Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Naturally Wired
Posted by: Bushw4cker Apr 20 2011, 04:24 PM
Thoughts Comments or Suggestions...
Thanks )
Naturally Wired
Cost: 20BP
The Naturally Wired quality allows an unaugmented
character to react with astonishing speed. This quality granting
her a +1 Initiative Pass, which is not cumulative
with any other Reaction or Initiative enhancement, be it technological
or magical.
Posted by: streetangelj Apr 20 2011, 04:34 PM
What about Lightning Reflexes (15 BP; RC98)? I think it's reasonable to combine edges; and was thining of suggesting increaing cost, but then that would be normally impossible; plus its probably still cheaper to use magic/tech instead.
Posted by: fazzamar Apr 20 2011, 05:04 PM
I like it. I would probably allow it in my game.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 20 2011, 05:32 PM
I can't see it. Remember you can always spend Edge for an extra IP. I don't see how that sort of speed would be sustainable or consistent. It makes sense that sometimes you're just 'on the ball' and happen to move quick but no one is always like that. Lightning Reflexes and Adrenaline Surge make sense but any other natural initiative enhancement makes sense to me.
Unless it was SURGE. That would work, definitely, several critters automatically get extra IPs, so the whole 'manimal' cross-breed thing would work.
As always, your vehicle may traverse a different distance.
Posted by: Bushw4cker Apr 20 2011, 05:50 PM
I think if this Quality was in a SR4 book no one would even think twice about it.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 06:06 PM
As in, they'd never waste 20 BP getting it, when they could just get +2 Edge instead?
Posted by: Epicedion Apr 20 2011, 06:18 PM
Yeah, I can't imagine anyone spending that many BP on it. Equivalent (actually superior) Wired Reflexes costs 2.2 BP, and magicians/adepts have better options.
I think a Technomancer would probably be the only character type to benefit from it, since they don't have very good options for bonus IPs, otherwise.
Posted by: James McMurray Apr 20 2011, 06:41 PM
I like it, but for 20BP I think it should stack with everything. It's a hefty chunk of your starting BP, can't be bought later without GM approval, and counts against any other positive qualities you'd have wanted to buy. There's already a max of 4 IPs for most situations, so there's less risk of it being abused.
Then again, I'd want to see what kind of crazy crap could be done with it before passing final judgment. But our current group has a 4 pass jaguar shifter, a 3 pass ork with 22 shooting dice, and had a trolldrake possession mage with crazy melee skills so I don't know what would make me say "no way." 
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 06:56 PM
If it stacks, it might actually be way too *good* for 20BP. Tricky.
In general, the nonstacking qualities are worthless (cat's eyes, hawkeye, etc.), because gear is such a big deal. But *stacking* qualities… people line up to get Metagenic Improvement and the like.
An IP is worth a lot, after all. For Magic/Resonance, users, part of that 20BP is saved by not having to compensate (at least 10BP). For others, the difference between Wires 2 and 3 is 2 Essence and 68kĄ (worse with higher grades); Synaptic Booster is 80kĄ per level.
Posted by: Epicedion Apr 20 2011, 07:15 PM
Well, 20 BP is worth 100,000 
, so I don't see it being abused too much there. For the same price you could get Wired Reflexes 3, and have your 4 IPs already (well, in character generation you'd have to also take Restricted Gear, but +3 Reaction/+3 IPs is slightly better than +1 IP). Even Synaptic Booster 1 is cheaper and better (since the Quality version doesn't give +1 Reaction).
Letting it stack with magic improvement could be tricky, since magic can be cheap, but it is a lot of BP.
This is not quite the same as Lightning Reflexes, since that comes out cheaper than just purchasing 2 points of Reaction, and seems to allow you to bypass the natural maximum, so those 15 BP are just full of bonuses.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 07:24 PM
You have to include the significant value of Essence, though. I agree that 20BP is a lot, of course. But maybe not too much. 
I'd *much* rather not take Restricted Gear + Wires 3, for example, just compared to this Quality + Wires 2. If 4 IPs is even the goal, where 3 tends to be plenty.
Look at it this way: would someone willingly take a Human+ race that cost 20? Depends on the character. If it's someone who needs to save 2 whole Essence, or who'd have to buy up their Magic/Resonance to compensate… (10-20BP right there).
Posted by: Epicedion Apr 20 2011, 07:33 PM
I'd *much* rather not take Restricted Gear + Wires 3, for example, just compared to this Quality + Wires 2. If 4 IPs is even the goal, where 3 tends to be plenty.Look at it this way: would someone willingly take a Human+ race that cost 20? Depends on the character. If it's someone who needs to save 2 whole Essence, or who'd have to buy up their Magic/Resonance to compensate… (10-20BP right there).
You could throw in a rule that says it's not compatible with Reaction Enhancers or Wired Reflexes, but would work with the more expensive Synaptic Booster. That would be a fair restriction, and serve to give it some flavor.
That would make it (equivalent) 260,000
to hit your 4 IPs, with 1 less Reaction than if you spent 240,000 on Synaptic Booster 3, at a saving of 0.5 Essence.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 07:51 PM
I have character concepts that would benefit from it.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 20 2011, 07:59 PM
Epicedion, *partial* stacking… good idea.
Your concepts are crazy, Tymeaus. 
I'm not prepared to claim that no one would ever want it, but I'll own up to a 95% rate.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 20 2011, 08:38 PM
Your concepts are crazy, Tymeaus.
I'm not prepared to claim that no one would ever want it, but I'll own up to a 95% rate.Heh... Okay, good enough then...
Posted by: Udoshi Apr 21 2011, 02:15 PM
A quality I'd actually like to see is one that removes the once a turn limit from the 'edge for ip' rule. It would make the unaugmented edgebunny a little bit more viable when the bullets start flying.
Possibly as an addon/shoehorn to adrenaline surge's rules.
Posted by: TheOOB Apr 22 2011, 07:57 AM
I don't like it in any version. I believe one of the hallmarks of the Shadowrun world is how unfair it is. You have a small percentage of the population born with supernatural abilities that mundanes can never hope to emulate, people who pay huge sums of cash for the ability to to augment their body for every physical advantage, and people who are willing to use dangerous and experiment drugs for a minor temporary boost.
That fact that in order to be an strong combatant you need magic, augmentation, or at least drugs I think is a strong point of the system, and any way of circumventing this really misses the point IMO. In short, every cheats in Shadowrun, and the fair players are dead. Whats the point of a dystopia if by being good enough and trying hard enough you can overcome the cheaters? That kind of stuff is for high fantasy.
/rant
Posted by: Udoshi Apr 23 2011, 04:27 AM
While I can agree with this on one level, as far as I've heard argued here and there - there used to be something similar in 3rd edition. In that, with the unpredictability and fickleness of initiative dice, and qualities/edges that let unaugmented people use edge for initiative, even a normal person could occasionally act two or three times.
Then along comes fourth, and makes it so you HAVE to be special(adept, magician, infected, a shitton of edge so you have enough to spend EVERY time bullets fly, etc) to get another pass.
Its kind of a disconnect, from one edition to another. I think a quality like this could do wonders to even up the danger level, because, well, whats good for the goose is good for the gander - you just NEVER KNOW if some badass wannabe ganger you're picking a fight with just happens to have an extra pass in his pocket.
And I kind of miss the Unaugmented PI archetype.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 04:35 AM
I'd rather just switch back to the variable IP system, but sure. I don't object to 'naturally wired' on thematic grounds, just on crunch/abuse potential (of a stacking version). The unstacking version, which I still say would be overpriced as a blessing and halfway to a curse (stuck at 2 IP forever, unless you rule that it can be 'overwritten' by better stuff), isn't objectionable for being *over*powered.
I don't think there's a 'right' answer. Lightning Reflexes and Adrenaline Surge were mentioned; they're both 15 BP, and pretty restrictive. I'd call them overpriced, though the Surge is pretty nifty (more so for slower people, inconveniently). This quality would *have* to be more expensive than both (20 BP, as the OP said), to be fair, but also nonstacking (to fit their precedent). The stacking version… the biggest problem is still awakened, I think. If it were 30 BP, that'd preclude all but plain adepts? *shrug* If it were 20 BP (30 BP for Awakened), that might fit, but it seems inelegant.
Posted by: Udoshi Apr 23 2011, 04:50 AM
At least in my printing of the RC, the master table at the back lists Adrenaline Surge as a -five- bp quality.
I think someone accidentally put a 1 in front of it for the printing, because it really IS overpriced.
As for the non-stacking version, thats exactly how the Vampire(all the race-specific vampire variants have it, but not ghouls) extra passes work. Just, you know, a bit more available to the average joe.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 04:56 AM
I also liked the idea of making it a SURGE quality, Cheetah Reflexes or whatever. Thematically, I mean; crunch-wise, it's worse for a *stacking* version, because it makes easy for Awakened to get it.
Can't imagine it being 5, Udoshi. Lightning Reflexes (15 BP) gives a measly +2 Reaction, incompatible with anything. (Sure, it's cheaper than 2 Reaction, but you spent all your Quality BP and can't combo it with anything. 
) Of course, a lot of the qualities are overpriced crap. For 5 BP, first in every combat sounds pretty solid.
Posted by: Udoshi Apr 23 2011, 05:19 AM
I've considered adrenaline surge on a hacker, actaully. When you trigger an alert, being able to -always- get the first shot in is a wonderful boon. Or, you know, log out.
Lightning reflexes is pretty bad, but it does have its uses - mostly on free spirits. It also shines a bit more in German Karmagen, where its a flat 30 karma for 2 reaction. If you're getting a reaction of 5-6, and don't have any better qualities, might as well get another point for the same price, right? Ditto for Hardcapping reaction in BP gen.
Posted by: Udoshi Apr 23 2011, 05:22 AM
augh doublepost.
Posted by: Epicedion Apr 23 2011, 01:46 PM
I don't think there's a 'right' answer. Lightning Reflexes and Adrenaline Surge were mentioned; they're both 15 BP, and pretty restrictive. I'd call them overpriced, though the Surge is pretty nifty (more so for slower people, inconveniently). This quality would *have* to be more expensive than both (20 BP, as the OP said), to be fair, but also nonstacking (to fit their precedent). The stacking version… the biggest problem is still awakened, I think. If it were 30 BP, that'd preclude all but plain adepts? *shrug* If it were 20 BP (30 BP for Awakened), that might fit, but it seems inelegant.
Two things, one for each paragraph:
1) I'm testing out my critical success rule for Initiative (4+ successes, +1 to the threshold for each extra IP you have from magic/augmentation -- beating this threshold on the Initiative test grants +1 IP for the turn). One of my players was in Europe for 3 weeks, so I haven't gotten to see it in action yet, but we should get a look this coming week. I'm considering taking away spending Edge for extra IPs and replacing it with just rolling Edge / Rule of Six on Initiative.
2) Lightning Reflexes is a pretty good deal for Magicians, who don't see Reaction bonuses very easily.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 03:40 PM
Magicians need that 15 BP of qualities for other things, and they can always use spells for that… which aren't compatible with the quality they wasted 15 BP on.
Posted by: Draco18s Apr 23 2011, 05:26 PM
Right.
I think the current idea is 20 BP for +1 IP that stacks with only bioware.
Posted by: Nifft Apr 23 2011, 05:51 PM
I think the current idea is 20 BP for +1 IP that stacks with only bioware.
That's an interesting combo. It means your PC can "hold out" for bioware, and that your bioware will be at least 80kĄ more effective than usual.
It's not the most efficient use of BPs, but it's very nice for certain "badass mundane" character concepts, and it would fit into my game with no problems.
I'd allow that.
Posted by: Glyph Apr 23 2011, 05:59 PM
I wouldn't. 160,000 for synaptic booster: 2 is not that expensive, and you wind up with a character with 4 IP's. I see no reason for a quality that stacks with other IP boosters when everything else doesn't. I wouldn't allow it for completely mundane, unaugmented characters, either, for reasons that TheOOB already went into. There are already two positive qualities out there, as well as the option to spend Edge. Regularly getting an extra IP should remain the sole province of the augmented and the awakened.
Posted by: Nifft Apr 23 2011, 06:08 PM
My current game is gang-level: wired reflexes are just barely available, but the 160kĄ for synaptic boosters 2 will be out of reach for quite some time.
If SB2 were within easy reach, I wouldn't allow it either.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 07:20 PM
Draco18s, that last bit was talking about Lightning Reflexes.
Posted by: TheOOB Apr 24 2011, 07:37 AM
Personally I don't like variable IP. An old PnP rule is that randomness always favors the NPCs, and Shadowrun is allready a game where it is easy enough to kill your players. The again, I never played any significant amount of 3rd edition, so I have no particular attachment to it.
In any case, I don't have a problem with a SURGE quality that produces an extra IP(I'd price it at 10 BP or so, but make it not stack with anything), I just don't like normal metahumans gaining extra IPs without 'ware, drugs, or other such means.
I also personally don't like making quality based IPs stack with initiative enhancers under any circumstances, as it can lead to abuse. If it stacked with bioware a mage could get 4 initiative passes without losing more than 1 point of essence easy(no need for high grade 'ware), and thats kinda silly.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 24 2011, 12:54 PM
What's wrong with favoring the NPCs? 
Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 01:24 PM
Well, under SR3 rules, everybody could lose initiative by being wounded . . It adds a layer of tactics i think . .
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 01:29 PM
How is that different to DR4? Wound modifiers subtract from Initiattive Tests.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 01:32 PM
What the hell is DR4?
Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 01:33 PM
Can you lose ini passes?
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 01:37 PM
Sure. Just fill your Condition Monitor.
Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 01:42 PM
The difference in Initiative in 3rd ed was that you had 1 to 4 dice that you rolled and then added your reaction to the shown result.
And after each round, 10 points were substracted and you could act as long as you had more than 1 point left.
So for example, if you had a reaction of, let us say 9 and 2 dice for rolling initiative, you could roll 2x6=12+9 and had a score of 21.
Which would net you 3 rounds of action. But as soon as you got damage, this would go down accordingly, dropping you down to 2 rounds of action.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 01:44 PM
O_O
Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 02:21 PM
?
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 02:25 PM
There you go, seducing me with your pre-SR4 rules again. And I'm still digesting First Edition Dice Pools....
Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 02:57 PM
*snickers* ^^
Posted by: Udoshi Apr 24 2011, 11:06 PM
Wasn't that the edition in which you had to roll for each bullet in a burst seperately?
It's not the most efficient use of BPs, but it's very nice for certain "badass mundane" character concepts, and it would fit into my game with no problems.
I'd allow that.
Also, 20BP is worth 100K Nuyen. So, on a whole, actually less efficient then sprinting for a synaptic booster 1.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 24 2011, 11:22 PM
It depends on the conditions. The character, the campaign, the typical cashflow, etc.
Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 11:26 PM
No?
Posted by: Glyph Apr 25 2011, 12:39 AM
Actually, yes, in first edition, you did roll separately for each bullet. Also, you had to fire at least one bullet per meter of distance between targets when "walking the fire" (sweeping from one target to another). First edition had a lot of quirky little rules like that.
Posted by: Bigity Apr 25 2011, 12:53 AM
A smartlink removed the need to walk your fire though.
Posted by: Glyph Apr 25 2011, 01:25 AM
Not quite. What it did was allow you to walk your fire past friendlies without hitting them.
Posted by: Bigity Apr 25 2011, 01:28 AM
Yup, now I remember.
Oh well the only thing I'm sure I remember was armor counted as automatic successes in damage resistance tests.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 02:25 AM
A mage can already get 4 IP's without Magic Loss. What is the big deal?
Posted by: Udoshi Apr 25 2011, 02:35 AM
Whats the BP cost on that, for comparison purposes, anyway?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 02:35 AM
It all depends. No need for sustaining is an issue. It alters the game balance, so you want to consider all the angles.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 02:36 AM
Um.... 5 BP for the Spell?
If you wanted to Sustain it with no penalty, another 4 BP at Character Generation, or 8 Karma to Bond in Play...
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 02:38 AM
And 16R, 40kĄ, unless you use the Edge cheat. So, 5 (spell) +4 (focus) + 8 (focus nuyen) + 5 precious Quality BP (restricted gear) = 22? Hmm.
Posted by: Seerow Apr 25 2011, 02:40 AM
5 BP - Restricted Gear (Force 4 sustaining Focus)
4 BP - Focus Binding
3 BP - Learn Spell (Increased Reflexes)
8 BP - 40,000 nuyen resources for force 4 sustaining focus
------
20 BP total for 4 initiative passes. Yes, you could throw in the cost of magic and spellcasting pool, but a magician should be raising those regardless, so I don't consider those.
vs:
32 BP - 160,000 nuyen. resources for rank 2 synaptic booster
20 BP - Quality Naturally Wired
-----
52 BP
Yeah, this quality is totally op.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 02:42 AM
4 BP - Focus Binding
3 BP - Learn Spell (Increased Reflexes)
8 BP - 40,000 nuyen resources for force 4 sustaining focus
------
20 BP total for 4 initiative passes. Yes, you could throw in the cost of magic and spellcasting pool, but a magician should be raising those regardless, so I don't consider those.
vs:
32 BP - 160,000 nuyen. resources for rank 2 synaptic booster
20 BP - Quality Naturally Wired
-----
52 BP
Yeah, this quality is totally op.
52 BP is overpowered against 20 BP? In which/what Universe exactly?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 02:44 AM
Ooops, Forgot about Restricted Gear, AND costed the spell at 2BP to many.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 02:44 AM
It's called sarcasm. Jesus.
I dunno if chargen/BP is the best way to compare, but it's interesting. I, for one, thought it was slightly harder to max out the Increase Reflexes spell (high force).
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 02:48 AM
Jesus.I dunno if chargen/BP is the best way to compare, but it's interesting. I, for one, thought it was slightly harder to max out the Increase Reflexes spell (high force).
Again, it appears that we have once again proven the need for a /Sarcasm Smiley... Would clear up a lot of confusion.
Not all that Hard, Really. It is just subsumed into the costs of a regular mage most of the time. I have seen few mages that do not have access to Increase Reflexes.
Posted by: Seerow Apr 25 2011, 02:54 AM
To clarify, yes my commentary was sarcasm that I assumed would be obvious given the disparity there.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 02:54 AM
Haha! No, it's the need for you to be better, Tymeaus. Specifically, to not assume people are insane, hehe.
That's my point: I thought it was a fair bit harder. Mages are even more OP.
Posted by: TheOOB Apr 25 2011, 04:20 AM
Problem with the increase initiative spell is the first time you hit a ward you have to either drop the spell or drop stealth, also background count.
Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 25 2011, 02:43 PM
Not all that Hard, Really. It is just subsumed into the costs of a regular mage most of the time. I have seen few mages that do not have access to Increase Reflexes.
You know with all the problems with Astral Barriers, Wards, Watcher Spirits, and the whole variability and Karma cost of Increased Reflexes, I am doubly glad that my Combat Medic Mage has a Synaptic Booster!
It will also make hiding the fact that my Medic is a mage when I get masking. I mean who honestly thinks that a guy with two cyber hands, cyber lower leg, cyber eyes, cyber ears, and Synaptic Booster to be a mage? Much more likely to be a hacker or a wimpy street sam.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 02:47 PM
Well, if you *have* Masking, it won't matter. Bioware is pretty hard to detect in the first place, and Masking would hide the focus, right? *shrug* It's nice to have various options.
Posted by: Udoshi Apr 26 2011, 04:48 AM
Actaully, you need Extended Masking to hide active foci and spells.
On the plus side, with a little legwork(finding the creator's aura to mimic in order to pass unhindered), you can now use it to sneak foci through wards without turning them off.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 04:51 AM
Neat. I always forget.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)