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Posted by: Chance359 May 4 2011, 09:46 PM

So my semi muchikin question is can I optimize my comm link for empathy software to get an extra die for my social skills? I never have a commlink capable of running rating 5 or 6 software, but I keep getting drafted to be my tables face I'm looking for a way to increase my social skill pools.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 4 2011, 09:56 PM

Why get the Commlink mod when you can get Optimize rating 2 and run rating 5 Empathy as if it was a rating 3 program? Add in Ergonomic and you can run Empathy 5 and it doesn't count as a running program when calculating Processor Limit.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 4 2011, 09:58 PM

Add ergonomic to make running easier? Did you say that solely for the pun?

Posted by: DWC May 4 2011, 10:08 PM

Getting the commlink optimization for Empathy is probably well worth it. Mix it with the Optimization program option and you can get your 7 dice out of an R3 commlink.

Posted by: Chance359 May 4 2011, 10:11 PM

I know how much GM feels about empathy software so i dont want to push it to much.

Posted by: Udoshi May 4 2011, 10:35 PM

The Commlink Mod does work.

however, program mods on Sensor Software do not. Its not Common Use, so it has no available options.(Sad but true)

Posted by: KCKitsune May 4 2011, 10:39 PM

I don't think GM's give a flying fig about the Empathy software because it's expensive. I think what has a GM's shorts in a knot is the Emotitoys.


@Udoshi, where do you get that info?

Posted by: CanRay May 4 2011, 10:45 PM

As a GM, I don't hate Emotitoys. Of course, I like explosions, so...

Posted by: Chance359 May 4 2011, 11:02 PM

My GM and I have agreed that with cybereye's built in camera linked to my comm link I can run empathy softtware with out an emo toy.

Posted by: Udoshi May 4 2011, 11:03 PM

Well. Basically, options are available for specific categories of software. You can find the list in the options section, but i'll save you the trouble. Common Use, Hacking, Autosoft, Simsense.

These are all regular program types available in the core book.

The problem is, unwired adds all these options, but doesn't give any support for the -new- program types it -also- offers.

Sensor Software(such as empathy) is incapable of taking Program Options because it is not Common use, or Hacking. Its not an autosoft, nor a simsense(BTL, activesoft, skillsoft are available types). Its a unique different category of software with its own cost and availability called Sensor Software.
And sensor software doesn't have any compatable options. Therefore, it can't take any.
This also applies to other types of software, such as Agents/IC,(though their Payloads may have options) Tactical, Telematics Infrastructure, etcetera.

.... its a stupid rule and I, personally, belive Common Use options should apply to pretty much everything.

The Commlink Modification, Optimization(unwired 198) - not to be confused with the Common Use Program Option called Optimization - is far more compatable with any program. Make the mod, pick a specific program, get +1 dice pool modifier to all tests involving that program.

Posted by: DWC May 4 2011, 11:12 PM

Sensor software also doesn't have an entry for writing your own, or anything in WAR about acquiring it in ratings higher than 6. It seems more symptomatic of the sloppy nature of Unwired and WAR! than any intent for Sensor Software to not follow the rules that all the other software in the game falls within.

Mentally, I guess I'd always handled it as overpriced Common Use software, since it has no legality restrictions.

Posted by: Udoshi May 4 2011, 11:44 PM

My emphasis on quites.

Actually, it does. unwired 119. There's 9 program types, before expansion books, and options only apply to 4 of them.

But yeah, i believe it touched upon said sloppy nature of unwired's new software categories. The whole thing is not very integrated with its own rules, and it should be. Sloppy design.

However, I do agree with your solution.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 12:36 AM

For many people, it's a waste of that one Commlink Optimization 'slot', but sure, you can do it.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 5 2011, 02:56 AM

That hasn't really been a safe assumption in my experience and personally I don't allow them at my table at all since 6 dice is just too high to mesh with what I want from my games. At a potential 6 dice, Empathy software is simply too damn powerful to ignore so I'm rather loathe to prevent the "middle management" types of the shadowrunning world have at least mid-rating or higher via emotitoys. Problem is, that just leads to near ubiquity and just giving everyone X bonus dice in every situation accomplishes little more than giving characters with low social skills a big ol' buffer against glitching. And personally, I really like social glitches. They can be fun as long as everyone's got a good attitude and the GM remembers that non-critical glitches are more of an inconvenience than a disaster.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 03:01 AM

There've been lots of threads about 'fixing' Empathy soft, though. I think the simplest is to use the mechanic of other sensor softs (Lie Detection, maybe?), and roll the Rating as a DP that grants a +dice equal to hits (no Edge). That way it's variable, and about half on average. This would be even more okay with the proposed commlink Optimization (+1/3 instead of +1).

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey May 5 2011, 03:01 AM

Anyone running electronic Social augmentations in any of my games Glitch on 1s and 2s. You get more dice, but you are way more likely to say the wrong thing at the wrong time or otherwise offend someone. The human animal is eerily capable of sniffing out a machine, Voigt-Kampf style.

Further, Emotitoys do not exist in the SR universe that I run in.

<3

Posted by: CanRay May 5 2011, 03:06 AM

There's also the fact that it's damned hard to pin down human emotions from, well, anything. Culture shift is a major problem for humans, forget computer code.

EDIT: Good example? Voice. Most Voice Recognition Software in North America is made in the USA, and is set for an accent that I have no idea what it is. My "Northern Ontarian" accent was enough to cause the system such conniption fits that it doesn't even come close to funny.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 03:07 AM

That's a pretty coarse way of dealing with it, though. If Empathy software still exists, then someone would invent something like an emotitoy. Maybe it would be more expensive, maybe it would max out at lower ratings, but someone would put it together. Besides, that's only a small part of the problem: yes, emotitoys are too cheap, but Empathy software—period—is the problem. Runners tend to have the good comms and available sensors to run it on, toys or no.

Better solutions are to limit the impact (reduced max Rating, or the suggestion I made above), make it unreliable (above), increase the cost, make it dependent on various sensors (like TacNets), etc. (Incidentally, the roll-and-add-hits idea also has the benefit of being a higher-rating program, which means higher System/Response requirements.) All of these (and many other) ideas can be found in the various threads about it. It's almost always better to tweak than just delete.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 5 2011, 03:20 AM

Yeah, that'd be fine. I just removed both the toys AND the software for my own convenience, really, since I feel that it doesn't make much sense to have one but not the other available, although admittedly the price disparity is wonky. If someone really loved the idea of having a li'l drone with 'em all the time I'd be willing to meet the player halfway and nerf emotitoys and empathy software down into Smartlink territory. That way I'd feel less compelled to make them a more common part of the setting and when they did show up they wouldn't single-handedly bootstrap Joe Wageslave up to 5+ dice (and rarely glitches) territory.

Posted by: Irion May 5 2011, 11:36 AM

Allow it only to read emotions. Square and fair.
(May be give it a +1 to any kind of social interaction.)

Posted by: Chance359 May 5 2011, 01:36 PM

I should have mentioned that this would be used in a Missions setting.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 01:41 PM

Ha! Yeah. The way you mentioned GM feelings confused me, cuz they obviously don't matter in that case.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 5 2011, 02:11 PM

Eh. Commlinks are cheap. Run it on a dedicated commlink. Problem solved.




-k

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 03:45 PM

They're *not* cheap, if you're running anything good. That only multiplies the System/Response cost, but yes. I said, 'for many people'.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 5 2011, 03:55 PM

Most Voice Recognition Software is formulated to the http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/standardamerican/ accent. This accent isn't used by anyone except people who have spent an excessive amount of time and money to learn how to speak properly.
I don't know anyone besides myself who uses a palatial glide(or ju glide or y bridge) when saying words like "new" or "Tuesday."

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 03:57 PM

That's probably not a valid point in 2070, though. Their computing resources (speed, storage, bandwidth) are unimaginably greater.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 5 2011, 04:03 PM

Not to mention the fact that globalization means everyone is using citispeak anyway.
But consider super formal languages like Sperethiel, in which an incorrect emphasis changes a meaning entirely. While computing may be able to keep up with it, the human brain, mouth and tongue's ability to make the words come out like you want them to may not.
The same might be able to be said about Empathy software. Sure, the softweare can sink up with the speaker, but can you sink up with the software? Not a relevant rules question, but if I have a face rolling 20+ social dice, it's certainly something I demand her character to have put some consideration into.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 04:24 PM

If that's the angle you want, you should make the bonus a direct skill mod. Then, it's subject to a base-skill cap, reflecting that more skilled faces are better able to use the software suggestions. That may or may not be a good solution, but it's one option. It also makes the bonus useless to face-adepts, etc. (Good Thing™)

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey May 5 2011, 04:25 PM

I'll point out a really handy feature of my house rule of Glitch on 1s and 2s for Emotion software:

If a user has exceptionally high dice pool (14 or 15 before the software), they statistically almost better off not using Emotion software at all. They can use it to get an edge, pushing themselves to much greater capabilities, but will crash and burn pretty hard from time to time. The software gives them the ability to 'turn it up to 11', but with some nasty consequences.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 04:31 PM

I was always partial to using the Empathy Software as an assisted Teamwork Test. Roll the dice, net hits add to the PC/NPC, no more net hits than base skill. I think that you mentioned this above. It works out pretty well in my opinion.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 5 2011, 04:34 PM

I have no problem with the rules as they are. None of my players use empathy software, but that's because my players aren't really eager to read any of the books. I'm lucky enough that it's never been a problem and if any of them manage to get past the vehicle, armor and weapons section of Arsenal, I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.
Like I said, it's not really a relevant rules question, but faces should have ideas about the use and abuse of such software.

I do insist that if my players have a specialization in a field of expertise, that they consider their character's opinions and theories and idiosyncrasies about such stuff. Like have my samurai give their personal combat preferences and why. None of it has any rules consideration, Crane Style Adpets roll as many dice as Savate Adepts, but it helps round out the character.
I usually ask players a write a bit about their job, or degree or something, and then consider that their character has as many opinions on Matrix Coding/Magical Theory/Tactics as they do about office politics.

Posted by: James McMurray May 5 2011, 04:38 PM

I'm on the side of "no problems with the software" too. Two PCs in our group have emotitoys: the elven Face who uses it to up her pool to 20 and the shifter physad who wouldn't have a pool without it. NPCs have them too, though not all of them. All Johnsons do, or they meet somewhere that emotitoys can't go (like the Matrix or the Astral).

Posted by: Makki May 5 2011, 05:02 PM

Reading the Optimization text in UW p198, I can optimize any device for any program...
Optimize my drone for Pilot, optimize my Smartgun for MRSI software, optimize my commlink for Firewall...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 05:05 PM

If the GM approves, sure. I doubt you want to optimize your comm for Firewall, though. *shrug*

Posted by: Fortinbras May 5 2011, 05:40 PM

If you consider Firewall a program, does it count towards your processor limit?

Posted by: James McMurray May 5 2011, 06:23 PM

Firewall is definitely a program (SR4A 217). There's nothing that says it wouldn't count, but it doesn't seem like that's what the devs intended. Since you can have a firewall as part of your OS or installed separately, maybe only the ones that run on their own should be counted?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 06:29 PM

Firewall is a Device Attribute (Even though it is a program) so it does not count towards Program Limits.

Posted by: TheWanderingJewels May 5 2011, 06:32 PM

Speaking of Engineering Empathy...

http://af.reuters.com/article/southAfricaNews/idAFLDE7430U720110505?sp=true


Reavers anyone?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 06:32 PM

I'd say that System/Pilot and Firewall aren't 'real programs', even though they're software. It's just easier that way: keep them separate, no messy loopholes, etc.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 5 2011, 06:40 PM

Why wouldn't a Device Attribute count against Program Limits if they are, indeed, programs?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 06:44 PM

Because that's a mess. It's much better to decree that they're 'programs', but not Programs.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 5 2011, 06:50 PM

While I agree, I would like to arm myself against this argument when my hacker makes it a month from now when she discovers the Optimizing option. Rather than making a flat out Draconian ruling, I would like to have a valid reasoning in my corner.
Thusly, if one can rule that Firewall or System can be Optimized like a program, do they count against processor limit like a program. Why or why not?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 07:02 PM

I'd say yes, because then they're a running program. However, this isn't a good 'balancing' tradeoff: running program limits are a nearly-meaningless penalty.

I can't imagine, however, a tenable argument that they're programs enough to Optimize, but not enough to penalize. AFAIK, they're also ineligible for Program Options. The clearest, simplest, RAW-coherent ruling is that they're 'not really Programs'. Certainly they're not Common Use, Hacking, Simsense, Sensor, etc. (as demonstrated by the Programming table).

They *are* software, so they can be created/patched using Programming tests. They're apparently *not* susceptible to Bugs, because there are no Bugs available for them; ditto for Viruses. I take this as more evidence of a categorical distinction between System/Pilot/Firewall, and everything else.

Still, 'because I said so and that's stupid' is among the best possible reasons for a GM ruling. ;D

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 07:41 PM

Because they are alreasy accounted for with another stat/attribute. And because Firewall is purchased outside of the normal rules for Software. It is the epitmoe of a Common Use "Program" but is not statted like one for purchase purposes. Therefore it is not beholden to the rules that govern normal programs.

And because Yerameyahu's explanation makes so much more sense. They ARE SOFTWARE, they are NOT Necessarily Programs.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 5 2011, 07:57 PM

Think of System and Firewall as running on firmware. They are a part of the computer, but yet separate from the main computer.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 07:59 PM

In certain aspects, they literally are firmware. At least, I think the book calls the System's persona aspect "firmware". Certainly System includes parts of the computer that we'd call firmware today.

Looking at the other categories of Programs, I think they're all acceptable targets for Optimization. Autosofts, Tacsofts (only applies to *tests*, which a tacsoft does occasionally make), Sensor softs: the one-use limitation of Optimization makes all of these balanced enough, unless you think it should cost more than 500¥. While the argument that comms are cheap isn't really valid for high-rating programs, it's a decent little bump for cheap or Optimization-option stuff.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 5 2011, 08:15 PM

I am a very big fan of clusters. Get a 'Runner with a whole lot of Alpha cyberware and cluster them together. This allows you to run a whole boatload of programs on the cluster and just have them link into the commlink. The programs don't have to run on the commlink to be used by the commlink.

Now here's a question for everyone here: When you consider what cyberware is a separate peripheral node, do you count all the different mods of a cybereye/ear? I was of the opinion that a cybereye/ear would only count once because those parts are not really a separate piece of gear (unlike a RADAR sensor or Ultrasound sensor in a cyberlimb). I then thought about how you can get them as mods for a biological eye/ear and each mod would count as it's own peripheral node.

If the answer to the above question is yes... A hacker only needs one real commlink... and a decent amount of Alphaware. The distributed computer that one can make is... insane.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 08:35 PM

I consider all of that to be munchkinly crap, though—even without the cherry-on-top of counting mods. Nothing personal, of course; I'm not saying you're a cheater or something. It's just that clustering should have a drawback, and the device ratings of 'ware can't possibly have been intended to allow this. It's at least as abusive as the demonized emotitoy (which is primarily hated because it costs vastly less than the Empathy software and node it replaces).

Luckily, there's little need to bother: the program-limit penalty is a wrist-slap at worst.

Posted by: Dez384 May 5 2011, 09:36 PM

The drawback is that if you get hacked or crashed, you lose everything. Your Firewall and System are limited by the lowest rating of everything clustered, so you realistically wouldn't have ratings above 4.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 09:46 PM

Nah, it's all slaved behind the super-comm. Hmf.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 10:29 PM

Why?
Alpha Grade Cyberware clustering is only Rating 4, to be sure. But Beta is Rating 5, and Delta is Rating 6. Of course, it will take a long time to get to that point, but by the time you are there, it is all good.

And of course, it is still all slaved to the Super Comlink that you likely have, as Yerameyahu pointed out.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 10:40 PM

Well… you should never get there anyway, so it's not really the point. Chargen or nothing. This is Missions we're talking about.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 10:45 PM

Missions... That's right. Delta Grade is only a Wet Dream in Missions. Heh... Sorry for the distraction.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 03:59 AM

But slaved isn't the same as clustered. Salved devices are using up that subscription limit and clustered devices are drawing down your Response.
I think what he's talking about here is making all your cyberware one big node, which, frankly, is a hacker's wet dream. Get through your Firewall and make your Wired Reflexes my personal concubine. Don't mind if I do.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 04:16 AM

No, no. The cyberware is all clustered, and *that* is slaved to the one commlink (with the good Firewall and IC). It's not an offensive tactic; you're using your own gear (to get a lot of something for nothing). Even if it were possible to do it to someone else, I don't think it'd *do* anything. "Take this! … You now have an extra node, mwa ha!" You're just talking about vanilla 'ware-hacking—which is its own whole mess.

Anyway. Regardless of the tactics, I still don't agree with cyberware (and other similar) clustering; it's just horribly abusive. Those device ratings, which are only based on a GM-friendly shorthand in the first place, are for easily determining hacking defenses. A betaware datajack is not a free 5/5/5/5 commlink (Fairlight Caliban upgraded is 12000 for a 5/5, plus 5000 for the OS parts). It's even worse for the deltaware version, which costs 5000 and has Avail -- (compare to something like 9500+11000+6000 = 26500, Avail 16, plus 2000 to implant it).

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 04:26 AM

I feel like I'm misunderstanding something here. If something can be hacked, can't it also support you attempts to hack back?

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 04:28 AM

Okay, I see what you're talking about.
Depending on the cyberware, that leaves a whole boatload of exploits for both the GM and hacker. Your cyberarm is ostensibly the exact same device as your cybereyes and Analyze software? The glitch possibilities are endless! All my players do is DNI. Sad GM.
On the other hand, get within mutual signal range, or get your linked up Adept or spy drone to do it for you, and that hacker has his "Exploit"able run of ALL your cyberware in one roll against a Rating 4 device once he gets that commlink's Access ID.
God help you if you decide to slave it to your team's hacker and bump your clustered cyberware's Signal up. God help you, chummer.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 04:35 AM

I guess. You're assuming they get through the 'gate' commlink; if that happens, the whole team is *already* screwed, regardless of shenanigans. It's probably not a valid assumption, because that's exactly what the gate is there to stop anyway. If the rest is slaved, you *must* go through the gate, or have direct physical access (… to his implants). You can also make multiple clusters, as many as you have implants for. Some maniacs even claim there's no need to cluster, that their implants each count as solid comms individually.

longbowrocks, I don't understand the question.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 04:39 AM

Ah, nevermind. I read your earlier comment and thought you said cyberware clustering was impossible.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 04:44 AM

I think it shouldn't be allowed, but the clustering rules in general are a complete vague mess. We should have clustering rules, and … we don't. There are no real requirements, tradeoffs, or penalties. And that's for things with actual stats! Doing it in conjunction with Device Rating stats is just nuts.

None of this is really related to Empathy software, sorry about that. :/ I got distracted, it's an old argument.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 04:44 AM

Gate link, schmate link. Spoof that sucker's Access ID and now you have the totality of his cyberware at your disposal.
Unless it's all DNI connected to a wired commlink, in which case I'm not entirely sure how it is superior to regular DNI cyberware.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 04:48 AM

I'm really not sure what you're suggesting (Spoofing is a really slow method, one command at a time), but you'd have access to his cyberware *anyway*. It's not really a big difference if it's a couple fewer nodes, especially given how vague and requiring-massive-GM-fiat the cyberware hacking rules are. You're right that it's a weakness, but it's the same weakness that everyone, everywhere already has. And if you've got someone running a bunch of free betaware 5/5/5/5's with IC (as I've seen suggested), it's actually worse.

Obviously, that's once again outside of the typical Missions scope, though. :/ Doubly off-topic, whoops.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 04:56 AM

Sorry, I'll try and be clearer.
If you have the "gate" link's Access ID, which shouldn't be too difficult, and can get within mutual signal range of his cyberware, again with the Adpet or spy drone of Infiltration or whatever you like, then you don't have to hack the commlink or anything else to get control of the whole of his cyberware. All you have to do is Spoof the ID of the "gate" link against a Device Rating of 4(like 8 or 10 dice) to tell that cyberware to do whatever you want.

While this is generally useful to spoof things like Wired Reflexes or Smarlinks, to have all cyberware obey your Command with one Complex action is a pretty powerful tool.
This is made doubly fun if this clustered cyberware decides to slave itself to the team hacker's commlink, boosting the Signal of the clustered cyberware in the process and negating any trouble getting within mutual signal range might cause.

The only way I can think to negate this is if the clustered cyberware is DNI to a wire from head to datajack or commlink(or Skinlinked), in which case I'm not sure what the benefit of clustering the cyberware would be.

EDIT: One Command at a time is all you can manage in the Matrix anyway, but if your guber has all his cyberware clustered you can give one Command( e.g. "Shut Down" or "Overload") to devistating effect vs. Commanding one piece of cyberware at a time.
And who is giving away this free betaware and IC??? Where can I sign up.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 05:01 AM

Right, but I wouldn't call that "control of the whole of his cyberware". I'd call that 'one little command at a time access to one piece at a time of his cyberware, if you don't fail the test'. I guess I could see a GM letting you send the same 'stop' command to everything, but that'd be a significantly powerful little oversight on his part. Because the clustering rules are vague and crappy, we can't even really say for sure if 'shut down' makes all the cyberware turn off. Maybe it just turns off the cluster-node, leaving the rest to function as normal. (As a cyberware-clustering hater, I do love the thought of your suggestion, though!)

I'm not sure that being slaved to something with a high Signal magically raises its Signal, either. Slaved nodes forward connections from themselves to the master; the master doesn't forward connection attempts from itself to the slaves. I assume the tweaker has his non-commlink Signal ratings dialed down to 'off', and is using skinlink.

The main reason to cluster the cyberware in the first place (at least, the one suggested earlier in this thread) was to create a massive pool of 'running program limit'. A secondary (and much more compelling) is one or more cheap, high-quality nodes; I've even see people suggest throwing Response upgrades into the 'ware, though it's cheaper to get deltaware datajacks. (No essence cost if they're in another limb.)

If you check my numbers above, the betaware (and even delta) is massively cheaper than the honest equivalent, and the original suggestion was to use 'ware that you already had. That means any additional functionality is free, something for nothing.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 05:13 AM

No more overpowered than clustering all your cyberware. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. All that cyberware, once clustered, is one node. One device. The command "Shut down" to one device shuts it down. I don't see how that is either overpowered or an oversight.
EDIT: They are the ones who decided to turn all their cyberware into one big thing, so they cannot the decide, once spoofed, that it is still several smaller things. Either your cyberware is one big clustered node, capable of being given one command, or it's several piece of individual cyberware with the usual processor limit. the choice is yours.


Your right, it doesn't. But if you want your clustered cyberware to be withing mutual signal range of the "gate" link and your hacker is however many meters away, you would need to boost your cyberware culter's Signal to communicate with it. The master node needs to be able to give the device the Command "Do the Thing", but the slaved device needs to be able to communicate with the master if "Do the Thing" runs into errors or anything else that requires mutual signal range. The same idea comes up in TacNets a lot.


The guy who suggested this idea originally(in this thread) suggested alphaware, so I was going off of that. If this gets into things like deltaware, by that time everyone has a +infinity sword of insta death, so that's a bridge to burn when you come to it.
I'm just saying that doing such a munchkiny thing as clustering your cyberware to up your running program limit leaves you far more vulnerable to Electronic Warfare as opposed to Hacking.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 05:21 AM

Oh, I get you. I couldn't imagine why the hacker would be several meters away from… his *own* cyberware. You meant other people.

While I certainly agree that they should be punished for trying it, the clustering rules are (I can't say it enough) such a mess that it's probably wrong to assume that 'shut down everything' works. We had this long thread once considering the consequences of things like clustering drones and stuff, but the basic idea is that clustering can't really do what it says it does. :/ I let that bleed into my reading of your argument, whoops.

I still don't think it'd work, though. Everything should be skinlinked, and you'd have no way of knowing it was there anyway, except possibly by a wide-area Detect Hidden Nodes action. Even if we're not just talking about the hacker and his own 'ware, *they* should be skinlinked to their own main commlinks as well, which would then be slaved. Either way, no wireless to receive the spoof, and no easy way of knowing where to spoof anyway. Right?

The only reason I brought in deltaware is that a deltaware (6/6/6/6, though you'd prolly disable the Signal) datajack has Avail -- and costs 5000. That's not +Infinity. You might keep them from that kind of abuse by not allowing a delta clinic, but the beta version is still pretty bad (and even cheaper). A (free) 4/4/4/4 is still nothing to sneeze at (total retail value like 8500?), and you could arguably upgrade the Firewall pretty well.

Posted by: Dez384 May 6 2011, 05:35 AM

Just crash the cluster than spoofing a command to tell them to shut down.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 05:39 AM

Yeah, that's Fortinbras's suggestion. It's a good one, and I'd probably use it if I let the situation happen in the first place. I'm not sure what Missions would do. Between the half-baked clustering rules and the half-baked cyberware-hacking rules, I don't think it's safe to guess.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 05:40 AM

While I agree that clustering is wonky at best and wobbly at worst, if someone is going to come at me that a cluster is one node, I maintain that cluster gets treated like one device. As I understand it, that's what clustering does.

"Should" is the operative word in "should be Skinlinked." But if all of that is so, what's the benefit of clustering your cyberware?
It's still working off Device Ratings, yes? If not, why not just copy and paste all your Firewalls all over the place anyway?

+Infinity sword of Insta Death is a reference to a VERY old gaming comic which claimed that wizards in AD&D sucked because by the time they got any good spells everyone else had a +Infinity Sword of Insta Death. Really old comic. I was saying that by the time your crew has access to a boat load of deltaware they are staring down the barrel of Lofwyr's snout without blinking, so the clustering of cyberware and it's implications are a little beyond consideration.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 05:44 AM

Yeah, and I *do* appreciate the 'screw you' iron justice of it.

I think it's fair to assume skinlinking under all circumstances. But you have to use clustering, because otherwise they're peripheral nodes, and can't help you run software. And yes, you *should* do that with your Firewalls, as I implied above.

I realize that, but I'm saying that the datajacks cost next to nothing and have 0 Avail—they don't qualify for that.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 6 2011, 05:48 AM

You could only spoof the 'ware itself if it has a signal range to begin with.

If everything's hardwired, you'd have to attack the commlink directly.





-k

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 06:05 AM

Is a datajack a device for the purposes of running programs? What commands could you give it? "Be a brain plug!" or "Keep being a brain plug!"

I'm just saying that if all your cyberware is DNI or hardwired, I don't see the point of clustering it. The point of clustering is to help prevent the cyberware from being hacked by increasing it's processor limit, yet that yields it more vulnerable to Electronic Warfare. All of this if made moot if you just DNI your cyberware, but then it has less ability to communicate with others, the reason for clustering it.

If you are talking about hackers using their cyberware as devices to cluster to increase their processor limit, they'd need Deltaware in order not to drop the Response and System below the relatively cheap cap of 6, and if they have the money for Deltaware, they probably have the cash for a couple extra Responses, so I've yet to see how that's a thing.

Posted by: PoliteMan May 6 2011, 08:00 AM

*shrug* Clustering a bunch of Alphaware to get some extra processing power seems like a cute trick to get some extra processing power. I think Fortinbras counter is reasonable, although it seems like something that would happen more on accident by intent. After all, it's unlikely anybody is going to realize you've clustered all your cyberware unless they've already hacked in and taken a look around. Kinda seems like a stretch to say you could find out something like that on an Analyze roll. I would imagine the majority of the time it'd happen if someone tries to spoof, say, your cyberarm and then watch in surprise as all your stuff shuts down. Yeah, it would make hacking cyberware a semi-reasonable tactic but I can't remember the last time someone tried to hack cyberware and there's no way for them to know hacking your cyberware is a semi-reasonable strategy.

Now the deltaware is different. Ignoring multiple deltaware datajacks, even one at chargen gives you a free quality commlink at far below cost. While the image is kinda cool, if anything should be hacking it's the cord into your brain, that's probably time for a GM discussion.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 09:07 AM

If you are giving your players deltaware at chargen, you've got more problems than clustering, omae.

Posted by: Daishi May 6 2011, 12:02 PM

I lean against letting the Optimization bonus count towards Empathy software for social situations since it's not actually part of the test per se, it's a dice pool bonus. When I read "applying a +1 dice pool modifier for all tests using that software," I'm thinking that means the software has to be part of the test description. E.g Hacking + Exploit uses the Exploit program, but Negotiation + Charisma doesn't use the Empathy software as the test. It's just a dice pool on top of the base skill and attribute. It's a bit hair splitting, but I feel more comfortable this way.

On the other hand, Optimization (Agent) is always hilarious for the non-hackers.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 01:19 PM

Actually, The Point of Clustering is to create a system that can use software, with greater limits than the associated Comlinks could produce, from something that could not previously do so.

A cluster of 2-3 Delta Grade Datajacks is far cheaper than the Equivalent Comlink. Which is Yerameyahu's point. You get the functionality of a Rating 6 Comlink with greater capacity than that Rating 6 Comlink, AS WELL AS the Functionality of a Datajack when needed (by declustering). Something for nothing...

I will say this, though. It is nice to have the option to cluster your 'ware in a crunch situation. I would not run a cluster consistently. If I wanted greater processor limits, I would use a Nexus. But when you are in a bind, captured, equipment removed, but you still have access to your 'ware, it is handy to be able to cluster that ware for a rudimentary Comlink that is capable of using whatever stored programs you may have thought ahead to store in internal memory somewhere. I see it as a sort of emergency application, rather than something that I would do on a consistent basis.

Posted by: Makki May 6 2011, 01:28 PM

isn't a Credstick device rating 6? I could just cluster a hundred of those...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 01:35 PM

Sure... Again, something for Nothing.
Of course, carrying around all those credsticks gets to be a bit annoying...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 02:04 PM

No, and it shouldn't be. That's what clustering sneakily fixes.

I've already explained the point of clustering, and it has nothing to do with hack-proofing. Skinlinking is SOP for *everything*, and doesn't decrease communication ability in a way that matters.

6/6/6/6 is not "relatively cheap", nor is it chargen-available, and I've already pointed out just one of the deltaware abuses. It also works, as I said, just fine with betaware, and it's still an issue with alphaware.

While increasing the processor limit was the suggestion here, the real effect of clustering is creating free standard nodes (without, as Tymeaus speculated, disabling their base function in any way).

Credsticks actually aren't Device Rating 6, since Unwired. They realized how absurd it would be if people deliberately misunderstood what Device Rating was for, so they gave explicit Peripheral Node stats: credsticks are 2/2/6/6, to resist being hacked. It's too bad they don't have the time to give such stats to everything, but the GM should certainly feel free to do so at need.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 6 2011, 02:11 PM

If you slave the cluster to the cyber commlink then you can't hack the cyber without going through the commlink. Also, the cluster can run a whole host of IC to protect the commlink from getting hacked. So I consider a cluster essential, but only if you have alpha or better cyberware. Standard grade bodyware only has a rating of 1... worthless. Getting betaware is the best 99.99% 'Runners are going to get, and that's where clusters shine.

As for clusters not being able to run software... there are real life clusters (Beowulf) that run on really cheap hardware that can do some pretty amazing things. IN 2072 Shadowrun, computer hardware is so damn cheap that they put computer circuits in your fracking underwear. So the idea that higher grade cyber has under utilized processing power is not world breaking.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 02:14 PM

Had not noticed that they fixed the ratings of Credsticks... Good to know...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 02:18 PM

Anyway. Back to Empathy software: to run it at high rating (unless you houserule program options), you need a nice system. You also want to run basically all the other nifty sensor softs, all the time. It might just be easier to wear a laptop-nexus or something, but the basic idea is plenty of processor limit for those, IC, subscriptions to all your friends, Agents… a hacker who doesn't have to choose between programs is a happy hacker.

KCKitsune, I certainly agree that clustering should exist. But if you incorporate hardware into a beowulf, it doesn't keep doing its original job seamlessly, and almost certainly has to be physically co-located; SR4 clustering doesn't impose either restriction. For implants, there's just no reason to assume they put in anything extra, and clustering is *repurposing*, not skimming.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 02:32 PM

Which is why Technomancers are useful. No worries about Program Limits, everything can be up at the same time.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 02:42 PM

Only if they CF or thread the dozen+ programs I'm talking about. Seems harder.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 6 2011, 02:45 PM

They should have made credsticks 1/1/6/6. Why would you need a signal for something that you slot anyways. Seems pretty damn stupid to me.

@Yerameyahu: Why would the cyberware have to be repurposed? I mean there is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen that allows you to run a separate OS while running your current OS. For a cyberware system, this would work out like this:

• Processor power would first go to the original function
• Then Processor power would go to system checks (minor system hit)
• excess processor power would then go into the cluster pool.
• The cluster pool would then act as a node for running software.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 02:53 PM

They would indeed have to CF them (or thread them) of course. Have an interesting People Watcher charactrer in mind pulled from the PACKS, with this very concept in mind. It is pretty nice to be able to have all 40 or so (possible) CF's running simultaneously. It is difficult for a Hacker to do the same thing without a lot of work, and nuyen, at making it possible. It is heavily Karma Intensive though, which is liikely the issue keeping a typical Technomancer from accomplishing such a thing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 02:57 PM

Because you no longer have to slot that Credstick to use it?
Whether it is stupid or not really depends upon how secure you want your money to be. How many people use online banking these days? Most do so due to the illusion of security that is present. If everyone knew how easy it was to compromise such things (for people with the know how), they would not use it. Hell, I know how easy it is, and yet I really like the convenience of it. Go Figure.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 6 2011, 03:02 PM

OK, I can see that, but anything higher than a signal of 0 would be insane. I mean with a signal of 1 you have a range of 40 meters. 40 METERS! Isn't that a little overkill? Signal of zero would give you a range of 3 meters. That *should* be plenty for something that you slot.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 03:14 PM

Yeah, I know, it is a bit crazy... I agree that Signal 0 is more than adequate.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 07:20 PM

I agree, Signal 0's plenty for a credstick, but oh well.

KCKitsune, I'm saying that I don't see cyberware having *any* extra capacity at all. Why would it? It's a single-purpose embedded device. Clustering it would be like people installing Linux on their VCR: messy. You're comparing it to general purpose computers: non-peripheral nodes.

And there *is* no minor system hit. There's no tradeoff or penalty at all.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 07:22 PM

A Deltaware datajack costs 5k. A Rating 6 Response costs 8k, 4k if you make it which most hackers do. All of that is assuming that a datajack is a cluster-able thing, with it's own System and Response and everything. I don't think a datajack has a device rating as it doesn't have programs to run. You can't give a datajack a command.
Now a Cyberarm or Wired Reflexes or what have you, I'll grant that those are cluster-able, but those are also way more expensive. Far more expensive than just getting a new Response.

And no good sentence ever started with the word "Actually,"

8 grand for the Response, 2 for the Signal, 3 for the Firewall and 3 for the System. That's without building your own and using Piracy. In that case it's about 6 grang total. After that, all you need is the Response to start clustering, which is still cheaper than deltaware, unless you are using datajacks as Devices, and even then it's only a little cheaper. It ain't cheap, but it's cheap compared to deltaware. It's certainly not more of an "abuse" than clustering commlinks or anything else.


This is what I'm talking about when I said that the point of clustering was to make things more difficult to hack.
Yes, it does make the cyberware more difficult to hack and allows it to run IC, but it makes it easier to Spoof and it lets a Hacker, or more likely Rigger, be able to give one Command to your cyberware and have it effect ALL your cyberware.
This can be negated if you run your cyberware off a Skinlink or DNI, but if you do that the it's not hackable anyway, so I don't see the point of clustering it to begin with.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 07:49 PM

A 90% pirate discount is pretty massive, and you're leaving out the initial cost of the comm 'chassis'. I already showed the math above. It's massive't cheaper than getting an equivalent comm the honest way, and it's Avail -- instead of Avail 16.

Again, it's not about protecting the cyberware from hacking per se. It *can* run IC, but that's not the reason for doing it. The reason is processor power. I dunno how many times I can answer the same question.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 08:16 PM

Except folk like KC say that's the point of clustering. My reasoning is to them, not you. I think your point on that issue, unless I'm very much mistaken, is to just DNI or Skinlink your cyberware to make it unhackable/spoofable, thus making the need to cluster for the sole purpose of making it less hackable is pointless. I totally agree.

The only piece of deltaware I can find that is cheaper than a Response 6 commlink is a datajack, which I maintain isn't a device as their aren't commands it can carry out. Maybe low rating cybereyes and ears without any upgrades, but if somebody is willing to do that just to get a rating 6 device, I think I might just give it to them. While getting access to deltaware doesn't technically increase it's Availability, it's pretty implicit that tracking down a delta clinic is work in and of itself.
I'm just saying that clustering cyberware isn't any more munchkiny than clustering anything else.
As to whether clustering itself is too much of a munchkiny thing to do, I can't really say. I can see both sides of that issue. It's never come up in any of our games, so I can't speak from experience.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 08:32 PM

I agree: cyberware aren't devices in that sense. There are people who claim they are, bleh.

I guess I misunderstood KCKitsune. I didn't think the message was 'cluster because it protects from hacking', just a side-mention about being able to run IC if you wanted. After all, this was originally brought up as a way of running Empathy software; hacking had nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Dez384 May 6 2011, 10:38 PM

So teeth compartments are listed as cyberware, which can be taken as deltaware, which has a device rating of 6...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 11:13 PM

Oi Vey !!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 11:27 PM

But if you start clustering those, you'll have an unfair advantage over hillbillies and rednecks.

Posted by: Mäx May 8 2011, 09:28 AM

Nope, you can optimize the commlink, but the +1 bonus only applies for using the empathy software to make a judge intentions test, as thats the only test the program is used.

Posted by: Mardrax May 8 2011, 02:04 PM

Surely a datajack can run self-diagnostics as well...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 8 2011, 02:49 PM

Much Like any Other piece of electronic equipment.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 8 2011, 10:37 PM

That's what your commlink is for, checking peripheral hardware for glitches. It'd be an Analyze roll.
If your datajack could run an Analyze program on it's own, then it could run any program on it's own. Were that the case, it would be a commlink. Were that the case, no one in the Sixth World would need a commlink at all.
A datajack is a piece of hardware interpreting brain signal into electronic signals. It has enough to do without software.

Maybe those old, ASIST datajacks from 3rd that otaku used...but that's a whole other can of worms.

Posted by: Mardrax May 8 2011, 10:59 PM

The Analyze program needs input from something in order to analyze it. This input is provided by sensors within the device.
Also, the datajack has an internal data storage and chipreader.
Like all cyberwear, it is by default capable of wireless interfacing, so needs modem functionality for that.
All this beside having the modem functionality you described.
It's a full fledged device, hence has a device rating, and is a node. So can be clustered.

It is not, however, a commlink, as a commlink is especially designed to run an OS that allows it to run all of these nifty things we call Programs.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 9 2011, 12:02 AM

If that's the case, then the datajack has an OS provided by it's System Rating determined by it's Device Rating. If it has the capacity to run an Analyze program, why does it not have the capacity to run a Data Search program?

Posted by: Mardrax May 9 2011, 12:12 AM

It doesn't have the capacity to run either an OS or any Program because it's a peripheral node. The same holds true for credsticks and your imagelinked sunglasses.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 9 2011, 12:32 AM

Peripheral nodes, indeed all nodes that want to do a thing in software, have to use a program to do it. They do have an OS, it's their System rating.
The difference is that peripheral devices can only run programs they were designed to run.

So, what programs is a datajack designed to run?

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 12:35 AM

Probably only drivers.

Posted by: Fauxknight May 9 2011, 01:35 AM

I agree, commlink optimization does not affect socials tests that are boosted by empahy software for exactly the reasons stated.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 02:12 AM

I just want to put in again that the peripheral node limitations are *the* reason for clustering.

That's a good argument against allowing Optimization on Empathy. It's not really ironclad, but it's fair.

Posted by: Mardrax May 9 2011, 11:45 AM

There is, however, a great deal of difference between these programs, and Programs.

A datajack runs software to at least allow it to perform the functions I have noted above. It needs to translate normal signals into ASIST signals, be able to run chips on its own, modem electronic signals into some kind of magnetism to allow it to communicate wirelessly, and translate whatever sensor output it has to a format that's understood by a standard Analyze program. Beyond that, it of course has a dedicated OS and firewall to run as well, plus presumably a UI to allow the user to use the OS to turn all of this functionality on and off.

Posted by: Dez384 May 11 2011, 01:54 PM

Does anyone else find it weird that empathy software doesn't act like other sensor software? Most sensorsofts use their rating as a dicepool, but empathy software adds its rating to your dicepool. What's up with that?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 02:23 PM

Yeah. Like I said, changing that is one of the easiest fixes, and satisfyingly coherent.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 02:27 PM

It does both, actually. If you are using it in a Sensor, it can act just like any other sensor. If used directly in opposed tests, it adds its dice to the character's roll. In the latter instance, I personally prefer using it as a Teamwork Test, adding a number of dice to your test based upon the sensor's roll, to a maximum of the Character's Skill Rating, just like any other teamwork test. But RAW adds directly to the skill test. The one balancing factor in that is that the system requirements for higher rated Empathy Software requires a higher rated system to run it. We do not use the emotitoy as it is written. You want Empathy Software in a stand-alone package, you use either Camera's or Drones. *shrug* Whadda ya gonna do?