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Posted by: IKerensky May 5 2011, 11:35 AM

Hi,

I am planning to start again my SR campaign but I feel the character were to strong the last time... Even since the start using basic rules. They were very seldom indangered by opposition.

Magic user in peculiar were gamebreaker (adepts less than caster but even them), overcasting and spirit summoning make them far too strong, especially as spirit aren't enough limitated in the rules and are so damn fast to summon even on the flight. Mind control, healing or invisibility spell rules, the same than social adept talent they can ruin a scenario very fast by controlling NPC.

I fail to really hurt them in battle because of the amount of concealable armor avaliable, I had to resolve for all opposition to use narrow burst of APCR wich make a lot of the gear in the book totally useless. And even when I hurt them the mage wave his hand and cure it all.

Drain was a great disappointement, especially Overcasting drain who was a plain joke. Magician just doesnt really care about it as it was very easy to cancel/heal.

The only way I feel out of it would have been to resort to true Munchkinism but that is a way I dont want to follow.

Anyone with a set of rules/house rules to produce less strong characters and more lethal background ?

Posted by: Hagga May 5 2011, 12:03 PM

Use the background count rules. Add in magical opposition - my favorite are insanely devout catholics who know healing magic, counterspelling and banishing and nothing else. If your mages are walking all over you, you simply aren't using the rules correctly. Huge amounts of concealable armour? Are you applying stacking penalties correctly? Spirits are quite limited - they're also quite strong. They're also very draining to summon at a useful force. Remember to use object resistance rules. Add a few points to that NPC's willpower and feel free to fudge rolls to prevent him being mind controlled, and keep in mind that he's got a damn good idea of what is happening to him (eventually, when he thinks about it) and if he isn't dead he's going to do something horrible to the PC's if it is within his power.

Posted by: Blade May 5 2011, 12:53 PM

Drain doesn't magically heal and if you apply all modifiers mundane healing is often not enough to heal all damages.

But before changing rules, I think you'd have to think about what it is you exactly want.
For example, for damages do you want:
- The troll tanks/heavily armored guards or cyborgs to be still difficult to hurt?
- The characters to spend a month in the hospital after each run?
- A punk with a light pistol to be able to kill a streetsamurai?
- A heavily armed opposition to be able to completely wipe out your PCs in a single round?
There are a lot of possibles fixes, but each one of them will have side-effects and the choice you'll make will have an impact on the tone of your game.
In my games, I wanted all characters to get hurt easily (even troll tanks), but tough character to be able to survive longer. That's why I decided to boost condition monitor (8+Body instead of 8+Body/2) and remove the soak roll (armor automatically absorb (rating/2-AP) damages, and non military grade armor degrades quickly after a few hits).

So rather than say "Drain was a great disappointement", tell us what you want drain to be and we'll be able to help you better.

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 12:55 PM

huge amounts of armor means that you're taking LOTS of stun damage.

You need 27 dice of body+armor to reliably not take stun damage from your standard short burst from an ak-97 (When you absolutely have to kill every mother in the house)

remember bodyx2 is the armor limit, before encumbrance. I prefer body+strength but thats' a different story. So with a 4 body, I can wear roughly 12 points of armor before encumbrance. (That's with abusing the formfitting body armor) 16 soak dice, reliably gets you 5 hits. Sometimes more, occassionally less. Throw in short bursts and people start falling unconcious pretty quick, even without APDS or ex-ex rounds.
Again, Overcasting. You need 18 dice to resist casting force 6 spells consistantly all the time. Use counter magic, use background counts. Adepts are not any more dangerous than a well built Cyber-Sam.

Getting super-crazy high drain resist dicepools is hard.
Willpower(7)+Logic(9) only gets you to 16, and those numbers are hard to get. If you blow a ton of cash and bp you can get willpower(8)+Logic(10) but that's really the top end.

Posted by: Loch May 5 2011, 12:58 PM

Background Count (Street Magic p. 117) is your friend for dealing with powergaming magicians. Although really, the less the GM knows about magic, the more powerful it is in-game (the reverse is true with the Matrix).

Armor doesn't really matter when you use things like elemental damage, be it fire spirits, a haywire security system, or just the corpsec grunts toting stick-n-shock rounds to make sure they catch those felons ALIVE for questioning and sentencing. I'm not saying you bust out the laser cannons immediately, but if they're walking everywhere in full combat armor, that becomes a more appropriate response rather quickly.

Or you could do what I did and sic a bunch of hulked-out paracritters on them if they just keep shooting first and asking questions never. I've never seen a gunbunny lose his taste for fighting so fast

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 5 2011, 12:58 PM

While throwing a lot of magicians to attack your PC's is cheesy, since they are rare, you could always use spirits against them too, with the Magician summoning spirits and sending them over to attack the group, never showing him/herself.
Also, summoning spirits on the fly, is quite difficult and draining, unless your magician have both drain stats maximized and a summoning focus.

Posted by: Sengir May 5 2011, 01:18 PM

Killer security vs. mages: The building lights switch to strobe once an intruder alarm is triggered. Issuing guards cheap flare compensation glasses is no biggie, but a mage without cybereyes gets a -4 modifier for all spells and can safely be considered distracted for other tasks (like summoning).

If the action is not in a building, flash-paks do the same trick.

Posted by: Warlordtheft May 5 2011, 01:19 PM

For increased lethality things to kkep in mind regarding NPC's:

Group edge for low level mooks:set at 2, 3 for mid level mooks. High level NPC's get their own edge (all mages are high level NPC's). Use it to go first, shoot straighter or other wise frag with the PCs.

Overcasting:Yeah, they do realize this physical damage from overcasting can't be healed magically?

Armor:After each attack that hits reduce the armor by 1 impact & ballistic (an optional rule I use).

Spirits have edge, use it. Also be aware of all the spirits powers and have a general plan for how the spirit will use them.

Security plan: How will security react to an intrusion. How long till back-up arrives?

Rember-well equipped guards have ultra-sound sights--unlless it is a cake walk standard guards could have cheap 2nd hand cyberware (older editions this was hard to justify--but lvl 1 wired reflexes can cost as little as 10K nuyen.

Remember that each attack reduces a defense roll by 1.

Layered armor does not have the same concealibility as armor by itself.

Stick and Shock works both ways. Also, nonconductivity is a really cheap.

Magical support is the only reliable counter to magic. Use it, cause if the target is important the guards will have magical support.

NPC's should remember to use cover and spread out (why I prefer to use maps in combat).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 01:23 PM

And yet, the Mage could have those same cheap Flare Compensation Glasses.
After all, they are not using the glasses to target anything. So no worries there.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 01:27 PM

[quote name='Warlordtheft' date='May 5 2011, 06:19 AM' post='1066523']
Rember-well equipped guards have ultra-sound sights--unlless it is a cake walk standard guards could have cheap 2nd hand cyberware (older editions this was hard to justify--but lvl 1 wired reflexes can cost as little as 10K nuyen.[quote]

Since Brand New Wired Reflexes 1 only costs 11,000 Nuyen, the used stuff is downright cheap at 5,500 Nuyen.

Posted by: CeeJay May 5 2011, 01:33 PM

Just two more things regarding magic:

- Casting of high force spells is very obvious (Perception test with threshold 6 minus force of spell). This makes 'controlling NPCs' in the public quite difficult...

- Make liberal use of wards! Wards are quite cheap and are a good way restrict the the mobility of spirits.

-CJ

Posted by: Wesley Street May 5 2011, 01:34 PM

@OP. Limit your PCs to 300BP in charagen. It doesn't stop min-maxing but it definitely makes "standard" obstacles more formidable. Also, if the only challenges you're throwing at your players are ones that can be overcome via combat, you're not offering up enough diversity in-game. Mix it up a bit. Perhaps an adventure can only be overcome with investigation or some sort of diplomacy or negotiation. Your players may be sensing that you're only offering up one kind of obstacle and are modifying their characters to compensate.

Posted by: nezumi May 5 2011, 01:39 PM

I don't know how new you are to the game. SR has layers of mechanics, so it's hard to master everything at once. If you are new, I would recommend you pull in one area (probably physical combat), master that, then move on to magic. The rules are complex enough that grabbing everything at once will result in a GM missing details, and that results in unexpected power shifts. If it's too late for that, just review the rules and maybe give some examples of play so we can critique your rules understanding.

Next to that ... armor is cheap. It comes with penalties though. Make sure those are enforced. If they are, well, why aren't your guards wearing armor too?

Defenses should always have layers covering each other. So have several perimeters, passive and active detection, magical and matrix overwatch and drones. If your defense is missing one of these, the PCs will exploit it and stomp all over everything. Also remember targeting; hit the mage first (at a distance and concealment, if possible), then the rigger, adept, street sammie and decker, in that order. Try to match your attacker to its target. Rigger or sniper vs. mage, sniper vs. adept, mage, magical critter or decker vs. street sammie, decker or rigger vs. rigger.

If the PCs are still busting everything, check out drones. They're much more immune to magic, they can carry heavier hardware and armor, they can be networked together to always use the optimum tactics (and provide indirect firing data, so you can have a tiny drone spotting and a big gun much further behind).

Posted by: Blade May 5 2011, 01:44 PM

Since we've drifted towards a "non house-rule fixes" discussion, you can solve all your problems with a single thing:
Drones!

Drones don't care that you're wearing a heavy armor, you won't stay up very long against fully compensated long bursts.
Drones don't fear your stupid stun spells and your useless mana spells.
Drones don't find your pornomancer attractive.
Drones see through your magic invisibility.
Drones can't be mind-controlled by magic.
Drones do have a tendancy to listen to the hacker rather than their own orders but I guess you can't have everything...

And seriously, when you compare the price and maintenance cost of a security drone to the salary and equipement cost of a metahuman guard, you figure out that drones should be much more common than most GM think they are. Sure they can be hacked, but it's not THAT easy, especially when you have many of them or a spider/rigger to keep an eye on them.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 5 2011, 01:57 PM

What kind of opposition are you using? If it's just gangers from the Barrens, then 400bp characters are certainly going to destroy them. They might get in a few lucky shots, but mostly the PCs will win easily, because 400bp is just a lot more than the gangers are built out of.

CorpSec gets a lot of force multiplication from having a well-thought out plan to deal with intruders. Instead of just posting some guards in a couple of rooms, sit back for a couple of hours and really think out: if I were security director, how would I make sure no intruder lives longer than a few seconds once detected?

How well do you know the game system? It could be that you're overlooking important rules, particularly magic rules, which makes it too easy for the players.

If you're stuck without ideas on effective tactics, recruit the players. Run an adventure where they're hired to defend a base against NPCs who happen to have the same kind of powers and use the same kind of tactics that the PCs use. Watch how the players deal with it, and learn.

On to some of your specific comments:
Overcasting:
* It's extremely visible. All spellcasting leaves magical signatures that take a number of Complex Actions equal to the spell's Force to clean up, and last for Force hours. Overcasting is easy on the forensics guys.
* Physical Drain

Drain
* Can't be healed with Magic, and First Aid will not always heal the whole thing.

Easy Healing
* Generally healing, with First Aid or spell, takes a number of Complex Actions or even Turns equal to the damage to be healed, to complete. This means that healing will delay the PCs, giving security time to prepare a response, close down escape ways etcetera.

Armor
* A Body 5 character can wear up to 13 points of armor (of which 6 concealed) without Encumbrance penalties. (Enforce those penalties!) That means at most 18 dice to resist damage, for an average of 6 hits. Guns do at least [4+Net Hits] damage; so with a bad gun a security guard needs to get in 3 hits post-Reaction to do damage; not great. But if he has a Ruger Super Warhawk with Ex-Ex, he does [7+Net Hits] and -3 AP; then the average damage at 1 net hit is already 3.
* Tasers and Stick-'n'-Shock have AP -half. Against the well-armored dude above, SnS on a DV4 gun does an average of [Net Hits] damage, instead of [Net Hits -2]. On a Ruger, it does [Net Hits +4] average.
* You can also use bursts and auto fire instead.

Professional guards use
* Tacnet
* Smartlink
* Specialization on their main gun
* Good ammo
* Good gun

Also, try concentrated fire: one guard uses Suppressive Fire to distract most of the PCs, while all the other guards shoot at the magician. That's -1 die to dodge per shot; soon enough he's not dodging but dying instead.

Drone turrets with guns have no recoil and can't be mind-controlled. Wired, not wireless; likely too much work to hack. Not even all that expensive really.

It's not munchkinism for a security director to use technology optimally. That's just being a competent security director.

Posted by: Sengir May 5 2011, 01:58 PM

If he's casting spells he does...

Posted by: Blade May 5 2011, 02:02 PM

* Home Ground (the place they're defending)

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 02:02 PM

Mages wearing contacs/glasses will have problems with spells fizzling in their face. Indirect Combat spells will often explode at their glasses. Which means eating a firebolt to the face. Enforce the LOS and window/mirror issues.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 02:08 PM

No He Doesn't... he is not using the "Sense" of FLare Compensation to cast Spells (Flare Comp cannot be used to target). A Pair of Sunglasses does not impede Spellcasting.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 02:09 PM

Spells do not originate at the Eyes. Where do you get that?

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 02:15 PM

Indirect Combat spells generate a spell construct at the point of origin (the caster) which travels down the mystic link to the chosen target.
As they travel down the link to the chosen target such effects may be impeded by physical obstacles or mana barriers. They may impact transparent obstacles (such as glass) and do not “bounce” off reflective surfaces used for line of sight.

It's an interpretation, but given that /sight/ is a key component of the mystic link, it's valid. You run into issues with the ManaSight Goggles, but really that shit is broken anyways, so I don't particularly feel bad about that.

Direct spells though, those work great through glasses.

Posted by: Irion May 5 2011, 02:18 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
You need a free LOS.

No, it does not. As long as it is optical.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 02:26 PM

Your LOS IS FREE. Your magic does not shoot from your eyes (Your not Cyclops afterall). I agree that Indirect Spells will likely impact any intervening barriers, as they should. But GM Dickery of having Indirect Spells impact Sunglasses is Stupid.



And Flare Compensation is Optical... ALA Sunglasses... Sheesh...

Posted by: UmaroVI May 5 2011, 02:26 PM

You seem to be describing two problems. Figure out which of them is actually the problem, or if it is both, make sure of that!

1) "Mages are better than the other PCs and outshine everyone else."

2) "My PCs are too powerful compared to NPCs."

One fix for #1 is to be a passive-aggressive jerk and "interpret" rules like "it's totally valid to say that sunglasses will make a fireball explode in your face, lol," or the people who think that having literally an entire city in background count 1-2 is sensible, but not tell your players upfront and surprise them with your not-a-houserule-its-a-completely-valid-interpretation-of-RAW houserules. Or you could be direct and impose some houserules to weaken mages and then tell your players before they make their characters. By the way, if you are finding that non-cybered physical adepts outshine street samurai then someone is doing something wrong.

The fix for #2 is to either give your PCs less BPs, or beef up the opposition.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 02:28 PM

Your Interpretation is wonky, though, BECAUSE of the Mage Sight Goggles. They Work, becuase they Work. Which is why I said that it is just Dickery to have Indirect Spells Impact upon worn glasses. I agree that you should impose the physical objects that actually impose, but that is going way to far, in my opinion.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 5 2011, 02:31 PM

Don't forget to apply the spirit's edge to its summoning resist roll if you think its pretty strong.

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 02:32 PM

Mage sight goggles are an affront to shadowrun Mages are plenty powerful enough without having these crazy fiberoptic goggles of win.

Posted by: James McMurray May 5 2011, 02:35 PM

Cram is 10:nuyen:, Jazz is 75:nuyen:, and even Kamikaze is only 100:nuyen:. A single dose of any of those is probably more than enough to last a typical security guard 6+ months.



Or use the karma generation system in Runner's Companion. You start with the same basic resources as a 400BP character but maxing things out is much more costly.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 5 2011, 02:35 PM

Isn't it body * 2, and evey 2 points over that is a cumulative -1 penalty? In other words, shouldn't he only be able to go up to 11 without penalties?

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 02:40 PM

form fitting full body armor is 6/2, but counts as 3/1 for purposes of encumbrance when stacking it with other armor.

SO: 5 body = FFFBA: 6/2 + Steam punk OverCoat(3/3)+ SteamPunk Vest(2/2) + Steampunk Pants(1/1) + Steampunk shirt(1/1)=13/9 with 0 encumbrance.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 5 2011, 02:42 PM

Also, don't forget that if you need some examples of more balanced foes, the free Missions on the CGL site has tons of examples.
I've found when new GMs tackle Shadowrun they forget how dangerous more, weaker characters can be compared to a equal amount of more dangerous characters.
Don't forget to impose visual penalties to the spellcaster and don't forget that your NPCs shoot twice per IP.
When in doubt, take a look at some published runs and draw from there.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 02:44 PM

Ehhh... They are Niche. Rarely have I seen a Mage that uses them. The penalties (-3 for Mage Sight Goggles, and -1 for Spellcasting from Cover... so minimum of -4, not counting visibility modifiers) are severe enough that they are only used in the direst of circumstances in my experience.

Posted by: James McMurray May 5 2011, 02:44 PM

Remember that as GM you have infinite numbers on your side. It doesn't matter what the PCs have, you can have more. For instance, take a troll with 10 reaction and 30 soak dice. He can avoid any harm, right? Yeah, but not for long. 10 gangers with BF weapons can pretty easily take him down even though they'll have 2 dice on a long burst. The first 9 fire wide bursts and hope they hit. They should, but they're unlikely to get the 4 successes they need to stage the damage up past where he can soak it. But then the last guy fires a short narrow burst. The troll no longer has any defense dice, so he's soaking 8P/-1 plus successes. He'll probably take a point or two and it'll probably be stun. The next simple action is a long narrow burst, which he again can't dodge. Now he's soaking 11P/-1 plus successes. If that ganger spends one of their Edge on each shot you could easily drop the troll since his stun track can't be as big as his physical one and he's set himself up to almost always take stun damage.

Likewise, Control Thoughts is scary. But a typical runner is controlling the thoughts of a security guard while a typical security mage is controlling the thoughts of the aforementioned troll. Which one is nastier?

You mentioned healing drain making overcasting a joke. Drain can't be healed by magic and physical damage takes a long time to heal normally (at least a full day of rest).

What does the social adept do that ruins things? The only thing I can think of is compelling voice, but that only controls the target if you allow it. a lot of the time it just means that the adept spent one action to steal one action from an enemy.

Also, what are their weak spots? If the combat beast with a 1 charisma and no social skills only ever has to look up from the novel he's reading when a fight starts, he's going to seem a lot more powerful than he really is.

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 02:45 PM

Never underestimate the power of suppression fire being fired by multiple people.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 02:47 PM

Quite possibly. But then you have to worry about your guards becomming addicted to the substance, have a recovery program, etc. In this day and age when Quality Security has tens of thousands spent in their training and outfitting, I do not see it as a stretch, in the 2070's) to provide a small bit of 'ware. And you have to admit, Wired reflexes are a hell of an equalizer.



Karma Generation has its own issues, though. However, It is a viable alternative.

Posted by: James McMurray May 5 2011, 02:56 PM

Armor encumbrance doesn't round down. Every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that your armor rating exceeds your Body x 2 costs you a point of agility. With 5 body you could have Armor Vest (6/4) + FFBA (6/2) + Securetech Forearm Guards (0/1) + Shin Guards (0/1) + Vitals Protector (1/1) + Helmet (0/2) = 13/11, but 10/10 for encumbrance. Toss softweave into the mix and it can go even higher. Concealability isn't really a factor since none of it's illegal.

Posted by: James McMurray May 5 2011, 03:02 PM

Every beat copper carries 2 doses of jazz. Something tells me that, given how rare they'd have to use it, addiction isn't really a problem. Likewise, the addiciton rules themselves mean that if you're only an occasional user you're fine.

Besides, when Security Guard #17462917-B shows up saying he "lost his jazz inhaler" you don't rush him off to rehab. You fire his druggie ass and hire one of the thousands of out of work Lone Star cops to take his place. Knight Errant's takeover of Seattle's contract was a boon for corporate security divisions everywhere.

Posted by: Sengir May 5 2011, 03:04 PM

He is watching the target through an electronic device. Electronics and Magic don't like each other

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 03:07 PM

That's EXACTLY the same amount of armor I listed! except with a slightly different armor package. And softweave is from War! Huh! What is it good for, absolutely NOTHING. The worse SR book /ever/.

So what we've said is with Body 5, you can get 13 points of ballistic/11 points Impact.
More importantly with Body 2, you can get 7/5 which is pretty sweet. But even 13 points of armor only slows down an AK-97, it doesn't make you immune to it.

Where it breaks down is the body 9 trolls who can put together dicepools in the HIGH 30's.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 5 2011, 03:17 PM

I don't know. I've read A Scanner Darkly.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 5 2011, 03:24 PM

Shadowrun is not Arena combat. Arena combat can be part of Shadowrun, but it is small subset.

Forget Mechanics. Don't look for attack and defense numbers for NPC to beat PCs.

Strategy > Tactics > PC Attack/Defense numbers.

Tactics tactics tactics! Use them.

That smart corp sec team is going to use every single possible advantage to move things into their favor, and they will have the resources of a Megacorp to train them and point them in the right direction. They'll know what to look for and use cover, mutual supporting fire, and combined tactics to create a situation where every possible modifier is a bonus for themselves and a minus for the shadowrunner team. Guards with a base offensive dice pool of 4 with 6 or more extra dice from modifiers going against a typical Runners defensive pools suddenly start having a good chance of putting the runner team down.

Poorly paid mall cops will just get shot in the face and rolled over by the runners... but the bracelet biomonitors will signal for the heavy weapons response team and packs of tracking spirits and astral entities to show up instantly and act as spotters. Spotters who won't engage, act totally defensively, and do their best to stay concealed while drawing in the group of people who will have nothing else on their mind except "GEEK THE MAGE!".

Yep, you have Magic, you're powerful, scary, capable of great things no one else can do. Welcome to the top of everyone's targeting list. Enjoy. With great power comes a bullseye on your back, front, sides, top and bottom.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 5 2011, 03:35 PM

Don't, just don't. With 300 BP the characters can't even have average attributes (average costs 160 BP which is illegal at that point value). I doubt it will be fun for your players to play such cripples.
Varied obstactles especially those that can't be shot is a good idea.

and +1 to DireRadiant's post.

Posted by: Irion May 5 2011, 03:43 PM

Throw a granade.

Posted by: Blade May 5 2011, 03:46 PM

If you want to restrict your PC's power after chargen, there are better solutions than restricting BPs: restricting max money/magic/skill rating/availability and banning some gear/powers can be much more useful, especially when you've got munchkins.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 04:01 PM

Flare Comp does not have to be electronic. It can be optical as well...
As for if they are electronic, he is not using them to TARGET a spell... he is using it as a defensive measure against brighht light. Big difference. Sheesh...

And Electronics and Magic get along quite famously in Shadowrun. It is not the Dresden Files, after all...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 04:07 PM

Sure you do... Right... The Corporations just write off the expenditure of training and outfitting someone, and then spend it again to do so for another. Methinks that you really need a lesson in economics 101 there.

Corps are about the bottom line. They do not fire someone they have spent thousands of nuyen on for training and equipment just because they might need help to kick a habit that has developed because of their primary duties to the corporation. Remember, Corporate Citizens are an investment. Corporations do not throw away their investments casually.

Posted by: Dez384 May 5 2011, 04:11 PM

Second this. Especially in tight corridors where it rebounds and hits people multiple times.

First action when reacting to an ambush? Throw grenades and get out of the kill zone.


Also, don't be afraid to exploit their negative qualities. They exist for a GM to use to get one up on the players. If a negative quality never comes into play, then it's just free BP.

Posted by: Seth May 5 2011, 04:14 PM

I have a much simpler option than the above: numbers

I find a gang of (say) 15 people with 1 or 2 options armed, and about 8 die on their attack with heavy pistols, or worse smgs, can take down almost any PC, as long as they are not stupid.

Stupid is standing in a clump where they can be grenaded or stun balls. The important thing to this strategy is make it hard for the players to kill the gangs in one attack, the other important thing is for all the gangers to shoot at once.

If they are behind cover (lots of visibility modifiers - which apply to spells too), which gives them a bit of armour as well, then they cannot be taken out with a single attack.

As there are 15 of them, and they are shooting twice, that's 30 attacks (I recommend invisible castle to roll when its that many). Every time your super hard characters dodge, they are -1 on the next attack. So if they all shoot at the elf with (say) 15 die in defence, the last 15 he has no defence, and he probably glitched or critically glitched a roll. So now he has been hit 15 times for around 8 damage AP -2.... let me say that another way...he is dead. If he has enough armour to with stand that...you bring in the smgs, and use narrow burst.

This means that the players are losing 1 character at least every time the gang attacks.

By the way the gangs might have a grenade or too themselves... grenades cause players problems

You don't have to use a 15 group gang...even a 10 member gang is good. A 5 member gang however will probably all die before they get a go.

Posted by: James McMurray May 5 2011, 04:16 PM

No it's not. You said 13/9 and had to break the rules to do it.



I won't argue opinions, but I specifically did not use Softweave in my numbers, just said that they could go higher if you use it.



Nah, even that's not a break down. See my earlier post for gangers taking down a 30 soak troll (without resorting to elemental damage or stick-n-shock). If his soak is 35+ the same example works but you give the gangers bigger guns. Soak is the worst possible defense you could have, since it takes 3 soak dice for 1 DV, but only one dodge hit to negate 1 DV. If you're soaking shots you're already in trouble (unless the GM put you up against dudes with SA pistols).

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 04:22 PM

What rules did I break? I'm really confused as to where I broke any rules?
13/9, 13/11 are both very cose, and I could make it 13/11 if I used the PPP system items that give 0/1 as well so that's not really much difference.

5 body = 10 points of uncompensated armor

The Steam Punk outfit has 7. The FFFBA has 6 div2=3 3+7=10

Yes, but Trolls can have both High Dodge and High Soak totals.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 04:28 PM

Hell... in a recent game, the 5 Gangers ended up against 5 Runners. In the end, the Gangers lost out, but not before throwing a pretty good beat down on the runners. The Runner's heavy hitter (Fomori Mage Killer) was down and out (though unfortunately not quite dead) at the hands of the Troll ganger. It was quite funny indeed.

Posted by: James McMurray May 5 2011, 04:35 PM

Sorry, I miscounted. Your total would also be 13/11 if you added two bits of Securetech.



No, they can't. At least not for long. See again the ganger example. It is incredibly easy to drop any dodge pool to 0. Even a great Dragon with a 45 reaction could be dropped to 0 if you have enough guys shooting at him with big enough guns that he has to try to avoid the hits.

High defense numbers are meaningless in SR's combat system unless the GM is not willing to do what it takes to overcome them. The only important thing is making sure that the PCs are built in a way that the GM can overcome them and is willing to do so, and the only way something can be unbalanced is if the players and GM allow it to be. Usually this means that the PC in question is vastly superior to the rest of the team, since there's no way he can be superior to the rest of the world. From the opening post it looks like the GM is having problems with all of the PCs, not just one. That means he can either drop some draconian restrictions on them all or step up his game. The latter lets them play the characters they want without waffle-stomping through every run.

Posted by: Seth May 5 2011, 04:46 PM

My favourite tactic actually is to adopt an idea from many other games: mooks and bosses. Mooks are like the gangers I described above. They have 3 (or 4 or 5 if they are veteran / elite) in attributes and skills and provide numbers, while the bosses are stated a bit more like PCs. Don't forget the value of tacnets though...they add 2..4 die in most circumstances to all the bad guys.

Bosses on their own are toast: the samurais and mage all focus on them, and the boss goes down. With the numbers though, the boss is much more effective.

Posted by: sabs May 5 2011, 04:47 PM

Yeah:

Defender has defended against
previous attacks since last action | –1 per additional defense
Attacker firing long wide burst | –5

Means that After 3 or 4 gangers shooting at the same guy, he's sucking -9 dice to his dicepool, worse is those gangers have FA weapons, then he's sucking -13. That will hurt even the most dedicated gun bunny.

Another nice thing for taking out groups of people. If you have 5 guys all lay down suppression fire: They don't take any penalty to their to hit, and it's a cumulative -1 to defense for every player in the area. It won't kill the players, unless they try to charge in, but it will cause them serious issues. Suppressive fire + grenades = fun.

Especially if you start using Flash Bangs with an Airburst. 6 guards, 4 doing suppression fire, 2 throwing flash bang grenades. that's 6S -3 AP x 2 you're soaking.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 05:17 PM

It depends on who you're fighting, of course.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 5 2011, 05:33 PM

You know, IKerensky, you could always sit your player down and say to them: "Hey guys, I know you love be uber curbstomping bad asses who have more guns than any third world nation and enough magic to make Dragons notice, but could you guys... I don't know... make real people." http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34752&st=0&p=1061052&#entry1061052 who is a combat medic mage, and here was one comment about the character:

SO you can have a fun character to play, but not so superhuman that they curbstomp everybody.

Posted by: cndblank May 5 2011, 06:06 PM

Great thread all (as I take notes for the gunslinger adept in my campaign),


On spirits using edge, I'd say say don't do unless you want the Players to be asking for their spirits to do so too.

Certainly a summoner can not order a spirit to spend edge.

Personally I like the suggestion that a summoned spirit will only spend edge to save itself some serious pain or if it really likes the summoner (or if doing so will really screw over the summoner if it hates the summoner).

Posted by: Rasumichin May 5 2011, 06:16 PM

No, they are a very convenient way to tell corp guards whom they have to shoot first.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 5 2011, 06:47 PM

Remember suppressive fire is not an attack at targets, and the target does not get a defense roll but a REA+Edge roll. As such the character is not defending and does not get the cumulative -1 for multiple machine guns. Also dropping prone which is a free action can be used to avoid the fire altogether. There is no penalty for shooting from the prone position. 6P-1(Assault Rifle and LMG suppressive fire) can be soaked with 19 dice half of the time. I'm too lazy to calculate the probability of taking less than 3 boxes. If that is the case the PC will have no additional penalty from the "suppression". It will add up but fights rarely take very long anyway.

Posted by: Nath May 5 2011, 08:30 PM

Unless you bought War!, in which case "suppressive fire counts as one attack for the purposes of calculating modifiers to defense tests" and "if a target finds itself in more than one suppressive fire zone at the same time, he makes only one Reaction+Edge Test for the entire Action Phase, with a -1 dice pool modifier per zone beyond the first". However, as you said "the penalty from the defending against multiple attacks does not apply in this case, because resisting a suppressive fire is not a defense test".

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 5 2011, 08:31 PM

Interesting. I love when core mechanics are assembled through a patchwork of variable-quality splatbooks.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 5 2011, 10:06 PM

Even worse. A possession tradition wage mage. Now the troll hasn't just switched sides he's gotten a hell of a buff.

Posted by: Manunancy May 5 2011, 10:07 PM

In the opening post you mentioned the PCs being heavy user (and possibly abusers) of mind-altering magic. That's not going to do much good for their repute. If they're using it even during non-hostile interaction (say using an influence spell on the Johnson to bump up their payrate) and it gets notices, their repute will plummet really fast as nobody will want to deal with them - or at least not without some sort of defense (up to having the meeting's security fragging the mage the second he looks like he's casting).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 10:34 PM

Indeed. I have noticed that few people tend to enforce the Fluff of the Mental Manipulations in game. Either they forget it, ot they just don't apply it for some reason. Having a Reputaion for using Mind Altering Magics is BAD.

Mechanically, of course, you can only really gain a point of Notoriety for it once. But still, it should matter to those that you deal with.

Posted by: Cain May 5 2011, 10:51 PM

You know, I'm surprised no one's mentioned the obvious....

Lighting modifiers. Defensive terrain. Cover. All these will be on the side of the mooks, unless the team gets creative. (And then, they deserve the advantage). You don't need to toughen up the stats and rolls to challenge the team.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 5 2011, 11:04 PM

Also Very true. There are a lot of conditional modifiers that the opposition can use to great effect.

Posted by: James McMurray May 6 2011, 02:41 AM

What sorts of situational modifiers can the opposition use that the PCs can't? I'm especially having trouble thinking of any lighting modifiers that won't either cut both ways or be easily negated by a pair of glasses.

Posted by: CanRay May 6 2011, 02:49 AM

Elevation and cover in the proper ambush situation.

Always beware of areas in the Barrens that *DON'T* have wrecked and burned out cars everywhere!

Posted by: Glyph May 6 2011, 02:56 AM

Some things to remember about mental manipulations: they are continually resisted, with victims getting cumulative successes over (Force) rounds until they exceed the caster's successes. This may not matter in most combats, but any time you get out of combat time, it can be very quick - so it isn't that feasible to make someone a puppet for an extended period of time.

Also, control actions and control thoughts take simple actions to give commands, and the victim can act normally when not being commanded. Remember that they are sustained spells, so shooting the mage can disrupt the control by disrupting the spell.

Using these spells against security guards to sow confusion or get someone to open the gate won't get the group into too much hot water, reputation-wise, but using them during the course of things such as negotiations will get them a bad reputation, as well as cost them contacts and make them enemies.

And for the next-biggest gun, the social adept, remember that, unlike the spells mentioned above, social skills are not mind control.

Etiquette lets you fit in and look like you belong, or catch yourself when you are about to make a big social blunder. The best it can usually do is get people to like you, really.

Leadership seems the most powerful, since it involves you getting people to do what you tell them to do, but the big limiter is that you need to have some authority over the people you are using it on, or at least the potential for them to think of you as a leader. You might be able to take charge during a big quake, and get a bunch of people caught in a mall to exit in an orderly fashion. But outside of using Commanding Voice, you won't get a security guard to do what you say.

Negotiation lets you come out ahead in bargaining, but that's all. The Johnson can still only raise his price so much, and the used car salesman won't sell for a loss. So forget about PCs thinking a high negotiation roll can get them free stuff, or even stuff at below cost. If the face is too good, it can come back to bite him as "buyer's remorse" sets in.

Intimidation lets you scare people into doing something for you, or telling you what you want to know. It's only good when you're right there to back it up, and for a little while afterwards, and it breeds resentment or even hatred.

Con is the most versatile of all, both for manipulating people's emotions, and for getting things from them. But keep in mind that con is a hostile act - you are essentially deceiving people. Con artists generally avoid their former marks - you don't have a good chance to con someone more than once (depends on the severity, of course), since once they realize they have been taken advantage of, they will not be receptive to anything the character says.

And that is the key; any social skill needs a receptive target. You might be able to mollify a hostile stranger, but things like enemies, or guards with inflexible security procedures, can trip you up. Read novels about face types, and you will see that their social abilities are not a magic bullet that protects them from people ever reacting negatively to them, even people who would probably have mental Attributes of 1 or 2.

A social adept with 30 dice is like a street samurai with 30 dice - more likely to succeed, but still not able to break the hard limits of the skill itself. That street samurai will hit nearly every time, sure, but he can't shoot faster than his pistol's rate of fire. Similarly, the face can't simply magically make everything go his way - social skills are more subtle manipulations, and take a deft touch to be optimally effective.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 03:02 AM

I've never really understood Leadership; isn't it really just Persuasion, with a couple funny wrinkles?

Posted by: Cain May 6 2011, 03:34 AM

Trying to fight with the opponents heavily backlit changes the equation. Flare comp helps, but they can also have UV lamps and do the same trick in total darkness. Heavily dug in positions also makes a huge difference.

Posted by: CanRay May 6 2011, 03:39 AM

Try to use Persuasion on soldiers that are under heavy fire and see how well that works out for you.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 03:42 AM

"Buddy, can you hear me? Sorry about that illusion spell earlier. Do those bullets sound real? Good! I'm off to a good start then. How do the soldiers on the enemy lines look?"

Works every time with a dice pool of 30.
Except statistically. For some reason it just doesn't work that way with dice and stats.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 03:47 AM

It's not a war game, CanRay. It's crazy that there's a skill for leading soldiers, but not one for simple persuasion… and that the latter gets rolled up into the former.

Posted by: CanRay May 6 2011, 03:59 AM

That's what happens when you read War! in a ER waiting room while worried out of your gourd.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 6 2011, 04:18 AM

The book does not say what the victim can or can't do when he is not carrying out an order.If he could operate freely, the spell would be totally useless as everyone would either cry mindrape or call for backup possibly even with a description or videofeed who the caster was

QFT

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 04:28 AM

That would be hilarious.
You're ordered to shoot your friend, so you do. It just so happens you have more initiative passes than the mage, so you then go stabilize your friend, heal him a bit, and shoot the mage in the head.

Posted by: CanRay May 6 2011, 04:31 AM

Or a Mystical Adept that has the same amount of IPs.

*Shakes Head* That was one broken Pixie!

Posted by: Fortinbras May 6 2011, 04:47 AM

Why do I get the feeling I saw that in a Joss Whedon script?

Posted by: IKerensky May 6 2011, 07:29 AM

Interesting suggestion all

To reply a few :

Use different opposition than pure fight. I do, the trick is that the game wont be fun without some fights, and thoses fight tend not to be fun.

Use gangers rolling 8 dices outnumbering PC 3 to 1 in a ambush position : could get boring after the few first times. I tend to outnumber players and use covers but it always work both way. Covers mean it is not open ground and thus the number advantage is lessened. PC are stronger than NPC and thus less hindered than them by lightning and covers, they are also usually more prepared than mere gangers against that. Flare is a one trick pony that wont work every fight. And I find that gangers rolling 8 dices is quite a lot, except if you consider all your gangers to have military training in weapons and smartlink.

Another element is that the Shadowrunners are usually the ones initiating the combat by their action. They could fall into a trap or an ambush but that doesnt sound like thoses are the usual combat condition for them.

About magic, I appreciate the comment on abusing controling magic. The trick is that, if the players are intelligent enough not to make it too much obvious there is not so much of a downside. But in this case it only show that it work correctly.

I feel the drain is far too small for players that usually have their Resist Drain Pool maxed from the start. Combat dont last very long and recuperation between combat is fairly short, no need to use magic, mundane cure for Stun work very well.

About Spirits, obviously there is no other way than to add "unspoken" rules or ressort to munchkinism against munchkinism. I can roll them over with nearly unlimited number of Spirits coming from security command but that wont solve the true problem : that, by the Rules As Written, mages can summon/control far too many spirits, far too much potent. the only limit is not a rule but a mere suggestion that spirit could use Edge to resist (with no real indication of when he should do so) I would have prefered a real rules with real setting.

Posted by: jizo May 6 2011, 08:02 AM

This article is from the point of view of someone who does not have any uber 150-200+ post char gen characters so keep the viewpoint in mind when you read it.
p 188 sr4a
A magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any
given time, and no more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute.
Spirits on remote service and on standby count toward this total.

how high of charisma do they have, how powerful of spirits are they summoning, if they are lower force, full auto bursts from tripoded assault rifles will do them in quite quickly, at higher force levels stun bolts can still do them in. As a mage can summon only one unbound spirit at a time and the spirits are limited to the magic level of the caster for the drain to be stun, I don't see how a single force 6 spirit can utterly ruin a mid-high level facility's day especially if there are mages on call from higher up (astral speed run 5k/ combat turn) From Belleville to Tacoma is about 50km or so. it would then theoretically take 1 min for a mage in astral to move from downtown/high security main buildings to an outlying firm part of the business that stated they were under heavy magical attack.

Spirits are relatively expensive to bind in any quantity. especially if the spirit is causing physical drain. In street magic the authors reference the fact that spirits dislike being bound by people with lower magic than themselves*, and given that statement, as a GM if the players are overusing spirits the next time they attempt to bind a force 6-8+ spirit when you are already rolling 12-16 dice add the spirits edge to the roll and watch the player cry as they now have to resist TWICE the hits of the spirit which could easily cause 12-16p drain, if you want to warn them. Use a spirit of less than their magic attribute first just to show them how much it can hurt them, to urge caution, especially as there is no way to heal magical drain damage aside from first aid/hospitals, and first aid gets a penalty due to the fact they are a magician
sr4a p.178
Neither Stun nor Physical damage resulting from Drain can be healed by magical means such
as sorcery or spirit powers.

a decent ward around the guard booth would come as an unwelcome surprise for someone trying to mind control the guards to get the gate open as a ward adds dice to the willpower test to resist the magic in the first place as well as alerting the mage who set the ward that something is up. (From what I understand)
* I am unsure where I saw this, so I can not be certain that I am not just misremembering it

Posted by: Sengir May 6 2011, 11:48 AM

So what? The flare comp glasses have to cover his eyes, otherwise they'd be fairly useless. Which means our mage is watching his target through an electronic device, which means he can't cast on it, just like he can't cast via a CCTV feed.

Posted by: Wesley Street May 6 2011, 12:01 PM

I call BS to this post. I just finished a 300BP game and my players had a grand old time.

Posted by: Kyrel May 6 2011, 12:59 PM

I unfortunately have to agree with this. A mage can't use any form of non-optical vision enhancement.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 6 2011, 01:22 PM

Sunglasses are the easiest way of glare compensation. Those needn't be electronic. Furthermore where does it say that as soon as Flare compensation is engaged the user views a video feed? The glasses' lenses are simply made less translucent by use of electronics. You are perceiving nothing electronically.

If a spell originated from the eyes, or the GM just wants to be a jerk you would have problems with indirect combat spells though. But that would be the case for simple corrective lenses as well.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 01:26 PM

I actually see Persuasion as a part of Negotiation.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 01:33 PM

Whatever Sengir... That Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, as Dakka Dakka has pointed out above.
Of course, You are free to say that Flare Compensation interferes with Magic. I do not agree with you.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 6 2011, 01:47 PM

Any Shadowrunner mage without a little bit of cyber is, IMO, a target waiting to get mauled.

My combat medic mage has 1.995 points of cyber/bio. His cybereyes have thermo, low light, Vision Enhancement, smartlink... and yes Flare Comp.

Posted by: James McMurray May 6 2011, 02:21 PM

The example was gangers. It can be anything. The important part is that they have the numbers needed to rapidly lower dodge pools and the damage capability to back that up.

8 dice for a grunt isn't a big stretch. The gangers in the core book have 6 dice while the police and corporate security guards have 7. Also, you don't need 8 dice. Once someone's dodge pool is at 0 three dice is plenty to hurt most people.


If the secure facility is designed such that there's one way in and one way out then it's easy for the first triggered alarm to cause a buildup of guards outside rather than a stream of them coming down the hallway in a conga line of death.



There is a threshold for noticing spellcasting. Unless they put the Force very low (and limit their hits) then they're going to have a hard time preventing it from being noticed.



If drain were much higher everyone would just shoot guns. Combat spells have to be usable, and if they knock you out for trying then they're no longer usable.



Summoning is one at a time. Binding costs money (500 x Force). High force spirits (the only ones that are any real trouble to security forces) cost a good deal of money and could even resist the summoning with their Force x 2 dice. Likewise having a bunch of bound spirits on hand could rack up some hefty dice pool penalties (-2 per spirit but only when the situation warrants it).

How many spirits, and how many services each, does the mage typically have? Does he have nothing else to spend his cash on?

Posted by: Sengir May 6 2011, 02:30 PM

Uh yes, sunglasses against strobe lights...then again, I've seen people use surgical gloves when welding, which is about the same level of "protection"

Posted by: DireRadiant May 6 2011, 02:34 PM

"Line of Sight" is an interesting concept which can cloud some of issues surrounding how magic interacts between the caster and the target.

For reference you'll want to look at p. 183 in SR4A
"The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between
caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana
of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect. Under the
basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch. Line
of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through
transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting
modifiers. As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing
device or other technological rendering of the target does not
establish the necessary link."

In gaming terms I would suggest considering "LOS" as a concept primarily from the POV of an outside observer(Classically the GM, or in table top war games, the Referee). The question to be answered is, "Is there a clear line between the caster and the target?" or even better, "Can the Caster perceive the Target?"

Why did I use the word "Perceive"?

Sight is only one means of perception. Assensing is not sight, but awakened beings can all use assensing for targeting. (Awakened creatures without eyeballs can Assense.... spirits, ghouls, etc...)

At this point we have two possible modes for the transfer of magic between caster and target based on the current arguments.

Eyeball Theory
Where the mages eyes are key, and sunglasses and contact lenses will block targeting and casting, and possibly even prevent assensing.

Mystic Link Theory
Both sight and Assensing can be used by the Caster to establish the "Mystic Link", at which point the magical energies are released by the Caster and effect the Target. Physical and Mana spells and powers represent the different ways in which the magical energy is released.

You choose how you want to play, but I generally find the Eyeball Theory at odds with the vast majority of the SR4 game rules and practices.

On a side note I've always wondered if it would be an interesting Quality to have where Hearing could be used as a perceiving sense for establishing the Mystic Link.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 02:35 PM

Its the 2070's Sengir... The Sunglasses of that Era will not be the sunglasses of ours.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 6 2011, 02:43 PM

According to the FAQ, you *can* use hearing… or even smell. No, it doesn't really make any sense. (Couldn't resist.)

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 6 2011, 02:44 PM

Just to reiterate. This only applies to indirect combat spells. All other spells can be cast through any transparent medium. If photons travel from the target to the eye of the caster it works.
Yup and the last sentence applies to most of the FAQ. Couldn't resist either.

Posted by: sabs May 6 2011, 02:50 PM

Well, what's even more irritating, if you're assessing with hearing, the normal visibility and lighting modifiers apply. Which means btw, if it's total darkness, you get a -6 to your targeting roll, even though you're using your sense of smell.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 03:11 PM

Only if your GM is being stubborn about that. Hearing and/or Smell does not care about Lighting, and Common Sense says that Darkness would not apply for such things, though ambient environmentals will add their own penalties, of course. Also, Your Threshold is likely higher to "perceive" something with Hearing or Smell. And unless you have Aural/Olfaction Boosts (or have exceptional Senses), it is unlikely that you will have a Sense that is even capable of true targeting capabilities. Of course, there is 'ware that can help with this dilemma.

Still does not make any sense though...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 6 2011, 03:20 PM

No. You can never assense with any of your normal senses. Astral Perception is an additional psychic sense. Even permanently dual-natured critters cannot do that, even though they perceive both planes simultaneously. Assensing always uses that other sense.

Posted by: sabs May 6 2011, 03:31 PM

It's an other sense where lighting and sight modifiers apply. Which is the weird part.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 6 2011, 03:59 PM

Persuasion would be a bit of a catch-all social skill;
Con: persuading people to believe something
Negotiation: persuading people to agree to a deal with favorable terms
Etiquette: persuading people you belong and that you're pleasant company
Leadership: persuading the people to follow your lead.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 04:27 PM

Yeah, I can buy that...

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 04:37 PM

Agreed. Mages don't use sight to determine the coordinates of their target and cast at those coordinates. They use sight to form a magical link with the target, and cast their spell through that.

At least for direct combat spells. If it's indirect, I feel he can fudge it by looking at the character through anything he wants and saying, "I cast in that direction".

Posted by: sabs May 6 2011, 04:43 PM

That completely doesn't jibe with the description of how Indirect Spells work.
Even AREA effect indirect spells require you to be able to see the center of the area you want to effect. You have to form a mystic link. It's not a bullet that goes in a straight line from where you are pointing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 6 2011, 04:45 PM

To Each his own I guess... The books never say HOW that link is created, you are making an assumption, at best. They use "Line of Sight" because it is a common term that everyone is familiar with. What they DO say is that you cannot TARGET with Augmented Sight unless it is paid for with/by Essence. However, you are not using the Flare Compensation to Target a spell. It is not a Mode of Sight, as it were, like Thermographic or Lowlight.

Anyways...

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 04:45 PM

I guess. I forgot that indirect spells travel along the mystic link like a guideline.

As for flare comp. Tymaeus has a point, I guess it isn't really an electronic feed, so no problem.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 04:52 PM

You can't target just an aura, unless you're ritual spellcasting apparently (I hate rituals so much).
"auras alone cannot be
targeted" SR4A 183

Posted by: sabs May 6 2011, 04:55 PM

You can only target an aura in a ritual if you have something that creates a link.

Some blood, some skin, his favorite teddy bear, etc.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 04:57 PM

I was talking about spotters. Just basic core book spotters.

"The spotter must be present in
the lodge when the ritual begins, and then must travel physically or
astrally to where she can assense the target of the spell. The target does
not have to be astrally active (and it’s often safer for the spotter if she
isn’t); the spotter must just be able to assense him."SR4A 185

Posted by: sabs May 6 2011, 05:03 PM

Gah.. I forgot that part. That's so unfair. You can ritually cast mana bolt on some guy who isn't even awakened? That's a frightening level of assassination.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 05:09 PM

Motion for mage to be synonymous with dick?

Motion sustained.

We have set a precedent.

Posted by: Sephiroth May 6 2011, 05:47 PM

He said assess, not assense.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 06:11 PM

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs46/i/2009/183/c/d/Clever_Girl_by_jimoakley666.jpg

Posted by: Sephiroth May 6 2011, 06:25 PM

Can't access your link, I'm afraid. My OS believes that dA is infected with the Conficker virus or something similar.

Posted by: sabs May 6 2011, 06:31 PM

I am fairly sure that i is supposed to be a u

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 06:43 PM

It was just my favorite picture of Robert Muldoon from Jurassic Park saying "Clever Girl".

Posted by: KCKitsune May 6 2011, 06:48 PM

OBJECTION!!!

Mages are no more dicks than a Street Sammy with MBW 2 (which you can get at Chargen). Yes that mage might be able to get him, but with Genewipe you can't get a good enough ritual link to the Sammy... Good luck trying to kill him when he can shoot back... with MUCH bigger guns.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 6 2011, 07:52 PM

I've yet to meet a shadowrunning team that I couldn't kill or at least maim with a good rigger team. The really hard part is getting the possession mage to sit still long enough to hit him with a truck.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 09:53 PM

I'm building one right now, but for some reason hackers don't provoke the same emotions in me that awakened characters do. Probably because a mage is born with his power, you can't learn it. A rigger, on the other hand, practiced. Any one killed by the rigger just didn't invest enough time in their profession of choice, or were unlucky, or just played stupidly. There's no genetic barrier like: the rigger won because he's an Aryan.


HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHA!


MBW 2?

Genewipe doesn't make pictures or used coffee mugs disintegrate. Also, I don't know whether it works against preservation spells. I'd like to argue that the rules for genewipe say your genes decompose within 5 minutes irrevocably. Then again, that's just speeding up a process that would be completely prevented by the spell. Opinions?

I hate it when Yerameyahu says this, but he's got a point: the mage can shoot you with the same guns you use to shoot him. He's not spending that nuYen anywhere else.
Also, a starting mage can overcast his spells to get a higher DV than any handheld weapon in the entire game. He then proceeds to get stronger.

Posted by: Nath May 6 2011, 10:21 PM

The description of the Preserve spell says "The material’s rate of decomposition is reduced by a factor equal to the number of hits scored; 4 hits would preserve a substance for 4 times as long as it would normally last."

In this context, I would understand "normally" as "when no spell is cast" and not "when no spell is cast and no genetic treatment is applied". Just one opinion though.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 6 2011, 10:28 PM

So, 20 minutes for 4 hits then? Odd, I thought there was a spell that completely halted aging of substances. Just goes to show that it's true magic is more powerful when no one understands it.

Posted by: Glyph May 7 2011, 02:12 AM

Re-reading it, control actions is the only one that explicitly says this ("when not directly controlled, the victim may act as normal"). I guess that's why control thoughts has Drain 2 points higher.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 7 2011, 11:04 AM

Move-by-Wire 2.

Posted by: James McMurray May 7 2011, 11:11 AM

That and the -Willpower penalty they have when controlling your actions to do stuff you don't want to do.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 7 2011, 12:49 PM

(Whoops, wrong thread.)

Posted by: DireRadiant May 8 2011, 03:40 AM

I would like to know where I mentioned an aura.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 8 2011, 03:47 AM

Don't mind him, he's learning.

That phrase is referring to the fact that you can't target physical objects from the astral, longbowrocks. That is, auras are visible on the astral plane, but they're not 'present'… so they can't be targeted. I know I already told you this in the other thread.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 8 2011, 02:43 PM

Patience, Yerameyahu... He is still learning. Remember?

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 12:15 AM

It seems like a logical way to look at things. In fact, it doesn't break the game, but rather prevents mages from breaking the game by using assensing in a way its not meant to be used. All in all, feels like RAI to me. It also sounds like RAW, unless someone has a more relevant excerpt.

• A typical mystical link is formed through perception of a target, not knowledge of the target's location.
• Assensing an aura on the astral plane, which is no different than an aura on the physical plane, will allow you to target and enemy.

Therefore you cannot target physical enemies with astral perception. Q.E.D.

• "A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision."
• "Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight."

Therefore you cannot target physical enemies with astral perception. Q.E.D.

*edit: removed code tags. They aren't being very helpful right now.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 02:15 AM

Except the rules are explicit that you can, in multiple places. The clearest, classic example—but hardly the only one—is that blind magicians (e.g. ghouls) can cast spells using their astral sense. Don't you QED at us.

The difference is being on the same plane. If you're both on the physical, seeing their aura *is* seeing them (if anything, it's more real, metaphysically). The issue is casting across planes. It's like there's a big sheet of glass 'under' the astral: you can see auras on the physical, but you can't reach them.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 03:17 AM

If you don't mind me asking; where are the multiple places? I won't argue that they can cast on the astral plane using astral senses, but I don't see anything about it either way in RC.


I thought this might be covered under blindness in RC, but no such luck. I do find it odd that they confirm that blindness does not inhibit astral perception (no one would expect it to), but neglect to mention anything about physical casting (which readers would ask at this point).
"Note that since their astral perception is not a visual sense, Awakened characters with the Blind quality may
still perceive astrally, though gamemasters are advised to strictly
apply the Astral Visibility modifiers on p. 114 of Street Magic."

I can see this partially supporting your side, but the opening of this paragraph clearly states that it pertains to the astral realm.
"Determining cover works the same way on the astral
plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and
insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting.
Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world
(like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.
Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell
targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical
shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura."


A character using astral perception is active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously. However, they cannot target both simultaneously. They need to spend a simple action to switch their perception between planes.

If you can be attacked on both planes simultaneously, it would make sense that you could attack on both planes simultaneously, since there is something physically there to attack with. All you need to do is glue on some nasty astrally active daggers and sprint around wildly as you attack on the physical plane. The issue with magic is that you need to forma mystical link, which cannot be done without perceiving your target's body (astral or physical).

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 03:36 AM

There are several old threads on this exact issue (I dunno how you keep doing this in unrelated threads! ), but I'll be brief.

The simplest point is this one, directly from the specific rules on targeting spells:

… There's really no argument possible after that.

This bit is wrong, by the way: As you see above, they *can* do both. 'Shifting perception' is actually just turning astral sense on or off. The sense itself is still *dual* (as in 'Dual-Natured', when you're doing it from a physical body). So, your confusion was based on an incorrect proposition. Glad to help.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 04:06 AM

Taken with a grain of salt since the following implies that an astrally perceiving character can cast spells at characters in in the physical or astral realm willy-nilly, which we both know is false since you need a simple action to switch.
"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space."
I don't think the writers ever expected someone to be so desperate that he would attempt to replace physical sight with assensing for casting on the physical plane.

This incorrect proposition is about as prolific as sliced bread, and goes way beyond prepositions.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 May 9 2011, 04:15 AM

I thought that only applied to things that aren't fulltime dual-nature like ghouls and shape shifters.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 04:18 AM

Magicians are full-time dual-natured. I don't know if they have a specific core rule set for dual natured critters and the like when it comes to astral perception.

*edit: nevermind. I really thought I heard someone complaining about other characters being able to snipe mages at any time through the astral plane, but I guess I misremembered.

Posted by: Epicedion May 9 2011, 04:25 AM

Magicians aren't full-time dual-natured. They only become dual-natured when they turn on astral perception.

An astrally perceiving magician can cast spells at physical or astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules.

An astrally projecting magician can only cast spells at astral targets (including dual-natured targets, including astrally perceiving magicians).

A character can spend a simple action to "turn on" astral perception, at which point they see the astral plane but remain active in the physical plane, thus becoming dual-natured. The character may spend a simple action to "turn off" astral perception, at which point they lose their dual-natured status and stop perceiving astrally.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 04:32 AM

As stated explicitly in the rules, which I quoted above, it is not possible to see the astral and physical planes at the same time. It takes a simple action to switch.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 04:42 AM

Again, no. What you call 'willy-nilly isn't just implied, it's explicitly stated in the targeting rules (this phrase is really fun!). The 'switching' you're referring to is switching between astral sense and physical senses; astral sense effectively works in both. I'm not trying to be mean or anything (I've even argued that astral perception targeting on the physical *shouldn't* be the rules), but this is a core concept in the magic system.

I don't see what's unclear about my earlier quote: astral perceiving = spells on physical or astral.

Posted by: Epicedion May 9 2011, 04:44 AM

This explicitly states that an astrally perceiving magician can cast spells at physical targets.

What it says above that:



This restriction only applies to a magician in astral space. Not to an astrally perceiving one.

Physical space: target things in physical space.
Astral space: target things in astral space.
Astrally perceiving (dual-natured): either.

The rules are fairly clear on this.

Posted by: CanRay May 9 2011, 04:46 AM

When all else fails, just pull what The Engineer suggests: Add more gun.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 04:57 AM

I'm not trying to be mean either, but I'm saying that this supersedes that.

One of the core rules of the magic system is "that which you cannot perceive, you cannot cast on". IIRC, we were arguing about what constitutes "perception" in this context based on the rules for magic.
However, the book is clearly saying that you cannot perceive on both planes simultaneously this case, and therefore you cannot cast on both planes simultaneously. We've even gone over this before, although then it was more along the lines of: "can a single area spell hit both astral and physical targets".

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 05:01 AM

How could that possibly supersede the exact rule in the spell targeting section that says 'yes, astrally perceiving definitely can cast at either'?

And it doesn't say that. You're ignoring the end of that sentence, for one thing. Astral perception works just fine for most physical things. You can't use your physical senses at the same time; you can't 'physically see'. But you don't need to.

Now, there are definitely times when this matters. For one, glass is opaque to astral perception, so physical sight is the only way to go if there's glass there. This means you'd have to switch astral off, because you can't use physical sight while it's active. As you said, you can't sense both astrally and physically at once (except, of course, 'real' Dual-Natured's with physical senses).

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 05:29 AM

Because it doesn't mention whether he has the choice of either simultaneously. This may seem like grasping at straws, but if we don't look at it that way, then there are two rules quite blatantly conflicting with one another.

I had the whole thing there in my first post quoting this, but I removed most of it in order to just get the important bits when I copied it into a new post since it no one appeared to have noticed it.
It says "almost everything", probably meaning more static things like trees, rocks, and buildings; not people, moving vehicles, and bullets.
In fact, it precisely states that these are things on the physical plane being reflected on the astral, and it has already been established that mundanes cannot be seen on the astral, only their auras. Thus, it isn't the same as seeing the physical and astral at the same time.

Kinda responded to this above, but it feels rude to just leave part of your post hanging. The glass thing is true, but assuming you were targeting a person on the physical plane, you'd have to switch off astral perception anyway.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 05:36 AM

Not at all (and, you can't assume your conclusion as a premise in your argument—there's even a fancy Latin name for that. ).

Because, guess: "An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space." There are no two ways about this (yuk yuk ). It says 'astrally perceiving' and 'physical world'. It doesn't say, 'an astrally perceiving mage can *stop* astrally perceiving and then cast spells on the physical using his physical sense'. You're right, it does seem like grasping at straws to argue otherwise. It doesn't need to say 'simultaneously' because it specifically says both are options *while* astrally perceiving.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 9 2011, 05:40 AM

Probably should read all the rules instead of selecting one or two instances and then basing your interpretation of magical targeting on them.

Start with the Targeting section in SR4A p, 183, The basic rules about targeting things with spells.

Final Paragraph is of interest.

"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence."

1. Magician not using Astral Perception, nor astrally projecting. "A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world."

2.Magician astrally projecting. "Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted)."

3. Magician astrally perceiving "An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. "

These are core rules, in the core section on targeting with spells.

While the first paragraph focuses on natural vision, and non electronic vision, there remains the question of what Assensing is. It's a Psychic sense, not one of the normal physical senses, and is covered elsewhere in the book. We also know from else where that "normal" senses do not work very well in astral space, Astral Perception, Assensing is used for targeting purposes. We can see the final paragraph of the targeting rules for spells covers these scenarios.

Posted by: Epicedion May 9 2011, 05:42 AM

Actually, the only rule that matters is the one that says you can cast at either physical or astral targets while you're astrally perceiving.

You're writing in a whole other category of perception that doesn't exist, some sort of dual state where your astral perception is on but then you're switched over to view only the physical.

That category doesn't exist in the rules. You can either astrally perceive or not. When you turn on astral perception, you can cast at physical or astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. When you turn it off you can only cast at physical targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. When you astrally project, you can only cast at astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. There's nothing in between any two of those categories.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 05:43 AM

this was a post, and will be a post. reading above posts now...

Posted by: Epicedion May 9 2011, 05:45 AM

No, your argument is specious.

Now, you can make a case for being unable to target things that you can't see with astral perception while your astral perception is switched on. I'm just not entirely certain what those would be.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 9 2011, 05:46 AM

Just one thing. How does an eyeballess awakened being who can only astrally perceive, but is materialized cast a physical spell or use a physical power? Which is the vast majority of paracritters and all spirits. Regardless of the shifting perceptions rule, they all percieve astrally, and target physical spells and powers that affect the mundane plane?

That's if you are going to go the route of some other rule somewhere else overriding the base targeting rules commonly accepted meanings, you may want to consider all those poor spirits.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 05:47 AM

Things behind glass, Epicedion. Not that glass isn't all one-way in SR anyway.

Posted by: Epicedion May 9 2011, 06:01 AM

True, but that's just because the glass is astrally opaque. You can't see things behind walls, either, so that's not special. I was more considering things that literally don't have any astral presence, but I can't think of anything like that offhand.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 06:07 AM

This is back to the original argument. You can't see a person's physical body when astral perception is turned on. You can see auras. You cannot target just an aura, so you can't target the person himself.
Assuming you can cast on both the physical plane and astral plane at once, you will first need to discern whether your target is inhabiting the physical or astral plane, since spells cannot be dual natured.

As for things that would be invisible on the astral plane, I can't think of anything either. Maybe a mana void, or its contents?

Posted by: Whipstitch May 9 2011, 06:08 AM

Actually, this particular statement is almost precisely backwards. According to books like Street Magic Astral Perception tends to be concentrated on living things first and foremost and what living things pay attention to second. Things with emotional resonance or that are frequently used by metahumans have a symbolic importance that makes them much easier to spot than say, a stray chunk of loose gravel.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 06:13 AM

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind. I guess I was basing that logic off the Fade from Dragon Age, since you can't see people on the astral plane, even though people are a major source of its makeup.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 06:28 AM

… when astrally projecting.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 9 2011, 06:33 AM

'night guys. I'll bug you about rules again tomorrow. Maybe in a different thread since we've hijacked this one completely.

Posted by: Dez384 May 9 2011, 01:55 PM

When astrally perceiving, you do pick up data from the physical world, since everything casts a shadow, both living and nonliving things. It's like a colorblind person being able to distinguish between colors, not because he sees reds and blues, but because he can tell the difference in shades of brown or grey.

Posted by: sabs May 9 2011, 02:35 PM

What's extra irritating, is that they imply that you can use astral senses to target people, the LOS Targeting rules specifically say that all visual modifiers apply when trying to target someone for a spell.

It's a pain in the ass. There's contradictions everywhere, and with 1 interpretations Ghouls cant' cast spells, in the other, Astral Sensing is like the super-awesome, why would you use anything else perception of win.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 9 2011, 02:58 PM

Never really had any issues with it personally.

Posted by: Dez384 May 9 2011, 03:00 PM

This is why:

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 03:07 PM

Yeah: physical vision uses physical Visibility mods, astral perception uses Astral Visibility mods.

Posted by: sabs May 9 2011, 03:14 PM

Where are these Astral Visibility mods
I've never seen one in any of the books I've read.

Posted by: Loch May 9 2011, 03:21 PM

I believe you can find them in Street Magic, p. 114

Posted by: sabs May 9 2011, 03:24 PM

so modifiers for a key core ability are in a splat book? That's.. awesome.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 03:26 PM

It's the core magic book, actually, I find it hard to belief you've never read it. In 'any of the books' you *have* read… there are only like 6 or so. I mean, if you're not using Street Magic, you're not even using Background Count, facrissake.

Several of the 'physical' modifiers also apply to Astral, AFAIK: Distracted -2, Interference -2, possibly the distance mods, etc. (and some of the bonuses, probably).

Posted by: sabs May 9 2011, 03:28 PM

Street Magic's the one main book I haven't read cover to cover :0
Mostly cause I hate playing Magic characters.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 03:34 PM

I think Cover used to apply to spellcasting as a visibility-style penalty, although they revamped the Cover rules later.

Astral Perception *is* a power. It's a benefit, and it should be beneficial. It does have its own unique limitations (LOS limits it versus hearing, for example), including the fact that you're a sitting target on the astral. Magic has always been the counter to magic, so send a random spirit to bother the mage if his super-vision is too annoying.

Posted by: Dez384 May 9 2011, 04:10 PM

Yes, the page I've been quoting

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 9 2011, 04:30 PM

Using Magic to Counter Magic... Now that is a revolutionary concept...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 9 2011, 04:30 PM

This limitation however is not explicitly stated. Vision is only used as an analog, since none of us has actually experienced astral perception. There are also characters who experience it more like other senses (especially blind people).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 9 2011, 04:33 PM

Exactly... Apparently, though, many people have latched onto this idea and stick with it. It does not really help that Astral Visibility Modifiers, and some of the conditions of Normal Visibility Modifiers, affects the Assensing Test.

At that point, it quickly becomes written in stone that Astral Perception is "Sight" for all intents and purposes.

Posted by: Mardrax May 9 2011, 04:52 PM

This is why I use a fair ammount of synethesia to describe Astral sensing. It helps people get out of the sight framework a bit. But it's still rough, either way.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 05:07 PM

The LOS limits of astral sense *are* explicitly stated. They go on and on about how things are astrally-opaque.

That's always been the central issue with astral sense in SR4: it's *not* sight, but it definitely has LOS limits. It definitely doesn't work through walls (or glass), like physical hearing, or around corners, like physical smell.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 9 2011, 05:30 PM

No Doubt, this is very true. But since Blind People can use Astral Perception, it is NOT sight, as you indicated above. As was said earlier, this is just the closest thing that we, as humans, can relate to. Humans do not typically target by Hearing or Smell, so ascribing a correspondence to them is rather pointless, but since Astral Perception does not employ actual Sight as a sense, it causes some issues in the verisimilitude department.

It is an interesting Connundrum.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 05:42 PM

I didn't realize we were only talking about targeting; that's a pity, because you use your perception for a lot more than that. I only wanted to reiterate that, whatever astral sense is, it has LOS limits. We know that for sure, 100%. It is a sense that works in all directions, but stops when it 'hits' any object (and is impeded by things like FAB 'smoke', some BC, etc.).

The simplest concept, for me, is a simplistic 'magic active sonar'. I know there's no ping, but it's basically omni-directional + direct LOS. I just wish we knew what the max range was.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 9 2011, 06:43 PM

Yeah, I know... Perception is a valuable thing... AS for the LOS Limits, well, you have to use something for a baseline, and Sight is what we use for such things. Not a perfect solution. I guess you could design something that would work, but we would have no real concept of functionality for a sense that is outside of our current purview. As well, it may introduce some insanities to what is a fairly simple concept. In the end, I am content to use "Sight" as the paradigm, as given in the books, even if it is not really "Sight."

Well, the maximum range for LOS is... LOS... IF you can "see them" then they are inside of your LOS.

Posted by: Nath May 9 2011, 08:00 PM

Regarding the "omni-directional" aspect of Astral Sight, I can't help thinking that if the authors were thinking it that way, they would have written down somewhere that assensing mages and adepts, spirits, ghouls and dual-natured entities at large can not be taken by surprise under nearly any circumstance.

Posted by: Dez384 May 9 2011, 08:13 PM

Eyeband gives you 360 degree vision, but -2 to perception tests. So if anything, omnidirectional 'sight' would hinder your perception.

Posted by: Halflife May 9 2011, 08:26 PM

I would assume that your Astral Sight would be similar to whatever your brain was used to processing. People tend to focus in a particular area of their sight even though they have a much wider cone of vision. I would assume the same would apply Astrally. If you are used to looking in only one direction at once due to your brain wiring you wouldn't be able to perceive omnidirectionally without giving yourself major issues.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 9 2011, 08:27 PM

Oh, what a tangled web we weave.....

Posted by: Mardrax May 9 2011, 08:33 PM

Since Shadowrun doesn't know a system of facing, any and all perception is omnidirectional.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 08:36 PM

Except it's magic. All we know is that the *eyeband* has that penalty… and that astral perception *probably* doesn't, or they'd have mentioned it. Astral perception does have that -2 to physical activities penalty; seems fair. (As we know, the eyeband is a worthless 'flavor' item. The SURGE version similarly mentions nothing about surprise, or indeed any crunch use at all for this 'bonus'.)

Nath, the book basically has no rules for 'where you're looking' with even normal vision (there's the Distracted -2 that I mentioned earlier). What makes you think it makes you 'immune to surprise'? Hell, the surprise rules barely mention anything like a 'didn't see them' requirement; they're very (almost uselessly, for me) abstract.

Posted by: Dez384 May 9 2011, 08:36 PM

Perception is omni-directional in the real world, just not all of our senses. Touch is omnidirectional since skin is all over our body. Smell and taste have preferred sectors of sense, but can receive data from any direction. Since astral perception is a psychic sense that is interpreted via regular senses, it too would be omnidirectional.

Posted by: Halflife May 9 2011, 08:37 PM

That isn't strictly true. If you are looking at something you must be focused on it. Therefore you are distracted and not observing other directions (and suffer a dice pool modifier to Perception). The only time you are actually observing omnidirectionally is when you take the observe in detail action since that is when you are not distracted by being focused on something.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 9 2011, 08:43 PM

Just to be picky: isn't Observe in Detail *exactly* when you're focused on something?

But, being distracted (-2) isn't the same as literally being unable to sense in all directions. It's a (moderate/small) penalty, that's all.

In any case, yes: no senses in SR4 have 'facing' rules, because all perception is abstract. Use the existing penalties as appropriate.

Posted by: Halflife May 9 2011, 08:45 PM

From the name you would think so. The point was more to illustrate that you are actually looking at things and not in fact perceiving it all perfectly simultaneously.

Posted by: Nath May 9 2011, 08:52 PM

Shadowrun 20th Anniversary introduced the "Defender unaware of attack" Defense Modifier, resulting in no defense roll, independently from Surprise effect. The Modifier description reads "If the defender is unaware of the attack (he does not see the attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense is possible. Treat the attack as a Success Test instead. This does not apply to defenders who are already engaged in combat."

Posted by: Dez384 May 9 2011, 09:11 PM

It is assumed that if a defender is already in combat, he is paying attention to his surrounding.

Posted by: Halflife May 9 2011, 09:29 PM

I know I would be

Posted by: Dez384 May 9 2011, 09:33 PM

The sympathetic nervous system has already been initialized.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 10 2011, 02:31 AM

I agree, Nath, but that's all GM-fiat. It relies on the player admitting that he's looking elsewhere, or the GM deciding it. It's also not a Surprise, which is a wonky Initiative comparison test. I guess you meant 'surprise situation' instead of 'SR4 Surprise test', sorry for my confusion. I agree that 360 Vision, Eyeband, or Astral Perception are all good (if fluffy) arguments the ambush-ee can use to argue with the GM about it.

Posted by: Dez384 May 10 2011, 02:54 AM

It isn't that the character doesn't necessarily 'see' or 'perceive' the assailant; it is that they aren't expecting the attack. Whether that is a teammate stabbing them with a shiv or a masseuse trying to snap their neck during a massage.

Posted by: capt.pantsless May 10 2011, 02:55 AM

All that said, if your PC's are getting too powerful, it's perfectly appropriate to have some bad-guys sneak-up on them and sucker-punch them. While the PC's should get a perception check to sense the attack, even if coming from behind, there's nothing said that the GM can't roll it in secret. (which is another reason why you should write-down a few key numbers from the PC's sheets)

This is especially great if you're distracting both the real-life players and the PC's in-game with something interesting. Negotiating with a fence, for example.

Posted by: Halflife May 10 2011, 02:59 AM

Or getting shelled while you are inside a tent

Posted by: Udoshi May 10 2011, 04:01 AM

Intertial Triggers fix this problem. For hella cheap, too. Go arsenal!

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 10 2011, 04:09 AM

… huh?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 10 2011, 12:52 PM

There seems to be some confusion about your post Udoshi. Would you mind clarifying how Inertial Triggers apply to Perception. Because, apparently, I am not seeing it.

Posted by: Udoshi May 10 2011, 12:57 PM

They're able to automatically change node settings when they detect movement.
Headband perception penalties only apply when the user is in motion.

So for 25 nuyen, you get the best of both worlds. Full coverage when you're not moving, no penalties when you are.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 10 2011, 12:58 PM

So, how does changing your "node settings" remove the penalties for movement? I still don't see that. At best, it just shuts off 360 degree sight. It is more a security device, best used as a trigger for explosives or other such nastiness.

Posted by: James McMurray May 10 2011, 01:53 PM

Eyeband gives a -2 when using 360 degree vision and in motion. It gives no penalties when you stop moving or when in "normal vision" mode. Use the inertial trigger to put the eyeband in 360 mode when you're not moving and in normal mode when you are. Voila!

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 10 2011, 02:02 PM

Oh. Jeez. I dunno if I'd call it fixing the problem, because you're still losing the whole point of having the eyeband. Also, considering how often you're in motion, that amounts to an Observe in Detail.

Posted by: Mardrax May 10 2011, 02:17 PM

You still get the increased slots for the headband though.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 10 2011, 03:31 PM

I am now envisioning Street Samurai Geordi La Forge jogging in place while looking for an important clue.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 10 2011, 06:32 PM

You mean 'decreased' capacity. Eyeband sucks.

On the plus side, you can instantly 'turn your head' any direction… if you're not wearing anything blocking it (hair, etc.). I feel like this sucker would look very weird in 2070, even more than Mr. La Forge, Cyclops, or Robocop. Something's funky about it going all the way around.

Posted by: Mardrax May 10 2011, 06:38 PM

Something with capacity, anyway

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 10 2011, 06:43 PM

Rolling in secret in a possible TPK situation requires a lot of trust from your players. I would rather roll or have the GM roll openly. And then the dice fall where they fall.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 10 2011, 06:58 PM

Yeah, I can agree with that, although I suspect it's really the backhalf that bothers me more than anything. For example, Geordi's half-band just looks like goofy eyewear to me even though wraps back to around to just in front of his ears without changing much. Meanwhile, I always thought that http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/47/Lobothead.jpg from the Empire Strikes Back was more offputting, with the natural eyes kinda emphasizing that there wasn't any particularly natural reason for that crap sticking out the back of his noggin. And even if it's an eyeband is much sleeker than Lobot's implants it still sounds like the band would be fairly obvious given that you need a hair style that doesn't obscure anything to get the full effect from an eye band.

Posted by: capt.pantsless May 10 2011, 07:13 PM

Certainly, you can also pull the usual counter-metagaming trick of occasionally asking for random perception checks, or something similar. Either way, the effect is the same - if the PC's start getting tough, try catching them off-guard.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 10 2011, 08:16 PM

Smell is "omnidirectional". It gets blocked.

Just because a sense is unlimited in it direction does not mean there are no barriers or limits to what is seen in the environment.

Even with the limited forward arc of vision, there are things in that forward arc you do not see because of blocking items.

Everything in front of me is in LOS, but do I see everything? That's where cover and other modifiers come in.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 10 2011, 09:52 PM

Exactly... It is not a fix.

And HEAD MOTION is still motion. Try NOT MOVING at all sometime, it is a real nuissance. You will always suffer the penalty in 360 Degree Mode because you can't not move your head when observing, unless you are staring at a fixed point. At which point, I would STILL call you distracted.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2011, 01:55 AM

I could be wrong, but "take the wording to asinine extremes" doesn't seem like it's the author's intent.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 01:56 AM

It is not an asanine extreme. It says you suffer a penalty for movement. Sorry, but Movement is Movement. Just because you do not agree does not make it a valid statement.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2011, 02:03 AM

Are you claiming that's what the author meant? No? Didn't think so...

:yawn:

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 02:14 AM

Actually, Yeah, I am... *Yawn*
Don't presume to put words in, or pull words out of, my mouth.
Besides, it is a dumb peice of tech anyways, precisely because there is no mechanical benefit from the 360 Degree Vision.

Posted by: toturi May 11 2011, 02:43 AM

What if they are tough because they are never off guard?

If a PC is designed around being perceptive, you can be sure that the player will be asking for perception checks nearly constantly, even if the GM does not ask for such checks. In any case, if the PCs can be vulnerable when caught off guard and be caught off guard, then they are not too strong.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2011, 03:58 AM

I never said it was a good thing to have in the game, just that your ideas of what to expect from normal human beings (the authors) was, at least in this case, asinine. I guess we'll have to agree to have our own opinions and let others have theirs, with you thinking they meant any motion whatsoever caused a penalty, and me thinking they meant something slightly more useful.

Have fun!

Posted by: Fortinbras May 11 2011, 04:04 AM

I don't know, the street samurai in my games LOVES his eyeband. Mechanical benefit or no, he just thinks it looks cool as hell.
That's enough of a benefit for me.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 11 2011, 04:08 AM

Well, it says "when in motion", but that's not a huge difference. On the other hand, name one place in the rules that the authors tried to introduce "head movement" as a game mechanic. It's pretty obvious that the intention is to apply the penalty when your character is in a situation where their movement speed could be conceivably be applied (shuffling, walking, running, sprinting, etc.).

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 04:18 AM

It really doesn't matter, unless someone (TJ, tsk) was arguing that you're literally never not moving. The point is that the eyeband 360 penalty almost always applies; basically, except when you specifically stop and look. That's very much like taking an Observe in Detail (not 'same as'), in that it's an intentional special circumstance.

I can certainly see the player saying to the GM, 'hey, I'm not moving, don't you dare take away my Perception check to see that guy behind me'. It's just not a very solid 'bonus', and I don't see the motion sensors really helping. After all, you can already adjust your field of vision mentally; they just save you some free actions. For the price, definitely do it, but it's not a 'fix'.

Except we were talking about astral perception (and that was *already* 3 jumps off-topic)! Astral perception is definitely all directions, being psychic hearing/smell/sonar/whatever. It's similar to Matrix Perception, in that you see objects, then make a test for detailed info. It's also similar to sight, yes, because of LOS/object opacity issues. If the 360-ness ever comes up (almost never), the GM should allow a normal Assensing test with appropriate penalties.

Posted by: capt.pantsless May 11 2011, 04:22 AM

Well, then you just need to start getting creative. It's rather easy to hide when you're 500+ meters away in a well-camo'd sniper's nest. Hell, it's a damned good bit of drama if you do it right:

The PC's are talking with a trusted fixer in an alley behind a bar when suddenly they hear a 'thunk' of something hitting the pavement a few meters away from where they're standing. That's just the dial-in shot where the sniper's getting the range right. Give the PC's a second to realize what's happening and dive for cover, and then spring the next part of the trap. If the players enjoy tactical combat, they might dig the added challenge of fighting while under fire from a sniper. Just make sure to not headshot anyone right away.

Posted by: toturi May 11 2011, 08:17 AM

Well, then Mr Perceptive would have immediately matched bearings, spot your sniper and returned the shot. Perhaps he would not have been able to hit the sniper but in this case, the real litmus test of Mr Perceptive is to be able spot the sniper on such short notice. I am not denying that a well built sniper can easily hide and stay hidden, but I am saying that if Mr Perceptive really is too strong, I would expect him to be able to spot the sniper even before he takes the shot.

And that is if Mr Perceptive is not also Mr Lucky or Mr Precognitive (or all 3!)

Posted by: Udoshi May 11 2011, 01:41 PM

Bingo, got it in one.

Its not exactly the best of both worlds, but it does save you actions to change the settings.


The best use I've found for an eyeband is with an Eye Tool Laser - its only 3P, but its still AP Half, and has a 360 degree field of fire. Being able to, say, burn handcuffs or locks, or light cigarettes is useful. You can even get decent dice doing a surprise attack with it (smartlink mod, take aim, take aim, take aim, called shot, surprise no defense, sangre y acero if you're feeling ridiculous, tacnet) - but, really, using Take Aim and a +4DV/-4dice Called Shot more or less cancels it out, and a rather concealable 7P AP Half weapon isn't THAT bad. Not sure its worth the cost, though.

I've considered using a Sammy with Drone backup using an eye comm laser to communicate with his hunting pack of drone. So, basically, Geordi laforge with a bunch of doberman running around with (small) laser beams at each other. Geordi la cylon?

The other thing to consider about Eyebands is that you can take vision mods against your essence as well as in capacity. You don't get quite as much room as a cybereye, but if, say, you have a 'natural' eye mod hen you can still get other vision mods in the band, and other things that DONT need 360 Degree vision(like smartlinks) on your essence.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 01:48 PM

Wait. Doesn't it replace your eyes? How do you get natural eye mods with no eyes? In your own special way, you're the munchkinest, Udoshi.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2011, 02:07 PM

Que?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 11 2011, 02:16 PM

A martial art developed by Aztlan. It's in Arsenal.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 02:23 PM

Apparently it works on laser eyes.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2011, 02:29 PM

Why shouldn't it? Sure, the stuff about melee weapons and blades isn't going to, but "reduce the ranged combat “attacker in melee combat” modifier by 1" should.

Though, unfortunately an eyeband can't have laser eyes by the RAW. They only get vision enhancers, and the eye laser modification specifies that it can only be installed in cybereyes.

Personally, I'd allow it. but I'm not overly concerned about a 360 degree 3P weapon in a game that doesn't usually have facing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 02:31 PM

The Rule of Cool is a completely different realm from mechanical usefulness... Oftentimes, the Rule of Cool wins out. Style over Substance after all.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 02:33 PM

Scolding Accepted... But I maintain my position, and apparently yours as well. You have to Specifically State that you are NOT MOVING to negate the penalty if you are using 360 Degree field of vision. And Not Moving has its own penalties involved...

Posted by: longbowrocks May 11 2011, 02:46 PM

Wouldn't you be "not moving" most of the time when your in combat using cover?

Posted by: Udoshi May 11 2011, 03:42 PM

Actually, that ones my bad. Forgot to check it. While it IS certainly a creative use of '+1 to exotic weapon attacks in an unusual location'....

Its actually Exotic Melee Weapon attacks, not exotic ranged, so it doesn't work.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 04:44 PM

Ummmmm............ No... Ever been in combat? I have, and no, you are never not moving.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2011, 04:55 PM

It comes back to what "moving" means in the case of eyebands. If it means "any physical motion" then no, you're always in motion. If it means using your movement rate to walk, run, crawl, etc. then there will be many times in a combat* where you're not moving.

* at least an RPG combat, where outflanking maneuvers and taking ground usually don't matter. If your GM is the type to hand out Superior Position bonuses frequently, "movement rate" motion is a lot more likely to happen.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 05:06 PM

At least, at our tables, your caveat above is very important. Superior position and taking ground covers a lot of area. 360 Degree vision has got to be very disorienting, regardless how much practive you have with it. I picture it as akin to spinning around in circles and trying to focus on ANYTHIHNG at all. Seems to me that this would be much of what you are getting.

Opinions and all, but that just seems more "right" than only getting the penalty when actually Walking, running, crawling, driving, or whatever. Since your body is almost constantly in motion, (in three dimensions), and since it is extremely difficult to actually stabilize your head into immobility, I go with the concept that the Eyeband, in 360 Degree Mode, is heavily disorienting. Unfortunately, it is only a -2 Penalty. Easily overcome with mods and whatnot.

Personal Preference I guess.

Posted by: Udoshi May 11 2011, 05:15 PM

Also, learning to adjust to that disorientation - wth the eyeband spec for perception - is equally valid as a way to counteract the -2.

Edit: Actually, the eyeband penalty isn't just to Perception like it thought. Nevermind the above, its actually a lot harsher than I thought it was.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 05:20 PM

Indeed, it is to everything that you do. Much Like Astral Perception is to everything not Magical. It SHOULD be that harsh in my opinion.

Posted by: Udoshi May 11 2011, 06:15 PM

You can always fit Eyeware on your essence, chummer. Its just -usually- done so as a natural eye mod. But it doesn't have to be.

You don't have to use Capacity if you don't want to. (its still a good, cost-effective idea), but if you're using an eyeband, you can always take the extra mods that don't fit against essence.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 06:40 PM

I don't believe that. You literally don't have eyes anymore, how can you have natural-eye eyeware?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 07:23 PM

Can't argue with those quotes, can you? For what it is worth, I also agree with you...

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2011, 07:44 PM

Couldn't you have the cyberband on your head, in place of your normal eyes. Then get a single cybereye on a palm, your forehead, or under your left nut?

I don't know why you'd want to, but unless eyeware is limited in how many you can have, it looks like it should be possible.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 07:53 PM

You could. That option has its own penalties… and almost no benefits. But, who said you couldn't?

Posted by: Mardrax May 11 2011, 07:54 PM

You could even go for the Third Eye negative Surge quality.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 08:04 PM

In which case, you could get the Essence mods. … Still not worth it, because the separate mods don't stack like that. :/

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 08:59 PM

Indeed.... And it is just weird, to boot.

Posted by: Mardrax May 11 2011, 09:29 PM

...I believe this is where "Yeah. It's SURGE" comes into play. There's a reason any SURGEing gets Distinctive Style. Flavour though. Have to love it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 09:30 PM

But an Eyeband is not SURGEing. It is Tech. Of course, you may be talking about the Third Eye Thingy...
And yes, you definitely got to love that Flavour.