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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Can the spell control thought effect spirits?

Posted by: Mardegun Mar 19 2004, 02:53 PM

My first thought is that control thoughts doesn't work against spirits, but what about when they are materialized? On the other hand I am pretty sure I would allow control thoughts to effect critters, paranormal or otherwise.

Do you guys think it would be possible to create a control spirits thoughts spell?

Here is another question, can someone effected by control thoughts be made to accept a spell that requires voluntary targets? For example, what about using mink link on someone who thoughts are controlled? This combo would allow the mage to control the person from a distance, but still have the advantage being present when the target resists

Posted by: Backgammon Mar 19 2004, 03:02 PM

Isn't there a control animal spell?

As for spirits, I vote a definitive no. They don't have minds to control. Although it could be argued that a mana spell affects mana creatures, I just think spirits are fundamentally different and cannot be mind controlled. That's my opinion, anyway.

Using control to make voluntary: touchy... I'd go with no if the victim would normally resist the spell. If he's involuntary, but doesn't really care, then maybe.

Posted by: Neon Tiger Mar 19 2004, 03:19 PM

I'd say yes to making someone a willing target for spells with Control Thoughts.

I wish not to add another thread to boards, so I'll also ask about the Control type spells. Could you use Control Thoughts/Actions on someone and then make them kill themselves? Slitting wrists or shooting themselves to head with a pistol?

And does someone who is being controlled by Control Actions use their own skills or the casters skills?

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime Mar 19 2004, 03:46 PM

Of course Control Thoughts would work on a spirit. They've been given a mind and the ability to think by their conjurer, so it can be manipulated as well as any other aspect of a spirit can. The only problem is that it would only work on the plane that the spell was cast, so if you use it on a materialized spirit, it will only control them for as long as you keep them materialized. The moment they go astral, poof goes the spell.

Posted by: Zazen Mar 19 2004, 05:51 PM

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)

The only problem is that it would only work on the plane that the spell was cast, so if you use it on a materialized spirit, it will only control them for as long as you keep them materialized. The moment they go astral, poof goes the spell.

Saying that spells are cast only on one plane or another is a sketchy interpretation that is never mentioned in the books. It also leads to some bizarre situations.

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime Mar 19 2004, 05:56 PM

QUOTE

Saying that spells are cast only on one plane or another is a sketchy interpretation that is never mentioned in the books.

It's the very first sentence of the very first paragraph on the rules for Spell Targeting in the core rules on page 181. I don't see how that makes it a sketchy interpretation or one that's never mentioned in the books.

Posted by: Zazen Mar 19 2004, 06:05 PM

That's not what it says at all, but I have no desire to drag out this old debate.

Mardegun, just keep in mind that there are several viewpoints to choose from. Not everyone agrees on the finer points of magic.

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime Mar 19 2004, 06:11 PM

Uhm, okay. Whatever.

Posted by: Zazen Mar 19 2004, 06:30 PM

Welcome back, btw

Posted by: Mardegun Mar 19 2004, 07:29 PM

Could a mage use control thoughts to have someone kill themselves? why not? The person would get to resist, but in the end I doubt they would have any chance.

[edit] Zazen, thanks. It looks like people opinion really do vary on this subject. [/edit]

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Mar 19 2004, 07:38 PM

Ok I'll bite and make your hair go grey... you know that "old debate" you don't wanna drag back out? I'm intrigued!!

Wanna cast a spell on someone in the physical world, you need to be in the physical world as well. Wanna cast a spell on something astral, you need to be astral.

Where's the confusion?

Kong

Posted by: spotlite Mar 19 2004, 07:42 PM

I think there's something in the official FAQ about it affecting critters fine. I think it would definately work on spirits, and as its a mana spell I think it would follow them to astral space just like any other sustained spell goes with an astrally projecting mage, whether he cast it himself or not. I'll check the spell targetting rules but I get the feeling I don't wanna go there.

I think you could command them to accept a spell as well, no trouble. That's how the Queen Bug spirits get willing volunteers - they use compulsion to make them want it (sorry, that's a bit of 1st and 2nd ed creeping in there. Voluntary subjects usually resulted in Good Merges, which is why they had the whole cult thing going on, the victims wanted it. I digress).

I beleive the subject of your last question is actually covered in the spell description. Is it something the subject would be strongly opposed to? Then they get another resistance check at that point, I think.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Mar 19 2004, 07:45 PM

If you need line of sight, and the target goes fully astral, you need to be astrally percieving before that happens or the spell link is broken.

Posted by: spotlite Mar 19 2004, 07:51 PM

only for the actual casting, surely? Nowhere under spell sustaining does it say you have to maintain line of sight. I suspect this is what the 'old debate' was. It doesn't mention this specific circumstance and I don't think there's a definitive answer. I'm going to agree to disagree as well.

Posted by: Dax Mar 19 2004, 07:58 PM

QUOTE (Mardegun)

I run those kind of situations the same way I run Charm magic in D&D. Low force Control Thoughts Spells (like anywhere within the range of 1-5) can not be used to force someone to kill themselves, period. High Force Control THoughts Spells (in the range of 6 and up) can be used to give that command to the subject, but then the subject gets to make an immediate resistance test with a +1 bonus to whatever they roll.

Without that, Control Thoughts and other such spells become far too powerful in my opinion. A general rule of thumb to use, is that if the actions are life threatening or generally harmful to the person being controlled, they get to make a new resistance test.

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime Mar 19 2004, 08:02 PM

Spells aren't dual-natured or capable of astrally projecting or materializing. Sustained or not, a spell cast on the material world only affects the material world, while a spell cast on the astral plane only affects the astral plane. I don't know of anything in the rules that either suggests otherwise or demonstrates anything to the contrary. Even dual-natured characters existing simultaneously on both planes have to choose one plane or the other when casting a spell.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Mar 19 2004, 08:41 PM

QUOTE (spotlite @ Mar 19 2004, 02:51 PM)

Nowhere under spell sustaining does it say you have to maintain line of sight.

Great, now I need to try to find out if that was a an earlier edition rule or just a bad misreading from those early games.

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Mar 19 2004, 08:46 PM

Gotta say, I'm with Clockwork here... where is the confusion?

Kong

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Mar 19 2004, 08:49 PM

There is some related to the spell "mana static" according to some gamers.

Posted by: Lilt Mar 19 2004, 11:05 PM

Yes, I'd say that control thoughts can affect spirits. If one combat spell can affect both spirits and humans then why not control manipulations?

This has come-up in the past in my games, and I said it did work. I did, however, also rule that the spirit's master could become aware through the magical bond (given a successful perception test against an arbitrary target number) but that's another matter entierly.

Posted by: Mardegun Mar 20 2004, 03:58 AM

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)

Spells aren't dual-natured ...

Not true, astral barriers are dual, because they effect both astral and physical spells.

Now in regards to whether control thoughts would work on a spirit that materialize or not, I would say the spell still works. After all the conscious of the entity hasn't changed.

So do most people agree that control thoughts combine with mink link would work?

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Mar 20 2004, 04:57 AM

Well for starters: Astral barriers are NOT dual. You cannot cast it in physical space as it has no effect. To quote p 198 of the main book, last paragraph of the spell description:

Astral barrier functions the same as Physical barrier, except on the astral plane. Astral barrier is not a dual barrier and does not work on the physical plane.

Mana static creates a background count and is therefore the exception that proves the rule. =) Background counts have their own rules and the spell creates a background count. It is as far as I know, the ONLY spell that is cast on the physical plane and has it's effects felt in astral space.

Other spells have their own problems. Consider Astral armor or astral barrier. No provisions were made for the fact that since they can only be cast in astral space, their drain is effectively physical unless one is dual, since as we know, all spells cast while projecting have physical drain. So the best bet is to use The Sight and cast those spells, allowing you the luxury of standard drain.

So what else is confusing? Hit me!

Kong

Posted by: toturi Mar 20 2004, 06:01 AM

QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer)

So what else is confusing? Hit me!

Kong

Punches Sunday Gamer.

You did ask for it.

Posted by: Lilt Mar 20 2004, 10:41 AM

I don't think mindlink would really allow the target to be mage to be 'present'... I'm sure CT could be used to make someone accept a spell, but allowing the mage to be effectively 'present' depends how I'm feeling that day.

Posted by: Darkest Angel Mar 20 2004, 10:57 AM

Spell wall and spell shield, there's your other spells that have an effect on both planes at once.

The way I see it is, it's magic, if it's meant to have effect 'a' it has effect 'a', doesn't matter what plane your on. If you cast control thoughts on a spirit, you keep it cast as long as you sustain it, same as any other spell. LOS never comes into it with other sustained spells, why should it make a difference between planes? Especially when you can cast a spell into a sustaining focus, project yourself and take said focus and spell with you, the only stipulation on whether the spell had an effect or not would depend on whether it was a mana or physical spell, physical spells by their nature don't have any effect on the astral. NB no effect is not the same as cannot be cast/sustained or otherwise exist.

As for control thoughts being used to induce suicide/put the target in danger: The rules are in the book, you get another resistance test iirc it's easier if the target is out of LOS.

Posted by: Zazen Mar 20 2004, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer)

Ok I'll bite and make your hair go grey... you know that "old debate" you don't wanna drag back out? I'm intrigued!!

You're an evil, evil man.

QUOTE

Wanna cast a spell on someone in the physical world, you need to be in the physical world as well. Wanna cast a spell on something astral, you need to be astral.

Where's the confusion?

Well, lets say you're astrally perceiving and you want to kill an astral spirit and a kitten. The spell targeting rules have no problem with you nailing them both with a manaball, but some say that the spell has to be confined to one plane or another (adding a "choose desired plane" step to the spellcasting process).

Of course, some might say that this step is a silently implied part of the rules. I'd rather chew through my own intestines than re-debate it.

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime Mar 20 2004, 04:54 PM

The only people who say that an astrally projecting mage can kill a kitten on the material plane with a manaball are those who don't know the rules very well. Astrally projecting characters cannot affect the mundane characters with their spells unless they, too, are dual-natured or astrally perceiving.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Mar 20 2004, 04:58 PM

QUOTE (Zazen)

Well, lets say you're astrally perceiving [...]

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)

Astrally projecting characters cannot affect the mundane characters with their spells unless they, too, are dual-natured or astrally perceiving.

So you agree, then?

Posted by: Zazen Mar 20 2004, 04:59 PM

One of the main reasons I'd rather chew out my own intestines.

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime Mar 20 2004, 05:01 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 20 2004, 10:58 AM)

QUOTE (Zazen)

Well, lets say you're astrally perceiving [...]

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)

Astrally projecting characters cannot affect the mundane characters with their spells unless they, too, are dual-natured or astrally perceiving.

So you agree, then?

Once again, astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters have to choose which plane they are casting the spell on. You cannot affect both simultaneously with the same spell, as previously mentioned and as clearly stated in the rules.

If the TARGET is dual-natured or astrally perceiving and you cast a manaball spell on the astral plane, then yes, it affects them because they're astrally present. Which is exactly what I just said. If a kitten is just sitting around next to said character, it's going to be UNaffected by the spell because it is NOT astrally present, even if the spellcaster can see it's aura.

Zazen's comment of "some say that the spell has to be confined to one plane or another (adding a 'choose desired plane' step to the spellcasting process)" is a core, fundamental rule of magic dictated in the very first sentence of the very first paragraph of spell targeting. No one is adding it. It's there.

Posted by: Zazen Mar 20 2004, 05:15 PM

If anyone is interested the last issue of Playboy (March 04) has a nice short story by Chuck Palahniuk (author of Fight Club, Lullaby, Survivor, and others). The spoiler below gives away the ending.

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime Mar 20 2004, 05:22 PM

You should consider such things before you bring it up repeatedly in the same topic then, neh?

Posted by: Zazen Mar 20 2004, 05:37 PM

Should I engage in a long, bloody, fruitless debate on the subject of intestine-chewing as well, simply because I've mentioned it?

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Mar 20 2004, 07:31 PM

Well you're right, I am evil, thanks for noticing. =)

I can see why there might be some confusion regarding spell shield and spell wall, 2 other spells which sit snugly on "the line" in this debate. However it only really matters when the caster is dual and even then I make him choose. Why? Because if he anchors his spell in physical space, standard drain, if he anchors it in astral space, physical drain.

Besides, if I'm in the physical world I don't need to protect myself from astral people casting spells, they can't affect me anyways right?

The only real "debate" is what happens to astral based sorceries when the caster is dual. I think that's more the core of the debate. I just have the caster chose a side, he's got one foot in each, he decided. What he can't do is choose both, he can't kill the spirit AND the kitten in one spell.

I would kill the kitten, if that Kitten gets an action, it's ALL over.

Kong

Posted by: Apathy Mar 20 2004, 08:02 PM

QUOTE

if he anchors his spell in physical space, standard drain, if he anchors it in astral space, physical drain

I thought an astrally percieving (but not projecting) character could cast spells in astral while taking only stun? Is this wrong?

Posted by: Zazen Mar 20 2004, 08:23 PM

There are some things which should be clarified

QUOTE

Because if he anchors his spell in physical space, standard drain, if he anchors it in astral space, physical drain.

Physical drain occurs for projecting spellcasters, not percieving ones. "Choose desired plane" would have no effect on drain.

QUOTE

Besides, if I'm in the physical world I don't need to protect myself from astral people casting spells, they can't affect me anyways right?

If you are astrally percieving then you are present in the astral plane and can be affected by its denizens. I think that's what you're talking about here, a dual caster.

QUOTE

The only real "debate" is what happens to astral based sorceries when the caster is dual. I think that's more the core of the debate. I just have the caster chose a side, he's got one foot in each, he decided. What he can't do is choose both, he can't kill the spirit AND the kitten in one spell.

Yeah, that's the debate, which I'm not touching. It suffices to say that good arguments against "choose desired plane" have been put forth in other threads.

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Mar 20 2004, 09:36 PM

True enough.

We've always made it that if you're dual, you can choose which "plane" you're casting on and if you're casting on the astral, use the same drain rules as if you were projecting. The mention that projecting casters drain is always physical is what we use for this, the projecting caster has no choice, he MUST cast his spells on the astral, the dual character has a choice, but we've always ruled that if he chooses to cast his spell on the astral, then he must deal with the drain rules for casting on the astral, which are that he must face physical drain.

It does however seem that much of this is our own interpretation of the rules, clearing up grey areas. I do however now undestand why Zaz might get grey hairs from all this. =)

Just seemed yo us the "natural" way to handle it.

They say when you cast a spell you channel the mana through yourself, hence drain. Stood to reason, least for us (me and my friends) that as such, if you choose to cast on the astral while dual, you are channeling the mana through your astral presence and as such, must face physical drain.

In short, although this is a matter of contention which can definitely be termed a "grey" area in the rules, we all saw it the same way, ruled it made sense and was fair and never looked back.

The important thing to remember however is that astral creatures cannot under any circumstance use their powers (spells or otherwise) on the physical plane without setting a foot into said plane.

So although I'm completely clear on how we handle these rules, I understand why others might see things differently. I don't agree with them but I understand why they might see things that way.

Kong.

Posted by: OurTeam Mar 20 2004, 10:06 PM

In our campaign, a spellcaster who is astrally perceiving would take Stun drain (unless the Force of the spell were too high, of course) if he cast a spell on the Astral Plane. It's a simple interpretation based on what appears to us to be clear wording (compared to other things).

Posted by: Bodak Mar 25 2004, 10:44 PM

Initally I would say that controlling a Spirit is the purpose of Conjuring/Controlling, but looking at MitS and SR3 shows:

QUOTE (MitS p47 Spell Design: Limits of Sorcery)

Sorcery cannot summon or banish spirits; these abilities are the province of the art of conjuring.

QUOTE (MitS p49 Mana spells:)

only affect the mind or spirit of a target, or magical energies.

QUOTE (SR3 p196 Control Thoughs {M @ W,S,LOS,+1(S)})

The caster seizes control of the target's mind, directing everything the target does. The caster can mentally give commands as a Simple Action and the target is compelled to obey.

So it would look like you can affect a Spirit with Control Thoughts, although I am not keen on Sorcery duping Conjuring effects. What's to stop a shaman summonning a really high power Spirit (esp with Invoking so it will stay with her) with only one service, then Control Thoughts-ing it to get unlimited services until dawn?

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Mar 25 2004, 11:52 PM

QUOTE (Bodak)

What's to stop a shaman summonning a really high power Spirit (esp with Invoking so it will stay with her) with only one service, then Control Thoughts-ing it to get unlimited services until dawn?

1) GM hitting the player with a blunt object

2) the TN for control thoughts will be (spirit's Force) and the threshhold will be (half spirit's force) making it very difficult

3) angry spirits don't serve well and will actively seek out ways to injure the shaman

4) only the cruelest of totems would permit this, most totems are opposed to spirit abuse

Posted by: mfb Mar 26 2004, 12:36 AM

in other words, "nothing, really". personally, i'd rule that the bond of summoning overrules the control thoughts spell. free spirits would be game, but not summoned spirits.

Posted by: A Clockwork Lime Mar 26 2004, 01:41 AM

"Nothing really" except a good GM. If you're ignoring the roleplaying aspects of playing a shaman just because you can, and the GM doesn't step in and force you to deal with the consequences, you might as well be playing a video game instead of a roleplaying game.

Hermetic mages and elementals are a different matter entirely, and I have see no problem with a hermetic magician doing that. The elemental will still disappear after 24 hours of service per initial summoning, and honestly, I've never liked the ideas of services to begin with. I'd have preferred conjuring rules where your successes determined how strong your summoned spirit was (much like how the rules for Greater Spirits work in relation to Initiate Grades) and they served you for a given amount of time before you had to perform another ritual of summoning... but that's another discussion entirely.

Posted by: Bodak Mar 26 2004, 02:09 AM

QUOTE (MitS p101 Characteristics Of Watchers)

Watchers can be banished normally and engaged in astral combat. A watcher is bound tightly to its summoner and another magician cannot take control of it.

I wonder if a shaman / mage could use Control Thoughts to take control of another shaman / mage 's feeble little Watcher?

and use it for his own ends? Such as relaying a false message back to its master and then expiring?

Posted by: Kanada Ten Mar 26 2004, 02:30 AM

Obviously, any service performed under the spell's power still counts as a service. Once all the services are rendered the spirit disappears regardless of any spell binding it.

Posted by: Bodak Mar 29 2004, 06:20 AM

Do Watchers have service counts? I thought they just had lifespan from your successes rolled. In which case as long as they still have lifespan, you could program them a false message to return to their summonner with, and send them packing.

Posted by: Mardegun Mar 29 2004, 01:18 PM

Whoa, somehow I haven't look at this thread in a long time. I see have some things to respond to.

Sunday_Gamer

QUOTE

Sorry Sunday_Gamer you are wrong for several reasons.
1) The description of the spell that you listed, has nothing to do with the casting of the spell one plane or the other The description you listed refers to the physical effects of the astral barrier.
2) Astral barriers ARE dual ... however in different ways. Astral barrier do effect spells purely on the physical plane. The first two sentences of description of astral barriers on page 174 SR3 states:

"Magic can create barriers on the astral plane. Such barriers are in fact dual-natured, having both a physical and astral component,"

Note: I am assuming that it doesn't matter how the astral barrier is created.

Confused yet? If so read my understanding of the 'conflict' between the descriptions of the spell and astral barriers.

The use of the word dual have two separate meanings. The use of the word dual in the description of the spell, states that an astral barrier is not also a physical barrier, i.e. on the physical plane. This was important to state, because some spells have alter forms. The second form often does the first, plus something extra. For example invisibility and improved invisibility, or mask and physical mask. Why someone would pick the first version, I doubt know, but that is an entirely different discussion.

Now back to use of the word 'dual'
The word dual in the description of astral barriers refers to the fact that astral barriers effect spells casted on the physical plane. It states on page 174, in the description of astral barriers

"Spells casted through a barrier at a target on the other side add the force to the target number of the spell. This is true for both physical and astral planes."

Now one thing I didn't think of was that the mage casting astral barrier has to be astral perceiving or projecting. Since the description of the spell didn't say this, I assumed the caster didn't have to, because astral barriers are dual-natured. I could easily see requiring the caster to be astrally present, but then again if the barrier is dual-nature, then why should they?

Now in regards to sustaining a spell that is active in one plane, while the caster is on other. I would say that is ok, as long as the casters was in the correct plane at the time of casting the spell.

Posted by: Lilt Mar 29 2004, 01:19 PM

I too would say that a spirit who has had its number of services used-up will return to its home plane even if it is being affected by control thoughts.

As for similar questions: Do Alter Memory and Mind Probe work on Spirits? IE: You see the watcher following you, you mind-probe it to find-out its purpose, then you alter-memories/control-thoughts it to make it forget to return to its master.

Posted by: Mardegun Mar 29 2004, 04:15 PM

Now back to the original question of the thread, here is an idea ...

Control thoughts would have similar effects to spirit affinity edge, but more powerful. Spirit affinity does the following for a specific type of spirit

1) The spirit will do small favors.
2) If the spirit is ordered to attack the person with the edge, it will use non-lethal methods.

The above isn't exactly the words, but they are close. In any case here is my suggestions on how control thoughts would work on a spirit

1) The spirit will do as many favors for the controller as they have net success, or remaining services, whichever is less. After that the spirit will resist every order given until it breaks free. Note control thoughts does not allow the caster to know what the spirit has been ordered previous to the controlling or how many services it has left.

2) The summoner of the spirit can still order the spirit, but doesn't know that the spirit is being controlled, unless he/she noticed the spell being casted. (Is this too unbalancing?)

3) If the spirit is ordered to attack the caster of the control thoughts spell. The caster can use a simple action to order the spirit to use non-lethal attacks. Alternatively the caster could counter the attack order, but this would use up another service. Again any command the caster of control thoughts gives, is considered a service.

Note than when all services are used, the caster can force the spirit to stay, but the spirit will resist per standard rules. However any mage that forces a spirit to stay, risks receiving the spirit bane flaw. To determine if this flaw is gained use the follow equation

Target number = (force of spirit)-(force of spell)+ (every command given pass the services); if tn<0, tn = 2

The caster uses their sorcery skill and if no success are gained, the caster knows has the spirit bane flaw towards the offended spirit type. A flaw gained in this manner doesn't not allow the character to receive edge points. Also any time in the future if the caster tries to control a spirit of the type from the flaw. The spirit will resist every command, even if the spirit has services left.

Posted by: Lilt Mar 29 2004, 05:07 PM

I think you're chucking too much system at it. There are also some possibilities you may not have ethought of:

The Conjuror can simply dismiss the controlled spirit, meaning the spirit departs to the metaplanes.

The Conjuror could also send the spirit to the metaplanes and back as a service as per P98, MitS, which would presumably end the spell (and heal the spirit as it's supposed to).

Control thoughts quite strictly allows you to command the target as a simple action. If the spirit loved the spellcaster (as with control emotions) I believe it would act a bit like industrial-strength spirit affinity, Control thoughts works differently.

Once the spirit has performed enough services, based on the original summoning roll, it will may just depart to the metaplanes anyway feeling that its work is done.

Automatically applying a flaw based on a formula strikes me as wrong. Why not just apply it automatically for mannabolting a spirit or fighting it in astral combat?

Posted by: Mardegun Mar 29 2004, 06:49 PM

Lilt:

QUOTE

I think you're chucking too much system at it.

Theses are just ideas, not rules. If this situation comes up, what are you going to do? I am merely suggesting a possible way of dealing with it, that goes along with the reset of the rules.

QUOTE

The Conjuror can simply dismiss the controlled spirit, meaning the spirit departs to the metaplanes.

Actually I did think of this, but forgot to mention it. Again this is just an idea and not perfect. Personally I would say that the summoner can dismiss the spirit and the caster of the spell can't do anything about it. After all the caster doesn't know what the summoner is doing. By the time the caster know what is going on, the spirit is gone.

Now if you ask yourself, why doesn't the summoner just make the spirit depart? If the summoner doesn't know that the spirit is controlled, than the situation isn't that simple. In the obvious case that the spirit isn't doing what it is told, then yeah the summoner says "bye, bye".

QUOTE

Control thoughts quite strictly allows you to command the target as a simple action. If the spirit loved the spellcaster (as with control emotions) I believe it would act a bit like industrial-strength spirit affinity, Control thoughts works differently.

I see where you are coming from, but what do you suggest then?

QUOTE

Once the spirit has performed enough services, based on the original summoning roll, it will may just depart to the metaplanes anyway feeling that its work is done.

Wasn't I clear with this situation?

QUOTE

Automatically applying a flaw based on a formula strikes me as wrong. Why not just apply it automatically for mannabolting a spirit or fighting it in astral combat?

There is nothing automatic about it and there is a HUGE difference between fighting a spirit, and controlling it's thoughts. Wouldn't you be a little more pissed if someone was messing with your mind, then fighting you?

Besides the caster of the spell is consciously forcing the spirit to stay around, which it doesn't want to do. Personally I see adding a flaw is justice for abusing a spirit. The caster is clearly abusing the spirit/summoner relationship.

Also keep in mind that if the spirit is fighting the caster on every command, it should be obvious to the caster that the spirits services are up. All in all adding a flaw to a character that is doing something wrong is an extension of the role-play experience.

If role-playing is the focus for your group, characters should have to deal with their actions.

In any case I think you are right that once a spirits services are up, it is gone. So it would be best to ignore the last part of my post.

Posted by: tisoz Jun 12 2004, 11:49 PM

QUOTE

I too would say that a spirit who has had its number of services used-up will return to its home plane even if it is being affected by control thoughts.

Say an elemental has been bound to patrol an area for a year. A projecting mage wants into the patrolled area. He casts Control Actions or CT and orders the elemental to do stuff until its services are used up and the spirit departs.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 13 2004, 12:31 AM

I would rule that will not work. The elemental is magically bound, he may WANT to do other things, he may have the urge to do other things, he may have thoughts about other things, but he cannot do other things. He literally has to obey his service until it's done. In that instance that the elemental is thinking is irrelevant, he's bound to complete his task and can do nothing else. I would say that is the case for all bound elemetals. Freee spirits are another matter.

Posted by: Cain Jun 13 2004, 02:25 AM

QUOTE

Wouldn't work. The spirit doesn't owe anyone any services; it's simply bound to a task. Since it's not bound to you, it doesn't count against a mage's limit, and it can't provide things like Aid Sorcery. You'd need to bind it via conjuring again. (Which is one very evil way of keeping high-force elementals for cheap-- summon one, use up all but one of its services, then bind it to a place for 364 days. Then, come back, capture it with conjuring again, and rebind it.)

Posted by: Glyph Jun 13 2004, 03:39 PM

A shaman using Control Thoughts on a spirit that he has summoned would be messing around with his Totem, and would probably, at the least, lose a Magic point and have to perform some kind of atonement or quest to get it back.

A hermetic trying such a stunt would make little sense, since it is easier to merely do another conjuring test to extend its services (under EXTENDING ELEMENTAL SERVICES, pg. 98 of MITS).

Control Thoughts is actually a poor spell to try and sustain with a focus. Any time you are not there, the spirit only needs a single success to break free (Mindlink may let you control a spirit out of LOS as if you were present, but only up to the range of the spell).

That's assuming you allow such a spell to work on a spirit at all. Free spirits are on thing, but summoned spirits may or may not have free will in the first place - they are bound to obey their summoners, and their "thoughts" may have little to do with it. I would probably use this rationale to restrict control thoughts to things like free spirits. I don't like sorcery cutting into conjuring territory, and I don't like the prospect of a hermetic sorcerer being able to command a nature spirit (or a shaman command an elemental).

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 13 2004, 03:53 PM

I was under the impression that extending an elemental's services would require another ritual, which would mean that the mage needs to invest both time and - a lot more of an investment than casting "Control Thoughts", it seems.

Can somebody confirm this, or am I reading the rules wrong?

Posted by: Aesir Jun 13 2004, 03:59 PM

I´d allow for a magican to try and use Control Thoughts on a spirit, but with a much higher TN due to them being different from metahumans in the very core of their being. However if the spirit is in the service of another magican, I think a standard Control Contest should be made.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 13 2004, 05:16 PM

QUOTE (Omega Skip)

I was under the impression that extending an elemental's services would require another ritual, which would mean that the mage needs to invest both time and

- a lot more of an investment than casting "Control Thoughts", it seems.

Can somebody confirm this, or am I reading the rules wrong?

You need a hermetic circle and a ritual, but I don't think you need the elemental summoning materials. If you did, there would be absolutely no point to the new rule whatsoever, since that would make it completely the same, cost-wise and mechanics-wise, as conjuring a brand-new elemental. So what would the point be? The rule is vaguely written, but I think that it is implied that the caster doesn't need the raw materials again.

Posted by: Zazen Jun 13 2004, 06:27 PM

QUOTE (Glyph)

Nah, with this rule you keep the services the old one had. You can build up an elemental that owes you tons of services. It's not the same.

Posted by: tisoz Jun 13 2004, 08:01 PM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 13 2004, 09:39 AM)

How does ordering around a spirit or even abusing a spirit (as everyone wants to conclude) conflict with totem ideals? Which ideal? Which totem? Surely not all of them.

QUOTE

A hermetic trying such a stunt would make little sense, since it is easier to merely do another conjuring test to extend its services (under EXTENDING ELEMENTAL SERVICES, pg. 98 of MITS).

I think people missed the point.

This wasn't the summoner using CT. It was an intruding magician using it to get around the atral security. Since the spirit hasn't been disrupted or killed, the summoner wouldn't know the spirit wasn't doing its job.

QUOTE

It says they go through a new summoning ritual. IMO that means more materials. It does give a benefit over summoning a new spirit in some cases.

The spirit could be familiar with the task, situation or people.

The mage could be at his limit of spirits and cannot conjure additional spirits. However, he is beginning a project/run and some of his spirits are down to one service. He would like to have more services, but doesn't want to lose the service owed by dismissing the spirit and conjuring a new one.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jun 14 2004, 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Zazen)

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime @ Mar 19 2004, 10:46 AM)

Saying that spells are cast only on one plane or another is a sketchy interpretation that is never mentioned in the books. It also leads to some bizarre situations.

So what if it was cated by a Dual Natured being? than it would work i'd say.
Stupid what if's.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 14 2004, 03:52 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)

QUOTE (Zazen @ Mar 19 2004, 05:51 PM)

QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime @ Mar 19 2004, 10:46 AM)

Saying that spells are cast only on one plane or another is a sketchy interpretation that is never mentioned in the books. It also leads to some bizarre situations.

So what if it was cated by a Dual Natured being? than it would work i'd say.
Stupid what if's.

Doesn't matter, he still has to choose what plane the spell was cast on.

Posted by: Zazen Jun 15 2004, 02:30 AM

If you play that way

Posted by: Cain Jun 15 2004, 05:04 AM

Even if you do, does it say anywhere in the rules that a sustained spell is broken if the target changes planes? Can a mage escape a Control spell by going astral?