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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Corporate War without The Corporate Court getting involved
Posted by: TheWanderingJewels Feb 8 2011, 12:28 AM
I've been tossing this idea around a bit for several years and taking a bit of inspiration from RTGs Stormfront Series, a question suddenly came to me: If negotiations failed between two of the Big Ten, what would the reprecussions be for the SR world as the Corps are form more actual nation state like than in Cyberpunk.
Let's toss a Theoretical out the door here and say the Two Big boys on the Block, Namely Sader-Krupp and Aztecnology decide to go at it Hammer and Claw and to hell with the Corporate Court.
What sort of thing would precipiate this and what would the possible results be?
Posted by: Udoshi Feb 8 2011, 12:55 AM
Well, i'm pretty sure the OTHER big ten corporations would smell blood in the water, and do everything in their power to snatch opportunties and hamstring BOTH sides equally well.
I don't know enough about the politics of the fourth world to safely say what all the various factions would do; in general.
THORs are a big issue. The court would probably just put the safeties on all of theirs, lest political maneuvering and favor-calling let one side call in an omega order on the other.
On the flip side, it could very easily lead to the same court going 'hey. stop disturbing the profits for the quarter. OR ELSE.'
I think everyone - especially the civilians that live on both corponations - will be shitting bricks when SK and Aztech ignore everyone telling them to back off.
Also: What does lofwyr stand to gain by doing this? He's a -dragon-. He'll be spinning this entire situation like mad to his advantage.
Posted by: TheWanderingJewels Feb 8 2011, 05:59 AM
Given Aztlan's general jerkass behavior (by even shadowrun corporate standards, most of which seem to have the Ethics of the Umbrella Corporation) the Azzies haven't exactly endeared themselves to many around the planet. And given that they effectively have a dual tax base to throw around when doing the Dirty (Corporate and national (Aztlan)) to most others, most other corporations are probably thinking that they need to be taken down yet another peg. While the Corporate Court tries to be Neutral, Given Aztlan's expansionist tendencies (read: Aztechnology's), there are going to be enough corporate interests that might look the other way while SK, Allied Corporations, and it's proxies (The CAS, Carib League, Amazonia, drekceteras) set up strikes against the Azzie early warning systems.
I could see a lot of runs along the CAS and PCC borders into Aztlan to neutralize Azzie radar systems and other sensors. They'd probably use those with a axe to grind Like the Sons of the Alamo and Native groups that don't think much of the Blood Priesthood to the south in Mexico City. not to mention Local troopers probably not to happy with high command. Given the use of the various warrior orders that probably double as political officers, there is probably grumbling in the ranks.
Allied corps might include: Lone Star (texan, so natch), Evo (as Aztechnology's political structure is....regressive to say the least), and oddly Horizon (probably one of the few places you'd see them and S-K draw a truce), simply because Aztlan is within striking distance of it's home office.
And to bring this thought up again, given the rather bloody handed nature of the Smoking Mirror faction of the priesthood and the general crapsack world that Shadowrun tends to be here is a pertinant question: how does Aztlan deal with it's homeless problem? Or violent criminals? Or certain rebellious sections of Aztlan?
Do they have much of a homeless problem? Aztlan and Aztechnology might use it as PR stating that Aztlan has near full employment and that is why you don't see many homeless?
But that could be a cover. Given the level of power all of the places of power within Aztlan have and have been noted by shadowrunners as only getting stronger, there is a very real possibility that the Smoking Mirror faction has a LOT more influence than most shadowrunners (and everyone else who know) want to think. And it might also account for Aztlan's expansionism.
They are running out of surplus population that no one cares about and questions may arise if locals who are cared about start going missing. The Beast must be fed, and the Smoking mirror isn't going to take no for an answer.
With all this going on, Lofwyr, being in the top slot, while a calculating dragon and ruthless corp, isn't probably going to allow Aztlan to get much bigger as it will threaten his interests (primary concern), and probably spark a war on the continent (while in short it will be profitable, over the long run, probably not a good idea). And so, Taking Aztlan down several pegs by any means necessary, even going as far as to ignore the Corporate Court, suddenly becomes very real possibility. He's also going to realize that Azzie blood magic is only going to cause him problems sooner or later. So best to nip it in the bud early on while he has the upper talon
Posted by: Dahrken Feb 8 2011, 06:52 AM
My take on this would be that S-K falsl back on pre-arranged defensive positions, letting Aztechnology score several high-visibility (but not really harmful) successes and then comes back with an Omega order and the support of the rest of the CC to kick them down for good. I also strongly doubt that Aztechnology would jump that way. Loook at the trouble they had in Yucatan, the mess they are in with Amazonia, do you seriously think they have the ressources to open a second front going head-butting with S-K over the CC's opinion ?
The Corporate Court works because ultimately the megas need rules to exist and work, they bend the law rather than blatantly breaking it. Two AAA duking it out disregarding the Court's is IMHO likely to get both of them demoted, Omega-ordered, and the eight other Big Ten going medieval on them.
Posted by: CanRay Feb 8 2011, 07:16 AM
Honestly? War is bad for business.
Desert Wars, now, is good for business. And a certain... Side bet, shall we say? Yes, that sounds fair.
Even pump up the part about the rivalry of the two Megas in order to drum up ratings!
The only people that lose are the Mercs/"Security" folks that have to fight the "War".
Posted by: PoliteMan Feb 8 2011, 10:37 AM
There is no profitable reason for the Azzies and SK to go to war. Don't get me wrong, SK and the Azzies are strong, respectively SK is the #1 corp while the Azzies are #2 and they have Aztlan, but they're both also politically isolated. SK is headed by Llofwyr, an alien entity who ruthlessly exploits everyone has few friends, while the Azzies have historical differences with the other Megas from their formation, plus the little matter of blood magic. The other megas have an obvious interest in weakening both the Azzies and SK in the event of war, to prevent either one from establishing dominance if nothing else, and niether the Azzies or SK looks likely to build up any alliance or coalition against the other. The result of any open warfare between the two is likely an Omega Order from the CC against both, which allows the other megas to weaken their two most dangerous enemies and increase their own power.
Having said that, there are reasons such a conflict could arise. The Azzies are neck deep in blood magic and potentially Horrors. If Llowfyr ever found definitive evidence that the Azzies were either in league with the Horrors or that they were even accidentally raising the magic level or somehow aspecting it towards Horrors through blood magic, then there'd be open warfare. Any definitive proof of the rumored existence of the corrupted dragon would also probably cause general war.
One important thing to note is the leadership structure of the corps. Compare SK with Shiawise, the #3 corp. SK can easily go to war because Llowfyr (stupidly IMO) owns all of the corp's stock, SK basically follows Llowfyr's will and nobody can really stop him. Compare that with Shiawise, where the majority of the stock is split between five-ish fueding family members. And Shiawise is relatively stable by Mega standards. The Ares leadership has basically been a history of Damien Knight dueling internal rivals, EVO went from Japanese Megacorp to Russian because of Buttercup but her control is based on her influence over a modestly intelligent orc heir. Such divided corps are very unlikely to go to war themselves unless it's defensive or the profits are obvious and don't carry too much risk. The Azzies and SK are probably the most likely candidates for war because their leadership structures are the most unified, although I could be missing somebody.
Posted by: CanRay Feb 8 2011, 10:40 AM
Wait... Llofwyr has a FEW friends?
As in, any at all?
Posted by: darthmord Feb 8 2011, 06:29 PM
As in, any at all?
The other Greats I would think would cover his scaly backside if there were a sufficiently large enough problem that required Greats to get involved. Lofwyr isn't going to risk his scaly neck for nothing. If he's willing to risk it, the other Greats will sit up and listen. They do tend to listen to their Loremaster after all, regardless of which scaly behind has the job.
Posted by: Doc Chase Feb 8 2011, 06:42 PM
The theorized situation would simply never happen - AZT is too busy getting embroiled in national conflicts against Amazonia to attempt a corporate war. It would be very, very difficult for the Corporate Court to stand by because this would be bad for business.
Corporate war tends to happen all the time as long as the battlefield is economic in scale and the weapons are the same. You won't get security forces raiding extracorporate territory, but you will get price wars and stock buyouts as people get acquired. This happened to several companies, the two latest notably being Fuchi and CATCo.
That being said, these are AAA's we're talking about, whose quarterly statements are in the tens of trillions of nuyen. There's no such thing as conventional warfare with these fellas. Each is locked, more or less, in a state of MAD lest anyone get stupid.
Posted by: kzt Feb 8 2011, 07:25 PM
I had Japan withdraw from the Business Accords over the corps interference with the Imperial Marines in California. This involved the Emperor appointing new directors to the Mitsuhama, Renraku and Shiawase boards (after they resigned following the command raids that took them into custody), along with a Emperor having previously cut a deal with Knight at Ares. This gives them 7 appointees on the corporate court, but they wouldn't be able to replace the existing justices until their term was over. However there was also a 5kt explosion on a Renaku shuttle docking at Zurich Orbital about this time, but that was claimed by a metahuman terrorist organization and clearly had no connection to an acts of the Japanese government. The ensuing inability of the corporate court to act during this period was just a coincidence. 
Posted by: Sixgun_Sage Feb 8 2011, 07:42 PM
You could, in theory, do something that forces the Azzies to open up a second front. positioning a new facility or network thereof in territory that the Azzies only have a notional claim to, otherwise flouting their power at the edges of their territory... the kind of move that draws enough blood were they can't afford to ignore it. Of course you would only do this once you have a response prepared but then again we are talking about a company run by the loremaster himself so who knows what resources he ACTUALLY has on hand and how deep the rabbit hole goes...
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Feb 8 2011, 07:47 PM
"I love the great dragons.
I love Prez Dunkelzhan.
I love the future The whole damn Earth becomes Japan.
I love the sixth world.
It means so much to me."
Posted by: Manunancy Feb 9 2011, 07:18 AM
That's only 4 (Mitsuhama, Reneraku, Shiawase + Ares), and second under what sort of autorithy (beyond gunpoint) would that move be enforced ? Kidnaping the whole board for three megacorps is blatant enough that you can't pull it out unnoticed, as well as stepping hard in a lot of national toes (I don't think the whole board of the three involved corps is in Japan and they will all have rather thick security). If you just snatch the CEOs and have them appoint a puppet, the board can (and will) ignore him because unless it get voted by the board, he's just another extorsionist trying to muscle in at gunpoint, with little power beyond it's sponsor's guns.
It's also likely to send the financial markets in an utter frenzy where anything even remotely japanese takes a nosedive to rock bottom* and probably end up with just about every major bank, hedge fund, pension funds and the like raising all kinds of hells about that sort of market destabilisation along with each and every shareholder of the three involved AAA howling for japanese blood.
*because it creates a precedent for anything in Japan getting snatched up without compensation or recourse resulting in a total loss for it's owner. That would put a serious crimp on it's market value.
Sure it would give back the Emperor control of Japan. It would also get the country into complete mess, possibly embargoed by just about everyone and it's offshore financial assets frozen. Not exactly a great way to get popular. Especially in a country as dependent on raw material imports as Japan. I'd also expect the move to make each and very AA japanese corp very skittish as they wonder wether or not they'll be next to be snatched, resulting in masive capital flight and headquarter relocation.
Posted by: kzt Feb 9 2011, 08:28 AM
Three of them have two seats. 13 total seats, 10 AAAs.
Japan is flat out declaring war on the companies over their blatant interference with the imperial military, bad things happen in wars. Occasionally they happen to bad people. Board members that couldn't be effectively captured were dealt with in other way, at least enough to form a majority. The IJN and direct action units of the secret service section of 2nd bureau of the Imperial General Staff has worldwide reach. Very few personal security teams are designed to deal with a strike aircraft putting a 1000 kg warhead down the chimney.
The expectation is that the management of the AAs and the AAA employees will suddenly remember how patriotic they are. Given the "terrorist incident" also destroyed Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank, a certain amount of economic upheaval is kind of expected. Life is hard.
Imperial Japan in SR is essentially 1940 Japan in a can, so pulling off a Pearl Harbor seems to make perfect sense. Particularly as Japan and Ares combined have some crazy percentage of the military firepower on the planet. And Damien Knight has some plans also.
Posted by: Manunancy Feb 9 2011, 11:55 AM
The problem with such a move is that financial assets in the 6th world are way more mobile than they were in the 40s. Expect the Nikey (or it's 2070 equivalent) to drop like a stone as trillions in capital run for the hills. In a matter of hours, if not minutes. And you can't put a tank in the middle of the electronics highways to stop it.
There's also the slight problem that using miltary force against a shareholder living out of Japan (and there's probably quiIte a lot) isn't only a declaration of war against the parent corporation but also against whatever country said shareholder happens to be living in.
Which dosen't mean pulling such a move is impossible, but the consequences will be extreme. The Corporate Court to basicaly go down the drain : with a majority held a gunpoint by an hostile government the other AAA won't accept the decisions and probably do their damndest to recreate a legitmate one. Probably turning the non-japanese branches of thee AAA japancorps against the compromizd head. Japan can expect to spent quite a few year with every financial market turning it's back to them. Their situation would be somewhat like a better-armed North Korea : big military, piss-poor repute, very limited ressources and precious few willing to trade with them. IT will take an hefty dose of patritism to swallow that sort of pills. Maybe more than can be enforced at gunpoint.
Which begs the question of what exactly Ares might gain in the deal. The market upheaval alone will probably cost them more than even an exclusive contract to supply the whole japanese army. Ares might be a leader in military hardware, but they're hardly the only one and going along such a scheme will hit the hard in where it hurts : in the wallet.
Posted by: Doc Chase Feb 9 2011, 05:48 PM
In the canon timeline, the Japanacorps pulling the crap they did in 'Frisco caused them to lose out on more than a few contracts back home when the Child Emperor took power. Yakashima(EVO) got a lot of good support with them after that, and only after the Empy married his wife did the other ones start getting contracts back.
Posted by: TheWanderingJewels Feb 9 2011, 06:20 PM
It's kinda taken on a life of it's own in the game as The breakout of the Infector Spirits bear a disturbing resemblance to creatures of The Horrors. Something Which would make The Old Cold WizWorm sit up and take notice. Given Aztechnology's open practice of blood magic, He'd want to put the Kibosh on thier jacking up the mana level any more than they already have as things are getting too dangerous too quickly.
Posted by: TheWanderingJewels Feb 15 2011, 11:58 AM
I've also started introducing shots going across the Austin Border as the Sons of the Alamo are starting to get covert backing from the CAS/S-K/PCC Alliance. They popped a few of the Azzies Security Copters and a VTOL or Two with milispec Ground to Air missiles that have left the Azzies spitting nails. The Standard denials all around from the parties involved, but S-K Prime has taken interest.
The players did a little digging and the communiqies between S-K Prime and Aztlan have been getting awfully terse....
And a Run Time to be had by all
Posted by: Fatum Feb 19 2011, 08:30 AM
Dragons are extreme individualists, and Lofwyr is the paragon of that cause.
Posted by: Nath Feb 19 2011, 01:32 PM
Evo is the new name of Yamatetsu. Yakashima is another corporation.
It is very difficult to tell exactly what role the events in California played on the Japanese political stage. The Japanese Diet ordered troops in California to return to Japan as early as October 29th, only two days after the earthquake. Some corporations supported colonel Saito move from the start. It is not clear who already know at that point that Yasuhito survived and would become Emperor, that Yamatetsu-connected Taro Yorikura would be the regent, and that they were willing implement a policy shift regarding metahuman rights and Japanese corporations privileges in Japan (which, as far as Shadows of Asia goes, were the real reasons for the political struggle between the Emperor faction and the megacorporations).
Posted by: kzt Feb 20 2011, 12:55 AM
It's not what Ares gets. It's what Knight wants. Reunification of North America.
Posted by: Manunancy Feb 20 2011, 06:50 PM
Including the NAN and Tir ? If so that's going to be an awfull mess - who knows what kind of astral crap might be awakened by a Great Ghost Dance repeat... And a japanese support for the move isn't likely to make the notion very popular with John Q Public - the californian mess is still a fresh memory.
Posted by: CanRay Feb 20 2011, 08:04 PM
And, honestly, any threat that gets him personally involved is big enough that you'll need the Greats to deal with it.
Probably some Corporate Armies as well. Some Mercenaries. Every Shadowrunner they can convince to work for them. Oh, and every military they can blackmail politicians into letting them have.
And probably FastJack to run the computer-side of things.
Posted by: Mardrax Feb 20 2011, 08:47 PM
I don't think old Jack would want to risk sitting on those blisters for what years he has left.
Posted by: CanRay Feb 20 2011, 09:21 PM
Depends on the fight. He's a Neo-@ after all. If the cause is right...
Posted by: kzt Feb 21 2011, 08:44 AM
Sure would be a huge mess.
But deals will be cut, etc.The ability of the IJN to deliver firepower to the Pacific Coast and a many hundreds of kms inland is important. The IJN also has unfinished business with certain traitorous ex-officers and organizations in California. Other then them, anyone who can be bribed will be be bribed (or otherwise offered effective inducements other then financial), those who can't will have to be made to see reason in "other ways".
A Ghost Dance repeat would be kind of ugly, but it's not going to be a 'bolt from the blue' this time. People will be on the lookout for it. Sat surveillance is a lot better, mages and spirits will tend to notice this kind of thing building, plus Ares and IJ have ability to rapidly deliver a wide range of firepower from orbital platforms. As an example, a gigawatt laser incinerating the mages running the ceremony is likely to limit it's effectiveness.
Posted by: Manunancy Feb 21 2011, 12:07 PM
And what's to prevent a 'concerned party' - which includes each and very of the remaing big 6 (out of 10) and probably several states, close to first tier corps and the like to do their own thor-shooting against what looks for all intent and purpose a forcible world-scale takeover that's going to hold a gun to their temples if left unchecked ?
Sure the Imperial Japan and Ares combined make a big chunk of military power, but if they're going for some high-handed miltary annexation, odds are just about everyone else will feel like a target and takes steps. Like pouring ressources to make every military step a Vietnam-like mess of guerilla fighting. Sure the cleanup will be a pain, but compared to caving in and presenting your butt to an Ares/Japan alliance and hoping they'll use some lube, that's a rather easy choice... When you consider the ressources it takes to support z guerilla compared to putting it down, it gets no brainer. The more militaritic and heavy-handed the opposition the easier it is to implement that sort of 'let us you and him fight' strategy.
Even poorly coordinated, that sort of reactions will make that combo a losing proposition in the long (and maybe not so long) run. Bribing or killing any opposition on that scale is way beyond what even Ares and the IJ can afford. Unless your pump GM-enforced blindfolds on each and every other party for failing either to notice the buildup in black ops assets or to wonder 'gee what are they going to use all those black op guys and gear for ?'.
Booting coroprate control of Japan at the expense of ending up a relative pariah, that's doable. Going on an unchecked rampage of world control, that seriously stretches my notion on believability. Especially since your presentation of the events make it sounds like things will roll smooth as silk for the unlikely duo, without anybody being able to lift a finger to put any stick in their wheels. Even after it blows out wide in the open. There's the super-duper operators on on side, and dumb and dumber the clueless and helpess morons on the recieving end. Which doesnt strikes me as a credible description for the like of Lofwyr, Villiers and their ilk.
Posted by: TheWanderingJewels May 31 2011, 02:13 PM
Sure the Imperial Japan and Ares combined make a big chunk of military power, but if they're going for some high-handed miltary annexation, odds are just about everyone else will feel like a target and takes steps. Like pouring ressources to make every military step a Vietnam-like mess of guerilla fighting. Sure the cleanup will be a pain, but compared to caving in and presenting your butt to an Ares/Japan alliance and hoping they'll use some lube, that's a rather easy choice... When you consider the ressources it takes to support z guerilla compared to putting it down, it gets no brainer. The more militaritic and heavy-handed the opposition the easier it is to implement that sort of 'let us you and him fight' strategy.
Even poorly coordinated, that sort of reactions will make that combo a losing proposition in the long (and maybe not so long) run. Bribing or killing any opposition on that scale is way beyond what even Ares and the IJ can afford. Unless your pump GM-enforced blindfolds on each and every other party for failing either to notice the buildup in black ops assets or to wonder 'gee what are they going to use all those black op guys and gear for ?'.
Booting coroprate control of Japan at the expense of ending up a relative pariah, that's doable. Going on an unchecked rampage of world control, that seriously stretches my notion on believability. Especially since your presentation of the events make it sounds like things will roll smooth as silk for the unlikely duo, without anybody being able to lift a finger to put any stick in their wheels. Even after it blows out wide in the open. There's the super-duper operators on on side, and dumb and dumber the clueless and helpess morons on the recieving end. Which doesnt strikes me as a credible description for the like of Lofwyr, Villiers and their ilk.
sorry for the bit of Threadomancy, but I've hada bit of time to look this over. Assuming that S-K and Aztlan keep to each other as targets, what is the likely reponse?
I can see the other Corporations taking notice and trying to take advantage of the situation, but Lofwyr probably has gotten better at Intell since the whole Horizon Debacle and is keeping a sharp eye on the Other Corps. But assuming he finds out about what Azltan is up to on the meta physical end. He can't jsut take that laying down...
Posted by: Faelan May 31 2011, 07:22 PM
I can see the other Corporations taking notice and trying to take advantage of the situation, but Lofwyr probably has gotten better at Intell since the whole Horizon Debacle and is keeping a sharp eye on the Other Corps. But assuming he finds out about what Azltan is up to on the meta physical end. He can't jsut take that laying down...
Obviously your table is your table, that being said if Aztechnology was in fact guilty of "Summoning Horrors", and pushing the cycle forward, and there was real evidence of it S-K woul dbe the least of their worries. Lofwyr would undoubtedly call together the Great Dragons and urge group action. This would almost surely get the go ahead from every GD, at which point we start looking at who has which CEO, CC Member, AAA, AA, A, and National Governments in their back pockets. Lofwyr owns S-K out in the open; Lofwyr is a little full of himself even for a dragon. The rest keep their control of power structures hidden, but they will expose themselves to take care of a large enough threat. You can almost count on the Corporate Court issuing an Omega Order against Aztechnology due to this secret governing structure, sure some highly placed individuals might realize that they are taking orders ultimately from a giant lizard, but most won't, and regardless it will be in their best interest to keep it secret or well they might find themselves sleeping with the fish.
All in all it would be a quick brutal affair, and in the end Aztechnology would be greatly weakened, get a new board, and CEO, and move on from there. Nature abhors a vacuum, and the fight for the remains of the #2 AAA might actually cause more damage, so you can bet that it would be in the best interest of the existing powers that be to allow them off the hook after sufficient chastisement. You know the Horror you know is better than the one you don't.
Posted by: hermit May 31 2011, 08:00 PM
World War. Aztech has more or less bagged the PPG, which is several medium sized corps and Wuxing. SK has it's claws sunk into most of Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and parts of North America (and leads the EuroCorps). It's be Old World versus Asia, and the battlefield would likely be North America, where both are about on equal footing, drawing Ares into the fray to fight for itself.
And if the gloves come off, the corps don't give a fuck on the ICC. See the novel Shadowdancer, where this almost happens. Also, it is good.
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