Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2011, 12:40 AM

Attitude has the Iron Will exo-skeleton, a Body 6 Armor 4 suit that gives you 8 strength at the cost of 1 agility and can be upgraded like it was a vehicle. I can't find rules for exo-skeletons anywhere though. Are they treated as armor, a vehicle (anthroform?) or something else altogether?

If they're just a vehicle that you wear it seems they make it really easy to get hardened armor 12 and a huge strength boost.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 2 2011, 01:43 AM

Do you think it grants you the armor? It looks to me like the whole thing is just a skeleton, so its defensive stats should only apply when someone attacks it.

On the other hand, I can see you getting vehicle turrets to it. Or adding a rigger's cocoon to basically make you a metahuman sized engine of destruction.

On the cocoon, the only question is whether people consider that remote piloting.

Posted by: CanRay May 2 2011, 02:32 AM

Yeah, but can you fist-fight Xenomorphs with it?

Or Spirits that look like Xenomorphs (Toxic Beast Spirits? Insect Spirits? Toxic Insect Spirits? ... That last one scared me a lot.)

Posted by: Udoshi May 2 2011, 02:34 AM

Its not any more abusing than making a budget battlesuit out of an up-armored Evo Orderly, now is it?

But still, powerloader. Two things come to mind: Passenger Protection seems to the the most useful, since it helps YOU soak damage. And a Mechanical Arm using the optional-rule for Cyberlimb Capacity should let you squeeze 3 more strength into the Iron Will with Enhancements, for a total of 11 strength.

Which isn't bad at ALL.

Posted by: CanRay May 2 2011, 02:35 AM

Or "The Horseman Of The Apocalypse".

Posted by: Udoshi May 2 2011, 02:37 AM

Actaully, canray, i think the hardest part would be statting up the Xenomorphs to fight it.

I'm sure there's something in Running Wild that would do the trick. Chimeric critters, maybe.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 2 2011, 02:40 AM

Wow. But as far as I can tell, the Evo Orderly doesn't carry passengers. It looks like a sapient drone that cares for the elderly.

Posted by: CanRay May 2 2011, 02:53 AM

Until a Technomancer or Feral AI eats it's OS and suddenly you have a Bad Day.

...

Damn, I sound like Clockwork.

Posted by: Udoshi May 2 2011, 03:21 AM

The orderly is a medi-bed. One person can lay on it.

Its kind of like how the book says drones can't have passengers, but they the crashcart is a drone, and the transys wheelchair is a drone... and any Standard Vehicle, which happens to be Small Drones and up can take a rigger cocoon, which carries a person.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 2 2011, 04:10 AM

Only because the rules are wrong.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 2 2011, 04:14 AM

Alright. I actually looked at the picture this time. It is indeed some kind of medi-bed.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 2 2011, 04:49 AM

The irony is that originally the Orderly was statted up as a humanoid drone and the text had no indication that it could carry any passengers at all.

I suspect that there was a disconnect between the author and the artist. The author had in mind a humanoid helper for the elderly, and the artist got the impression that it was some mobile Valkyrie unit.

Later they realized the conflict and the errata solved the problem in the simplest way possible, by deleting the word "humanoid" from the description.




-k

Posted by: CanRay May 2 2011, 04:58 AM

Wait... There's Errata for something?

Posted by: Rasumichin May 2 2011, 09:54 AM

The thing with toxic insect spirits is that insect spirits are so alien in the first place that we probably couldn't tell the difference between the toxic and normal varieties.
But they'd probably be the closest you can get to xenomorphs in SR. You would have to houserule the acidic blood, but that wouldn't be a problem if you follow the rules for Corrosive Spit/Corrosive Secretions.

If simply looking like a xenomorph is enough for you, though, that has been done already with custom-looking cyberware (even though it only happened in some German sourcebooks, namely the expanded Hamburg chapter in Runner Havens and the Munich sourcebook).
It's not that hard if you can afford full-body replacement with Raptor Legs, Balance Tail and a Cyberskull with maximum Increased Capacity.

Posted by: Summerstorm May 2 2011, 11:14 AM

Aye... we had one playing such a "dude" in out SR3 campaign a few year back. SCAAARY Motherfucker. (He also had cyberskates and once hunted hobos through some tunnels... just for the hell of it *g*)

Back to Exoskeletons: Convert the JIM-Exoskeleton from Arsenal 2060 to SR4. I think i have done so in one of my post a few months back... eh. Can't find it.
That thing is awesome (And Rigging it with your matrix speed/enhancements is totally powerful). It also was pretty cheap.

EDIT: Wait... i can just search for it:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33187&st=25&p=1000459&#entry1000459

Ah there it is:

Well... i think they never retconned anything from previous versions, right? So technically the JIM-Exoskeleton (Arsenal 2060) still exists, just isn't converted. Which i am going to do now. Hm, let's see:

Standart JIM
Body: 5
Armor: 9
System: 1
Sensor: -
Handling: -1
Accel/speed: Like pilot.
Standard Upgrades:
Sealed, Life Support 2 (20 Hour air supply) , Extreme Environment Mod (pressure safe to 600 meter), Mechanical full arms/legs
Avail: 12, 20000 NY

Upgrade JIM
Body: 8
Armor: 9
System: 1
Sensor: -
Handling: -1
Accel/speed: Like pilot.
Sealed, Life Support 2 (20 Hour air supply) , Extreme Environment Mod (pressure safe to 600 meter), Mechanical full arms/legs, Rigger Adaptation.
Avail: 14, 32000 NY

Done. At least that was the thing our rigger ran around with *g*. And it should be available since it DOES serve a purpose. (Underwater exploration and construction). Also... can't you just ask your gm to get you something, Why do you need to modify some existing vehicle.( I know it is just for comparisons in ratings/values) But can't you just make something up? The modification rules are too rigid. Just use your own creativity. (Or use the vehicle design rules from 3rd edition and then convert it to fourth).

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2011, 03:09 PM

It's statted up like a vehicle. You operate it by getting inside. People inside a vehicle benefit from the vehicle's armor. I don't see how it can't grant you the armor.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 2 2011, 03:21 PM

Yup and only FA bursts damage the passenger as well as the vehicle.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 2 2011, 03:43 PM

Logically, though, only if the rounds penetrate the armor to start with. Technically Not RAW, but makes absolutely no sense any other way.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 2 2011, 04:29 PM

Funny old RAW.

Unless the exoskeleton is a complete shell, people can always elect to shoot the passenger *instead* of the vehicle, and they're at a -2 to dodge, naturally. It's probably a mistake to use any part of the existing vehicle rules for something like this.

Posted by: sabs May 2 2011, 04:32 PM

But they get the armor of the vehicle added to their armor. The vehicle rules have issues.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2011, 04:54 PM

This is why I was hoping there were rules for exo-skeletons.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 2 2011, 05:06 PM

Indeed. I wish I was surprised that they threw a new piece of technology into the game without bothering to integrate it or consider rules interactions.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin May 2 2011, 07:29 PM

Yeah, the exo-skeleton is the first instance in SR4 of such a piece of gear, and it doesn't quite fit in any specific category. Big blunder by the devs on not giving a clear indication on how it should be handled.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 2 2011, 07:39 PM

For starters, I can't think of a good reason to give this thing any vehicle upgrades. If anyone else *can* think of a good reason, then they should individually allow each upgrade on a case-by-case basis.

Honestly, I'd just use the existing mil-spec 'powered armor' rules… with appropriate modifications, of course.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 2 2011, 07:53 PM

Are there any rules for shooting through rolled down windows? Because The iron will is like one big rolled down window, without the glass.
In other words, realistically it shouldn't provide you with any cover. In fact, the rules only say it's treated as a vehicle for upgrades.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 2 2011, 07:54 PM

Aren't weapon mounts vehicle upgrades?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 3 2011, 02:58 AM

Yes. Like I said, no good reason.

No, open beds and open windows still count as normal vehicle cover and armor, unless the GM says otherwise. It's an abstract combat system: assume a spherical cow.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 3 2011, 03:14 AM

Isn't the ability to mount vehicle weapons on your character and use them indoors a good enough reason?

Even better. Mount two powerful SS mode guns on the Iron Will. Each one is a simple action to fire, so you get the same effect as a SA mode weapon.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 3 2011, 03:19 AM

It is the worst possible reason, right after wearing (upgraded) vehicle armor. Both of which make cheaply boosting Strength seem trivial. I can tell you're using a different definition of 'good' than I am. Oh well.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 3 2011, 04:41 AM

The Iron Will is pretty much for making Iron Man. Or at least the giant knockoff Iron Man at the end of the first movie.





-k

Posted by: longbowrocks May 3 2011, 05:44 AM

Apparently. What is your definition of "good" in this case?

Posted by: Rasumichin May 3 2011, 12:54 PM

You are mounting these weapons on a drone. Which negates ALL recoil penalties. Don't bother with SS, go FA. The good SS or SA weapons require a turret that's too large for the Iron Will anyway.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 3 2011, 04:49 PM

Technically, with a Body of 6, the Iron Will could mount a single Reinforced Turret, which allows any weapon to be installed.




-k

Posted by: X-Kalibur May 3 2011, 05:48 PM

Full-autop modded Panther Assault Cannon.

Posted by: sabs May 3 2011, 05:53 PM

2 of them, one for each arm.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 3 2011, 06:17 PM

Unfortunately you are still limited to either 2*15 (additional clip) or 19 (extended clip) shots. A beltfed heavy minigun sounds a lot more appealing, whether that weapon is available however is up to the GM.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 3 2011, 06:35 PM

And these are all great reasons why it can't be possible.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 3 2011, 07:39 PM

And equally great reasons to get those upgrades.

Posted by: Rasumichin May 3 2011, 07:46 PM

WTF, i thought we where talking about an exoskeleton, not a light battlemech?
It actually has BOD 6?
That is a light truck, not a medium-sized drone.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 3 2011, 07:48 PM

It is the Loader from "Aliens."

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 3 2011, 07:53 PM

Which is much smaller than a truck. Stupid inconsistent vehicle rules.

If it's the Loader, you should have to use Pilot Exotic. And it maneuvers like a zombie pig.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 3 2011, 08:23 PM

For a troll, it's a straight up skeleton. I don't think a troll could fit into an Iron Will unmodified for oddly shaped metahumans.

Posted by: Rasumichin May 3 2011, 08:53 PM

Ok, i took a glance at Arsenal again and there already are medium drones with a Body >3, namely the Akiyama and the Otomo. The Tomino (a heavy drone) even has a Body of 10.

A Body of 6 is also appropriate for a PMV with cargo module, light trucks are a bit heavier than that.

I was kinda confused by the statement that a reinforced mount can hold any kind of weapon.
They actually can't, you're still restricted from using main guns. That would require a heavy turret, and a Body of at least 14.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 3 2011, 08:58 PM

Probably True, but that is how I see it personally (without having the book, of course). Might change my mindonce I have the actual stats in front of me, along with the fluff text.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 3 2011, 09:00 PM

Those are actual combat (and/or assassination) robots, though, custom-made for cyborg brainjars. You'd expect an anthroform to be much tougher (and heavier) than a skeleton. The Tomino *is* a small battlemech.

But, your examples do illustrate the point that the vehicle stats are inconsistent and crazy. Body is a weird combination of size and toughness.

Posted by: X-Kalibur May 3 2011, 09:23 PM

to further illustrate - a suzuki mirage has a body of 6. A Steel Lynx is body 4. The lynx, per artwork at least, is quite larger than a sport bike.

Posted by: Irion May 3 2011, 09:28 PM

@longbowrocks

Good, are things you may suggest at your table without waking up in the hospital and having a bunch of surgents discussion how to get the Core Book out of your ass and how it got there in the first place.

@Rasumichin

Yeah, I hate those two. I have no idea how they got those numbers.
Every drone of this size has a body of 4 or less. This drone is quite fragil and hard to modify, so lets give it a body of 6...

Posted by: CanRay May 3 2011, 09:35 PM

Body =/= Size in my books, but by RAW...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 3 2011, 09:40 PM

It's even worse the way Body is the determiner of weapon and other upgrades; these are each tenuously linked to both size (or maybe mass?) and toughness. No part of it makes sense.

Posted by: Irion May 3 2011, 09:47 PM

Yeah, and the simplicity of the construction. It is easy to get to work at an old Ford(meaning you are able to change a lot), but try this with one of the new cars.

Posted by: CanRay May 3 2011, 09:50 PM

Don't get me started.

REALLY don't get me started.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 3 2011, 10:04 PM

Aw shucks. No need to compliment us that much.

Posted by: Rasumichin May 3 2011, 11:00 PM

The Ares knockoff is even know as Madcat.

Although i'd say that they should come back when they weigh 20 tons upwards, are operated by their own fusion reactor and can mount main guns if they want to play Mechwarrior with the big boys.



If they had a Body of 3 or 4, people would ask why the fuck they should bother with cyborgs when every normal 400 BP streetsam can take them apart.
Unless they choose a battle tank as their body, but we can't have that as the standard cyborg, as they have to be humanoid in their default form because of genre conventions.

Don't try to make me explain their stats from an ingame perspective that goes beyond "oh, they're experimental combat drones and cost ten times as much as other drones of their class" handwaving.
Walker-type vehicles operate on rule of cool anyway. Giving a vulnerable humanoid shape with easily damaged joints that are already stressed from an exponentially increased mass a higher structural integrity rating than a good, old, reliable, standard-vehicle box shape doesn't have an explanation besides "it's cool, let's just roll with it".

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 3 2011, 11:07 PM

I'm fine with Body-as-toughness. The problem is just that it's Body-as-toughness-and-size-and-moddibility. :/

Posted by: Rasumichin May 3 2011, 11:18 PM

Well, we could introduce completely new and revolutionary concepts such as a Customization Value, add info about vehicle size, number of seats and number of doors, hell, maybe even put in bits about fuel consumption and tank volume.

If any part of the rules changed for the worse in SR4, it's the vehicle rules.

Posted by: Seerow May 3 2011, 11:43 PM

Yeah, the GE Heavy Autocannon is a solid choice, being relatively cheap, and availability 20 makes it within the availability range with restricted gear, and being a minigun with good base damage stats. It's like having a full auto, minigun, modded Panther Assault Cannon.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 4 2011, 12:00 AM

I'll rephrase: Any small arm.

Personally, I'd go with two regular turrets, one with an Ingram with underbarrel MGL-12, and the other a sniper rifle maybe with underbarrel laser.

And a Panther Cannon hand-held.







-k

Posted by: CanRay May 4 2011, 12:12 AM

Or go completely ghetto and mount a Streetline Special just to completely confuse the GM.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 4 2011, 12:18 AM

Making things more complex. As a self-declared powergamer, and computer scientist, I guarantee you that has never backfired. Please, be my guest.

Posted by: Rasumichin May 4 2011, 01:05 AM

The Vanquisher is also a main gun, so you'd have to save up for a Tata Hotspur to have something to mount it on.



Nice choices, but i'd go with a Thunderstruck with underbarrel GL-67 as the handheld and would put two Vindicators on the weapon mounts, operated by piloting programs and used for suppressive fire as need be. It has to be Vindicators on the turrets, can't pass up that NO RECOIL advantage. On top of that, miniguns are best for suppressive fire, and suppressive fire is a prime use for shoulder/back-mounted weapons, whether on cyberlimb weapon mounts, their equivalent on military armor or on the turrets of that exoskeleton thing.
You won't fire all of these guns personally at the same time and the limited dicepools of piloting progs are no issue when you just hose bullets around.



Now that you mention it, there where some balancing issues with SR3 vehicle rules, but there'd be other ways to fix them than "lets simplify everything to the point where people constantly have to handwave things and nothing makes sense anymore". Particularly when some of these simplified rules introduce new balancing issues as well.

I generally like Arsenal's approach of limiting modding opportunities in contrast to earlier editions, it works fine for guns if you are willing to compromise a bit on plausibility in a few special cases, but the way it was pulled off in regards to vehicles just feels grating in general.
I repeat : vehicle rules are the big weak spot of this edition. Not only in regards to how Body is handled, but it's one of the main issues for more reasons than how to handle modding (see : dysfunctional damage scaling in War!).
These issues are not a result of more complexity, but come from a backfired attempt to cut down on it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 4 2011, 01:26 AM

Yeah, I liked Rigger 3 best (warts and all).

Posted by: Udoshi May 4 2011, 04:30 AM

I've....

.... actually seen this. I don't think it was a streetline special, but it WAS a holdout.

Much to my shame. Or rather, our groups new rigger who was just learning the system.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 4 2011, 04:42 AM

Couldn't he just look at the numbers? Even the number of letters in the word 'holdout' is less than the number of letters in 'heavy pistol', not to mention every number in the table (including price).

Posted by: Seerow May 4 2011, 04:51 AM

Maybe he wanted a really concealable weapon mount? :iiam:

Posted by: longbowrocks May 4 2011, 04:58 AM

I almost said something similar: "maybe he wanted everyone to think his weapon mounts were empty".

Posted by: Udoshi May 4 2011, 05:03 AM

Were I outfitting a cyborg, Lasers would almost definitely be involved. Since standard vehicles(small drones and up) can recharge power points over time, its a good, reliable investment.

You can fit plenty of extra damage in Cybergrenade launchers in your limbs.This is one area in which the 'mechanical arms get cyber capacity' rule actually makes plenty of sense.


Still.

I can't believe you guys are harping on the Iron Will.

The steam-themed dragon drone is hilariously cheap and effective for what it does: a Weapon Mount, on a Mini Drone, for less than 500 nuyen. Signal chips are hella cheap, too. Its what the Dragonfly wants to be when it grows up.