Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Audious Apr 11 2011, 09:46 PM

I'm gonna be running a 4E game, but I wanna run it with magic/metatypes being rare and unavailable to PCs, I also wanna run with lower essence, and they won't be purchasing wealth or equipment at chargen other than cybernetics.

They're both waking up in a one-person coffin in Hong Kong and will be taken care of once they get out.

How many BP should I have them start with? I want them to be competent scumbags, but not super-villains.

Posted by: Doc Chase Apr 11 2011, 09:48 PM

No gear, no magic? Eh, 300.

Posted by: Nifft Apr 11 2011, 10:26 PM

I have no problem wanting more than 400 BP even when designing a no-magic, no-'ware, cheaply equipped ganger.

I suggest 400 BP.

Posted by: Audious Apr 11 2011, 10:30 PM

Yeah, but then all of those points just go into skills and attributes. 400 BP allows for some pretty nasty dudes.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 11 2011, 11:20 PM

600 Karma. Maybe even 550. BP, even at low levels, allows you to min/max more than is really appropriate for a lower-power campaign.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 11 2011, 11:28 PM

Hobo with a Shotgun?

Posted by: MikeKozar Apr 11 2011, 11:45 PM

Would it make sense to give them the BP limit and a budget for cyberware separate from that? You have a 275BP character with 25k in chrome?

Posted by: Tyro Apr 11 2011, 11:45 PM

Makes sense to me

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 11 2011, 11:47 PM

Dang. I was going to suggest 400 BP in the hopes you wouldn't catch that.
It brings me near tears when I hear about charGen nerfing like this. I might as well play an NPC.

Posted by: Doc Byte Apr 12 2011, 12:00 AM

Maybe you should dump BP-Gen and use the old school priority system found in RC instead.

Posted by: Cain Apr 12 2011, 12:06 AM

Limiting BP is really a poor way to restrict power levels. If you want to do that, restrict pool sizes instead. Say, 10 max dice pool to start-- they can pull off some impressive things, but can't compete with the world-class just yet.

Posted by: MikeKozar Apr 12 2011, 12:07 AM

Or even just pre-build some characters. I mean, if they're going to be waking up in a coffin hotel, why not go the amnesiac route as well and let them decide who they are on the fly. No backstory or contacts, but a set of very interesting skills. It has the advantage of giving you a balanced party with a driving motivation, especially if you dangle the Truth (and a little payback) in front of them as a long term goal.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 12 2011, 12:08 AM

Bourne Identity meets Blade Runner! Hooray!

Posted by: CanRay Apr 12 2011, 12:15 AM

Nice, I approve. I did something similar for my first Nas story, although it was only a few hours he was missing.

But what a few hours!

Posted by: Tyro Apr 12 2011, 12:24 AM

In Guild Wars 2, when you make a Norn (think 8 foot tall Viking shapeshifters) one of the questions you're asked is something along the lines of "I was at a moot (big party) and I..."

One of the options is "blacked out", and you have to find out what happened later in the game ^_^

Posted by: Whipstitch Apr 12 2011, 12:46 AM

I'd be really careful how you do this. You may even just want to work with people on a case by case basis. For one thing, flat out restricting gear and skill ratings can be REALLY hard on human characters. Remember, orks & trolls are relatively balanced in shadowrun despite their point efficiency in large part due to the simple fact that as good as raw attributes may be it is often more effective to skimp out on a point or two here and there so you can afford some Magic, Programs or 'Ware instead. Without those as alternatives it's often best to just sign on for the full 220+ combined metatype/attribute total regardless of whatever it is you actually intend for your character to do. It's especially problematic if skill ratings are also capped since then humans can easily run out of ways to improve in their shtick well before they're close to running out of BPs. The end result is that you usually end up with a character that's just kinda crappy since you just don't really have the sheer number of points or attributes to qualify for well-rounded.

Posted by: Audious Apr 12 2011, 12:50 AM

It's an actual coffin, not a coffin hotel, haha. And I was going to give them temporary amnesia from some sort of knockout drug. It's raining really heavily, they can hear some voices over the sound of someone digging down to them and their casket is slowly filling with rainwater.

Also, as far as the PC nerfing, it's not for power reasons. I want a setting where magic and metatypes are rare and cyberware isn't super-widely available or affordable. I'm just not following all of the pre-written fluff. My players enjoy a gritty game, also. Think Kane & Lynch more than GitS.

Posted by: Whipstitch Apr 12 2011, 12:52 AM

I've found gritty is much more easily accomplished by tweaking the combat rules universally rather than trying to fiddle too much with chargen.

Posted by: Audious Apr 12 2011, 12:55 AM

Right, but I'm not running the canon Shadowrun world. Things happened differently for style reasons. Trolls and Elves and magic don't really fit the image I'm trying to get with this game.

Posted by: Doc Byte Apr 12 2011, 01:37 AM

Did you think of simply playing in the late twenties / early thirties?

Posted by: Audious Apr 12 2011, 01:48 AM

trollface.jpg

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 12 2011, 02:06 AM

Why not just switch to CyberPunk 2020 Then? Just Curious, as it removes the craziness of Metatypes and Magic. Seems like it would be a better fit, in my opinion.

Posted by: Audious Apr 12 2011, 02:20 AM

I own the books for Shadowrun.

Posted by: Glyph Apr 12 2011, 02:22 AM

The trouble with 300 points is that it really gimps you on Attributes, and leaves you so few points for skills that the characters will all take the same "essential" skills, giving them a dreary sameness.

You have eliminated metahumans and magic - the only way the characters can be effective is with cyberware. So limit that. Give them 400 BP. 200 BP on Attributes can give you half 4's and half 3's, meaning you will have to make some sacrifices even to have a 5 or two. Hardly superhuman. And they will have enough to spend on skills that they will have more variety (if you want lower power, then limit them to one 5/two 4's and other skills/skillgroups maxing out at 3 - limit the starting maximum, instead of giving them less skill points). Cyberware is what really makes characters effective, so limiting the availability, and how much they can spend on it, will give you the appropriately gritty characters.

Posted by: Audious Apr 12 2011, 02:27 AM

Thank you for a sane post that wasn't, "WHY ARE YOU MURDERING THE SETTINGOMGZURPRETENDINGWRONG!?"

You raise a good point, though. I think I will do it this way. Thanks

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 12 2011, 02:39 AM

Okay, that answers that question...

Posted by: ggodo Apr 12 2011, 03:11 AM

Great opening scene, I'm not sure you want to compare anything to Kane and Lynch. That franchise is one of the worst things ever produced. I'd say Karmagen and some free cyber.

Posted by: Audious Apr 12 2011, 03:14 AM

Kane and Lynch is the epitome of games that could've been so good. The second one, especially.

Thank you, though.

(They're being dug up by organleggers)

Posted by: TheOOB Apr 12 2011, 07:44 AM

300 BP, your incapable of creating an average human(3's in all attributes), but you can still start with a 5 in agility and a 6 in automatics with little trouble.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 12 2011, 07:48 AM

Exactly. Again, I vote Karmagen. SO much better. If you don't like all the math, us DK's Upgraded Character Generator from the Community Projects section. It's a comprehensive Excel/Open Office spreadsheet which supports just about everything the game has to offer; I've been using it since early beta (something like 2 years ago plus), and it's gotten fairly frequent updates since then.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 12 2011, 08:12 AM

Priority system! You can assign limits to Magic, Race, and Resources if you want to restrict certain choices.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 12 2011, 08:15 AM

Blech. Priority system still raises attributes and skills like BP does. Most of the same issues apply.

Posted by: TheOOB Apr 12 2011, 08:32 AM

The priority system is just like the BP system, but for some reason is assumes that not everyone is going to spend at or near their cap on attributes.

Posted by: TheOOB Apr 12 2011, 08:32 AM

The priority system is just like the BP system, but for some reason is assumes that not everyone is going to spend at or near their cap on attributes.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 12 2011, 10:08 AM

And replaces it with the crazyness that is known as THE POWER OF ROCK.

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 12 2011, 10:32 AM

I had the same thought
Or maybe GURPS Cyberpunk(You could add Magic, Psionics and/or Metatypes later If you want to) ?
Playing SR without Metatypes and Magic is ,ike ....playing Fantasy RPG without Clerics ,Divine Magic and Gods...
not very Fun-promising in my Eye, but hey its your Game

Hough!
Medicineman

Posted by: Audious Apr 12 2011, 12:34 PM

Roommate's doing Pathfinder that way and it's a ton of fun. Like I said, I have the books for Shadowrun and don't intend to learn a brand new system when I can just slightly modify this one and have the same effect.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 12 2011, 01:14 PM

The Power of Rock is awesome. I like CP2020 in some ways, and not in other ways. But the Power of Rock is definitely a bonus.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 12 2011, 08:29 PM

I'd use SR4 rules for about any near-future setting.
They work at least decently and it's the rules set i'm most familiar with, so why not stick to it in other settings as well?
If everyone in the group wanted a classic cyberpunk campaign and was familiar with SR more than with other RPGs, why would you bother to switch to another system?
It would be less work to write houserules for THE POWER OF ROCK (or anything about how to use the Artisan skill at all) then to learn some clunky early 90s RPG rules.

The things you'd want to remove in other settings are usually entire modules such as magic, technomancy or 'ware, removing them is merely as much work as saying "look, we're playing a one-shot based on Strange Days, so please make mundane, human characters without 'ware and without any matrix technology that doesn't use minidiscs as a storage medium."

Yes, it would be a bit harder to differentiate the characters as far as abilities go, but there's still enough mundane qualities and underused skills for that.

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 13 2011, 04:27 AM

I am Lucky in knowing a lot of different RPGs (and playing them)
So I perceive such Issues from the perspective that there are some other RPG that better suit a different Taste
And If one of my Groups tells me (f.E.)" we want to play Dark Dystopy without Magic or Metas" I grab Cyberpunk. If its with Monster & Horror it could be Dark Conspiracy or Cthulhu Punk. if Its only with Vampires its Vampire in Chrome,etc
Sometimes I forget that other Groups don't have that broad experience with RPG.
And Yes Its a valid Argument that its easier to stick to the RPG you know and simply edit out the Aspects You don't like (like Shadowrun without Magic or Metas) than starting a whole new RPG
But it is also valid that there are other RPGS that are better suited for certain Kinds of Gamestyles

with a broad Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Seerow Apr 13 2011, 05:17 AM

Honestly though, what do any of those systems bring to the table that shadowrun without Magic/Metas doesn't? I mean, you can run a perfectly legit group of mundane humans even in the shadowrun world. If the other systems do something straight up better, then sure, use it. But Shadowrun's system works, and a fair bit better than many other systems out there. For example I'd take a modified shadowrun over say D20 Modern or GURPS any day of the week. I've never played Cyberpunk 2020 but I've heard mixed things about it. If I were to look for a non-magic cyberpunk style game, I'd probably similarly turn to Shadowrun.

Now if Shadowrun were a more eberron-esque setting where magic and technology were frequently mixed, and taking out the magic makes technology no longer make sense, then there would be a problem. But as it is, Magic is so compartmentalized you can remove it from the game completely, and anyone who didn't expect it to be there wouldn't notice anything wrong. Which to me makes it a good option.


Now, if the guy were trying to mod shadowrun for a high fantasy setting, and trying to take out all of the tech and cyber/bioware, then there would be a indication that he should really just look for a different system.

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 13 2011, 05:55 AM

Its the Background and Fluff that gets Broken
Shure, from a pure Crunch perspective You can simply omit all the Rules concerning Magic or Metas
but If You plan to start a longer Campaign with a "working Background and believiable environment " its quite strenious if not Impossible


Yes It Is and Yes it does (I Nod friendly) Its one of my favorite RPGs,no doubt about that )


I played it half a Year ago ImO its inferior to SR4A Ruleswise and lacks much of the Flavor SR has


You would have to totally rewrite History.
There would be no NAN,no CAS/UCAS ,no Horrors, no Connection to Earthdawn, no Immortal Elves, no Dunkelzahn for President, (No Drakes at all) No Megacorps (Saeder Krupp without Loffy ? How ? Impossible !) or different Megas,etc,etc


I totally agree
but ImO its the same without Magic

He who dances with Tech & Magic
Medicineman

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 13 2011, 04:28 PM

Writing a good setting isn't particularly hard. In fact, it's much easier than coming up with working rules.
Simply adapting an existing setting is even easier.
Just think about all those threads here that we had about building characters from GitS- that setting would work perfectly fine under SR4 rules minus the magic.

I've aso mused about alternate versions of the standard SR setting (recently thinking about how the world would look like if timelines hadn't split in the 90s, but would only start to diverge after the awakening- i'll make sure to start a thread on the subject when December comes around).

One could even write a cyberfantasy setting for SR4 rules that has nothing to do with the SR fluff at all and i could see it working out perfectly fine - SR does have an elaborate setting with a long-running metaplot, but unlike other setting- and metaplot-heavy systems such as WoD or TDE, there is little connection between setting and rules.
There's few elements that are rooted so deeply in the fluff that they wouldn't make sense in another setting.

SR never made the effort to portray itself as a setting-agnostic system like D&D, but for a lot of games, it would work fine as such.

Posted by: Seerow Apr 13 2011, 04:55 PM

Like Rasumichin said, you're mixing up Shadowrun the setting with Shadowrun the system. Yes the corps and the political landscape will be different, you might even end up playing in a system without any megacorps, and not be shadowrunning at all. But the point is the Shadowrun system still works for that. Not everyone who plays Shadowrun needs to play in the Shadowrun world. While the system does assume this is the case, the system itself is flexible and generic enough that it doesn't need to be true.

Honestly, the only reason I said that a low tech high fantasy setting wouldn't work is because there is so little you can spend wealth on in a setting like that. In such a setting a mundane character wouldn't be able to survive. Then again, a bunch of adepts and magicians could make it all right even with a limitation like that so it's not totally impossible.. just other systems do that style of setting better.

Posted by: Audious Apr 13 2011, 11:39 PM

You know how you handle the history changing and not rewriting the entire thing? Answer questions as they come up.

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 14 2011, 04:47 AM

Neither do I think that Rasumichin said that nor that I'm mixing it.
I (both of Us) know the difference between Fluff & Crunch

Hough !
Medicineman

Posted by: Caadium Apr 14 2011, 10:10 AM

Dropping availability can dramatically change not only augmentations, but also basic gear.

I would say that instead of limiting how much they can spend on augmentations, I'd consider lowering the bp they are allowed to spend on nuyen. This keeps someone from going for limited cyber, but overloading on weapons, commlinks, vehicles, etc. It also forces the characters to spend more on things like contacts, skills, and qualities.

Posted by: KeyMasterOfGozer Apr 14 2011, 07:27 PM

I, for one, agree with Medicineman.

I love playing Shadowrun, and have played it since 2nd edition days. However, the setting is probably 90% of the reason I like it. In SR4, it seems every time we play, we find something else that doesn't make sense, and we need to come up with house rules to get around the technical problems with the RAW.

It seems to me that dropping Magic, Metatypes, Cyber and Equipment... you are just left with a list of skills, attribs and a bunch of poorly worded rules.

Personally, there would be several other systems I would rather use, but it's hard to trump the OP's assertion that he owns the SR4 books already, and not others. Still, if you've cut everything out, what do you really need the books for? Maybe to tell you everyone instantly dies in every car crash?

Posted by: StealthSigma Apr 14 2011, 07:57 PM

I encountered no obvious quirks when playing Shadowrun with magic and metatypes completely eviscerated from the system.

Aside from the obvious "I have the books for Shadowrun and not Cyberpunk" some of the less obvious reasons are the fluff. Now that may not make sense to a lot of people who will shout out "But magic is part of the fluff!" Yes. It is. However, it's amazing how much of the fluff you can ignore the magic aspect to it with limited reworking of the fluff. Shadowrun provides a plethora of background material for a setting that you have to do mild conditioning to.

It is, in a sense, similar to the Forgotten Realms setting for Dungeons and Dragons. I hate most of the mechanics that are introduced specifically for Forgotten Realms because it is very high magic power setting, but it's one of the richest settings in D&D as far as lore goes to the point where I will almost always defer to the deities of Faerun whenever I need to bother with deities.

--



Of course not, but it's not a huge loss to a more cyberpunk setting without magic.



There's no guarantee to that. Neither nation is really dependent upon magic to form. Economic or political differences could ignite a second civil war in the US that causes the split.



Meh.



Considering Loffy basically swindled some other lady out of significant portions of her shares for SK, SK without Loffy is more than possible.

--

Purists hate to consider how easy it is to make alterations to something they love and adore. The truth is that a lot of fluff for Shadowrun can be quickly errata'd to eradicate magic while retaining everything that doesn't have an existence due solely to magic.

Posted by: Audious Apr 14 2011, 09:51 PM

Hm... oh, I don't know, because when someone gets shot in the face in Shadowrun, they don't just lose 40 HP. There's already a ton of cyberware pre-written for me that works just fine for the setting I'm doing. Magic DOES exist in my setting, it's just not an option for the players.

Is this really that hard of a concept to get your heads around? I like the system. I want to use the system for a slightly different setting. The fact that everyone is getting all aspie about this blows my mind.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 14 2011, 09:52 PM

What's wrong with being an aspie?

Posted by: Audious Apr 14 2011, 09:55 PM

Yes, I used aspie to say that everyone is being obsessive over something that doesn't really matter. It's almost as if that is one of the symptoms of Aspergers.

Also, your attempt to make me feel bad about what I said failed.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 14 2011, 11:32 PM

It's more like a symptom of antisocial fuckheads who self-diagnose with Asperger's to have a handy excuse for being a dick, regardless of whether they show actual, non-clichéd symptoms of autism spectrum disorders or not.

BTW, i wouldn't say this thread is particularly obsessive by dumpshock standards, either.
We had a pretty civil discussion up until now. I'd be happy if it stays that way.[/whiteknight]

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 15 2011, 02:16 AM

And yet, you would have to do NO re-writing of the Fluff in Cyberpunk 2020. Less Work involved. Of course, if you do not have the books, then that is obviously a wasted suggestion. But the point does stand. I would rather use a system that needs no tweaking of mechanics or fluff to use, rather than a system I like, that requires a massive gutting of mechanics and fluff to make it work for the game I want to run.

Perspective matters at that point. If you do not mind the work involved, then modify away. Me, I am likely to just pick up the system that already has that done for me (or possibly already own it, as in CP2020's case).