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Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 03:02 AM

This title seems general enough to spur conversation. Especially since I don't know exactly what we were arguing before.
This thread is running on the assumption that the awakened characters have had a few hundred karma to sink into initiation, and unawakened are doing other stuff with their karma.

My problem with mages in any game is that they can be powerful, but they can also be rendered helpless as kittens by obscure means. Shadowrun is better about this since mages can invest in armor, body, and guns. On the other hand, Shadowrun awakened characters don't have incredibly high damage, and still have strange weaknesses on top of the things that can hurt unawakened characters.

I think I posted this a bit early, but I'll take responses as they come.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2011, 03:11 AM

Do they outshine? Sure! They're rare and powerful, often looked at with shock and awe by the populous. Even with the percentage that goes into Shadowrunning, they're rare.

There is one mitigating thing that levels the playing field pretty fraggin' quick, however: "Geek the mage first!"

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 03:13 AM

Don't forget the difference between 'outshine' and 'invulnerable'. The question is *only* the former.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 19 2011, 03:18 AM

Hm hm... overall: Yes. They (can) start out more powerful, have more available tricks, can not be countered (except for other mages against spells and nothing against powers) and have an slower but more open-ended powergain. (Just take a look at my group: Essentially the mage does most healing, most information gathering, most damage in combat, most heavy lifting, most "legwork"... just needs a bit help for some social and technical issues.)

This doen't mean that being mundane is being weak, or unplayable though.

Just to add to the whole "magic is broken": A few things really are a bit weird (buying spells at powerlevel would be nice again, splitting the system like in 3rd edition - spirits and all- and allow for innate natural resistance of equal level for a price), but magic does belong in Shadowrun like butter on the bread.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 03:21 AM

I don't know about that. Can't you just buy "astral hazing" at creation and hang out in your neighborhood for a few years? Or laugh at awakened characters in general?

That is to say, I can't think of any way to make an area of effect "screw you" for unawakened characters.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 03:27 AM

Bullet. Done.


How do you figure? There's no way to reliably do max damage for a mage, and at creation they need to fully overcast for 12 DV attacks, which won't do 12 DV, whereas my face/sammie/infiltrator can spam 12DV attacks twice an IP, or switch to a full auto weapon.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 03:33 AM

As I already told you, Astral Hazing is both rare and extreme, and hurts you as much as it helps. And it's not invulnerability to magic, either.

Saying 'bullet' means nothing, come on. His point is that mundanes can't stop spells.

… Once again, the mage (mysad, etc.) can use the same gun for the same attacks that those guys can. A mage needn't *ever* use attack spells, though they're really good in some situations. And (because it bears repeating), direct spells ignore armor.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 19 2011, 03:53 AM

Eh one vs. one fight:

Mage is attacker: Just summones a spirit and commands it to engulf the "dude in the next room", or just magegoggle: Mindcontrol - "Kill yourself" done.

Overcasting to a force 12 spell... so what? it's not like they will get any drain or something. And no armor againt it *g*.


While a combined background count and or arcane arrester and such works GREAT against most mages, against a very powerful one it is just no real hindrance. (BC can be nullified and even harnessed by high-level initiates)

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 03:58 AM

I didn't see any listed downsides to the metagenetic quality in runners companion, though some may be inferred. Are you talking about a cyberzombie's inherent Astral Hazing?


Willpower is generally what they use to stop spells, then you can add magic resistance if you have it.


So, just buffs? that was 10 BP for MysAd, 65 for 6 magic, and 150 karma to raise it to 9. In the meantime a sammie would have 75 extra BP for bioware, gear, attributes, and skills, and max his will, edge, and a few other things with karma.


Loophole there. You can only cast direct through LOS. full body armor + face mask would prevent LOS, like in augmentation page 160, on cyberzombies:
"The only living
part of a jarhead—the brain—is encapsulated within the CCU
which itself is enclosed within the drone body, where it is effectively
safe from spell targeting. Instead, the drone body itself
must be targeted by spells."

It makes sense that the same rules would apply here since the only thing the mage sees is your armor.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 04:04 AM

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I feel like you think we're stupid.

The downside is no mages on *your* side, and SURGE is not common. The question is not 'can you build an anti-mage character?'. It is 'do Awakened characters outshine mundanes, especially in the really long run?'. You should know, because you asked the question!

Willpower is rarely adequate, and who has magic resistance? How much? See above.

'Just buffs' is the whole game of SR. And no, because they *also* get attack spells, and utility spells, and spirits, etc. etc. No one said you needed Magic 9, either, or even Magic 6 to start. In the OP, you said 'a few hundred karma', so a small difference in initial BP isn't really relevant.

As it turns out, that's incorrect. Full body armor (masked or not) doesn't work that way. Besides, stunbolt isn't the only spell.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 19 2011, 04:14 AM

The quick answer is "sort of," and the long answer is "not really."

Magicians and Adepts can come on pretty strong and have a lot of nifty powers, abilities, and spells, but when it comes down to actually doing things, someone else is probably shining. Magicians can make it way easier for non-awakened characters to get their jobs done -- they can make the infiltrator invisible, but it's still up to the infiltrator to sneak past the guards and crack the lock. They can fight effectively, but the Street Sam will probably act faster and have a higher body count.

What ends up happening is other characters tend to get more glory than the mage, but they'd also have a really hard time making it without him.

By himself, though, the mage is mostly a big target.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 04:16 AM

Sammie goes first in the majority of cases. In most cases I'm familiar with, combat is on you before you know it, so the sammie who went first shoots the mage. With a DV 9 barett. through the car with a AP 9 bullet. Still not dead? he shoots again.


Hopefully it's more than "the next room" away, because the sammie would still go first and either one hit the spirit or charge into the next room and kill the mage.

Mage goggles -> mind control: the sammie is fully covered. You have LOS on his silk gloves though. Or sammie has a ready action to pop the goggles with his gun. Or sammie is a tank that resists with will 6 + edge 6 + magic resistance 3 = 15 dice.


How would a magic 6 mage overcast to 12 and take no drain? More precisely, how do they have over 36 dice to resist drain?


I don't see that one. Could you point me in the right direction?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 04:21 AM

Again, it's not 'can a mage beat X one-on-one?'. It's 'do Awakened characters outshine mundanes, especially in the long run?'.

I don't know why you're assuming the mage couldn't just as easily be the one going first.

I don't know why you're assuming anyone can 'one-hit the spirit'.

The mage can just as easily have Edge 6 (which is to say, not very easily). Most people don't have Edge 6. In any case, it's a resource that can quickly be depleted.

Once again, you can't avoid LOS with clothing or armor, AFAIK. There was some question about what happens in the area between full-body armor and mecha suits, but I think it was just fooling around.

You're not approaching this logically, longbowrocks. You're just tossing up unconnected points that are frequently wrong or irrelevant. It's very disappointing, after the fun in the other threads. Hmf.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 19 2011, 04:26 AM

With the BC: I am away from books now, but you can lower BC (of non-epic proportions) by your initiationrank by using a complex action and "Cleansing" and you can harness it with the advenced metamagic of "Filtering". Both are very desirable metamagics for a runner.

LOS: Armour doesn't prevent line-of sight. Neither does full clothing, or even military full-armour. Some kind of mini-mechs will do it though. If you going against a great mage OR of your vehicle/drone-body won't save you (unless you have war and used the + OR modifications presented.

Sam doesn't always go first, a combat mage, buffed up for expected resistance can be as fast. Spirits are normaly faster than mortal too, and if they are already on search-and destroy duty and in PACKS, mundanes can not stop them.

Also there are many tricks available to the mage, with no possibility for the Sam to do anything against it: Just a normal invisibility spell (not the physical) will phase him out that he can nearly not be found, combined with concealment or such the mage will almost certainly surprise the Sam (not if the same is in an enclosed room with electronic countermeasures)

All this is of course assuming a VERY good mage with high-force spirits and/or lots of foci.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 04:29 AM

This needs to be nipped in the bud. I worried people might think that, but I'm really just arguing my perspective. Please discount anything I say that seems to be patronizing.





Definitely, but that's just to broaden the scope of the discussion. I feel like the winner in a battle to the death outshines his opponent because a corpse doesn't outshine anything.


Touche, but Will + edge is much better. average 4 hits, so minimum a mage needs 12 hits to take the character down (on an average roll).



BP allows you to max attributes and skills from creation more easily. You can also buy qualities with BP, I'm to bust trying to keep up with you guys to find out if you can do the same with Karma, or if that's a house rule.


It doesn't add it's armor rating, as described in the RAW, but to not add its structure rating would be inconsistent. If you can cast a spell directly on my being just by observing a metal casing around me, how big does the casing need to be before that changes? A car? A vault?

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2011, 04:30 AM

In the long run, Magicians rock!

Ritual magic and spirit summoning alone give them multiple options and abilities that go beyond what a mundane can ever think of doing.

I'm working on a Dog Shaman at the moment, and the ideas I'm getting from Watcher Spirits alone are scaring even me.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 04:32 AM

Adrenaline rush, which a mage can't buy (a MysAd can. Barely).
Also, Reaction is primarily a sammie attribute, Intuition can equally be bought by mage or sammie, and sammies don't need to give up magic to augment these with 'ware.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 04:35 AM

See, I think making it a fight is *limiting* the scope immensely. Mages are good at tons of things, not just killing single opponents; in addition, it encourages building a custom anti-mage to fight him, which is unrealistic.

As above, Edge is expensive and exhaustible. It's not really appropriate to rely on it for this, I feel. Else, we have to let the mage use *his* Edge 6 on everything as well. This is a symptom of the anti-mage problem I mentioned: part of the reason mages shine is that *normal* people have no defense against them. If a specifically anti-mage character has some defense, that doesn't alter the general situation.

I'm not sure what you're saying about BP. I was saying that you don't need Magic 6 or 9 or whatever to be a powerful Awakened character… at all, really.

It has to be a Barrier or a Vehicle, yes. Armor is simply different, in magical terms (sorry). In magical terms, clothing and armor is *you*, for LOS.

The mage *isn't* giving up much to get the same 'ware, that's the point. That's the *whole* point of the 'long term/high karma' question. The mage can get 'ware and still get magic and spells, and everything else. Mundanes have a wall to hit. Skills can only go to maybe 7, attributes and augmentations max out, and then they're done.

Or, use the spell version (Increased Initiative, Increased Reaction, etc.). I've never seen anyone get Adrenaline Rush, but I'll admit that characters specifically with that could go first (what is it, once?). Assuming they can both see each other, etc. The mage can just as easily get Reaction and Intuition.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 04:36 AM

Lol, if everyone can forget I'm on the unawakened side for a moment, I'd like to ask about Rituals.
My GM says that ritual spells can be done using a material from the victim, like voodoo. It says pretty clearly in the core book that you need LOS or a spotter with LOS for rituals. What is he referencing?

Posted by: Hound Apr 19 2011, 04:36 AM

that's a rule for cyborgs, not cyberzombies.

More importantly, the reason a mage cannot target a cyborg in a drone body is because they have like .01 essence, there's almost nothing left of their soul. So, there's not enough left to "shine" through their drone body. Also a cyborg in a drone body is indistinguishable from a regular drone, which cannot be targeted by mana spells. However, a human in body armor is clearly a human in body armor and nearly all humans will have way more than .01 essence. I suppose stunbolt would be a lot less useful if you could just cover up your whole body to counter indirect spells, but I don't think that's what they were intending. You can't apply rules made for one special/extreme case (cyborgs) to everyone with FBA

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 19 2011, 04:40 AM

Aye, it is not just physical conflict.

Whole skills and cybersystem and equipments can be made obsolete by a simple 5 karma spell, OR by just calling a spirit to do it FOR you.

If you have guardian spirits you can operate ANY weapon with potential more skill than POSSIBLE for a mundane and without losing actions, a task-spirit can do ANY work you choose. You can levitate (or be carried by a spirit) and negate: jumping, climbing, falling, parachuting etc. By extension the POWERS of the spirits you command are YOURS. These powers (if used by a high force spirit) can not be countered and have no penalties (as sustaining spells have).

You can heal additional damage, negate all poisons, radiation, all influences. Don't need to eat etc. With time and money you can have a own "emergency-team" of spirits, making you an small army in itself. You can watch people from another plane, can find out information and persons without going to "look for it", you can see into the future and into the minds of people. No secrets from you.

And much of this you can do "on the fly"

Of course you pay for these powers... but they are overwhelming and many of them are easily possible at start and only get better.

EDIT: as for the rituals The metamagic "Sympathatic Link" allows you to cast through personal belongings and such. This and "Great Ritual" are metamagics VERY much needed for doing horrible and funny stuff through rituals.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 04:46 AM

Material and sympathetic links for ritual sorcery are Street Magic p28. Honestly, it's nothing that ever comes up in the game, for me. It *replaces* the need for a spotter. It's all crazy powerful and only serves to make magic even scarier to mundanes.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2011, 04:48 AM

He's talking about a Material Link (Street Magic, Page 28.).

Sniped. But, yes, this does replace the need. It's also handy if you have no idea whatsoever where someone is.

It's a good reason to never, ever drink or eat anything at a meet with Mr. Johnson. And, if you have a magician in your group, it's a great reason to lift the silverware/glass if (s)he's stupid enough to do it. There's a spell that increases the duration a link is good for, and if the Johnson screws you too badly...

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 04:50 AM

I'll give utility to the mages. Still arguing combat though.


Dang, the edge 6 is a good point.
I'm primarily worried about a mage hunting my character down, since all the mage needs to do is score well on 7 billion assensing checks or less to find me, and I need to do some wild stuff to prevent that.
If it's combat on the open field, he who acts first takes the day, and I'm pretty sure a sammie will acts first.


Ah, I was just saying that BP is (ironically) more efficient than Karma in the late game, since BP uses constant cost to raise things, whereas Karma cost goes up.


I'll admit that's rules as intended, and very nearly RAW, but I maintain that there is a loophole in the mechanics (one that makes a measure of sense to boot).

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 04:50 AM

Ty.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 19 2011, 04:58 AM

Yes, that is true: first one to draw and shoot when both parties have no support and preparation and just stumble over each other is the one to win.

Problem is: If powerful (and paranoid) you will only find a mage unaware while buying milk in the Stuffers Shack *g*.
In any combat situation and "infiltration" or something you have either:

Mage is "attacker" which means he has spirits on call, maybe one already materilized with him, scouted everything out on astral and has maybe illusions running (or is buffed to to the teeth)

or

Mage is "defender" which means: he has spirits on call, get information by system/patrols and is in an defended position with mage-goggles support... safe from all harm.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 04:58 AM

It's very important, as I said, not to *limit* the comparison to combat (and, further, to one-on-one combat against a *specialized* anti-mage).

Even doing that, though, I still don't see why the other character (street sam or otherwise) would go first. Assuming that colors the whole question unduly.

What irony? BP is for chargen only. I'm sure everyone would prefer to earn BP instead of karma… because it would be broken. I agree that building a high-karma character from scratch would benefit from extreme BPgen abuse (min-max everything), but I don't think that affects the Awakened/mundane question at all.

It's rules as rules. No loophole. Anything else is a house rule. Even if it were true, mages are *hardly* powerless against barriers and vehicles.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 05:00 AM

Is this assuming the spirit's attribute maxes are equal to its force? Will its AGI be equal to its force? Does it need to default on ranged weapon tests? How are you possibly going to get enough dice to summon this spirit and get any tasks owed?

Posted by: PoliteMan Apr 19 2011, 05:01 AM

A burning corpse does Seriously though, death is by no means the end of a fight. In fact, for some opponents, it may not even be a serious obstacle to killing you. They're still dead though, so bit of a MAD scenario there.

Three points on OP:

#1 Yes, Mages can get silly powerful with enough Karma. Given enough money/karma/time Faces, Adepts, Technos, Hackers, and Riggers will all get silly powerful and many of them can get there much faster than the mage. Only the Sam really gets left behind, left behind being able to survive anti-tank rounds and return fire with a bigger gun, and with that much Karma they usually branch out into something else. Seriously, build the most broken 400 BP mage with say 200 karma and a million Nuyen that you can and then let people build an equivalent Face or Hacker. You won't be worried anymore.

#2 The biggest problem I have with magic is the lack of mundane counters. Sure, a mage can't outhack a hacker or outshoot a Sam but if he drops enough money (which he doesn't really need) into guns, armor, and mooks he can at least be respectable. If you're not a mage there's, um, FAB and a couple defensive structures and that's it. It's just frustrating when the enemy mage shows up and the whole team becomes totally dependent on the mage. If any other threat shows up there's usually one guy who's specialized to deal with it but anyone else with the right precautions can at least help out. It's not quite as bad as decking used to be (or can still be) but it's frustrating. It does kind of shine a spotlight on mages because there are certain problems only they can deal with and that's not really true for anyone else.

#3 It's not the mages, it's the adepts! They need even more Karma than mages but it's so, so easy for them to drop an Essence or two to pick up the best cyberware and unlike mages they usually get great synergy between their abilities and cyberware and they can almost always afford to get Alpha or better. It seems like any mundane you can build, any skills you want to focus on, will almost always be improved by making him an adept. Yes, it'll eat up BP and Karma, making you less diverse, but SR rewards specialization over diversity. As I've been considering new character ideas, I'm almost always struck by the fact that I could improve the build by making it an adept, even if it makes no sense. Maybe I'm missing something, to be fair I haven't seen a Adept build in play that took advantage of this, but it seems like Adepts are just Mundane+ and if your options are Mage, Mundane, or Mundane+, then pretty soon everyone will be awakened, even the hackers.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 05:05 AM

Therein lies the irony. BP is much better than karma at later levels. You want BP most when you can't have it.


But then they're either attacking with an area spell, or attacking the barriers and vehicles.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 05:08 AM

I still say a mage *can* outshoot (or rather, equal-shoot) a sam. Shooting is *easy*.

#3 is a great point. We've been a little distracted with all the talk of spells, but that's it in a nutshell: "any mundane you can build, any skills you want to focus on, will almost always be improved by making him an adept." The only exception is Technomancer, the mage of hacking.

Personally, I think mystic adept is the sweet spot: all the crazy mage advantages (except Projection, but yes to nigh-irresistible spells), and the crazy adept ones (mundane+). Bleh. A lot of this depends, again, on the premise that we have a truly stupid amount of karma to burn.
--
That's like saying youth is wasted on the young, or that the sun should shine at night, when we need the light.

… So? They have that option, which is the point. The sam better be carrying a rocket launcher (we'll assume he invested in Heavy Weapons). I wonder how he concealed it.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 05:09 AM

Wow, lots of point coming in and it looks like there's no letting up. Unfortunately, Portal 2 just came out and I need a break. In the meantime I'm in the mana void of space, but I'll get back to you guys tomorrow.

Posted by: Glyph Apr 19 2011, 06:05 AM

Magical characters can potentially outshine mundanes, in theory, but in practice, they have a lot of demands on their build points, and after that, they are karma sinks.

The biggest problem that a lot of people have with mages, is that spells and spirits are both things that can be countered with magic much more easily than by mundane means. Spells are resisted with only one Attribute (plus possibly Edge), and spirits have hardened armor against mundane attacks.

The second biggest problem that people have with mages is the sheer versatility that they can have with the right selection of spells and spirits. They can fly, turn invisible, read minds, and on and on.

So awakened character can get out of hand, especially if you interpret the RAW liberally regarding which modifiers are added after the split for multicasting, or if you run into a mage with high Drain resistance who overcasts, or summons high Force spirits, regularly.

On the other hand, every character still has vulnerabilities - this is a game of the proverbial glass cannons. And mundane characters can be very powerful, too. As I said, mages tend to be spread more thin than mundanes. And finally, there are a multitude of options in the game that can be used to curb mages.

So awakened character don't have to outshine unawakened characters, although they can wind up doing so. But that's really dependent on the campaign. Magic can run wild, or be really gimped, depending on how the GM runs that game.

Posted by: ggodo Apr 19 2011, 06:15 AM

He's also talking about Lofwyr.
Just a little context for that.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 19 2011, 06:57 AM

Only if the GM fails to take into account factors that mitigate the power of Awakened characters.

Every facility needs three dimensions of security: physical, matrix, and astral. If you build your facilities without (or with minimal) matrix security, you should not be surprised when the Hacker (or Technomancer) negates the need for the party to even bother going inside. In the same way, if you don't bother to put up astral security (or only put up a token ward or two), a Mage is going to have a field day.

If you really want to, you can negate the need for Matrix security by going ultra low-tech. Computer networks? What are those? Can you eat them? In the same way, you can negate the need for Astral security by building your base in a mana ebb (or mana void). Remember - ain't no metamagic that helps against a negative background count. Both of these are great big 'screw you!'s to any Wired or Awakened characters, but it can be done.

As far as options that are available without having access to magic yourself, here's what I've got off the top of my head:

FEYWARE
Get it aspected to the Magic Resistance quality at max level, 200,000 nuyen and 40 karma gets you +4 dice on all magic resistance tests. This is, of course, a terrible solution that probably costs more than it's worth, but it does exist. There's also the Magic Resistance quality (available for 5 BP per +1 to your resistance checks).

HAVEN LILIES
You can go for Haven Lilies early on against Magicians (requires two initiation grades to be able to negate a positive background count), and you can ALWAYS use Haven Lilies against Adepts. "Hey Adepts, you know those power points that fuel your powers? Lose three of them. I choose which."

FAB III
Bad solution to magical problems is bad. And not nearly as effective as people think. It exists, though.

TUNGSTEN BULLETS
As it turns out, Tungsten bullets will chew through a materialized spirit's Hardened Armor right quick.

ASTRAL DANGERS
Deliberately build your base in an area which corresponds to an absolutely TERRIFYING region of astral space. Alternately, go for a mana ebb or a mana void. For extra lulz? The target of the run is a nuclear power plant. Watch the mage cry the first time he tries to approach the area for astral scouting. Problem, nuclear spirits?

Posted by: TheOOB Apr 19 2011, 08:16 AM

Ehh, it really depends.

I think to start "awakened characters" needs to be split, as adepts and magicians are so completely different.

Adepts are generally accepted, with notable exceptions, to be inferior to an augmented character at creation, and it takes quite awhile for them to outstrip said character. Adepts generally also specialize in one or two specific tasks, while augmented characters can branch out a bit more with less demands on their karma. While there is no glass ceiling for adepts, the delta ware glass ceiling for other characters is set awfully high.

Magicians are more complex. The first thing to remember is that any good magician devotes a lot to their craft. Magicians need to pour a lot of karma into their magical talent and typically have little karma to spend elsewhere, which means if they can't solve a problems with magic, they likely cannot solve the problem at all. Money doesn't help a great deal, because there isn't a lot of magical things that magicians can buy to help their spellcasting and conjuring(and those things require karma anyways), and the big money sinks for other players, 'ware, drones, and ext the mage either a)doesn't have the skills to use as well as someone else, or b)would hurt their essence and notably decrease their magical abilities.

Luckily, magicians are flexible, they can learn a spell for virtually any occasion(but once again, those cost karma, and you'll never have every spell you want/need), but spells almost always risk drain, and there is no shortage of counters for them, and quite frankly, many things spell can do tech does better(an assault rifle is much better than magic for killing things, chameleon suits are as good if not better than invisibility in many situations.)

Conjuration is harder to quantify, spirits are powerful and versatile, but also dangerous and limited. Summoning a spirit in a dangerous situation is always a risk(crap my air spirit just rolled a 5 on their summoning resistance!), and bound spirits don't have the flexibility that summoned spirits have, as binding a spirit takes time and money(and drain), and you can't change the optional powers after you bind them. Most tricks that counter spells counter spirits too, and if a player is abusing spirits, there are no shortage of ways for the GM to teach the player a lesson. Also a note, spirits are generally only useful in combat if you have them materialized before combat starts. Oftentimes I'll call a spirit from my stable only to have the fight over by the time he materialized.

So in short, mages are powerful, but they are a huge karma sink, can be countered, and don't get the wonderful toys that other archtypes have. So as long as the GM doesn't stiff the party on the nuyen(which a lot of GMs do), and they through the occasional magical obstacle greater than a ward or a patrolling spirit(once again, many GMs will use ingenious traps, trained guard, deadly IC and hackers, but won't put any good astral security), awakened characters shouldn't outshine the unawakened(unless they start initiating in thedouble digits, then you need to start a new campaign.)

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 19 2011, 08:21 AM

On the cybered Adept issue - I am not sure about this one. I don't like the idea of cybernetic adepts, but I don't want it outright banned. Looking at it from the perspective of someone who typically does not play unawakened characters (and if I do, they are technomancers), it seems to me that the decision to take cyberware as an Awakened character should be a matter of weighing a significant benefit against a significant drawback. Unfortunately, it appears to be the weighing of a significant benefit against a mild to moderate drawback. I am unsure how to correct this problem.

I can not really speak to the problem from the other side. Can you really do better not going down to 1 essence with cyberware and making up the difference with adept powers as a street samurai? That is, a cybered adept can often be better than a pure adept. Can an awakened street samurai also often be better than a pure street samurai?

Posted by: TheOOB Apr 19 2011, 08:34 AM

The karma cost to raise your magic without getting any return(because you'll lose it to 'ware) isn't a significant drawback to you? I agree that if the character is basically a street samurai who bough 1 or 2 PP worth of abilities you can't get from 'ware there is a problem, but that isn't allowed by the rules, which specifically notate that you, as a GM, shouldn't let people take the adept quality unless they are planning on actually being an adept. That said, the adept powers that just make you faster and stronger are overpriced compared to 'ware, and I don't fault a character dropping 1 or 2 points of magic to raise some of their stats via 'ware, or to get an internal 'link or some such, its only fair, and they are not only spending karma/BP on wasted magic now, but will have to spend more on magic in the future.

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 19 2011, 09:14 AM

They Do especially if the GM forgets to apply all Mods (like Cover or Background in a fight f.E. )
If all Rules would be used it would be very much more difficult for a Mage Char
Mages tend to become Specialists ( Spellcaster, Combat Mages,Summoner, Medical Healer)
and with enough Karma (I'm talking Hundreds of Karma) they are way more Impressive than Streetsams who have a tendency of becoming generalists with lots and lots of Low Level Skills
Thats a Tendency I see when talking to Gamers on conventions or reading in Forums(and even with my own Chars.My 120 Karma Hobbit Mage is a dedicated Combat Mage, my 160 Karma Ork Military started as Jungle Fighter but developed a few "side Skills" because they were necessary at that Time )

But that is not a Hard Fact and can easily be busted by Mythbusters

with a much more difficult Dance than before
Medicineman

Posted by: Irion Apr 19 2011, 09:25 AM

Only one fact by the way: The ratio Karma to Nuyen is one to 2500. So it would be 400 Karma.
And I bet a mage would be up to the task with 400 Nuyen easy.


This has actually nothing to do with how strong adepts are, it is all about the magic loss from cyberware, which can be countered.

A adept getting three Points of Cyber dropping his magic from 8 to 5 is not imbalanced. But an adept dropping his magic three times from 2 to 1 is.

@TheOOB

No, it is not. You have to look at the numbers.
If you get your essence down to one always dropping and raising your magic you end up paying 50 Karma. Thats a little hit, yes. But look at the stuff you are now able to get.
For 0.25 Power Points you can increase any skill (exept weapons) by one point.

The first power to get cost 10 Karma, the second 15 and so on.

@Medicineman

True for adepts. But the main advantage of a mage is, that he only has to pay 5 Karma to get a hole section.
Want to be a healer? Get the heal spell and use it with your magic and Spellcasting dicepool!
Want to be a heavy weapons guy? Get the Powerball, Fireball spell!
Want to be an infiltrator? There are many ways to go. (Spirit powers, shapechange etc.)

For most of this stuff mundanes need to get skills, equipment and preparation.
Some spells even are multible use. For example the analyse device spell.


Yes, the dicepool is rather small, compared to a Sam or a Hacker. But it is the one Attribute to rule them all.
A Sam won't roll 90% of his rolls on one Attribute. The Mage will.
In general you get your casting and summoning dice pool. Both are linked to magic.

Posted by: Blade Apr 19 2011, 09:31 AM

Of course, awakened characters have access to everything mundane character have plus magic. So outside of technomancy and special cases such as cybermancy, a mage with infinite karma and nuyens will have as much as an unawakened character and his magic on top of that.

The thing is that long before having infinite karma, both the awakened and the mundane character will be too powerful to be playable. And before that, both the mundane and the awakened will (if created by players with the same min-maxing skills) be balanced enough that their efficiency will have more to do with the player's way to play the character and the GM own bias than with the character itself.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Apr 19 2011, 10:01 AM

In theory, a mystic adept with infinite karma is better at everything that anyone else. So yay.

In practice, it's not nearly as bad as that, I think. For example, Edge; after a while, all the players figured out that Edge is important, so everyone had high Edge, except the mage; he couldn't afford both high Edge and strong magic use at chargen. Then there's the Facing; the mage was a Charisma-Tradition Elf, but still couldn't keep up with the Pure Elf Face with bells whistles and pheromones. In practice, mages don't have more points to spend than other characters, and the costs for powers aren't so totally unbalanced.

Who shines in a campaign has a lot to do with who made the right character for that campaign. A brutally efficient killer-sam doesn't shine much if most of the adventure is about legwork, hacking and negotiation. On the other hand, the face gets depressed if the GM isn't big on the whole social thing and just wants brutal fights.

The trick to not getting outshone is being good enough at something important. If the mage is good at combat, find a different thing in combat to do; the mage might be good at dealing with lots of weaker goons, you become good at taking down the big boss. Or vice versa. Or you specialize in drones, spirits, concealed/hard to find opponents and so forth. You can be totally deadly in combat without any magic. Guns don't have Drain, and a decent DV. Means that the Sam can be the long-haul fighter.

Infiltration is also doable; mages do great against places with no astral security (duh), but against more secure places your Agility 9, Infiltration 5, Miscellaneous Bonus 5 is going to be the best way of doing stuff. Mages have a hard time gathering enough points to beat that. And your Agility 9 means that if you run into trouble, you'll be able to handle it.

Hacking - well, mages aren't too particularly awesome at that. The points they spent on magic give only very limited help here, so a dedicated hacker has a good time being better. Let's not even mention technomancers.

Rigging - see hacking. Specialists do it better. Drones don't notice recoil much. Drones are hard to see from the Astral, and give you lots of ways to dominate the situation if your tactics are good.

Face - depending on your GM's style, who you know is perhaps more important that what mind control spells you know. The more important and powerful someone is, the better they'll be protected against coercion (magical, augmentation), so actually being able to be nice starts to matter.

---

Before, it was pointed out that mages can be really good at enhancing other characters to do their job better. I think that buffing, astral scouting and Dealing With Enemy Magic are perhaps the most important things mages do; everything else is more economical to leave to other characters.

The really frightening powergamer isn't out to make the most powerful individual character, he's out to set up the most optimal team.

Posted by: PoliteMan Apr 19 2011, 10:41 AM

Good catch, my bad. Still, I'd take that challenege, at 200 Karma/500,000 nueyn or 400 Karma/1,000,000 nuyen, say about a year of gametime.


Not quite. Regardless of the rules, cool trick BTW, there's a bunch of archetypes like Face, Hacker, and Rigger who do not require tons of cyberware to do their jobs, most clocking in at about 2 Essence loss. I'm pretty sure all of them would benefit from Adept powers. Yes, Sams can't take advantage as easily but it's easy to see how one of these Essence light archetypes could greatly benefit from Adept or Mage powers, even at reduced magic, especially when magic synergizes well with their abilities, like a Face who boosts his social rolls with Magic or a Rigger that has spirits inhabit his drones.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 19 2011, 10:50 AM

Guardian spirit has Agility of Force+2 and any combat skill at rating equal to Force.
And you summon and get services out of them with same dicepool you summon all the other spirits

Posted by: Irion Apr 19 2011, 12:23 PM

@PoliteMan

Well to have an example I would take the 400/1.000.000 one. What are the other conditions? Just a mage with 400BP 400 Karma and 1.000.000 nuyen?
How would you like to compare the two characters.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 01:10 PM

I don't know about that Yerameyahu. ALL mundanes have access to Magic Resistance as a Quality. Saying that they have no recourse is a bit disingenuous. And there are a LOT of reasons that you could use to rationalize picking up the Magic Resistance Quality.

As for the rest. It is correct, and a Competent mage will take those routes more often than not. But it will take away from their magical ability each and every time that they spend karma on something not directly related to their Magic Ability (Though it has the benefit of making them a bit more versatile non-magically).

As for the OP Question, though. I think that MAges are WAY MORE Versatile. IF they pursue that course. I cannot tell yo haw many mages I have seen who are a collection of "BLOW UP SHIT" spells, and not much else. In that case, they are an inferior Street Sams. When that mage has an array of non-combat spells, however, he becomes something that is difficult to deal with because of the many options that he has at his disposal.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 01:12 PM

Note, however, that this takes time. In an immediate situation, the mage has to deal with the consequences of the BGC.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 01:35 PM

Well, traditionally, yes, you need a spotter to cast ritual magic (PAge 184-185). UNLESS you have a Direct or Symbolic Link to the target (Street Magic p28-29). Blood, Hair, the wrapper form that soydog you ate this afternoon, and a voodoo doll are all examples of a link.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 02:07 PM

Tymeaus, I'm not the one who specified 'really high karma' for comparison. It throws the whole question for a loop to just assume a few hundred karma, but that's what the OP wanted.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 19 2011, 02:37 PM

In previous editions awakened characters could easily outshine unawakened ones after a while. It didn't take them anything to start with a 6 in Magic. The only limit to the size of the Power Focus you could build yourself was time and the GM. Initiating automatically increased your Magic. None of that is true anymore. It is true that high karma magical characters are powerful, but they're not overpowered IMO.

To use the "few hundred" karma as a guideline: that's a healthy boost to a magician's magic, plus several high force foci. The unawakened character can spend that on skill groups and singular skills, ending up with Rating 3 in every single skill he's ever likely to use. Depending on which skills are likely to show up in the campaign, he can sprinkle specializations into all of them. Or he can buy new positive qualities and remove his negatives. Or he can shore up those weak stats he's got, while the mage is still limping along with 1s and 2s in some stuff.

If the campaign is going to go much over ~250 though, the GM might want to institute a cash for karma rule since the unawakened characters will eventually run out of things they want to spend karma on.

If we're talking a one-on-one fight, that's impossible to adjudicate. It all comes down to the circumstances of the fight, which in a debate either side can cherry pick so that their team wins.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2011, 02:40 PM

This is Shadowrun, if you're having a One-On-One fight, you're doing it wrong.

Bring friends. Make sure they bring their rifles. And drones. And spirits. And sprites. And that annoying AI that lives in the Pixie's CommLink.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 19 2011, 02:40 PM

I know that most people when they play mages go for the "Pure" route... I am of the firm belief that is stupid. The http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34752 has two points of 'Ware. Why, you may ask. The reason I put the 'Ware on him is that he has to keep up and normal humans (and unaugmented mages) are squishies waiting to get cacked. I put on a Synaptic Booster on him because I didn't want to go last all the time. The rest... fluff. The metagaming reason is the fact that it is much better to take the hit in Magic in the beginning than to take the hit later on.

I also don't have to worry about background count shutting down my magic. If I need dakka I got a slivergun for lots of dakka, and a grenade pistol for big boom dakka. I have enough skill and 'Ware that I'm not crippled when I hit a high BC area. Am I outgunning the Sammy... no way in hell! Does the Sammy have to carry my sorry hoop all over the place... not as much as a Squishy an unaugmented mage.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 04:14 PM

Oh, I know...



I don't know. My Cyberlogician is sitting at 318 karma, and I have MANY skills (Skill Levels) I still want to purchase, as most of them are 3 or lower. That with 81 Skills already on the sheet...

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 19 2011, 04:17 PM

People keep mentioning that Mages can use metamagic to ignore Background Count. Once again, this is only half true. Mages can use metamagic to ignore a Positive Background Count. Nothing and No One can ignore a Negative Background Count.

Posted by: Cheops Apr 19 2011, 04:51 PM

Most urban background counts are going to be positive. So not too big a deal there.

1 v 1: Mage takes Extended Detect Enemy spell and a sustaining focus 5. That gives him a range of 250 meters assuming Magic 5, Force 5. That's 2 city blocks away. Street Sam doesn't have enough time to perceive everything between him and the mage before the mage can Invisibility and walk into a cafe. Mage stands next to the ficus plant and waits for the street sam to pass. Casts Control Actions to get the street sam to start randomly firing into pedestrians. Cleanses the cafe to get rid of his astral signature. Sits back and sips his latte while the Star comes to slaughter the street sam.

Requires Magic 5, 3 spells, sustaining focus 5, 1 initiation with cleansing metamagic. Easily doable.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 19 2011, 04:55 PM

Eh, you can clean out your own spells without cleansing (It just makes it faster). You just need a few more rounds time *g*.

Also you can overcast. No need to get as high as 5 magic for this (except the dude has MASSIVE willpower and such)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 04:56 PM

And you do not even need Cleansing to accomplish that. Just a few complex actions to remove the signatures. So no need for an Initiation.

EDIT: Damn... Ninja'd by Summerstorm

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 06:00 PM

I'm back for a bit.

I'm glad he assumes a sammie doesn't have ultrasound vision (which is not based on any electromagnetic spectrum). Easy kill when a mage walks in front of you and makes funny faces assuming he's invincible/invisible.
Also, you probably want improved invisibility so I can't see you with other light based visions through my (technological) goggles.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 06:03 PM

Yeah, kind of an artificial situation, but then it's not really awakened _ vs unawakened sammy.

Posted by: PoliteMan Apr 19 2011, 06:13 PM

Ok, I'll agree to 400 Karma/1,000,000 Nuyen. I'll post a mundane Hacker (give me some time), although I'd like to see some other people post builds for a Rigger, Face (Pornomancer), or whatever else they think stands up. For the record, I do consider that the "Power Four": Face, Hacker, Mage, and Rigger, in that order.

Also, how broken are we going for here. Are we out to shatter the system? Personally, I'd prefer a gentlemen's agreement where we both make reasonable characters instead of optimized munchkins, but I'm willing to go broke.

I think just showing the characters would be enough, since I'm only trying to prove that mundanes can compete with mages at that level but, depending on the level of optimization, I'd be willing to consider the following challenges:
#1 First one to conquer the world
#2 First one to destroy the world (ok, physical destruction is actually very difficult, lets settle for the extermination of, say, 90% of all life on Earth)
#3 First one to get 1 trillion Nuyen
#4 Battle to the death, one character starts in Hong Kong, the other in Seattle, and all they get is the other's name
#5 First one to learn what Llowfyr had for breakfast on April 1st
#6 First one to win the UCAS presidency
#7 First one to kill Clockwork and deliver his head to Netcat
#8 First one to capture a powerful toxic shaman and deliver him alive
#9 A game of chess
#10 First one to steal Damien Knight's dirty underwear.

Posted by: Cheops Apr 19 2011, 06:13 PM

You still need to notice me from 2 blocks away out of the massive amount of moving targets. We may not have even established LOS when my spell spots you (we could be on different streets). I am spotting you from 250 meters away and ambushing you without any chance of you even knowing I am there.

Throw in Shapechange instead of the Invisibility and now your fancy ultrasound thinks I am a pigeon hanging out with my pigeon buddies. Not as cool because I have to peck at seeds instead of sipping my coffee but technically even more difficult to spot.

Posted by: Irion Apr 19 2011, 06:37 PM

How are you going to compare a hacker to a mage?

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 06:52 PM

What book is this from?


Are these similar to the astrally active ivy from RC?

and TUNGSTEN BULLETS.
aren't these AP bullets?

Posted by: eyeBliss Apr 19 2011, 06:55 PM

If the street sammie is completely unaware of your presence, how can he have hostile intentions towards you? I don't think it is enough for the sammie to have an interest in the mages death or even for the mage to be the specific target of a contract. Rather, he has to be in the act of planning or executing a hostile action, which requires at least a general awareness of the mages presence. I think it is important to maintain fairly narrow definitions for all of the detection spells lest they become overpowered and overly generalized in effect. Moreover, I'm of the opinion that magical senses should have all of the same confounding factors (noise/signal ratio, modality not optimized for every situation, lack of discernable specificity, etc.) that real senses have. You're still using your meat brain to process the information even if magic is providing you with extra sensory abilities.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 19 2011, 07:18 PM

Attitude.

Posted by: Bushw4cker Apr 19 2011, 07:23 PM

Haven Lilies and Tungsten Bullets, where did you find those?

Posted by: Bushw4cker Apr 19 2011, 07:24 PM

Feywear is from Attitude

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 07:36 PM

I don't think these special cases really detract from the overall picture, though. The vast majority of runs are not nuclear power plants. The vast majority of people (even of shadowrunners, gangers, and corpsec) do not have Astral Hazing, or even Magic Resistance, or high Willpower/Edge. It's the same as saying you can control the super-hacker by making all the nodes in the game unrealistically tough, or you can control Binky by giving everyone Thunderstrucks.

The difference is that awakened characters tend to require a lot less optimization, I think. At the 'a few hundred karma' range, any early weaknesses have been smoothed out, the few missing spells have been learned, etc. This includes whatever version of invisibility you need (that horrible-yet-legal 'Fade' idea), attack spells for people and objects, anything you want.

The mundanes can only spend their karma on Attribs (hard maximum there), or skills (hard maximum there too). Tymeaus pointed out that they can diversify, which is true, but that's not getting stronger in the original areas, and spells/spirits/powers let the awakened be incredibly flexible already.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 07:52 PM

Apparently, I really need to pick up "Attitude"

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 19 2011, 07:55 PM

The topic said nothing about specialization, just "outshining." If you're saying that the only way to shine is to get the most dice then yeah, mages are eventually going to outstrip the competition because they have no Magic cap. But that seems like a myopic and boring view of the game to me.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 08:01 PM

Well, your face is a myopic and boring view! Seriously though, my point is just that the mage (who is already flexible and getting more so), is *also* improving; the mundane is only broadening, because they have hard caps. I don't think this is a controversial point, and I specifically did *not* say 'mages specialize, mundanes generalize'.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 19 2011, 08:25 PM

Haven Lilies are in Street Magic (I think they're referenced in Arsenal as well). They're awakened flowers. If you have enough of them at a location, they increase the background count. Max increase is +3.

Tungsten rounds I believe are from War!
Checking...

OK, my mistake. Meant to say Anti-Tank Rounds. Only usable in large-bore weapons (sniper-rifles, assault cannons, HMGs). AP-6.

Alternately, you could bring out the AT rockets (22P, AP-10 on direct hit, no AP otherwise). And if the magician is going for spirits with a force above, say, seven on a regular basis, it IS time to respond exactly as if he were sending out hordes of armored vehicles.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 08:25 PM

I guess I should say that there is kind of a limit to this improving. Once you can buy an Aesir satellite, there's no longer any point to becoming stronger. RAW is: freya or thor kills on hit. Period. Thus we could say that is that hard cap on character improvement.
As for PoliteMan's suggestion: cheater!
#1 First one to conquer the world -> face
#2 First one to destroy the world -> face
#9 A game of chess -> Deep Blue
Once you get beyond the scope of what a single player can do (large scale plans like taking over the world), charisma becomes the ultimate weapon.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 08:34 PM

I need a break, so just a moment of non-seriousness:

Mana voids/ebbs cannot be negated by any magical ability, so the proper technique to defeat a mage would be to acquire two unbelievably rambunctious characters with a great deal of aura/essence (such as Pinky Pie from MLP). You then bring these characters near each other. The incredible mana flows generated will rebound and create a mana void between them. You can also funnel the auras of these characters through slits to generate targeted wave interference. The only question is whether mana flows as a particle or a wave.

Also, I didn't get to ask this earlier, but what is FAB? Full auto burst?

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 08:59 PM

This is an awesome idea. At creation, cyber yourself to kingdom come, leaving negligible essence. I don't really like cybering, but with that, you should be undetectable by assensing. Additionally, Shadowrun assumes the existence of the soul, so you could keep your heart instead of your brain (keep a logic processor or something instead) and be immune to mind control.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 09:20 PM

It doesn't really work that way in SR4, not for characters (i.e., non-cyborgs, non-cyberzombies, because those aren't PCs).

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 09:23 PM

I just looked up Attitude. Bone black makeup reacts to astral presence by changing color. If I pack some of that into a grenade, shapechange won't help much.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 09:28 PM

… so your grenade will change color when there's any astral presence? Not that there *is* any astral presence with Shapechange.

I'll admit, I haven't read any of the new stuff in Attitude. I assumed it was all worthless style crap. Sounds like they snuck some manatech in there, but doesn't sound very effective.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 09:32 PM

Nope... Only Cyborgs benefit from that. You can have a Street Samurai with an Essence of 0.00000000000000001 (which is lower than the Cyborg's essence), and you are still susceptible to Mind Control magics, and can be detected by Assensing. Sorry...

In a similar Vein, my CyberLogician has less essence than a Cyborg does, though he is working on regaining some of that essence hole he recently created... Sucks to have such a low essence...

Posted by: ggodo Apr 19 2011, 10:02 PM

I'm not actually sure if they have full on brain replacement in Shadowrun. You could turn yourself into a drone, or play an AI, but I'm not sure how you're going to maintain your 'selfness' with the brain swap. Most of the headware stuff is designed to work with the brain, not instead of it. I think you need to keep your brain, because that seems to be where SR assumes the 'soul' to be.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 10:07 PM

Forget the soul, that's where the mind is. If you play a meatbag on life-support, that's not a character. At best, it's a vessel, or biodrone 'chassis' (no Pilot). If that meatbag is controlled by a computer (or anything else), *that's* the character.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2011, 10:16 PM

Don't let Peg catch you saying that...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 10:18 PM

I don't know what that means. But I don't think the idea that a headless body isn't a character is a controversial one.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 19 2011, 10:21 PM

As far as I can tell, Essence basically is the soul. Which is incredibly depressing, because Essence can be depleted by any number of things, from getting cybernetic implants to suffering traumatic injury to getting Essence drained. This seems implies that SR take on the matter is that yes, the soul exists, but it's not immortal by any means, and it probably dies with the body. Ghosts? Those are spirits which are either deluded or malicious, but they're certainly not deceased human beings.

Is that interpretation entirely correct?
Maybe. Maybe not.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 10:24 PM

I'm pretty fine with ghosts being deluded and 'souls' being a mere astral (and killable) extension of the body.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 10:27 PM

Essence is NOT the Soul, it is merely the thing that lets you KEEP your Soul in your body.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2011, 10:33 PM

Peg is/was a Decker that was a paraplegic, she worked with Argent, the Shadowrunner's Shadowrunner.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 10:38 PM

Ah. I never read the fluff. But that sounds like someone still in possession of their brain, which is *not* a meatbag on life-support.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2011, 10:55 PM

Indeed Not. Peg is one hell of a Hacker.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 11:30 PM

I didn't see any rules concerning creating cyberzombies or cyborgs. Aren't they ideas for creation so that player characters/GMs can create them?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 19 2011, 11:32 PM

They're for NPCs. In any case, it's not a very special case: you're protected from LOS inside a vehicle anyway.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 11:33 PM

How do you regain essence? Tell fish stories with excessive embellishment until no one can deny that you're quite the character?

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 19 2011, 11:38 PM

"More for ritualistic types, bone black has come back in
cosmetics and tattooing. Made by burning and crushing animal
bones into  ne powers, this material has been mixed with other
materials such as Awakened butter y wings or ground with dualnatured
plants that react with astral objects so that it gives o a
variety of colors.  ere’s some experimentation in getting the bone
black makeup to shi colors depending on local mana  uctuations
or the presence of astral beings.  e Triad use bone black for spell
anchoring tattoos and as a material link to their brethren."

Awakened characters are dual natured, so I read that as: the makeup will glow or change color (how about to orange) if it gets close to an awakened character.
Moreover, if I wrap a grenade or other explosive in this, I can coat an entire area. In that case, if I see an orange spot, I know where the spellcaster is.

Posted by: Sephiroth Apr 20 2011, 12:05 AM

False.

Only astrally perceiving characters and critters (including the Infected) with the Dual Natured power are dual natured.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 12:06 AM

Dang. Well, I originally intended this to be a balancing factor against astrally perceiving characters, so either way.

Posted by: Doc Byte Apr 20 2011, 12:08 AM

I'm playing a mage with essence 2. He's started out as a nearly burned-out mage concept 8 years ago. (2 points of ware and AFAIR about 3 points of bioware under SR3 with one geasa.) Meanwhile he's got magic 5 but I still tend to forget that he's a mage. I've allways played him as a Streetsam who can do some magic. He prefers his Mac X over combat spell for most of the time, casting a manabolt with 12D but using the MP with 13D. In spite of being a mage he prefers the mudan solution in many cases. Why bother with a headache, if a gun will do the job equally well?

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 12:13 AM

Won't 12 dice only get you an average of 4 hits? Why cast at all?

Posted by: Doc Byte Apr 20 2011, 01:01 AM

Hits are capped at 5 (magic) anyway. And there are more useful spells than combat spells, no question.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 01:08 AM

Ah, good point. I'm getting so caught up in the combat capabilities of magic that I forget about the utility.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 20 2011, 01:35 AM

You're gonna shoot a manatech grenade at every pigeon in the city?
Your loan shark will possibly kill you before the mage does.




There's rules for them in Augmentation, including prices and availability of the needed 'ware. Drone bodies for cyborgs are in Arsenal.
Nothing (except a player's unwillingness to roleplay a cybernetically induced identity crisis and prohibitive costs) excludes PCs from becomming cyberzombies or cyborgs.

I never understood why some GMs are fine with mages running arond with a Magic attribute of 12, but would violently object to a cyberzombie PC.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 01:43 AM

There is a Gene Treatment that will restore lost essence. It is expensive and takes a long time (0.1 Essence Regained per Month, and 20,000 Nuyen/Month after the first month, which costs 70,000 Nuyen).

You really must read Augmentation (along with Arsenal, Unwired and Street Magic). Doing so would answer so many of your questions.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 01:50 AM

I have read augmentation, but not front to back. I generally skip sections, but I now remember that I glanced at that passage.
Here are the books I've spent some time with, from most read to least read:

1. SR 4A pre errata
2. Runners Companion
3. Augmentation
4. Arsenal
5. SR 4A post errata
6. War!
7. Street magic
8. Attitude

I hadn't even glanced at those last two until yesterday (or today, for attitude).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 01:58 AM

It really shows.

Posted by: ggodo Apr 20 2011, 02:09 AM

The only thing I can think of is that the mage can hide his talents better, while the cyberzombie is pretty much a walking haze of ick.

Posted by: PoliteMan Apr 20 2011, 03:18 AM

How do you want to?

I don't want to turn this into Hacker v Mage, more as a proof of concept, so let me me briefly back up and explain how I think each archetype can stand up to the mage.

Hackers: In a wireless world, hackers can manipulate basically any technology. Agents, replicating Worms, and botnets all allow the hacker to manipulate massive amounts of technology (limited basically by the GM and GOD at a certain point). Those require time and resources but with a year and a million nuyen the amount of manipulation you can do is immense. Their abilities are further boosted by the fact that agents and worms can use the same programs, like Exploit, that the hacker uses for himself, specially when you consider that something like rating 10 Stealth is easily achievable at this level. So if you want every car in the city to turn left on Monday at 3:01 and you have replicating worms with Stealth 10, you can.

Riggers have the same basic advantage as hackers, except they only manipulate drones and usually only the drones they own. However, at that level, a rigger can basically have aerial drones patrolling the whole city and an armored company of vehicles and drones rolling down the street. Additionally, they can easily have multiple drones specialized for every situation.

Faces will have tons of contacts and the persuasiveness to get them to do almost anything. I'm not sure whether you allow Faces to get new contacts through karma, roleplaying, money, or some combination of the three but at this level a face should have a booklet of contacts, many in very influential positions. In a very real sense they can do anything because they're best friends with the best hacker, the best mage, the best sam, the best whatever is needed and if they don't know they guy you need, they know a guy who knows that guy.

In a sense, all these mundane archetypes use the same strategy. They can't match a Mage, or a Sam or Adept to an extent, in the pure amount of power in one person. They make up for it by controlling lots of less powerful things to match or exceed the abilities of a mage. Quantity, after all, has a quality all of it's own.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 03:29 AM

But, none of those is incompatible with being a mage (especially the Face). Hacker and rigger are pretty non-optimal (especially when you can do spirits instead of drones), but a mage with trodes and some expensive programs is just about as good. Skill is the only difference, and it's only a handful of skills. (And, as above, we're using 'mage' to mean 'awakened characters'; no reason hacker adepts and rigger adepts aren't better than mundanes.)

I'm not saying the mage (even with 'crazy high karma') has enough to do all of these. But he can easily do any of them at least as well, plus all the unique mage tricks.

Posted by: PoliteMan Apr 20 2011, 03:53 AM

Totally agree Y

Yes, I totally agree, the ability of awakened characters to use everything a mundane can, even if they pay a significant price, gives any awakened character a significant advantage. A mage can buy a couple drones and play mini-rigger but the reverse is not true. Also, while playing a mundane rigger is nice, an Awakened rigger will probably be better, especially after a couple adventures.

I feel like there's two discussions here and I have two seemingly contradictory opinions.

#1 Do mages outshine everyone else?
No, mages are powerhouses but they're not the only ones.

#2 Do the Awakened in general outshine mundanes?
Yep. It's hard to think of something that magic wouldn't somehow improve.

in other words,
It's not the mages, it's the adepts/mysads!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 03:58 AM

It's just such a pain to type 'Awakened characters' every time. I agree, it's already been the mysads. Projection is a great trick, but still.

Posted by: Fortinbras Apr 20 2011, 04:18 AM

By that logic, a hacker can just accumulate 30 Karma and buy the Magician Quality. Now he can easily do all the things a mage can do, plus all the unique hacker tricks. You could say "But now he's a mage," but I maintain that if a mage gets enough tech to be a at least as good as a hacker, then he becomes a Hacker.
The idea that a mage can do everything anyone else does is presupposing that the mage part of him trumps the others. If he has enough tech to be as good a hacker as a normal hacker build, then whose to say he isn't a hacker with magic, as opposed to a mage with a whiz commlink.

If mages or any Awakened are taking over your group, you need to start GMing with the mage in mind. Most runs don't use nearly enough magical resistance compared to Matrix or Street Sam countermeasures, which is where everyone go this idea that playing a mage is the "I Win" button of Shadowrun.
I think this idea came from either number crunching without playtesting, or lazy GMs who don't know how to use BC and Spirits of Man.

In any event, if your first session of character generation involves telling your players "Anyone who plays something other than a mage is an idiot." then you are doing it wrong!

Posted by: Seerow Apr 20 2011, 04:46 AM

Re: The Feywear, what exactly is the point of it?

It lets you get a positive quality put into your clothes, but you have to pay a ton of money AND karma for it... where (unless this was also erratad out in a newer version of the book) you can just gain new positive qualities by paying that same amount of karma. Yes, the book says the GM should award the qualities where they make sense blah blah, but Attitude also says that the GM should consider the impact that feyweave will have on his game before allowing a character to get it, so you're having to go through the GM in either scenario to get the quality... it's just with this you have to be wearing specific clothes and pay a bunch of money on top of it.




As to the actual topic: The biggest complaint I have with magical characters is that they do have so much that can't be replicated. As a couple other people have said, there is no concept in the game that couldn't be made better with a splash of magic added to the character for that little extra edge. How much magic you want will vary from character to character, but having magic is always going to be strictly better than not having magic. It also doesn't help that you can't pick up magic post character gen, so if you think there's any chance your character will want some form of magic to complement his skillset somewhere down the line, you want to have at the very least one of the awakened qualities, and just enough magic to not be burnt out with whatever wares you want.

Some things being exclusively magic is okay. Indeed, it's even expected. After all, what kind of mundane effect could turn someone to goo? Or take over someone's mind? But on the other hand, if that's the way it is, you should have more things that are unique to mundanes, and possibly limit the stacking between similar mundane/magical things. After all, why be a Mundane face and just have Tailored Pheromones, when I could be a Mystic Adept Face, who has Tailored Pheromones, Kinescis, Imp Social Skill, Commanding Voice, Cool Resolve, and the ability to cast Increase Attribute (Charisma)? Yes, you probably won't be able to do all of that at character creation, but you could do most of it, and could have all of it within 50-100 karma.

I mean, even a hacker/rigger benefits from dipping into being an adept. You get a couple of cool initiation powers that can help out, and imp tech/vehicle skills to bump your skills above the natural maximums.


Mages themselves are a different story. They're far less dippable, so they don't scream "take this to help out any possible build ever!", but they are still very strong in their own right. While they can be used for complementing other roles (again, the Increase Attribute spell is amazing and is the only way to boost several stats outside of drugs, and there's several spells that support stealthing, gunslinging, etc), Mage's really stick out moreso in what they can do on their own. Their counterspelling is pretty much the only thing that will keep their team as a whole standing when facing other mages, since direct spells have no mundane way to protect against except for very expensive qualities. They can basically spam stunbolt/stunball/manabolt without much fear of drain at all. They can maintain 4 initiative passes with a single spell (can use a force 4 sustaining focus which is relatively cheap to keep it up cheaply). They can turn people to goo, stone, or animals, their pick. They can turn themselves into a critter and wade into melee (not that this really has any benefit in shadowrun, but it is possible, and is an easy way for mages to overcome their typical physical weakness). They can turn invisible and fly. About the only thing a mage can't do is teleport/time travel. The majority of the things listed are things that mages are typically capable of doing competently starting at character generation.

Drain, the mage's intended limiting factor, is pretty easily negated. Between Increase Attribute, and Centering (most mages' first metamagic), and a Centering Focus, it's not really out of the question for a mage to be able to just shrug off drain values as high as 6-8 even at relatively low karma levels. Even a starting mid-op mage should be able to shrug off 4, which covers most force 5-7 spells. With higher karma levels (ie the 400ish karma discussed in this topic) 40 or so drain resist dice isn't out of the question.

And this doesn't even touch on spirits, astral perception, or astral projection, all of which are pretty closely hoarded by the mages, and made prohibitively costly for other characters to touch. (Seriously, a full power point for astral perception? That's ridiculous). These are things that for the most part nobody else has an equivalent to, and Mages give up next to nothing for access to it.


Anyway, at this point I'm more or less rambling, so I'm going to shut up and go to sleep now.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 05:06 AM

How do you want to get 40 dices for resisting drain. A character would need to be optimized to get there

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 05:06 AM

How do you want to get 40 dices for resisting drain. A character would need to be optimized to get there

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 20 2011, 05:15 AM

Try the Astral Adept (its an Idea from Dumpshock)

with an Astral Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Udoshi Apr 20 2011, 05:16 AM

Off the top of my head?

Assuming hermetic(Will+Log)
Cerebral boosters
Dareadrenaline ( i think. Whichever is)
activated pain editors
Any drug that adds to either WP or Log.
Trauma damper reduces stun drain by 1, after the soak.
Centering metamagic
Some more from the semi-expensive quality that adds to drain resistance.
I think there's a spirit pact that helps here, but I don't recall the exact name.
Bear Mentor MIGHT help, depending on whether your GM lets the +2 physical resist work when Overcasting(which is physical. in this case, also platelet factories).
Random optimizing with attribute mins and maxes with metatypes(mostly dwarf), HMHVV(some give bonuses to mental stats), and SURGE(particularly metagenetic improvement), and the genetic optimization geneware.

I'm not sure 40 is feasable, but you can hella stack stuff that helps with drain.

Did i miss anything?

Posted by: Seerow Apr 20 2011, 05:38 AM

We're talking about a 400 karma character to get to the 40 dice pool. I was thinking something like a grade 10 initiate (which is 163 of the 400 karma), with a say moderate force 6 Centering Focus (36 more karma), and a quickened Imp Attribute Logic/Willpower (force 5, getting both stats to the 9 maximum) is up to 206 karma spent, and has 34 dice to throw at drain resist already. Bumping that focus up to Force 12 (we can have up to force 30 in foci bound, more if magic gets raised above 6 at all) it gets the 40 I specified, but that's investing pretty heavily. Udoshi listed plenty of other ways to resist drain further without needing such a high force foci, but most don't actually add to the dice pool, but rather just lets you shrug off drain.

The quickening is pretty rough if your GM is prone to dispelling. If that's the case you can instead opt towards sustaining foci (again counting towards that max force though), or quickening it at a much higher force. For example overcast to force 10 and put in the doubled karma, and roll 26+ (the + being any extra magic or power focii) dice on any counterspelling test, and make the person attempting to dispell it most likely have to eat physical drain with most likely far fewer dice to resist than you. (actually at force 10 it's still only 3 drain, so bump that overcasting on up to say force 16, making the drain 6P, something you can shrug off easily, but anyone looking to dispell you will likely need to worry about. And after eating a few points of physical drain without getting any net successes towards dispelling, most people will just give up and try another tactic)

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 05:39 AM

Adrenaline pump, which also allows you to ignore stun. No addiction, so not a drug.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 20 2011, 05:41 AM

Eugh... all good and fine. But just loading up with a huge centering focus (if you have the karma for it) would be enough, i guess. No need to make it too complicated.

Posted by: Seerow Apr 20 2011, 05:42 AM

Um... yeah, but the part of my post you quoted there was talking about what Mages can do that other people can't. An adrenaline pump doesn't give you extra Will/Charisma/Intuition, which are all exclusively raised either by drugs or the spell.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 05:46 AM

Can someone come up with a MysAd optimised for damage using sniper rifles on 400 BP? You should leech every point of dice pool or DV you can out of the rules, including edge. Don't bother spending on any defense, and show how many BP you used. If I can't think of a competing mundane sniper build, It'll at least give me something to think about.

Posted by: Seerow Apr 20 2011, 06:29 AM

Take whatever you'd give to the mundane sniper, then add on 3 extra dice from Imp Combat Skill, then add on Hawkeye (no range modifiers and no need to take a aim action).

It's really pretty much that simple. Your mundane sniper will have at most 7 ranks, and will constantly be taking range modifiers, or re-aiming every time his target moves. The mystic adept sniper gets 10 ranks, for 3 extra dice, and no need to waste that extra action. (This is also potentially even more important if your modifiers are enough to risk hitting cap, if that optional rule is used, though I don't see how you could manage that. dicepool cap for mundane is (9+7 )*2 = 32 for the mundane and (9+10)*2 = 38 for the adept)


There are of course other benefits (invisibility, detection spells, imp physical skill, etc), but you said to only list straight up offensive benefits for sniping and not worry about defensive benefits at all.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 06:52 AM

I'm a fan of the hawkeye quality, so let me fix that for you:
it reduces the range increment by one step, and gives you a bonus die for perception tests over a distance.


So you took hawk eye and mysAd for 5+10 BP, then I assume you added exceptional attribute for 20 BP, capping you out at 35.
The mundane took exceptional attribute for 20 BP, and hawkeye for 5, then added 2X restricted gear to start with rating 4 muscle toner and the barett. that's 1 less die than you, but 2 more DV. since DV counts for approximately 3X what dice count for if you are already nearly guaranteed to hit, that's undoubtedly better than the MysAd.
The hook is that you're investing in skills that don't always give optimal returns. I'm banking on the idea that the points you invest in magic and qualities at creation will set you back more than they aid you.
Can somebody please give this a serious try?
http://www.chud.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/skub.gif

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 08:27 AM

@longbowrocks

All stuff you are able to pick up on the second or third run.
Why should I pay precious BP for stuff I get later on anyway. Stuff like a Synaptic Booster 2 is something to think about.
But for muscle toner? Why not just get level two, second hand an pick the level 4 thing as alpha Ware later on.

Nobody is agruing, that ware from the start is better than magic. But this changes over time. Magic is raised, ware is replaced.
If you start with a level two, second hand muscletoner replacing it with a level 4 muscle toner alpha costs the same as replacing a level 4 muscle toner.
So after a few runs, all you achieved was wasting BP on restricted gear. Same goes for the barret. (

So yes, you are better for maybe 4 runs (maybe 5). After that the adept is closing in and later on leaving you behind.
He will have an higher peception pool, he will have an higher Pool for shooting and so on. You might be able to get some additional skills. (Not if you really try to keep up and raise Perception and Rifle to 7)

It gets even worse if you play with initiations giving power points.
The adept will probably start with around 3 points of essence loss. (If we are looking at, lets say, 1.8 Points of bioware, he can easy but another point of Cyber in, without question. Keeping him medium cybered making it possible to get around cyberware scanners, since bioware is hard to detect and the cyberare needed is legal (cybereyes etc.)
The question pending is, if he has raised is magic to 5 or only to 4. Depending on the question if he could invest the BP for better deals.
So yes, he will be down 45 BP front up. (Not so much if he is using second hand ware and keeping the prices down)
For this he only gets +1 to the rifle skill. (which would cost aour sam 14BP or later on 7*2+20=32 Karma)
Well, there are also 0.5 Powerpoints left. So if we go for improved perception and improved sence (smell possibly) you would neede a cyber nose to get after that and the skill would cost you another (considering the skill is 4) 10 Karma or 4 BP.
But since Karma will be awarded the adept will get another power point for 10 Karma.
Well, this means you would need to increase your perception to 6 costing anohter 12 Karma.
Freefall is also incredibal useful for a sniper. To get it with cyberware you need two cyberlegs. Well, the cyberware is better, no question about that.
But it makes the character easyier to detect.
And everything goes from bad to worse, if the adpet picks up his first initiation an takes Aura masking. Now he can walk as a "mundane" char, while your char will always be checked by magic security (heavy cyber enhancements).

So everything in your development will be sort of a tradeoff, while the adept gets pure improvement over time.
He will replace his second hand stuff with alpha or even better thus getting more ware. (Keeping magical healing simple, keeping a "normal" look (Cyberware scanners, Assensing)
Even more if he gets stuff like masking. (Here I am not sure if it is possible to mask ware, for it is not said)

(While your sniper can be identified by his aura)

It gets better if the adept is forced to pay 5*5= 25 Karma for raising his Magic from 1(4) to 2(5) ( actual value(value without considering essence loss))
Then yes, a mundane sniper may keep up for a time.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 20 2011, 09:25 AM

Street Magic, pg. 53:
"Adepts may learn Divining, Psychometry, and Sensing, as well as the exclusive metamag-ics of Adept Centering, Attunement (Animal and Item), Cognition, Empower Animal, Infusion and Somatic Control, which are available only to adepts and mystical adepts."

So about those Adepts with Aura Masking...
Yeah, mystic adept can take it. Still had to be said. Note that mystic adepts are the redheaded stepchildren of the awakened world. "Hey kids, want to be bad at spellcasting and have subpar physical abilities at the same time? Now you can!"

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 20 2011, 09:36 AM

As far as I know you cannot mask ware. Also note that Masking uses Intuition + Magic + Initiation Grade vs Assesning + Intuition. With a magic attrinute of 1 or 2, good luck with that.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 09:47 AM

Alright did not know that Aura masking is off limit for adepts.
If you go with intuition 4, Magic 2 Initiation 1 you end up with about 7 dices. That also about the assensing pool early game.
(With a few Karma it is getting better and better)

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 20 2011, 09:54 AM

I would say yes. Magic Characters outshine mundanes at equal levels of karma.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 20 2011, 09:55 AM

Assuming someone looking for the cyberadept doesn't just use spirits. Even a Force 6 spirit has at least 12 dice for assensing. That's pretty easy to achieve.

Posted by: Doc Byte Apr 20 2011, 11:14 AM

Last time my cyber-mage got assensed, the other mage saw a mudan with essence 2 but no ware thanks to high-grade ware. (No cyberware below beta-grade and no bioware under alpha-grade.) Fortunately he didn't mistake me for a vampire.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 20 2011, 11:23 AM

Elf mystic adept:
stats:
Magic 5 (4) split 2 and 2 40BP
Agility 9(13) 75BP

Qualities:
Mystic adept 10BP
Surge class 2 10BP
Restricted gear*2 10BP

Surge qualities:
Metagenetic improvement agility

Skills:
Longarms (sniper rifles) 6(+2)
spellcasting (detection) 4(+2)

Adept powers:
Improved ability Longarms 3

Recources 32 BP
Ware:
alphaware Muscle toner 4
Genetic optimization agility
Cyber eyes with smartlink

Gear:
Barret with smartlink

Magical gear:
Force 3 detection spell sustaining focus 3BP to bond

Spells:
Enchance Aim 3BP

257BP used

Dice pool to shoot the barret = Agility 13 + longarms 9 + spec 2 + smartlink 2 = 26 dice
And thanks to the force 3 enchance aim spell in the sustaining focus with 3 hits, no range penalties at any range without needing to take aim action.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 20 2011, 12:00 PM

Yeah, spirits are pretty impressive at astral security.
Reliably finding bioware, delta-grade cyber and masked mages comes in handy, and i am actually assuming that really high-ranking targets (megacorp CEOs, heads of the more important states etc) have a spirit at hand just to scan people for ware and magic.

But most of the time, it's not that hard both for mundanes and mages to hide their powers.
Force 6 spirits are something a mediocre mage better shouldn't mess with, and i'm assuming that most mages out there are rather mediocre.
When we're talking about awakened characters, we are always assuming optimized player character standards.
In fact, there should be a pretty large number of lower-powered awakened among NPCs, people with Magic 3 or 4 and few to no abilities with direct combat applications. People like the occult investigator archetype.
When you manabolt people left and right while your Force 6 spirit wreaks havoc, you are as much ahead of the average Awakened character in the 6th world as a sammy who is one-hitting 6 targets a turn is ahead of the average beat cop.


Oh, and one more thing to add to the general discussion :
A team where the mage buffs the sams will usually outperform a team where the mage buffs himself.
For theoretical optimization purposes that are limited to a single character, the gun mage will beat the sam.
But he couldn't beat an optimized street sam with magical support. That guy would have access to most of the tricks a gun mage has access to (Enhance Aim and various other buff spells like Combat Sense, possession by Guardian Spirits etc), but would have way higher base stats, better damage-soaking abilities, much more points for combat skills in the first place etc.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 01:04 PM

He can't. And yes, I would say 'now he's a mage'… cuz he is. There are no unique hacker tricks. Everyone in SR4 can be (should be!) part hacker.
--
As Irion explained, longbowrocks, you're looking at 0 Karma comparison in the same thread you specifically asked for 'few hundred karma' comparisons. The mage (/awakened character) can get the same 'ware and gear as the sniper. (You may recognize this as the general rule I asked you to repeat. )

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 01:14 PM

Sorry, but this is not only true for medicore mages.
With magic 6 and summoning 6 you would have less than a 50% Chance of success (no edge use of the spirit). And if he fails he lost 6 hours and materials worth of 3000 nuyen. (If you failed big time you may knocks yourself out)

This is not cheap at all. It gets better if you have positive BC and some Foci. But these you need to have first. And it is still 6 hours.


The hole magic system is kind of strange in this aspect. On the one hand magic 6 is seen has high. On the other hand there is no problem with some (not the immortal elf, Dragon etc kind of) NPCs having a magic of 11 and skills of 6.
You got speacial Forces with skills and attributes around 3 and 4 but some prisonguards with 6.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 01:33 PM

My guess would be that the Feywear and the Magic Resistant Quality would stack. Don't know, though, as I have yet to get Attitude.



This is False. You can purchase Latent Awakening, and pick up Magic later in the game. I have even heard of some GM's allowing the purchase of Magic after play starts without having the Latent Awakening Quality. Post Character generation, this does cost an amount of Karma, but it is also a viable solution.



Well...
PAB Programming will allow you to take over someone's Mind, creating a Manchurian Candidate.
Turn to Goo is just a Grenade or two applied in an enclosed Space

And not everyone wants to play a Magically Active character. There ARE drawbacks to playing such a character. I am sure that I do not have to go over those again here, as everyone knows those drawbacks.



Hacker/Riggers are better as Technomancers than they would be as a Mage. Of course, The Hacker I play (A Massively modded CyberLogician) still often runs rings around the Technomancer in the Group. There are things that he does better (Spooof comes to mind, since that is his specialty), but when Hacking, The CyberLogician often finds and hacks the systems long before the technomancer does. His only Benefit is that he can Thread CF's to 14 when he really wants a High Threhold Cap, where I have to Use Edge. (We use the optional rule of Skill + Attribute, capped by Program/CF Rating). A Mage will never outshine the Hacker, though an Adept might come close.



And yet, the mage has to worry about such things as Background Count, Wards, and Other Astral Threats. Where the Mundane could care less. Want to pass through a ward undetected, the mage better shut down ALL of his magic (or hope that his Masking is up to the Task). Sucks to have to recast those things all over again. Especially in the middle of an intrusion. And how often does the mage have all the time in the world to Cleanse or remove all of his spell signatures, throughout the facility? in a run and gun game, he is likely to leave spell signatures all over the place for the opposition to find later. Again, Mundanes just toss the weapon and move on. Kind of Hard fo the mage ot do that.

Yes, Mages are Powerful, and yes, they are very versatile. Can they outshine the Unawakened? Yes, if the GM is not on his game, they can indeed. Is it a forgone conclusion? I do not think so. It takes a very large amount of karma for a Mundane to have nothing else to spend on, Skill and Attribute Caps notwithstanding. The Mage will likely spend all of his karma on magical increases of one type or another. The balance is not as slim as it seems.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 01:40 PM

And at that point you are not really better than a starting mage who has 12 Drain Dice. You have yet to increase any Magic, buy any new spells, purchase any Sustaining Foci, raise your casting Skills, or anything else that would make a good mage excel at his job. But you can sure soak that Drain down. Get real here Seerow. What you are proposing is not a true, viable character in the game world.



Any good Ward will take down a Quickened Spell more often than not (Happened a few times in our game at least), and that does not require any dispelling. Yes, you may be able to pass thorugh the Wards with Masking and Extended Masking metamagics, but then again, you may not. Are you willing to take that chance with high karma quickened spells?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 01:59 PM

False...
You forgot to look at the Main Book.


The above techniques are in addition to those in Street Magic. Any Advanced Techniques relying upon the Metamagics an Adept can Learn, can also be learned by an Adept. So Advanced Masking would work as well, though it is only useable with Weapon Foci, of course.

And... Mystic Adepts have the best of both worlds, though they will be slightly less powerful than a pure Adept or Pure Mage. You really should try such characters before panning them as ineffective.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 02:15 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

How is that?
I mean you only quicken spells with a Force greater 6. First to get them a bit resistant to BC. Whats the point of an increased reflex 4 Spell if you get down to a slaughter house and you drop from 4 IPs to 2 or even one.
So a ward would have to compete against 6*2+6 (Karma) =18 dices. Here you would need a least force 5 to stand a chance. (As a matter of fact, the rules are not clear on what happens if both score the same amount of hits)

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 20 2011, 02:17 PM

That's for binding. Binding a spirit is a way bigger deal than just summoning it, your limit for what you can pull off is going to be much, much higher if you ask for just one day of service.
For my starting mages, it never was a big deal to summon F5 or 6 spirits, at least as long as i had a mentor bonus for them and the PC was geared towards summoning. But binding them wasn't something to be taken lightly. The dain from that alone is prohibitive.



That's not as much a problem of the magic system as it is a problem of different writers having different standards for what constitutes competence.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 02:40 PM

@Rasumichin

Summoning beeing to easy is an other thing to be considered.

Well, all other skills and attributes are "limited" in some way. Magic is not.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 02:45 PM

Ties always go to the Defender (unless it is a touch attack). In this case. the Ward. Wards do not require the benefit of a BC to take down a spell. I have run into Force 6-18 wards in our game, dependant upon where and what we were doing. I have set Force 10 Wards in game. Our Good mage sets wards ranging from Force 9-14. By the time that you are Quickening Force 6+ Spells, you are generally running against targets that have Wards capable of dropping those Spells. And since it is a contested roll, Spell vs. Ward, you cannot even really spend Edge to boost it (the spell is its own entity after all). Are you willing to risk 12-18 karma or so that you are going to win out against every Ward that you come across? I am not. At least not when I can just purchase a Sustaining Focus instead.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 03:06 PM

The defender would be the spell. He is the one getting disrupted.


A Force 18 Ward needs 18 hours to be set up and everyone has to resist 18 Points of drain. Thats deadly.


This I do not know. Because you as a player are rolling the test so you may spend edge on your test.


Thats getting a bit expensive if you are talking force 8 to 10 spells.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 20 2011, 03:08 PM

Hence the only combat spell my character has is Stunbolt. It's a really good spell for taking out spirits. Everything else can be done better with a gun. For those pesky drones... MGL-6 with high explosive grenades FTW. No Drain, no beating OR, no Astral Security screaming down on me.



If you look at the character I posted. I spent quite a bit of cash on his commlink and the programs. Yes I didn't buy the full up programs, but getting those as Warez is pretty easy... especially if you have any skill or a hacker buddy that you trust.



This is the reason why my Combat Medic Mage has Synaptic Booster 1 and if I play I plan on getting Beta grade Synaptic Booster 2. Yeah 3 IP is not enough to keep up with the wired-to-the-max Sammy, but still good enough as to not be a liability. It also means that I don't have waste time to cast that initiative booster. Also I know that the Synaptic Booster ALWAYS works.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 03:17 PM

No, teh defender would be the Ward, as that is what is being penetrated.




Only if you cannot take the Drain. Our exceptional Mage survived the 20 Boxes of Drain from Spirit Summoning. It can be done. Of course, Force 18 Wards are likely to be Physical Drain, but again, it just takes some forthought in how to establish the resistance of said Attempt.


I the player roll the test for the Drone that is being piloted by the Pilot, and yet I cannot add Edge. I would nopt allow it myself.


If you need 8-10 spells to be Quickened, you are likely already addicted to magic anyways. I have never had a need for more than 3-4 Foci. And it is FAR less expensive than having to renew your Quickened spells if, and when, they get disrupted. All it takes is ONCE for your 8-10 spells to be brought down and you will be useless for the runs it takes to gain the karma (18 x 8-10 karma) for the Spells you need to reestablish... Seems like the Foci are the way to go in my book.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 20 2011, 03:23 PM

Force 8-10 spells, not 8-10 different spells

Posted by: Cheops Apr 20 2011, 03:27 PM

@Cyberzombies: It used to be insanely rare and a difficult procedure to get. With SR4 they made it just a matter of time before you get it so now there is nothing really stopping a PC. But back in the day you used to have to suck Lowfyr's cock before you could get the treatment. Now that Delta clinics are everywhere (there used to be 5 in the whole world) if a PC saves up the money I'd let him.

@ Detect Enemies: the reason it works in that situation is because Longbow was suggesting a straight up confrontation between the mage and the street sam. Thus even though the street sam hasn't seen the mage he has come looking for him with the specific intention of killing him. Thus he is an enemy.

@ The Matrix: Physad/MysAd hackers are actually pretty good hackers and are super coders. If you are making a non-0.01 Essence hacker you are usually better off playing a Physad. Magic and the Matrix actually gets even funnier if you GM is stupid enough to use the Logic + Skill capped by program optional rules instead of basic rules.

However, I will say that the Matrix is the one bastion of Non-Awakened characters in SR4. Unless like most of us grognards you consider Technomancers to be mages.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 03:43 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Foki can be destroyed too. As a matter of fact it is quite easy. Depending on the foci a unwilling bath is enough to kill it. (A fireball would kill it anyway considering the barrier ratings)

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 03:54 PM

Yeah, that's my eventual goal, but it's nice to start small, y'know. I wouldn't start a new thread just to ask the same question with 0 Karma instead of 200-300.

Well, as long as they have enough magic to avoid getting burned out.
I'm kind of avoiding this until I can think of something concrete that mundanes can do and mages can't. So far I'm stuck at:

• Super cybering at creation (essence below 1).
• Keeping up with mundanes in terms of gear, stats, and skills (same rate, but start out behind due to sinking BP into their quality and magic at creation).

I don't really think this is an impressive list though, and I know there's more in there if I just scour from page to page.

BTW: Thanks for the comparison Max. I haven't forgotten, and will get back to that later today.

Posted by: Cheops Apr 20 2011, 03:59 PM

Despite what I said Longbow you really should add Matrix to the list of things non-Awakened can do better. An Awakened trying to be a hacker usually ends up a one-trick pony and surrenders that versatility we've been talking about. This is the main situation where a mundane ends up being more versatile than the Awakened (but not TMs).

Posted by: Seerow Apr 20 2011, 04:06 PM

The hawkeye quality can be taken by anybody. I'm talking about the hawkeye spell. Though I apparently once again confused it with Enhance Aim. Though Hawkeye isn't bad for helping to spot that guy 5 miles away.

Enhance Aim (Passive, Directional)
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F÷2)–1
This spell improves a voluntary subject’s aim. Each hit on the Spellcasting Test reduces the Range category for ranged attacks by one level, thus reducing range modifiers. Unlike image magnification, however, the subject does not need a Take Aim action to “lock onto” a target; the spell does that auto-magically. This effect is cumulative with other targeting devices, implants, and abilities (laser sights, scopes, smartlinks, Improved Ability adept power, etc.). The caster must touch the subject of the spell.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 20 2011, 04:12 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with 'trodes, getting Data Search, Hacking, Electronic Warfare & Cybercombat skills, and getting a good commlink, why couldn't a Mage hack as well as a hacker?

Are there skills that I am missing to make a good hacker?

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 04:17 PM

@longbowrocks
Comparing a pure SAM to a pure adept, the Sam will be ahead for a long time.
(Maybe even forever)
But with the very soft rules on magic loss thorugh ware an adept is able to go both ways and gets the best of both worlds. Yes, he first has to pay to enter but it will pay out soon.

Mystic adepts only work if you allow certain "tricks" with adept powers.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 04:28 PM

Pretty sure from Context that Irion was talking about 8-10 Spells, Not Force. He did say that it was not worth Quickening any Spell of less than Force 6. Could be wrong though.

Still, Having to replace a Force 8-10 Spell each time it was brought down would get crazy expensive with Karma, Real Fast. Increasingly so with each additional Spell above the first.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 04:28 PM

Thanks for the support for mundanes. I can see how technomancers and hackers would beat magic users in the matrix. On the other hand, I'm pretty fixated on combat at the moment.

Also, aren't technomancers awakened? There's no way they count as mundane, seeing as definitively mundane people cannot replicate a technomancer's abilities.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 04:34 PM

Nothing Stupid about that rule at all. In fact, I quite like it. It makes the Hacker actually mean something, rather than having the Hacker (using the basic system) with the Logic of 1, which I have seen. There is no reason to have a Logic higher than 1 for hacking in the basic ruleset.

And an optimized Hacker will likely have enough ware in him to completely negate the benefits of the Adept's magic. I will admit to really wanting the ability to Multitask, that the Adept can acquire, but that is really about it. And though you cannot bypass that limit with ware (though you can come close, at least fluff wise), the Adept will likely not have 3-4 passses in the Meat, as well as 5 in the Matrix.

Posted by: Seerow Apr 20 2011, 04:37 PM

Can you buy the same quality twice to gain double the benefit? Feyware per Attitude is an item that grants a quality, I can't imagine a quality stacking with itself.



Latent Awakening gives you 1 Magic, and if when it activates you have used any essence at all, you're an instant burnout, unless there's something I missed.



I dunno, my group shies away from technomancers so I'm not particularly familiar with what they are capable of, but from what I've read they seem to be very hit and miss. Especially with that houserule, where you're just increasing your threshold, and the adept is throwing 3 extra dice



A straight up mage will be very versatile, with high magic etc, and has different ways to counter it that need to be put in just for the mage.

An adept on the other hand will basically always be better than a mundane at his specialization. Even if there is nothing else in the power list to support the specialization, the 3 higher skill cap will do it.



Really? The character in question has 10 initiate grades, this means he has 9 metamagics besides centering, and most of those also scale from initiate grade. Just being a grade 10 initiate is a pretty huge deal that does a lot more for you than drain resistance. And you still have nearly 200 more karma to increase magic further, or pick up more foci (for example a solid power foci could be more efficient than a straight up magic increasing. You have a ton of drain resistance so you can overcast to a relatively high force without worrying too much, thus lowering some of the benefit of higher magic).

The only karma spent ONLY on drain is the 10 karma on quickening 2 force 5 spells.



There was a choice between a low karma quickened spell for a situation where dispelling and high force wards aren't frequent, and high karma quickened spells if they are. High Karma quickened spells aren't going to be taken down by wards anywhere near as often. A Force 6 barrier has 12 dice to throw at it. Your force 5 quickened spell may only have 11+ dice to throw at it, by a force 16 overcasted spell has 22+ dice (the plus being any extra karma invested in it and any extra magic raising or force foci)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 04:39 PM

Feasible, but not as easy as you would think. I cannot remember the last time that a Focus was destroyed by happenstance (it is generally a plot element). I have seen many Quickened spells fall to the vagaries of implemented Wards, however. They are not equal in any fashion whatsoever. Foci are MUCH more valuable than a Quickened spell in my opinion.

Besides, using your logic, a human would never survive the effects of the Fireball either. If a Human can survive the effect, his Foci should have no real issue with it. Obviously, something is wrong with your example.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Apr 20 2011, 04:46 PM

Any creature with a Magic attribute is Awakened, any creature with a Ressonance attribute is Emerged.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 04:49 PM

I think Mystic Adepts work out Great, even without any tricks...

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 04:53 PM

I think he was going by the rules. Handheld object frequently have structure ratings of 1 due to their size, and as for armor/barrier rating, I hardly expect your focus to be made of reinforced concrete or diamond.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 05:05 PM

Yeah, I do not know. But you can get Qualities and gear that do the same thing and they stack. So...



Nope, you missed it. Your Magic is a 1, and your Maximum Magic is 6- Essence Loss, You can raise your magic from there, and Initiations will increase your MAximum MAgic Attribute as normal.



Technomancer can rule the School eventually, and and Adept will never keep up.



Yes, a mage is very versatile, No arguments.
An Adept, all other things being equal, will still potentially have +3 Dice.



But that Grade 10 Initiate MUST have a minimum Magic of 10 to go with it, otherwise he cannot be a Grade 10 Initiate. You can only have a number of Initiate Grades equal to magic rating. You may have a number of Metamagic techniques equal to your Magic + Initiate Grade. So, to get 10 grades of Initiation, you have spent HUGE amounts of Karma (minimum of 170 on Magic, Assuming you started at Magic 6, and an additional 164 for the Initiations: Total of 334 Karma Expenditure) on nothing else . Nothing at all. So you are really not all that much better than a mage who is fresh out of Character Generation. You will have more options, to be sure, but you will not be significantly more powerful overall.



Which all take MORE resources to get there, oppn top of your already ludicrous spellcaster, who is not much better than the newb off the street casting wise.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 20 2011, 05:48 PM

Not every delta clinic offers cybermancy. There's still only about a dozen institutions that include cybermancers among their staff, but the procedure has indeed become a good deal more common, more reliable and also more powerful than in previous editions.

I'd still require to call in a few favors to get the treatment, but it shouldn't be that much more difficult than getting into a standard delta clinic (which is only a Tr 24 Availability test away).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 06:18 PM

Tymeaus, if they have Latent Awakening, they're an Awakened character for our purposes; buying Magician later is pure GM houseruling. Technomancers are equivalent to Awakened. They're not mundane.

The mage doesn't have to worry about BC/Wards/astral threats if he doesn't 'go astral'. Again, he can have all the abilities and gear of a mundane… plus the magic, when desired. They do have unique drawbacks (thank god!), but hardly crippling.

Not that it's a major issue, but the question of 'who's the defender, spell or ward?' sounds far from clear.

Is cybermancy *really* that common now? :/ I don't think it's relevant, though. Cyberzombies are NPC-only, and they're a huge threat to everyone (mage or not).

Posted by: Mäx Apr 20 2011, 06:20 PM

Those 10 grades of iniation can alos give you +20 dice for counterspelling and allow you to absorb incoming spells completely up to about force 6 ( if they use higher force spells you just reduce it by 6 or so)
witch also allows you to reduce your next spells drain by 6, allowing you to cast pretty damm high force spells when combined with those 40 resistance dice.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 06:35 PM

They are not awakened until they actually AWAKEN. Come on Yerameyahu, you know that. And yes, Allowing purchase after the fact is a house rule. Not one we use, but I have heard of others that allow it. Technomancers are not awakened. Not sure why you would think so.

Mages always have to worry about Background Count and Wards. ALWAYS. Whether or not they are actually active in Astral Space. Not sure why you would think differently there Yerameyahu.

Cybermancy is more common than it used to be, but not really that common, no.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 06:40 PM

Sure, if you actually have any spells to cast with... The premise of the 400 Karma Character was eaten up by all of the Initiating. So, you just have your starting spells for the most part. Your target can only be so dead after all. And it is far easier to do with mundane resources than magical ones.

In my opinion, the mage spent that wad of karma for no reason, and I would never want such an inept character with my team. Give me the Magic 4 (Starting Character), Initate Grade 3 (29 Karma) mage with 50 (250 Karma) Spells anyday... He spent 279 Karma out of the ionitial 400, has 121 Karma Left, and will be infintely more useful. That monstrosity that is being hypothesized is useless as far as I am concerned.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 06:41 PM

I didn't say they were awakened, fullstop. I said they're awakened for our purposes. And I didn't say Technomancers were awakened. I said they were equivalent. For a thread specifically about awakened vs. mundane? Come on, Tymeaus.

No, they don't. Without active foci, quickened spells, etc., they can walk right through like anyone else. Are you thinking of Dual-Natured critters?

I don't understand why you're acting like I'm the crazy one.

Posted by: Cheops Apr 20 2011, 07:08 PM

Amen brother. 50 spells make you the christmas tree full of golf bags of utility. Wreck Drone, Urban Renewal (Guns), most Detection spells, most Manipulation spells, and some Illusion/Health to round it out. Booyah. You could get a Force 10 ally spirit with that 121 Karma and still have karma left.

Ahh...just checked Augmentation again. I thought that medical care table included Cybermancy in the footnotes. My bad. Delta is still ridiculously easy to get in this edition making it damn nigh infinitely more accessible for PCs to zombie. No more needing to roll 20's and 30's on you d6 for availability anymore. <sigh> Takes a lot of the wonder and fun out of the high end gear.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 07:26 PM

Is that an argument that awakened characters outshine, or not? The power of having many spells is a major asset of a spellcasting character (even with a more reasonable number, like 20).

Posted by: Mäx Apr 20 2011, 07:41 PM

Actually it's pretty hard to make a cyber zombie out of delta ware, becouse you need so damm many different pieces of ware to get into sub zero essence.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 07:50 PM

Just out of curiosity: Initiation cost 10+*level* x 3 doesn't it?
So you would end up with: 10*10+55*3=100+165=265 Karma (with all discounts you end up with 173 Karma (always round up!))
You might have already calculated the discount but for that you need to join a group for an additional 5 Karma.
So you end up with a least 178 Karma for initiation alone. Ad to this the cost of Magic 170.
You will end up with 348 used karma leaving you 52 for the rest.
Yes I know Initiations get better the more you got, because you get +1 to even more.
And you have no direct benefits. No ally spirit, not even a focus, no quickend spells. etc.
Sorry, but from a PG point of few there is nothing usefull in getting Magic 10 for 50 Karma.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 07:52 PM

Are you talking about deltaware in general? Because I have no idea how the 1 mil required for delta wired reflexes 3 counts as "easy".

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 08:06 PM

Okay, point taken...



Actaully, the point being argued was that the spellcaster just had to buff his quickened spells to such a point that they could ignore any BCG or Wards. My counter to that was that that was Crap... Yes, if there are no spells active, and no Foci Active, then they are treated as a mundane. I Never actually argued that point. My contention is that the proposed character with the 10 Initiate Grades and the 8-10 Quickened Spells was ludicrous, because it could not function the way it was being presented. That is all...



Aren't you? Sorry if I was ruffling feathers.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 08:09 PM

I never use quickened spells in the first place, so that's someone else's argument to deal with. And no, you know well enough that you're the crazy one!

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 08:19 PM

Full body replacement (6.25) + Move by wire 3(5) + Cybereyes(0.5) + Cyberears (0.5) and you are home
Together 12.25 divided by two is 6.125.
Well, but I have to admit it is harder to get lower. Because now the slots of the bodyparts need to be filled. This will be getting damn expensive.
(If you want some usefull cyberlegs you are paying hell)
Not to mention the maintance you would need to "function".
(If you use essence saving qualities, genetics and get the bio version of the implants too, yes then you won't make it without getting the hole damn two books . Using cyber suites is a no go too.)

While possible in theorie, it is highly inefficient. You get nothing you would not get cheaper with 4 Points of Bio and 3 Points of Cyber. (5.5 Essence)
Getting deeper than essence -4 I think it is not even possible if you use the essence saving stuff.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 08:36 PM

I did the math for each level individually, not as a group, which makes a difference.
8+10+12+14+15+17+19+21+23+24= 163, +5 (Group Cost) =168 (Group and Ordeal Discounts of 40%)... Added to the 170 becomes 338. So you are off by 10 points.

And yes... No direct benefits other than initiation... which is poor character crafting indeed.
And you do not get Magic 10 for 50 Karma... you get it for 170 Karma.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 08:37 PM

I never use them either... waste of points in my opinion.
And, I prefer the term Unique...

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Apr 20 2011, 08:49 PM

AFB right now, but I'm almost positive sure that all these metamagics you just quoted from the Street Magic are all from Street Magic, which means the book is only refering to the new metamagics provided in the book. Not the ones from the core book (which Masking is one of the few metamagics an Adept may take from the core book).

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 20 2011, 09:08 PM

I wouldn't call them common, but yes, the number of clinics that do the treatment have more than doubled since the days of Hatchetman.
Not surprising, it's been 15 years ingame time between Beyond the Pale and Augmentations.
And once more, they aren't officially NPC only. I think toxics, insect shamans, dissonants, dracoforms and a few very obscure sapient critters are the only things in SR4 that still are NPC only nowadays.




You get drastically raised attribute maxima and you get to cheat death. You won't get fake immortality and Agility 15(22) with 4 points of bio and 3 points of cyber.
As far as getting below -4, i didn't double-check the math, but with lots of geneware and almost any compatible piece of cyber and bio in the book, you can still get to -6 or at least close to it even with full delta, biocompatibility, adapsin and a cybersuit.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 09:18 PM

Genetic Optimization for every Attribute would net you a Cool 3.2 Essence Loss all by itself, and there are no grades for such things. Throw in a suite of Gene-Tweaked Immunities, and you are almost at 6 Essence loss all by itself. With no further 'ware implanted. It is not all that hard to get to -6 Essence, even with Delta Grade Everything. One could argue that the Procedure uses the optimization of Suites as well, but Adapsion is only for Cyberware. Biocompatability, of course, can be applied to either technology.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 20 2011, 09:33 PM

That house rule is a bit unfriendly to technomancers. Even so, a technomancer with the appropriate Widgets prepared (they add their rating to all [insert specific category of matrix-related] tests, and last for eight hours) is going to wreck some face.

As a side note, I have no problem whatever with a Logic 1 hacker or technomancer. If you want to play an idiot savant, go right ahead. But such a person is not a functional human being, and is likely not smart enough to do complex tasks outside of the one area that he mysteriously excels at. Functionally, he'd be comparable to that Dwarf enchanter character from Dragon Age: "Enchantment?" "I like dogs!" "Doggie! Ruff ruff ruff!" "Can I have some salamanders, please?"

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 09:38 PM

You are under a misaprehension. Logic 1 is Functional... Just barely, but functional.

Knew a guy in the Corps that would likely fall into that category in Shadowrun. Took orders really well, but had very little initiative. His ASVAB scores were the lowest I had ever seen, just barely above acceptable.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 09:56 PM

Yes indeed I somehow mixed up some numbers. The first is also incorrect.
The 50 however is correct. It meant from 9 to 10.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 20 2011, 09:59 PM

If you choose to interpret it that way, may I suggest the following?

Log1 Hacker: "Ok, so I found the node. Time to break in and get myself admin access."
GM: "Excellent. Roll a memory test."
Log1 Hacker: *rolls* "Two hits on five dice succeeds, right? This is an easy task?"
GM: "For you? No. You have logic 1. This is HARD for you. You forget what you were doing."
Log1 Hacker. "Frak me. Why did I choose to play a hacker with a logic of 1 again?"
GM: "Because you're a bad person."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 10:22 PM

Metagaming Bullshit.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 20 2011, 11:21 PM

Not at all. If someone is really prepared to play a character with stats at 1, they should accept the consequences of having done so. You have a logic of 1? This makes you mentally deficient. Not just a bit on the slow side but takes orders well - that would be logic 2 - but truly mentally deficient. Expect it to come up every single time you perform a logic related task, just the same as having a charisma of 1 would come up every time you opened your mouth in a social situation.

If a player is really going to try to be that kind of asshat and will not respond to reason (and, more importantly, is NOT intending to roleplay the deficiencies of his character), then it would be irresponsible NOT to let him suffer the full consequences for his poor decision. In this way, the player can serve as a valuable example to others. This is, of course, all you can hope for if a player is really THAT much of an asshat. Other options include telling him, "No. Build another character."

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 20 2011, 11:22 PM

Whether it's a hard task or not depends on the task alone.
There is no "character has low Attribute level" penalty anywhere in the rules.

As far as the barely functional stuff goes, there's qualities specifically for that.
An attribute score of 1 only means you've got no talent at all for certain skills. Being a complete couch potato requires infirm, behaving as if you just ran out of your home forest for the first time requires Uneducated and/or Uncouth and there's qualities for being dangerously forgetful, oblivious, delusional or outright mentally handicapped as well.

Edit :
Look up Mental Handicap on p. 105 of Runner's Companion. Look up Oblivious on p. 107. Look up Uncouth and Incompetent in the core rules.
That's the stuff you're looking for in your examples.

Per default, SR4 assumes that the character is at least functional. Maybe not by a far margin, but to a point where he could make up for it by training (read : buying the appropriate skills) to peform at least slightly above average at a given task.

Posted by: Sephiroth Apr 20 2011, 11:42 PM

I agree with Rasumichin. There is nothing whatsoever in the rules that says that an attribute at 1 makes you mentally or physically handicapped. That is specifically what the qualities are for. In any case, Logic is NOT The Other Game's Intelligence. It is the ability to memorize stuff. You don't have to be autistic to be very bad at memorization.

If a GM is doing what you suggest to a character with an attribute at 1, they are doing so against RAW and through fiat. In that case, 'twould be the GM who is being a bit of an ass, not the player.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 20 2011, 11:45 PM

Most people have accepted that we have an excellent method for enforcing this, based on probability.
It's called dice.
The penalty doesn't need to be enforced by the GM, it's already enforced by the dice pool. They can still complete the task easily? Then it really is an easy task. Yes, even for them.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Apr 21 2011, 12:59 AM

The problem is the logic 1 hacker can still have a hacking dice pool in the mid 20s.

Yes, in Shadowrun it really is as easy as pushing the big button labeled HACK.




-k

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 21 2011, 01:00 AM

Before I start:

>>spending half as much as enhanced attribute needed for an (arguably) even better boost.
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs46/i/2009/183/c/d/Clever_Girl_by_jimoakley666.jpg

Sorry, I should have been more specific (damage vs. damage per second). Edge and IPs also play a role in damage, and whoever goes first will have an edge, so initiative has a little weight too. I didn't modify your MysAd in any way, so could we give this one more shot?


Elf:
stats:
Agility 9(13) = 75 BP
Reaction 5(9) = 40 BP
Intuition 5 = 40 BP
Edge 6 = 65 BP

Qualities:
Surge class 2 = 10 BP
Restricted gear*3 = 15 BP
Aptitude = 10 BP

Surge qualities:
Metagenetic improvement agility

Skills:
Longarms (sniper rifles) 8(+2) = 34 BP
34 BP

Recources 204k = 41 BP & 5.95 ess (wow, didn't realize I was that close until I did the math)
Ware:
Muscle toner 4 = 32k & 0.8 ess (0.4 ess due to cyberware)
Genetic optimization agility = 45k & 0.2 ess
Reflex recorder = 10k & 0.1 ess (0.05 ess due to cyberware)
Wired reflexes 3 = 100k & 5 ess
Reaction enhancers 1 = 10k & 0.3 ess

Gear:
Helmet with smartlink = 0.6k
Barret with external smartgun system = 6.4k

330 BP used

Dice pool to shoot the barret = Agility 13 + longarms 8 + spec 2 + smartlink 2 = 25 dice
Initiative = 14
IPs = 4

The mundane has 1 less die, and range penalties, but very high initiative and IPs.
I don't know if you can fit 4 IPs and 14 INI on a starting MysAd while maintaining all the rest of that, but we'll see.

At the very least it's clear to me now that adepts can invest for the long run, but whether they will take the day in a short campaign is still up in the air.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 21 2011, 01:05 AM

They didn't tell us in the book, but in the future, Turing complexity problems are old hat. Instead, Walt Disney complexity programs are used to write Turing complexity programs.
Anyway, yeah, enough aids will do it. Isn't part of that mad boost from skill?

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 21 2011, 01:07 AM

Disagreements over interpretations of what it means to have an attribute rated at 1 aside, on the subject of Adept Hackers, is a mundane hacker left in the dust by adepts and technomancers? Widgets can make a technomancer's dice pools stupidly high. Adepts can easily get their matrix skills to +3 above mundane limits. Hmm.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 21 2011, 01:23 AM

Oh god no. We already have 8 pages on combat tradeoffs. Imagine what arguing this would do. As for that +3 bonus, can't hackers get any direct modifiers (the ones that count against your 1.5X cap) to their skills?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 21 2011, 01:27 AM

We should avoid rehashing the whole (subjective) debate over Logic-based hacking here. There are plenty of previous threads about it, or we can start a new one. Suffice it to say that the SR4 canon fluff is that there's *nothing* at all wrong with script kiddies; some *players*, like Tymeaus, disagree. That's fine, but it's a deliberate and personal *setting change*, not a rules issue per se. It is an optional rule in the book which alters the setting in this specific way.

There are also old threads on Technomancer v. mundane hacker, and almost certainly v. adept hacker; it doesn't bear too much on this thread.

As for cybermancy, it's NPC-only. Or rather, it's 'not for starting characters'.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 21 2011, 07:26 AM

Add these to my mysad
stats:
Reaction 5 = 40 BP
Intuition 5 = 40 BP
Edge 4 = 40 BP
Qualities:
Resricted gear 5BP
Gear:
Heath Sustaining focus force 4 8BP + 3BP to bind
spells:
Increase Reflexes 3BP


BP used 396 (yes he's not a working character but neither is really the mundane one)

With a force 4 Increase Reflexes spell with 4 hits active he has 4IP:S and 13 INI
So the Mundane sniper has 1 less dice, 1 more INI, 2 more Edge and 66BP more to spend.

Posted by: toturi Apr 21 2011, 08:08 AM

The game makes no such claim of Logic 1 being mentally deficient. While I do think it is fair that the low attribute come up in play each time the character performs a logic related task, it does not mean that the character is really mentally deficient. Whether your character is actually mentally deficient or not, let the dice decide; success means no, failure means yes.

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 21 2011, 08:35 AM

Whether your character is actually mentally deficient or not, let the dice decide; success means no, failure means yes.
Or You take a negative Quality !

Or the GM gives away a few more Points.

with a few more Dances
Medicineman

Posted by: PoliteMan Apr 21 2011, 08:43 AM

Why?
#1 If the guy wants to cripple himself, why do you want to penalize him further? Low Logic hackers are a bit stronger at chargen but fall behind the programming/hardware curve pretty fast.
#2 I'm sorry, no hacker is stupid (Hacker PC yes, hacker no). A hacker is genetically modified to be smarter, has a computer installed in his brain to help him think, and literally soaks his brain in intelligence-enhancing nanites. After that even a complete moron is at least an idiot savant and it just goes up from there.

I think the term you're looking for is script kiddie and no one expects them to be smart.

On the original topic, hackers are probably the archetype (besides Sams) that benefits least from Awakening. That just means that an Adept hacker isn't going to be much better than a mundane one, probably just some minor improvement, but if you absolutely have to be the best hacker you'd probably still go Adept or Mysad

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 12:58 PM

I hate Script Kiddies.

As for the absolutely best Hacker? I would go Technomancer long before I went Adept or MysAd. But, then again, I see no reason to go either way. The hacker I have now is pretty damn good. And I still have 'ware I can get to make him even better. Not to mention increasing his skills to 6.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 21 2011, 01:15 PM

'I see no reason' != 'there is no reason'.

I do agree that hacker is only of the least desirable areas of specialty for an awakened, due to the existence of technomancers and to the opportunity cost: the awakened could do so much more, and the Matrix has crappy synergy with the astral, or even magic on the physical plane. *Not* because he's worse than a mundane.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 01:29 PM

True. But the emphasis was on the "I" part of that sentence. heh...

I imagine you could make a pretty good hacker with a Mage/Adept/MysAd theme to it. I have just never tried to do so. Using the optional rules set that we do, the extra dice obtained by the Adept for Increased Skill will generally not matter, due to caps emplaced by program ratings. Most adept abilities do not function in the Matrix after all. For the Mage/MysAd bent, the external Magic could indeed help to get a Hacker where he needs to be, but I have often found that the Technology available to a mundane hacker does that job just as well. Of course, a Face Mage/Hacker has all sorts of awesome potential in my mind, so there is that. Maybe I will have to look at designing such a character one of these days, though I have a much better idea for such a character using the Techgnomancer as a basis, that I am currently working on fleshing out now.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2011, 01:30 PM

Well, hopefully the game I have with http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=34790&view=findpost&p=1062568 will be a good experiment in this question.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 02:30 PM

Let us know how it works out...

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 07:19 PM

Maybe I'm just tired, but I can't think of anything to beat this at creation. Looks like MysAds can beat mundane in damage even at creation.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 07:41 PM

Ok, how about this? Mundanes can get their AGI 2 points higher than any spellcaster.
Elf agi 7 + meta attrib 1 + enhanced attrib 1 + genetic opt 1 = 10 -> 10/2 = 5
max modified = 15 AGI

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 22 2011, 07:47 PM

Huh? Do you mean just at chargen? I can't keep track of the switches from 'chargen' to 'high karma'.
Oh, because of the quality limit?

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 07:56 PM

Sorry about that, you're right we keep changing back and forth. Actually I mean that spellcasters can never get 15 AGI except with latent awakening (you won't benefit from being awakened until really late in the game, and it's a gamble since the GM chooses your awakened quality). Dormant Metagenetics will not do the trick since it costs 10 BP for non-humans.
That ends up being a 20% chance of becoming a MysAd with 15 AGI at some point in the game, provided you are willing to powergame like crazy, wait an undetermined amount of time, and take that risk.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 22 2011, 08:02 PM

And it's not worth it, for a measly +2 (not even a net hit), especially when they can more than make up for that other ways. Assuming their purpose in life was to waste all their potential and be a sniper. And don't even get started on Channeling mages…

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 08:05 PM

They also get that bonus on all their AGI based skills, and mundanes can perform this same trick for any physical attribute.
Where's the crying emoticon?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 22 2011, 08:10 PM

For any one attribute, yes. I think it's equally inefficient for all attributes, but you're right: the peculiarities of the quality limit do result in this. I'm just saying that the bonuses brought to bear by any given kind of awakened far outweigh +2 to one attrib's *max*. I think you're miscalculating anyway, although I forget if you're over or under.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 08:15 PM

Miscalculating on what? The quality limit?
It should be 10 BP for SURGE II (which gives you just enough for metagenetic improvement AGI), and 20 BP for enhanced attribute AGI.
That leaves 5 BP, which is enough to be an adept, but not enough to be a spellcaster.
Genetic optimization is 45k in nuyen, so whatever there.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 22 2011, 08:43 PM

Not that. The maximum.

Genetic Optimization is worded funky, so it might mean that it raises the max by 1; but I assume RAI that it's just funky wording, and it's actually 1.5. (I've mentioned my general 'round against the player' rule, but I'm only saying there's a minor ambiguity).

Metagenic Improvement explicitly raises the max by 1, not 1.5. Augmented max rounds down, so it'd be 14 (regardless of the interpretation of Genetic Optimization).

I'm not saying this is very important, just pointing out a tiny error for you.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 09:03 PM

I think I'm misunderstanding. It shouldn't matter whether these boosts raise anything by 1.5, since augmented maximum is derived from natural maximum in all cases (both RAI and RAW).
elf max is 7 for AGI, each of those three boosts stacks explicilty on the natural maximum, raising the max to 10. if natural max is 10, augmented max is 1.5*10=15.

Genetic optimization:
"may raise his maximum natural attribute rating (and consequently
his maximum augmented attribute rating)"
"This adjustment is compatible
with Exceptional Attribute."

Enhanced attribute:
"one attribute with a natural
maximum one point higher"
"This also increases the augmented maximum
for that attribute as appropriate."

Metagenetic improvement:
"minimum and maximum values for one of
the character’s attributes (as listed in the Metatype Attribute Table,
p.73, SR4) are both raised by 1."
"cumulative with the Exceptional
Attribute quality (p. 78, SR4) and genetech such as Genetic
Optimization (p. 89, Augmentation)."

This has got to be the first time that the important bits of each of these has made it into one post. Hope everybody likes it.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 09:06 PM

Could you also post a bit on channeling mages? I don't know what you mean by that, but I doubt it will derail the thread.

Besides, this thread is barely hanging on by a thread anyway.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 22 2011, 09:45 PM

What the hell are you talking about?
Those 3 thinks all raise the natural maximum by one, in case of an elfs agility to 10, so augmented maximum is 15

But you can't actually get to that augmented maximum(unless you want to use drugs), because you only have enought points left for one restricted gear quality, so your mundane also won't have a barret out of chargen.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 09:48 PM

The mentions of 1.5 strike me as odd, but when I'm this blown away by what one of the guys with over 4k posts says, there's usually a good explanation. For now I'm just waiting for Yerameyahu to come back.


Yeah, I guess I should mention again that I can't find any way to beat that MysAd from chargen, so MysAd's really do beat mundanes for combat damage acros the board.

That said, I decided to continue my adventure into the things awakened/spellcasters can't do that mundanes can.

Posted by: Seerow Apr 22 2011, 09:57 PM

A channeling mage takes a bound spirit with the possession power and lets it posses him, but thanks to the channeling metamagic maintains control of his body. He picks up immunity to natural weapons doing this as well.


So a typical 3s across the board mage summons a force 6 spirit and channels it, and now has 9 in all physical stats.

I'm not sure if this follows normal augmented maximums or not, but either way it's powerful. (And if it doesn't it's just silly broken)

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 22 2011, 10:19 PM

The spirit originally added it's Force to the augmented max. That got errata'ed and the old maximum stays in place now.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 22 2011, 10:20 PM

Jeez, that is crazy.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 02:14 AM

Ha, oh geez. I'm sorry, I was reading G.O. as 'augmented maximum' is raised by one. There is no reason, I just was. Mental lapse.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 23 2011, 02:39 AM

lol, thanks.