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Posted by: The Jopp May 10 2011, 01:21 PM

Meet Einsten.

Einstein isn't the fastest brain in the block and will take some fair time before getting a point. Einstein has one very specific quality though, he's an expert hacker and an adept...well, the second part is true, sort of and the first part...well, not so much.

Would you argue with the mentally challenged nine feet Fomori Troll who has the ability to throw a pillow through an engine block?

Einstein is basically muscle but got the idea that hacking is very useful and got some basic gear from a hacker (or what was left of the hacker) that he got into a technical argument about (dont ask).

Before he knew it he learned about spoofing and got a year worth of free housing and beer...until the various corporations got to him that he scammed...

Let's just say that before he even became an adequate hacker he left some traces.

Now he's broke, in debt and need a job.

ATTRIBUTES (Modified by ware)
BODY: 8
AGILITY: 8
REACTION: 5
STRENGTH: 14 (18 for throwing attacks)
CHARISMA: 2
LOGIC: 1
INTUITION: 3
WILLPOWER: 3
MAGIC: 5 (2)

QUALITIES
5 Adept
10 Changeling II
-30 In Debt (Various Corporations)
5 Martial Arts (Aikido)
5 Restricted Gear (Muscle Augmentation)
5 Restricted Gear (Muscle Toner)
5 Restricted Gear (Suprathyroid Gland)

SKILLS
Cybercombat [IC] 1/3
Electronic Warfare [Communications] 1/3
Electronics Group 1
Hacking [Spoof] 1/3
Perception [Visual] 1/3
Clubs [Improvised] 1/3
Martial Arts [Aikido] 1/3
-Maneuver [Throw] -
-Maneuver [Aijuitsu] -
Athletics 1
Dodge [Ranged] 1/3
Stealth 1
Throwing [Improvised] 4/6
Etiquette [Gang] 2/4
Groundcraft [Bike] 1/3

CONTACTS
Eddie "Cheap Eddie" Nakamura CON1/LOY3 Fixer
Elena "The Butcher" Totchenka CON1/LOY4 Street Doc

WARE
Muscle Augmentation 4
Muscle Toner 4
Reflex Recorder [Aikido]
Reflex Recorder [Throwing]
Suprathyroid Gland
Synaptic Booster

Changeling Abilities
Metagenic Improvement [Strength]
Sensitive System

ADEPT POWERS
Missile Mastery
Power Throw [4]
Killing Hands

GEAR [75K]
A commlink and trodes for spoofing his lifestyle (and spoofing his debts) optimized for spoofing [10D6]
Commlink has an armor case [10], EMP protection and is water proofed.

An entertainment systems cyclops with carrying case (it's small).

Usually armed with ball bearings, playing cards, pillows and (if available) an elephant (yes, the animal, not the rifle)

Posted by: Fyndhal May 10 2011, 01:27 PM

Power Throw has max Ranks of 3. Otherwise, an amusing build.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 10 2011, 01:35 PM

Interesting Character, but:

- Power throw will not help you above level 1.
- Your Maximum Augmented Strength caps out at 16 (Not 18). You get no real benefit from Power Throw at all beyond Rank 1.
- Another Hacker with a Logic of 1... *shakes Head*
- Can't hack without Programs. None on your list that I could see. Though it is possible you wrapped it up in the Comlink Description with a Rating 6 Spoof Program, Optimized Comlink (Spoof), and Hacking Skill of 1 (+2 Spoof) for your 10dp

Anyways... Like I said, Interesting.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 10 2011, 01:35 PM

According to the sheet, he purchased 2 ranks.

Posted by: IKerensky May 10 2011, 02:00 PM

"who has the ability to throw a pillow through an engine block"

Need a lot more than 18 in STR to manage that peculiar trick. Guess you need a Strength and then I am not even sure you can. My safe bet is that you will end with a very flat pillow... and an intact engine block.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 10 2011, 02:00 PM

A troll hacker with a Logic of 1... are you trolling or trying to make a point?

Posted by: CeeJay May 10 2011, 02:09 PM

A troll (or a fomori) has an augmented agility cap of 7, hasn't he?

-CJ

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 10 2011, 02:14 PM

Another hacker following the RAW, what's the world coming to!?

Not that I'd call this a hacker; it's a throwing adept with a commlink, like all characters should have.

Posted by: The Jopp May 10 2011, 02:14 PM

I cannot find anywhere where it states that you cap power throw against maximum attribute?

"Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s effective
Strength solely for the purpose of determining range and
damage of thrown weapons and objects."



Oh come on.

At least trolls have an actual excuse as their max value is 4 so their median value would be 2 so he's just below average logic.

And note that I say logic, not intelligence. He might take his sweet time pondering things but one week after the brighter dudes he'll get to the same conclusion - He's just a bit slower, not dumber.



Yea well, i couldnt be arsed and write down all his crappy gear so I just made a description of the most needed things all wrapped into one.

Posted by: The Jopp May 10 2011, 02:19 PM

Right, you argument with the smart troll if he is a hacker or not, He will use his most proffessional mediator Mr.Fist.

Posted by: Irion May 10 2011, 02:27 PM

As a matter of fact, I do not get what everyone has with Trolls.
Yes, he gets a nice Range and a lot of DAMAGE, but why not stick with an orc and be half as big.
Alone the Problem of Transportation is a big drawback for Trolls.

So yeah he gets 18P and the Range of a sporting rifle. So what?
When do you ever need more than 11P?
But as a drawback his pool for hitting stuff will be limited.
Agility is caped at 7.

I mean the hole point of an throwing adept is, that you do not need any kind of supicious gear. (I mean a card deck, come on)
As soon as you get masking you will be one of a million lightly cybered guys.

(Or you might be still a Troll with the size of a car)

Posted by: The Jopp May 10 2011, 02:45 PM

Roleplaying?



Actually it's STR/2 for throwing and unarmed so it's 9P or 9S (Adepts choice)



When the bloodspirit posessed dragon hits the fan?

Posted by: Stahlseele May 10 2011, 03:09 PM

And we are back at Pink Mo against Black Trenches . .

Posted by: The Jopp May 10 2011, 03:13 PM

My preferred play is Pink Mohawk in Black Trenchcoat - Keeping silliness at a managable level.

Posted by: PoliteMan May 10 2011, 03:19 PM

[quote name='Yerameyahu' date='May 10 2011, 10:14 PM' post='1067971']
Not that I'd call this a hacker; it's a throwing adept with a commlink, like all characters should have.
[/quote
Yep.

Honestly, I'm not sure what kind of hacking this character is supposed to do. You might be able to spoof low rating devices and spoof your lifestyle, if you invest in a decent program, but beyond that.

Good programs won't make up for a lack of ware and skill.

If you want to a bit of hacking, either focus on spoofing stuff or just mook it and save the BP.

Posted by: Draco18s May 10 2011, 03:24 PM

A friend of mine has wanted to make a troll hacker for years, summed up in the line of:

*PUNCHES FIST INTO COMPUTER* "This look like hard drive. Me take."

Posted by: Stahlseele May 10 2011, 03:31 PM

I once tried to smuggle Black Mohawk in Pink Trenchcoat by my GM . .
Sadly, he caught it just as he was going to accept the character <.<#

I think i still remember you mentioning that for the first time ^^

Posted by: Draco18s May 10 2011, 03:38 PM

Yup. I pointed him at this thread too, he prefers a more shotgun style over melee, but likes the fact that someone else had a similar idea.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 10 2011, 06:29 PM

It's not an insult or anything, The Jopp. I just meant that I don't see a hacker in the numbers. He might well *call* himself one.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 10 2011, 09:48 PM

Augmented Maximums count, regardless of where the augmentation comes from. That is why they are called MAXIMUMS.

Posted by: CanRay May 10 2011, 11:50 PM

You know... A Fixer with a Connection Rating of 1 has to be the worst Fixer in the world! He, what, runs a Pawn Shop and is so anti-social no one ever goes to him?

Posted by: Stahlseele May 10 2011, 11:53 PM

Close enough.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 May 11 2011, 12:14 AM

I like the idea of someone just saying they are good at hacking. Or just having one worthwhile trick. Seems like it is normally not worth it. This is making use of the bare minimum of investment.

Besides I hear throw adepts are not that fun to play, because they are a bit of a one trick pony. But this guy has two tricks!

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 12:16 AM

Give 'im an 'uge choppa an' 'e will be bloody good at hackin'

Posted by: CanRay May 11 2011, 12:20 AM

If his CommLink is painted red, does it process fasta?

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 12:21 AM

If anything, it would have to go red from lining to process fasta ^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 01:54 AM

Throwing Adepts can be a LOT of fun to play. Just not the monstrosities that are generally seen here. The Ninja Throwing Adept that I have is tons of fun, but that is because he is effective, even withouth the Adept powers that he has.

Just Sayin'

Posted by: Irion May 11 2011, 08:25 AM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
By RAW it does not count against the max, because the max is for strengh and not for effectiv strength.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 08:49 AM

Someone on the offcial boar just posted an idea for a troll throwing adept throwing mortar rounds . .

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 02:18 PM

Prove it... Give me a Quote... I mean really, if you use that argument, then Muscle Augmentation does not affect Strength Maximums, because it is only effective strength, because it is not natural. Hell, you could apply that logic to ANY Attribute augmentation using that logic. Which is why I call BS.

Effective Strength IS Strength. For all intents and purposes you have a Higher STRENGTH for throwing things. That Strength CANNOT EXCEED your Augmented Maximum. You cannot go above that.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 02:21 PM

That is Entertaining. Not that I would allow that, mind you, but it is entertaining.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 02:29 PM

Why not?
He is, in effect, just throwing Bigger Impact Detonator Grenades *snickers* ^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 02:38 PM

This is true. Cannot argue that. For me, however, it is ludicrous. I also do not allow the throwing of Grenades for Impact Damage, followed by Detonation Damage. Again, it is WAY to Pink Mohawk for me.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin May 11 2011, 02:57 PM

Were I playing that kind of character, I'd be doing it just so I don't have to lug the launcher around. I wouldn't even ask about the impact damage as I just hit the target with a fraggin' mortar. I mean really, why worry about a few stun or physical when it takes an HE mortar round to the face?

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 03:30 PM

just because you can? ^^
also, the nicest thing about using them as throwing weapons like this?
NO SCATTER!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 04:42 PM

Yes, the lack of scatter Would be a great bonus. Except that you are wrong about that. Thrown explosive devices still have scatter. See the rules for Grenades. I know, it does not make sense for a Greande (or Mortar Round, or tank round or whatever) to have scatter, and a thrown knife/shuriken/ball-beraing/etc. to not have it, but there you go.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 04:44 PM

Maybe, but if you allow the projectile to deal the damage from being thrown at the target, it has to have directly HIT the target. Thus, NO SCATTER.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 04:45 PM

I agree... But that is where you and I are in disagreement. I would not allow the use of explosive ordnance as directed thrown attacks. You would use the grenade rules. Which have Scatter...

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 04:47 PM

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3608.0
why would you not allow this? ^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 04:52 PM

You could throw it... Never said you could not. What I said was that you would use the Grenade Scatter Rules for such things. I would not allow "Direct Fire" throwing for something like this. If it will explode after contact, or whatever, It will use the Grenade Scatter Rules. If it acts like a Bullet, then you get to use "Direct Fire" methods. You get to choose whichever works for you, but you will not get both in one fell swoop.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 05:01 PM

OK so . . i take projectile a here, which has about the form of a foot ball . . and weights in at about 1kilo . . and now i throw it at . . that damn elf over there . . so i use the thrown weapon projectile rules . .
Now i . . i take projectile b here, which has about the form of a foot ball . . and weights in at about 1 kilo . . but is filled with da splosives and an impact detonator . . and now i throw it at . . that damn elf over there . . and now i use the rules for grenades with scatter . . why exactly?
I aim to hit him with my thrown weapons skill O.o
explain please, i don't get it ._.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 05:14 PM

A... Yes.
B... Yes.

Because that is what the rules say to do. Explosives have scatter. Thus you use the Grenade Scatter Rules.
You Aim to hit the Elf with a Normal Grenade (which also weighs in at about a kilo ro so) with your Thrown Weapons Skill too; and yet you have scatter rules for such things. I am only using the rules already in place.

I Did not say that it made sense, just that I was using the rules that were already in place. It is far easier than trying to come up with either a whole new combat system based in reality (boring) or houseruling it into oblivion (tedious). And it is simple to easily classify which in-place rule to use. If it is non-Explosive, you Have No Scatter. If it is Explosive, You have scatter equal to the Grenade Scatter Rules. Simple and Easy.

I know you do not agree with that. There are a lot of combat rules I do not agree with myself. But you know what. They are simple and easy to implement, and they do not have a Thousand Exeptions, like a system based upon real life would. All in all, I am very happy with the combat system in Shadowrun. Even with its quirks.

Posted by: Draco18s May 11 2011, 05:14 PM

Welcome to Scatter Doesn't Make Any God Damn Sense.
(This is right up there with rockets having an average scatter of twice its blast radius)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 05:18 PM

Again, I agree... But I believe that the Scatter rules were implemented to, ultimately, save PC's lives. Realistically, using what would truly be there, you would likely die if hit by grenades/rockets/missiles. Makes for a bery boring game with high lethality. They toned down the immediately lethal stuiff to make it not quite so lethal.

Experiencially (is that a word?), I can attest to Grenade/Rocket/Missile Scatter being Minimal, at best. On those few occassions that I missed, it was by a very small margin. And generally because I had under/overestimated its range, not because of left/right deviation.

Posted by: Dez384 May 11 2011, 05:20 PM

Maybe a scatter die should be used for any thrown attack.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 05:21 PM

Thrown Attacks are generally pretty spot on, otherwise most of our sports would really suck to watch. It is not a problem with the Thrown attacks at their core, it is a problem with how they differentiated Thrown Attacks between Direct, and Indirect types of effect. Unfortunately, Explosive Ordnance is treated as Indirect.

Posted by: Draco18s May 11 2011, 05:27 PM

Airbursting, or no?

Posted by: Dez384 May 11 2011, 05:29 PM

A better way to solve this issue is that people who have specialized in throwing grenades or have something like Missile Mastery could ignore scatter.

Weapon Scatter is a bit unrealistic, but it makes gameplay interesting.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 05:30 PM

In what way? During My tenure in the Corps, I had no access to airbursting ordnance. I understand that there are some that are now available to ground troops. Remember, in game, all airbursting does is to reduce Scatter. It does not negate it directly.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 05:33 PM

The problem is that it then removes the balancing factor of explosive ordnance. Unrealistic though it may be, Scatter keeps the Characters alive. Believe me, it is no fun when you are told that "you see a great white light" and are then forced to create a new character because the one you were playing just died from a rocket hit to his car. Whether he was aware/unaware of it prior to the actual impact. Is that real? Yes. Is that FUN? Not really.

The Scatter rules do indeed make the gameplay interesting.

Posted by: Draco18s May 11 2011, 05:44 PM

I meant in game.

It turns an unguided rocket's scatter from 4d6 to 2d6, taking the average from 14 meters (over 3 times the blast radius) to 7, reduced by net hits.
Maximum scatter goes from 24 to 12. Also note that the new maximum is less than the old average, thereby making the "worst airburst can do" be "slightly better than average" without it.

I shall also note that 7 net hits is more than enough for a critical success, and yet still leaves room enough for complete failure (scatter roll of 12, minus 7, leaves 5 which is greater than the blast radius).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 06:03 PM

I See what you mean... And Yes, I agree. Scatter was MUCH better in SR4. However, in some scenarios, there must also be a bit of common sense applied. If I throw a grenade down a hallway, it WILL NOT scatter left or right, and will not likely scatter back unless it hit something and bounced backwards.

By the same token, a Rocket shot on a target 10 Meters wide, by 3 Meters tall is still likely to hit the target, assuming you use Airburst (Yeah, I know) and aim center mass. Again, the only likely miss category is if you miss High or low.

Common Sense solves a lot of problems.

The rules are wonky. I agree. But bringing them in-line with what they should be would result in a lot of dead NPC's/PC's. Which is fine, if that is hwat you are going with. Personally, I am okay with Grenade Scatter, and we do not use Military grade Rockets/Missiles enough for me to really care about the rules for those. Each Table will resolve this intheir own way. Best recourse is to return to the SR4 Tables for Scatter.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 06:44 PM

Not to encourage this foray *back* into The Great Scatter Discussion, but you can't airburst link your *thrown* explosives.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 07:28 PM

Just out of curiousity, Why Not. An Airburst Link is a Smartgun Accessory. It would be Sheer stupidity to do so, but by the rules, you could use it for even a Thrown Grenade. However, it does not really matter, as Thrown Grenades have less scatter than an Airburst Link would provide anyways. Using an Airburst Link for a Thrown Grenade would INCREASE the Scatter to 2d6 Meters, -1 per Net Hit. Not the smartest move in my opinion.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 11 2011, 07:30 PM

Well, a SMART Link does not a SMART move make *snickers*
Also, Impact Detonator is much more usefull anyway . .

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 07:45 PM

You just answered your own question: smartgun accessory, not throwing arm accessory. You're right, though: I skimmed the discussion too quickly and I only mentioned it because someone else did.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 08:56 PM

Well, the Airburst link is used to program smart grenades... there is no deliniation to what is a smart grenade, whether it is thown or launched. I do not use it because it hunders you in that respect for thrown grenades, but is still useful for launched grenades.

And Stahlseele, An Impact Detonator is not really useful either, unless you are using Direct Fire rules (treating it like a bullet), instead of the Indirect Rules that Scatter uses.

Posted by: The Jopp May 11 2011, 09:22 PM

Let's see...

Smartgun System in Cybereye

Smartlinked Grenade in hand.

Set grenade to detonate under the following conditions

Minimum Range= Explosion Radius+1 meter
Allowed Altitude= Minimum 0,5 meters above ground or at 0,0 meter above ground.

Throw grenade and watch the fireworks.

Since all grenades are programmable with timers and with an added smartgun link you gain even more options I do not see the problem.

You could even set the grenade to go off close to someone's commlink icon within X meters.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 09:33 PM

Except that when throwing a grenade, you have to take into account the Scatter. It does not matter what happens with the explosive (regardless of how you have programmed it) if your scatter puts it 6 meters away from the target at its closest proximity. Grenades do not function like Bullets do in the game, regardless of how they function in real life.