Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 19 2011, 03:01 PM

What the topic says. What do you think from which point on you only start to fill up holes instead of balancing disadvantages out you had through the limitations at chargen? All opinions are welcome.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 19 2011, 03:05 PM

It depends on the character. Unawakened characters will run out of things to spend karma on much sooner than awakened ones (who never run out since they can initiatei infinitely).

It also depends on the campaign and the GM. If the GM wants to run a street level campaign and is uncomfortable or unwilling to run a high powered game then you might become unplayable after 100 karma.

It also depends on how balanced your character was at the start. If you started with ~20 gun dice at the expense of 35 points of negative qualities and ones in several stats then it will take you a lot longer to pull yourself up to average in those areas than it would the guy who only went with 15 gun dice but has a lot of secondary skills and no stats at 1.

Posted by: Cheops Apr 19 2011, 03:09 PM

When you only have 8-14 hit points and each successful attack is dealing 4+ you never reach a point where you have too much Karma. At the very least Street Sams can always burn Edge to survive that bazooka shot to the face and then buy the attribute point back. Essentially karma becomes a damage soak at high enough levels.

Plus don't overlook knowledge skills. The difference between a prime runner and a gutter punk is the Knowledge Skills.

Posted by: Blade Apr 19 2011, 03:12 PM

It depends on a lot of things, but from experience, I've got the impression that the imbalance between characters start to show around 100 karma points, especially with awakened characters.

Though with some players, you'll have characters that are far more powerful at chargen than other character with 100 karma points.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 19 2011, 03:31 PM

This.

Money is also a factor, however.

My last character would have needed about 50-75 karma to reach the level of ability the other players started with (I essentially had 60 BP that wasn't doing anything useful).

Posted by: Nath Apr 19 2011, 06:10 PM

In my opinion, characters really are "unplayable" in two cases :
- when the Gamemaster is no longer willing, background-wise, to increase police/security/military stats and gear to keep your character in line when he needs to
- when your abilities, whatever they are, makes one of your teammate useless.
Note those has nothing to do with karma, and can actually happen at chargen.

Posted by: Cheops Apr 19 2011, 06:16 PM

/signed

Also, when you as a player decides in character that your character is comfortable enough to retire. I've had that happen in some campaigns.

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 19 2011, 08:11 PM

Unplayable? Never, really. Oh, sure, you can have a character more and more able to murder people, but once you're able to kill someone without much in the way of effort, there's really not much that changes by getting even MORE able to kill people. Attributes have a cap. Social skills have a cap. Matrix skills have a cap. Magic has no cap, but functionally, there's no reason to go above Magic 8 unless you're a Mystic Adept.

No longer fun to play? Depends on the GM. Storytelling and roleplaying counts for a lot with longevity of characters. If all you're doing is taking mercenary jobs and hitting various facilities, and it's one mission after another, with the primary goal to get more powerful? That gets old right quick regardless of what level of karma you're at. If you've got a good story with compelling characters and roleplayed well who have concrete goals and motivations and pasts and who happen to be a frighteningly lethal? That's got some longevity to it.

Posted by: Bira Apr 19 2011, 08:42 PM

That doesn't sound very fun - neither the "arms race" part, nor the one where the GM feels the need to keep the characters "in line". What's the problem with switching the type of story that happens in the campaign when characters grow too big for the gutter?

Posted by: Scyldemort Apr 19 2011, 08:47 PM

This.

If you want a street level game with low power levels, start at 300 BP and don't ever give out more than 4 karma per session.

Posted by: Lugburz Apr 19 2011, 09:26 PM

Couldn't agree more. We've had a campaign going for a while which really hit critical mass a while back with compelling characters and their interaction with each other. Playing a physical adept in that one and have collected just over 300 karma- probably helps that we're awarded no more than 4 per session, not counting the completion-of-objective awards at the ends of our very long campaigns. Could easily spend the next 100+ karma on magic, but that sounds like the easy way out, even if I am only tossing a base 12 dice to kick ghosts in their spooky faces. (Not counting attribute boost, edge, and the like.) The character's already nicely diversified, but there's never a wrong reason to diversify more. Someone mentioned something about knowledge skills a while back. Once again, I heartily agree. Knowledge skills are great. And if your GM is smart, you'll be using them frequently in-game.

Now if only I would stop being such a newbie GM and remember to call on my players' knowledge skills more often.

Posted by: Irion Apr 19 2011, 10:59 PM

Well, it depends on. I guess with around 2000 Karma you wild end up asking yourselve what you are doing, since increasing anything does not really change your character.
What is the point getting magic from 14 to 15?
Getting the 100. spell?

Mundane chars will run out of options earlyer.

Posted by: Doc Byte Apr 19 2011, 11:55 PM

A character becomes unplayable when you're losing interest in him. In most cases this won't happen because of to much karma. My one and only SR character for the last 8 years has no dice pool above 14. I've spend easily 100+ of his 480 karma points on knowledge skills. - Okay, he's a cyber-mage with essence 2 and magic 5, but technically speaking he's spend 168 karma points to much, if I'd have to raise the attributes with x5. I don't think this character will become unplayable anytime soon.

Posted by: Glyph Apr 20 2011, 02:47 AM

Really? Because actually, the hyper-specialist should improve faster. He's raising stuff from 1 to 2, while the other guy is trying to raise them from 4 to 6.


I don't think characters becoming unplayable is the amount of karma, per se, but how adaptable the players, and the campaign, are to the changes. You have too much karma when instead of looking for new challenges, you are just rolling more dice to kill the same things.

Posted by: Thanee Apr 20 2011, 01:29 PM

At 537 Karma, precisely.

No, really, it depends on so many factors, Karma is one of the least important of those.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 20 2011, 01:50 PM

I was just asking, because i now reached 130 karma and after a little forecast i think i will reach maximum attributes (only the needed ones) and skills in another 200 karma. I am not going to raise attributes the normal way, so i save a lot of karma by anchoring "increased attributes" spells. With my decent little rating 6 spell-locks (sustaining focus) i gain access to a lot of "mundane" skills that might be needed at some time (analyze device spell) and i am not planning to initiate higher than level 5. Now i am at level 2 and with level 5 i have access to most of the metatechniques i want. My main-skills (conjuring, spellcasting, spelldefense) are already on softmax and powerfoci etc. are no option for my character. This means i will need karma for initation, raise of the magic attribute (8-9) and some more spells plus the costs for anchoring. After this stage, i will run around with body 9, charisma 12, reaction 9, magic 9, something around 20 dices for dodging and so on….the GM would need really bad guys to scare me off while the other characters wouldn´t be half as far as i am in direct comparison. Like i was going to say as we played Earthdawn and Das schwarze Auge ages ago „you can´t kill a dragon every day“….

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 20 2011, 02:51 PM

I said "to become average" not "to improve." To have an average (3) Charisma the guy who dumped it to 1 has to pay 25 karma. The guy who started with a 2 only pays 15. The true generalist who started at 3 is already there.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 20 2011, 02:52 PM

If there's such a thing as "only the needed attributes" in a campaign, the GM is doing it wrong IMO.

Posted by: Cheops Apr 20 2011, 03:01 PM

Or the players are just doing it very very right and are always able to plan such that the best asset for any particular task is always the one on the scene. You can't always blame the GM -- especially in well played groups, as most tend to be by session 13 (~137 karma). This is especially true in "basic" Shadowrun where you are mostly taking mercenary contracts to infiltrate facilities and commit theft/kidnapping/sabotage. Plus it sounds like he is using magic spells to increase the other attributes and cover his bases (needed = ones that are vital if his anchored spell is dispelled).

Again, as a player you should, unless playing a raving psycho/socio-path, hit a point where your character says "I'm too old for this shit!" Then it is up to you to decide if he'll keep doing that shit or finally turn in his badge.

Posted by: Prime Mover Apr 20 2011, 03:04 PM

I like the option of swapping out karma for cash and vice versa. This lets awakened and non awakened to scale up together.

As for the question. I don't think you can set a karma "ceiling". As mentioned here already, once the GM and/or the players can no longer feel/be challenged it's time to consider retirement.

That having been said I have several players from first edition an adept and a mage respectively that still make an appearance from time to time. They actually complain the conversion to 4th edition toned them down some. While still extremely competent I've been able to them challenged. Just have to be able to run smart and scale encounters on the fly.

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 20 2011, 03:14 PM

There are definitely attributes that are vital for your character class and some that aren´t. So there is neither something wrong with the GM nor with the players. For a charisma-tradition mage, needed attributes are the mentioned ones (i think you have enough background knowledge to know why) while things like strenght, logic etc. are neglectable. After you reached level 5 in initiation (incl. masking) your spells a likely to be dispelled anymore, especially not all of them. Also you don´t deal with BC anymore, because the metatechniques that are prerequisite for an initiate at this powerlevel are cleansing/filtering. After this point, there is nothing left that would be absolutely needed. Of course, like i said, you can go powergaming-extreme and max. everything, no matter if needed or not, but it makes no sense anymore. I thought this point of "it makes no sense to play/run anymore" would be far, far away, but 200 karma is not that much i have to say. So the end is near.^^

Posted by: Doc Byte Apr 20 2011, 04:48 PM

If your GM plays SR like a Django movie he might run out of challenges. If the NPCs start thinking and use some tactics, even a street gang will be dangerous on their home ground. - And never forget, one sole sniper can kill a 2.000 karma character just as well as any 20 karma one!

Btw, if your totally maxing out your character, you shouldn't be surprised when the system starts falling apart.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Apr 20 2011, 08:20 PM

+1

Being lethal is not the problem in shadowrun. Gangers can be just as lethal as a corp cyborg....All I need is just a compelling story, and a compelling reason to continue running. Sometimes the story requires the PC's to retire prematurely though.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 08:31 PM

@Doc Byte

Sorry, but this is wrong. At least for any "mages" and "adepts". (I mean how to even see a freaking Magic 15 pixie?)

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 20 2011, 08:41 PM

Ultrasound.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 08:44 PM

Radar...

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 09:49 PM

How does this help against Concealment?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 10:21 PM

Well, I have a character with 20 Dice for Perception (which is hardly maxed)... How is Concealment going to help against that? I still have at least 5 DICE in your Pixie with Magic 15 Scenario... And the character had that from the beginning, which your Pixie did not.

Magical Invisibility does not work against Radar. It is arguable that Concealment works against it.

Posted by: Irion Apr 20 2011, 10:45 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So you get 5 dices for my pixie wearing a Chameleon Suit.
And we can agree to a pixie beeing small. So have fun getting those three hits with 5 dices. (Sorry, my fault with one dice)

Well, I do not see why. Concealment works against any form of perception, so...


About "at least" I do not know. Depends on how you are reading the rules I guess. (And about how the character is build)

My point here was, that with enough Karma Magic is adding up to rediculus dice pools.

Posted by: Doc Byte Apr 20 2011, 11:54 PM

The point of a sniper is, you don't know he's there (Even the extended 'detect enemy' spell won't work on a sniper about half a mile away below Magic 7 and massive overcasting.) and unless you're extremely paranoid you won't be cloaked all the time. Heck, if the sniper teams up with an apt hacker, he's shooting the poor mage right through the wall by aiming at the AR marker the hacker created based on the location of the mage's comlink.


€dit: I love combat drones with olfactory sensors. The machine doesn't care if it sees or smells the target. Back it up with a wi-fi scanner and have fun at GM'ing. And don't forget the smoke projector filled with Neurostun. Works great with a 'dead drone' trigger.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 02:28 AM

Again... The character started with 20 Dice, out of Character generation. Give the character the same amount of Karma your Ludicrous Pixie Received to get to Magic 15, and I am absolutely positive that the character will see that pixie with plenty of dice to spare. Keep on believeing otherwise, though. You really are hilarious sometimes, you know that?

Posted by: Irion Apr 21 2011, 08:24 AM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
If he has no magic I would highly question that. (At least if you do not add the bonus dices from visual, acustical etc.l together.)

Lets see:
You get Perceptive 2, Attention Coprocessor (Rating 1–3), Reception Enhancer (Rating 1–3) , Synch (1), Limbic Nanites (Rating 1–3),Qualia(+1),Oracle reality amplifier +2
3+3+1+3+1+2=17 dices
Now you get bonus dices depending on what kind of perception it is (visual, acustical etc) this gets up to 6 for taste and smell, audio and visual is about +3 I suppose.
Since you got to see your target we stay with +3.
So now we have 13 dices.
Lets use a standart human for starters with Intuition 6(9). Add to that metagenetic improvement, improved attribute and genetic optimization and you end up with
9(13). The skill gets as high as 7+2=9
So we end up with 17+3+9+9(since I do not know of any ware increasing intuition)= 38
Then there are some drugs increasing intuition or perception:
Betel +1(Per), Buzz+1 (int). Trance +1(int), Nitro +2(per), Novacoke +1 (Per), Psyche +1 (int),Sideways +1 (per), Inspiration +1 (intuition)
This adds up to an other +9. (I am not aware of any intuition increasing ware)

So you get a max dicepool around 47. (And the drug coctail will probably kill you)

Yeah, you may double your dice pool. But I did not even get started on the stuff you may do to hide.
(And you have to consider this character would be highly specialized (while haing limited essence). While Magic 15 is useable for a lot of other stuff.
Camouflage alone would reduce your pool big time (easy up to 15 minus your hits on counterspelling not to mention your attack pool gets dropped by the same amount)
And if we start to realy go "by the rules" there is nothin stopping me from increasing the number of hits with edge.
Not to mention you would need line of sight first.

The karma was 2000 as said in the post I replied to.

And I am not sure about the threshold for searching one special pixie in a city. Thats much worse than a needle in haystack

So yes you might be able to build a mudane char who is able to spot said pixie mage(or any mage with concealment this high) under ideal circumstances.
But you have to consider, that the mage will probably be aware of you much sooner.
(I mean what do you expect if you are talking about amounts of Karma beyond ridiculous?)

I mean the pixie is still not over the top. Lets think about a free spirit for a moment.
He would probably go up to Force 13, Edge 12 having 8 increase attributes spells (Force 13) quickend (since he is not allowed to use foci)
leaving him with:
13 Points of Concealment(and most of the other "good deals") and about 15+ in every attribute.
At some point, the rules do just break. There is no game with a "buying" system where you can give unlimited XP without breaking it at some point.
@Doc Byte

Well, you said 2000 Karma.
So even a quickend Force 15 spell won't be a problem. Even masking would apply
This would give me a range of:
Force x Magic x 10 meters = 2250 meters. (Nice)
(Magic 1 to 15= 595 Karma. 15 Initiations: rough about 311.
Lets round it up and say half the Karma.
I guess 300 Karma would do enough for the attributes (close to any attribute to 6). An other 330 Karma for the skills. (Thats 3 skill groups from 0 to 6)
Well lets say I would stay at about 400 Karma left now.
Lets buy a little Force 10 Powerfocus for 80 Karma.
A ally spirit Force 12 for 96 Karma. (lets give him some skills 5 for 25 Karma and some spells 10 for 30 Karma well and some other forms 6 Karma for 3)
Sustaining foci for a total of Force 50 for 100 Karma.
Still around 70 Karma left, so lets take 14 additional spells. (Assuming we started with at least 6)
This is no optimized build it is just an approximation of what a mage with 2000 Karma could look like.


Yeah. And hope you are shooting the right one. (And it would still be blind fire, the mage woud still get cover.)

Yeah, but the modifier do.

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 21 2011, 09:49 AM

Did this topic change from "when is a player unplayable" to "can i shoot mighty mages"? In this case you could drop a plane on him, tell a dragon that he tells stories of kicking dragon-butts all the time etc....everybody is killable, it is just more difficult the mightier he gets. I think we all know that already...^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 01:16 PM

Pretty Much... I mean really. I am not sure how we went from "When is a character Unplayable?" to "Look how ludicrous of a character I can make to break the system." We are WAY offf topic here.

Back on Topic. I have to agree with whomever it was who said that it ends when it is no longer interesting, for the player or the GM. For me, I tend to cycle through characters a lot, because I have SO MANY ideas I want to play with. Currently have about 40 character ideas in the wings that I have yet to play with. I do have my character preferences, though.

Radamanthas/Jenks: Mystic Adept of Black Magic Tradition. Manipulation Specialist. 190 Karma (4th Edition) - Currently Playing
Nexus: Human Cyberlogician. 318 Karma. (4th Edition) - In the Wings, Semi-Retired.
Cain: Human Physical Adept Freelance Intelligence Operative, Works for the highest bidder. 387 Karma. (Started in 2nd Edition)
Spikes: Troll Ex-Ganger Physical Adept. 187 Karma (Started in 3rd Edition)
El Leon de Acero: Human Full Borg Conversion, Enforcer for the Cartels in Bogota. 122 Karma (4th Edition)
Kawai Aki no Kami: Oni Ninja Adept, Last survivor of the Iga Clan. 118 Karma. (4th Edition)

Have many others, some from 2nd, some from 3rd. Most are from 4th.
My only 1st Edition Character I played I retired fairly early.
Never enough games to play in.

Posted by: Irion Apr 21 2011, 02:36 PM

As a matter of fact we are trying to establish if it can be said that with X Karma a Character starts to break.
It seem like awakend characters can go a long way.
This guy:

Would, I guess, have around 1000 Karma. So I guess this seems to be still ok.

So lets get a look at a mundane char.
Every attribute from 1 to 6 costs: 100 Karma.
Lets take the karma generation, because it makes things easier to calculate.

You could sink 930 Karma at max in the attributes of a human. If you consider that around 300 Karma were spent while generation you end up with 630 Karma.
A skill to 6 cost 44 Karma.
There are around 60 mundane skills in the book, thats another 2640 possible Karma. (35 skills are in 10 Skill groups so if you use them you end up with 2200 Karma)
Then you got some negative qualities to buy of and martial arts and other stuff.
But I guess that would not come above 1000 Karma.

Then there are languages and knowledgeskills worth thousands of Karma (or much less if you are using the right ware)
So lets just leave them up front, because most of them are not in the book.
So the "hard" skills end up to about 4200 Karma.


So I am just guessing but at around 5000 Karma you will run out of things to but Karma into.
And I guess with 6000 Karma you run out of space to write your non active skills down. So the character is unplayable.
Of course you could argue how much charachter a sheet with 6s and 5s in most of the skills is.

I guess this is the question you should really be asking: What makes a sheet of paper a character to play with and what destroys this immersion.
I guess this depends on who you ask. There are some people thinking, that a character should always have clear strenghts and clear weaknesses.
So the grim Sam who is good at shooting stuff would never dare to get the social skillgroup higher than 1.
It would also be vital, that everybody can see, that he is better with rifles than pistols, but a real genius with heavy weapons.
He is also good in hand to hand but prefers to shoot things. He can handle knifes but prefers to fight bare handed.

The clearer the picture of the character is getting, the harded it is to spend unlimited amount of Karma.
So heavy weapons would be 6. Rifles 5 and Pistols and Automatics 4.
Hand to Hand combat around 4, melee 3.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 03:04 PM

You can never run out of Knowledge SKills, which you indicated...
Languages are nigh Endless...
Nor will you ever likely run out of Artisan Skills (an Active Skill, so good Karma Sink for the Artistically inclined)...

Some Qualities are Open Ended... So the Hundreds, if not thousands of variations on Marital Arts could net you a whole lot of expenditures. Assuming you had a GM anal enough to generate the statistics for each of them. Again, already mentioned.

Lots of stuff to spend Karma on, for sure. The question is not a Karma Based one I do not think. At least, not at its core. Karma Could definitely be a determining factor in the decision, to be sure.

For me, it is generally not about Karma, it is about the Story. Do I have any more story to tell with this character? That is where I look at it. That is not to say that I do not ever revisit a character I have put aside. Sometimes, Stories come and go for a character. When I get a new idea for a new story, I revisit the character involved. I really do wish I was a better writer than I am, becuase I have a thousand stories about a hundred characters, percolating in my brain. It would really be nice to get them out. Alas, My journalism skills are a tad bit lacking for that. Likely because I do not practice them like I should.

Anyways...

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 21 2011, 03:36 PM

Per the 15th edition of Ethnologue: Languages of the World there are 6,912 languages currently spoken.* 497 of which are expected to be extinct in the next 60 years.

*At least, that have been cataloged in any meaningful fashion. There's an estimate for up to 3000 more that exist that are just "unknown" (by which we mean unknown outside the pool of speakers and their local area).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 03:45 PM

And lets not forget about the dead languages...

At 22 karma to get a language to 6, that would be.... Lets see... 152,064 Karma for Languages Alone. Throw in the other 3000 languages that are listed as unknown... you get an additional 66,000 Karma... Are Dead languages Counted in the Unknown?

Hmmm... I need to go on more Runs...

Posted by: toturi Apr 21 2011, 03:48 PM

I am not too sure about that. I recall doing the math some time last year on a related question (Mr Perceptive vs Ms Pixie-Stealth), the more karma both sides get, the larger the gap between the Perceptive character has to overcome.

There are about the same number of dice adders as there are dice subtractors but considering that the pixie simply increases Magic without actual need to use the magic actively (Mr Perceptive actually has to spend power points to buy Perception, pixie just has better Concealment by virtue of Magic), Perception dice is slightly behind.

Sure, if the pixie is not actively using a Stealth skill and you are rolling against straight Thresholds, you could detect the pixie. But if the pixie is going active Stealth Group skill, I'd bet on the pixie, more so the more karma you pump into both characters.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 03:56 PM

Lets not forget that you can negate penalties as well. No all bonuses add Dice. I believe that Irion got to a total of about 47 DICE to throw. Which does not count anything that will negate penalties outright, I do not believe. With just the -15 Concealment that was hypothesized, that still leaves more than enough Dice (32 to be exact) to account for most thresholds. As well, technology completely ignores some aspects of magic. Radar completely Ignores Invisibility. WHY? Because you will still cause a Radar Return. I would argue that Concealment works the same way. You still get a Radar Return, because you are STILL THERE. Also, Concealment does not hide your Signal Rating. SO you can EASILY be detected through that. If it is on, of course.

Anyways. It is an interesting Thought experiment, but has no relevance in a game. At least, not in any game that I have played. When is the last time you played a 2000 Karma Character Draco18s?

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 21 2011, 04:00 PM

Dead languages are above and beyond that. And I'd (personally) say that the more obscure a language is, the more karma needs to be spent to learn it.

I mean, really, if a language is spoken by three individuals on a remote island of Indonesia,* you can't just walk downtown or hit up Google for a language course.

*There were four, until the recent flooding.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 21 2011, 04:02 PM

I believe you are arguing with the wrong person, there.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 21 2011, 04:07 PM

Sorry guys, my hacker just dropped 370 Thor shots on the city both the mage and the sniper were doing their "now you see me, now you don't" dance in.

Posted by: Irion Apr 21 2011, 04:13 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Yeah, if you just stuck all the DV boni together you end up punshing harder than an assault cannon. (+ 8 alone from the martial arts)

So yeah you could generate additional martial arts. But would it make things better?
(Run for your life he put away the katana!)

Btw: Thanks to Learning Stimulus (Rating up to 3) knowledge and and language skills cost only 5 Karma for 0 to 6. (And just two up to 3)

But thanks for showing me an other way to make a very stupid character.

@James McMurray
Yeah there is nothing better than beeing searched for several millions counts of murder.
(And how much damage does a thor shot actually do?)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 04:20 PM

No argument intended... Was looking for another perspective. Am I one of the only ones not playing in such an epic game?

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 21 2011, 04:21 PM

Ahh, I see.
No, I've never played a game with that much Karma.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 04:23 PM

DV Bonuses cap at +3 from Martial Arts; Stated directly in the rules.

Yeah, Learning Stimulus is Awesome. But each level will still cost a minimum of 1. ANd your first level costs full Price, since it only applies to skills you already have.

No problems... There is no lack of things to spend Karma on, dependant upon how "Skilled" you want a character to be.

Posted by: sabs Apr 21 2011, 04:28 PM

Learning Stimulas + Linguist

You get the first rank of any language for free

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 04:33 PM

There you go... Actually have that for a character... it is a great combination.

Posted by: Irion Apr 21 2011, 04:34 PM

Can't find it.


Can't find it.

I know. Thats why the first level cost 2 Karma. (I just said 3, because everyone pays 2 Karma for the first level, and so it would not have been awesome.


Well, I guess thats true.
But it gets difficult if you want him to have good and not so good skills.
If he is best with Rifles (and rifle is 6) than everything else has to be 5 or lower.

Posted by: sabs Apr 21 2011, 04:35 PM

I have linguist+mnemonic enhancer+something else.

I get the first language for free, and +4 to all my linguistic rolls.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 05:01 PM

Can't complain about that...

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 21 2011, 05:01 PM

When the thread degrades to "nuh-uh, my guy is better because <insert cherry picked scenario here>" I get to cherry pick my own scenarios too, and in mine I left no trace. Even if I did, I still win the "whose imaginary testicles are bigger" battle before the corporate court comes after me.



I believe the answer is "enough." IIRC it's in WAR!, but I don't have it handy. If that's not enough, I nuked instead (and bought the GM dinner so he'd let it go off).

Basically, arguments like this are pointless exercises in cherry picking scenarios and ego one-ups-manship. Eventually the GM wins by telling everyone to shut up and dropping anti-cty weaponry on them to make sure it happens. That is, if these scenarios ever came up in a real game, which they don't.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2011, 06:05 PM

It is in the Errata for Arsenal. Yes, they have an Errata for Arsenal.



You could always go to a 7, at least in one skill. Legendary is hard to beat.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 21 2011, 06:10 PM

I think it's "if you're within 200m: dead. Beyond 200m it has a base value of (130?) -1 DV/100m"

Posted by: toturi Apr 22 2011, 12:15 AM

I believe that Concealment does not hide your commlink's Signal Rating, you'd have a Signal Rating if you were the commlink.

I do think that Concealment hides from Radar - so long as it uses the Perception skill, Concealment works against that. While Radar ignores Improved Invis which only affects vision, it would not and should not ignore a similar multi-sensory Illusion spell.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 02:55 AM

Thank You...



Not sure that I would agree here. Again, YOU ARE STILL there... therfore you have a radar reflection. That is one of the reasons that Invisibility does not work, because of the Radar Reflection. Could you design a Spell to be invisible to Radar? Sure, but one does not exist yet in canon, as far as I can remember.

Posted by: Irion Apr 22 2011, 03:01 AM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Same is true for light, sound, smell, etc. etc.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 03:02 AM

And yet, that Invisibility does not work against Radar, now does it? Because Light is not Radar Waves... Duh...
Nor does it work against Sound, Smell, or anything else...

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 22 2011, 03:34 AM

Invisibility != Concealment

Invisibility does not work against radar because it specifically states that it works against visual senses and radar ain't one of 'em.

Concealment applies a penalty to all Perception rolls. If the radar is using Perception, it is affected. A house rule certainly isn't unwarranted. Concelament as written is very powerful, too powerful for some campaigns. But the RAW is very clear.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 03:53 AM

I get it, Really, I do...

Concealment is TOO powerful for Most if not ALL games when your average Mage has a Magic of 15+ (That stupidly epic 2000 Karma Game mentioned somewhere above comes to mind).

In Sane games, it is not so bad. Concealment is never really a problem in any game I have played. I still have issues with it, however, because purely mechanical devices should not be affected by it, much like the aforementioned Radar. High Powerd Mage Magic does not work against it, why should Pixie Magic do so?

Additionally, The way it is worded seems to imply that it is no good unless the user is actively being stealthy. Your Mileage may Vary, of course.

Anyways.

Posted by: toturi Apr 22 2011, 04:14 AM

High powered mage magic should, when appropriate (multisensory spell, normal Concealment), work against it, so why should pixie magic not do so?

Posted by: Irion Apr 22 2011, 07:52 AM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Silent does not work against visiual perception. So invisibility should not work against visiual perception.


Or a camera or a microphone.


With a chamelion suite and magic 6 it just adds up to 10 dices. (And in a "normal" game not everyone is going to have around 20 dices for perception)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 12:54 PM

By Canon, it does not, as there is no spell that does so. You could, of course, add one in for that purpose. Concealment IS the Pixie magic to which I referred.

It's just a pet peeve of mine, that's all...

Anyways...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 12:56 PM

It is so stupidly easy to get a high Perception Dice Pool that I often have to consiously work to not go that route.
As for the reference to my character, it made sense, in that normal game, to have such a high dice pool. A Cyberlogician is nothing but observant.

Posted by: toturi Apr 22 2011, 01:44 PM

By canon, there is no multisensory Illusion spell that does what Imp Invis does for vision based Perception, yes. But by canon also, Concealment does work against radar, as long as the skill being used is Perception. Concealment isn't a multisensory version of Improved Invis, just because Improved Invis doesn't work against radar and no canon spell fulfills this specific function doesn't mean that Concealment doesn't work against radar.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 02:57 PM

I agree with what you wrote. I disagree with the rationale for it however. Besides, Drones do not roll perception, they roll a Sensor Check which is Pilot + Sensor. So Purely Mechanical Devices should not be fooled by Concealment. Which is what I said earlier.

Posted by: Irion Apr 22 2011, 03:05 PM

I would not go down that road. I guess if you follow through to the and drones wouldn't be able to see anything. (Because to see something you have to make a Perception test, a Perception test ist defined by having perception as part of the dice pool (your axiom), drones do not have perception so they don't see anything.)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 03:14 PM

Obviously, Common Sense is not. There is Perception, and then there is perception. Drones do not have the Skill, but they can still perceive. They just use different abilities. So your argument fails, since teh books say to use Pilot + Sensor to make that roll, not Perception + Sensor (which is what a Rigger would use if HE was perceiving). Ergo, Since Concealment only applies to Perception Rolls (The Skill), Machines are immune to it. Pretty simple really.

Do I buy that line of reaasoning? Maybe. It makes a good argument, and brings Concealment into line with the rest of the magic system. Afterall, even Ruthenium Polymers and Sneak Suits, which Concealment is magically mimicing, can be seen with Radar.

Posted by: Irion Apr 22 2011, 03:46 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
My argument was meant to fail. Out of the same reason yours fails. You do not need perception to make a perception test.

Well, radar is something I dislike a bit anyway because there are no visibility rules. (So it is not even said a pixie can be picked up with rader)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 03:53 PM

I disagree. Concealment only subtracts from Perception Tests (Note the Capitalization). It Does not subtract from Sensor Tests.

Sorry that you dislike them, but why would they not? They are corporeal. Therefore they have a Radar Return. Thus they can be seen.

Posted by: Doc Chase Apr 22 2011, 04:10 PM

I don't know about anyone else, but the majority of my characters are unplayable out of chargen.

Posted by: Irion Apr 22 2011, 04:23 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well radar ain't radar. Different radars have totally different properties.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 04:40 PM

Irrelevant. Per the game, they work. Don't really care about yhte differing vagaries of the differing Radar Systems.
And we both know we are discussing Ultra-Wide band Radar, and the Vehicle Radar.

Posted by: Irion Apr 22 2011, 05:10 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, you have to at some point.
Is it possible to tell female from male? Is it possible to tell strong from fat? Is it possible to tell human from orc? Is it possible to tell pidgeon from pixie. I would go with no to every question. But how is it supposed to be?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2011, 09:53 PM

Does not reallly matter. What matters is that I can now see you, when my eyes tell me nothing is there. Begin the saturation bombing...

Posted by: Irion Apr 23 2011, 11:48 AM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

So you start bombing smog. Nicce. Well, I guess lone Star will take care of you...
(Now getting the point why it is important to know how the radar works and what you see?)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 23 2011, 02:05 PM

You are making an assumption here that is not warranted. I am not a moron. I understand that ground clutter is an artifact that Radar has to deal with (Which is something my characters use to their advantage). I also know that MOST forms of radar do not care about mist (I am not using Weather Radar here) or smog (while Chaff is another story). Please do not assume that I am uneducated.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 23 2011, 02:09 PM

Never assume anyone on DumpShock is uneducated about anything. We have a really strange group of skills and knowledge sets.

And a number of posters are current/former military who might know one HELL of a lot about radar!

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 23 2011, 03:18 PM

Off-topic point of curiosity:
My late grandfather helped build AWACS.
And apparently so did one of my professors (although they never met each other, as they were working on different sides of the project).

Posted by: Bigity Apr 23 2011, 03:39 PM

I had a statistics professor at a base whose job when he was in the Army was to calculate how many people different nuke strikes would take out.


Talk about a freaking depressing job.

Posted by: toturi Apr 23 2011, 04:40 PM

If your eyes tell you nothing is there, then therefore you cannot now see me.

Your instruments (if using radar as a sensor) tell you something is supposed to be there.

Posted by: Irion Apr 23 2011, 07:05 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

As a matter of fact the Frequency Diversity Radar, used for weather radars, would have a better chance to destinguish between mist and a pixie compared to "normal" radar.

Bio radar works with the doppler effect. (It is used for detecting victims of avalanches.
This effect is manly known from the weather forcast, because it is manly used in (you guessed it) weather radars.
You need a low frequenzy to get though objects and to "not kill the person you are looking for".
A scan takes several seconds to scan the area in the avalanche.

So I guss the poor pixie would be cooked, before you could shoot her. (This to the realism part)

(Oberating with a THz frequenzy and having a range of 200m in a city.)


I personaly don't give a crap if the "radar" in shadowrun works just like the Inertial damper in Star Treck. Put I would like to know how they are supposed to work.
Do I get my update realtime or do it update ever 10 sec. or even every min.
Does it just show walls and things it believes to be "alive" as dots?
How big do I have to be to be seen as a "alive dot"?
You could argue, that the pixie does not show up on the rader if she is more than 10 m away or even just behind a thin wall or she does not show up at all. (Or any other possibility)

(Ah, but in one instance the rules for the radar are clear. Concealment does help.)

Posted by: CanRay Apr 23 2011, 07:58 PM

Can I use it to detect the Insect Flesh Forms as they're thirty metres away... Twenty metres away... Ten metres away...

"They'd be in the slotting room!"

FIVE METRES AWAY!

"They're in the walls!!! OPEN FIRE!!!"

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 25 2011, 11:26 AM

To go back to topic: the answer is "you don´t need one single point of karma before your character becomes unplayable". I created a new character 2 weeks ago (fomori-changeling with astral hazing, MBW System 2) and gave the character sheet to the GM for approvement. After approval I started playing yesterday and during Ghost Cartels he realized that i (again) created a very good character that outclassed all the other players. Some minutes ago he called me and started an argue because i alway create high-power-chars....

I didn´t read the adventure, but according to the way he gamed, it seems that this situation with the possession spirit at the last third of the adventure is not about to be solved by the players. My char. stepped into the room and beat the spirits ass and this seems to be the main reason for him to become angry. But i really don´t know what i made wrong? This was basically THE situation my char. was made for. To beat spirits asses... In every other situation this char. is nigh unplayable because he only has 3 skills at all. I also don´t know how to create loser-characters that might please him. He also told me that he has problems with my magical character that was really poorly build and now, after 130 karma, starts to outclass the team soon. Maybe i am too stubborn, maybe i don´t get the point, but a RPG is IMHO about 2 things:

1) playing your character and having fun
2) improving your character

Our GM seems to dislike point 2, so what should i do? Decline karma? Should we disallow magic in our games? Surge, high-quality cyber and bio like MBW´s? If we do that, what is left? What can i do if he has problems with 13 dices in close combat but no problems with 20 dices in automatics? Should i start letting the GM create my chars and he decides what i may rise and what not?

It would be great to hear your comments.

Posted by: toturi Apr 25 2011, 11:59 AM

Some GMs simply cannot think outside the scenario they have been given or they are unwilling to do so, for whatever reasons. When this happens, I have seen one of 2 things happen: The good GM takes it like a man (not that I am disparaging women, but it is simply a saying where I come from), the bad GM takes it like an insult.

Personally I dislike straying from the published adventure when I am running a published adventure. If I do allow certain character options, then I brace myself when I inevitably(rarely now, but still inevitable) miss something. But I try to accept that as the cost of playing a published adventure; sometime someone has a character that's a silver bullet and as long as the players are having fun, then it doesn't really matter that I am not really enjoying myself as much.

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 25 2011, 12:32 PM

This might be the difference between you and our GM. I really don´t want to destroy the fun for all the other players, but i really don´t know what i can do. If i go on like that, the GM resigns to game anymore (because he is a sissy ) and the other players don´t care about the run as long as they can play. So either the GM resigns or i do.^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 12:52 PM

It really Sucks to be in that position. Been there a time or two. Ended up just resigning the game and moving on to something else.

Posted by: Irion Apr 25 2011, 01:07 PM

@Machiavelli
Your GM is not a evil enough. If I would only see a Char with astral Hazing and withoug Astral vision, I would be laughing my ass off.
This guy would be in a prision cell faster than you could be saying MOVE BY WIRE SYSTEM.

Yes, of course. If a GM decides to ignore all the drawbacks of a negativ quality, well...

Astral Hazing is like pinning a big astral shield on your forehead screaming BAD BOY.

Posted by: Mongoose Apr 25 2011, 02:43 PM

Have you considered creating an ally spirit? (/action listens for huge vacuuming noise as karma points vanish)



For it to be a fair comparison, you also have to improve all characters in the areas the specialist excels in to match his ability. If you start with 1 charisma and 6 body, its a easier (less karma) to go to 3/6 than if you started with 3 charisma and 4 body

Posted by: Machiavelli Apr 25 2011, 04:06 PM

I think this will be the result of this situation. If i stay in this group, the GM will possibly resign GM´ing which would cancel the fun for the other players. So i better leave him into his tiny little world and check out for another group (or stop playing). Somtimes things come to a natural end.


The GM has a problem with Magic IMHO and the power that comes with it. Creating an ally spirit will cause 2 reactions:

1) the GM first will allow the ally and after one session or two, he realizes that it is a big advantage. Then...
2) the spirit will be destroyed and i loose the karma (and the magic point i think).