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Posted by: Snow_Fox Apr 24 2011, 04:02 PM

I've noticed people complaining that 4th ed mages are getting too powerful and the gamre world might be changing to famor them too much. Hows this for a suggested fix- a growing anti-mage prejudice. Magically capable metahumans at all levels still is less than 1% of the population. We're more aware of them because we look at runners BUT what if the general populatino starts to have a real prejudice? Not just in back woods places but in Civilized lands like UCAS, CAS, UK, France and Germany?

Small things at first, "we don't serve your kind here" "I'm sorry we lost your reservation" "No we don't have it in your size" and of course "You got a licence for that spell?" down to maybe in the barrens mages and nacent spell slingers being killed.

This would force mages to be far more careful about what they do, far less open and a little paranoid OR go into the protection of corps. In the 2050's it was fashoonmable to wear faux mystic symobls (See Mercurial) by 2072 maybe it's just the opposite and it's driven underground and wearing mystic symbols openy is like wearing a pentagram in the 1980's.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 24 2011, 04:30 PM

Well, usually when you want to do something like that, you take them to a Veterinarian and...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 24 2011, 05:07 PM

AFAIK prejudice against the awakened has actually gone down over the years, simply because they have been around longer and nothing really bad has happened. Similar to all those weirdos that chop off their arms to get mechanical ones or even stranger modifications, the public simply gets used to it. Remember the Night of Rage? This have gotten better for Orks and Trolls as well.
Trid shows (like Kar Combat Mage) probably also have helped.

Right now the Big Scary Thing ™ is technomancers. They get a lot of prejudice.

If you want to create an alternate world where the prejudice did not diminish or even increase until 2070, just go ahead. You can make it as hard as you (and your players) like. Just make sure to tell them that your world will differ from the world they can read about in the rule books.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 24 2011, 05:12 PM

There are still Anti-Awakened groups, but they tend to be pretty quiet. Something about Tehran.

And still Anti-Goblinized Groups, Anti-Faerie Groups, Anti-Human Groups... Racism is still alive and well, and, in some places, doesn't even hide.

After all, there's some places in Seattle where you can be pulled over/arrested for "Driving While Meta".

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Apr 24 2011, 05:12 PM

A thing that people seem very willing to forget when it comes to demographics (and never, ever, EVER try and do Shadowrun / Battletech / Your Game Here math), is that even the 1% cross section is going to be further sliced sub-sections. The curve in this case, I'd think, would be distinctly slanted towards Magic 2 or 3, leaving magic 4+ awakened characters as a kind of outlier. Remember, attributes and skills represent a different kind of curve than what a normal demographic cross section gives you. The top 1% of the 1% are going to be Magic 6. Then, the top 1% of that top 1% is going to have a six in the associated skills for the magic use.

If you begin your thinking with that kind of a supposition in mind, magic is a lot less of a problem than it first appears. The majority of magic users are magic 1 or 2, capable of a few cantrips and minor spells - useful, certainly - but are not leagues distant from powerful arcanists.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 05:15 PM

USE Background Count. Seriously. Technically, Seattle should be under a BGC of at least 1 or 2 EVERYWHERE with some 3 to 4 in certain locations . .

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Apr 24 2011, 05:18 PM

Whyfor? I don't really know much about this whole thing, as I haven't fully read Street Magic. Can you give a summary as to why?

Posted by: CanRay Apr 24 2011, 05:18 PM

Great for Birthday Parties, however!

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 24 2011, 05:21 PM

How does that increase prejudice? if more and more awakened don't even realize they are special since they are always in BC>MAG, Joe average will be even less likely to meet or witness an awakened doing his magic. Those that can still function will have their effectiveness reduced and would be considered less of a threat.

Mechanically there are many cheap ways to make mages less effective (glowMoss, FAB, Wards etc.), but I don't see how those increase the negative feelings of the mundanes.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Apr 24 2011, 05:35 PM

I know that's why it's easy to target. Tehran would be less of an issue because it's not anti meta, it's antimagic. orks/trolls/dwarves etc could just as easily not like spell slingers either.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 05:49 PM

Background count happens by emotion. Seattle is an infested 'Ell'Ole. Hatred, fear, sadness, greed, ruthlessness . .
Also, there's the fact that seattle itself is mostly dead, due to being all beton and glass and steel and little nature . .
Those things figure into the background count too. And this is just the normal every day seattle, not hells kittchen . .
Not the barrens, not the prisons and things like this. Racism. Violence. Death. Murder. Rape. Killing. These are bad. .
And the good ones make up background count too. Love. Sex. Happyness. Every single emotion strong enough . .
As long as it is there for a long enough time, it is enough to create background count.
Live in New York City once . . But leave, before mit makes you hard . .
A Rock Concert with a good artist could very well make a Background Count of Level 5 or 6 for some hours too . .

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 24 2011, 06:57 PM

I'd really appreciate it if the books would depend less on racism to balance the game. I'm aware some GM's pay close attention to this sort of thing, and bring it into their campaigns. However, I've never personally known a GM to roleplay racism in any important way, and new GM's typically won't either. If a balance isn't built into the rules instead of the fluff, many campaigns will tend to have very big problems with mages.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 24 2011, 07:33 PM

What makes you think that you even need racism to balance mages? Applying all the drawbacks from magic that are in the rules is enough IMHO.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 07:38 PM

"If you would choose war, see what you would war against!" Brilliant.



Wie sagt man das auf Deutsch, Stahlseele?

Posted by: jizo Apr 24 2011, 07:38 PM

Not a large quibble with your statement but one figure I have heard tossed around is that the military in the US contains 1% or less of the population, on the other hand I personally know several people who are in the military today, and while this figure probably does not include veterans who are no longer in a service it does give some clue as to how often a person might run into a mage, especially if you consider SF/elite military on the same order as high level mages

The only other piece I don't agree with is the disassociation of high attribute and high skill characters, one would expect most of the people to which magic comes easily would train a fair amount in it as it is a very high paying job corpside, and a power multiplier in the shadows

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 24 2011, 07:41 PM

Nicht! (You don't!)

Letztens DoW2 Retribution gespielt, Stahlseele?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 07:42 PM

Höllnloch würd ich meinen, aber ich weiss nicht, wie sie das übersetzt haben, weil ich das Spiel in englisch gespielt habe ^^

Och naja, ich hab 2 Wochen Urlaub gemacht, als das Spiel rauskam und alle Kampagnen durchgezockt ^^

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 07:45 PM

I knew this would be a bad idea. *Defaults on German skill... fails.* Now where's that linguasoft chip?

"Something something, but I don't know, (how to say that?) because I have the game in English?

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 24 2011, 07:46 PM

I don't know about that.

Magic frequently deals in absolutes: "cast spell, and immediately become aware of all beings with hostile intentions within radius X". These absolutes are countered by other magical absolutes, but sometimes bleed over into the realm of mundanes, who have no abilities of that kind (as with the above case).

Nonmagical abilities almost always require some sort of test/opposed test to affect others (perhaps always).

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 24 2011, 07:47 PM

I haven't played it in German either, but what I remember form the German version of the language of the Orks it's pretty much intolerable. Replacing s with z simply does not work in German, and adding an s mostly is not a valid but grammatically incorrect plural. Replacing er with a isn't a usual way to write slang either.

Read the table for detection spells. 4+ net hits get you that on Detect enemies.

There is always some kind of test with magic as well, except for switching to Astral Perception/Projection, actually perceiving or doing something of course requires tests. Most if not all of the spells that effect the oppsition have opposed tests. I really don't see your problem

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 07:50 PM

close enough ^^

It does not make much of a difference in terms of pronounciation at least ^^

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 07:51 PM

You actually have Or'zet in the German books? O_O

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 07:52 PM

German Stuff is superior *snickers*

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 07:54 PM

Just cos you get all your stuff made by S-K. We don't get ANYTHING here in the UK. I don't even have FLGS. :'( :'( :'( :'(

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 07:56 PM

Poor guy.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 07:58 PM

Yay, pity! My favourite!

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 24 2011, 08:00 PM

Not that I know. We were talking about the Orks from Warhammer 40K and their peculiar type of English/German.
At least to me "Lootas & Burnaboyz" works but "Plünderaz & Brennaboyz" doesn't.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 08:06 PM

Even I can see that doesn't work. And I have German 1.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 24 2011, 08:10 PM

I'd argue that it doesn't work in English, either.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 24 2011, 08:11 PM

Using bad grammar and/or some dialect was a good idea from GW but simply using similar letter replacements in German wasn't. Now that I think of it, giving Orks Bavarian accents may be funny.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 08:11 PM

no, you're closer to 2.
and there are MANY people with german 0 even over here in germany <.<

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 08:13 PM

O_O Kein scheiss?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 08:15 PM

Nope, kein scheiss.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 24 2011, 08:16 PM

Now it may even be German(colloquial/vulgar) 1(+2)

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 08:18 PM

Ich bumse Blondinenwitze. Give a British teenager ANY foreign language phrasebook and they will find all the dirty words in five minutes AND use it with relatively proper grammar.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 08:19 PM

OK, that one was wrong.
Would be "i fuck blonde jokes"

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 08:20 PM

Stupid dictionary. Meant to be 'I screw dumb blondes'.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 24 2011, 08:22 PM

Either way, derailing the thread suddenly became a lot more tasteful.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 08:24 PM

And practical.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 08:28 PM

Everything is better with/in german!

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 08:34 PM

Everything is better NOT in English!

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 24 2011, 08:47 PM

How about puns that only work in English?

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 24 2011, 08:55 PM

Those work. But for actual communication, it frequently fails me.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 24 2011, 09:46 PM

Discworld?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 24 2011, 09:52 PM

'The Translation is pretty good actually.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Apr 24 2011, 10:17 PM

...Naval Weapons (oops, that's a 3rd ed solution).

Posted by: Glyph Apr 24 2011, 11:12 PM

Honestly, increased anti-mage prejudice is a good idea if your notion is "I want a darker, grittier, more dystopian game." But it is a bad idea if you are using it to balance Magic. They still have the same supposedly overpowered abilities, but now they get in trouble every time they use them, or have random annoying or frustrating things happen to them. This doesn't balance the game - it makes the game less fun.

If you feel mages are too powerful, then there are lots of options in the game to make them less effective, or house rules if you want to go even further. Fluff solutions to a crunch problem are bad, though. It can come off as passive-agressive or spiteful, and it often is.

Posted by: puke Apr 25 2011, 03:48 AM

Wait, my Rush "2112" tee-shirt wasnt cool? You're only telling me now?

Posted by: CanRay Apr 25 2011, 03:52 AM

Personally, I'm still amazed it took decades for a video game to come out based on it.

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 25 2011, 05:22 AM

Nope !
Nazi Movies or WW II Movies with English Actors trying to speak German....:Hillarious
"Ihr boesen Schweinenhunden"

With a derailing Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Grinder Apr 25 2011, 11:40 AM

Back to topic, please. Keep in mind that the board language is English.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 25 2011, 11:57 AM

Party-Pooper.
And i stay with my first comment in this thread.
Fluff will do nothing to fix strong mages. Crunch will.
Racism will not fix mages either. Background Count will.
If you wanna go with racism, have it raise the BGC. Bam, fluff and crunch fix.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 12:01 PM

"You fail to cast the spell, because the universe HATES you, you stinking mage."

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 25 2011, 12:02 PM

i'm fine with that.

Posted by: Grinder Apr 25 2011, 12:54 PM

Neither cool nor funny.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 12:58 PM

I thought it was funny.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 25 2011, 01:29 PM

I was thinking about writing Spielverderber instead.
Fact is, you can't fix mages without changing the rules.
Because everybody who could tell it's a mage would have to be a mage too.
An Anti-Magic-Terror-Group could procure HUGE quantities of FAB3 and aerosol-carpet-bomb seattle for example . .
This would get rid of most anything in the city . .

Posted by: Grinder Apr 25 2011, 01:57 PM

I've read/ understood it as an insult towards me.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 02:03 PM

If he wanted to insult you, I think he could've done better than 'Party Pooper'.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Apr 25 2011, 02:07 PM

As others have said, the problems with magic are mechanical not thematic. Magic is A) Good, or at least no worse then anyone else at everything B) Hard to counter without magic. It has no ceiling on capabilities and is very very versatile. That and lets face it a lot of the spells wern't very well designed.

Eliminate sustaining foci or bring back some form of the grounding rules. (My personal version allows you to ground to targets on the same plane but not others. So for example if you throw a fireball on the astral at a dual natured target you get a fireball effect on the astral centered on the target but no matching effect in the meat world.
Enforce line of site, if a mage can't see it they can't affect it. I also require this for sustaining, if a mage can no longer see the target he's sustaining the spell on he can't sustain on it anymore.

Posted by: Grinder Apr 25 2011, 02:10 PM

True that, but I would had appreciated it much much more if he just posted no reply to it.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 02:26 PM

Wasn't Grounding called the possibility to cast spells from one plane to the other? Since SR3 at least this is no longer possible. Reintroducing it would actually make magic more powerful. By RAW you could not do what you did in your example. In SR4 all spells only affect the plane they are cast upon. PERIOD. Moreover indirect Combat Spells cannot be cast onthe Astral Plane at all.
A) How could you make anyone invisible with this houserule? B) How can a mage sustain any spell on himself?

Mages are as good as mundanes at everything? Tell me how do you use magic as effectively as mundane means to:
- Control the Matrix?
- Control Drones?
- Take out Drones?
- Socially interact with people?
- Do several of the above without massive Karma expenditure?

All PCs are powerful and all have their niche. I don't see any more problem witha mage than with other characters.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 02:37 PM

Those are all obvious, except the last one. There is *some* balance in the game.

Posted by: Cheops Apr 25 2011, 02:47 PM

Why the hell would anyone be angry or upset in the Utopia world of SR4? Just in the Barrens I guess but everywhere else people are living in a post-singularity virtual world with magic that allows environmentalism, transhumanism, and communal living that is unimaginable in our real world. The only reason SR is still gritty is because of past editions and because the devs wink and tell us it is.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 25 2011, 02:56 PM

I'll say it again: "First Rule Of Combat: Geek the Mage First!"

As soon as anyone does any spellslinging that's obvious, or a spirit shows up, every team that's trained in the Sixth World immediately starts looking for signs of the magician in question and puts EVERY bit of firepower on them as soon as possible.

It's worse than being a Machine Gunner today.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 03:33 PM

Except a starting mage can cast spells in any listed background count (except -12) by overcasting.

Speaking of the -12 background count: that is the lowest one listed in street magic, but I believe -12 is only the lowest possible for inhabited areas of space. Uninhabited areas should have an infinitely negative BC, and areas inhabited by a single person (like some guy who got in a pod and flung himself to the edge of space) should be far beyond -12.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 03:34 PM

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 03:52 PM

Read the rules. Any starting mage will become temporarily mundane at a BC of unaspected +/-6 as BC reduces his MAG Attribute by its absolute value.

What makes you think that there can be a BC of less than -12? The lowest concentrations of Mana are called voids and range from -12 to -7. How much less than no mana can there be? Moreover what would purpose would a lesser value serve? Not even (unnamed) Great Dragons can cast in a void of -12! Being able to have an effective MAG 1 in a -12 Void would mean starting at MAG 6 initiating 7 times, and buying 7 increases to the MAG Attribute for a PC or NPC. That is a hell of a lot Karma (I'm to lazy to calculate exactly how much). Oh and don't forget the measly Force 2 Spell is as draining as a Force 14 spell.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 03:52 PM

Being forced to overcast is not nothing.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 04:00 PM

Slip of the tongue. I meant he could cast into a BC of anything better than -12.


If it's possible to use mana in a space, then how can there be none?

Posted by: Apathy Apr 25 2011, 04:24 PM

If YOU are in space, and you're a living thing, and living things generate mana, then the immediate area around you isn't a completely hard mana vacumn. A single individual only generates an infintessimally small quantity of mana, but if you're mr uber-mage with magic 13 then maybe you will be able to scrape it together and use it to cast that force 1 fireball that nevertheless kills you with its force 13 drain...

Edit: Incidentally I agree that regular background count is the natural 'crunch' counter to magic.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 04:27 PM

Ah Ok. Still at +/-11 an overcast Force 12 spell would become a "scary" Force 1 and still 6P+Modifiers drain.


All a high level initiate has is his own mana.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 04:29 PM

THen along come the scary NPCs with their GM-sanctioned metamagics that let them keep manaspheres in their pockets.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 04:31 PM

Huh what now?

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 04:34 PM

How raped would the PCs be if they were stuck in an astral void, while that Bad Guy isn't affected by it?

Posted by: CanRay Apr 25 2011, 04:39 PM

You mean an Aspected Background Count, or Domain?

Yeah, my group really hated it when I they had to extract someone from a Catholic Orphanage that had one of those...

Jesus was literally watching them, and boy was he pissed off when they tried to snatch the kid!

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 04:40 PM

No no. A negative background count which affects everyone BUT the Bad Guy. Tremble before my evil handwavium!

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 04:41 PM

Yeah, the point is though that he could, and distance is no object. There would be no way whatsoever to hide completely from magic under the -12 minimum rules.
If you have a couple fortifications on the mage, and another mage constantly healing him with low force spells, then a 7 magic mage could nuke anyone anywhere (literally) by chipping away at his target's health.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 25 2011, 04:45 PM

Read up on how the magical healing works. it's not quite that easy i think.
Furthermore, read up on ritual magic. It's a bit harder than:"i wave my hand and on the moon something goes poof"

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 04:49 PM

Yeah, I don't understand your scenario, longbowrocks. What does -12 have to do with anything? Why are they in space, to hide?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 04:55 PM

Not posible. Negative Background Count cannot be aspected. So it affects evceryone. Domains (which are aspected) only range from +1 to +6.
LOS still is an issue, and even optical aids have a limited resolution. Don't forget cover.
I'm not sure what fortifications you are talking about, but I know of no item that increases the MAG Attribute. Power Foci only give bonus dice. So apart from being reduced in BC as well a mage who is made mundane by BC remains that way no matter how powerful a focus he binds.
Healing spells are touch range spells and you may not change that in a newly designed spell.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 04:58 PM

Absolutely. But imagine if a GM handwaved some metamagic or enchantment that lets NPCs (and only, natch) 'carry' additional mana with them, so they use that mana when their encounter negative background count. Or a portable domain, maybe?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 05:02 PM

If the GM does not play by the rules it is even easier to achieve TPK. I doubt this in the interest of either the GM or the players.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 05:17 PM

You can do that, albeit at a penalty. It's called astral hazing. Makes your average situation much worse, but the extreme ones can be better.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 05:20 PM

The target is in space to get away from any sort of aggression towards him. We're arguing two things (kind of):
1. Whether the depths of space is a -infinity BC, or just -12.
2. Whether the depths of space with one inhabitant (the runaway) is less than -12 BC, or just -12.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 05:24 PM

I admit I haven't looked up magical healing yet. I'll check that out.

The mage could avoid rituals by using an optical scope if there are no planets in the way.
As for the complexity of rituals, it takes a few hours and a material/sympathetic/symbolic link, right?

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 05:27 PM

You can only use sympathetic and symbolic links if you have the Sympathetic Linking metamagic.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 05:29 PM

Yeah, but the mage would need to initiate once to cast into BC -12 anyway.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 05:29 PM

It'd have to be ritual, because you literally could not get LOS. Even a simply sheet of material would block it. How is someone going to survive in 'the depths of space' anyway? I still don't understand the scenario. I guess it's a purely theoretical question.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 05:33 PM

Yeah, it's theoretical. Basically give up your life in order to be free of any retribution by intelligent life. After some time you'd go insane, starve, or die of old age if you brought enough materials, but no one should be able to hurt you from outside.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 05:36 PM

Except with missiles and lasers. You might as well posit that suicide is an effective protection against anyone else killing you.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 05:38 PM

Sounds like your average CEO's long time business plan.

1. Live forever.
2. ????
3. PROFIT.
4. Repeat Step 4.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 05:41 PM

Hehe. Still, in a thread about 'fixing mages', I just don't think hiding 'in the depths of space' is feasible, for anyone.

Posted by: Nath Apr 25 2011, 05:46 PM

Step 1) get a line of view on someone who can do it
Step 2) cast Control Thoughts on him
Step 3) resist drain

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 05:46 PM

Yup Aside from not being able to do much magic, what about the temperature, the vacuum and the radiation?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 05:48 PM

… EXCEPT an AI! They just need a little spaceship with solar panels (dunno if that constitutes 'depths of space'). The communications delay would *suck*, but they'd be 'alive'. Whatever that means for an AI, and not that they were vulnernable to magic in the first place.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 05:50 PM

Control thoughts does nothing to the matrix or drones. Control thoughts can manipulate people, which have to be present, which is an obvious drawback to doing the stuff directly. Moreover the mage can only issue an order in the Action phase after he cast the spell. This should give the informed victim ample time to call for backup. Lastly a failed attempt at mind rape is much entails much more dire consequences as failing to negotiate/con.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 05:53 PM

That's not quite true: it works on the *person* using the matrix or drones. Saying that magic doesn't control the drone is like saying the rigger doesn't control the drone, just his commlink.

I assumed it was a joke anyway, because you can easily make Awakened characters who are excellent hackers, riggers, etc.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 06:08 PM

Don't missiles and lasers have max range? Also they need to be able to target something from launch. I don't think you can just point one into space and say: "There's a guy somewhere out there. Find him and kill him."

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 25 2011, 06:11 PM

Well, in Space, there is no real maximum range, as long as you have fuel . . get up to speed, stop using fuel, only burn short time for course correction.
Lasers are a bit harder, but theoretically much easier with the whole point and kill.
Also, if you do not care about collateral damage, simple sensor package and software. scan, find something that looks like it may be something that harbors life.
Aim, kill.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 06:11 PM

I think it goes without saying that someone in orbit/space is that little bit more difficult to kill. Can we move on?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 06:16 PM

NO. Moving on is not allowed. We haven't considered the ramifications of a SECRET DROID MOON BASE… on mages. Maybe they have lasers or something.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 06:19 PM

"Life support.... FAB III canister.... Life support.... FAB III canister.... what to do, what to do?"

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 06:23 PM

The initial statement was that you can accomplish any mundane task at least as easy with magic. Needing the operator to be present is an obvious drawback, the delay of control thoughts another

Agreed.

We also need dinosaurs..... and pirates!

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 06:24 PM

Don't forget to consider distances that are outside the realm of what is feasible for anything that needs to travel (light or matter). This is a theoretical situation, so the pod can start at the edge of the universe if we like. Unfortunately, magic can still affect it there. Even GM plot excuse distances won't help if voids are limited to -12.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 06:25 PM

… How did the target get somewhere that it's infeasible for light or matter to travel?

And what do you mean, 'unfortunately'? Maybe it's fortunate. You see biased.

Posted by: longbowrocks Apr 25 2011, 06:38 PM

Theoretical situation, so we can set up the parameters to make this guy as inaccessible as possible.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 25 2011, 06:41 PM

Just go to the metaplanes

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 06:41 PM

Theoretically, it's impossible though. Maybe 'hypothetical'. Hehe.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 06:42 PM

If he's theoretical, just leave him out of the situation. Mages can't catch you if you don't exist.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 06:44 PM

I bet they can. They just need a symbolic link, or the right metaplanar quest.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 06:46 PM

They have to get past the Dweller on the Fourth Wall.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 25 2011, 06:48 PM

Dammit, this is flagrant game imbalance. Mages should not be able to beat things that don't even exist!

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 06:52 PM

What about things that exist in RL? Now, that's OP.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 07:27 PM

Everything is better with Dinosaurs and Pirates...

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Apr 25 2011, 07:30 PM

This is why I want Scribblenauts.

Posted by: jizo Apr 25 2011, 08:41 PM

why not just throw a nihilist with a 50P -1/m suicide vest in the same area detect enemies does work against someone who has a hate on everyone/everything only when they are after you specifically (if I remember right)?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 08:49 PM

Because eventually, you will run out of Nihilist Suicide Bombers. There are only so many after all, and it is only plausible for so long...

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 25 2011, 09:00 PM

That's where Persona-Fix-Chips come into play.
Cap with Trode-Net, Personafix loaded into that.
Bam, mass production suicide bombers!

Posted by: jizo Apr 25 2011, 09:32 PM

how much less than 1% of the population

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Apr 25 2011, 10:10 PM

1. AR + Boos reflexes plus trodes
2. Ditto
3. Wreck drone
4. Boost Charisma or Mind Control
5. False argument mundanes also have to deal with massive karma expendatures to have more then one area of mastery. In fact magic is even better at this as witht he right spell choices you can leverage your magic expendatures into being good at other things.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 25 2011, 10:12 PM

Which I believe is the issue at hand.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 25 2011, 10:19 PM

Mage is too powerful? Drugs. Lots of drugs. Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of really nasty drugs that really stress the system out.

Hey, look, burnt out mage!

Posted by: jizo Apr 25 2011, 11:46 PM

quick question that is somewhat on topic, if a person pays for radar cyberware, can they target spells with it?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 12:11 AM

No. Nor ultrasound, in SR4.

Posted by: jizo Apr 26 2011, 12:46 AM

That is probably a very good thing for the perspective of non-mages, can a hologram block LOS, if so a hologram that is visible from one direction only would be a great defense for a street sam or similiar as at least the mage would be forced to look in astral to target the sam

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 12:53 AM

I don't know if a hologram in SR4 can block LOS, or be selectively-visible. Are there rules?

Posted by: jizo Apr 26 2011, 01:02 AM

Projects a trideo hologram into any open space within 5 meters, takes a per+int (2) test to differentiate, sounds like you actually have to look at it which would imply at least some solidarity in the picture, and hey 1-way glass works could work fine if it can duplicate that effect, but afaik there are no rules which say specifically what can and cannot be duplicated, I would think not projecting one direction would cause it to be see-through from one side, but there are no rules I have seen

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 01:11 AM

Mirrored glass exists and is an option, yes. I dunno if holograms count as opaque at all. You could certainly inflict some kind of 'distraction' vision penalty, but actual LOS blocking is iffier. I'm not saying you definitely can't, or even that it'd be unbalancing.

Posted by: jizo Apr 26 2011, 01:12 AM

especially with holo wear from attitude

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 26 2011, 02:28 AM

Well, that is effectively what a Trid Phantasm spell is...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 02:45 AM

Maybe. The consensus is that they block LOS? And it's magic, so maybe they're just better. After all, they talk about special-effects mages, in a world that has incredible computer/holo effects available.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 26 2011, 02:59 AM

Sure, Maybe. But Magic is so much more Nuyen Friendly than the Tens of Thousands/Millions that a good Special Effects CG team charges for their work.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 03:02 AM

I guess. Magic is rarer and should be more expensive.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 26 2011, 03:09 AM

No, don't think so. It would be interesting to see just how many true Special Effects guys there really are out in the world. There are those who think they are good, and then there are the true geniuses in the industry. Those true geniuses are probably a lot rarer than mages are. Hell, Doctors are rarer than Mages are. That should indicate something, I guess.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 03:23 AM

If that's what's needed. I think it's just computers, and they're common as dirt. Besides, how many true geniuses are *also* mages? Fewer!

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Apr 26 2011, 03:31 AM

...orbital bovine bombardment.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Apr 26 2011, 11:36 AM

"Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"

A hologram stops a mage from seeing something, it blocks LOS. This would be the tech rising to counter magic. Magic is, so far, just much more portable.

Posted by: Summerstorm Apr 26 2011, 12:14 PM

I am still puzzled at how "holograms" are supposed to work in the 2070ies. (If i remember correct there were no "true holograms" in previous editions, yes? And i know that holograms are pretty much impossible as you still need a carrier (Either project into mist/fog or have some nano-cloud or something) OR you have to project into the eyes of the recipient... but just "BAM hologram between me and him"- seems impossible.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 26 2011, 12:26 PM

There was a Holographic Emitter in 3rd Edition allready.
How did it work?
just fine, thank you!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 26 2011, 12:58 PM

The point of Technology in Shadowrun is to have access to something that we do not have currently. It is futuristic technology, based upon current technology and theories that are being introduced today. Who cares HOW it works, really, when all that really matters is THAT it works. If we could explain how everything works in Shadowrun, we would alreaady be producing it today.

My 2 anyways...

Posted by: CanRay Apr 26 2011, 03:10 PM

It's explained in universe that almost all windows (Residential, commercial, vehicle) are either heavily tinted or one-way mirrored to prevent magicians from being able to cast spells inside the building/vehicle from outside.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 06:39 PM

My question is still, 'does a SR4 hologram actually block LOS, or is it at least semi-transparent?'. This isn't a silly question, because most holograms in our fiction canon (movies, etc.) are transparent. So they could distract, but not block LOS. It's arbitrary either way, it just matters which they chose.

Posted by: sabs Apr 26 2011, 06:42 PM

A Hologram would not block LOS for Indirect Combat Spells. Also people keep harping about how Smoke Grenades don't block LOS. So I would imagine that if they don't, Holograms don't either.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 26 2011, 07:53 PM

Smoke Greenades provide Penalties to Spellcasting... Holograms should as well.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 07:58 PM

Right, but that's the same as any vision mod. Actually blocking LOS is different.

Do we have rules for holograms giving vision penalties, like smoke? How big is a holoprojector's projection in SR4 anyway?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 26 2011, 08:14 PM

I think it's more like Al from Quantum Leap.
If you pay attention, you will notice he is a Hologram, if you don't, he looks real enough.

Posted by: jizo Apr 26 2011, 08:15 PM

we know they are small enough to incorporate into clothing as in holo-wear, I would expect special effect versions to be larger but starting on the scale of a microchip and moving up does give us a basepoint

Posted by: Yerameyahu Apr 26 2011, 08:40 PM

Not 'how big is the projector?'; how big is the *projection*? The one that's listed next to the printer seems like a little handheld thing.

Yeah, Stahlseele. It's Int+Perc (2), so it's pretty easy to tell the difference… if you look. But does that mean opacity?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 26 2011, 08:52 PM

for simplicities sake, i'd give holograms the same vision penalties smoke grenades give. Just much more focused and stable.