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Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 14 2010, 02:18 PM

Ok, so I am playing around with the idea of a new gunslinger for myself. The guy would only use pistols. His normal schtick is the 2 semi-automatics in his hands. Ambidex, dual-wielding pistols. Blah, blah, blah... however, if he ever saw something really mean and nasty, he would need something with more oomph. So I thought of giving him some big, bad-ass revolver he wears on his hip. I was wondering...

Can I take a Colt Cavalier Revolver (the semi-automatic revolver from Arsenal) and add the Burst-Fire modification to it? So, with every pull of the trigger, the the gun would shoot a 3 round burst. Since it's a revolver and uses a cylinder as it's ammo container... it's not possible for such a weapon?

Or would you recommend some other weapon? His theme is Pistols only, so no SMG's, Shotguns, etc...

Posted by: Sengir Sep 14 2010, 02:46 PM

First of all the RL perspective, semi-auto revolver technology does exist but is rarely used. Revolver autocannons on the other hand are quite popular as an alternative to gatling guns.

In SR terms the SS-BF mod includes some massive handwavium, modding a bolt-action rifle for full auto is no less believeable than a burst-firing revolver. And double the uncompensated recoil, just to show everybody what a big badass piece you are toting


PS: Now that you've got me thinking, maybe in addition to the BF mod add an ammo skip system (to turn the drum) and electronic firing (no more cocking), that should reduce the necessary suspension of disbelief a bit...

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 14 2010, 02:50 PM

I know that revolvers are cool, but wouldn´t it be easier to modify a ares-viper-slivergun to shoot regular ammunition? This would be burst-fire-cabability, a higher damage code AND a clip with 30 shots. Much more bang for your bucks. (I don´t know if this is possible, but IF it is possible it would be the better solution).

Posted by: AKWeaponsSpecialist Sep 14 2010, 02:53 PM

Ruger Thunderbolt. Base has BF only, only fires Short Bursts. Small Fire Selection Modification to add Semi-Auto. Use the rest of the slots however you please :JD

Posted by: AKWeaponsSpecialist Sep 14 2010, 02:53 PM

Ruger Thunderbolt. Base has BF only, only fires Short Bursts. Small Fire Selection Modification to add Semi-Auto. Use the rest of the slots however you please :JD

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 14 2010, 02:58 PM

What Damage code does the Ruger have?

Posted by: Semerkhet Sep 14 2010, 03:00 PM

The street sam in my game opted for the slightly more realistic (than revolver burst fire, that is) option of commissioning a pair of heavy duty .50 cal revolvers with smart ammo selection. I gave him a bonus to DV and AP that he is quite happy with. They're single-shot, so he gets one shot with each per action phase. I'd say that a +1 to DV and -1 to AP are just as good as burst fire, especially since the burst fire DV bonus isn't figured into armor penetration.

Posted by: AKWeaponsSpecialist Sep 14 2010, 03:01 PM

5P, -1 AP, 2 base RC, making it an excellent candidate for dual-wielding

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 14 2010, 03:26 PM

Speaking as a gun-obsessed person, with my enormous, encyclopedic (and wholly theoretical) knowledge of firearms, I see no reason for this of all things to not be possible in Shadowrun.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 14 2010, 03:38 PM

Personally, I'd go with:

Ruger Thunderbolt
-Firing Selection Change(SA) 1 Slot
-Firing Selection Change(FA) 1 Slot
-Personalized Grip 1 Slot
-whatever feature you think is cool

and

Ruger Super Warhawk
-Firing Selection Change(SA) 1 Slot
-Increased Cylinder 1 Slot
-Smartgun System

Posted by: Stingray Sep 14 2010, 04:00 PM

..Adding Personalized Grip and Underbarrel- weight makes 4 RC (if Optional rule from Arsenal is in use.. STR 6 min gives u Extra RC,
6 round burst and no penalties..)

Posted by: Angelone Sep 14 2010, 04:06 PM

If you're going for the pistol theme you could always try for the Armstech MGL-6 which is a grenade pistol. Only problem is the availbility. Will have to do good on your fast talk GM skill.

The FN-AAL Gyrojet pistol pretty much has the same problem with avail., but it's thematically awesome. It's a pistol that fires rockets and it works underwater.

Could always go with the Roomsweeper. It's pistol sized and has the same range iirc.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 14 2010, 04:13 PM

Why the Roomsweeper when you can go for the Altmayr SP. It's a pistol sized shotgun without the drawbacks of the Roomsweeper.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 14 2010, 04:16 PM

So he has pair of Ruger Super Warhawks or did you actually gave him a pair of revolvers that have 7P -3AP damage code?

Except that you need the long-arms skill for that, it is after all a shotgun, not a pistol.

Posted by: Stingray Sep 14 2010, 04:48 PM

Remington Roomsweeper is classified as Heavy Pistol,as is Ares Viper Slivergun. Pistols skill is used
when firing them.

Posted by: The Grue Master Sep 14 2010, 05:16 PM

If you really need to kill something with a pistol (especially with ambidexterity) I can not overstate the power of the Ruger Super Warhawk. The gun is SS but if you have one in each hand you can fire twice per Combat Turn. Not only does it pack an extra DV but it also has an extra AP. And since you're not splitting your dice pools, you'll generate more hits (what you need to punch through heavy armor like spirits/vehicles). No recoil, no firing mode alterations, etc. If you don't think you need the extra hits, pick up Electronic Firing, SS->SA mods to get yourself four blasts per turn. Works incredibly well with XX and APDS ammunition but gel rounds are also pretty sick as the knockdown is high enough to take down bigger things.

Posted by: jakephillips Sep 14 2010, 05:21 PM

Pair or ruger super warhawks with EX Exoplosive ammo gets you to 7p and with SS you can shoot one wiht each hand and full pool every turn.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 05:34 PM

Personally, I'd never fire the first one on FA unless I wanted a broken wrist.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 14 2010, 06:00 PM

Yes it is, but Altmeyer shotgun pistol from the german arsenal isn't

Yes i know that, Warhawk also have +1 to dv and -1 to AP compared to normal heavy pistol.
I was asking whether his player has a pair of those or did he give him revolvers that are 7P and -3AP with normal ammo

Posted by: Semerkhet Sep 14 2010, 06:16 PM

It's got the DV and AP of the Warhawk but I let him geek out and design the pistols to be crafted by his weaponsmith contact.

Posted by: Traul Sep 14 2010, 06:19 PM

Why bother? I can't remember ever firing a single bullet from an automatic weapon, except when it was the only one left.

Posted by: Angelone Sep 14 2010, 06:20 PM

He wanted a pistol theme. I would have suggested a shotgun if he would have said gunslinger.

Any other interesting things in the german arsenal?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 06:57 PM

Too bad it isn't a pistol, even though it is called pistol. It's an exotic ranged weapon and uses that skill.

Put a gas vent on it and there is no recoil. BTW FA also includes three round bursts.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 08:11 PM

FA does not include short bursts (3).

Posted by: Jaid Sep 14 2010, 08:23 PM

1) FA is not 3-round bursts, that's a short burst
2) the gun doesn't have enough bullets in it to use full auto anyways.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 08:29 PM

Anyway, I'd allow a BF revolver. It's not really more unbalanced than anything else, and SS-to-BF uses most of your mod slots.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 14 2010, 08:30 PM

On point 2 - sure it does. Anything less than the minimum required amount for the burst simply subtracts from the DV (or dodge mod)

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 08:32 PM

@1: Yes, it does:

Emphasis and added bullet number mine
The section above is: Burst Fire mode.

@2 With the rules from 1 you need a minimum of 3 (2 actually) bullets to fire in FA. So the Thunderbolt has enough. you can even get it to 2*11. that's even enough for suppressive fire.

@Gas vent: sorry that was nonsense, pistols cannot take them.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 08:43 PM

Weird. You're right, sorry; must be a new change, though. It's silly that you can mod a gun to have FA and *not* BF anyway.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 09:18 PM

It's not, it's been that way at least since 3rd edition. SR4 without the A has the same wording. While there are IRL guns that have SA and FA but not BF, I know of no rule that forbids modding either BF or FA or both.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 09:22 PM

No, I mean that it's silly that you can mod a gun to have SS/FA or SA/FA, etc.; FA without BF. It costs the same in money and slots to get FA, and going from FA to BF is explicitly an option. Weird, because of the costs; while RL guns can indeed be SA/FA, there's no reason to do so in SR4 if FA *includes* BF.

Anyway, for the OP: no RAW or balance reasons to disallow the BF or FA mods on your revolver, whether SS or SA. You'll be using 2/3 of your mod slots, it's F and expensive, and RC is hard to get. *shrug*

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 14 2010, 10:07 PM

Well By RAW the difference between a BF and a FA 3 round burst is that you cannot call a shot in FA, which is silly in its own right. But you're right, BF is basically useless unless there are weapons which can't for whatever reason be upgraded to FA.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 14 2010, 10:10 PM

Yeah, it makes sense for BF-without-FA to exist, but not the other way around. Tell me this, though: do the devs know that FA can fire short bursts? Why have BF/FA LMGs and FA-only MMGs, then? (I'm not talking about miniguns, etc., which have fixed fire rates.)

Anyway. It's funny that you mentioned/de-mentioned Gas Vents, because as we know revolvers in RL certainly can have gas vents. Chalk up another 'realism' difference. If you're only firing short bursts with the revolver, though, you can use Folding Stock, Personalized Grip, and/or the optional STR-to-RC rule. The Underbarrel Weight (mod version only) works by RAW, but it uses both remaining mod slots.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 15 2010, 12:09 AM

Main benefit of BF over FA, for Short or Long Bursts, is the Ability to call a shot (As weird as that is)...

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 15 2010, 12:24 AM

Technically, for many firearms burst fire mechanisms are actually slightly more complicated than full auto.

Burst fire has to have a bit that stops the firing after 3 rounds. Full auto does not.

Also, just because I'm surprised nobody's linked it yet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateba_Autorevolver


-karma

Posted by: Dumori Sep 15 2010, 12:37 AM

Or these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_revolver#Machine_revolvers Not hand guns nut one is three round burst firing AR type weapon. Weather smaller round would be able to work in such mechanisms IDK but its physical possible to make FA/BF revolvers just its not conman as they would be rather niche.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 05:45 AM

Yeah, as I said Tymeaus, I wouldn't allow a Called Shot with a Wide Burst anyway, and the 'loophole' that keeps an FA short burst from being the same as a BF short burst is just that.

Posted by: Mäx Sep 15 2010, 06:15 AM

Maybe its becouse it tooks so much concentration to fire just 3 rounds on full auto, that you dont have enough left to do a called shot

Posted by: Ed_209a Sep 15 2010, 11:06 AM

The trick to that is that you just don't worry about firing exactly 3 rounds. 3-5 rounds is close enough.

What you might do is just say that people with 3 points or more in Automatics (or whatever) just can fire a short burst on full auto, and not worry about it.

Characters with less skill, roll 10 dice, and every hit is a bullet used to get the effect of your 3-round burst.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 15 2010, 11:16 AM

Confused it with a Street Sweeper, damn.

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 15 2010, 12:37 PM

Ruge Maga Warhawk

The Mega Warhawk is a bit of a overmodified monster. The firing mechanism has been changed to a fixed burstfiring mode and all manual parts (exept the loading mechanism) have been removed. The Mega Warhawks deals a hell of a damage but has barely any recoil compensation, plus it has to be reloaded every combat turn. The Mega Warhawk can't be fired without a smartlink. A glitch will cause a malfunction that has to be attended with an armorer (2) skill test.

Mods

Ammo Skip System (1)
Electronic Firing (2)
Trigger Removal (-)
Firing Selection Change to BF (4)
Internal Smartlink (-)

Stats

Damage: 6P
AP: -2
Mode: BF
RC: 1
Ammo: 6 (cy)

Cost: 4.000

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 15 2010, 02:31 PM

Electronic Firing is just so "wimpy". It doesn't seem the right flavor for the gun you're trying to build, Doc. Actually, same goes for Trigger Removal. It seems to me that a character who wanted SOTA BLEEDING EDGE HIGH TECH SHIT would probably not be using a revolver.

Anyway, that certainly is an interesting gun.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 15 2010, 02:33 PM

Well, since silencing revolvers is a pretty expensive business, personalized grip could replace electronic firing, since the two don't stack anyway.

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 15 2010, 03:03 PM

Electronic Firing and Ammo Skip System are more fluff than crunch for a burstfire moded six-gun.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 15 2010, 03:14 PM

Personally, I'd rather have an Increased Cylinder than an ammo skip system. Not worth it IMO on a gun with low ammo capacity.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 15 2010, 03:18 PM

Only in Revolvers does the ammo skip system make sense. When do you need more than two types of ammo in a weapon? Additional clip has the same functionality without wasting ammo.

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 15 2010, 03:22 PM

But what do you do with 8 bullets, if your gun can only fire 3 or 6 at a time? If you reload after 2 short bursts or 1 long burst anyway, you don't need 2 additional bullets.

Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 15 2010, 03:38 PM

Partial Burst Fire. As for ammo, AV rounds will do the trick most of the time.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 03:41 PM

Isn't that 7 out of 6 mod slots anyway?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 15 2010, 03:42 PM

Exactly. Regular/Ex/Ex²/APDS/AV whatever is available against things immune to stun and SnS against the rest. Highly specialized ammo (capsule rounds/lockbreaker shells etc.) can well be carried in a separate magazine

That's why the poster added side effects.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 03:58 PM

Psh. Cheater.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 15 2010, 04:05 PM

Who are you calling a cheater?

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 15 2010, 04:17 PM

Overmodification is subject to gamemaster's approval but not forbidden.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 05:03 PM

I know, but so is having passers-by give you money. I'm just kidding you, it's not like you *need* Ammo Skip or Elec. Firing in the first place. The main idea is a BF revolver, and we all agree that's doable.

Posted by: Machiavelli Sep 15 2010, 05:16 PM

I think you were meant. Go and get him..^^

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 15 2010, 07:23 PM

You don't need Ammo Skip at all according to RAWs but to me it makes perfectly sense. If you want BF on a SA six-gun you need some form of motor for spinning the drum. And with Electronic Firing you don't need another one for moving the hammer as you don't need the hammer at all. In fact Ammo Skip and Electronic Firing should give a discount for the BF mod or come along with it for free.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:27 PM

Haha, careful: logic is a dangerous road. You could also say that you should be required to have Ammo Skip and Electronic Firing before the BF mod is even allowed.

Incidentally, if it can fire long bursts (6), then it's FA, not BF. Same price, so no matter. We were just talking about this, so I mention it.

Posted by: sabs Sep 15 2010, 07:28 PM

Can't you still Short burst with 2 bullets?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 07:31 PM

You can fire a special 'crap I ran out of ammo' burst, yes. You just use the normal rules for +N bullets. By RAW, this only works for 2, 4, and 5; the Full Burst section is mysteriously missing the 'Not Enough Bullets' paragraph. The obvious 'common sense' rule is to also allow bursts of 7, 8, and 9 (as always, only when the ammo remaining is insufficient). If your weapon doesn't have an ammo capacity of at least 10 rounds, I think the RAW says that you're limited to long bursts (6), but you could also allow (house rule) 'full clip' bursts of 7, 8, or 9.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 15 2010, 08:31 PM

The Mateba auto-revolver gets by just fine with the recoil energy to advance each round. It would not take THAT much work to make it full auto.



-karma

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 15 2010, 08:38 PM

Touché.



Long burst are FA? - Damn, right! My mistake. Have to change the description of the Mega Warhawk.



There's still a first bullet and my Mega Warhawk has no trigger. - Wait! Electronic Firng! That's it. - Okay, fine. One could dump the Ammo Skip System.

If you make a revolver FA you get a minigun.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 15 2010, 08:47 PM

That would be a problem - if you had to advance the first round in order to chamber it and make the pistol ready.

Oh, wait, look, revolvers don't have that problem.






Well, it'd look like one, anyhow, even if the mechanics are different.



-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 08:48 PM

Trigger removal just means it fires via command; even with electronic firing, there's no reason the first bullet is a problem.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 15 2010, 08:55 PM

I think he was referring to having to chamber the first round in regular semi-autos.

For revolvers, even automatic ones, this isn't a problem because all the rounds are chambered by default.



-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 08:59 PM

I'm just pointing at the trigger removal (no effect on firing mechanism) and electronic firing (no effect on trigger) have nothing to do with anything.

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 15 2010, 09:07 PM

Damn, I had a little problem with editing the post. The point is: You have to clock the hammer or you can't fire a revolver (in fact any gun at all). Without a trigger you can still do it with your thump if it's a revolver but you can't release the hammer for the first shot. - Unless it's a smartgun. And if you have Electronic Firing you don't need a hammer at all.

Okay, now you have a BF revolver without a trigger and hammer. The first round is fired electronically via smartlink and the recoil spins the drum. - No need for the Armo Skipp System, fine. Only 6 mod slots needed.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 15 2010, 09:10 PM

Huzzah! Except go ahead and make it FA, so you can fire all six when 'needed'. This weapon is hilarious.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Sep 15 2010, 09:21 PM

Wouldn't a burst fire mode on a 6 shooter mean you're out of ammo after 2 'shots?' Great if you hit but it seems very risky.

Posted by: Combat Mage Sep 15 2010, 09:23 PM

Just carry a bunch of them and quick-draw new ones every action phase.

Making them full auto and holding one in each hand means two long bursts each action phase which are more powerful than assault rifles (but with shorter range). Recoil is a problem of course but one could counteract a bit with gyro-stabilization (in cyberhands) and/or a high strength (if the optional rule is used). And it would be pretty bad-ass to fire 6-shot bursts from revolvers.

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 15 2010, 09:25 PM

That's the drawback of DV 8, AP -2.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 15 2010, 10:01 PM

Wow, I never even thought about dual-wielding 2 BF revolvers... I must say I like the idea. My original intent was to have a a variation of the gun adept from the book. 2 Colt Manhunters with all the little tricks as the main weapons and a BurstFire revolver as the "oh-crap" weapon when facing off against some heavily armored Arnie-Awesome cybered troll.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 16 2010, 01:15 AM

Like Lassiter in Riders of the Purple Sage?

RL I owned a Mataba Uniqua, a wonderful semiauto revolver- yeah the sort of gun Togasa used in Ghost in the Shell. The plus side is that is was the most accurate handgun I've ever used and had no appreciable recoil, the mechanism.

The down side it was frakking huge. The guys at the range called it the "Italian monster." It would be hard to conceal. I couldn't see carrying it concealed ever and I have gotten away with a .357 magnum with a 4 inch barrel in a hip hiolster under a long coat. the other problem with them is they had a lot of moving parts. Sure any semi auto will but the revolver adds a whole other set of mechanics instead of just a spring in the mag. Any grit in the weapon would lead to a misfire and jams and this included the stuff it was throwing out itself. I would also get hands that were BLACK from the powder spraying. this is why the Fosberry never really caught on in WW1 when the colt semi did.

So it is big and accurate but finiky. DLN's husband likened it to an expensive mistress. Wonderful to have but frustrating. We both want to know what he is using as a base for that.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 16 2010, 04:12 AM

I like that Hatamoto weapon that fires that 1 shot shotgun round. Maybe I should use that as my take-down weapon. I still like the idea of a burstfire heavy revolver.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 04:21 AM

See, I really dislike that Hatamoto one. Maybe it's just the hideous concept art, or maybe I just can't deal with a single-shot firearm that's not a rocket launcher, but it seems so under-designed. Hell, they could at the very least give it two barrels (like the PJSS). It's not even very cheap!

Hmm. A giant *two* shot 'pistol' might be neat. Granted, that's effectively what the BF-revolver is, but there's a difference in terms of style.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 16 2010, 04:27 AM

Yeah... whoever drew it did make it look like crap. Plus, I agree that if I was going to have some kind of uber-last ditch weapon that had limited ammo, but each shot was a kicker, I should get some kind of double barrel derringer or something that's has 2 mini-missiles or rockets or something. Something that would make the weapon worthwhile to shoot even if it only had 1 - 2 shots.

Hence why I thought of the idea for the burstfire revolver. I'd get 1 or 2 shots off of it, but each 1 would be a tremendous hit and knockdown whatever was charging at me.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 04:30 AM

Indeed. Very stylish. The burst-revolver is nice because you can choose between 3 and 6; the PJSS 2-barrel elephant rifle lets you do the same thing, though. Maybe I'll make an NPC with a distinctive 'double Hatamoto' pistol just for kicks. Players like seeing new things for once.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 16 2010, 05:06 AM

I does make for an awesome stealth weapon with called shot for +4 and twinked for silence. But for every one else to make it worth while you need to buy additional "clip" for it. Extened clip can also be used by raw though some posters emphasise the fact it has clip in the name to say neither can be used on anything bar © weapons. With both in stalled you get 2 shots due to the percentage increase and decrease rounding up. To really make use of that though you need to also add firing mode selection this takes up 4 or you mod slots and gets you a quite decent if pricey take down gun it costs so much that not loading it with ex or ex seams wasteful in my eyes.
The total cost is 2400+how ever you install your smart-link either 200 for an attachment or an extra 800 for having the base gun have one inbuilt from the start. With the remaining 2 slots electronic firing would get rid off recoil with out taking time to pull the stock out allowing you to quick draw and shoot shot once more and flip to barrel 2 in one phase with no penalty. It also let you explane why you are firing two rounds from each barrel.

So for the most twinked Hatamoto for a gunslinger. Would be a 7p DV, -1 AP, SA, 1 RC, 2*2(m), costing 4200 and with a smartlink. You can't fit any more into it but you still have room for all the external attachments aswell. Its pricy but it might be worth it.

Posted by: Doc Byte Sep 16 2010, 12:45 PM

I wonder why nobody ever build a semi-auto gun that packs revolver slugs. Gamebalancing?


Israel Military Industries Sand Hawk

This heir of the famous Desert Eagle earned the titel of the heaviest semi-automatic pistol in the world and is in fact loaded with ammo otherwise found only in revolvers.

Stats

DV: 6
AP: -2
Mode: SA
RC: -
Ammo: 8 ( c )
Cost: 1.000


Okay, that's some kind of potential game-breaker and shows the limitations of SR4 comabt rules.

Posted by: sabs Sep 16 2010, 12:54 PM

Why is it a game breaker?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 01:04 PM

*shrug*

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 16 2010, 01:37 PM

It does more damage than all other semi automatics, can fire two shots per action phase, and has greater ammo capacity and in a detachable magazine than the Warhawk.
I'd have no problem with it, though I'd probably double uncompensated recoil, just to simulate how heavy the round is. I know that coming up with 1 RC isn't difficult.

I find it weirder that a frigging handheld shotgun loaded with slugs does the same damage as a regular heavy pistol.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 01:41 PM

No, it doesn't. It does 7/-1, the same as a shotgun.

Oh, unless you mean the Roomsweeper. AFAIK, the Roomsweeper uses a normal Heavy Pistol 'caliber'; they're not 'shotgun-sized' slugs/shells. It simply has the ability to use Flechette.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 16 2010, 01:44 PM

My SR4A says 5P -1 for slugs and 7P(f) +5 for shot. Has it been changed?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 01:47 PM

Right, what's the problem? 5+2=7.

I'm still assuming you meant the Roomsweeper. Your question makes a little more sense for the Defiance sawed-off shotgun, because it goes from 7P to 5P with the same bullets; still, we know that caliber/charge aren't the only variables, and the sawed-off barrel indeed reduces power. Now, explain how the Hatamoto gets 7P/-1 out of a pistol-sized barrel, while the Defiance *doesn't*.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 16 2010, 02:00 PM

Magic. In this case the Magic of Marketing!

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 16 2010, 02:08 PM

If your character needs something bigger and a more satisfying try a penal implant and sensitive skin. If you want cool go for a superblack hawk.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 16 2010, 02:21 PM

I find it hard to believe that a 18.5 mm ball of metal (12 gauge slug) does the same damage as a 10-12 mm (assumed calibers for heavy pistols) ball.


Yes, I am talking about the roomsweeper. The sawed off defiance is just as weird, and too large with too little ammo on top.

@Triggvi: But it is http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penile implant. A http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penal would probably be a lot less pleasant. I'm thinking about cranial bombs and stuff.

Posted by: Triggvi Sep 16 2010, 02:23 PM

lmao. bad mistype

Posted by: Mäx Sep 16 2010, 02:28 PM

Where do you get idea that roomsweeper uses 12 gauge slug like a full shotgun does, i find it shooting something like 16 gauge round to be much more likely.

Posted by: Doc Chase Sep 16 2010, 02:29 PM

Because 12 gauge is readily available. The other gauges aren't as much in demand.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 16 2010, 02:44 PM

On top of that, the Defiance is just sawed off, I doubt the chamber and barrel were exchanged to create the short version.

According to wikipedia even a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)#Conversion_guide still has a diameter of 16.8 mm.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 07:16 PM

Dakka Dakka, I still doesn't understand your point. :/ Flechette gives +2 DV, +5 Impact. If you start with a Heavy Pistol like the Roomsweeper, that's 5+2=7. If you start with a shotgun that's 7+2=9. They're obviously different, as they should be. What are you concerned about?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 16 2010, 07:27 PM

I'm always looking at the values for firing slugs.

The roomsweeper actually isn't necessarily that weird, it could indeed be a weapon that normally uses shot but has a much smaller bore than normal shotguns.
The sawed off T-250 however should fire the same ammunition as other shotguns from a shorter barrel. This will reduce range and possibly damage potentional of slugs, but I doubt this reduction will be so large that the weapon becomes identical to or even worse than a heavy pistol, depending on the reading of the rules.

Posted by: ZeroPoint Sep 16 2010, 07:28 PM

Hatamoto is not shot. its a slug that does 7p Damage. The defiance shotgun is a slug that does 5P damage. so somehow you have a single shot apparently 12 gauge shotgun pistol that does 7P and a 12 gauge shotgun sawn down to (larger than pistol) size that does 5P... Thats an issue with me. Even if it is completely off topic.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 16 2010, 07:38 PM

Okay, hold up:

Hatamoto: fires a shotgun-class slug; 7P/-1 (=normal slug shotguns).
Roomsweeper: fires heavy pistol slugs, available with Flechette; 5P/-1, or +2 DV/+5 AP for 7P/+5 (no, I dunno where the original -1 goes).
Defiance (full size): shotgun, fires slugs by default; 7P/-1.
Defiance (sawed): as heavy pistol, fires slugs by default; 5P/-1, heavy pistol ranges.

So, once again, huh? The Roomsweeper is a totally normal Heavy Pistol. The Hatamoto is a unique case. The Defiance (full) is a totally normal shotgun. The Defiance (sawed) is a unique case (which gets screwed). I'm the one who brought up the Defiance, so I thought you were talking about the Roomsweeper (which is why I specifically asked).

Posted by: CanRay Sep 17 2010, 12:03 AM

Which is why I'll take a full-length Defiance T-250, modify it for a Folding Shoulder Brace (In fact, I'll take the one from the SPAS-22) and Shorter Barrel. Call it a day.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 17 2010, 01:13 AM

yeah especially when you want to disintergrate small critters and birds. 00 also gets some use

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 01:35 AM

Indeed, CanRay. The kicker is that the Defiance is *from* Arsenal, facrissake. It has the 'sawed-off' mod right there in the book! :/

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Sep 17 2010, 05:31 AM

Mechanically yes, but then I ask why would you buy it? You can get 16 shots in a detachable magazine for 50¥ more and you get a laser sight as extra. Moreover nowhere in the book does it say that shotgun shells are not the same as flechette rounds. So by RAW shotgun shells are just as expensive as flechette. I know I sell shells for the price of regular ammo.
I totally agree. I just think the roomsweeper got screwed as well.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 01:28 PM

*shrug* It's just a pistol that's marketed specifically as able to use Flechette. Shot rounds *are* flechette (with the possibility for variation in style), yes. There are always sub-optimal choices in the list. Honestly, there are only about 2 guns per category that should *ever* be used.

Why should the Roomsweeper get special treatment? I don't understand how it 'got screwed', is all. I mean, you could rule that guns not designed for flechette can't use it, to preserve its uniqueness.

Posted by: Dumori Sep 17 2010, 07:46 PM

For flechette only weapons and shotguns (f) is the same a regular ammo for them in my games.



Flechette and shot have different rules on one point, shot can use different chokes. Your silver gun fire little metal barbs. Your Room Sweeper fires a blast of shot that blast of shot can hit multiple people if your are luck.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 17 2010, 07:52 PM

I personally am puzzled as to why armor designed to resist knives (impact) is also used to resist shotgun blasts.


-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 08:01 PM

I wasn't aware that Flechette and Shot differed (re: choke). I assumed it simply meant that only real shotguns had the option of choke settings, but that they still used Flechette ammo. See SR4A, p154.

The Roomsweeper, then, *isn't* as I described it earlier (normal Heavy Pistol). Instead, it explicitly has access to choke rules, unlike other non-shotguns. That seems fair and functional.

It's my understanding that Flechette can mean anything from single metal 'spikes' to bundles of metal spikes/discs/bits: "Flechette Rounds: Tiny, tightly packed metal slivers function as the business end of a flechette round." The Slivergun indeed seems to fire single slivers instead of shot. In SR4, they all do the same damage, though, and access to choke effects seems to be a function of the gun (=shotgun, specific exceptions like the Roomsweeper), not the ammo.

KarmaInferno, because all shotgun blasts in SR4 *are* Flechette (i.e., 'knives').

Posted by: Dumori Sep 17 2010, 08:22 PM

Well the is it the gun or the ammo issue is in the air but it's kind of both. Flechettes tend to be only one per shot in most normal ammo loads. As when packed as multiple rounds per shot you end up with a shotgun. But this can be a heated issue so lets not get in to it more so seeing that small-arms flechette are designed to defeat body armour but the "smaller size" leads to lesser wounds.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 17 2010, 08:23 PM

Yeah, but the damage characteristics of flechette in general is a lot closer to getting hit with a burst of regular ammo fire than it is to getting sliced with a knife.

Personally, if I was re-writing the rules, I'd have given shot flechette a damage and AP bonus, but have it resisted by Ballistic. Leave Impact armor for melee attack resistance.



-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 17 2010, 08:31 PM

Oh, sure. I'm not trying to defend the realism, just the in-game logic.

Similarly, Dumori, I'm only talking about how Flechette works in-game: it's defined as a bunch of tiny bits, except for specific weapons (Slivergun). Choke rules only apply to shotguns, except for specific weapons (Roomsweeper). Shotguns fire Flechette (tiny bits), and that's it (except for the Street Sweeper, of course).