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Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 2 2011, 05:00 AM

I've been working on expanding the metagenetic qualities in the game, and I'd like to see what people think about them. I'd also like to see any other people have used in their games.

I'll start it off with mine.

Augmented Attributes
10 BP per level

This metagenetic quality gives the character a plus one per level to their attribute that may break the normal limits. Each time it is purchased they must designate which attribute it affects. they may, with the GM's approval, purchase it up to five times for each attribute.


Wings (Redux)
Cost: 10 or 20 BP

The character possesses a set of wings with a total span equal to three times their height.

Bone density or lacing will render the character to heavy to fly or glide.

At 10 BP they cannot fly only glide. But they are also immune to falling damage providing that they have room to spread their wings. Their speed is equal to their running speed. If they can catch thermal updrafts they can extend the distance they can glide.

For 20 BP their bodies have undergone radical restructuring to allow true flight. Their bones have reshaped into a honeycomb structure that lightens them by 50% which compensates for their weight of the wings. Weight is equal to the character pre-surge. Increased tensile strength in muscles has resulted in an elevated temperature that makes them easier to spot. They receive a -1D to hide against thermographics. Finally their metabolism increases to provide the energy necessary for flight. Add 20% to lifestyle costs for additional dietary requirements.

They fly at a rate of twice their running speed.

Celerity counts to increase flight speed as well, but leg enhancements do not. Speed can be further increased with a Flight check in the same way running does.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 2 2011, 05:05 AM

They'd have to be pretty strong to let a human fly, let alone ork or troll. Don't forget the potential use as an Exotic Melee Weapon, either. As dwarfs are smaller, I'd give them a bonus to movement rate, as well as those with the Neotenic quality. To be honest, I'm surprised this didn't show up in RC originally. There's several bird-like metagenetic qualities but not this.

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 2 2011, 08:41 PM

I assumed that the wings would be strong enough to allow flight, but a cheaper version only for gliding could be interesting.

Dwarfs actually seem to weigh as much as humans, so they wouldn't get that much of a bonus, maybe give them the same speed. But would this mean that heavier trolls would actually be slower?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 2 2011, 08:50 PM

AFAIK, it'd be ungodly hard to make a humanoid fly without full-on pixie magic. In terms of total systemic body changes, I mean. Forget trolls, just regular people. I feel like the reason this isn't in RC is because it's so impossible… and of dubious benefit. A sort of flying-squirrel gliding membrane seems more reasonable, though still firmly in the 'more weird than desirable' camp.

Perhaps a bird- or bat-like parasentient would be a better fit? A harpy Infected?

Posted by: Minchandre Apr 5 2011, 06:18 AM

Of course, Pixie magic isn't impossible. Just cause the quality to give the character Magic 1 (which can be increased as normal if an Adept or Magician), with the caveat that if their Magic ever goes below 1 for whatever reason, they can no longer fly.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 5 2011, 06:24 AM

Of course all it take is a little bit of pixie magic, but you're forgetting the primary component: "you just gotta believe!"

Posted by: Abstruse Apr 5 2011, 06:31 AM

Please no. Thanks to Dragonborn in D&D 4e, there's too many furries posing as gamers as it is...

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 5 2011, 06:34 AM

AFAIK, it'd be ungodly hard to create a directed ground-effect cushion under the character’s feet, allowing him to hover a few centimeters above the ground without full-on pixie magic. In terms of total systemic energy capacity, I mean.

On a related note, I want to try doing 100 push-ups.

Posted by: Abstruse Apr 5 2011, 06:40 AM

Humans flat-out aren't built for wing flight. We're too dense. Birds have skeletal structures specifically designed to be as light as possible without losing much strength. Also, a pair of wings would require a second set of pectoral muscles, specifically very very strong ones. You're better off figuring out a way to pull an Iron Man than an Angel.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Apr 5 2011, 06:44 AM

In a game where dragons, Huge giant reptiles, fly around effortlessly, I think the physics behind it are a bit... shall we say unwanted? Lol

IRL it might be almost impossible for a human to fly with angle sized wings.

In the game. Dragons fly. All sorts of meta critters fly. Aren't gargoyles made of stone and fly?

Posted by: Abstruse Apr 5 2011, 06:55 AM

Yeah, but those critters are all magical in origin. It's talked about in Dragons of the Sixth World p12, complete with a description of oriental dragons as "the kind of dragon that likes to snub gravity so much it doesn't even have wings".

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 5 2011, 08:21 AM

Ain´t SURGE also some kind of...magic?^^

Posted by: Caadium Apr 5 2011, 09:02 AM

Not as I understand it. It is just a random genetic expression. In fact, when Surge was first introduced, awakened were 50% less likely to undergo SURGE than mundanes.

Dragons, Drakes, Pixies, etc, are magical creatures, their flight is more magic in origin. Don't get me wrong, I've considered making a Drake just so I could fly, so flight through less cost-prohibitive means appeals to me. Hell, in SR2 I had a GM let me create a Flight spell (faster travel than levitate, only castable on myself, with much higher drain).

However, when you look at the science-fiction aspect of Shadowrun I'd have to tell my players no if they asked for something like this. If you want to go for personal flight that isn't magic in nature, I suspect looking at things like flight packs or similar things. To me, wings either have to be workable or magical; not something in between.

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 5 2011, 09:13 AM

As is understand it, Surge is nothing more than a metagenetic expression through induced magic. Surge started as halleys comet caused some sort of mana-spike and even nowadays some people goblinize or change if the are expelled to a high level of mana, so the reason for the change would definitely be magic. Once it expresses, it doesn´t need magic to sustain, nor is it active magic...in that case i agree, but the effect itself is magic in nature. Some of the effects are also definitely paranormal (e.g. glamour, nasty vibe, etc.) so something like flight shouldn´t be the problem. Not really.^^

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 5 2011, 10:28 AM

Contrary to popular belief, humanoid winged flight is not actually "impractical". A wingspan of approximately 2.5 times the individual's height (12 - 14 feet for the average human) would be sufficient to provide lift. It would, however, require significant restructuring of their back & shoulder area to handle the comparatively extreme stress, as well as exceptionally strong muscle development to support the wing use. Hollowing of the bones would also be sensible, but not strictly necessary dependent on other changes; hardening the bones (without increasing density - not exactly sure how) would offset their decreased strength for practical purposes.

On the whole, it looks quite a bit similar to a metagenic quality I developed a while back. Unfortunately I never got a chance to play the character I built it for.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 5 2011, 11:56 AM

Gargoyles.
Else:
Is Drake-Flight Magical or is it from the wings?
We have a Precedent here.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 5 2011, 01:30 PM

Drake-flight is magic.

I didn't mean that SURGE is mundane in nature. I *did* mean that SURGE effects are largely non-magical (some clear exceptions), and that you don't even need wings if the flight is magical.

I was referring specifically to the massive muscle/skeleton restructuring required; to me, the very definition of 'impractical'.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 5 2011, 02:51 PM

I'd make the wings in themselves only good for gliding and preventing damage from falls, maybe also short hops.
For actual flight, i'd introduce a second quality that includes changes to the character's bone structure (incompatible with bone lacing/bone density augmentation, probably also with a reduced physical damage track).
Maybe add a third quality for air sacs.

Posted by: Cougar Apr 5 2011, 03:08 PM

Reminds me of something I had seen a while ago . . . . .

Found it: http://www.memento-mori.com/other/games/angels.html

Posted by: Abstruse Apr 5 2011, 10:23 PM

Drakes and SURGE are two different things that just happened to occur around the same time due to the surge in mana levels.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 5 2011, 10:33 PM

Right. SURGE effects are generally in the 'biological' camp (rhino hide), instead of the flatly 'magic' side (pixie flight). But, even if you said the SURGE flight was magic, then you wouldn't even *need* the wings.

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 6 2011, 03:38 PM

Depends. I think in the description of the Surge-Effects they mention that you nearly almost (especially at high-rating Surge-classes) have some kind of "theme" the changings follow. So flying without wings wouldn´t be SURGE.^^

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 6 2011, 03:59 PM

Especially as there's already several other bird-themed metagenetic qualities: feathers, beak...

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 6 2011, 07:10 PM

Right. But at least you could so some kind of ostrich-man....not cool but possible.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 6 2011, 07:12 PM

Roadrunner, with Celerity?

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 6 2011, 07:29 PM

If you combine it with Raptor Legs, the Movement spirit power and the obligatory pair of rollerblades, then yes.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 6 2011, 07:31 PM

What other flightless birds could you mutate into? Penguins? Dodo?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 6 2011, 07:34 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dromornithidae

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 6 2011, 07:38 PM

No, Machiavelli, I'm definitely not saying there should or could be full-magic SURGE flight. That's exactly my point: SURGE isn't that, therefore the flight isn't magic, therefore it's not possible for a humanoid without huge systemic changes.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 6 2011, 07:55 PM

How about you apologize Abstruse. That was a very rude comment.

If someone who is a furry, what makes them less desirable as player? You would rather have less players than allow someone who is a furry to play? You are rude.

========================================

Now on topic. If you want to have winged flight, you MUST have magic. Otherwise it's like everyone else is saying, the human body is not built for it.

Just make it like other metagenic qualities that have requirements. You can have a requirement for this quality be that the SURGEling must have a Magic 1 or greater. If they lose that Magic, then they can't fly or glide. The wings become dead weight.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 6 2011, 09:49 PM

There's no reason the wings couldn't be vestigial, as in a negative met. quality. Maybe you could use them as exotic melee weapons, maybe you can glide a little... Or maybe you're just what the Yakuza have been looking for for their new Bunraku experience.

Posted by: Pendaric Apr 6 2011, 11:06 PM

Spell knack levitate+ wings surge.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 6 2011, 11:19 PM

May as well make it a restricted Levitate [Self] spell.

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 7 2011, 12:55 AM

Found these little factoids when I was researching the flight structure of birds. Restructuring of the bones with a honeycomb like framework will lighten the bones by 60% with no decrease in strength. Raising the core body temperature has the side effect of strengthening muscle fiber and fast twitch nerve responses. So as a package I'd say the wings compensate for the weight loss of the bones keeping the mass of the body the same. Raising the body temp and metabilism as a side effect takes care of muscle strength, and the massive caloric intake required.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 7 2011, 01:30 AM

That's exactly what I meant by 'massive changes'. So, yes, if you can turn your bones into carbon fiber and re-jigger your metabolism… sure, it's easy.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 7 2011, 03:09 AM

'course it's easy. You can augment your body enough to crush tanks barehanded (more like BEARhanded), so why can't you reject your very nature and be reborn as a sky dwelling being?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 7 2011, 03:24 AM

Too different.

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 7 2011, 07:47 AM

Wings (Redux)

Cost: 10 or 20 BP

The character possesses a set of wings with a total span equal to three times their height.

Bone density or lacing will render the character to heavy to fly or glide.

At 10 BP they cannot fly only glide. But they are also immune to falling damage providing that they have room to spread their wings. Their speed is equal to their running speed. If they can catch thermal updrafts they can extend the distance they can glide.

For 20 BP their bodies have undergone radical restructuring to allow true flight. Their bones have reshaped into a honeycomb structure that lightens them by 50% which compensates for their weight of the wings. Weight is equal to the character pre-surge. Increased tensile strength in muscles has resulted in an elevated temperature that makes them easier to spot. They receive a -1D to hide against thermographics. Finally their metabolism increases to provide the energy necessary for flight. Add 20% to lifestyle costs for additional dietary requirements.

They fly at a rate of twice their running speed.

Celerity counts to increase flight speed as well, but leg enhancements do not. Speed can be further increased with a Flight check in the same way running does.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 7 2011, 08:55 AM

Winged flight would be quite useful, but comes with some significant downsides.

First, your flight is essentially nullified in constrained environments.
Second, you will very much receive the effects of Distinctive Style.

Your original version is actually much closer to what I designed, & quite a bit superior to the new one. With the given downsides, it's not worth 10BP for 'gliding'. The only possible justification for it costing 20BP is how SURGE qualities work, and that's largely the reason I would price it at 15BP instead of 10.

The flight rate of a fixed 50 meters per turn does not work well for Dwarf vs. Troll speeds; twice the character's base running rate is better.

Bone Density Augmentation specifically includes ligament strengthening, counteracting the increased weight; we can reasonably assume similar applies to Bone Lacing - there is no reason to include that specific exception.

Noting that leg enhancement's don't affect the speed is good, but is entirely unnecessary with a fixed movement rate, and would be better placed as a "(before any adjustments)" to a x2 speed or similar. Celerity does not affect any other creature's natural fly speed (such as shifters), and the description explicitly specifies legs & walking/running rates. There is no reason for it to apply to wing-based flight speeds.



Edit:
And for all the naysayers, it is a metagenetic quality. Many of which have similarly substantial biological changes, all of which require SURGE.
Many of the metagenetic qualities are crap. It would be nice to have a few more that are actually useful.

Wingspan would be better listed as "about 2.5 times the character's height (4 to 5 meters for most humans)."

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 7 2011, 10:51 AM

Sorry, i don´t get it. Possibly too much dope in my youth or anything like that. I thought we had basically the same opinion.^^

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 7 2011, 01:29 PM

Haha. It just sounded like you thought I said there *should* be a no-wings flight SURGE trait. I'm not. I'm saying that SURGE is (99%) about biological effects, but you'd either need magic or massive changes for this.

Muspellsheimr, you're right that winged flight would have huge penalties; I said so at the beginning. That's half the point against it right there. I don't think anyone's arguing that it'd be overpowered. Nor that it'd be bad to have more SURGE stuff. But I think you're wrong that there are many (any?) that are as transformative as non-magical humanoid flight would have to be.


Incidentally, I'm positive I've seen (crazy) people argue that Celerity/etc. applies to things like Drake flight… 'the RAW doesn't say it doesn't!'. Haha.

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 7 2011, 01:55 PM

For my newest character i bought 2 things that should help him survive better than through any other means possible (equipment, spells, armor, etc.)....it´s "common sense" and Edge on 5. Some people seemingly haven´t invested in one of these points. Guess which one i think about. ^^

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 20 2011, 02:37 AM

Augmented Attributes
10 BP per level

This metagenetic quality gives the character a plus one per level to their attribute that may break the normal limits up to 1.5 times the regular maximum. Each time it is purchased they must designate which attribute it affects. they may, with the GM's approval, purchase it up to five times for each attribute.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 03:00 AM

That already exists, and how're you getting 50 BP of qualities anyway?

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 20 2011, 03:06 AM

I'm using the metagenetic qualities to create new metavarients or sapient creature PC's. I assign them a BP total and build from there.

And what's the original ability called I must have missed it?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 03:09 AM

Metagenetic Improvement (Attribute), and it costs 20, max once per attrib. It just seems like a duplicate that costs half as much and can be taken 500% as much is… inappropriate?

Anyway, this one's used on a few metavariants; e.g. Fomori.

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 20 2011, 03:16 AM

Metagenetic Improvement (Attribute) Raises the minimum and maximum of the attribute it doesn't give you the point in the attribute.

But your right the cost is to low. Thinking of 10 up to the maximum and 20 if you break the normal max.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 03:23 AM

Oh. I misread yours. … Honestly, that's even worse. Each point of an attribute only costs 10BP in the first place (25 for the max point), and Exceptional Attribute is 20BP. So, you're combining 10 or 25 BP plus 20 BP (30-45) into… 10. Or 20, still no good.

I feel like 'increase the minimum' *is* a +1. Does anyone out there not read it that way? If it didn't raise the attribute, it would have the 'this doesn't actually raise the attribute' disclaimer that Exceptional Attrib and Genetic Optimization both have.

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 20 2011, 03:38 AM

Reedited for clarity. they can break the normal maximum up to 1.5 times. So a human could have up to a 9 in something, just like the normal rules for augmented attributes.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 03:47 AM

I dig: it's like Muscle Toner without that pesky surgery or Essence loss. Does it count as Augmented? Does it alter the Augmented Max? Does it cost as much as getting it with BP (or Karma, later)? It just seems like something that shouldn't exist, given the game mechanics. If it's just a 'race-building' rule, not intended for actual characters, then it's more understandable.

If it's not, though… the powergamers *already* rush to get Exceptional, Metagenic, and Genetic Improvement, and all of those are *much* worse deals.

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 20 2011, 03:57 AM

It counts as augmented. And I intended it as race building only, but if a GM wanted I don't see why they couldn't use it normally. As for the powergamers, they'll find a way to break the system no matter what we do, so I tend to ignore them.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 04:09 AM

Hehe, I agree, but that's no reason to help them. I'm not ragging on you, just comparing to the very similar options in the rules (including the normal attribute-raising mechanic).

Did you go ahead and run the numbers on the existing races/critters to see how their attribs measure up? I wonder.

Posted by: Kesendeja Apr 20 2011, 04:15 AM

For some of them, but there didn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason to the costs. Most got way more benefits than it should have cost. It worked out that it costs anywhere from 1/2 to 1/4 of the points to be the race as it does to actually build it. That included taking the negatives into account.

Posted by: Fyndhal Apr 20 2011, 05:12 PM

Regarding humanoids with wings:

This has been covered many times in science fiction, but for me the best example comes from John Varley's Titan -- not only does the book go into some detail on the necessary structural changes necessary to give the human body flight, it includes an illustration of the final product.

http://ammonra.org/gaea/art/books/freff/freffangels.jpg

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 20 2011, 05:15 PM

Wings are fun in Eclipse Phase. Not only are they cheap, but because most habitats have lower gravity than on Earth, you don't need to make any major changes to the body!