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Posted by: Elfenlied Apr 7 2011, 12:15 PM

Hello all,
I've got a quick question: If you're strapped for points (let's assume Karmagen), and had to choose a combat skill, what would it be? IMO, you can either choose a high automatics skills or a combination of a low pistols skill and a medium longarms skill. Now, each have their repective advantages:

Automatics:
+versatile (anything from +2 concealment to +6 concealment)
+high damage output through autofire
+cheaper (Karmawise)
-difficult to bypass hardened armor
-high ammo costs
-cannot compete in the high-end damage/range segment

Pistols+Longarms:
+even more versatile (anything from -4 to +6)
+high damage (Sniper Rifles, Shotguns)
+lower ammo costs
-more expensive (Longarms 4 + Pistols 2 costs the same as Automatics 5 (34 Karma), assuming you specialize)
-access to high caliber rifles will likely be difficult


Now, what do you guys at dumpshock think about it?

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 7 2011, 12:22 PM

Well, small arms have a HUGE plus with being concealable AND also accepted in many situations. No one ever looks at you wrong carrying agun in public. While an automatic weapon you have to smuggle around.

I would enter Heavy weapons into the count though.

- Has an "Sniper-Rifle category (Railgun, Panther etc.)
- Mass anti-personal or payload (Grenade Launcher)
- Pistol-Like anti-personal (Grenade pistol)
- Automatic Fire (LMG's and such)

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Apr 7 2011, 12:29 PM

What is wrong with the Firearms Group, again?

2 x 4 + 2 (spec) for rank 2 pistol (spec) + 4 x 4 + 2 (spec) = 28 build points, leaving you just two shy of rank 3 Firearms group, and just a couple of karma short of spec.

I never understand why people think it's cool to be God's gift to pistol shooting but, when passed a real firearm like a rifle, be about as useful as a drooling idiot.

Posted by: Elfenlied Apr 7 2011, 12:34 PM

Emphasis mine. Firearms 3 costs 35 Karma, compared to Longarms 4 + Pistols 2, which costs 30. Now, I'm not sure if the extra proficiency is worth the extra cost.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Apr 7 2011, 12:45 PM

I guess that, when I am strapped for points, I take skill groups at one rank lower than I would splitting that group for the sake of having a high and a low skill. I'd rather be versatile than over specialized when points-strapped. I mean, if firearms skills are where you are looking to save points, then you aren't a shooting character. Else, you'd be specifically spending your points there.

To reiterate, I have found Group 3 to be better than Skill-a 2, Skill-b 4.

Finally, I don't know the Karmagen rules well, but can you spec a group skill with it? If so, have your cake and eat it, too. Firearms Group 3 and spec into whatever you want from there.

Anyways, to the OP: automatics are hard to beat for versatility.

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 7 2011, 12:59 PM

It contains three skills rather than four. All of the three count skill groups are narrowly tailored in the sense that you need to use or have reason to expect to use all three skills in order to justify the cost. The four count skill groups also require the use or reason to use three skills but you at least have some variance within the group.

If you are strapped for points, as the original poster is, it's generally a bad idea to take an option that requires MORE points unless it can allow you to reduce points needed elsewhere.



Honestly, I don't like the Firearms skill group. Of all the three count skill groups, it's probably one of the least versatile that is of interest to PCs. On any given run you're most likely to use one skill in the group rather than more than one. If you use two it's almost always going to be Pistol + Automatics or Pistol + Longarm. Rarely is it going to be Longarm + Automatics. Using all three is going to be exceedingly rare. If you're looking for versatility, the firearms group may be better replaced with skill wires and activesofts.

Also, this may just be my interpretation, you cannot acquire specializations on a skill group unless you raise one of the skills outside of the group. So there is no gameplay difference between Firearms(4) and Skillwires with Active Softs (4) for Pistols/Automatics/Longarms.

--

As to the OP's question.

Without the context of what you want your character to do, my instinct to save points is to go straight longarms or straight automatics. If you're dead set on getting pistols with longarms then I would do 1 rank with a specialization rather than 2 ranks. That's a benefit of +4 dice over defaulting and you save 2 karma over going with automatics 5.

Pistol 1 (Spec) + Longarms 4 (Spec) = 32 Karma
Automatics 5 (Spec) = 34 Karma

Posted by: Elfenlied Apr 7 2011, 01:07 PM

The character in question is hacker/rigger, who is in need of a weapon skill for those missions where she needs to run in the meat. She's a secondary combatant.

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 7 2011, 01:12 PM

My suggestion is take Throwing Weapons 4 and specialize in pistols*.

* This is an internal joke with my group's hacker who had a pistol with bad agility and no pistol skill.

--

Serious responses.

If you're going on runs in the meat, why is concealment a desired trait? You're in a location you shouldn't be in. If you've been spotted concealment doesn't matter. Concealment is a trait when you're moving in places you could be in and are trying to hide a weapon you shouldn't have or when you're hiding a weapon on your person while engaged in social engineering. I'm not sure if either of those situations apply to your need for a weapon.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 7 2011, 01:22 PM

Don't forget to go find the last thread about this exact question.

I still say Automatics. It's one skill.

Posted by: squee_nabob Apr 7 2011, 01:27 PM

I'd suggest either automatics or pistols + heavy weapons. Heavy weapons are much like longarms but better in terms of firepower, and a pistol with stick n shock is pretty good for a sidearm. If you were to go automatics, you'd want:

Machine Pistol,
either SMG or AR depending on your recoil compensation. Do you have a gyromount in a cyberarm? if yes, you can go SMG, otherwise go AR. Either way pick up the speciality guns like the executive predator (it is a briefcase with an SMG in it). You can also get guns like the ingram smartgun X which has a built in suppressor and is only restricted if you want, or the ingram mach 100 (high velocity at a reasonable price).

For Pistols + Heavy Weapons:
Burst firing pistol. Several of these exist.
AK-98, cammo coated, reduced barrel for your grenade launcher
add missiles, rockets, or assault cannons as needed. I am personally not a big fan of HMGs, but you may differ.
If you are abusing MRSI (i.e. using) software, grab an automatic grenade launcher and that solves all your problems.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 7 2011, 02:29 PM

HMGs have their place, But Shadowruns have to be mobile, so they're not usually on Shadowruns.

Of course, there are some groups that swear by Mortars...

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Apr 7 2011, 03:31 PM

I would recommend either Automatics or Pistols + Heavy Weapons due to the dominance of burst fire and especially automatic fire in SR. It isn't too hard to get at least 5 RC on an automatic (Gas Vent 3 + Personalized Grip/sling + innate/stock) so you can do two burst fire shots. Since you're using SnS (who doesn't?), that's 8S -1/2 AP damage which is on par with most longarms. If you can get more recoil compensation (arm gyromount or extra mods), you can do long burst + short burst FA for 11S and 8S -1/2 AP which is even better. With work you can do HV, that's 11S and 11S -1/2AP. If you have trouble hitting, you can switch from narrow to wide bursts to decrease the target's dodge pool. There are a few pistols that can do burst fire, but they typically can't do full auto or have great problems getting enough recoil compensation due to limited modification and accessories choices.

Automatics are fairly concealable so you have your damage and your concealment too. With Chameleon Coating and concealable holster, that's -5 to spot. Since an automatic pistol has a +2 base and a SMG has a +4 base, you can easily reach default light or heavy pistol concealability. While pistols obviously can go much lower, this should be more than "good enough". Otherwise, you couldn't just have a heavy pistol in a concealable holster. If they are using MAD or cyberware scanners, you're in equal trouble pistol or assault rifle so that doesn't matter. There's also the Executive Protector which is a SMG disguised as a briefcase which is quite handy.

Longarms have an easier time getting though hardened armor. However, this advantage is much smaller than it seems. The Barrett can affect hardened armor up to 6 points higher than an AK-97. However, the AK user can switch to wide burst and call shot for +4 DV and that narrows the gap to merely 2. In addition, this covers fairly expensive and illegal Barrett 121 versus a fairly easy to get, legal, and cheaper AK-97. If you're using SnS, then skill is what really matters not DV since you can force that Hussar or LAV to shut down with a good enough shot.

If you remove SnS (which while sober I agree is a valid opinion), things become a bit murkier. SnS is the great equalizer in damage codes and without it base damage matters which hinders the "my heavy combat gun is my conceal gun" appeal that Automatics has. I'll cover the Pistol + Heavy Weapons combo and its appeal in a later post.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 7 2011, 03:38 PM

Automatics is a Good One, no doubt. After all, Anything a Pistol can do a Machine Pistol can do too (except for the Concealability) ... Same for Assault Rifles and Rifles.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 7 2011, 03:45 PM

Except that nothing stops the barret user from calling a shot for that same +4 to DV.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 7 2011, 03:48 PM

Dubious, at best. The combined rationale of Spraying and praying (Wide Burst to reduce their ability to react) and Calling a Shot (for better accuracy) is a bit ludicrous, don't you think? It would never fly at our table.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 7 2011, 04:08 PM

This.

Also a grenade launcher is multipurpose. You need to knock a group of people out (but can't use a stunball), use narcojet gas grenades. You need to take out that drone, use a HE grenade. You want to take care of a bunch of beasties, use a frag grenade.

All this in a small package. You just have to carry the clips for it.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 7 2011, 04:13 PM

Neruostun. Narcojet is an injection chemical. Of course, mixing with DMSO is a good idea.

The flipside is that ammo for grenade launchers is really bloody expensive, and not as easy to get. You can't just skip into the local Stuffer Shack to pick up some boxes of 40mm Grenades like you can .45 ACCP for your Colt Cobra.

Or, if you're lucky, the drive-thru. "I'm two blocks away, I want a pair of SoySloppies with extra relish, three Q-Cola TrollGulps, and a box of 10mm Caseless. You guys want anything?"

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 7 2011, 04:20 PM

Buy Firearms group. The first thing you can do once you start earning Karma is buy specializations. This is of course assuming that you're playing a game that isn't all running all the time. You need that Pistols skill whenever you have to go out in public.

As for the "what's the most versatile," my answer is Automatics. It covers everything from machine pistols to assault rifles, and works for full auto as well as single shots.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 7 2011, 04:21 PM

The most versatile weapon my group has found is the Metahuman Body.

Especially if you bring your own Dwarf trained in unarmed combat.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 7 2011, 04:26 PM

Or a Dwarf with a pointy helmet for the Troll to use with his Thrown Weapons skill.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Apr 7 2011, 04:51 PM

While true, there is the -4 to hit that the automatics can trivially compensate for. The end result is the same, there's a narrow band of armor values where sniper rifles can hurt that automatics can't. However, you rapidly get beyond both firearm's penetration values so it doesn't matter which you use. If you're below that range, automatics do more damage due to how automatic fire works. So longarms are better at a subset of a subset of targets (trying to destroy vehicles with armor scores between X and Y). There's also the wide full auto burst, called shot to bypass armor, longshot test that lets you just blow away a panzer too even with otherwise meager edge scores (which would be harder for a longarm to do since it can't reduce the defense test of the target).



I've always assumed it's firing in a cone in the area of the called shot. You're not expecting every bullet to hit that spot, just one even if the target moves or your first shot is off. Also a wide burst isn't spraying and praying. Skill still matters and can allow for more damage. It's merely not going for as tight a grouping.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 7 2011, 04:57 PM

Bad assumption. Wide Burst are automatic weapons fire. If you are using "Wide" there is no semblance of Grouping at all. Try it sometime. If you are Aiming, you are not firing Wide.

Posted by: Belvidere Apr 7 2011, 06:32 PM

Or a Troll with a pointy hat and your dwarf adept throwing friend.

Remember kids, metahuman bodies do (body/2)S

Posted by: KeyMasterOfGozer Apr 7 2011, 08:03 PM

What about Gunnery instead? If you are a Hacker/Rigger, then maybe you can run a drone to do your shooting for you?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 7 2011, 08:18 PM

That hardly counts, but I think it was an option on the poll in the last version of this exact thread.

Posted by: KeyMasterOfGozer Apr 7 2011, 08:44 PM

Heh, yeah, well being a Computer hardware and software developer myself, I can tell you, our mindset usually falls along the lines of ... Never do what you can write a shell script to do... even if it takes you ten times as long to write the script.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Apr 7 2011, 09:05 PM

I think there is a range between "all 6 bullets or no hit someone in the eye" and "vaguely point at the right direction" in an abstract system like Shadowrun. There's also suppressive fire for when you're not trying to aim at all and appropriately skill matters far less there. Skill matters even when firing wide (extra hits add to damage) so there has to be some aiming involved.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 7 2011, 09:21 PM

I'd just toss out Wide Bursts. They don't really make a whole lot of sense when you consider suppressive fire.

Posted by: widdlyskwids Apr 7 2011, 09:59 PM

Stick-n-Shock is 6S(e), not 8S(e).

In my opinion, it's kind of questionable that you could get any kind of bonus from a concealable holster for an SMG-sized firearm. How would it be any different in effect from a sling? Setting that aside, I think you would need to apply a chameleon coating to the holster as well if you wanted to receive the full bonus from the gun. (Unless the concealable holster completely covers the gun, in which case I don't see how the coating would come into play at all.) Additionally, I wouldn't allow any bonus from the coating if a character is being patted down during a physical search. Hands don't have eyes.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 7 2011, 10:00 PM

Again... The assumption is that you hit with ONLY a single bullet with Wide Bursts. Since no additional damage is inflicted by increasing the number of bullet impacts. Instead, you are increasing the chances to hit because you are spraying an area and hoping something actually hits. Yes, net hits still apply. for the round that hits. Notice that the damage is no less if you Fire a Single Shot vs. a Wide Burst... Still base damage + net hits (as opposed to a Narrow Burst which DOES add additional damage because it assumed that more than a single bullet impacts).

Suppressive fire is a lot different, because not even Net Hits matters in the damage calculation. Net hits raise Threshold instead. And suppressive fire is not really designed to inflict damage. It is designed to inflict a situational penalty to keep your opponents head down so that you can maneuver to a more favorable position with out them shooting you.

Suppressive Fire is not the Same as a Wide burst.

I would not allow a Called Shot Wide Burst, It is not thematic to what you are doing. You want to call a shot with Burst Fire, use a Narrow Burst.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 7 2011, 11:52 PM

Psh. You're using a wide burst to be *sure* to hit that one weak spot with *one* bullet. It's quite obvious. A narrow burst called shot would get +4 *and* +burst DV. This is different. You're paying -4 DP, so you obviously are aiming. Fair's fair.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2011, 02:04 AM

See, Functionally, I disagree... Having fired Many Tens of Thousands of rounds, from many different weapons, I just do not agree with that concept.

It is a Silly little pet peeve of mine.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 8 2011, 02:36 AM

My semi-informed opinion is that if you're not trying to hit the target (which you're not, because you're spraying around him instead of directly at him), then you're not trying to hit the target. Area fire seems more like the mechanics for suppressive fire, to me.

SR3 avoided this issue by having burst fire and full-auto attacks step up the dodge target by 1 for every 3 bullets fired, as well as the damage resistance target and damage code. Side note: burst fire in SR3 was ridiculously awful to be caught in. I had a security guard practically saw the mage's right arm off with an HK227 once.

I see SR4's point in making it more damage or harder to dodge, but I think suppressive fire covers the second condition well enough that you don't need to also do wide bursts. Especially since you can catch multiple people and block access to whole areas with one suppressive fire action, and there's no -9 penalty to your roll.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 8 2011, 02:41 AM

If you wanna change the rules, change them. Don't 'interpret' them to be different based on personal logic.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 8 2011, 02:54 AM

I'm not changing the rules on Wide Bursts, I just don't see much of a point to them. If you've got enough dice to burn 9 of them on making it harder to dodge, you're probably just as well off (or better) just firing a single shot.

If I were going to change the rules, I would split the difference between -dodge and +DV somehow, but I haven't put a lot of thought into that.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 8 2011, 03:05 AM

There are also 3 and 6 bursts, and you shouldn't have RC 0. Duh. Also, you probably have more Shoot dice than they have Dodge dice, so you're trading DV for greater *surety* of hitting. It's certainly a situational choice, but some of those situations are key. Shooting a vehicle or a spirit, for example, is the difference between a useless Narrow burst and a useful Wide Burst. *shrug* If I'm using SnS, it's more important to land *a* hit than a huge Narrow hit, because I want to apply the shock -2, and force a Disorientation test. See? Options are good. Called Shot is another, wholly independent option.

I actually wrote up an alternate system that collapses Wide and Narrow bursts together. It's simpler, and has worked acceptably in very limited playtesting. It's similar to the SR3 way, I guess, though it's been so long since I played SR3. You can search for it if you want, I posted it around here.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 8 2011, 03:24 AM

I found this:

Just to make sure I get it, an example:

Joebob fires his White Knight LMG. He has an Agility + Heavy Weapons pool of 10, which includes his smartlink. He's using the stock, so he gets 6 points of RC. The gun has a DV of 6P.

If he fires a full auto burst of 10 bullets, he gets a dice pool of 10 +9 - ( (9-6)x2 ) = 13, and does 9P damage.

This would be instead of a dice pool of 10 - ( (9-6)x2 ) = 4, and doing 15P for a narrow burst, or inflicting -9 on the dodge attempt for a wide burst.

That about right?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 8 2011, 03:38 AM

Let's not mess up this (admittedly duplicate) thread about Versatile Weapon Skills, but…

I forget which version I eventually settled on. The weaker option, I think. Using a heavy weapon complicates things (x2 uncomp recoil), as you know.

Otherwise, looks about right. In simulations using the mooks from SR4A, it should produce successful attack rate and damage totals some where in *between* the existing Wide and Narrow options. You do gain a little from not 'wasting' the extra Wide penalty, and it *is* harder to clean dodge… it's all in the thread. I can dig up the spreadsheet, if you like.
--

I still say Automatics are best, simply because they're the most effective in the most *common* situations.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 8 2011, 03:43 AM

The spreadsheet's not necessary, I can see how it would work out in various situations, and it seems pretty reasonable. I'd probably prefer it to RAW, as well.

And I concur that Automatics are the most versatile.

Posted by: Cain Apr 8 2011, 04:03 AM

You obviously haven't done much hunting, then. Calling a shot with burst fire or a shotgun with birdshot is a common practice.

Anyway, I'm going to go Pistols on this one. They're cheap, easily obtainable, legal in most areas, and can do a lot of what you want them for. As a backup combatant, you don't need the power punch of a heavy weapon or longarm; if you do need a bigger kick, go for called shots and specialized ammo. If you really want to cause a mess, load any hold-out with SnS and go to town.

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 8 2011, 12:18 PM

Honestly, I never even thought of doing that! If I ever get to play my weapons expert again, I'll have to do that more often when I'm carrying burst fire shotguns.

Posted by: wanderer_king Apr 8 2011, 12:57 PM

On a rigger any way (assuming your a drone rigger with a half decent setup on combat rigging) I would go gunnery. Gunnery is all weapons attached to a drone, regardless of what skill normally would normally apply to the gun, allowing an unmatched versatility. There are many cheap drones out there allowing a decent range of selection of drone bodies, and allow you to purchase multiple drones, each with a different weapons payload. If you rigger is a wheelman and not setup for drone rigging, defenitly go automatics (depending of course on the house rules in play.) You may want to talk to your gamemaster about what specific house rules/rules interpretation are in use. For example at our table automatics only comes into play when a gun is being fired in an automatic fire mode (burst fire, full burst.)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2011, 01:32 PM

Well, lets see, I have hunted for well over 30 years... And I am sorry, I do not send Automatic weapons fire into my flight of geese or ducks. One Shot. Maybe Two.

Calling a Shot with Burst Fire is NOT common in any place that I have ever hunted (How many Automatic Weapons do YOU hunt with routinely? I know a BATF person who would like to speak with you).

Sorry, but I do not generally hunt with automatic weapons. Shotguns are their own issue, since there is more than a single chunk of lead coming down range with a single shot. I do agree that it is harder to avoid, especially with shotguns with Cylinder Chokes. Which is why they use the Wide Burst Mechanic. Not because they are firing more than a single round, but Because it makes it harder to avoid the shot. However, it still remains that a shotgun is NOT using a Burst Fire to set this up, unless it is (an Automatic Shotgun, which you only find in the military, and is not a hunting weapon, unless you are hunting people).

Same goes for Land based animal hunting, including People. Spraying Automatic weapons fire is for keeping someones head down. Targeted narrow groups are the purview of what SR4 calls Narrow Burst. 3 rounds, AIMED, on target. A wide burst is to put rounds in the General Direction in the Hopes that you can actually hit someone that is trying not to be. It is a completely different mecahnic from the target narrow burst of the Spec Ops team trying to eliminate their target. Suppressive fire is neither of the two.

-----

As for weapon Choice. I prefer Pistols, but Automatics is often hard to pass up for its versatility.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Apr 8 2011, 01:39 PM

I'm factoring in narrow burst bonus damage into those calculations so 6S(e) + 2 is 8S(e). Honestly if SnS didn't get bonus damage from narrow bursts, it'll help a great deal to keeping them in line. Sadly that's a houserule.

As for concealable holster for SMGs, it's fair to allow it. There are plenty of small SMGs out there in real life and while they all have +4 concealment mod, that's still concealable. As for no penalty from chameleon coating for pat downs, while not RAW, I agree with you. However, that's still not that much a difference. Since concealment modifiers are halved, a SMG is only +2 dice over a heavy pistol and 3 over a light pistol. A machine pistol with the oddly restricted shortened barrel mod is as concealable as a heavy pistol. A similarly modded SMG is +1 over a heavy pistol and +2 over a light pistol. Also a lot of concealment boils down to the opposed palming check so if you want to hide anything, you better invest in that.

There's a difference, but it's so minor for the larger degree of options and power you get out of it. Automatics isn't a case of being the best of every niche. It's got a solid answer to every common situation a shadowrunner will find himself in while being among the best at the majority of shadowrun combats (SnS spam against living beings).

I'm assuming you already have Gunnery and are just looking into an option for when you have to show up in the meat. If not, follow the advice of the others and grab that first. Something you use rarely isn't as important as something you'll use most of the time. Also, if you have a respectable Agility score, you might be able to skip buying a skill and just default. Between smartlinks and tacnets (up to 6 dice), you might have decent enough roll to just live with it and use the karma elsewhere. I would aim for a reliable dice pool of 12 before doing this though. That way, you have a 70% chance of hitting a Renraku Red Samurai (Reaction 7). If you wide burst, you can go lower (much lower if you wide long burst).

Posted by: Cain Apr 9 2011, 08:53 AM

I could point you at any number of NRA events, but why bother? I'll just call Bulldrek on this one and let it be.

Anyway, pistols. Yes, I agree with you on pistols. I don't find automatics to be especially versatile, although they do occupy the niche between pistols and automatic heavy weapons.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Apr 9 2011, 01:16 PM

Hunting is not target shooting, and neither is combat.

What you might do at one, you often would never do at another.

Before I moved to NY from Texas and had to give up my guns, I also hunted regularly. Never have I seen hunters using burst fire at animal targets, even the ones I knew had FFL title 2 licenses. I will qualify this that when I say hunting, I mean going into the woods with at most a handful of other people and spending hours either stalking or sitting in a blind waiting.

Saw it plenty at shooting events, but those were mostly directed at targets like paper bullseyes and junk cars. I tend to put those NRA events where a whole mob of shooters is gathered in a fixed firing area to shoot released birds or other game into this category, as it's not really hunting in my eyes. It's target shooting, just with moving targets.

I have never been in actual gun combat so I cannot speak to that situation.





-k

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 9 2011, 02:55 PM

NRA Events ARE NOT HUNTING... I thought that you knew that Cain.



Indeed...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 9 2011, 03:36 PM

It's not called a 'niche' when it's huge.

Posted by: Seerow Apr 9 2011, 04:00 PM

Sure it is, it's just a big niche.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 9 2011, 05:00 PM

What's the most versatile weapon skill?

The one you have to use whatever is available after you've been severely beaten and left for dead while the ghouls come up to eat your bones...

Posted by: Cain Apr 9 2011, 05:08 PM

Tell them that. Preferably, at an event. I'll be there with popcorn.

But like I said, bulldrek. I don't believe you when you say you know anything about hunting, period.


That's pistols. You're not likely to have an automatic hidden on your person, safe from the squatters pouring over your near-corpse.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 9 2011, 05:10 PM

Or Clubs. Or Knives. Or Unarmed. Or Running.

I suggest Running. Running is always good.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 9 2011, 06:55 PM

I'll have a machine pistol. Why are you even in that situation?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Apr 9 2011, 11:17 PM

I've said as much, at an NRA turkey shoot in Arkansas. Publicly. It's a target shooting event, not hunting. I didn't get a whole lot of disagreement, except from a couple of heavy guys that looked like they hadn't stalked a kill in their lives. They had nice fancy guns, though.

To me it ain't hunting unless you're deep in the woods for hours and hours. And you can't effectively stalk prey in a group larger than, say, 4. You just can't.



-k

Posted by: UmaroVI Apr 10 2011, 01:34 AM

Because you brought a holdout pistol to an assault rifle fight, obviously.

Posted by: Cain Apr 10 2011, 02:27 AM

I make it a point to not argue with a group with more heavy armament than the Tijuana National Guard.

On a more serious note, who's to say what is and isn't hunting? Our modern definition was largely classified by Hemmingway. Why shouldn't the new definition come from the NRA? To put it in Shadowrun terms, with paracritters becoming more powerful, why wouldn't hunting with heavy weapons be considered more acceptable?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Apr 10 2011, 04:07 AM

Eh, I'm a member of that group. Although admittedly since moving I've let my membership lapse to the free Associate level.

"What is hunting" is something debated regularly in the association. Some feel like I do, some don't.

I personally have no problem with target shooting. It's fun. I just don't consider it hunting.

Then again, one reason for the "it's all hunting!" argument is to justify having all sorts of weapons in civilian ownership. I don't tend to buy the need for that, as it's my opinion that the right to own firearms goes far beyond mere hunting.

Then again, I've been unpopular in gun groups because I espouse safety training as a requirement for a gun license - you want a weapon, fine, but you damn well better have training in it's use and safety.




-k

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2011, 03:17 PM

Your Mistake, not mine.

Posted by: whatevs Apr 10 2011, 04:42 PM

Well... my dad can beat up your dads!

Most versatile firearms skill for non-shooting characters has got to be the firearms group. Otherwise, autos.

P.s. Just because you don'thave a pistol skill, doesn't mean you can't carry one as backup.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2011, 05:32 PM

Heh... Interesting Take, especially for a Non-Shooting Character...



This is very true indeed...

Posted by: Cain Apr 10 2011, 09:21 PM

That's quite an investment for a non-shooting character, though. Picking up a level or two of pistols + spec is the same or cheaper and gives greater benefit.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 11 2011, 02:28 AM

Gunnery rules all, but when you can't bring a vehicle with you, I'd say pistols for black trenchcoat, automatics for pink mohawk.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 11 2011, 02:57 AM

Bah, i stand by my opinion:

Let one dude have have "Heavy Weapons".
He carries:
two MGL-6 grenade pistols akimbo, airburst link. Frag and neurostun. For personal defense BWAHAHA, sorry.
A Panther, Thunderstruck or similar for sniping and against heavy single targets.
an Ares White-Knight for multiple squishies or surpressing fire.

Ah hell, you know what let us just prop the White Knight as an underbarral weapon onto the assault cannon. (Is it smaller...?) YEAH for insanity.

And if something tries to get away... run to the car, pop up the trunk, get the Vogeljäger out and shoot them down with an intelligent "Inferno Missile"

All this destruction with just one skill.

Seriously though: Heavy Weapons easily beats "Longarms" and "Automatics" in their respective specialities AND provides are damage AND indirect fire AND intelligent fire-and-forget weaponry. Just concealment isn't really in there.

Posted by: Squinky Apr 11 2011, 03:20 AM

For a Hacker looking to be decent at backup combat, Pistol skill all the way. The pack a Taser. They are insanely good.

Of course, Sns is banned in my games, so I appreciate it more.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 11 2011, 03:26 AM

Yeah, tasers are wonderful when SnS isn't available. I also fixed the electricity rules to be less OP (and more KISS to boot):

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 11 2011, 11:27 AM

I can see his logic, but that mostly because I don't feel the rules allow you to take specializations for skills in a skill group unless you have independently raised that skill outside of the group. I don't think the wording is there to support it, nor do I think the fluff of skill groups even makes allowances for specialization. How can you specialize in something when you've dedicated your time to learning a broad range.

Posted by: Cain Apr 11 2011, 01:28 PM

By RAW, you can break a skill group at any time the GM allows. If you choose to do so at chargen, and the GM is cool with it, you can get a group and then specialize for cheap.

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 11 2011, 01:44 PM

Where does it say that? The only line I could find about breaking up a skill group was on page 84 and 270 of SR4a.

During Char-gen
Pg 84 - "Skill groups may not be broken up into individual skills for further improvement and specializations may not be taken for skill group skills at character creation--although, as always, individual gamemasters are free to allow this option."

After Char-gen
Pg 270 - "If a character improves any skill in a skill group individually instead of improving the group, the remaining skills are treated as individual skills with individual levels from that point--in other words, the skill group no longer exists."

There are also numerous statements in the book that specializations are not allowed for skill groups.

Page 84 leads me to to no other conclusion that the GM allowed to break up a skill group at character generation is only to allow you to take, for example, Firearms 3 with Longarms 5 during character creation. At that point, you're allowed to take specializations since you're considered to have the individual skills.

The only way to break up a skill group is to raise one skill up out of it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 11 2011, 02:19 PM

It specifically says "individual gamemasters are free to allow this option", and Cain said "any time the GM allows"/"the GM is cool with it". Sounds like a match to me.

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 11 2011, 02:52 PM

"Any time" isn't the same as "at character creation". It's certainly not the same as "when you raise a skill outside of the skill group".

That GM may allow quote is pretty much solely for the reason at character creation it isn't unlikely that past experiences may have lead a character from generalization. In other words, it's treating the character as a fluid entity rather than a static one at character creation. The rules are pretty clear. The only way to break up a skill group is to raise a skill outside of the group. At that point you may then start gaining specializations in those skills.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 11 2011, 03:13 PM

… except for also whenever the GM allows. Duh. No one's saying it RAW, but you can't possible deny that the GM can do it, exactly as the rules suggest.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 11 2011, 03:59 PM

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and suggest that "any time the GM allows it" means "any time the GM damn well pleases because he's running this show." It's like the short form or something.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 11 2011, 04:12 PM

I'd probably allow it, for example. The real optimizers wouldn't be investing in multiple Firearms skills anyway. For other groups, it might be more abusive, but I'd generally be happy for the generalizing.

Posted by: Achsin Apr 11 2011, 04:59 PM

By my reading, it says that during character creation you can't do Firearms group 4, then raise Automatics to 6 without GM consent, or take that Firearms 4 and then stick the spec hold-out on pistols, unless the GM says you can.

In the After Char-gen area it says that anytime you improve a skill from a group (I'd count specializing in something as improving) the group no longer exists. So instead of Firearms 4 you have Automatics 4, Longarms 4 and pistols (Hold-outs+2) 4. I'd say you could still raise it as a group, since they are all the same rank, but you would lose the spec in the process.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 11 2011, 05:03 PM

That all seems fair. The group rules *are* (apparently) intended to preclude abuse, but GM approval exists for a good reason.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 11 2011, 07:32 PM

I'm still trying to figure out how the SPAS-12 and SPAS-15 (And Shadowrun's SPAS-22) are "Sporting Purpose".

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 11 2011, 07:39 PM

Depends on how you define 'sport'.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 11 2011, 07:43 PM

Semi-Automatic Shotguns, for those really aggressive deer?

"Special Purpose" is the other suggestion for the name. Both have been used, apparently. I'm not sure which is used officially, as it's an Italian company, and I can't even read French that well.

Posted by: Cain Apr 11 2011, 08:21 PM

Emphasis mine.

If your GM wants to allow you to buy a skill group at one, break it, then buy specs for the individual skills, that is his right. That pretty much ends the argument.

Posted by: Doc Chase Apr 11 2011, 08:58 PM

For quail hunters who need to bag their quota in one flush.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 11 2011, 11:41 PM

Or people hunting Awakened Dire Wolves ^_^

Posted by: Modular Man Apr 12 2011, 12:38 AM

I second this.
After all, Automatics is the most versatile skill when it comes to the use of different weapon sizes (I agree on Heavy Weapons, but they are still damn huge!).
Pistols, on the other hand, are more handy when it comes to concealability and legal issues. Tasers are completely legal, after all. Pistols of most sizes won't raise as much suspicion as any automatic weapon, as said before.
A hacker with a small dicepool is unlikely to compensate for long bursts or fully automatic fire that good anyway, even with much recoil compensation (yet, also more of that possible for automatics).
Hackers also generally are not quite suited for large firefights and dodging/taking dozens of bullets. In such cases, I usually send drones in first. With my rigger, I will definitely go for a mix of the Pistols and Gunnery skills.
A little min/maxing advice on the side: The "semi-automatic" specialisation for Pistols is way useful, if you're allowed to use it for every semi-automatic pistol in the game. Food for thought (GMs, as well) .

Posted by: Tyro Apr 12 2011, 12:45 AM

Gas grenades and gas masks

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 12 2011, 11:31 AM

Context matters. That's character creation rules. No such lines exist during character improvement. The rules, by RAW, don't make the allowance for a GM to allow you to break up a skill group at ANY TIME. Just during character creation.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 12 2011, 11:37 AM

It makes sense to allow it, though. I certainly would.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 12 2011, 01:47 PM

That's insane. Even if the GM couldn't already let you do literally anything at any time, it just says 'improved'; we're sure that adding a spec isn't 'improving'?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 12 2011, 02:11 PM

Got to Agree here... Adding a Specialization IS improving, no doubt about that.

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 12 2011, 03:15 PM

It's not.

Pg270 - "In between adventures, players can learn new skills, improve existing ones, or master specializations."

Improving skills and specializations are differentiated.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 12 2011, 03:17 PM

Although it's not written, they can also hang out in strip clubs and get drunk.

...

Just saying.

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 12 2011, 03:27 PM

Aren't there rules for intoxication?

...

Just saying.

I'm not saying that I agree with the rules in this instance. This is just how I interpret them and how I believe they are meant to be stated. Sometimes the rules are restrictive to the point where almost everyone agrees to lax restrictions somewhat.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 12 2011, 03:34 PM

Or they, you know, just interpret them differently...

Posted by: CanRay Apr 12 2011, 03:36 PM

Yep. AND STIs!

Posted by: Achsin Apr 12 2011, 04:38 PM

Well, yeah, there is a difference between increasing the ranks in a skill and "mastering" a specialization. But' I'd say that both are improvements to the skill as far as being able to break a skill group goes. Otherwise we run into the situation where the guy who bought Firearms to rank 6 is permanently unable to specialize in any of them without getting the Aptitude quality and raising one of the individual skills to 7 first, and woe unto him if he already has the Aptitude quality for a skill not in Firearms. While the other guy who bought up the skills individually to 6 (say he went about mastering Pistols then Automatics, then Longarms) can then get specializations for each of the rank 6 skills if he feels like it.

I vote that all future sourcebooks be written in mathematical logic, instead of a subjective language, so as to avoid any confusion. Although that would make the books a little harder to read through.

Posted by: Whipstitch Apr 12 2011, 05:35 PM

I'm by no means a right to bear arms grognard, but as someone who hunts and knows shotguns the reasoning behind why people can't import a Franchi SPAS-12 is honestly a pretty moronic double standard. I say that because I already own a 12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun myself that was actually designed to keep more rounds at the ready than a SPAS-12 does. Why? Well, because it's convenient. I may not ever stick 6 rounds in the air at once, but it's not really unusual to take a couple shots in a row while hunting geese either. Really, the thing that makes SPAS-12s and similar dual action (Semi-auto & pump action-- Not even the SR SPAS is full auto) shotguns attractive to law enforcement and military groups is that the pump action is really nice if for whatever reason the weapon fails to cycle automatically, something that's fairly common with lower pressure rounds like beanbags and the like. Really, the biggest thing that hurts the Franchi is that politicians see it and think "Wow, it comes in Scary Black standard!". From a mechanical perspective, there's little reason why they couldn't just make Franchi owners use a magazine plug. It's what many of us are already having to do with other semi-automatic weapons.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 12 2011, 05:40 PM

"It looks militaristic" is a legitimate reason in the minds of gun control nuts. A bayonet lug is reason enough to claim a firearm is a "Military Weapon". Even if it's a bloody flintlock!

And now, back to skills and away from the politics.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 12 2011, 06:53 PM

Having improving skills and mastering specializations listed separately in one sentence doesn't imply that they're not both 'improving' in that *other* sentence, either. You could read it that way… if it were a document that went by that standard. We have ample evidence that it's not.

Posted by: Cain Apr 12 2011, 07:22 PM

If you want to get silly about it, it's talking about players, not characters.

But seriously, adding a specialization is distinctly improving a skill. You're rolling more dice, you've gotten better at it. If specializations hurt you somehow, like they used to in SR2, then you might have a point.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 12 2011, 07:51 PM

I don't really care what RAW says in this instance; I go with common sense.

[Edit:] For the record, I consider common sense to be allowing a player to break groups after chargen.

Posted by: Marcus Apr 14 2011, 12:57 AM

As was discussed above, If you read under specializations (Page 84, 20th Ed.) it specifically says you can't specialize a skill group. So it comes down to whether you feel like what is said on Page 270, 20th Ed., under improving existing skills sub-heading Skill Groups, in fact does mean you break skill groups by adding something to one individual skill? I absolutely think you can break the group after creation, to do things like add specialties. Part of the point of character development that gaining experienced should represent would be getting better with those things the character uses everyday, and on every run.

Just my 2