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Posted by: Turing Apr 12 2011, 05:49 AM

My GM has hinted that he wouldn't mind if I brought a Free Spirit PC into his game, but I wanted to clarify a few things.

The Runner's Companion states that a free spirit's Force sets the natural minimums and maximums for all stats, including magic.

Does this mean that a Force 6 spirit has a rating of 6 across the board in all stats?

This seems to be exceedingly cheap from a chargen viewpoint, as the cost of raising force is the same as any other stat (ie 10 BP per level, with, presumably, a 15 BP premium for maxing the stat).

Am I reading this wrong?

Arlyansor

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 12 2011, 06:00 AM

All of a free spirit's attributes start at 2 (instead of 1). You have to buy them up like normal, with the maximum being the Force of the spirit.

Posted by: Turing Apr 12 2011, 08:13 AM

But this is what Runner's Companion states:

"Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation."

This passage implies, to me at any rate, that a Force 6 spirit has rating 6 in all attributes, by setting the MINIMUM for all attributes as being equal to Force.

Is there an official ruling on this anywhere?

Posted by: Glyph Apr 12 2011, 09:15 AM

I don't think so. The general consensus seems to be that it is just incredibly poor wording, though. Because going purely by that interpretation of RAW would make free spirit PCs completely unbalanced.

Posted by: Turing Apr 12 2011, 09:31 AM

I don't doubt that - I was wanting to know the consensus simply before I presented the concept to my GM.

Thanks,

Arlyansor

Posted by: Irion Apr 12 2011, 11:35 AM

Your quote is correct.

So there are two possible interpretations:
First: In order to raise the Force you have to raise every single Attribute.
Second: The minimum is determind by the minimum Force (2) and the maximum is determined by the current force.

Since the first one would cripple every free spirit character (and does not really fit to the rest of the text), people tend to go with the second one.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 12 2011, 01:50 PM

You'll want to search for the twelve previous (long, argumentative) threads about this topic.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 12 2011, 02:06 PM

You're going to need to use your common sense and a bit of GM fiat when using the PC AI and PC Free Spirit charagen rules. They're very poorly worded.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Apr 12 2011, 02:07 PM

Is that The Consensus?






-k

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 14 2011, 01:07 AM

I play two Free Spirit PCs, one on Dumpshock and one in a home game. Both are built with the Attributes beginning at 2 and the physical and mental Attributes, as well as Edge, having to be raised individually up to the maximum set by Force. In the home game we use karmagen, and therefore the 'hard max' cost is not relevant, but when we considered BP gen it was deemed to have been paid at chargen when all the stats are at the limit set by the Force of 2. In the Dumpshock game, BP are used and the 'hard max' extra BP is paid if the Attribute is brought up to the final Force value at chargen.

Each PC is a useful addition to his or her team, with unique skills and weaknesses without being overpowered in comparison to other PCs.

Posted by: ggodo Apr 14 2011, 01:16 AM

That's GENERAL Consensus to you. Sir will do as well.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 14 2011, 03:08 AM

My copy of Runner's Companion also says this:



In other words, all attributes start at the minimum potential Force of a free spirit, and use the final Force rating as attribute maximums.

Note that it in your quoted text it doesn't say how Force determines attribute minimum and maximums, just that it determines them. It does say that Maximum Natural Attribute = Force, but it doesn't say that Minimum Attribute = Force. It also doesn't say that increasing Force increases any Attributes (and implies otherwise).

The line that you're focusing on is a throwaway line, since it doesn't say anything explicitly, and the other lines do.

Posted by: Turing Apr 14 2011, 03:27 AM

Actually, I've just noticed the following on page 91 of Runner's Companion:

"Free spirit characters are also built slightly differently than metahuman characters. The “metatype” cost of a free spirit character is 250 BP."

As this only gives Free Spirits only 150 BP to spend on everything else, I (personally) would rule that a Free Spirit's stats are equal to Force (as per my previous quote). As a GM, I'd have to think hard about allowing a Force 6 Free Spirit into the game (especially a starting or low powered game) though.

That said, however, with the (relatively) massive 'racial' cost of being a Free Spirit, and having to spend a further 55 BP to raise Force to 6, leaving a Force 6 Free Spirit with the grand total of only 95 BP for skills, it's all about equal...

Arlyansor.

Posted by: Seth Apr 14 2011, 04:10 AM

Like Pbangarth I play a free spirit character. I also GM one of his. There have been many long argumentative threads about how to interpret the wording, and I come down strongly on the "you start at 2 and buy each attribute up separately" side.

Without a doubt free spirits are some of the most effective characters out there. Their die pools are smaller, but their advantages are very high, and their ability to buff their colleagues is out of this world.

The other issue is that you will have more "arguments" with the GM over your character as a free spirit than any other. This is because the character has strengths and weaknesses that are different to normal characters. If as well as being different you are also significantly more powerful than the others (which you will be if you have force 6 implies all attributes at 6) then you and the GM are not going to have a fun time.

Posted by: Seerow Apr 14 2011, 04:36 AM

I agree with this. I mean really, the current general consensus on the forums make a free spirit pretty much unplayable. To get your stats to reasonable level, you basically abandon everything else.

I can see the concern with post char-gen free spirits growing powerful too quickly by increasing their force, quickly becoming super at everything, but at character gen, a standard PC Free Spirit doesn't seem like it'd be playable without having the force set attributes. It'd be a lot easier to swallow if the racial buy in were way cheaper (like 30-50, maybe as high as 75. But not 250).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 14 2011, 04:49 AM

Psh, 'only' 95BP of skills for the immortal 6-everything planar-teleporting, flying, astral-sprinting spirit with bonus IPs, Magician, critter powers based on the fantastically useful Edge attribute… including Immunity to Normal Weapons (at Force 6, facrissake)? Where do I sign up?

The problem has always been that Free Spirits are either insanely good, or insanely bad, depending on the interpretation you use. Both suck, so you can't use either.

Posted by: Turing Apr 14 2011, 04:52 AM

What I don't get with your (and Pbangarth's) post is that you state you prefer the 'Force sets the max but stats start at 2' thing - but if a free spirit character has only 95-150 BP (after paying the horrific 'racial' cost) to buy stats AND skills AND misc, that's not much of a character.

That's really quite harsh for any Free Spirit PC. It means that at start, except for a couple funky abilities, they're essentially gimped - no stats above a 2 or 3, not many skills, and no abilities other than materialisation/possession.

Yes, yes, they are Immune to Normal Weapons, but that hinges on force (Forcex2 Hardened Armor essentially) but a large enough attack will still penetrate and disrupt the spirit quite nicely thank you.

A question then, for those that run or GM Free Spirit PC's - what was the 'racial' BP cost that you used for those characters?

Posted by: Dahrken Apr 14 2011, 05:12 AM

Even if disrupted he will come back in play fully healed roughly a month later, were a mage (to take another archetype usually not physically powerful) faced with the same attack is likely to end up definitively dead so it's not that bad I think...

Posted by: Irion Apr 14 2011, 08:26 AM

@Turing

Sometimes I realy would like it, if people would do the math before posting.
Spirits get an ass full of Bonis. (Edge gives them power points, they get hardend armor equal to force, they can't die etc.)
But lets focus und the attributes.

Every Spirit starts with 2 in every Attribute.
This gives him 10*10=100 BP. Not bad to start with.
(If I only increase the normal attribute with force it ends up with)
Force 3 100+80=180 Free Points.
Force 4 100+80+80= 260 free Points.
Force 5 100+80+80+80= 340 free Points.

Free Spirits come out quite good in Karma Gen. (And there are ways around the friendship packt. Just get more friends than you need and kick the suckers when they are going to die.)

The real pain in the ass is, that increase Attribute (and all the other health spells for boni) are all physical spells. (Why I do not know)
So a spirit has close to no way to boost him or herself.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 14 2011, 01:03 PM

That just means you can't cast them while astral, Irion.

Posted by: darthmord Apr 14 2011, 02:11 PM

Yep, and once they are cast, you can sustain them whether you are astral or physical.

I should add that it was also mentioned by the person who made the rules for Free Spirit PCs that the original cost was supposed to be 85 BP. I believe the floor and ceilings were intended to be gated by Force but not specifically linked to each other like they are with the current wording in RC.

Posted by: Irion Apr 14 2011, 02:22 PM

Sounds strange, but I shall believe you.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 14 2011, 03:56 PM

Their abilities are based upon Edge, AND they get some abilities for Free.
The one Free Spirit I created is actually pretty damn good. Force 6 and Edge 5 (as Yerameyahu indicated) is NO JOKE. so I only have 3 skills or so, so What. So the majority of his stats are a 2, again, so what. His abilities are definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Friendship Pact allows you to return tot hte Physical World (once disrupted) when you are healed. So, within a couple of days at the outside. Userful power that. Pick up Life Pact and you have a ready supply of Karma waiting whenever your pacted members need healing. Also quite useful.

As for Hardened Armor. They still get their armor to resist the damage if it is higher than the Hardened aspect. And if the Spirit has Realistic Form (an additional Force Dice to Mimic something Real), he does not even look like a spirit most of the time.

Also, Used 250 BP as racial Cost.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 14 2011, 04:31 PM

Indeed. Look at it this way: the spirits you summon don't really have skills, either (a couple). You summon them because they know Concealment, or have ITNW, or Accident (0.5 PP!), or Guard, or Confusion, or Movement (!), or Regeneration, just to name a few incredible powers unavailable to any other character. That, plus Stunbolt… who needs skills? Did I mention you can sustain all your critter powers for free?

I still don't think this means either interpretation is ideal, or even playable under normal circumstances. I'd prefer a method that lets you have normal-ish Attribs, while also *normal* levels of spellcasting and critter powers. It's a tall order, because every Free Spirit is basically the mystic adept++ from hell (a literal possibility, I guess), so decent stats and normal gear (armor, guns) is just hard to balance in there; thank god they can't get cyber. *shrug* They're Free Spirits, one of the rarest, weirdest options in a pretty big list of rare, weird options.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 15 2011, 01:58 AM

Which is why purchasing Stats Independantly works for me. Made the same Character with Karmagen, and man, what a difference that made. Crazy.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 15 2011, 02:13 AM

I didn't even mention any of the Greater Powers, because I think they're all too insane for use. They include things like Wealth, Karma Drain, body *stealing*, etc.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 15 2011, 02:30 AM

No Doubt. I did not think they even had Costs associated with them. I Will have to check my book again to make sure that they do not.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 15 2011, 04:04 AM

Karmagen is a good way to go, with the modification of spending the 'racial' build cost in karma points. This costs a Free Spirit 250 karma out of the 750 regular amount. It leads to a competent and cool character that doesn't overshadow the other PCs.

Posted by: Raven the Trickster Apr 15 2011, 12:56 PM

Agreed, Bryneir (pbangarth's free spirit) has some very useful abilities and makes an exceptional scout, but in combat she's no better than Cale (my street sam/infiltrator) except against opponents with *very* heavy armor. Also the way you play her, which I think makes sense given her qualities and origin makes her use in social situations somewhat variable, which gives the other characters opportunities there as well.

Posted by: kzt Apr 15 2011, 11:01 PM

If you interpret the other way it still makes free spirit PCs completely unbalanced.

The stuff in runners companion is totally broken. You either end up with SuperSpirit or SuperWimp depending on which side of the contradictory rules you choose to use.

It's unclear exactly what the writer was trying to say, as it was butchered by the editor, and it's conceivable that somewhere there is a version that doesn't contradict itself and actually could produce playable and vaguely balanced characters. But I've never seen it.

If you want to do a free spirit you should rewrite the rules from scratch. The idea that you need pacts to get Karma as a PC is STUPID, you should not be able to use them AT ALL if the GM is even vaguely interested in balance.

Posted by: Seth Apr 16 2011, 01:07 AM

You keep saying super wimp. This is probably because you haven;t played it. A free spirit with 400bp is as viable a character as super wimp as any other character. It isn't a pornomancer, but it works

Posted by: Glyph Apr 16 2011, 02:22 AM

Free spirits don't need to be pornomancers. Everyone already wants to dikote them and have sex with them.

Posted by: Fortinbras Apr 16 2011, 02:24 AM

I went through the entire entry on Free Spirit PCs line by line in another post explaining why Force doesn't equal every stat. While Force is the stat used to determine both your minimum and your maximum, it doesn't equal both your minimum and maximum. You just need it to calculate what those minimum and maximums are; the math for which is given in the next couple of paragraphs.
If Force equals every stat, then there wouldn't be any other math necessary. That would be that. There are, however, two more formulas later in the description.

The only way to interpret "Force = Everything" is to both assume determine means equal and to suddenly lose the ability to read right after that sentence.

I think the better question is why you would want to play a Free Spirit to begin with. If it's to create an interesting or innovative take on play, then playing it as wirtten is more than what you'll need for your runs. If the answer is "because I want 6's in everything" you might want to reconsider the character.

Posted by: kzt Apr 16 2011, 02:37 AM

Well, it will likely be slightly less effective than the average 150 BP character in a group of 400 BP characters. The limits on force utterly screw you if you choose that interpretation. You have a magician who can have a magic of 4 if he takes 30 points of disads and only has characteristics. No spells, no magic skills. Yeah, that's sure to impress your teammates.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 16 2011, 03:42 AM

Again, you don't need skills. Just Edge. You have plenty of crazy, unmatchable powers.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 16 2011, 03:54 AM

Step 0: Buy Free Spirit (250 points)
Step 1: Buy Force 5. (30 points)
Step 2: Buy enough Edge to have the power points to get Elemental Attack. (10 points)
Step 3: Buy rating 3 in Intuition, Logic, Willpower, and Agility. (40 points)
Step 4: Buy Exotic Ranged Weapon (Elemental Attack) 5. (20 points)
Step 5: Buy Assensing 3, Spellcasting 3, Counterspelling 3. (36 points)
Step 6: Find something to do with 14 BP.

Now you've got a moderate spellcaster with a 5 damage / -half Impact armor / 0 Drain ranged attack on 8 dice (that would normally have a drain of 5). You've also got 2 IPs, Hardened Armor 10, and the ability to just poof off into astral space whenever. And fly.

Note: being able to bodily move into astral space and back is almost like being able to teleport.

So you're not superman, but you're not exactly crippled.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 16 2011, 04:00 AM

Don't forget that you can jump *beyond* astral and back, too. It's crazy. And you're immortal. So you can fly, pseudo-teleport on the physical, *and* pseudo-teleport on the astral. It's like Inception.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 16 2011, 04:09 AM

Ah hey...

all this about players as spirits and powers got me thinking a bit:

Say, do any of you have a good idea of how and if a free spirit could get some of the OTHER greater powers available to invoked ones? For example "Storm" or "Quake"? Would it be fair to be able to get one? They are excluded normaly, but is it logical?
(Small question about that. HOW LONG does a storm last, no indication in the power itself. Only duration: Special... all other "special duration powers are pretty much always on). I have to assume it is "at will" which is pretty insane.)

And now for the main course:
WHY on earth do player spirits (and AI) get less than the NPC-versions of them? ALL spirit types get added attribute points, (AI's too). But player characters somehow are capped at their force and have no penalties or boni like they SHOULD have. Most Spirits have between +3 to +8 bonus total. Giving them what they DESERVE woul alleviate the "damn they are so weak" in lower force levels.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 16 2011, 04:11 AM

The Spirit Powers available to Free Spirits are rarely considered in the claims that Free Spirit PCs are 'wimps'. Just part of the powers available to my 750 karma Free Spirit PC (Force 6, Edge 6) are Aura Masking, Realistic Form and Mutable Form.

Think for a few minutes what flexibility just those three powers in concert give her, particularly when her Disguise Skill (which pool is boosted by her Edge because of Mutable Form) is added into the consideration.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 16 2011, 04:17 AM

Indeed... some of the Same powers that I have for my Free Spirit as well.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 16 2011, 04:38 AM

Sounds like a good way to make the broken 'super' interpretation of Free Spirits vastly worse, Summerstorm. Free Spirits aren't Great Form… I'm not even sure it's possible for them to be (NPC or PC). Possibly an invoker could do it if they first bound the free spirit with its formula?

Posted by: kzt Apr 16 2011, 06:15 AM

Step 2 is buy Body 5, Agility 5, Reaction 5, Strength 5, Charisma 5, Intuition 5, Logic 5 and Willpower 5 so your have the required minimums in all your stats. That requires 240 points of the 120 points you have left.

"Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation."

I have no idea what the writer/editor was trying to say, but the rule either means that increasing force means you automatically increase all your stats (which kind of makes sense for 250 points) or it means that any time you increase force you have to pay to increase all your stats.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 16 2011, 09:00 AM

That's simply absurd.



No, the line you're focusing on does not say in any way how Force determines the natural minimum, just that it does. It explicitly states later that Force = natural maximum, taking care of that one, but it never goes back to address the minimum. It goes on to state that all attributes start at 2 at the beginning of character generation, which implies that all attributes have a minimum of 2 (which implies that the minimum Force for the spirit is also the natural minimum for all other attributes). It never suggests that all attributes are always equal to Force, as it explicitly states with Magic. If it were going to be that simple it would say something like, "Free Spirits have a special Force attribute that starts at a rating of 2. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. All of a spirit's Physical, Mental, Magic, Edge, and Essence attributes are equal to its current Force."

I can't stop anyone from trying to win the "who can give this paragraph the most obtuse spin imaginable" award, but I don't see any sense in abandoning reason just to prove a point. Everyone already knows it's badly written. The words aren't magically going to rearrange themselves, so you just have to make do with what you have.

The section should read, for clarity:

Free Spirits have a special Force attribute that starts with a rating of 2, which also acts as the spirit's Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 at the start of character generation. The spirit's Force rating serves as the natural maximum for its Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes.

All I did was remove one sentence that contained no explicit information, and then I cleaned up the style.

Posted by: Irion Apr 16 2011, 12:58 PM

The rules are not written so badly.
If you read the rules with the purpose to play with them, there is no problem.
Yes, you are able to start an argument by introducing the rules from streetmagic into the mix (rules which should not exist in the first place).

If you just read the rules out of RC it is obvious, that the interpretation of Epicedion is the correct one.
Yes, you could argue otherwise, but this to be considered everywhere.
You could also argue, that laserweapons do not allow for a reaction test, because they hit you with the speed of light, so you do not have a possibility to dodge.

Simple: Because you do not need to balance NPCs in any way. It is absurd.
If you want an NPC Überspirit, you just give him the powers/stats you want. It is not important if he would need 700 or 7000 Karma to pay for those. You won't use Karma anyway. So what the hell?
(This is part of the reason I do not get the rules for NPC free spirits)
A PC free spirit on the other hand has to be comparable to his or her teammates. So if you start to have a Überspirit right out of Karma Gen, then it is not fair compared to other players.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 16 2011, 01:04 PM

Don't even, Irion. The rules are *incredibly* badly-written.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 16 2011, 01:40 PM

Why an "Überspirit"? Nah i just want them to have the modifiers they should have.

For example an air-spirit no matter what tradition or force is ALWAYS a lot faster than an earth spirit. But much less resilient and strong. why are ALL (player) free spirits the same. And the same WEAK (just with pure attributes of course). The origin, purpose, "race" and such of an free spirit should be an issue. And also EVERYTHING in existance has mostly boni. Trolls, Elves, Orcs, Drakes, Infected, PIXIES (EUGH...), and everything. The only one who have no natural boost-up are the humans... which make up in readily available access to technology.

I am not talking like the +8 like some the primordial spirits in the Running Wild. But more something like "-1,+2, +2, -1" or something Maybe providing a list of "sets" the player can choose for his spirits (so like choosing to have 2 small penalties for two good boni or just one penality-one bonus or huge penalty for two good boni etc. ? Re-arranging a few of his attributes penalties and boni. But overall: Yeah, a few points overall should be ADDED.

Can i also add that the "friendship" pact is HORRIBLY bad. I would rather leech my karma from somewhere... but for powergaming reasons player-Free spirits can't get a karma-syphoning power. But i still think they should easily be able to "receive" karma. The good old "pay me in LIFE" is a universal truth when working with spirits.

Hm, reading all the spirit stuff makes me want to make a character... Also thinking: Plasteel is just fiber-glassed-steel something. I can build a MUCH tougher homunculous. I am thinking more in tungsten and titanium alloys, some mallable sheeting. Wearing a strength-enhanced milspec armour... bwahaaha (sorry.... i am calming down now)

Posted by: Irion Apr 16 2011, 01:54 PM

So everything would be more complicated.
For example: What would be the aug. max.? Force *1.5 oder (Force+ Attribute mod)* 1.5.
Would the attribute Mod count as natrual or as augmented?

@Yerameyahu
I disagree considering the attributes. Some powers are strange. Friendship pact, realistic form and Aura masking come in mind.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 16 2011, 02:46 PM

Things get only complicated when you MAKE them complicated. They would be racial mods. And of course the "Force=maximum natural Attribute" rule would have to be rewritten as to accomidate for this. Mental attributes of course will be untouched.

I am giving a concrete example.

Bob makes a free spirit character. He decides that his character is a weakened free spirit, which broke free after his master died in a fight. He himself is was a guardian spirit.
(A guardian Spirit normaly has a whopping B+1, A+2, R+3, S+2)
So he consultates the provided list (not provided *g*) and chooses the "roundabout all positives Set" with +1,+1,+2,+1 over other sets like the "Behemoth +4,-2,-2,+4" or "The lightweigth -2,+3,+4,-2" These mods are "racial" attribute points for min and max, and are used under the same rules.

(Note : These "Sets" or the rules to set up yopur own boni have to be playtested and checked before. Reaction and agility are normaly more "worth" than strength, excessive bonis to one value are more worth than lower ones too more etc.)

I am just proposing something like this because:

1. While powers and abilities are fun... most people would like to roll some dice sometimes too.
2. Nearly ALL, but the frailed, weakest spirits do have higher attributes than force. You don't say to the players: AND you are the frailes, weakest kind of spirit. You are playing a kickass entity with the seed of greatness. You don't need to be a Force 12 free Spirit to be as strong as a force 6 earth elemental... if you already ARE and were concentrated on MIGHT. Feels bad.
3. On lower forces and with stating attributes they NEED the boost only magical improvements are available, and they can't bind foci to sustain that. All other races can get their fix somewhere.

I am not saying that ALL character types have to be equal (well, i would even say i am pretty much against that in every form), wherever and whatever they do. But a bit nudge here and there is just vital to have people REALLY enjoy their characters.

EDIT:
Ah and i wopuld like the same for AI's too (There it is the mental attributes of course). It is even more blatant with them: NO chance of improvement, extremely low ceiling (i would let them raise ANYTHING over 6 in my game though.) and blatant informations: NPC Metasapients have clearly a +1 Cha and +1 Wil as per "Unwired". Other Types have different, and more extra-points.

Posted by: Irion Apr 16 2011, 03:39 PM

@Summerstorm

Well, the acutal ruling is much easier. And here we are stuck with an other question. If you would take the Behemoth set, your agility and reaction would drop to zero. So you would need to invest BP to get them to 1 or not? Or would it only cap, the maximum and your minimum would stay 2?

So every Metahuman should have access to spirit powers equal to the edge attribute?

But a spell on yourself and you will get it too.

So what? They are still a valid and good choice. Even superior.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 16 2011, 03:54 PM

As we've said, Free Spirits aren't anything like normal characters. They've got powers literally no one can get, and all kinds of innate advantages (including, I forgot to list earlier, no-penalty astral sight at all times). Yes, they also have a couple unique disadvantages (no simsense/AR/etc.), and they don't have stats and skills like a normal character. That's fine, cuz they're *not* normal characters. Almost any effort you make to make them normal will only further imbalance them; tradeoffs to prevent that would only make them less spiritlike.

Posted by: UmaroVI Apr 16 2011, 04:15 PM

The way to be viable is to recognize that as a PC Free Spirit, you're going to be a cripple with 1 or 2 cheap tricks, and build around that. Don't try to fill the same role as a summoned spirit and don't try to have direct combat be your focus; even a crappy mage will be able to summon a spirit that can fight better than you, no matter what. Instead, decide what cheap trick you want to focus on, and put everything you can into being good at it.

An example is Voltron's Left Leg: Force 6 (55 bp), Edge 5 (30 BP), 65 bp on whatever, be a Possession free spirit, Aura Masking (3PP), Realistic Form (.5PP), extra Spirit Pact (1PP), do something amusing with the last .5PP, then the spirit pacts Friendship (pretty much required) and Drain. Have your bestest buddy be playing a foci-happy Possession tradition mage who picks up Channeling ASAP, make the Drain Resistance pact with him, then hang out inside him 24/7. This turns the two of you into a Voltron-esque supermage, but with Realistic Form and Aura Masking you just look like a mundane. You can also hide active foci and spells with Aura Masking which makes it even crazier. With your next PP, get the spirit pact Magic so the two of you can go super saiyan once a day, and then I think the next most hilarious thing is to pick up Power Pact and some power that combines in an amusing fashion with a different PCs abilities, like giving an unarmed combat adept Elemental Aura or giving a pornomancer Fear or Influence.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 16 2011, 04:24 PM

Possession is a powerful option, but you do basically lose the crazy teleporting effects.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 16 2011, 04:35 PM

You're not going to be a cripple. You're simply not going to be amazing at skills the way you might be if you made a metahuman. You can be above-average to good at a few things if you're careful, but most of the free spirit's power lies in its innate abilities:

Astral perception
Astral travel
Metaplanar travel
Flight
+1 IP
Hardened Armor
Free spirit powers for Edge
Magic

These things have to have a BP cost. I'd cost the astral travel and perception at 50 BP and throw on another 10 for the metaplanar travel, due to how unrestricted these things make your movement -- need to be in Paris? Poof. Want to bypass physical security? Poof. Flight is probably worth about 20 BP. A permanent +1 IP for a mage is probably another 10 BP. Natural hardened armor is probably worth 20 BP. The free spirit powers and magic are probably worth about 15 collectively, sort of like a combination aspected magician and mystic adept, with none of the drawbacks of having to lock up Magic points for powers.

Then all ten of your attributes (physical, mental, edge, force/magic) start at +1. That's worth 100 BP. So I'm up to 225 already.

Am I missing anything?

Posted by: CanRay Apr 16 2011, 04:40 PM

Best part of being a Free Spirit?

Never having to go through Airport Security. I might suggest that to a player that had his character suffer the indignity of having a full-body cavity search by an Ork.

Posted by: kzt Apr 16 2011, 06:04 PM

And the free bonus of bouncing off every ward. I remember a player trying to use a character who had the dual-natured 'ability'. It's not really something you want. Materialization is the only really cool power they get by default.

The idea that they can't use AR only makes sense if they are ONLY seeing via astral sight. Which actually would be pretty cool, but would require someone who really had a good grasp on what astral sight was supposed to do writing a couple pages talking about it in detail, as to what you see, what you can't see, how should it be conveyed etc.

If a spirit can read a book they can use AR. As far as I can tell they can read a book.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 16 2011, 06:46 PM

Don't try to use logic on SR, you'll hurt yourself. It says they can't use AR, so they can't use AR. If anything, they *shouldn't* be able to read books; problem solved. And it's a hell of a trade, because astral sight is super-vision, better than thermal, low-light, ultrasound, etc. And never forget, it's not really 'sight', so it's even better.

Who cares about wards? You're a spirit, you *should* have to deal with astral barriers. Lord knows you get to ignore all the physical ones.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 16 2011, 07:38 PM

Everyone else gets the free bonus of bouncing off concrete walls and not being immortal. Wah.

Posted by: Irion Apr 17 2011, 07:25 AM

As a matter of fact, they do have normal sight. (Since they are able to get improvements for "normal" sight, like low light vision)
If I were to guess I think someone confused AR with the brain trode-net thing.
So they are able to read books. This is (RAW) out of question.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 17 2011, 01:57 PM

I dunno if it logically follows that the ability to buy Low-Light means they already have normal sight. It *is* stupid, because Astral sight already beats low-light in all cases.

Posted by: Makki Apr 17 2011, 02:04 PM

only for seeing living things

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 17 2011, 02:17 PM

And anything solid, but I just meant in numeric terms. It *is* better at seeing through windows, I'll grant you that.

Posted by: Irion Apr 17 2011, 02:29 PM

@Yerameyahu

Thats just plain wrong. You can't even tell if somebody is naked with astral vision.
Nor are you able to read signs.
You can't distinguish between most inanimate objects etc.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2011, 02:35 PM

On the bright side, you can see how wicked awesome lusty that rave down the street is!

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 17 2011, 03:31 PM

Eh, like i said, all this wet my appetite for making a free spirit character. Fumbled around a bit, said to myself: Eh, to HELL with optimization and built this:
(Format likely messed up.)

Is it "good"? HELL no. Would it be wicked fun. Yupp. I think it is possible to make a viable character EVEN under the normal rules. But you are likely have a one-trick pony, or a "nothing special". But OH the potential. Also it is always fun roleplaying something utterly alien.

Ah well, if the second SR-group with my players starts... and it seems like a more punkier version... i might play this weird thingy.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2011, 03:35 PM

\m/ O \m/

Posted by: Irion Apr 17 2011, 05:37 PM

Well, the main problem with a free spirit in the BP system is, that there is stuff, which is much cheep in char gen, than with karma. I guess this is the reason most people think free spirits are underpowered, since they are not able to get those things.
Attribute to 5:
Chargen 40 BP (equals 80 Karma at best)
Karma 70 Karma

Skill to 6:
BP: 4*6= 24
Karma: = 44

So if you do not go the most effient way with your Karma (so to speak only soccery group 4, Force 6 and Edge/Willpower 5) the BP you are left with tend to brurn down to about 240 Karma equivalent. So 150 BP burns downt to 240 Karma.
This is as you would be building a human (from ground up) with around 640 Karma (including the Attribute*5 part)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 17 2011, 05:43 PM

But this applies to any character, not just Free Spirits. You have to make tradeoffs when you design a character. BP reinforces that concept.

Posted by: Makki Apr 17 2011, 06:01 PM

that's why I wonder, why people still use BP system after 3 (?) years of RC. They should have started with karmagen in the core book from the beginning. The math is really not harder or taking longer.

Posted by: fazzamar Apr 17 2011, 07:18 PM

Very Pink Mohawk and very cool.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 17 2011, 07:19 PM

They really should've stuck with the Priority system for the main book, and let Karma character generation be the advanced system.

With Priority, for a free spirit, you could say that the Free Spirit type would cost priority A or B (for +2 or +0 special attribute points, respectively), and be forced to take the Magician quality at A or B to determine your Force and spells known (A = Force 5, B = Force 3). Then you'd be left with C, D, and E for Attributes, Skills, and Resources. Keep the racial minimum of 2 for all attributes.

They say in RC that free spirits are "not compatible" with priority generation, and it might require a few tweaks to stay balanced (I'd probably make Magic A = Force 4 and Magic B = Force 2, and maybe remove the ability to buy Skill Groups in character generation), but I think you could end up with a slightly more flexible character without going too far out of balance with everything else.

Posted by: Fortinbras Apr 17 2011, 07:39 PM

I prefer the BP system for new players. Karmagen is much preferred by folks who want to play Free Spirits, Vampires and Dragons without having to pay for it. The sort of people who bemoan the fact that their Free Spirit doesn't have a better dice pool than mages.

Posted by: Makki Apr 17 2011, 07:57 PM

well, with the correct errata at hand, you have to pay for them. Karmagen is also preferred by most other players once they tried. and GMs. No min-max chars. what a wonderful day.

Posted by: fazzamar Apr 17 2011, 08:08 PM

What errata would that be?

Posted by: Makki Apr 17 2011, 08:20 PM

the one published in the german books and CGL is withholding from their US customers. it can easily be found in tens of threads on this forum.

Posted by: fazzamar Apr 17 2011, 08:30 PM

Grazie

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 17 2011, 08:57 PM

Irion, I can't imagine why you'd ever want to do any of those things.

Posted by: Fortinbras Apr 17 2011, 08:58 PM

None of my players are so into Shadowrun that they scour Dumpshock for German errata. Some of the time they're not a 100% on how many dice they roll to shoot things. For them, the BP system is faster and simpler and allows them to specialize without min-maxing. I'm big on new player inclusion.
You asked why people still use it, and that is why. I'm sure your players own all the books and know the rules really well, but my players just want to show up and shoot things. For their sake I like to keep things simple, and BP does that easier than karmagen.

I've nothing against karmagen per se, but it has been my experience that it's biggest proponents are power gamers.

Posted by: Glyph Apr 17 2011, 08:59 PM

Karmagen suffered because shortly after it came out, SR4A came out and put it in rules limbo for a long time. Even now, although (I hear) the new versions of the book in the U.S. come with the errata now, it has still not been released on the official site. Plus, the original version sparked a lot of controversy with the "free" metatype cost (even though most of the metatypes have a net point gain under the build point system, too), and with how powerful characters were (according to Ancient History, it was supposed to be 600, with 750 being the intended amount for the revised Attribute costs in SR4A).

It is a good system, but it doesn't really discourage min-maxing, per se. It would be a poor system indeed if you couldn't optimize characters with it, considering that shadowrunners are supposed to be established professional criminal specialists. But what it does do, and do well, with it's incrementally increasing costs, is make low dice pools cheaper. Traditionally min-maxed characters generally can get their high dice pools, and have some points left over for some "extra" skills. Generalist characters, on the other hand, find that spreading out gives them lots and lots of points. A specialist will be slightly over, compared to 400 BP. A generalist will be way over, compared to 400 BP. But the two types of characters are still more balanced in comparison to each other, as opposed to build points, where generalists get screwed by the flat point costs in addition to being screwed by their decision to go with lower dice pools.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 02:08 AM

Because I prefer the BP System?
I disagree about the Karmagen System, as well. I do not really like it all that much.

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 05:53 AM

@Fortinbras

As far as I know Dragons and Vampires need a Quality and you have to pay Karma for Qualities. So it stays true for Free Spirits and Shifters, and sapient critters and AIs.
Well, it is still imbalanced. They should have taken the time to writen down the Karma costs for alle the Races. This would have been just a little table and it would have been moren than a little improvement for the Karma system. So you could say the Karma system is half backed. Which is a little bit sad, because it is in most other aspects much better than the BP system.



@Epicedion

I have to disagree. System wise the Karma System is the best System in the book.
The only drawback is, that they did not gave the racial costs in Karma. (And some advantages would also need to be changed)
So If everything would have been written for the Karma Gen, it would have been a better choice. There would be no threads about getting your Force 4 Powerfocus at Chargen etc.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 18 2011, 07:31 AM

Karma generation is just too many points to deal with sanely, takes forever, and requires a ledger sheet to make sure you're not over/under-spending.

Priority is much quicker and easier, and generates reasonable characters. It's simple. Simple is good. Especially when it comes to character generation, because playing is more interesting and fun than building characters for 5 hours, especially if you're trying to get new players into the game, and even more especially if they're not all that familiar with tabletop RPGs. The BP system is a pretty large hurdle to jump if you're new to the game, and Karma generation is even larger.

Karma process:
Increase Strength 1->2, 2 x 5 = 10 karma
Increase Strength 2->3, 3 x 5 = 15 karma
Increase Strength 3->4, 4 x 5 = 20 karma
Increase Strength 4->5, 5 x 5 = 25 karma
Total = 10 + 15 + 20 + 25 = 70 karma

BP process:
Increase Strength 1->5 = (5 - 1) x 10 = 40 BP

Priority Process:
Increase Strength 1->5, 5 - 1 = 4 points

Posted by: Fortinbras Apr 18 2011, 07:35 AM

Drakes pay in Qualities, but the only Dragon PCs are from the April Fools Day rules, which some people seem to think aren't unbalanced and use them, seemingly unfamiliar with why it's funny.
Personally, I'm more of a "if it ain't broke" kind of guy, and far too many people use the term "broken" to mean "rule I don't like" rather than "unplayable."
In any event, I've yet to have a problem with any 400BP character, it's in the base book, which are easier to reference and we have more of them so they are easier to pass around the room, and the last thing my players need are more rules in a already rules heavy system.

I've yet to find anything wrong with the karmagen system, but from what I've seen on Dumpshock, those screaming the longest and the loudest about the benefits of karmagen are also the ones making thrice Initiated toxic shamans with Ally Spirits, so I'm a little gun shy.

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 10:26 AM

@Epicedion

The Karma is already in the game. So with BP you have to jump two hurdels.

I mean it gets obvious if you are looking at Technomancers. If you are building with BP you have to go with Resonanz 6 and 10 Komplex Forms to six or you are going to fall behind soon.
Same thing with attributes.
Yeah, it is easy to raise your Orks Body from 3 to 5, but well you can't know it would have been a lot better to raise it to 8.

The BP System lets new players make mistakes possibly screwing their character.

But for example buying a mage some Knowledge skill instead of increasing Intuition from 4 to 5 is fucking your char up forever. (Here we are talking 10 BP for 5 free BP, so as a matter of fact you pay 5 BP for something costing 25 Karma in Game)
And there are several loopholes like this. Getting a spec. at Chargen, screws you too.
Binding Sprites (as a Technomancer) is also a waste of BP (if you are not only playing one run with this char).

Karma might be a bit tougher on calculating, but everyone has a pocket calculator. But for the BP system you need to know the game. You need to know the Karma costs afterwards. You need to know your group. It is not a big deal to build two 400 BP characters where after giving them 50 Karma the one Char can do anything the other char can do and has additional abilitys worth 100 Karma.
Human: Strengh two instead of edge 6. 10 compared to 30 Karma.
Perception 1 instead of automatics 5 to 6: 4 to 12 Karma.

@Fortinbras

Some people think they were an april fool. I tend to agree with those.


I personal find it more than amusing to hear that from someone promoting to play with rules from an april fool.

Posted by: Fortinbras Apr 18 2011, 10:44 AM

My apologizes. I wasn't being clear. I do not now, nor would I ever, play, nor would I let any of my players play, a dragon in Shadowrun. It's absurd. It's why I find the April Fools Day rules hilarious.
There are those, however, who think the rules aren't unbalanced and use them anyway. These people missed the point of the joke. This does not prevent them from posting on Dumpshock. A quick search-fu will show those who believe the April fools rules to be a viable playing tool are not small. This makes me weep for the future.
I was trying to say "There are those who use the April fools rules, and they don't understand why it's funny." not "Some people use them, justifying why their use is acceptable. I don't understand why they are funny."

Near as I can tell, those joke rules are the only ones published that make out rules for creating a dragon PC. Those who promote this as a usable supplement are also those who are the biggest proponents of karmagen.

I hope that made more sense.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 18 2011, 01:00 PM

I'm happy with BP. Also, what?:

Does 'screwing their character' mean 'not fully optimized to hell and back'? At worst, they 'waste' a handful of karma, but they get the character they want.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 18 2011, 02:04 PM

Karma for upgrades is a hurdle, itself. Assigning points is intuitive. I can set a new player down with the priority system and explain a few basic mechanics, and left to his own devices he'll produce a character that's probably not half bad.



Pretty much this. Karma seems keyed specifically to make highly optimized characters, with no wasted space. Characters that are min/maxed in order to take total advantage of future Karma expenditures also tend to take advantage of getting shot in the face.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 18 2011, 02:12 PM

I'm not worried about karma being 'for optimization', I just take serious issue with the idea that a newbie's BP character is 'screwed'. Imagine the same new player using karmagen and spending 'too much' on his troll's maxed strength? What a fool! How screwed!

Since we're talking about it, though: why is one of the major differences (KG/BP) the fact that KG allows access to Submersion/Initiation? That's a simple case of the two 'gens' playing by different rules, not different numbers; hardly fair.

Posted by: Makki Apr 18 2011, 02:16 PM

I don't want a character to be built quickly. Neither as a GM nor a PC. It's supposed to be done thoroughly, put some thought in it (matching stats and background etc.)
First session of a new campaign: Explain what it's about and decide who's gonna play what.
Second session: everybody has a character done, all look over it and on we go. That's one week's time for chargen math and background. BP math might take 1 hour and karmagen math takes 2 hours. But who cares? For someone new to join the table, you give something ready-to-play and if he likes the game, he has a week to figure it out...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 02:54 PM

This only matters if you are going to Maximize yoru character to the fullest possible extent, which most people need to learn to do. In fact, optimization is not the first reaction to playing the game, at least in my experience. It is to build a character that will follow a concept. And this is where we, as GM's, need to take a hand. If you allow a brand new player to build a character with absolutely no input as to how the world works, then you only have yourself to blame for that.

As for the above, I completely disagree about the Technomancer example you gave. I find it false on many, many levels.



Also Disagree on this as well... Not everyone has a 5 in Intuiition. And Knowledge Skills are much more useful than the Increase in intuition that you espouse. Also, sometimes it makes sense to Specialize in CG. I often do it, in fact, especially if it fits the character. Is it a waste? Arguable, at best.



Again, this is a case of assisting the new player to build appropriately to your game. It is also very dependant upon the player involved. What one player sees as Gimped, another player sees as perfectly playable. Styles differ.

Anyways...

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 03:02 PM

@Yerameyahu
I do not care if the differance is up o 50 Karma or so. But here you can easy go up to 100+ Karma.

No, they get the weaker variant of the character they wanted, because they did not know the game. And nothing throughout the game will ever change that.
Sorry, but how many chars do start without any skill 6 or 5? And do not give me it always fits the character. It normaly (looking at the description of the skill) would not.

If you would stretch the skill range from 1-7 to 1-12 and you would be using Karma Gen, I bet you would not see a lot of people running aroung with Automatics 10, beeing the äquivalent of former 6 (concerning the fluff).
(But it back in BP-Gen and you would get a lot of starting sams with 10 (since it would be a cheap to buy it now, compared to later).

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

What you say is true for stuff like: Forgot to pick street knowedge skill. Prefered combat skill 1 over combatskill 2(which is much more awsome) etc.
I do not say, it has to be impossible to build a "weak" character.


That does not change the fact, that BP system rewards players for minmaxing the hell out of their characters and punishs players who don't.


So it is "good", if the system punishs you for not taking intuition 5?

If you compare Inution 5 and 5 BP of knowledge skills against Intuition 4 and 10 BP of knowledge skill, the first is better. (And both options cost 10 BP)

Posted by: Makki Apr 18 2011, 03:13 PM

It doesn't allow for initiation. The GM allows for it. And we never even talked about it as we think it's silly.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 18 2011, 03:16 PM

That is bizarre. Fortunately I think it's also a sidebar option as opposed to part of the basic system, unless that's been updated outside of RC.



I certainly do. Why in the hell should it take that long and be so fiddly? You can thoroughly stat a character in any sort of character generation system, much in the way you can thoroughly build a sofa from Ikea without having to mill the wood, cast the bolts, and grow the cotton so you can sew the upholstery all yourself. Maybe it's not the best sofa you ever built, but it still does all the things a sofa should do. It shouldn't take 5 hours to go from concept to character sheet, wasting all your time thinking about dropping Parachuting by 1 point and losing a couple rating points on your second Commlink's Browse program to get back just enough cash for a BP/Karma so you can take a 5 point addiction and get that Reaction from 3 to 4.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 03:18 PM

False, and False....

Example: MOST of my characters start out with NO Skill at 6, and only rarely a Skill at 5 (and by rarely, I mean 1 in about 10)
Never forget that Skill ratings of 3 are PROFESSIONAL rated... How many people that you deal with, on a day to day basis, even have a 5 Skill (ELITE) in any thing that they pursue? I would bet none. By your arguments, EVERY character should have an ELITE or BEST OF THE BEST (5 or 6) rating in at least One skill, if not more. A Skill of 5, 6 or 7 RARELY fits a character, especially one that is supposed to be new to the Scene (as a New Character at least). If they are an established character, where that level of skill is relevant and normal, then they are so far beyond 400 BP that they should not really be a topic of discussion.



I find your arguments lack a lot of substance here. Fluff wise, you will rarely see a character with a skill above 4, and yet you argue for just that thing out of Character Generation. It all comes down to how you design a character. If you are the Best of the Best (or heaven forbid, Legendary) in a skill, why exactly do the corps not try to extract you on a weekly, if not daily, basis. As a starting character, you would never be able to stop that.

BP Character Generation is the easiest method, by far. And I have to agree with Makki here. I do not need to create a character FAST (though I can). I would much rather be thorough. Does Karma Gen work? Sure. Does Priority Work? Sure. But both are advanced methods of creating a character that a New Player should not be bothered with.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 18 2011, 03:23 PM

Priority's about as un-advanced as the system can get. BP isn't overly complex, but it's still very fiddly. Karma just gets ridiculous.

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 03:42 PM

Funny, in your earlyer post you said: Players need help to get along with the BP system.

Sorry to repeat it:
BP is not easy it is fast.
Karma is easy (if the rules would have been written properly) but it is slow.

A generation system is easy if it does not offer a lot of choices.
F.e: No stuff with an availability higher 12 etc.

It is getting harder if the cost from generation to game are differant, if there are ways around given restrictions (born rich, restricted gear, Metagenetic qualities etc)

I am not saying that the Karma system is perfect, there are loopholes too.
(For example a adept getting magic 3 and 1.1 Points of second hand Cyberware to get back to 1, so he can get in game another Point of cyber and an other point of Magic.)
Instead of the newbe adept who is starting out pure and tries to add some cyber to his build with magic 5.
(So he ends up paying the same amount of Karma for 2 point of ware the other guy is paying for 4)

What I do no get is why people try to defend a system, which is obvious worse than the other one...

Speaking for which group? (Thats what I meant with you need to know the group)
And this is all background knowledge a new player does not have.
Of course the GM can build a char for the new guy, but should a system aim for that?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 03:48 PM

I find the Priority System in SR4 to be fiddly, in a lot of regards, especially because certain things are decided already for you (It requires much more in the way of sacrifice than BP does, at least in my experience. It also reduces your choice, which I, also, do not like). BP is superior in that regard, at least in my opinion. I can get what I want, within limits, because you often have to make some sacrifices for what you want (Guess I cannnot be WORLD CLASS in this skill, or World Class in this Attribute... Ow well). Charcters, because of their sacrifices, become a little more alive for me. I tend to see a lot of skills in the 1-3 range, rather than a lot in the 3-6 range; and Stats remain in the "norms" for the majority of humanity (pre-augmentation of course). Karma Gen allows everything, with little to no sacrifice, which is why I dislike it so much.

BUT, As Yerameyahu will no doubt point out, our table tends to run a bit atypical to normal tables. Dice pools of 8-12 do not bother us as much as it seems to bother others here on Dumpshock. *shrug*

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 03:52 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Now you are jocking, are you?

If you think 750 Karma Chars are too good, go with 600 Karma. (Whats the fuzz about that?)
But the Kramasystem does not punish you for getting these two skill at three instead of this one skill at 6. (The BP System on the other hand does)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 18 2011, 04:01 PM

God forbid, Irion, that they get a *slightly* weaker version of the same character. PnP is PvP after all—right?—so no doubt they'll get ganked by the powergamers. No, it's a game custom-tailored by the GM to the group, and a couple of dice (literally) isn't going to ruin the game for them. Under no circumstances are they "screwed" by not understanding the numerical idiosyncrasies of the various chargen systems. More likely, they'll be screwed by not knowing what gear to buy.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 18 2011, 04:05 PM

OK, so how does this all tie back in to Free Spirit PCs in SR4?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 04:36 PM

No, I am not joking.

I have compared characters, from time to time, with each system, and you get significantly more powerful characters with Karma Gen compared to the BP system. Attributes are higher across the board, and skills are more plentiful with larger skill levels. Happened each and every time I compared. Even with new Karma Gen Costs. If I want a more proficient character, I would go with Karma Gen, as it does not force those hard decisions upon the character as to what skills (and their levels) they would like. But, as I am happy with the BP system, I do not need to do that.

As for your solution... If it takes a decrease in the Karma Gen Starting Allotment to get the points down to something that I already get with the BP system, why would I want to do that? BP covers me quite nicely, thank you.

AS for how this ties back to Free Spirit PC's, pbangarth? The BP system is perfectly fine for creating a functional and interesting Free Spirit character.

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 04:57 PM

Because the one taking the 6 instead of twice 3 won't be rewarded.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 04:58 PM

I disagree...

Posted by: kzt Apr 18 2011, 05:46 PM

The Dragon PC rules are not any more broken than free spirit PC rules. Or any less broken.

Posted by: kzt Apr 18 2011, 05:49 PM

The skill table in SR4 is worthless, has always been worthless and will never be anything other then worthless. Skill doesn't matter in SR, dice pools matter in SR.

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 05:51 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So he will be rewarded? How exactly?

Posted by: Makki Apr 18 2011, 05:52 PM

I'd go so far and say, the Dragon PC rules are slightly better


sad but true. I will try to convince my table to go with max dice pool = skill x4 once we start a new campaign

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 18 2011, 05:55 PM

*nods sagely* Very inscrutable, kzt. Are you saying the Dragon rules are good, and/or the spirit rules are bad, or what?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 06:52 PM

That is an opinion that I disaree with (and always have)... we use it quite well at our table... Skill measures how much you know about the particular subject.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 06:52 PM

6 vs. Twice 3?

What exactly does that mean? It makes no sense...

Posted by: kzt Apr 18 2011, 07:06 PM

The dragon rules are just as good as the totally awful spirit rules.

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 07:08 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
In BP it cost the same about to get one skill to six or two skills to 3.
If you look at the karma costs it is 28 vs 44.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 07:25 PM

Ahhh... I see.

So what... They are completely different Character Generation Systems...

The guy with a Skill of 6 (Exceedingly rare at our table to start with, by the way) has 1 skill, while the other guy has 2. I would think it is obvious from that alone. The guy with a 6 Skill is better at that skill than the other one with the skill of 3. The other one has a skill the first likely does not, and both of his skills are at professional rating. Higher skill results in higher dice pool. In this case you have a guy with 6 dice from skills, and a guy with 2 skills, each with 3 dice bonus. same 6 dice as far as I am concerned.

What is your complaint at that point?

Posted by: Irion Apr 18 2011, 07:54 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
My point is, they both will increase with karma later on. And after a while it will look like:
4/6 to 3/6.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 18 2011, 08:04 PM

And they'll be different by one skill point?! Nooo!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2011, 09:19 PM

Indeed, whatever shall they do?

Posted by: Turing Apr 27 2011, 05:54 AM

This conversation is all well and good, but it has digressed from the original questions about Free Spirit PC's and the generation thereof.

As the OP, I was wanting to know if there had ever been a resolution to the shit-poor wording of the Free Spirit rules, and whether or not that resolution was generally accepted.

From what I've seen, this forum is split about 50%/50% on these rules. Some agree with my interpretation, others see the opposite.

I think I'll be sitting down with my GM and discussing a version that suits us, our play style and the rest of our group.

The many comments (both pro & con) have shown me things I had not previously considered about Free Spirit PC's and their design (at least within the BP system), and I'll be incorporating these insights when I speak with my GM.

Thank you all for your feedback and commentary, it is much appreciated.

Posted by: darthmord Apr 27 2011, 06:55 PM

The way I intend on doing it is like so:

Cost: 100 BP (or karma under Karmagen)
Starting Force: 2
Starting Attributes: 2
Max Attributes: Force
Force Increases do NOT increase the minimum attributes.
If Materialized/Possessing, they can see normally like any other character.

I've probably forgotten a few things but that's what I can remember off the top of my head.

This is what I gather from several comments and such about what the author had originally intended (though my cost is a bit higher than the author originally submitted). I'm probably going to start up a new gaming group as I've had a few people ask if I would run Shadowrun for them.

I agree with you though. The wording was very poorly done. I suspect the Force & Attributes were supposed to only be linked on starting attributes and on the caps, not the minimums.

Posted by: redwulf25 Apr 27 2011, 10:25 PM

Re-edit: The only advice on finding this errata was search the forum. I used the search function, searched for "runners companion errata" and the search results were the entire forum. Does anyone have a link to this errata, in English? Also can we start a fund to slap the company until they publish all the errata and books in ENGLISH as well as German?

Posted by: kzt Apr 27 2011, 10:49 PM

That's probably the best option.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 28 2011, 05:50 PM

Then again, you'd be paying 315 BP for metatype + attributes, leaving very little for skills and gear. Not to mention none of your maximums will be impressive out of the gate. You'll be middling in most areas.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 28 2011, 06:49 PM

And you're a free spirit, an incredible being with unique and amazing powers, that doesn't rely too much on skills (and especially not on gear!). Give them karma as normal and be done with it.

Posted by: Starmage21 Apr 28 2011, 08:56 PM

Except the powers available to free spirits are neither special nor amazing. Most of that 250 bp is a horrible "snowflake tax".

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 28 2011, 08:59 PM

… they are. I can't imagine what you're talking about; we've spent a good chunk of the thread on that.

Personally, and as I've stated before, I don't think either of these two options is the right choice. However, I don't think that the 'weak' version is so bad that our *only* recourse is to use the 'crazy strong' version instead. If you're aiming for the middle, you have several choices. Two of those are: you can either reduce the cost of the 'weak' version *a little*, or you can increase the cost of the 'strong' version.

Posted by: Sephiroth Apr 28 2011, 09:09 PM

Compared to what other spirit powers, exactly? Energy Drain (Karma)?

These powers are immediately identifiable as extremely useful both to the spirit and to its fellow PC's:
Accident
Concealment
Divining
Fear
Guard
Influence
Movement
Regeneration

These powers are not so directly helpful, but have enormous potential if used intelligently:
Aura Masking
Confusion (example: When being chased by some gangers/yaks/lone star/whatever, head onto the highway. Then the FSPC can use Concealment and Confusion to hide the exits from the team's pursuers while the team takes a now-Concealed exit)
Mutable Form
Psychokinesis
Realistic Form
Spirit Pact
Weather Control

How exactly are these powers "neither special nor amazing," particularly in comparison to the abilities of most other character archetypes (mages don't count, since free spirits aren't meant to fulfill a mage role)?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 28 2011, 09:39 PM

But a Free Spirit CAN fulfill the Mage roll, as they are all Magicians. With no actual Quality Cost even.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 28 2011, 09:57 PM

And they don't have to buy Magic.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 28 2011, 10:02 PM

Indeed... The Only Drawback is they get no Conjuration Skills.

Posted by: Sephiroth Apr 28 2011, 10:16 PM

I was referring to the fact that metahuman mages are very often stronger in the magician role than free spirits, since they tend to have more dice for spellcasting and can summon spirits noticeably stronger than a free spirit PC. I'm not saying FSPCs can't serve as a magician, only that they tend to be a lot weaker than traditional magicians unless they hyperspecialize.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 28 2011, 10:22 PM

The only bonuses a Free Spirit cannot use are from Foci. They can use any other bonus out there, Including Specialization, Initiation and the Mentor Quality. The ONE free spirit I created had a 4 Casting Skill, and a 6 Magic. 10 Dice to start with. About typical for a Starting Mage. I agree that Foci give the Metahuman the potential to outstrip the Free Spirit given a bit of time. But that does not have to be the case. And, I think that Free Spirit Powers make up for that quickly as well.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 28 2011, 10:24 PM

There's also Focus Addition that Free Spirits don't have to deal with.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 28 2011, 10:26 PM

There is that...
And with the right Pacts, A Free Spirit will quickly outstrip the PC's in Karma Gain. "Life Pact" for the Win.

Posted by: Starmage21 Apr 28 2011, 11:47 PM

Except that most of these powers are available to any magician PC for an investment of far less points, because he can summon a spirit who has them.

Posted by: Sephiroth Apr 29 2011, 12:34 AM

Which is irrelevant, because those spirits are NPC's controlled by the GM. We are not talking about how much stronger NPC spirits are to equal-force PC spirits (which is a fair bit), we are talking about how FSPC's have some very significant advantages over most other PC's. You just can't play a FS like a normal character.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 29 2011, 12:55 AM

Isn't it more like: those spirits are PC's controlled by you, unless you run out of favors?

Posted by: Sephiroth Apr 29 2011, 01:58 AM

Not really. Summoned spirits (not free spirits, at least most of the time) are obligated to do things that you ask them to do, but they are not PC's under your control. They are still NPC's. For one thing, only they decide whether they use Edge on any given action or not; you have no control over how they use their Edge. For another thing, the books strongly encourage GM's to play spirits as fully intelligent beings who are persons in their own right (a.k.a. they are NOT the magical equivalent of an Agent).

Posted by: phlapjack77 Apr 29 2011, 02:49 AM

Agreeing with you here, except that even Agents are still mostly NPCs. It's why they introduced the "Adaptability" autosoft in Unwired and have tests for the GM to roll to see how well the Agent interprets the PCs commands and all that.

The only example of "NPC controlled by the PC" that I can think of is when a mage is possessed by a spirit the mage summoned, and SM suggests that the GM let the PC control the spirit's actions in this case.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 29 2011, 04:41 AM

Minor detail here: the Mentor Spirit Quality is not available to Free Spirit PCs. (Runner's Companion, page 93.)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 29 2011, 04:46 AM

Cuz it would be ridiculous. Not as in OP, but as in… mentor spirit-spirit.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Apr 29 2011, 06:27 AM

Strange...I'm not seeing why a spirit PC shouldn't have the Mentor Spirit quality. What harm does it cause?. Aside from the ridiculous wording of mentor spirit-spirit

I mean, mentor spirits aren't actually spirits, right? More like ideas, templates, eidos, arche, etc...

"Each mentor spirit embodies an ideal, a mythic image or archetype."

Posted by: CanRay Apr 29 2011, 06:31 AM

Someday I have to come up with the Toaster Mentor...

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 29 2011, 08:32 AM

We need more toasters in the world.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 29 2011, 12:49 PM

Apparently I missed that... Apologies.

But thematically, I think it is appropriate. A Free Spirit of Death could be beholden to The Dark King, for example.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 29 2011, 03:07 PM

I don't understand it either, but it is clear in the text.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 29 2011, 03:45 PM

Indeed...

Posted by: Seth Apr 30 2011, 06:15 AM

Having played a free spirit for nearly 6 months now, I feel without doubt the mage is MUCH better at magic. Lets look at why:

Mages can sustain spells by: foci, bound spirits, ally spirits and concentration. The concentation sucks as its -2 on almost everything per sustained spells
Mages can boost their spells by foci, bound spirits, ally spirits, the magic attribute and skill. The attributes and skills are hard to increase as they require huge amounts of karma
Mages can access all spirit powers by summoned spirits, bound spirits and ally spirits. They can change which ones they have access to.

So now lets compare that spirits
Spirits can sustain spells by: concentration (which as stated previously sucks)
Spirits can boost their spells by the magic attribute and skill.
Spirits have to pick a small subset of the spirit powers and cannot change them

A starting mage could have a mentor spirit, a foci rank 4, and a bound spirit rank 4 a total of 6 die for most spells, and 10 die when they want to use a service better off
Experienced mages are even better: a mentor spirit, an ally spirit rank 4, a bound spirit rank 4, and a rank 4 foci a total of 14 die better than the spirit.

The inability to sustain spells easy is probably the biggest pain: I don't think I have played a mage that could not easily sustain 2 spells. Sustain foci cost 30K, and 3 bp for a total of 9 bp.
The combination of all of the above basically makes the spirit a second class spell caster

Having said all that I love playing my spirit, probably more than I like playing mages.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Apr 30 2011, 08:11 AM

Do spirits just do (Str/2)stun damage and (Str/2) physical damage with natural weapons.
And what about in astral space? Do they do (Cha/2)stun or (Force/2)stun.
And is that then upped by natural weapons in astral to be physical condition track damage?
Regardless I figure the attack counts as a non normal weapon for bypassing armor.

Posted by: Irion Apr 30 2011, 10:12 AM

What is the main advantage of a free spirit?
Quickening spells!!!
You do not get any disadvantages from doing so.
You are dual natured, you shine like a chrismas tree so what the fuck.
The best spell is increase attribute by the way. (This is actually the case, because the attributes of a free spirit go down, as his force goes down)

Example:
A elf shaman has a quickend attribute spell to increase his charisma from 5 to 12.
The spell has a Force of 8.
Now he is entering BC.
BC1: Force of spell:7 Charisma 12
BC2: Force of spell:6 Charisma 11
BC3:Force of spell: 5 Charisma 10
BC4: Force of spell: 4 -> Spell fails! Charisma 5.
Spirit with same attributes and magic 8:
BC1: Charisma 10 (augmented max)
BC2: Charisma 9 (augmented max)
BC3: Charisma 8
BC4: Charisma 6
BC5: Charisma 5.

The only real Problem for quickend spell (if you have extended masking) is to be broken by a ward. For that you have to walk trough a ward without noticing it. Ever walked throug a wall without noticing it? I do not thinks so. Even the elevator driving through a Ward ain't a Problem. You just go astral.

(To Free spirits and Mentor spirit: I would houserule this section anyway. )

What do you get for beeing a free spirit:
Armor raiting equal to Force*2! (And you may wear additional armor if you like)

Since the rules for realistic form are insanly broken the combination of realistic Form and multible Form is just great.
1.5 Power Points for the wet dream of every Face in the book. Look like anyone or anything you want in just a sec. Race (actually species), Gender, cloth. No problem at all. You get anything at any time. (And thats the part, thats not broken. Turining your Hand into a Lasercannon is)
(Well, your GM could disallow you from using your Foms as weapons by housrouling the part about spirit toasters working (stupid thing to begin with)
But you still can pick up natural weapon and turn into a mosikto and sting someone for Force damage.
(Finally I know what the white rabbit was I way you needed a holy handgranade to kill it.)

Ability to hide inside of solid matirial. What kind of Security team is looking IN the ground?

Ability to travel at the speed of thought. (Combined with "I do not need any kind of equipment...)
Oh, and you do not need food. Or even sleep.
Since your Astral vision is always on you get no mali for it.

Immunity to most pathogens and toxics. (Since you do not have any nerves)
Immunity against any kind of nanobots. (Yeah I am looking at you cutters)

Leaving NO DNA, blood etc.

Yeah spirits are comming out under in BP gen. (On the other hand they are able to make rediculas amounts of Karma in a month (1000 would be the lower end).
So yeah if you want to run with free spirits you have to houseroule them.
I would take a look at the friendship pact.
(As a matter of fact, I would just use the formular pact for that. You may earn Karma but stops you from using any other form of Karma source.
Nobody wants a free spirit to spend two power points for getting drain and life pact. A life pact with a shadowrunner and the Secs he is fighting is just a great thing.
It is the day when nobody dies. And since Karma of NPCs is unlimited and useless for them...)


You have to get to know how you want to fly with the perception of free spirits. (I would disallow trode nets but allow them to read from a display. Since reading a display is not different from reading a book.

Then there is all this funny stuff. Like getting the group mage to bind you using invocation.
Ah yeah and you can fly.

Yes, free spirits are weaker in points. Put their diversity makes up for that on the long run.
getting a Magic/Edge 9/8 spirit is power to be considered.
A mage has to be incredible powerfull to bind a spirit of this force.
Espacially if the spirits decides to use edge... The mage could easy end up with about 30 possible boxes of drain.
And since a free spirit is able to make use of the increase attribute spell with ease he will have attributes to match his force. (12 Karma for 9 points of an attribute is a very good deal!)
Then you could apply the optional rule for adepts (taking geasas to reduce the costs of powers) for spirits two. Since it is mentioned, that spirit powers are similar to adept powers. You could also allow

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Apr 30 2011, 11:49 AM

I think realistic form when combined with multiple form still needs aura masking to still be that useful. Anyway in street magic it says that if a spirit materializes with a weapon, that weapon still has no more reach or damage than just being unarmed. So you could shift your from to be holding a laser rifle, but it would still be just as good as, use the same skill as, and have the same range as being unarmed. Then again your elemental attack if you have one might take on the look of you shooting some strange weapon. It is all style at that point.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 30 2011, 03:24 PM

The BC reduced the spell's force to 4, not 0. Why would the spell fail?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 30 2011, 03:42 PM

Badmoodguy, that's the thing about Realistic Form, as opposed to merely Mutable Form.

Longbowrocks, the spell has to beat their normal attribute to be effective.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 30 2011, 04:53 PM

That's a weird way for a spell to work.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 30 2011, 05:33 PM

The Realistic Form/ Mutable Form/ Aura Masking combination is a powerful one indeed, and can be enhanced with the Disguise Skill, whose dice pool is augmented by Force when Mutable Form is active. Both Free Spirits I play have this combination. Add the amazingly versatile Artisan Skill, and you can walk into just about anyplace as the guy they hired to redecorate... and actually carry out the redecoration!

Increase Attribute is a great spell, but like so many of the boosting spells it is Physical, and will dissipate the instant you go astral. The limitation to Mana spells in the astral plane severely reduces the usefulness of Quickening for Free Spirits, one of whose greatest advantages is the ability to pop in and out of the material plane.

Posted by: Irion Apr 30 2011, 06:35 PM

As a matter of fact, I thought that too. But someone here on dumpshock said, it is only a limitation on casting. If it is sustained it stays.
(Does make sense as a matter of fact. )

(Well, and as a matter of fact, there is no reason not to make it a mana spell afterall. The rules for that are in Streetmagic. You will even have less drain.)

On word to the qualities:
I think you should make it a GM call in any case. There are just some thing not making any thing (celerity for a free spirit ?)
Mentor spirit on the other hand is a very fitting.
(It would even fit to make it a must have)

Posted by: kzt Apr 30 2011, 08:33 PM

The rules for PC free spirits are so bad that you have to house rule at least a bit to even create a character. IMNSHO the GM and player should just figure out something that works, isn't overpowering, doesn't break his game (and materialization or a few other powers might do that to some games) and fits with the other characters. And then reserve the right to make changes if it doesn't work as expected.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 30 2011, 09:50 PM

From SR4A, on page 182 it says,

"A physical spell can only affect a target that has a physical form, and is incapable
of affecting an astral form (see the Astral World, p. 191)."

And on page 193 it says,

"Only mana spells affect astral forms."

The fact that they use 'affect' in both cases, rather than talking about casting, is hard to read any way except that physical spells don't work in astral space.

Does anyone have something concrete to contradict this?

Posted by: Sephiroth Apr 30 2011, 10:56 PM

Prove it, kzt. You keep saying that FSPC's are terrible and weak and horribly overpriced and unworkable character types and so on, but 1) you've yet to provide any concrete proof that they suck as much as you say they do, and 2) you have repeatedly failed to respond to and counter the arguments of those who have expressed disagreement with your statements. It's a slight bit rude in terms of open discussion etiquette, actually.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 30 2011, 11:49 PM

People being rude on the Internet? Say it ain't so!

Also, does he need to provide proof? He says he's right, and thus it's so. Right? Why let facts get in the way of things?

Posted by: kzt Apr 30 2011, 11:52 PM

RAW says that force is both the maximum and minimum for all stats. To raise any stat requires raising force, which therefore requires raising every stat at the same time.

It's odd, but every person who says that RAW PC free spirits are just fine has also said that they ignores that rule because it's stupid. So yes, the people who claim RAW is fine have to house rule character creation.

Posted by: pbangarth May 1 2011, 12:03 AM

Welllll.... there are two interpretations of the same text, one of which most who play FSPCs use because it makes playable, not-overpowering PCs.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 1 2011, 02:38 AM

pbangarth, it's still ambiguous. "Affect" could mean during casting, or at any time; I'm assuming RAI is that Increase Charisma don't work on astral either way. I could see a sustained casting of it 'go dormant' while the spirit was astral, and kick back into effect when appropriate. Or, the spell instantly drops when the spirit stops being a valid target. Quickening might change things more, because it's karma-paid. It's unclear, so the GM can just decide what's balanced, and what's fair.

Posted by: pbangarth May 1 2011, 04:06 AM

Unfortunately, page count and ink-price restrictions prevent manual writers from detailing all possible variations of a rule's usage. We have to do some digging ourselves. There is the similar situation of background count, in which Quickened spells, even if totally negated, repair themselves after leaving the BC area of effect. So I guess, as you suggest, a Quickened Increase Attribute spell could disappear on the astral, only to reappear once the Free Spirit returned to the physical plane.

Posted by: Irion May 1 2011, 06:58 AM

@Yerameyahu
I had this interpretation two. But as a matter of fact it does not make any sence looking at it in the game.
Why should the spell stop working on the spirit, if he is leaving the material plane? (If it would need a physical body it would fail anyway)

(As a matter of fact I dislike increase attribute to be a physical spell, because it should only work on living beeings after all. You do not want to increase the "body" of a drone, do you?)

@pbangarth

So you have to guess what they intended with the rules. Why it is a physical instead of a mana spell.
How physical spell are supposed to work anyway etc.

Posted by: kzt May 1 2011, 07:51 AM

Yeah, I can certainly see how that would be problem, given that IMR charges only $45 for 379 pages versus HERO that charges a full $40 for a mere 460 pages. ...

Posted by: Irion May 1 2011, 08:22 AM

It ain't a problem of word limitations.
It is a question of how the rules are created. If you add aditional possibilities as does Shadowrun you will run into Problems, because the rules already written mostly did not account for the rules to come.

For example: All the spirits in Streetmagic got Counterspelling, none of the basic spirits has it. Why not?
The counterspelling was (I suppose) a idea to stop the Stunbolting of spirits.
To stunbolt a force 7 spirit is now quite a Problem to solve.
But since the old spirits do not have these benefits they are much weaker.

BC is an other example. Every mage with no initiations is close to useless if he hits BC 2 or even 3. This leads gamemasters to not using a BC for the most part.
Because if you give the Barrans a BC of 2 the magic 4 mage with logic 4 and willpower 4 will be close to useless.
So there is mostly no penalty for astral perception, making it (in combat) the most usefull kind of perception. (exept for the -2)
Furthermore there is also the possibility to get boni for astral perception. So you may end up with 0 or even +1.

Same thing with free spirits and health spell. Why think about it, if there are non? And honestly, why give increase attribute another -1 drain modificator?
Same thing with essence loss and vampirers. Why write essence rule, which are not working for everyone?
(For example: For every started point of essence below 6 the effectiv magic raiting is reduced by 1. )

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 1 2011, 03:36 PM

So, like I said, the GM is the one who has to decide what happens with a sustained or quickened spell on a Free Spirit. It's a pretty rare case, but obviously crucial when there's such a player in your game.

Posted by: pbangarth May 1 2011, 05:58 PM

Background count has always been one of the issues I refer to when attempting to refute the argument that mages are overpowered. I don't think the problems it brings up for astral beings were unforeseen at the time of writing. My opinion is that BC was intended from the start to be one of the issues magicians, adepts and spirits would have to deal with on a regular basis in an urban environment. You want free flow of mana? Get the hell out of the city! You want firepower in the city? Call the sammie.

This is an aside which could open up an old can of worms. So folks, please don't go there.

As far as Quickened physical spells and the astral, my GMs (for my FSPCs) and I are happy to see them fizzle.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 1 2011, 06:35 PM

Maybe THIS time around it will be resolved.

Seriously? No chance.

Posted by: Irion May 1 2011, 07:24 PM

@pbangarth

So you make them mana. (At least the health spells)
One point of drain less. No problem.

Posted by: pbangarth May 1 2011, 08:09 PM

I suspect an issue with that simple dodge around the problem is that changing the physical aspects of a person's body, whether strength, speed of neurons, whatever, may be seen by a GM as requiring a physical spell.

The description on page 159 of Street Magic (under Step 2: Choose Spell Type) of what kinds of effects mana spells and physical spells have seems pretty clear on this point.

Posted by: Irion May 1 2011, 09:01 PM

@pbangarth

Well, whats a spirit?
So for a spirit any increase attribute spell has to be mana in the first place.

Anyway, increase charisma, willpower, logic or intuition would be ok as mana spells for metahumans.