pinpoint what would harm a given spirit. For example, if you go by the Wu Xing's Destructive Cycle as an inspiration it's Wood that destroys Earth, but such things are hardly common knowledge. Plus, wood is obviously a pretty common material and it seems perhaps a bit unfair to Earth Spirits, which are frankly already rather unpopular from a pure power gaming perspective. Living wood would be an interesting alternative-- breaking a potted plant over an Earth spirit and watching it overgrow the poor bastard would be ace.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 02:23 AM

I agree, the Shen/Ko cycles are a more flexible and satisfying elemental system, but what can you do? *shrug*

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 16 2010, 11:27 AM

On the one hand it's cute if spirits follow the elemental rock paper scizzors of their own tradition. But indeed, it's a burden to the GM.

Then again, how many traditions will you usually face? Shamanic, Hermetic, Wuxing and maybe 3 others? Just enough to make that Arcana or Knowledge: Spirit Weaknesses skills valuable. The GM could just fill in the obscure traditions by the time somebody plays them. It'd be a way to emphasize the differences between the traditions.

Posted by: Digital Heroin Sep 16 2010, 04:25 PM

I'm no phsyicistiologist, but I reckon it's not so much the metal in bullets that do the damage, so much as the kinetic impact. And when in doubt, break out the beef or ice bullets...

...thank you CSI.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 16 2010, 04:31 PM

It is in Street Magic.

EDIT: Aaak, I was a bit late on that one.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 16 2010, 04:34 PM

1) Where's the rule that says they can't accept slap patches and combat drugs? Accepting First Aid is gaining healing effects from the skill.

2) ItNW is specifically against Damage Resistance Tests (indirectly) - Immunity (Toxins) is for toxins, and Spirits do not have it.

Posted by: Megu Sep 16 2010, 08:41 PM

I'm not sure. My games it was pretty much a different tradition each time. Although the Norse tradition and our homebrew Hmong tradition both got a hell of a workout, the people they were fighting, well, I remember everything from Shinto to Cree magicians coming up.

Posted by: Irion Sep 16 2010, 09:23 PM

@Neraph
Well, it is said, that they do not have bodys. So actually poison is unable to affect them.
What should nerve gas do, if there are no nervs.

A car does also not have an immunity to poison. Should therefor VX blow up tanks?

As a matter of fact spirits are quite funny things. If they are able to function as a toster, they should be able to have a Form, which is immun to electricity....

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 16 2010, 10:26 PM

If they materialize the have bodies, or how would they be able to slap you?

Of course it shouldn't but a) tanks are not alive b) we know how tanks are supposed to work IRL, we don't know how spirits are supposed to work IRL because there aren't any. So we can only use whatever is in the book. Since there is immunity to toxins and Spirits don't have it, logically they can't be immune.

Even if a spirit looks like a toaster and works like one, it shouldn't be immune to electricity. Real toasters aren't immune to electricity. If enough current goes through the wires they will fry.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 10:31 PM

Don't get him started, Irion.

Posted by: tagz Sep 17 2010, 01:25 AM

I'm not going to say anything about the vehicles and toxins... that is something they messed up on.


However, the whole thing about spirits and "no bodies", "no nervous systems", etc to justify them not taking various forms of damage and other in game effects...

I'm assuming you're speaking of SM p 90, The Nature Of Spirits to gleam this information. It should be noted that this is in fact NOT RAW. It is however canon fluff. You can tell this because the passage in question is "In Character Speech", written by one Prof. Leonard Montenegro and posted by the Jackpoint user Ethernaut who even proceeds it with the statement that it isn't even 100% trustworthy. This is clearly not a rule section of the book, so therefor not RAW, but a good source of fluff.

If we start taking any in character sections and applying it to mechanics nothing stops me from say using UW p30:

"Well, there's public opinion and there's fact. Hackers today need to be more then just brains. You can't hide in a basement and do overwatch anymore. IC or a bad biofeedback filter used to be the worst thing a hacker came up against. Now, a hacker who doesn't know how to handle themselves in a fight - or at least how to duck - isn't going to last through the first run."
*Glitch

Imagine the mayhem if I took the parts I liked as RAW just cause it was in the book. "Oh, hacker... first fight is over and I don't see a rank in a combat skill or dodge skill. Well, the last line here clearly says you die. Too bad. Roll a new character."

Not saying that if your game want's to treat toxins and elementals or whatever as ineffectual towards spirits that you can't or shouldn't, just that it's all based on fluff and not RAW.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 17 2010, 02:16 AM

I think you mean Hydrofloric acid, as formic acid is used by ants.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 17 2010, 02:19 AM

Neither do cars.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 17 2010, 02:21 AM

Cars are also not specifically unaffected by drugs. Let the Jazz Car be born!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 02:26 AM

HF is the one that dissolves glass and is a contact poison, yes. Still, maybe *formic acid* could be made by a chem gland, and then you'd be Ant Man!

Posted by: phlapjack77 Sep 17 2010, 03:16 AM

Cars have armor though, so you'd have to put the drug / toxin in a DMSO solution to affect them?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 03:22 AM

Does DMSO say it goes through vehicle armor? Two can play at the 'there's no rule!' game.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Sep 17 2010, 03:26 AM

DMSO doesn't specifically say it DOESN'T go through vehicle armor, so...

Maybe the drug has to hit the engine, or "heart", of the vehicle or something to affect it

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 03:27 AM

It says it goes through the skin, though, as an exclusive function. Hehe.

OOH! How about this:

God knows how big the dose for a car is. ;D

Posted by: phlapjack77 Sep 17 2010, 03:31 AM

It doesn't specifically say it CAN'T affect vehicles, just that the given prices and descriptions are for doses to affect metahumans. OBVIOUSLY the prices and dosage would have to be much higher to affect a vehicle

*edit* dang, your edit ninja skills were faster than mine. Need more cyber...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 03:31 AM

I daresay *prohibitively* higher. Mwa ha ha.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Sep 17 2010, 03:35 AM

This line is bugging me, now:

Dosages for toxins vary considerably from substance to substance, and prices and descriptions given are for a standard dose effective against most metahuman physiology.

MOST metahuman physiology? Let a bit of wiggle room, there? What metahuman physiology are they leaving out?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 03:38 AM

Body 20 Trolls, Body 1 Humans, etc. Out of combat, you'd obviously tailor the dose to the person.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Sep 17 2010, 03:47 AM

And thus a new skill, Anesthesiologist, was born

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 03:50 AM

I think that's Artisan. Just kidding, it's a knowledge skill. Don't need it though, because you can just google their mass/etc. Yay, Matrix.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 17 2010, 05:28 AM

Doesn't have too. Aerosol the compound in question, and add DMSO. If the car has an air intake, it will get in.
Also there is nothing special about vehicle armor that I'm aware of which allow it to ignore the penetration effects of noxious agents.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 17 2010, 05:30 AM

What have I wrought...

Or rather, what have the game designers wrought that I have brought to light?

Posted by: Faraday Sep 17 2010, 08:10 AM

This is what life support and enviroseal are for.

Posted by: Mordinvan Sep 17 2010, 12:43 PM

Yes but do those systems say they protect the passengers or the car?

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 17 2010, 12:53 PM

So if a spirit is possessing a vessel that is not immune to poisons and can use drugs, then the spirit can be hurt by poison and use drugs, but if it is a materialization spirit or in a body that is not hurt by poison, such as plasteel or dead wood, then it can't use drugs or be hurt by poison.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 01:18 PM

Mordinvan, that's not a very good solution. Aerosol is not the most useful vector.

Yay, Badmoodguy88! 'Problem' solved. Now do it for vehicles.

In other news, I can't decide if I'm glad or depressed that the writers knew their players were so stupid that they'd try using First Aid or getting 'ware on a Free Spirit PC. :/

Posted by: Karoline Sep 17 2010, 01:28 PM

Foresight, because some spirits can materialize to look human, so the basic reasoning is that if it looks human and acts human then it should be able to accept first aid and ware like a human. They mention in fluff that a spirit, regardless of looking like it is made of X, is actually not, so they just added this as crunch to reinforce that, which is good, because I've seen plenty of people that forget that a spirit isn't actually made of X.

Edit: oh, and no, the spirit can't be hurt by poison while it is possessing, but the body it is inhabiting can be hurt. The two tracks are separate, though the most common form of damage (bullets and blades) hurts both, so people sometimes forget that it isn't just 'what happens to one happens to the other.'

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 01:30 PM

Like I said, "the writers knew their players were so stupid that they'd try". :/

Posted by: Irion Sep 17 2010, 09:04 PM

@Karoline

Well, I guess they should have reinforced it a bit more. A manifesting spirit should not be able to work as an Toster. (Or at least should have to defend against the damage caused by electricity.)

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 17 2010, 09:06 PM

People can also have the immunity quality.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 18 2010, 03:12 AM

Irion: unless it has Realistic Form (Toaster).

Posted by: suoq Sep 18 2010, 07:59 AM

Fixed.

I really need to write up a possession spirit inhabiting a chicken vindaloo...

Posted by: Irion Sep 18 2010, 01:14 PM

Well, realistic Form and mutable form are about one power point for a free spirit.
And transforming into a car with a lasercannon on top is just silly.

Posted by: Karoline Sep 18 2010, 01:18 PM

Correct, it has 0 ability to act as a toaster. The spirit has no metal coils to pass the electricity through to heat up to toast anything.

It could certainly look like a toaster, and if it was a fire spirit it could maybe use its energy aura to toast the bread, but a spirit could never actually operate like a toaster.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 18 2010, 04:17 PM

Again, unless with Realistic Form.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 18 2010, 04:23 PM

How do you figure that "no first aid" means "no drugs or toxins?" First Aid, Toxins, and Drugs are three separate things in the rules.

Posted by: Irion Sep 18 2010, 04:44 PM

@Yerameyahu
And thats the annoying part.

Spirits should not be affected by drugs, most toxins etc.

Posted by: Irion Sep 18 2010, 04:44 PM

@Yerameyahu
And thats the annoying part.

Spirits should not be affected by drugs, most toxins etc.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 18 2010, 04:45 PM

I assumed he meant this part: "Free spirits may not use cyberware, bioware, nanoware, transgenics, drugs, or anything else that requires an organic body."

Irion, I just meant that it could act as a toaster (toast bread). The power doesn't necessarily imply that a Realistic Form of something living would be affected by drugs/toxins: "A spirit that appears as a metahuman would have a heartbeat and a regular breathing rate."

Note that this is simply the appearance, "A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object’s normal functionality […]". It's vague as to whether 'mimics normal functionality' means 'is affected by drugs/toxins', or if it simply means that it pretends to breath and 'pretends' to have a pulse, see?

Try to ignore Neraph, he always takes the anti-common-sense position. It's not a character flaw, it's an intellectual exercise.

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 18 2010, 04:48 PM

Yeah, it does rather plainly say that Free Spirits cannot use "transgenics, drugs or anything that requires an organic body." But with that said, I'm not terribly sure whether that should be considered to include toxins, given the existence of things like pesticide allergies (although admittedly bug spirits are essentially inhabitation spirits) and toxic paranormal powers like Noxious Breath or Anaphylaxis. Further, they seem to largely be talking about things that would be beneficial to the spirit if they worked. So while I think it would make a certain amount of sense if Spirits are outright immune to most toxins, I could see how the devs may have refrained from going that far in order to leave open the possibility of anti-spirit Awakened toxins or spirit-on-spirit poisoning attacks. Thematically though I agree with the people that think it'd make sense if narcoject wasn't terribly effective against air spirits, but then, I'm not the one making the rules.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 18 2010, 04:52 PM

'Toxins' certainly require an organic body; that's part of what toxins are. What you're asking (and it's a good question) is about non-drug/non-toxin *chemicals*. 'Generic acid' is probably the easiest example.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Sep 18 2010, 09:31 PM

I consider any allergies a host has to act as allergies to the spirit aswell. But I also consider any immunities to affect the spirit as well. This is somewhat disputed by some people.

So a spirit possessing a shapeshifter would have silver bypass their immunity to normal weapons. A spirit possessing a wood golem would have a vulnerability to fire. Spirits don't need to breath but wile possessing a human they might need to breath to keep the vessel alive.

As for acid, it is a chemical burn, like fire but some things "burn" better than others. I guess you need to ask if immunity to poisons and toxins grants protection from acid. You could rule either way. I don't think anything has an immunity to just poison. It either case I think spirits would still get some protection in the form of immunity to normal weapons.

Just some things to consider. Excuse the spelling. I am away from a spellchecker at the moment.

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 19 2010, 01:42 AM

I just used the term toxin 'cuz that's what the book uses for the most part. I guess if we want to be nit picky the better word here would be poisons, but by the RAW these things are all still rated based on their toxicity and use the same rules, so it hardly matters that much.

Posted by: Whipstitch Sep 19 2010, 01:53 AM

.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 19 2010, 04:09 AM

But that's my point, Whipstitch: the book isn't very careful about these issues, and you're right to mention it. It's not 'nit-picking' when it matters.

Posted by: Neraph Sep 19 2010, 03:41 PM

I was going to take offense until the underlined part (emphasis mine). Thank you for noticing.


Only if the spirit cares about the vessel. Possession spirits can possess corpses just as easily as living bodies (barring willing summoners, that is).