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Posted by: risingstar May 11 2011, 12:46 AM

I know that I have asked this before, but I still can't find it since the original Dumpshock archives went down and the new one has broken links.

The ammo I am looking for is a custom creation named the Hi-Explosive Armor Piercing Depleted Uranium Core round, or HEAPDUC for short. If anyone can give me a hand, please help.

-Risingstar

Posted by: redwulf25 May 11 2011, 12:54 AM

What the hell is that ammo used for, killing planets?

Posted by: risingstar May 11 2011, 01:00 AM

Close enough. Though I plan on using it against Aztecnology, Lone Star, and others.

Posted by: jakephillips May 11 2011, 01:12 AM

Just stick with Capsule rounds with Seven Seven or some other deadly poison and those not in a chem suit just die. Probably cheaper.

Posted by: Critias May 11 2011, 01:13 AM

So take all the stuff you like about the ammo types you're trying to incorporate, tell the GM you want all of 'em in one round, and ask him for an availability/price.

Posted by: Rasumichin May 11 2011, 01:20 AM

DU is basically covered by AV rounds.
If that isn't enough for you, add +2 to their Damage Value, increase Availability by +5, double the price and make sure to bribe your DM.
Or do as every sensible person does and get a post-errata Thunderstruck.

Don't let me begin to think about what would happen if you use that kind of ordnance against cops, my sadistic GM sense is tingling already.
It's not as if a good shooter couldn't bring down every copper with weapons and ammo that don't make them call in every available SWAT team in the entire state.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 11 2011, 01:32 AM

SWAT? This sounds more like a military level ammo, and so would have really heavy players come onto the field.

Posted by: CanRay May 11 2011, 01:38 AM

Ah, like the old days when APDS was The Bomb! And required a 'Run into a military base to get, and you typically used up more than half of it just getting out.

Posted by: Draco18s May 11 2011, 01:47 AM

Those were the good old days, weren't they, Chummer?

Posted by: CanRay May 11 2011, 01:57 AM

Yeah, wish I could have enjoyed them.

STILL haven't been able to play.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 02:34 AM

Just for the sake of argument… what? It's a uranium penetrator that *then* explodes (somehow)?

Posted by: CanRay May 11 2011, 02:38 AM

I remember the EXLAP (Explosive-Light Armour Piercing) rounds from Aliens. I described them to a friend as: "Like Ex-Lax, but with explosives."

This was back home, so the explosives joke didn't scare everyone.

Posted by: Draco18s May 11 2011, 02:54 AM

Apparently. As far as I can tell, he mashed some adjectives together.
I've never heard of HEAPDUC rounds before.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 03:50 AM

But it's so catchy!

Anyway, OP, what exactly do you need? As others mentioned, ammo numbers are just +/- DV, +/- AP (assigned seemingly at random). Just look at the existing stuff, powergame it up, realize WAR! already beat you to it, add more power, and presto! Hipducks.

Posted by: capt.pantsless May 11 2011, 04:00 AM

Why use depleted uranium when regular non-depleted uranium would also add radiation sickness to the target as well? Clearly you're not thinking this all the way through.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 11 2011, 04:21 AM

Use plutonium and shoot *really* big bullets. That way, it penetrates, then the impact drives the two masses of Pu together, causing a nuclear explosion! We'll call them HEAPPUUCs. Just like when designated-driving someone's friend home: 'he pukes, you die'.

Posted by: CanRay May 11 2011, 04:45 AM

Depleted Uranium isn't depleted quite enough to not prevent radiation sickness. Just make it take longer.

Posted by: TheOOB May 11 2011, 05:38 AM

Do we care if the metal objects your firing at people at supersonic speeds make them sick after awhile?

Posted by: CanRay May 11 2011, 05:42 AM

Well, I heard that they make buckshot out of steel now, rather than lead...

Posted by: imperialus May 11 2011, 06:12 AM

Actually the big concern for the long term health implications for soldiers who have to handle it regularly. Plus the effects of DU on the health of a civilian population in an urban center where it is used does not make for happy reading.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1255312/Birth-defects-Fallujah-rise-U-S-operation.html

Posted by: IKerensky May 11 2011, 06:25 AM

You are asking for an ammunition that is both : Depleted Uranium Core AND High Explosive.

Basically you are asking for something that prove you have no knowledge of what you are asking for. As a GM I would be delighted to provide you with such an ammunition, just as will be every salesman in every shop you enter, "of course they come at an hefty price but I just happen to have a box left right behind the corner. Sure the box doesn't say HEAPDUC, but we both know how that kind of things work *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*. Now can I interested you in a gyrojet-multilauncher-ceramic plated gun ? It is nicely disguised as a plain paper roll but it wont trick such a connoissor "

Posted by: Manunancy May 11 2011, 08:57 AM

It might be doable if you fit the explosive in the back, behind the uranimum core - if it's around it it will be stripped away as the core punches though armor - but the amount will be miserable enough to prevent any serious effect. To add insult to injury (for the firer), such a design will degrade the core's penetration (shorter core = less sectional density* = less penetration). It will also put the explosive right next to the burning powder and expanding gases, so the round will be prone to cookoffs....

All considered, that would be to ammunition what a donk is to automobile...

* sectional density : the projectile's mass divided by it's section. The higher it is, the better it punches thorugh armor (more energy delivered by surface unit of armor at the impact point)

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 11 2011, 10:08 AM

That's because with buckshot, you pretty often eat what you shoot...

And it tends to fly everywhere, which means the collateral might sue you because you gave him/her lead poisoning in addition to a perforated behind.


On Topic:

Seriously, there probably ARE AP+EX rounds out there, right now, at least in development. But they are not DUPs, they are probably just plain old tungsten carbide heads and a delayed charge behind it. But the goal is more like a mini-grenade, which would be WAY more useful ammo: A minigrenade that penetrates barriers and then explodes in a building. There is probably a Future Weapons or similar show about them, too.

I have got to use this for the military scenario I'm running right now.

Posted by: Sengir May 11 2011, 12:30 PM

In order to merely exceed the safety values for long-term radiation exposure, one already needs to accumulate enough Uranium to make something else far more important: Uranium is a heavy metal, and as such toxic. So having DU shrapnel somewhere in the body is not healthy, but it wouldn't be better if it had been a lead round.

Posted by: Draco18s May 11 2011, 02:23 PM

At least he's not looking for them in Discarding Sabot style.

Posted by: Prime Mover May 11 2011, 02:39 PM

I swear I remember a line like this from first or second edition but can't remember were now.

Posted by: Tanegar May 11 2011, 02:44 PM

Street Samurai Catalog, page 63. Hatchetman talks about stealing two clips from the firing range at Ft. Lewis, then laments that he used them both getting out.

Posted by: CanRay May 11 2011, 02:53 PM

Where do you think I got the idea? I may not have played in those days, but I paid attention.

Posted by: Mr. Smileys May 11 2011, 04:28 PM

something along these lines is what i think he is looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Explosive_Incendiary/Armor_Piercing_Ammunition

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 11 2011, 05:40 PM

Which is an awesome round Indeed...

Posted by: hobgoblin May 11 2011, 05:58 PM

Explosive ex-lax, nice...

Sounds like the favorite toy of a certain gonzo journalist...

Posted by: CanRay May 11 2011, 11:13 PM

"Prolapse."

Posted by: Wakshaani May 13 2011, 05:41 PM

To go the other direction, here's one from my game...

Drekky Ammo

"Did you hear about the new body armor Ares is rolling out? It's designed to stop the new APDS rounds, dead!"
"Yeah, but that means that they have the next generation of AP in R&D. They'll drop it out once they've hit the sales targets for the body armor this quarter."
"And then those bullets will be all the rage."
"Ayup. And my old AP just won't cut it anymore."
"Well, at least you'll have some cheap rounds for target practice, omae..."

AP rounds always use cutting-edge technology to try and stay a step ahead of current body armor. Standard rounds used to be AP rounds, but now they tech has moved forward and they don't have quite the oomph that they used to. But what about the older stuff? Bullets made ten years ago have seen three generations of armor come and go, and they can't be asked to keep up with the game. Arms sellers, however, have boxes of the old stuff gathering dust and need to clear it out to make room for new inventory. What do you do with all this drekky ammo? Mark it down and get rid of it, that's what!

Drekky Ammo
Damage Modifier: -
Ap Modifier: +4
Armor Used: Ballistic
Availability: 2
Cost per 10: 5Y

Common as dirt, usually bought in bulk for target practiceor, in more rural communities, for hunting. Handy to keep around for plinking rats or stray dogs, and while they have terrible armor-piercing capability, they're still bullets and work just fine on an unarmored target. They're not even restricted!

Posted by: Draco18s May 13 2011, 05:47 PM

You realize those are actually more expensive than standard ammo, right? Standard is 2Y per 10.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 13 2011, 05:49 PM

Ummmmm... 20 per 10 actually.

Posted by: Draco18s May 13 2011, 06:16 PM

Derp, that's what I get for posting at work.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 13 2011, 06:23 PM

Heh...

Posted by: Faraday May 13 2011, 08:35 PM

I like this. I like it a lot. It's great for ghoul hunting too.

Posted by: CanRay May 13 2011, 08:47 PM

I don't know. Copper is pretty expensive now, it'd be a waste to use them on jacketing bullets, eh?

That's why it's steel jacketed rounds now.

Posted by: Draco18s May 13 2011, 08:52 PM

I think Drekkies are lead slugs, no more, no less.

Posted by: CanRay May 13 2011, 09:02 PM

"WE HIT THE MOTHERLOAD!!!" "What are you talking about? This is a cache of old cased 7.62mm ammo from the US Army. The UNITED STATES Army. It's big, yeah, but the primers and powder have to have denatured by now and..." "Yeah, I know. But think: Brass and Copper." "OH!!! A bit of work, and..." "You got it, cha-ching!"

Posted by: Draco18s May 13 2011, 09:40 PM

Reminds me of a http://www.365tomorrows.com/ where the main character finds the motherload:
A stop sign. So much raw metal!

Posted by: CanRay May 13 2011, 11:55 PM

In one of his "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" stories, Spider Robinson had a time traveler that was offering miracles for pennies.

Literally every penny in the bar. Now, US pennies at the time (And today) are Bronze (They add Zinc to make them last longer at the mint), but that's still some damn fine metals for a depleted future.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 14 2011, 04:59 AM

Heh.

They're just low-quality bullets pushed out a few years back. Good for, say, tossing in some guns that you're selling to a force in the 'Stans.

(Seriously, have you *seen* the bullets they put in those AKs? No wonder they can't hit anything!)

Also note that while they provide +4 armor, the target has to have at least 1 point of armor for that to take effect. If they're completely unarmored, Drekky Ammo hits just like normal ammo. Once someone has something better than armored clothing, these things are about as effective as spitballs.

They wind up being oddly popular for, as noted, hunting critters, Ghouls, or plain ol' target shooting at the range.

Give 'em a spin in your game and see how your players react.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 14 2011, 05:17 AM

I guess I just don't see the point, unless you're playing a special extra-gritty/street-trash campaign. Otherwise, regular ammo is essentially free already.

Posted by: CanRay May 14 2011, 05:19 AM

No. I demand samples. And some good ammo for comparison.

Posted by: TheOOB May 14 2011, 07:24 AM

I don't know, it's very possible for a wired up street samurai to use 40 nuyen worth of regular rounds per initiative pass, that can add up.

Though generally I'd agree, cheap ammo is something that should exist, but it's really not designed for shadow runners. I could see cheapo corp security using it to save a buck.

Posted by: Faraday May 14 2011, 07:55 AM

That'd take using 4 arms or using multiple guns for suppressive fire...

I might note that riggers can realistically use full auto fire, as well as high-velocity assault rifles or even miniguns. Miniguns use 15 rounds every initiative pass they are fired (30 for suppressive fire) and riggers can have up to 5 initiative passes in a combat turn. This adds up to 75-150 rounds a combat round, which is 150-300 for regular ammo. Drekky ammo would lower that to 38-75 .

This would work well on human targets, who tend to run the fuck away from a minigun. The dolts with an invincibility complex would still likely take damage if/when hit, since the gun is flinging out 9 DV/+3 AP shots.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 14 2011, 08:11 AM

Or dumped on their ass from stun.

Posted by: Manunancy May 14 2011, 08:23 AM

I find the +4 armor modifier rather bausive for something that's sopposed to be only some years behind the tech curve - logically the 'crappy' ammo would still be the mainstay in many places - first of them the army's depots. Also compared to other ammo, a +4 in armor-piercing is about n par with the differecen between regula and ex-ex ammo (+2 DV -2 AV grants toughly the same effect).

A difference that big should be only for some reallt old trash, say 30 years old or the like, and intermediate grades should be available, starting with a mere +1 armor modifier up to +4, with a corresponding reduction in price.

Posted by: Draco18s May 14 2011, 03:17 PM

+2 DV, -2 AP is not the "same" as +4 AP. +4 AP is roughly the same as -1.3 DV, so +1 DV -1 AP is "the same."

Posted by: Falconer May 14 2011, 03:23 PM

This was errata'd hard. Ex-Ex is only +1DV, -1AP now. ('Ex' is +1DV).
Otherwise there's almost no reason ever to take APDS over Ex-Ex.

Similarly everything w/ a flechette (f) damage code has a +5AP on it (not the +2 seen in the charts).

Posted by: Wakshaani May 14 2011, 04:23 PM

Well, here's some reading:

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/reading-rifle-magazines/

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/

Both discuss how the Taliban fighters can't hit jack, and about the randomness of the ammo (Some of which is 40 years old!) that they're using.

Sorry I can't produce *actual* bullets for you to try out.

Posted by: Falconer May 14 2011, 04:43 PM

Bullets use a gilding metal (normally a copper alloy, though not necessarily) to jacket them. The alloy has a few purposes. It's ductile enough to fit into the rifling without excessive barrel wear (steel jackets on bullets WILL wear out barrels quickly). Not to leave a layer of itself behind in the barrel which will need cleaned later (fouling - pure lead bullets tend to do this). Also it's rigid enough to keep the bullets shape and balance when fired (high G forces will make soft lead change it's shape).


Wakshaani:

That's a function of two things, one crap ammo. (distorted bullets, inconsistent bullet and powder weights, corrosive primers/propellants..).

The other is that the standard AK is not well maintained and not designed for precision. A gun which can fire with mud and sand all over it's innards is a gun designed with very loose tolerances. Firing corrosive ammo or steel ammo like above also compounds this with a lot of barrel wear... if the barrels shot out... don't expect a lot of precision as the quality of the rifling goes.

Posted by: CanRay May 14 2011, 04:50 PM

*Pouts* I want bullets. Good reads, thank you.

I had been wondering how they went from mountain marksmen with SMLEs to "Can't hit the broadside of a mountain" with an AK.

Posted by: Lantzer May 15 2011, 04:00 PM

It's not like the game doesn't already have such mutually exclusive weapons systems already. I'm referring to the supercavitating torpedo that is priced based on the rating of it's homing electronics. Nevermind the fact that as far as I know, these torpedoes are always dumb-fired because their own operation pretty much makes any kind of guidance and sensors worthless. They are high-speed direct fire weapons.

Posted by: Oracle May 15 2011, 04:22 PM

The German Barracuda, which is still under development, will be a supercavitating guided torpedo. German-language source: http://www.grosswildjagd.de/Highspeed.htm

Posted by: Bira May 15 2011, 08:15 PM

I'd stat "crappy" ammo differently: just like regular ammo, but if you glitch it jams your gun.

If you really want "highly detailed" ammo types, play GURPS .

Posted by: Irion May 15 2011, 09:02 PM

Highly detailed ammo, if your damage varies between 4 and 10. Ranging from not even a pistol to a freaking cannon.
Really?

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 15 2011, 10:59 PM

I still think there is some merit to the idea of "old" ammo. I think +4AP that has been posted is too much, for half price, it's still not worth it. However, just a +2 AP at significantly reduced cost might lead a poor runner or merc to stockpile the stuff.

A +4 AP ammo should rather be almost free.

I do believe, though, that the benefits of playing with greater variations of DV and AP haven't been used well enough - even within this limited system.

There could at least be:

-1DV/-4AP ammo, sort of like cheap APDS, that you could afford to spray more.

+2/+6 ammo might also be worthwhile on the long run - with +6, you're pushing towards very large pools, and buying hits, in which case that ammo wins.

Posted by: Draco18s May 15 2011, 11:16 PM

5 is not half of 20

Posted by: Wakshaani May 16 2011, 12:43 AM

I've played with it a bit at +2 AV, but then it gets far too tempting to grab. Your mileage may vary, of course, and I'd happy to hear feedback from either a +2 or +4 version seeing wider use.

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 02:01 AM

The point is every type of ammunition with strange modification is increasing the strain on the immersion.
I mean every SWAT sharp shooter in Shadowrun would use gel rounds.
(Why: Because they do more damage and the stun monitor is much easier to fill than physical.)

(This is something funny about most RPG if you try to play a moral dilemma but the rules just push you otherwise.)
(I am not talking about some strange rule lawyering but about the real fundation every player plays by)

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 05:22 AM

Erm, Not to quibble, but gel rounds to a lot less damage than a regular round.
-1 DV, +2 AP. That'd turn a ranger arms SM-4 down to 7 DV, -1 AP.

Granted, that's still a good way to knock down someone's stun track, but why not use flechette for that?

Posted by: CanRay May 16 2011, 05:30 AM

Better PR for using "Low Lethality Rounds"?

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 05:51 AM

That'd be called Stick-n-Shock.

Posted by: CanRay May 16 2011, 06:14 AM

With the added advantage of watching the target do the "Kickin' Chicken"!

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 16 2011, 09:58 AM

Hmmm.... it seems the problem lies in the fact that there is no "situationally useful", because most of what you do always ends up strictly BETTER or WORSE.

IRL where there are far more attributes to factor in - recoil, aerodynamics, penetration, range, etc. there is undoubtedly a greater diversity. In the game, it would be nice if at least we got to a point where a choice makes sense. Only in WAR is there any ammo that gives a larger "recoil" mod.

For instance: Generally against soft targets a +DV is always desirable, because the AP hardly matters - stun track is usually shorter, anyway. So basically even with +1/-1 Ex-Ex is the best ammo against soft targets (for cost reasons). (+1.333 DV effective, exactly the same as APDS in most situations). Flechette comes second, with +0.333 DV, with the advantage that you probably will fill the stun track more reliably. (Theoretically a hit too many on the attack roll with XX could mean your guy is still standing because now both his stun and physical track are missine one box to knock him out.) Since Gel was errataed, apparently, it doesn't compete anymore, it clearly used to be the best ammo. Although I can't find the -1DV that was mentioned, earlier, it seems to be just +2 AP (S).

It's against hardened armour (ITNW) and vehicles when you need -AP, because only that enables you to actually hurt the buggers. So... APDS is still king, here. I repeat my desire for a cheaper AP round, like for instance the 4.7 or 5.7 rounds from HK / FN respectively. A -1/-3 or even a simple -2 AP would be nice at lower cost, so you could more easily afford to go Full-auto wide burst on spirits. As it is, at some point assault rifles just bite on granite against spirits. An F5 is touchy, an F6 very hard, and an F7 basically invulnerable. Then again, a -2AP round is numerically identical to Ex-Ex against spirits for actually hurting it, and then slightly inferior when applying damage. And a -1/-3 round is again the same, but even worse when applying damage.

But look at the cost:

APDS is actually fairly cheap, it's just that stupid 16F that makes it expensive.
Ex-Ex and Flechette are actually fairly expensive, but Flechettes can be bought at every street corner.
Ex ammo is actually the most cost-effective ammo, because it's almost as good as Ex-Ex against everything but spirits.

Enter Arsenal:
Frangible are TOTALLY useless.
Hollow-Point are numerically identical to Flechette, but cheaper and target B armour. Hmmm.
Shock-Lock are identical to Ex.

So, really, diversion seems pretty impossible with the system. No matter what you do, you arrive at the same numbers as long as damage and penetration are basically the same thing. There are some mild situational differences, but basically it boils down to:

Use Ex all the time from a small auto-gun, because they are cheap. (And you should have a spirit with Guard up at all times, anyway.) Ex-Ex from all single-shot weapons, because you can afford it. And big auto-weapons best use standard, unless you are up against spirits.

And that's basically it, there is no more diversion. The only thing I would consider using in addition is a cheap AP round

+0/-2, 50nY, 12R or so.

Or the aforementioned crap ammo for 5-10nY from a vehicle mounted spray and pray gun.

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 11:02 AM

Ah right, this was changed I guess. The old basic book says +2DV/+2AP. Thats what I was looking at.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm

Thats what me go thinking about just using the house rule, that physical damage does inflict half of his amount as stun damage.
For example: You get shot at for 7P. You roll your body of 3 and you armor of 6 and reduce it to 4P. This means you take 4P and 2S.

Posted by: Draco18s May 16 2011, 02:13 PM

Combat would end up so deadly that the party would avoid it at all costs.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 03:12 PM

It is already deadly enough that I tend to avoid it unless absolutely necessary. That would put the nail in the coffin, so to speak.

Posted by: Draco18s May 16 2011, 03:59 PM

Well yeah. It is already fairly deadly. Doesn't stop a lot of people though.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 04:17 PM

Don't I know it...

Posted by: Draco18s May 16 2011, 05:01 PM

See, I like playing the game where combat happens on a frequent basis--because I enjoy a good firefight--but I don't try to get into combat, nor do I play combat monsters (combat capable, usually).

I play combat smart. I use cover, I dodge, I conserve ammo. And most importantly: the cocky, regenerating vampire melee adept goes in first (I'd rather have a shotgun to his chest than to mine*).

*This actually happened. I was taking cover behind a bar and the vampire ran strait up to a guy and got blasted in the chest (pretty much downing him for the fight) without doing anything effective. I only got 1 kill that fight, compared to the sam's 4, but I didn't take a single box of physical.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 05:12 PM

Seems like you and I have similar play styles for combat... Having had it drilled into me in the Corps, it is really second nature for me in the game.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 16 2011, 05:32 PM

I played a Jaguar shapeshifter Adept that did exactly that. Being downed twice by some combat drones armed with LMG, but every time the regeneration saved me (except once when an enemy runner shot me with a shotgun and I got a critical glitch on the BOD to resist the damage.

Posted by: Draco18s May 16 2011, 06:26 PM

And that is why I use cover.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 16 2011, 08:00 PM

You can't use cover when your whole mode of attack is running against someone and jump with fangs and claws aiming to their skull .
I do use cover when I can't reach the target in single sprint, it just happens this particular runner had delayed its action to shoot the jaguar as soon as it leaves cover...

Posted by: Draco18s May 16 2011, 08:19 PM

And that is why I use guns. Or spells, but mostly guns.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 08:36 PM

Indeed... Melee is only used as a last resort.

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 09:01 PM

Unarmed attacks are the most discrete and reliable way of carrying around damage available in shadowrun. Muscle augmentation and bone density augmentation never show up on cyber scanners, and are hard to spot astrally. Tack on some martial arts, and you can easily get 8-9P base DV. I won't even go on about adept powers...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 09:13 PM

Agreed, it is just far more inferior to a Firearm in most cases.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 16 2011, 09:32 PM

The only problem is the time it takes for you to be from ranged to melee.
Being a jaguar shapeshifter that means the difference is negiligible most of the time. My only problem is that I rely mostly on Dodge with combat sense than armor.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 10:10 PM

As a Shapeshifter, you are indeed fast, so closing distances should require negligible time. Nothing wrong with relying upon Dodge/Combat Sense, as I am sure it is rather difficult to obtain decent levels of Armor in your Cat Form. Regeneration does not hurt, either.

Posted by: Faraday May 17 2011, 07:24 AM

Which is why I rely on firearms for general situations and use unarmed for more discrete *close quarters* situations.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 01:18 PM

The only way to fly.
If you are caught in a melee situation and you cannot melee, well, it will generally be a short fight.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 02:27 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Depends on how you interpretate the rules...
(Since you would have gymnastic or dodge anyway)

If you have a GM who likes realism you should not try to use a gun in a knife fight.


Untill you run into a ward....miau no kitty door there.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 17 2011, 03:00 PM

The melee dodging being far too easy is one point - abundantly discussed. But it's also pretty easy to do the SR equivalent of a five-foot-step and then blast from point-blank. Unless you can bind people in melee, you better kill or maim them on your first attack.

Of course, getting people to full-dodge is already half the victory - because you've hurt them, and still taken away their action. You just need to hit hard enough to reliably make them do that. The cost of getting there... I'm not so sure it's worthwhile in melee.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 03:07 PM

@Brainpiercing7.62mm
It all depends on. I see no reason not to allow a parade against a range attack in melee. You will not try to dodge to bullet you will try to hit the weapon before it is pointed at you...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 03:09 PM

If you are involved in a Melee and you cannot melee, then all you can do is run. This usually ends poorly for the guy trying to run.

As for the Gun and Knife fight scenario you presented above. If they are seperated, and the gun is readied, then it is a gun fight and not a knife fight. If they are enclosed together, then it is a Knife fight, and not a gun fight. Circumstance matters here.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 03:13 PM

Yeah, thats what I said. If you are in a knife fight, you should not try to draw a gun...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 03:15 PM

Of course, if you cannot fight, why are you in that knife fight? Why are you not trying to run away?
The point would be to extend, so as to get out of that knife fight, so you can draw your gun, so it becomes a gun fight. *shrug* heh...

Posted by: CanRay May 17 2011, 10:28 PM

Trying to remember my Sun Tzu about this very thing... Damn losing that book and my piss poor memory.

Something along the lines of: "The warrior cannot make himself invulnerable and cannot make his opponent vulnerable" or some such.