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Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 23 2011, 06:36 PM

Some of the magical diseases in Augmentation have very targeted effects. For example, Mana-Active Aura Deficiency Syndrome would be pretty scary for an awakened, but only causes nausea for mundanes.
This sort of disease could be weaponized by applying it to a high body character just before a meeting with an awakened target, or simply infecting someone close to the awakened.
On the other hand, I on't see any mechanics for acquiring diseases in Augmentation, except perhaps searching out an infected individual. I'm leaving to go kayaking soon, so I'd prefer to discuss this on dumpshock rather than looking through all the books.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 23 2011, 06:38 PM

Ask your GM.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 23 2011, 06:49 PM

Makes a good point. This is something I'd expect to see in War or Arsenal, cos let's face it, we're just the sort of slots who have trouble remembering the Geneva Convention et al above a certain pay grade.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 23 2011, 06:50 PM

May I point out that this method can be used to burn out weak awakened characters, or strong ones if you mix it with a few other penalties?

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 23 2011, 06:53 PM

Did Shadowrun have... Oh, I keep forgetting this is based in a future version of our universe.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 23 2011, 06:53 PM

While i wouldn't say you could just go out to your gunrunner or fixer and "buy" an disease, you could easily find someone having it and taking a culture and if you have a biomed shop/facility growing that to usable amounts.

Or break into some lab and steal one / bribe some dudes to sell it to you. But i guess something really dangerous or exotic will be too expensive to use as a "poison". People are a bit anal about letting infectious diseases loose into the population... don't know why *g*.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 23 2011, 07:00 PM

Geneva convention was second world war I think, and there was also some other thing that the Corporate Court enforced which says "no biochem warfare even if you're extraterritorial". I think there was something about weaponised nanotech, too.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 23 2011, 07:01 PM

But a self replicating poison is something else entirely.

Posted by: Irion Apr 23 2011, 07:10 PM

Depends on the vector. But consider, that you are a walkin biohazard.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 23 2011, 07:15 PM

But don't let that stop you being a shadowrunner. Just look at all the ghoul and other Infected runners.

Posted by: Irion Apr 23 2011, 07:18 PM

Well, I guess a lot of people here said: "Ah ghoul and vampire is playing in my group? Yeah, money for their heads!"

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 07:18 PM

God, longbowrocks. MADS is the AIDS/Legacy Virus of SR. You are a bad person.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 23 2011, 07:22 PM

I thought HMHVV was that? If you want to have a disease-in-a-can, you could always be Infected and shoot your blood/DMSO with an Ares Squirt.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 07:30 PM

No, HMHVV is the Resident Evil virus. Legacy is the one that infects mutants in X-Men, right?

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 23 2011, 07:33 PM

This Legacy is something separate from the X-Factor that gives them their powers? Goddesses, I need to start reading some COMICS.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 07:45 PM

I got this from the 1990's cartoon. I think it just kills mutants. It definitely doesn't give them their powers. Anyway, the point is that MADS is a bad disease that affects an important subset of the world. Using it as a crude weapon is unspeakable… and probably already in progress at all the big corps!

Posted by: Socinus Apr 23 2011, 07:47 PM

Somehow I see that exchange thusly.

"You want me to drop a chemical weapon in the middle of the Renraku company picnic for ten grand?"

"Yup."

"Dude...do you have any idea how fucked up that is? That's bringing down some serious legal heat, not to mention Renraku itself! GOVERNMENTS are going to care about this!"

"Twenty thousand."

"Well...look, there will be families there, wives, kids....not everyone there will be....bad...necessarily."

"Thirty thousand."

"...S-s-security...is...really tight....and the weapon..isnt really....discrete...."

"Fifty thousand."

"So did you want the weapon dropped at the buffet or the wet bar?"

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 23 2011, 07:55 PM

Yes. But only because shadowrunners are not necessarily sane or smart. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying longbowrocks needs to relax and stop obsessing about killing mages.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 24 2011, 12:26 AM

It only lasts three days. I doubt I would have any leftover power to resist after that.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 24 2011, 12:29 AM

If I don't obsess about killing mages, who will?
Also, how is anyone going to detect it before symptoms set in (Which I imagine happens at my first resistance test)?

Posted by: nezumi Apr 25 2011, 10:36 PM

I only play SR2/3, so take this with a grain of salt ...

Definitely. Awesome idea. Just watch your trail - it's about as distinct a weapon as you can use, and it's not the sort of thing governments and corps take well to.



I imagine finding someone infected would be difficult. Unless it's super-common, your best bet would be a quarantine ward or a medical center. Less suspicious, track down a lab which does testing with it. Even less suspicious, if this disease also affects animals, it may be in a lab which tests animal diseases (labs testing animal diseases are almost never held to the same standards as ones testing human diseases, even when it's the same disease. By virtue of saying 'this is anthrax for making inoculations for cattle', your security budget has just shrunk five times.)

But do talk with your GM. He's going to be on his own with this one, it sounds like, so he may not want to go there.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 26 2011, 12:24 AM

MADS can only be transferred when both the carrier and the victim are Dual-Natured, so you'd at least have to get a drug like Tempo to induce astral perception if you want to go through with your plan.

To make things even more complicated, the disease also leaves a taint on your aura that can be recognized by an Assensing (1) test.
Given that your victim has to be astrally perceiving during infection, it's a pretty serious restriction that the disease is as easily recognizable on the astral as that.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 26 2011, 05:17 AM

It seems to suggest that, but the previous grade of disease (non mana-active) doesn't require that, so it could just as easily be up in the air.

Yes, and then they have the disease after that test. Good job mage.

No he doesn't. It also transfers on contact.

Posted by: Manunancy Apr 26 2011, 05:48 AM

I'd think this would vary with how far was the mage when doing his assensing - If says hee gets a look from somethng like ten meters away and decides he'd best stay clear from someone with a bizarre aura, I doubt the bacteria/viruses/whatever would rabidly jump at him through that distance.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 26 2011, 07:23 AM

It's mana active. This is the part where mages get what's been coming to them for all that infinite range BS. Now they can get diseases at infinite range too!
Ok, technically only as far as they can assense someone from, but that's still a good ways away.
Another way to look at it is as a balancing feature for the fact that assensing can tell everything about you from how you're feeling to whether you're a technomancer. You scored 5 hits? Congratulations! You know I'm a technomancer with 4.985 essence. You also know that I had a disease, and just shared it with you.

I would never put a range limit for transmission, but it's your call.

Posted by: Irion Apr 26 2011, 08:14 AM

What the fuck are you talking about:

So you have to be dual natured to get it in the first place. And to give it on. So your plan is not working at all. (Only if you somehow stay dual natured with drugs)
It is working poorly with Aura Deficiency Syndrome. (You still need contact.)
It does not JUMP. If magical diseases would jump through the astral everyone would be a ghule right now.

Somehow reminds me of Harry Potter.
I could wipe out my Enemy and his family with spells which could backfire if a mother tries to protect her child and cost me all of my power or I just steal a unregistered weapon and blow out the brain and shoot five more times to be perfectly sure. (This methode was approved by: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6_awUgbUJs)

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 26 2011, 12:47 PM

He also knows who infected him with MADS and now you have a pissed-off, probably obscenely rich mage coming after you for revenge.
Or, in the case that he's a law-abiding citizen, he calls Lone Star's Department of Paranormal Investigations and reports you as a manahazard that has to be contained.
You know, the corps really love it when someone walks around and burns out their precious magical investments.
Not to mention that you can forget including mages in your own team.

If you want to kill mages, your best bet is still to simply become a drone rigger.
"Sorry, you can't mindcontrol my drones. Your standard stunbolt response is useless, too. Enjoy sucking massive drain from elemental combat spells and physical illusions while i just use the 4 IP i got practically for free to shoot your barely cybered Body 3-4 ass full of APDS from multiple directions."

If you absolutely want to play a streetsam and still be the magekiller, just do what everyone else does and play a fomori with Astral Hazing. If you want to take it up a notch into batshit crazy territory (not that you have to, you already have good chances of beating every mage built with the same amount of BP), make him a fomoraig as well, that's a relatively cheap way to learn counterspelling and it isn't even affected by your self-generated BGC.
Ok, you're now an acid-sweating, swamp-dwelling, infected monstrosity with a CHA maximum of 2, but you can literally eat mages for breakfast.



@Irion : you're right, it doesn't jump either. "Spreads through direct contact" excludes precisely that. One should note that Assensing works as a vector as well, however. Besides that, it's Contact only. So no, there are no diseases jumping around freely on the astral.
Staying astrally active through drugs isn't that hard to pull off, though. Not that developing a Tempo habit wouldn't turn out to be the worst nightmare of anyone lethally afraid of mages, but that's the drawback of contrived plans to kill mages with magic even though you're mundane.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 26 2011, 01:25 PM

You really should read the rules a bit more Longbowrocks... The Disease transfers through CONTACT (as you, yourself, mentioned in a previous post), not through being Assensed. You MUST TOUCH the target, there is no other way to transfer that disease. And that target must either be Dual Natured, or Assensing, a the time of contact.

If you are changing it to Nigh-Infinite transmisssion ranges, it is a house rule and you should state it as such. The rules are pretty explicit on this one, as Irion has already pointed out.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 01:58 PM

Yeah, based on the description, we have to assume that "Vector: Contact, Assensing" means both at once, not one or the other. Even magical viruses are still *viruses*, and you can't get one without physical contact. That's why MADS only affects *Dual-Natured*; a projecting mage can't get it, no matter what he assenses (*sees*) or touches. You can't get it just through seeing.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 26 2011, 03:07 PM

Keep going out with Joytoys all the time and you'll get HSV-5 in no time flat!

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 26 2011, 03:14 PM

I'll give you guys the "dual natured only" since I was just trying to make my method easier by saying that MADS is a development of ADS, and thus wouldn't reduce its target audience to only dual natured being (I was effectively claiming it was errata, and so I apologize).

However, the commas after vectors are OR operators, not AND. That's why you get things like these:

• Gamma-Anthrax (Bacillus anthracis strain gamma)
  Vector: Contact, Inhalation, Ingestion
• Croisade (Visceral Ipsvorosis)
  Vector: Inhalation

You can't contact, inhale, and ingest something at the same time.
Also, if you count inhalation as contact for the Gamma Anthrax, then you can't have inhalation without contact, so the vector for Croisade should be: Contact, Inhalation.

If you don't believe this logic, take a look for yourself. The rules would mention if vectors stacked, since that would be an important mechanic to keep track of. The rules don't outline how to manage multiple vectors, because each vector is managed on its own.

The vector is the method by which the disease infects the
host. Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin. A
chemical seal (see p. 317, SR4) offers complete protection unless
breached. Diseases spread by ingestion may be in food or liquid
consumed by the victim. Diseases spread by inhalation may be
transmitted to the victim via his breathing apparatus; a character
wearing a gas mask, chemical seal, or using an activated cyberware
internal air tank (p. 334, SR4) is immune to its effects. Diseases
spread by injection must be injected into the target’s bloodstream
or alternately through an open wound.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 26 2011, 03:16 PM

Why are you combinig MADS and ADS?
MADS is the dual natured one.
ADS only spreads through contact.

Read the rules man.

Posted by: Irion Apr 26 2011, 03:24 PM

@longbowrocks
Yeah no I get it. But the vectors, symptoms are just a first note, the text is regulating the disease.
And here the text says:

So the vector is actually false it would have to be contact(dual natured).
But this is not important, since the text is giving a perfect explaination how it is meant to be.
(As a matter of fact the disease assumes that vampirers are dual natured.)

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 26 2011, 03:37 PM

Sounds right. Ok.
Personally, I think I'll stick with crunch though, since assensing bugs me almost as much as ritual casting.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 26 2011, 04:32 PM

Why does Assensing bother you? Assensing is great for targeting magic, but sucks for everything else, as you would be at a -2 (due to assensing) for any non-magical task involved. I am just curious as to your reasons.

Posted by: Manunancy Apr 26 2011, 04:49 PM

If yo ucan catch the disease by merely assensing a carrier, what would happen if the assensing is done trhough a polarized ward ? Logically, the ward should stop block the transmission.

Note : the polarized ward is a rather clear proof that assensing isn't equivalent to an astral contact but more akin to sight. Which makes the transmission by assensing a rather weird proposition. Bacteria and viruses aren't exactly known for their mobility, they rely on their host or some medium to carry them.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 26 2011, 05:09 PM

No problem.
I'm just a magic-hater in general because when it trips me up, it generally does it with an opposed test that's wildly in the magician's favor, or no opposed test at all. Needless to say, this is difficult to deal with. I'll most likely stop hating magic once I figure out a successful all-around counter to spellcasters (I'm thinking some sort of hidden drone puppeteer). Once I've done that, I'll start a wild campaign against the character I created to beat mages. This cycle will probably continue for a while.

Assensing is one of those things that doesn't offer an opposed test to mundanes. 2 hits will grant the "assenser" the ability to recognize the target's aura if they have seen it before (possibly requiring a memory test, but still no rolls on the target's part), regardless of physical changes or disguise. 5 hits will tell you whether the target is a technomancer, which castrates one of the happy advantages of being a technomancer: anonymity. 5 hits also grants knowledge of the presence and location of implants, geneware, and nanotech, again with no opposed test.

Thanks for asking though. I now realize that a lot of my emotions about assensing were born from what I thought it could do when I started playing this game. On review, it's still a bothersome ability, but it doesn't give you the power to see through walls, or negate optical camo any more than ultrasound does.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 26 2011, 05:13 PM

Other spellcasters.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 26 2011, 05:18 PM

Cheating! I meant by mundane means.
I'm actually still debating with myself whether I mean 'mundane' or 'non-awakened' by that.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 26 2011, 05:36 PM

Why does the counter have to be nonmagical? The best way to keep from getting hacked is to have a hacker protect your stuff. The best way to keep from getting shot is to have a street samurai murder everyone in range. The best way to keep from getting screwed in a deal is to have an expert negotiator to do your talking for you. The best way to keep from being affected by magic is to have a magician protecting you with magic.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 26 2011, 06:34 PM

Quoted for Truth... Magic defeats Magic. Always has in Shadowrun. There are a few mundane ways to try and stack in the mundane's favor, but ultimately, a magician is the best solution.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 06:34 PM

Yeah. Magic is supposed to be unfair. There are some ways to tone it down (including some house rules), but you shouldn't alter the basic specialness of it.

Posted by: Manunancy Apr 26 2011, 06:53 PM

In my opnion shadworun's magic is designed so that resistances tests are reasonably balanced when there's some counterspelling on. It turns what would be a 'magician's stat+skill vs target's stat' into a 'stat+skill vs stat+skill' contest.

Rurning it into a 'mage's stat+skill vs target's stat+ skill' would shift the balance in the defense's favor making it very hard for a mage to affect a protected target - beating a 'target's stat+skill+counterpselling' would be hard.

This balance seems quite fair for me : pitting an armed, armored and chromed guy vs an unchromed and unarmored one would quickly end with a dead nudist. Which means that an unprepared mage will probably end up as swiss cheese in an impromptu encounter with a sammie. But a prepared mage is likely to ruin the sammie's day. It balances out.

Note : I'm speaking using run-of-the -mill, not specialy optimized characters.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 27 2011, 06:53 AM

It feels to me like the difference between a mundane and a mage is the difference between Superman, and Martian Manhunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_Manhunter#Powers_and_abilities).
Superman can do incredible things, but Martian Manhunter gets all that plus telekinesis, shapeshifting, ethereality, and invisibility, which effectively means he could do fine without any of Superman's powers.

As for squishy mages, as outlined above, that's true in many games. However, in Shadowrun mages can wear loads of armor, dump points into body, and even toss a barrage of spells out from a tank/drone with only a fiber-optic cable sticking out the window.

Posted by: ggodo Apr 27 2011, 07:13 AM

Not a fair comparison, fire negates all of the Manhunter's powers, and is way more common than Radioactive Alien Rainbow Rocks. The Manhunter is more powerful than Superman, but a kid with a match shuts him down hard.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 27 2011, 07:13 AM

And a rigger can sit on a comfortable couch six miles away and drive a tank around to blow up your magetankdrone, with minimal personal risk.

Not everything has or needs a direct counter that's readily available to everyone.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 27 2011, 07:30 AM

Lol, you would know. Although apparently the writers haven't been very consistent with the magnitude of his weakness across the years.


I didn't mean for the mage example to be a challenge, but more of a remark on the fact that
A) Mages in Shadowrun don't have inherently lower HP than mundanes (as opposed to DnD and most RPG video games).
B) Mages in Shadowrun can armor up (again, different from DnD and video games).


I've been looking forward to building exactly that character for exactly that purpose for about two weeks now. Just no time to do it. However, I will take the challenge since you got around to it first.
I use this:
Military Vehicles...............Handling Accel Speed Pilot Body Armor Sensor Avail Cost
Aztechnology Cuanmitztli +3.........5/10...50......3.....36.....30.......4.........37F...1,400,000¥

Why are you making me side with the mages? Evil McEvil Man.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 27 2011, 08:04 AM

Mages in Shadowrun are significantly less powerful than they are in other RPG systems. A sufficiently powerful mage in D&D (not the New Coke version that's in the market now) can kill every man, woman, and child in a sizable village in a single action.



It's not a challenge, it's a counter. A counter for the rigger would be a hacker that traces the rigger back to his commlink and loads a bunch of Black IC onto it.

Everything has its counter in Shadowrun, and most things have more than one. Magic's primary counter happens to be other magic.

Well, and Thor shots. Thor shots counter pretty much anything.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 27 2011, 08:16 AM

But not from the other side of the universe, and only once per day.
Don't those natural disaster, higher than normal AOE type spells generally take more than 1 standard action to cast?

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 27 2011, 08:39 AM

Some of them take an entire round, yes (though nothing says Sociopathic Mass Murder quite like an Incendiary Cloud). The point still being that it's not a valid comparison.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 27 2011, 09:07 AM

As far as non-squishy mages go, yes, they are entirely possible. That's the advantage of classless systems such as SR : roles aren't as clearly defined and you can hybridize character concepts in a way that's qualitatively different from multiclassing.

However, this will still make you worse at your primary role most of the time. Mages are scarce on BP to begin with- raising your Magic stat, buying appropriate qualities, half a ton of specific skills, spells, pushing otherwise rarely used attributes for soaking drain, that adds up. Simultaneously, the mage still has to buy a whole bunch of essential mundane skills.
If you'd ever tried to build a mage, you'd be aware of this, it's a pain in the ass to make them at least survivable in situations where the sam would shine.

Now, there's obviously buffs for everything- but unlike the boosts of a sam, these are temporary, take time to set up, require expensive ressources to be maintained comfortably and might be missing at the most inopportune moment. Having to move through a single ward undetected may shut off your entire defenses. Stepping into a BGC can leave you completely defenseless, or at least significantly impair you.
From one moment to the next, your additional IP and magical armor are gone. At best, you have to cast them all over again. At worst, you are stuck in an area where you are effectively a very poorly built 300 BP character who has to hope he doesn't accidentally shoot himself in the foot.
Sprawls aren't littered with zones that shut your bioware off.

A sam can also shoot opponents he can't see. The -6 for invisible targets shouldn't stop a good shooter, and he can still use ultrasound or radar, which doesn't work for spellcasting. The mage can't do that.
Just toss a thermal smoke grenade at the mage and use your ultrasound goggles to target him. He'll love that.
Yes, there's ritual magic. That just takes half a day and additional preparation. There's a reason why so many players don't even bother with it, in spite of the drastic advantages it would offer.

On top of that, SHOOT THE MAGE FIRST has been drilled into every corpsec squad ever. As soon as they realize that you're the caster, you're hosed. Better hope that your troll tank can keep them from pumping you full of tungsten alloys.

There's good reasons for mundanes to be afraid of mages, but mages themselves don't have it any better in this regard, they will get into situations where they feel utterly defenseless in comparison to other roles. I hate walking into a fight whenever i'm playing a caster. Staying in the background busy with summoning and mind control is so much easier and doesn't make me feel like a sitting duck.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 27 2011, 01:06 PM

Why Only Once per Day?
The character my Wife plays could do it all day long if she so desired. When you can cast various versions of "Incinerate Town" you do not have to rely upon a Single casting.

Yes they do. So? Most versions of RPG Mages do not take any "Drain" from their spells either (Shadowrun and Mage the Awakening are the only examples I can immediately think of that have such a mechanic). Canon DnD does not. And that is generally the standard to compare against. DnD Mages can do things that Shadowrun mages can only Dream About.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 27 2011, 03:45 PM

Ah, I was thinking of spells like control weather, which take a very long time.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 27 2011, 04:26 PM

More than possible. You can make a more than decent damage soak with just armor and body. Armor is cheap, and body can be cheap if you're a troll.

Combat armor and a ballistic shield will take care of the armor. Since a shield takes one hand, I think a sammy wouldn't be able to use it with most of their two-handed weapons, you're on par with them for damage soaking. Armor is cheap, so no worries about overextending your BP (just get camouflage suit from chargen, then upgrade to combat armor later).

I've actually brought those points up in other threads, but people didn't find them too convincing for some reason. Maybe I would realize why they aren't convincing if I'd ever tried to build a mage.

Expensive resources? Why do you need resources to maintain a karma-made-permanent spell? Or a sustained spell?
Unlike the boosts of sam, these have more variety, and cost nothing, take no surgery time, and can be replaced rather easily if someone ever removes or breaks them (try saying that about 'ware). It's also arguable that if you chill in your base for a few days and overcast all your buffs to R13, then no BC can ever take them down (I'm of the opinion that deep space is -infinity, not -12).

If the target is behind a barrier, mage sight goggles or just blasting the barrier should be sufficient. If you're worried about light conditions, astral perception will take care of that. As for ultrasound and radar, there's a metagenetic quality for echolocation, but I don't think that can be used for "sight". I'll look it up later.
Thermal smoke won't help against astral perception.

Hide behind a barrier. You don't need to break your cover to kill everyone on the other side. You can just use mage sight goggles.

Stack your ballistic armor up to 20. Now you average 7 hits to resist ballistic damage, and quite a few against impact too. Improved invisibility bends light (all wavelengths apparently), so no need to fear from anyone except the one guy who has the most expensive technical vision upgrade I know of: ultrasound. Even then, you can just put up a glass window between you two and he's blind.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 27 2011, 04:32 PM

Powerful, large AOE spells require high level slots. I built my first few characters for 20th level before I realized that our campaigns wouldn't take anyone past 6th level. You guys must have been playing for a while.

Not much I can say against this: right, and right.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 27 2011, 04:43 PM

Karma is an expensive resource. Arguably the most expensive resource.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 27 2011, 04:56 PM

The word "expensive" threw me off, but karma is indeed a valuable resource. Probably the most valuable, since others can generally be valued by NuYen cost.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 27 2011, 05:03 PM

We have indeed been playing for years. My campaign has been running for just over 20 years now, with 6 or 7 different groups of characters. The current characters have been playing for several years (except for one or two new characters), and my Wife's mage is almost at 18th Level.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 27 2011, 05:04 PM

But it is easily renewable, as well.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 27 2011, 05:05 PM

Jeez.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 27 2011, 05:30 PM

Troll is by far the worst race for mages in the core book. Mages live and die by their drain stats, and trolls take hits to every single drain stat possible. These same penalties also mean that they can use less foci, bind less spirits and have horrible attributes when astrally projecting.



Have you ever read up on the encumbrance rules? Turning your mage into a turtle will make him pretty much immobile.



You are aware that there's cummulative sustaining penalties and a mage with a ton of sustained spells is practically incapable of doing anything right?
When you rely heavily on sustained spells, you need a sustaining focus or a spirit of man who casts the spell for you and sustains it as one of his powers. As Natural Spell is an optional power, you only get one kind of spell per 3 points of Force at best, so this option is extremely limited as well.




And when you crash into a ward, it automatically alerts the guy who set it up.
You'd also need a Rating 12 sustaining focus for that if you don't want to live with sustaining penalties to everything you do.




Except it won't.
You cannot target anyone on the physical plane from the astral unless he is also astrally perceiving.



Ah, mage sight goggles. Nothing screams I AM A MAGE PLEASE SHOOT ME like them.



Assuming a body of 4, you also take a -6 to all tests linked to Agility and Reaction, including initiative.
Enjoy going last and being a perfect target for called shots because you are almost completely incapable of dodging.



Or he uses radar goggles. Or a millimeter wave scanner. Or uses thermal sense. Or just lays down some suppressive fire with his SMG.
Guard dogs (including hellhounds and barghests) also don't care if you're visible, they'll just smell you. Spirits won't be fooled either. Or any drone with a decent sensor package. Good cyberears or an olfactory booster may also be sufficient to locate you.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 27 2011, 06:05 PM

Took a while... But fun...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 27 2011, 06:10 PM

I have seen a few decent troll builds out there. They take a little more effort, but not too much.



Rating 13 Actually. And you do indeed alert the Mage who established the ward. Hard not to at that Force Level. Unless you have Masking and Extended Masking, of course.



Indeed...



Actually, you have a penatly if either of ther stats are above your Body x 2 (or x3 for Military Grade Armors). So with a 20/20, and a Body of 4, you would be at a -12 (-6 for each of the Armor Values).



Agreed, Perception is so easy to boost, for so many senses, that I always side with the technology, for the most part.

Anyways...

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 27 2011, 06:59 PM

I'm going to call RAI on that one: only the higher value matters. No double penalty. These are modifiers to the attributes themselves, and it's unreasonable to expect that 12/10 standard security armor (with helmet) would reduce an average person to -2 Agility and -2 Reaction. Theoretically that should mean they're unable to move.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 27 2011, 09:21 PM

Call RAI all you want, But it is still RAW....
Besides, Assuming that you are wearing Security Armor, your threshold is actually 12 for a Character with Body 4 (Body x 3). So no losses at all. See how that works...

No actual reductions to Stats because you did not exceed the Threshold. But by all means, Only limit it to the highest value. However, don't complain that PC's have an insurmountable Armor advantage.

Posted by: Epicedion Apr 28 2011, 01:50 AM

It's (Body x 2), so you'd need Body 6 for no losses.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 28 2011, 02:20 AM

Ooops, Sorry, Caught up in the use of the optional rule.



We use the 2nd option, and apply it only to Security Armor. And of course, there is always the options for Military Grade Armor as well.

IF you are using the standard Rule, than the character deserves to be encumbered heavily while wearing Security Armor and having only a Body of 4. He would be -4 to each attribute; -2 for Ballistic exceeding the maximum, and -2 for Impact exceeding the maximum. What is exactly wrong with this? Seems perfectly logical to me.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 28 2011, 02:37 AM

I wouldn't say he 'deserves' -4 (a massive penalty) for daring to wear Security Armor (a standard commercial product) with his measly *above-average* Body. Besides, we all know how easy it is to get tons of armor while avoiding this penalty… hell, kudos to this character for not munchkin-ing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 28 2011, 02:40 AM

Security Armor IS munchkining....
Though not as much as Military Grade armor is.

What ever happened to wearing a Secure Longcoat and being okay with that?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 28 2011, 02:47 AM

I'm assuming he has a valid reason to wear it; there must be plenty of Security NPCs with Body 4. It simply wouldn't exist if it *crippled* anyone with a Body below the human *max*. That's crazy. And yes, he said 'I think this is RAI'.

As opposed to FFBA/Gel/PPP/monstrosities; pure metagaming.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 28 2011, 03:07 AM

Opinions vary I guess...
I just see Security Armor being Customized to the individual wearer, is all...
And yes, those monstrosities are ludicrous indeed.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 28 2011, 04:42 AM

Kind of an exaggeration since Trolls don't take any hit to the dominant drain stat (Willpower), but I see your point.

I never had a reason to since I was a troll, and our party's mage didn't even know he had armor. Thanks for that. I'll keep my eye out.

I would hardly rely heavily on them. Probably start with a force 2 sustaining focus to maintain one spell, then upgrade to a force 4+ when I get a hold of the resources. A spirit of man can work out too. Then there's quickening for a spell or two that I intend to cast at uber force. I haven't heard about Natural spell since I'm still new at the whole mage thing, but it seems like dividing these spells up three ways would minimize the cost, especially considering I wouldn't want more than 3-6 spells.

Where do you get rating 12? Don't I only need a focus of force 2*(# of sustained spells)?

I was just going by the latest edition of the core book:

Is there a rule that overrides that somewhere?

They also scream: I can stand behind 29 meters of solid brick and shoot you instead. In a cover-based system, it's helpful to never have to poke your head out from cover. Even shooting the goggles should require a called shot.

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt on body. Between the armor I wear, and the barrier that adds to my armor when people decide they have no choice but to shoot through it, I should be fine.
Couldn't I also go possession tradition and use a spirit to fortify my attibutes? I heard about that, but haven't looked it up yet.

I'm pretty sure all thermal senses work by picking up on infrared light emitted by warm bodies, so no dice there.
Wouldn't spirits use astral perception, and so not be able to see through the glass?
For cyberears, I think "I heard you looking at me" is a figure of speech. Not a reality.
I admit I haven't looked this up, but firing blind is for when you can't see you're target, but know it's there. Doesn't smell just allow enemies to fire blind because they know I'm around? Or in the case of dogs, know pretty well where I am? I'm curious if smell would actually negate penalties for lack of sight.

Posted by: Manunancy Apr 28 2011, 05:16 AM

Having a bunch of low-force foci brings it's own troubles : you can't have more bonded foci than your magic attribute. Since you will probably need some beyond those used to sustain your spells, it might be a problem.

Quickened spells are an option, but they carry some troubles with them :
- you'll have trouble with wards - quickening descriptions explicitely mentiosn they can be disrupted by wards
- it can turn into a karma sink : if the spell gets ended for one reason or another, you get no refunds on karma
- since a quickened spell is also an active spell, you're gong to end up with an aura like a christmas tree. And you can't turn it off without burning the invested karma. Activating foci along with it won't help in that regard.

Even a fairly dense security that spot an aura alight with spells and foci will think 'trouble' and react accordingly, just as they would if they spotted a gun-an-armor totting sammie hanging around. During a run it's not much of a problem, but when you're going to the mall for some shopping, that can spell troubles.

At least SR4 spares you the pervious's editions grounding rules - using the active foci/spells as conduits to channel a spell from the astral to the material plane. That could be brutal, with a damage spell flowing outward from the mage to fry the others PCs....

Posted by: Sephiroth Apr 28 2011, 05:22 AM

That's why you get Extended Masking first, and subsequently quicken Increase Intuition BEFORE anything else. Still going to be a karma sink, though. =/

Posted by: Dahrken Apr 28 2011, 05:55 AM

You need a sustaining focus for each spell, with a Force that is at least as high as the Force of the spell it sustains. So sutaining say 4 buff spells of Force 13 will need 4 Force 13 sustaining focus - and the karma to bind them.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 28 2011, 06:14 AM

Ah, I see it now. Thanks. Dunno where I came up with that other rule.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 28 2011, 01:58 PM

@Longbowrocks :
Regarding the astral targetting, yes, an astrally perceiving mage can target subjects on the physical plane. If he can see them normally as well, with a physical sense.
Astral perception doesn't hinder targetting on the material plane. but with astral perception alone, you can only lock on to astral/dual-natured targets.

There's a few neat tricks enabled by how the issue is handled (for example, you can manaball a group of spirits or ghouls without risking to hit your non-dual natured teammates stuck between them), but astral perception does nothing against a mundane opponent just taking cover.
I think the rules also suggest to apply partial cover modifiers to spellcasting tests (they also suggest modifiers for casting at really long ranges, together with the -3 penalty for casting through optical devices like mage sight goggles, binoculars or endoscopes).

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 28 2011, 04:04 PM

I can see that being RAI, but I don't see anything specifying that as RAW. Could you cite something?

Posted by: Irion Apr 28 2011, 04:08 PM

I wonder a bit. We have mentioned a lot of modifiers here. I wonder if a mage (considering all of them) es even able to cast a spell.
He needs one net hit to effect anything after all.

So lets get started: Our mage trys to scare of some grangers in the barrens of seatle.

First we apply the BC of 1 which is said to be present in the Barrens.
Lets put the scene in around around 10 o clock pm. So it is quite dark.
And we are in Seatle so it is raining a bit.

So with normal sight we would be down by -5!
With Astral Vision we would be at: -3.

If you think of combat and apply partial cover or even good cover for everyone you go down to: -7(-9) or -5(-7).
The avarage mage would be crippeled in such a situation.

If you start applying all the modifiers (from camelion suite or the Camouflage spell it is getting even worse.

(And how does the mana version interact with astral perception)

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 28 2011, 04:19 PM

Why would astral vision be affected by darkness? Is this in a table somewhere?

You sent me racing through the books on this one. There is no chameleon suite, it's a suit, which I don't think would help against astral perception because it's optical camo.
Camouflage spell looks similar.

Posted by: Irion Apr 28 2011, 04:47 PM

Just a typo, sorry for that.


There is an astral visibility table in Streetmagic.
BC gives a malus and it depends on how many lifeforms there are. etc.

Posted by: Rasumichin Apr 28 2011, 04:54 PM

SR4A, p. 183, Targeting :

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magi-
cian can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence.


Emphasis mine. When you are assensing a physical, non-dual-natured target, you only see the aura. Your aura is not an astral form, it cannot be targeted by spellcasting on the astral.
Likewise, you couldn't target an astrally projecting mage who is manifesting unless you would change to astral perception. You only see a ghost-like image that he is casting on a plane he isn't actually present on. The same holds true for the auras of mundanes : they are not actually present on the astral. They are particularly vibrant shadows of an entirely physical entity.
This is why being a dual-natured being (ghoul, shapeshifter) is such a pain in the ass- in contrast to everyone else in the game, you can be targeted by projecting mages all the time.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 28 2011, 05:01 PM

Thanks. This is something I've been misinterpreting for a while to varying degrees.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 28 2011, 05:05 PM

I find this excerpt more important:

It's only astrally *projecting* mages that can't target physical-only things. I'm only emphasizing this, not correcting anyone. I am not aware that you're in any way hindered by not using a natural sense; blind mages can target physical things while astral-perceiving. You still need a physical LOS, but astral sight needs that *anyway*. There've been some major threads about this, and the rules have changed significantly between editions.

In any case, this issue is the main reason mages often get vision augmentations: avoid astral vulnerability, and increase sighting options.

Posted by: Manunancy Apr 28 2011, 05:20 PM

My intepretation of it is that this rule applies when the mage is purely astral - otherwise they wouldn't bother with using the next paragraph to specify that a mage in astral perception can target either ot the astral or physical plane. This second paragraph doesn't differentiate between eyeball or assensing targeting - so either method should work.

Basically when the mage is on one side of the fence, he can only target what's effectively present on his side - but when he's stradling it through astral perception (or whatever way to achieve a dual-nature) he can target both sides - though only one side with a given spell, and a spell selection that's influenced by the chosen side (namely, mana spells only when casting through the astral, and maybe a few astral-only spells disabled in the pyscial plane).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 28 2011, 05:29 PM

Exactly.

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 17 2011, 08:23 AM

Here's an interesting twist.

There is the "carrier" negative quality at 5 points.

One could use that one but add different diseases, somewhat creating a living pandoras box of diseases walking around.
There could be balance issues so the GM should monitor exactly WHAT the diseases do.

That way a character could have the following fun.

Amnesia
Carrier (Disease)
Carrier (Disease)

Posted by: Manunancy Jun 17 2011, 10:53 AM

That's something I would totally ban as a GM - and certainly not tolerate as a player a soon as I figure it out. Because even the the character isn't harmed by what he's carrying, the other PCs arent - and will probably the first to catch it. With a TPK (bat the carrier) a likely result if the diseases are bad enough. It reeks of 'I wanna destroy the game' playstyle.

Even for an NPC I'd be wary of it - and strongly dislike it from the GM as it will have a strong feeling of 'I'm going to screw you and enjoy it and there's nothing you can do about it or even to see it coming'. Season with as much evil cackling and hand-rubbing as necessary.

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 17 2011, 11:11 AM

Wouldn't this apply then to any one player that wants to play a Ghoul, even Gary the friendly Ghoul? After all, unless they take a quality for it they will be carriers as well.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 17 2011, 12:19 PM

True, but HMHVV, even the Ghoul one, needs some kind of physical contact, such as biting/scratching/spitting in their soyburger.

Posted by: nezumi Jun 17 2011, 12:59 PM

I also wouldn't be TOO worried about it, it all depends on the vector. I've yet to see characters share blood. They don't get into melee combat with each other or (generally) bite each other. Same with sex. You can have even more esoteric vectors (or limitations on who is vulnerable). A mage who is carrier for a mage-attacking disease in a party with no other mages is fine.

Posted by: Manunancy Jun 17 2011, 04:53 PM

It can ary with the disease - and the point cost should reflect this. But the post I answered to left the feeling the diseases would fall into the 'nasty and contagious' slot, turnign the character into a 2070's Thyphoid Mary. An STD affecting only sheeps would deserve a forceful slap on th head rather than any sort of points .

Though a character that turns out danger to any mage he interacts with is going to quickly have problems finding spell formulas and other magical gear. Odds are he can kiss any magical group goodbye too.