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Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 07:07 PM

Standard warning: I cut my teeth on SR3, so some of the SR4 mechanics are tripping me up, especially with respect to the question: "Are characters really supposed to be able to do this?"

I've got three players right now. One is an unaugmented Mage, one is a Face-slash-AR-Hacker with Wired Reflexes 2, and the other is an infiltration/guns expert with Synaptic Booster 1.

So the Mage gets 1 IP, the Infiltrator gets 2 IPs and the Hacker gets 3 IPs. I think their Initiative scores are 6, 7, and 9, respectively.

Now, I understand the core rules here -- roll (Initiative #)d6, count hits, and add that back to your Initiative # to get your total, and everyone acts in descending order. I happen to use a variant that doesn't force Initiative rolls at the beginning of every combat turn (roll once and it sticks through the whole combat) -- I'm pretty sure I read this variant somewhere, but looking back now I can't seem to find it. I may be going crazy.

What I want to know is, does the "standard" way work better? See, I tend to hate excess dice rolling, especially large-batch dice rolling (and especially consecutive excess large-batch dice rolling such as with many extended tests), so anywhere a mechanic gives room to avoid it, I tend to avoid it. Having everyone re-roll 6-9 dice at the beginning of every combat turn is tedious, especially when the results are usually within 1 of their last roll (and gets crazy-annoying for the GM if he doesn't want to put all the guards in one batch initiative).

But my team enters into combat, and the results are always fairly predictable unless the team is up against extremely superior wired-up guards -- the Hacker goes first, the Infiltrator goes second, and it's a toss-up between the Mage and the guards.

So this happens in one combat turn:
Hacker
Infiltrator
Mage
Guards
Hacker
Infiltrator
Hacker

And this happens every combat turn. Initiative rolls are on a normal curve, so something very unlikely has to happen for characters with a 3+ Initiative gap to go in reverse order.

I'm okay with that, I think. My players are wired up enough to go first pretty often unless they're surprised or fighting a street sam or MCT corp assassins or whatnot. That's fine.

What really concerns me is the fact that they get a bazillion actions, and they get them every turn. And I'm not even getting into my Hacker having 3 IPs in AR, 4 whenever he upgrades (sure, there's some gear in Unwired that lets you get 5 IPs, but getting to thumb your nose at Black ICE on the Ares mainframe is probably worth not having that 1 action).

That means for 3 players I need 6 guards to equal the number of player actions, and the only way around that is to dump tens of thousands of nuyen worth of cyber into the guards, which I have a thematic problem with in a lot of circumstances.

I guess what I'm confused about is that no one ever gets lucky and goes twice, without spending Edge. No one with wires out the ears ever gets unlucky and goes once.

Also, the Initiative paradigm has kind of been turned on its head between editions. The previous logic was: your dice roll determines how quickly you go, which determines how many times you go. The current logic is: your dice roll determines how quickly you go, but how many times you go is only based on Gear (and Edge).

And that's fine, but there don't seem to be any middle options like there used to be. Reaction enhancers and Intuition boosters (if there are any) affect your place in the turn order, but even if you max out and have 18 freaking Initiative dice, without Wired Reflexes or a Synaptic Booster, you're stuck acting once, while the autistic paraplegic with Reaction 1 and Intuition 1 gets to act 4 times so long as he has Wired Reflexes 3.

Is that right? Am I missing something?

Posted by: Makki Mar 27 2011, 07:28 PM

you right and you're not the only one unhappy with the IP system. But concerning your example: some minor guards shouldn't be a problem for any runner team. that fact is reflected very well.

a last note. with wired reflexes3, the autistic will have at least ini 5

Posted by: Ryu Mar 27 2011, 07:43 PM

Your observations are generally correct. Yes, your characters are supposed to be able to do that. Going first and more often against opponents that have strength in numbers. We also have a much more augmented world, so guards may well be augmented, and even gangers will have the crude stuff. From couch potatoe to trained for 10.000¥

Your houserule of only rolling initiative once has substantial effects. Statistical outliers gain much more power - roll well once and go first for the whole combat, but beware of glitches. A bunch of qualities modify only the first initiative roll in combat, how do you handle those?

Posted by: Glyph Mar 27 2011, 08:08 PM

The IP system was designed to simplify combat slightly. Extra initiative passes are a huge edge. There are a few ways to keep them from steamrolling over even standard security guards, though.

First, have them spread out, hidden behind cover, etc. Don't have the clustered together where they can all be taken out in one round.

Secondly, remember that while wired reflexes: 1 is not likely to show up until you get to the lieutenant level (squad leaders, veterans - basically anything but the standard first-line security grunts), there are also combat drugs that give an extra IP. You have cram, jazz, and kamikaze. I assume if the main rulebook has three varieties of combat drugs that give an extra initiative pass, then they should be used fairly often by corporations.

On the other hand, K-10 should still be encountered... less often.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 08:28 PM

10,000 is supposed to be a lot of money. It's worth five months of living in an apartment, paying your bills, and eating regularly. Going by the examples in the book, the first threat to sport Wired Reflexes 1 is the Red Samurai Detachment, at Professional Rating 5.



I don't think it's a house rule, I'm pretty sure I read it as an option somewhere. I just don't know where.

It treats the initiative order as a cycle, so once you act, everyone else gets to act before you act again. This prevents people from getting two adjacent actions (excepting bonus IPs). So you never go last in one turn, then first in the next. Also you never go first in one turn, then last in the next (to prevent you from getting one action early, then no actions until everyone else has gone twice). It functions in a loop, so it's pretty fair.

Basically, Initiative only really matters the first turn to set the sequence. Going late in the sequence isn't a huge penalty from turn to turn, after the first, since no one else leaps around in the sequence, either. Turns just become time markers.

I don't have all the other books' qualities memorized, so the only serious Initiative-affecting one I can think of off-hand is Combat Paralysis. They just end up going late in the sequence.

As for glitches, these mostly affect the first turn -- penalties to actions, lost IPs in the first turn as you're caught off-guard, etc. But once combat moves into the second and third turns, Initiative glitches have lost their potency.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 27 2011, 08:45 PM

Rolling initiative only once is fine. It does change things a bit, obviously, but it isn't really huge. And it does apply to everyone in the same way.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: enkidu Mar 27 2011, 08:47 PM

If you feel the combat is too easy for your team, then just change the examples. Like Glyph said, there are drugs that a gang or Corp Guards might be using. In your case, you could have a group of four guards and give extra IPs to one or two.

The basic rule is fun so if the combat isn't enjoyable cos your team rolls over them, screw the rules and change it up.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 08:54 PM

It seems like it was designed this way just to standardize the rolling system. Older editions you rolled Reaction +1d6 (+Xd6 based on Initiative boosters like Wired Reflexes). Every Combat turn you did Initiative in descending order, then at the bottom of the order you struck 10 points off each number. Anyone still in the positives got to act again in order. Rinse, repeat, until no one had a positive Initiative. It was an odd man out, in that you weren't rolling for a target number. Instead you were just adding everything up.

To me, that's quicker and easier, more elegant -- roll a d6 and add it to your Initiative score. Passing 10s marks gave you more IPs. That doesn't fit into the roll-and-count-hits paradigm of the SR4 system, though, and Init + hits never really gets high enough to provide regular extra IPs beyond +1, using the 10s system.

For me, it's just that the "I always get 3 IPs" mentality is kind of weird. I guess the glitch/critical glitch system of stripping extra IPs can make people feel unlucky, but there's no balancing positive factor of being able to get lucky and go in an extra pass where you normally wouldn't. In a sense, only screwing up badly on Initiative has a major effect.

I guess it doesn't bother me that Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters statically provide those IPs, since in previous editions they effectively provided them that way (+2 Reaction / +1d6 Init per level of Wired Reflexes adds up to consistent bonus IPs). It just seems bad that you can't get really lucky on the Initiative roll and get an extra pass.

Maybe a house rule that for every X hits on the Init roll, you get an extra pass? Would that be awful?



Drugs are a good option. I don't see certain corps (Lone Star, Knight Errant) using them regularly, but it could work with others -- non-elite security in the Japanese corps, for example.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 27 2011, 08:58 PM

That's handled with Edge now (however, it only works, if you are not the one with the most IPs anyways)... though it isn't something you get when you roll lucky, the GM can award (refresh) a point of Edge for having great luck with an action, for example.

The GM could also, if someone rolls extremely well on the initiative roll, grant a free point of Edge to spend immediately on an extra IP, for example.

It's all in your hands!

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 08:58 PM

Threats aren't the major problem. It just seems like my choices are: roll gobs of dice every turn and probably have everything be static (since a big Initiative number + a few hits puts way more weight on the big Initiative number than the few hits), or just have everything be static.

I've to date opted for "just static," because it's similar in results to the basic method with the perk of not having to roll gobs of extra dice.

If the Initiative roll actually really mattered I'd change that position in a hurry.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 09:03 PM

Edge is the antithesis of luck, except when used on Long Shot tests. Every other time you mostly spend edge to virtually guarantee success, so it's mostly just an "I Win" commodity (or at least an "I Probably Do Way Better Than I Usually Would Under These Conditions" commodity).

Spending Edge to get an extra IP isn't luck, it's just basic resource management.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 27 2011, 09:04 PM

Something you lose with the static (use same order from round to round)...

- the Uncertainty of not knowing for sure when your next turn comes, it makes planning ahead much easier, if you know your position in the initiative order on the coming rounds for certain
- Wounds reduce initiative, so getting wounded makes you slower in coming rounds

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Thanee Mar 27 2011, 09:05 PM

Yep, that's what I meant with the "though..." part.

Note: I have edited some more into that post above.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Mar 27 2011, 09:27 PM

The only game I know that definitely does this is D&D 3.5.

You are right about regular glitches. But one critical glitch will hinder an augmented character significantly for the whole combat, unless you change this rule:

Just a question, Epicedion. How many rounds does combat normally last at your table? Does rolling ony once per "encounter" signfcantly reduce the number of rolls? If combat only lasts one round, which is quite possible if the PCs surprise the opposition, there is not much gain from such a house rule.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 09:28 PM

In the "static" method, you just knock people lower in the order by their Wound penalties as they accrue.




I see that.

I'm now considering a house rule in which to apply Critical Success to Initiative, where if you get 4+ hits on your Initiative test, you get an extra IP.

Statistical breakdown (roughly):
(Init: % chance of bonus IP)
2-3: 0%
4: 1%
5: 4.5%
6: 10% (average Initiative)
7: 17%
8: 25%
9: 35%
10: 44%
11: 53%
12: 61%

That encompasses the natural range of human Initiative. This can be augmented up to a max of
18: 90%

So to combat Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters from making people run away on the Initiative chart, I think it would be fair to say that each level causes that 4+ threshold to go up by 1.

So, my team's Hacker with Wired Reflexes 2 and 9 Initiative gets his 3 IPs, but needs 6+ hits on the Initiative roll to get another one, only giving him about a 4% chance.

The Infiltrator, with Synaptic Booster 1 and Initiative 8 gets 2 IPs, but needs 5+ hits to get an extra one, about a 9% chance.

Meanwhile, the Mage, with his Initiative 6 only gets 1 IP but has a 10% chance of picking up another pass.

A theoretical Wired Reflexes 3 street sam with 12 initiative would need 7+ hits to pick up a bonus IP, about a 7% chance.

In the case of Reaction Enhancers or whatever theoretical augmentation that might up your Intuition, those wouldn't modify that 4+ threshold at all. Wired and Synaptic can't be combined with other Initiative boosters, so serious abuse wouldn't be possible.

This probably needs some work (especially on those thresholds), but it would help counter-balance the chance of glitching and losing IPs with being critically successful and gaining IPs.

Posted by: Makki Mar 27 2011, 09:42 PM

I like it. Now unaugmented with only Reaction Enhancers and/or Lightning Reflexes can get another IP.
Keep thinking about it. Maybe the additionally won IP comes last? Kind of just manage to squeeze in another action.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 09:44 PM

Quite possibly. My inability to find this in my SR books means that I probably read it in a house rule elsewhere or simply adapted it from D&D, and forgot that I did it.



I hadn't really thought about it. I mostly play glitches and critical glitches by ear, taking the normal rules under advisement. It's so rare for someone to critically glitch on 8+ dice that it hasn't caused a lot of fuss.



"A few turns" is my best estimate for average combat lengths. My team does their best to avoid straight-up cover-filled-hallway firefights.

It probably doesn't significantly reduce the number of rolls, but it does probably save a minute or several worth of rolling and bookkeeping -- having everyone roll and sound off their Initiative, comparing everyone's results to determine the order and then scribbling down the order.

If combat only lasts one round, then you never roll initiative a second time, anyway, and the point is moot.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 09:51 PM

That's not a terrible idea. The additional IPs could function in the hypothetical "5th IP" of a turn. This would probably end up being really annoying in practice, though.

AFAIK, there's no real benefit to getting Reaction Enhancers, except if you don't have Wired Reflexes and somehow have managed to rack up enough Essence loss to need to squeeze in a very small Essence cost. If they also made it easier to potentially get a bonus IP, it could justify their purchase. This would make them much like Boosted Reflexes of yesteredition -- a small Essence cost and a small benefit compared to Wired Reflexes, but enough added "oomph" to your Initiative roll to get you another pass some of the time.

Posted by: Whipstitch Mar 27 2011, 10:01 PM

Initiative is one of those things that definitely highlights the power difference between the samurai and the mooks, but in all honesty opponents with at least 2 passes are not hard to find given that the list includes all drones, spirits, most paracritters and literally anyone on cram or jazz. Hell, if you sent 3 drones against the team you'd actually be beating them by a pass, so things aren't completely hopeless. Really, the effect of having an IP advantage is most dramatic when the runner team already has a sizable dicepool advantage since at that point they can really start mowing through mooks double time. And really, I don't particularly have a problem in that case, since at that point we're talking about a clear superiority situation, although I understand that some people may want a closer race than that.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 27 2011, 10:02 PM

Good idea in general, but too easy, I think. This will happen quite a lot (competent starting characters have double digit initiative scores!).
It should be more like 5 hits (or initiative / 2 (rounded up) in hits).

One thing... you should only allow the extra IP, if the character in question does not have the highest IP in the combat already.

Because giving those, who already have the highest IP, even more, does not exactly counteract your problem with the extra actions.

Besides, they will usually be the ones that make that roll the most often on average.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Reaction Enhancers are awesome, because they stack with many initiative boosters, unlike pretty much everything else.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 27 2011, 10:20 PM

Init/2 would heavily favor low Init scores. Maybe a +2 threshold modifier per bonus IP from gear/magic?

Posted by: LonePaladin Mar 28 2011, 01:30 AM

How about this version>

Every 4 hits on an Initiative Test increases your natural Initiative Passes by 1. This does not result in gaining additional passes unless it exceeds your augmented IP score.

To use a f'rinstance:
A street sam, a mage, and a hacker get cornered by Lone Star. Their base Initiative/IP scores are:

• Street Sam: Init 7(9), IPs 1(3)
• Mage: Init 8, IPs 1
• Hacker: Init 10, IPs 1
• Lone Star Squad: Init 8, IPs 1

Everyone rolls initiative. The street sam gets 9 + 5 hits = 14; the mage gets 8 + 5 hits = 13; the hacker gets 10 + 2 hits = 12; Lone Star gets 8 + 4 hits = 12. Because the street sam got 4 hits, his natural IPs increase to 2, but this doesn't override his augmented IPs. The mage and Lone Star both got enough hits to increase their IPs to 2. This puts the order as follows:

14 Street Sam
13 Mage
12 Hacker/Lone Star
14 Street Sam
13 Mage
12 Lone Star
14 Street Sam

Posted by: Makki Mar 28 2011, 01:42 AM

instead of speeding the unaugmented up, we could slow the augmented down.
Everybody starts with one IP.
Every 3 hits on the Initiative test grant an additionial IP, up to the maximum granted by augmentation or magic.

the end result is probably about the same as the post above.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Mar 28 2011, 01:43 AM

One thing here - the book says that Jazz was specifically created by Lone Star to help them compete with wired runners. So having guards use Jazz is totally legit.

"Developed by Lone Star’s R&D Division, jazz was designed to better the odds for run-of-the-mill law-enforcement officers who run up against augmented street samurai."

Posted by: Makki Mar 28 2011, 01:44 AM

especially, as a Sec Guard or LS Cop will run into a Street Samurai only once in his life.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Mar 28 2011, 02:39 AM

Please do not forget. Most of those combat drugs were developed specifically FOR the Corporate Guard/Cop types. They are an alternative to permanent augmentations, which cost a lot, as you have already observed.

EDIT: Which was obviously covered in the posts above... Sorry.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 28 2011, 02:57 AM

Yeah, Jazz.

It costs 75 yen a hit, lasts an hour, with no side effects, and is something every guard should have.

If your crew is getting the drop on every guard, it's always going to be boring, but anyone who is expecting combat should have 2 or more IPs, including your team's mage. Whether it's casting a spell or hitting the "GO TIEM" button on their autoinjector, it's so easy to have a 2nd pass that anyone who is on the job working should have one.

That said, always tailor responses to jobs, and jobs to your team.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 28 2011, 03:00 AM

Well, there are *supposed* to be side effects. Ah, well.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Mar 28 2011, 03:03 AM

I'd call that a side effect...

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 28 2011, 03:21 AM

Matters for players who might have something to do 10-60 minutes after that 3 second combat, but -2 to paperwork tests for 10 minutes is not something that a guard worries about.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Mar 28 2011, 03:25 AM

dunno - critical glitching a paperwork test might result in a nasty papercut...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 28 2011, 03:34 AM

It also used to make you insane with longterm use. I guess they removed that. It's still addictive per the normal rules, right?

Posted by: K1ll5w1tch Mar 28 2011, 03:54 AM

I personally just have my players roll 1 initiative per combat encounter. Most combat, at least from what I've seen doesn't go past 1 or 2 rounds at the most anyway so it's not much of an issue.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 28 2011, 04:09 AM

Jazz goes into the list of things to use should the Lone Star agents have a round to shoot up.

As for LonePaladin's suggestion, about each 4 hits modifying IP by +1 but that only having an effect if that surpasses their augmented automatic bonus IPs, I think I kind of like it.

I may try out both and see which one works better in play. This week's game is expecting some combat, and I have some permissive players who don't mind my effing around with the system so long as we ditch it if they hate it.

Posted by: Aerospider Mar 28 2011, 11:53 AM

It's interesting that you are happy for a fixed cycle of acting but want a variable number of IPs for the characters. I'm not arguing against the variable IPs (I think that was a notable loss with SR4) but I think the fixed cycle detracts from the experience somewhat. The practical implications are small – it only becomes unfair with regards to non-action timing, where the faster people are guaranteed to act first after a timed event occurs – but having players embroiled in a conflict know exactly who will be acting and in what order between their own actions is too simplified IMO. For example – When the chips are down and there's a chance your nearest opponent might get two actions before your next action you might well consider a different approach to the one you'd employ should you know for a fact he'll only act the once (or even not at all should you have more IPs).

And I've just thought of another thing – sacrificing actions. Suppose someone acts before you and you give up your next action to dodge. By RAW you should have a chance to act before their next action by beating them in the initiatve roll the following turn, but if it's a fixed cycle you know you won't. If your assailant is good enough he could force you to keep sacrificing your actions for full dodges and your only means of turning the tables are to take the hit, which could knock you down and consume your action (simple action?) with getting back up. This makes winning the one-and-only initiative roll in a fixed-cylce system a much bigger advantage than it might seem.

Posted by: StealthSigma Mar 28 2011, 12:43 PM

After which he's either in a grave or promoted to a nice cushy desk job.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Mar 28 2011, 02:09 PM

I think it's perfectly good that PCs usually have a few more IPs on average than the opposition. The opposition only has to take out one team of PCs after all. If the PCs are going to succeed at an entire mission, they need to be better than the individual obstacles.

Also, in many combats, there are more enemies than PCs, so they really need those additional IPs, if you start totalling the IPs of both sides.

I'm intrigued by the variable IPs based on Initiative, but preferably in addition to normal IP boosts. It eases out some of the weirdness from high-initiative 1IP builds.

I personally also favor letting drugs and augmentations stack. Powerful, but I like to keep the temptations dangling in from of the players; addiction just fits SR.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 28 2011, 05:00 PM

I'm not really "happy" with the fixed cycle of acting. There's just no real benefit to rekajiggering the Initiative order every 3 seconds, so I haven't been doing it. With a house rule that allows extra IPs for exceptional Initiative rolls (that I'll be trying in the next game), I'll be returning to Initiative rolls every round.

Posted by: tete Mar 28 2011, 10:06 PM

Arguably with Wired Reflexes 2 in 3rd edition this didn't happen. It was pretty easy to get minimum score of 11 or better. You only needed a reaction of 4 with wired 2 to get a minimum of 11 on an initiative. I had a 3e character with a minimum of 19. So as long as I got two 2s or better on my four dice I went 3 times. I have heard of minimum scores in the 20s.

Posted by: DMiller Mar 28 2011, 11:48 PM

I’m just wondering how you are looking at the 4 hits = +1 IP, only if you get more bonuses than you have base IP. Does that mean that a character with 1 IP needs 8 hits to actually gain an additional IP, and a 2 IP character would need 12 hits? It would really limit the wired 3 folks from gaining an additional IP at least, as they would need 20 hits on an initiative test to gain their 5th IP. Twenty hits should be unheard of even with edge. Eight or twelve hits sound pretty darn hard to achieve. But this is talking about a free IP which is pretty powerful.

-D

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 29 2011, 02:16 AM

I feel like you might as well just use the SR3 divide-by-ten method if you want variable IPs. Which I do like, it's a fun little uncertainty.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 29 2011, 04:19 AM

Yeah, a little extra analysis would show that to be pretty well impossible. As far as I can tell, there's a hard limit of 19 dice on Initiative with max augmented Reaction and Intuition and the Exceptional Attribute quality.

Going by the 4 hits (+ additional IPs beyond the first) concept as opposed to the one you described, that would mean a maxed out 19 Initiative / 4 IPs would need 7 hits to get a 5th IP, which would happen about 45% of the time.

But, honestly, 19 Initiative is really reaching for the sky. I think if someone wants to devote a quadrillion nuyen to Initiative, they should at least have fun with it.

On the other side of things, certain creatures like dragons (especially great dragons) generally have 16+ Initiative, and would end up getting their third IP pretty regularly. But they're dragons, so meh. A few other paracritters and spirits might also end up on the winning side of the deal, but that doesn't bug me either.



I thought about it. Initiative = Init + 1d6 per IP, and use the 10s system from there. However, you'd end up with some unaugmented people always getting an extra IP (10 Initiative is easy/cheap to get with unaugmented stats). With the 4 hits (+1 per extra IP) = +1 IP rule, you're either looking at augmentation or paying through the nose for maximum unaugmented Reaction/Intuition scores to get 50% odds on a bonus IP or better. The 50% mark is breached at 11 Init dice, which means at least one unaugmented stat at the natural cap.

At slight augmentation (+1 IP), that 50% mark is passed at the 14 dice mark, and heavy augmentation (+2 IP) hits it at the 17 dice mark. Someone with +3 IP never gets there within the 19 dice limit.

Those are obviously going to be extreme cases.

Posted by: StealthSigma Mar 29 2011, 12:17 PM

Under your numerics....
Human
Intuition: 7 Natural + 3 Augmented
Reaction: 7 Natural + 3 Augmented
Total: 20

Human - Exceptional Attribute [Reaction] & [Intuition], Genetic Optimization [Reaction] & [Intuition]
Intuition: 8 Natural + 4 Augmented
Reaction: 8 Natural + 4 Augmented
Total: 24

Unless there's a race out there with better than 6/6 natural unaugmented max in Int/Rea. Also not sure how feasible it is to acquire an augmented capped Intuition...

Posted by: Makki Mar 29 2011, 01:15 PM

there are really no Intution augmentation except Increase Attribute Spell.
But some races can get fairly high Rea+Int: Pixie, Nosferatu, Fox shifter.
And don't forget rigged/remote controlled drones. Matrix initiative can get pretty very easy.

Posted by: StealthSigma Mar 29 2011, 02:07 PM

The drug psyche provides +1 Intuition.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 29 2011, 02:24 PM

Maybe you'd have to average them, or maybe all those people *should* get 2 IPs. I mean, that's kind of the point, right?

Another option might be decoupling high Initiative (going first) from extra IPs (going more than once). That's a bigger change and possibly not work the effort, though.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 29 2011, 05:03 PM

Humans don't get 7 natural max Reaction or Intuition, and you can only take Exceptional Attribute once. I don't know about Genetic Optimization, but I'm assuming it does the same thing as Exceptional Attribute.




Basically my opinion is that if you manage to get yourself a quadrillion Initiative, you should probably get an additional pass even if your gear doesn't explicitly give it to you. In previous editions, unaugmented normal people could get a second pass some of the time, and there were non-Wired-Reflexes gear options that weren't nearly as powerful Initiative-wise, but had other benefits and would at least make you capable of hitting the 2-3 passes range if you stacked them right.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 29 2011, 05:49 PM

You know what the problem with variable IPs is? The weird outliers. This system was designed to have less statistical outliers. No grannys exploding 6's on their initiative and getting 6 turns.

<small addendum>

If you want to dangle a carrot for the unwired and non-magical, let lightning reflexes have a 2nd rank that also grants an IP but only if they have no wires or magical ability (or technomagic for that matter really...)

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 29 2011, 06:12 PM

Statistical outliers can make games fun, though.

The most memorable parts of any game are usually the ones where the most unlikely things happen. You don't want those things to happen too often, but the way dice rolling follows a normalized curve gives you sharp drop-offs toward the fringes of success (weighted by probability so that total failure is more likely than total success). It's unlikely you'll roll 0 hits on 10 dice, but it's even less likely that you'll roll 8, 9, or 10 hits.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 29 2011, 07:08 PM

Yeah, I *like* the weird outliers. Besides, the granny'd have to use Edge under the SR4 exploding-6 rules.

Posted by: capt.pantsless Mar 29 2011, 08:50 PM

You could also use 4 + Base IPs hits = +1 IP. An unaugmented person needs 5 hits, a 3IP Street-Sam needs 7. It gives the slower characters more of a chance to get free IPs, and still keeps the wired-up crowd from constantly getting them. I'd keep it capped at 1 free IP, and you can't spend Edge to get additional IPs, otherwise there'd be some serious shenanigans.

You could also do 4 + 2*(Base IPs) = +1 IP, depending on how common you wanted freebie IPs to be for your group.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 29 2011, 11:40 PM

But the subtract 10 rule is from SR1 - 3 and not 4. Back then all 6's exploded. I understand the desire for variance and outliers, and they do still exist, but it never made sense to me that a Phys Ad with 1 rank of improved reflexes, under the old rules, could potentially get more actions in a turn than a MBW zombie. It just shouldn't happen outside of an ambush/surprise round.

Then again, it also used to cost extra to get a trigger to turn off your wires so you didn't look like an active, paranoid schizophrenic on nova coke.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 30 2011, 02:52 AM

I don't think initiative dice exploded. Having Reaction 8 and +2d6 Initiative (SR3), which is about what you would have with top-level Quickness and Intelligence plus Improved Reflexes 1, would still limit you to 20 Initiative, which was only worth 2 passes. There would also be a slight chance (snake eyes on Initiative) that you would only get 1 pass.

The Reflex Trigger in SR4 is part of the Wired Reflexes package, costing a Free Action to switch on/off -- and if you play it by the book, switching on your Wired Reflexes in Round 1 doesn't give you your bonus until Round 2.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 30 2011, 03:58 AM

Now, I don't have my SR3 book, but I did play it quite a bit, so bear with me. You have reaction 8 + 2d6. You roll your 2d6 and get 3 and 6, reroll 6 and you get a 5. This means you get to add 11 to your reaction. If you had rolled a 6 on the reroll it would explode yet again. (This was also why a TN of 7 was silly, any 6 you reroll turns into at least a 7, so yes, 7 = 6....) That means with some luck on your 6's there was no ceiling, while the other guy with 4d6 doesn't get a single 6 and is stuck with his 2 passes (because his base was likely above 14 really). Just food for thought on the matter and I could be wrong and mixing in SR2 rules even.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 30 2011, 04:02 AM

Yup, there's an outside chance something crazy would happen. ... Yup.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 30 2011, 04:24 AM

I looked it up. Rule of Six didn't apply to initiative rolls. Initiative rolls were simply tallied. Your 2d6 roll of 3 and 6 would add 9 to your Reaction to get your initiative score for the turn.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 30 2011, 04:37 AM

Oh, while I've got the SR3 book open, the Street Samurai archetype had Reaction 11, and +3d6 Initiative (with his initiative source stats at their natural maximums). That was including Wired Reflexes 2 and Reaction Enhancer 1.

That meant his initiative ranged from 14 to 29 (middling out at about 22-23), giving him at least 2 passes and at most 3. Probably 3.

Comparatively, the Weapons Specialist had Reaction 7 and +2d6 Initiative (again with the source stats at their natural maximums), which included Boosted Reflexes 2 (+1 Reaction, +1d6 Init).

That meant initiative ranged from 9-19 (1-2 passes, probably 2).

Boosted Reflexes were like a proto Synaptic Booster, and were only marginally effective compared to Wired Reflexes, at greatly reduced cost and Essence loss, as opposed to being an expensive light-Essence equivalent.

You could take 6 Reaction Enhancers (compared to 3 in SR4) and stack them up with Wired Reflexes, getting something like a +12 Reaction and +3d6 initiative bonus from the two. This meant that you could have something like 18 +4d6 Initiative, topping out around 42 (5 passes) in a turn on a good roll.

Of course it'd cost you 860,000 before you factored in the need to mitigate some of that 6.8 Essence loss with alphaware.

Posted by: LonePaladin Mar 30 2011, 08:38 PM

I'm gonna do some self-nitpicking on the house-rule I proposed, see if I can find any obvious flaws. I'm going to use the pregens from the SR4A book for consistency.

I'm not a statistician, but here's the assumptions I'm making:

• One hit is assumed for every 3 dice rolled. If there are 2 dice remaining, one extra hit is listed as possible.
• Every 4 hits results in an extra unaugmented Initiative Pass; no extra IPs are gained unless this exceeds the augmented value.
• When Edge is added, one die is added for every 6 being rolled (i.e., one die in six explodes). These extra dice are added before the 1 hit:3 dice calculation. This is only performed once; the single extra die that would be added if another multiple of 6 were reached won't affect the results.
• I didn't check this for adding Edge after the roll, or using Edge to reroll.

Looking at this, extra actions (if unaugmented) aren't likely until you have an Initiative of 11 or more. Once you have a 12+, you can effectively count on getting an extra IP; someone with good enough reflexes might be able to compete with the low-grade wired types (making the Reaction Enhancer worth purchasing if you're close enough to that magic number).

Even if your Initiative is really low, spending Edge before you roll makes an extra IP a lot more likely, unless you have both low Initiative and low Edge. (The Street Shaman reflects this.) Someone who invested heavily into Edge might get dramatically better results. So using Edge to increase your Initiative roll, instead of just buying an extra IP, will generally benefit you more.

I don't see a way to exploit this, really -- the only way you could absolutely guarantee an extra IP would be to have an Initiative of 16 and buy automatic hits, but if you've got that much, you might as well roll and take the chance that you could get lucky and get a third one. The odds of you only getting 3 hits on 16 dice are really really low.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 30 2011, 08:41 PM

*Can* you Edge an Initiative roll at all? Just wondering, it doesn't matter much.

Posted by: sabs Mar 30 2011, 08:41 PM

Can't I just spend edge to get an extra IP?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 30 2011, 08:44 PM

Yes, but LonePaladin was comparing the benefit of buying an IP versus Edging the roll.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Mar 30 2011, 08:52 PM

Yes and yes. You can even spend edge to go first in an IP.

Posted by: LonePaladin Mar 30 2011, 08:57 PM

Yes to both questions. I wanted to see how the numbers would play out on average, to see if my idea turned out to be really broken. It doesn't seem to be; you need an Initiative of 10-11 to be able to consistently get 4+ hits.

So, your run-of-the-mill street sam, if made like the example one, won't really be going first very often, but they'll always get their standard 3 IPs. Someone who's gone for maximum Initiative, though? Let's see what's doable at character-creation, specifically avoiding anything that adds IPs. (I'm also not using anything out of Augmentation or Unwired, as I don't have either book.)

• Start with a human. 0 BP.
• Take Exceptional Attribute (Reaction). 20 BP.
• Buy Reaction to 7, Intuition to 6. 75+65 = 140 BP.
• Buy Edge to 7. 65 BP.
• Rating 2 reaction enhancers. 0.6 Essence, 20,000¥ (4 BP).
• Rating 2 adrenalin pump. 1.5 Essence, 60,000¥ (12 BP).

So, for 241 BP, you have someone with Reaction 7(9/11), Intuition 6; Initiative 13(15/17), 1 IP. That'd leave only 159 points for everything else (stats, skills, gear, etc.).

On an average roll, their Initiative will be 20 with 2 IPs; if the pump's active, they get 22-23/2 IPs. When they spend Edge on the roll, with everything running, they get 24 dice -- assume 4 explode, so 28. This translates to 9 hits on average, so their Initiative would be 26 with 3 IPs.

Sure, this guy can't do much with any skill, but he's always the first one out the gate. It might be possible to make a working character with what's left, but it's really a one-trick pony.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 31 2011, 04:24 AM

I ran into a guy in Missions (character was a Prime Runner, so not new) that had 4 IPs and a 20 Initiative.

He never even rolled Init. He just bought 5 successes for a total of 25 and still usually went first in combats.



-k

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 31 2011, 04:38 AM

You can't actually choose to buy hits, right?, especially not in clutch situations. But I get the joke, of course.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 31 2011, 04:58 AM

I'd say that a DP of 20 for Init might qualify as "exceptionally large".

I wasn't the one running the game, but I saw no harm in it. He was almost certainly going to go first ANYWAY, and it sped things up.

It's like a martial artist I once played in that Cancer Game. For damage rolls, he rolled 1d4 and added a ton of modifiers for OMG damage. I often didn't bother rolling and assumed minimum damage, because rolling wouldn't have made much of a difference and it sped things up.


-k

Posted by: Yerameyahu Mar 31 2011, 05:09 AM

Yes, I do see that. Still, it's removing the possibility of even a glitch, etc. I'd say it's not what that rule is talking about.

Posted by: Epicedion Mar 31 2011, 05:14 AM

I have to say that I really hate the buying-hits rule. Players only roll dice when the result matters. If the result doesn't matter enough to worry about the degree of success/failure, why would they be rolling dice in the first place?

Posted by: LonePaladin Mar 31 2011, 06:45 AM

Well, there's the trade-off factor. If you roll dice, you'll usually get 1 hit per 3 dice, but have the usual statistical variances coming into play, plus the off chance of rolling a glitch. Buying hits is a trade-off; you won't glitch, but get fewer hits as a result.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Mar 31 2011, 06:49 AM

How did he get that dice pool?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 31 2011, 06:52 AM

Spellcaster of some sort, if I remember correctly, and I think he was a poster child for Focus Addiction.




-k

Posted by: vladski Mar 31 2011, 05:05 PM

I tweaked Initiative to allow a bit more random, echoing SR3:

You roll your Initiative as normal (Roll dice and add hits to Initiative stat). Then, compare the number of hits (ie. 5's and 6's) you had on the roll to the below chart:

* 2 hits , you get your 2nd pass (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for it)
* 3 hits, you get your 3rd and 4th pass(if you have the appropriate gear/spells for them)
* 4+ hits on your test, you gain a second pass (only if you are unwired/unspelled.)


A non-wired guy is probably tossing around 6-7 dice on average for Init so 4+ hits won't come up that often, but when it does, it will give them that nice lucky shot. And he is still only picking up a second pass.

A wired guy is probably tossing around 8-11 dice so he is more than likely to always make his threshold for secondary and tertiary passes... but sometimes not.

My group found that they enjoyed it and it adds no extra hassle or time to the game, nor does it change "mechanics" What it does do is create some spice. You should never take anything for granted.

Vlad

Posted by: Ryu Mar 31 2011, 06:06 PM

Magician, 2 sustaining foci (health), Increased Initiative, Increase Reaction?

Posted by: Semerkhet Apr 1 2011, 04:22 PM

I've rediscovered simultaneous actions in recent years. Burning Wheel has a lovely combat resolution system that captures the chaos of combat rather than the 'one action after another' system so prevalent in most RPGs.

For me, one of the more annoying things about the initiative system in SR is that when someone gets knocked out of commission in a given phase it usually wouldn't be apparent for up to several seconds, i.e. 2-3 IPs. I am not happy with withholding that information from players and thus forcing them to pump a corpse full of bullets as it crumples to the ground over two IPs, but I'm also not happy with meta-game hand-waving.

I'm currently helping design a system (not for use in SR, though I guess it could be adapted) that uses initiative to determine the order in which actions are declared and resolved, with the effects taking effect simultaneously at the end of the turn. Worst initiative score declares first and proceeds to best initiative score declaring last. Reminds me of Battletech way back in the day*, where winning initiative means you are granted the advantage of having your opponent commit themselves to an action without knowing what you're going to do. It's a subtle thing but sometimes decisive.


* I assume Battletech initiative still works this way but since I haven't played in >15 years I can't say for sure.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 1 2011, 04:38 PM

How does it work?

What makes you think that the results of actions only become apparent later? Results from any IP are apparent as soon as they happen. So no, the corpse does not drop in the next round.

That's similar to the way oWOD Initiative works. The actions however do not take place at the end of the turn but in order of the initiative. Slower characters will generally become aware of the results of faster ones as they happen, but have no way of interrupting them. Faster characters can act and interrupt anytime at or after their Initiative.

If someone reads the rules of SR carefully this is what should de facto happen anyways.
GM: Player with the highest Initiative, state your characters actions.
Player: I wait and see what happens (i.e. delay Action)
GM: OK. Next in line is one of my goons. He will shoot your character in the face.
Player: No he won't, at least not untill after I have shot him first.
GM:

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 1 2011, 04:55 PM

I like the idea of most 'realistic' initiative systems, but I'm not prepared to enjoy the contrived reverse-time stuff, or a bunch of secret-ballot stuff. In the end, game-ier is better.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 1 2011, 05:09 PM

I agree, the more "realistic" an Initiative system gets, the less fun it usually is at the table. If you make it too realistic, nothing distinctively cool ever happens, since the mechanics to simulate those things become too complex. Most RPG turn-based systems follow the flow of a cinematic-style fight, with the action focusing briefly on an individual and then moving to the next individual. You get to say "hey, remember that fight where my character jumped off the fire-escape and landed on that street sam to keep him from shooting a grenade into the rigger's van?" And then another player says, "Yeah, that was just before my character shot the gas tank on the troll's flamethrower with a tracer round." Each moment like that is a distinctive piece rather than a part of a jumbled mess.

Posted by: Epicedion May 6 2011, 04:47 AM

I've gotten a chance to playtest my Initiative house rule, too! Refresher: critical success (4+ hits) on the initiative roll grants an extra IP. Any extra IPs from ware/etc adds +1 to that threshold per extra IP.

This worked out really well. The players got into a big firefight with a bunch (6) of Lone Star cops, and instead of mowing through them in one combat turn as usual, they managed to stretch the fight out for 3 combat turns with only 2 Lone Star fatalities (and one unconscious Lone Star mage) before the hacker got the van moving and the infiltrator CS gassed the remaining agents (which effectively prevented pursuit). It worked out so that one or two Lone Star agents would get an extra IP each turn, and the extra actions really kept the pressure on the team to stick to cover.

In the course of the combat, the team also picked up a couple of extra actions, which (combined with their gear), still gave them a significant edge over the cops. The extra variety in the combat turns really forced them to think and take very decisive actions when they had the opportunity, rather than rely on their own extra IPs to clean up.

We also learned that Fichetti Security pistols really aren't very effective against someone with Titanium Bone Lacing and a Lined Coat. Well, the Lone Star guys learned that, anyway. Just before the CS gas.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 9 2011, 01:57 PM

I like this rule, I must say.


(And they should have had TBolts. )