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Posted by: Dez384 May 12 2011, 04:05 AM

So, I'll be running a campaign in the fall and am unsure on how much to pay for a job.

Any advice on a scale to determine how much to pay a team of shadowrunners?

Posted by: TheOOB May 12 2011, 04:12 AM

Depends on the style of campaign you are running. Assuming your using shadowrunners, as skilled professionals, and not street level crooks, you should, over the long run, give about 2-2.5k nuyen per karma you award. This doesn't have to be every run, but over time, though keep in mind that shadowrunners usually won't get out of bed for less than 5k, and won'y get into serious danger for less than 10k.

Regardless of what you pay, remember to base it on Karma, because thats how you keep your party balanced. If you give too much karma and not enough cash, your awakened characters will start to dominate(as they need lots of karma, but get little benefit from cash when compared to other characters).

Posted by: CanRay May 12 2011, 04:13 AM

UCAS$1000 and a gift certificate for 500 worth of product at Stuffer Shack.

What? The criminal scum aren't worth any more than that!

Details would be helpful.

Posted by: Halflife May 12 2011, 04:17 AM

Really Canray your price quotes have come up since 2010

Posted by: Halflife May 12 2011, 04:19 AM

Amusingly this is the first example question on "Searching the Dumpshock Forums"


http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34331

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32096

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32282

Posted by: Mr. Hollis May 12 2011, 04:21 AM

Odd - I read both of those lines as the same thing. Admittedly, the nuyen value of the gift certificate has gone up.

I've run things a bit loose with pay, but generally, if there is any serious danger of group members getting geeked [say, when paid to hunt down a hitman who took out a similar group to the PC's], then I run a six-figure minimum at the group level. Usually breaks down to 20-25k each in good ol' Nuyen.

Posted by: Dez384 May 12 2011, 04:23 AM

The campaign would be a fairly Pink Mohawk game set in the Caribbean League. The players include 2 powergamers, 1 self-limiting powergamer, and 3 casual players looking for a good time.

Posted by: Halflife May 12 2011, 04:28 AM

I love that my description is "Self-Limiting Powergamer"

Posted by: Dez384 May 12 2011, 04:34 AM

Hadn't seen that document, but my search for "regular payments" didn't return the same topics that yours did.


You only powergame at plot centric moments.

Posted by: Halflife May 12 2011, 04:37 AM

Always have an ace in the hole...

Posted by: longbowrocks May 12 2011, 04:45 AM

Just get them each a pony. But don't get crazy.

Posted by: Epicedion May 12 2011, 05:15 AM

It depends on the size of the group.

For my group of 3, I usually offer them between 15k and 30k, depending on the difficulty of the run, and then let the negotiator take a crack at Mr. Johnson for 5-10% per net hit on top of that. About 10k per runner for a combat-heavy run is about right.

Then, I usually give them options to make more (paydata or other expensive goods to fence) or less (expensive equipment not provided by Mr. Johnson that they have to acquire) depending on exactly how hurting for cash they are.

Also, incidents can cause PCs to have to spend extra money on replacement gear. For example, in a recent run, one of my PCs lost his Ares Alpha, spare assault rifle ammo, and grenades, because they made a major misstep and got their van blown up by a crazy dwarf with a rocket launcher. He later dropped 6k on the full HK modular package, because of that.

But then, on that run the team picked up an extra 50k worth of certified credstick because that same crazy dwarf with the rocket launcher murdered their smuggler contact, and they didn't have to pay (an option was to appease the dwarf with the smuggler's payment). They lost a stolen van and some expensive weaponry/ammo, and gained a whole lot of extra pain, but picked up a major payday for their trouble.

TL;DR -- just keep an eye on the team's cash reserves. When they're low, give them meager pay with major chances to earn big. When they're high, give them reasonable to high pay, with major chances to lose big. And then mix it up occasionally to keep them guessing about how hard things are really going to be.

Posted by: Irion May 12 2011, 08:07 AM

Depends on the run:
Stealing a high price (about several millions) piece of art might easy give you 100.000 to 500.000 for the run.

Firebombing something might give you a bullet to the head.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 12 2011, 10:38 AM

There's a few tables floating around in old books, but those have always been controversial. You have to make up your own mind, but here are some things to consider:



Campaign Style
In a Barrens/Street game, rewards shouldn't be too high. Otherwise it takes just a few jobs to move into a nicer standard of living. Johnsons view the PCs as dispensable; there's more where they came from. The game will be gritty, the threat of starvation is always there. Conserving ammo and looting enemies' weapons is normal.

In a Prime Runner/high roller game, big payouts are more the norm. The team tends to have pricey lifestyles, and lots of expenses, such as replacing several drones after a run. The PCs will be highly skilled, and not easy to replace for a Johnson. Paying a retainer to the PCs just to get some vestigial loyalty isn't out of the question. Looting is unusual; compared to the mission payout, stealing the guns of normal guards looks absurd. Of course, if they happen to find some random lightweight valuables, they might still pick them up, but looting doesn't happen much.

If you had to hire someone to shoot down a drug dealer in the Barrens, 5K doesn't sound outlandish. Some punk with a gun can do it. If you want the UCAS President shot down, the payout will have to be higher; a desperate man might do it for 100K, but even that's a bit low.

Say to yourself: "I'm Mr. Johnson, and I want you people to do $CRIME with absolute secrecy. I think $AMOUNT would be a reasonable compensation." Does it sound plausible?


Risk vs. Reward
The payout should measure up to the expected risks and difficulties. It should be more profitable than easy, less risky forms of crime like mugging or carjacking. (Carjacking has complications too, but not usually Red Samurai level complications.)

A milk run doesn't have to pay much. If the runners aren't interested, Johnson can get another team easily enough. Milk runs are a buyer's market.

Difficult runs on the other hand - there may not be many teams that can do a certain job. A seller's market, and the runners can make more demands.

A run with a high chance of meeting deadly opposition should pay accordingly. Even for desperate, SINless shadowrunners there are better options than suicide for pennies. Like mugging.



Worth to Johnson
Why does Johnson want the run? What profit does the company make if it succeeds? What are the risks if it goes wrong (public!)? What is the Return On Investment?

Suppose a successful run would get the Company profits of 1 million, a failure fines of 2 million, and not trying anything does nothing either way.

Now suppose Team A has a 80% chance of success. They want 50K to do it. The company's expectations would be:
0.8 * 1M = 800K (success chance times success gains)
0.2 * -2M = -400K (failure chance times failure price)
Result = 200K
ROI: 200K / 50K = 400%
Net Profits: 200K - 50K = 150K

Team B has a 95% chance of success, but wants 200K to do it. The Company thinks:
0.95 * 1M = 950K
0.05 * -2M = 100K
Result = 850K
ROI 850K / 200K = 425%
Net Profits: 850K - 200K = 650K

Johnson is here (probably!) to make profit. As you see, Team B makes much more profit despite being more expensive, so it makes sense to choose them. As a team, it's extremely important to look competent, you can ask a much higher fee for your work.

Of course, you can replace Team by Plan; if the PCs have to sacrifice expensive drones in Plan B, to get that extra 15% chance of success, they can argue about that with Johnson. (Better have a good Negotiator.)

There's been a lot of discussions along the lines of "Johnson is greedy and wants to pay at little as necessary". Sure, but I think that his overriding concern is to make sure the mission succeeds, because most of his profits depend on the success/failure of the mission.



Expenses vs. Progress
Some part of the money has to go towards replacing damaged stuff - drones can become very expensive. It's not unreasonable for the team to agree that part of all the payout is reserved for Repair & Replacement, and that therefore a bigger share of the payout goes to the rigger than to the mage (who doesn't hemorrhage money when he goes on a mission).

Besides keeping the status quo, all the PCs need to get some progress; otherwise players become frustrated. Augmentation costs accelerate quickly once you move beyond Standard grade into Alpha+. A street sam or rigger without money to buy new toys stagnates, and that's little fun to play.



Effect on the Players
When you pay more, what do the players do with the money? If they go on a roleplaying spree, spending it on expensive joygirls and gambling, then being generous with the payout is safe-ish; it doesn't impact the power level all that much.

On the other hand, if the players are always crunching numbers, trying to squeeze out the money for new superpowered equipment as quickly as possible, you need to be more careful with the money.

Watch the players' reactions. Ideally, the size of a payout makes them greedy enough to attempt a mission they aren't entirely certain they can handle. Enough money that they feel they got out of bed for a good reason, but enough that they still want more afterwards.



Putting it into practice
Yeah, now it gets tricky. How high to start? I guess it's better to start out on the lower side; it's easier to increase payments if it turns out to be too little. But if you started too high, it's hard to lower the rate for the next job.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 12 2011, 10:48 AM

Three more things to consider:

Payout vs. Loot
It's silly if the loot is usually more profitable than the payout. Make sure the payout is bigger than the loot, unless there's some special situation.



Loyalty Incentive
So the PCs have stolen $GIMMICK. That thing is worth millions, and the PCs know it. Why wouldn't they sell it to someone else for more?
A) They're being paid enough for it
B) They have a reputation to protect; this isn't retirement money yet, and if they betray Johnson, it'll be bad for the chance at further jobs.
C) Johnson has a stick as well as a carrot.



Retirement Money
Why are the PCs running? What is the PCs' motivation?

One cyberpunk/SR cliche is that the PCs are SINless, need income badly just to stay alive, and hope to eventually retire with enough money to buy a SIN, Permanent Luxury Lifestyle and a private island. In that case, does it make sense to buy deltaware? That money goes a long way towards buying your retirement.

Of course, PCs aren't the same as characters in a novel. Their "IC" motivation is often that the player wants more toys to take on an adventure. This is a weird roleplaying thing.

Some characters aren't in it for the money; they want Revenge For A Lost Loved One, or perhaps Fight Against Corporate Injustice in some convoluted way. In that case, money isn't always the prime motivation for a run, and the profit can be lower if some other motivation is justified.

Posted by: nezumi May 12 2011, 01:20 PM

Also realize this varies by edition and PC experience level. In 3rd, a run (which normally takes 1-2 gaming sessions) would earn $5k to $30k per character for low to moderate experience levels, and $15-$100k for higher levels. Lower payouts are due to charity, unexected interference, easy runs, low-value runs, runs with significant resources provided, or looting opportunities. Higher payouts are due to difficult or high-value jobs, limited time and resources, or payment via barter (such as cyberware for a quarter of its street cost).

Posted by: James McMurray May 12 2011, 02:38 PM

I use the pay scale from Missions. ((3,000¥ + (2,000¥ * TR)) * (Number of PCs)

TR = "Table Rating" or "Tier Rating" and is based on the average karma in the group. The chart is in all of the downloadable missions adventures and also http://shadowrun.colugo.org/run_guidelines.html. If the run is particulary dangerous I up the reward. If it's easier than normal it goes down. On average there's one run per month.

So far it's kept the more financially oriented hungry while giving the adept money to blow on whatever he feels like buying that day. The PC who's deep In Debt to Mitsuhama has even gone so far as to take a Day Job to try and keep up her payments, and everyone is on the lookout for the extra tidbits in a job that will net them some more cash.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 12 2011, 04:18 PM

The oldest (And most incindiary!) question in Shadowrun, I do believe.

The blanket answer if, of course, "It depends."

Running a jet-setting game where your team taunts Lofwyr (again), hobnobs with Damien Knight, and keeps Harlequin on speed dial, ten grand is an insult.

Running a low-end game where your team struggles to pay rent, considers a fresh pack of smokes a luxury, and has to rely on second-hand cyberwear, well, ten grand is a windfall.

For me, the rule of thumb is this:

If the runners engage in one run a month, it should pay enough to cover their lifestyle and basic operating expenses (Ammo, some bribes, but not new gear) ... About one in three give a windfall of extra cash, to allow "power ups" of new gear, upgrading the team van, maybe a nice new program or a down payment on a ner bit of cyber, etc.

If they engage in weekly missions, the reward should be cut roughly in quarter.

If they only do a mission every three months, teh reward should be triple.

Toss in a few 'Pro bono' missions now and then, where the team goes to help out a contact or where the Johnson has screwed them over, that give a bit of extra karma to replace the msising cash, knowing that the eventual windfall missions will even it out.

Three last bits on pay.

First, the Johnson should be awarding a set fee for the job... let the runners figure out how to split it up. A Johnson that says "X nuyen per person" is gonna be a might upset when the crew expands to fifty when cousins, aunts, uncles, etc get called up. Let the team figure out if everyone should get paid the same, if there should be a bonus system, if the 'talent' mage gets more than the 'common' gunbunny, etc.

Second, half up front, half on the backend is normal for advanced runners but low end ones should expect 25-75, 10-90, or even "Nothing until it's done".

Third, don't forget about other runner teams! If your group has been snotty to Mr Johnson too many times, feel free to bring in a few other runner teams who are either more professional or who charge less and who start snapping up jobs. The runner team goes in, negotiates with Mr J, is asked to step outside, then sees anothe rteam outside smoking and chatting about the job, then a THIRD team goes in behind them and gets interviewed while the other two teams talk. Mr Johnson picks one of teh other guys, leaving your group to stew in unemployment. Drop one or two of these on their head and they'll be acting a *lot* better at jobinter views from then on.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 12 2011, 04:40 PM

You can model the shadowrun economy and come up with as complex an econometric model as you like.

Or you can pay them more then they need, but less then they want.

Don't know what they need or want? Talk to your players, they have the answers. Not dumpshock.

And rewards are more then nuyen, it may be karma, it may be screen time, it may be in game favors and connections. It's as complex as the world you play in. But in the end it's about fun.

Posted by: Loch May 12 2011, 05:10 PM

I don't exactly see how that's relevant to compensation for runs. A powergamer worthy of the name shouldn't worry about getting paid enough money to buy gear, as they'll already have close to the best gear they can get (unless you WANT players to have milspec gear). Whether your group is hard and spiky or soft and fuzzy doesn't really have any bearing on how much you want to pay the characters, unless you have a personal vendetta against one or the other group.

I also take umbrage at being called a "casual player"

Posted by: Halflife May 12 2011, 05:32 PM

I disagree that group makeup isn't relevant, mostly for the reasons Ascalaphus mentioned

Posted by: Dez384 May 12 2011, 05:33 PM

The group composition can affect how much I need to worry about giving out too much cash. 3 Players will spend their cash on hookers and blow, 2 will pinch every penny to get the biggest toys, and the 6th with buy seemingly innocuous pieces of equipment to Macguyver some "ace in the hole" with which to slap me across the face at a proper moment.

Posted by: nezumi May 12 2011, 05:54 PM

I do sometimes see GMs make money scarce to encourage the feeling of desperation. Unfortunately, it hurts some archetypes a lot more than others, and encourages a lot of not shadowrunny behavior, like scavening parts. Instead of that, I try to pay in goods, to make sure the rigger and street sam can stay competitive with the mages, provide reasonably high paychecks, but then enforce the optional monthly booze, whores and child support costs.

Providing gear like this also helps to control the power levels. You can decide what gear is available for what character, to make sure your power gamers don't sell your kids to the bunraku parlor and manage to blow it all on enhanced articulation before his crippling heroin habit catches up to his fat wallet.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 12 2011, 06:53 PM

Players 1, 2, & 3 should get a small amount of Karma for better roleplaying. Players 4 & 5 should get nothing. Player 6... player 6 should also get a Karma bonus because of his crazy MacGuyver plans. If nothing else, the comedy value.

Posted by: Loch May 12 2011, 08:07 PM

You're not seriously suggesting that the GM should award more/less Karma to a character based on what the player is like, are you? It's not as though so-called "powergamers" are incapable of good roleplay or storytelling. Punishing a character for a player's own approach to the game just reeks of metagaming to me, and I don't think it's fair to encourage that kind of behavior, on either side of the screen.

Posted by: Dez384 May 12 2011, 08:57 PM

Loch is right; powergamers can RP. Powergamers just differ from casuals in the way they approach the game, not how they play it.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 12 2011, 10:39 PM

Then cut that approximately in half and let the groups face negotiate up to that amount, maybe 10-20% more if they roll well or have a decent argument why he shouldn't go with someone cheaper. Mr. J always tries to low ball you.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 12 2011, 10:44 PM

In some cases though (see the Firefly episode Ariel for a good example) the loot could be the pay out. "I want you to steal <Mc Guffin>. I don't have a lot to offer you myself but they do have a pallet of <new upgraded version of something the company produces> ready to ship, I'm sure you could fence a couple boxes for a reasonable sum."

Posted by: PoliteMan May 13 2011, 02:14 AM

Not Karma, Contacts!

"Oh man, we got so trashed last night. Those Yakuza hitmen sure can drink."

Posted by: CanRay May 13 2011, 02:20 AM

*Bring* "Hey, Drekface-san! We go drinking tonight! Many ladies waiting for men like us!"

Posted by: longbowrocks May 13 2011, 03:26 AM

Wouldn't that then be unreasonable pay since it's 1/2 the reasonable pay? The shaowrunners may have to get a bit "unreasonable" in kind.

Posted by: kzt May 13 2011, 06:30 AM

Some amount of reward in things other than cash or negotiable assets might be what the player or character wants. Particularly true if they are not white hatted pink mohawkers. Depending on what exactly they want and how the rest of the group feels things might get a bit squicky. ...

Posted by: Epicedion May 13 2011, 07:00 AM

A box of single-shot rocket launchers, or an extra dozen kilos of plastic explosive always makes for a nice parting gift. No one should ever turn down a nice batch of F-rated gear.

Posted by: TheOOB May 13 2011, 08:23 AM

Those numbers are kinda low, the missions numbers were originally made before SR4A (more karma per run necessitates more nuyen per run.) If you only ever pay 5-10k every run, the awakened characters are going to get too powerful real quick like. You need to mix those missions in with big payout missions (maybe 3 runs at 5k each, then a big 50k each run).

Posted by: nezumi May 13 2011, 02:41 PM

You could also just say outright, 'hey, you guys are experienced, these guys are less intense. I'm going to try to give them more points to play with, to keep the game competitive and fun. But I'll make sure you guys get some cool toys too.' All the players are, hopefully, mature adults and can understand the ultimate goal of 'everyone has fun'.

Posted by: Loch May 13 2011, 02:54 PM

Perhaps it's just me being obtuse, but I don't see how somebody being new to SR warrants them getting additional rewards. Maybe fudging a die roll behind the screen in their favor, sure, but SR shouldn't be about handicapping players who are quicker on the uptake.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 13 2011, 03:22 PM

There's a concern when some players use all their money to increase their characters' powers, while other players spend it on "roleplaying" and "fluff" that gives no clear mechanical benefit.

For some reason, a lot of PCs are dedicated ascetics, foregoing luxury and pleasant life to buy better guns.

Posted by: Loch May 13 2011, 03:37 PM

I suspect that's not the case for our group, but then we haven't actually played all in the same room yet.

In a situation like that I'd probably be quicker to use the Conan Rule than to just distribute Karma in a biased fashion. Basically, each character has a limit on how much of their wealth they can spend on purchasing new equipment/spells/programs and MUST spend the rest on lifestyle, food and drink, comforts, etc. The actual Conan RPG required players to spend 85% of their earned wealth on "wine, food and companionship", because, after all, what kind of hero would trade all that shiny treasure for a horse?

It's a rule that I think actually fits into shadowrun really well. What do crims do immediately after they pull off the big heist? Do they use their newfound dubloons to rent out a penthouse apartment, with a multistory car park full of Italian and German automobiles and a bedroom full of Brazilian and Swedish models, or do they buy more bullets and patch up their flak jacket?

Posted by: CanRay May 13 2011, 03:40 PM

I liked that rule in Conan. So did a lot of the players that I introduced it to.

And a fellow that worked on the Conan Comic Book. He was very upset about it, due to all the "Furry Diapers" he's had to do, but liked a lot of the game.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 13 2011, 05:08 PM

Furry diaper? I don't get it.

Anyway, yeah, I like that idea about the Conan Rule. Although I suspect some people would be upset about it.

Posted by: Loch May 13 2011, 05:43 PM

Well you don't have to set the percentage so steep if people have concerns with it. I think the intent of the rule is to create more organic characters, rather than have everyone be a stone-faced meticulous assassin who lives in a spartan apartment and spends his entire paycheck on gear instead of on his hobbies, passions, and interests.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 13 2011, 06:30 PM

Yeah.. it would split pay into "crunchy money" and "fluffy money" - I'd be fine with it if they used their fluffy money to finance their sister's college instead of blowing it on hookers, as long as it's not spent for character power advancement.

Posted by: Bira May 13 2011, 07:29 PM

This might go against conventional wisdom, but I think you should pay lots. If your PCs are shadowrunning for money, they should not only go after the big score, they should get it. "Pay then just enough to cover their monthly lifestyle costs with a tiny bit left over" is terrible advice, IMHO, even though it's actually been printed in official books. It turns shadowrunners into, well, wageslaves. Didn't most of them go into the shadows to escape that kind of life in the first place?

The "iconic" Shadowrun adventure involves breaking into a highly secure facility to conduct high-level industrial espionage, facing lethal security measures which the runners will probably have to shoot on their way out. If they go on one of these, give them lots and lots of money for it. Enough to cover their lifestyles for a year, and to replace all their current gear twice over. And, once money is out of the way, you can have a series of adventures that aren't about money - those tend to be the most fun.

Take the Leverage TV show, for example. The protagonists get enough money to never have to worry about it again by the end of the very first episode. The rest of the series is all about helping the helpless (hooding, in SR terms) and working out their personal issues.

Posted by: Manunancy May 13 2011, 07:40 PM

In that sort of comics many barbarian or primitive characters are drawed wearing some sort of fur loinclothes that looks a bit like diapers. Hence the 'furry diapers'. Not diapers for furries... (pass the brain bleach please...)

Posted by: Manunancy May 13 2011, 07:40 PM

double post

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 13 2011, 08:16 PM

Just had to go there didn'y you? No amount of brain bleach will cleanse that image...

Posted by: CanRay May 13 2011, 09:00 PM

While it's never come up, I've had ideas for payment in (Slightly used) vehicles, food, a duffel bag full of counterfeit UCAS$1000 bills, kegs of German Lager, a vintage Ares Predator made in the PCC, a large supply of gift certificates for Stuffer Shack, a 40-foot trailer of supplies for Starkaf (Repainted so that it's just a generic white trailer now), a bolt hole in a "U-Store-Ur-Self", and naked pictures of Orxanne.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 13 2011, 09:18 PM

This is called irony . And it happens a lot. Now, mind you, that doing a single run per month that pays around 8k, means you can live in a medium lifestyle working less than a week per month and still have some change. That's more than any wageslave could ever think of.
Attitude really has some good insights about why shadowrunners run the shadows and how they treat the money they earn.

Posted by: CanRay May 13 2011, 11:53 PM

It's also why Shadowrunners are always looking for that "One Big Score" that will put them on top or let them get out of the game.

Also, it keeps the game interesting.

Posted by: TheOOB May 14 2011, 03:33 AM

If the runners aren't profiting, they aren't runners, they common thugs. What professional criminal mercenaries are going to accept a job that only pays for a crappy apartment and a few bullets?

Posted by: longbowrocks May 14 2011, 03:50 AM

Wouldn't characters on this kind of stipend only have about 10 BP to spend on gear? 8k per session sounds ok as long as no significant portion goes into lifestyle. If I made a net profit of less than 5k per run, I would immediately resort to mugging rich people for all they're worth.
High pay is a nice way to keep your more powerful runners on a tether. Otherwise they may realize that they can make more through undirected violence (assuming you're using the enemies suggested by the book).

Posted by: TheOOB May 14 2011, 03:53 AM

I know I wouldn't go onto even A level turf without at least 5 figures.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 14 2011, 03:55 AM

Our gm seems to be more oriented towards strong start with low growth. He's getting better about the karma though.
*I would like a 5 figure pay though.

Posted by: TheOOB May 14 2011, 04:02 AM

4 figure pay is delivering a package across town, or standing guard at a low level mob meeting, the kinds of jobs where Johnson wants to be able to say he has runners doing it, but doesn't actually want to pay runners to do what they do.

You have to remember when hiring runners to do a corp run, your not just hiring them to steal something(or someone), you are hiring them to:

* Do legwork on Johnson before the meet(possibly having to grease palms to get info)
* Risk going out in public to meet Johnson
* Do legwork on the run(palm grease also needed)
* Gather any special(and illegal) equiptment they'll need, up to and including false SINs
* Actually do the job(while not causing an excessive ruckess that will bring heat down on Johnson)
* Get the target back to Johnson before corp security tries to get it back
* Risk going out in public to meet Johnson AGAIN
* Replace ammo, devices, and SINs that got fragged
* Lay low for a week(or more) while the heat dies down

You're not hiring a random ganger, you're hiring professionals.

Posted by: CanRay May 14 2011, 04:10 AM

One that has no other choice?

Let's face it, Shadowrunners don't do what they do for kicks.

...

OK, some do, but they're not really the reliable or stable ones, are they? ... Comparatively.

Posted by: PoliteMan May 14 2011, 04:29 AM

Realistically, it should be rare to get one of those archtypical corp run jobs. There can't be a lot of them most of the time (stealing that new biodrone means waiting 9-10 minimum while they invent the thing) and in most cities there are gonna be a lot of established teams with reps who will get first crack at the jobs. For most teams, that means there just aren't a lot of big job to do and a lot of people in front of them in line.

And it has nothing to do with skills, it has everything to do with rep. And no matter how nasty you maybe, until a couple missions in you don't have the rep to even be considered for an AA or higher run.

And yes, shadowrunners can go jack cars instead and honestly, when you start, you'll probably make more money. However, no one will hire carjackers for professional runs on corps, or even for any sensitive run. And if you're not running, or you're running crap jobs, then you're not building your rep or making the contacts that will one day get you those big jobs.

Posted by: CanRay May 14 2011, 05:07 AM

I touch on that with the history of http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=34790&view=findpost&p=1062649.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 14 2011, 05:11 AM

Well, you also have to ...

Hrm.

Have you ever read an article called "Why do must drug pushers live with their parents?" It goes into the economics for crime. Now, it's dealing with a street gang, but, it can be used as an extrapolation into the criminal world as a whole.

In the gang, you have a few levels ... there're the wannabes, the 'soldiers', the 'sergeants', the 'lieutenants', and the boss.

The boss makes a ton of cash. He makes around $120,000 a year, on par with the manager of a retail store, like a WalMart.

The lieutenants (There's 2-5 of 'em) make decent cash, around $40,000 a year, on par with a salary comperable to middle management. Tax free, mind you, but also with a very real risk of death or being arrested.

The sergeants get about $20,000 a year if they're lucky. They want to move up, but, can't unless someone above gets taken down. These guys usually have a job of some kind on the side to try and pay for bills.

The basic soldiers, what you think of as gangers, are lucky to make $10,000 a year, but usually make less. They can make better money flipping burgers, but, they're in it for the chance, however remote, of making their own gang and living teh high life. It's like being a baseball player in A-level play. You spend a lot of time on your hobby, but it doesn't really pay the bills.

Lastly, there are the wannabes, who pay money to the gang for the right to hang out with them and be on "the list", where they can join the gang if something happens. That's right, much like joining a karate school means you have to buy the uniform from them, so to does *trying* to join a gang set you back, often with a monthly fee.

It goes on from there, but, short form is that one responsibility of the top levels of a gang is to live it up, flashing cash and living large, to seduce more people to join the gang, thinking that they'll be living that life, not the sucky life where you live with mom and always owe people money, which is what most of them wind up in. It's like being a pro wrestler in a high school gym, or playing football in the Europe league, hoping to get into the NFL some day.

Shadowrunning is similar, a pyramid with wannabe runners at the bottom, a huge swath of rookies, and an ever-shrinking stack of better and better runners, until you get to the Prime RUnners at the very top. Everyone wants to be Fastjack, but most wind up, well ... not.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 14 2011, 05:22 AM

As for crime, I used to have a list for what kind of reward there was for most crimes. Fencing goods you stole, for example, would usually net 5% of the item's worth. A car worth $10,000 would net you about $500, for example, while a Playstation2 (About $200 at the time) would snag you $10-20. Hitmen would work for $2000 or less ($1000 is the 'common level, but some would go much lower), arsonists would usually run a couple hundred bucks, and so on.

Now, Shadowrunners are often doing more than this, but, the payoff is generally not all that much. Heck, counterfitters get paid 3% of what they produce! Crime is, by and large, a terribly low-paying field. The advantages are that you can do it when you're unhirable (For example, you have a long criminal record) and that you are your own boss. Joining a syndicate can have better rewards, but also comes with greater chance of violent death and, of course, a loss of freedom.

The criminals who can demand a million bucks are ... really, really rare.

It really does pay for crap, but there're a handful of high rollers who were giants (Capone, etc) that tend to influence people into thinking that the reward is much higher than it actually is. THOSE guys are basically CEOs of Crime Incorporated and, well, you can see how many CEOs there are versus how many register jockies and burger flippers. You don't go work at McDOnalds because you love the fries, you go there to make some money and, if you stick with it, get promoted. Sucks to be scrubbing the toilet, but you might make shift manager in a year and a half, maybe move higher teh year after that ... who knows? Five, six years down teh road, you could be running your own franchise! SO you suck it up and work hard today.

Crime? Same thing, different boss. Pay is for crap, but you're looking for the promotion.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 14 2011, 05:43 AM

Wait. Are you talking about 4 figures per runner, or altogether? A 4 figure total may sound a bit ridiculous, but I'm pretty sure I once saw a gm on here trying to restrict his players to 150 or 200 BP.

Posted by: ggodo May 14 2011, 06:22 AM

I mussed up the Karma the first time. I'm still not sure on the money thing, but since most of the jobs you guys have pulled have been higher end, well, mid-tier, I figure that 5,000 is a little low. Besides, the Johnson did crit glitch that one negotiation.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 14 2011, 06:38 AM

Don't worry about it. I like the way the games are going. Having to ration my resources a bit makes it fun.
*ah, watch out for that "pool our money" idea though. Atropos doesn't use any, and I doubt many people would object if I bought everything ever.

Posted by: TheOOB May 14 2011, 07:21 AM

Did I miss something, the title of the book is "Shadowrun" not "Street Crimes in 'da Hood". Shadowrunners are those who fall into the shadows of the corporations, who the corps deny and revile yet have to rely on to do their dirty work lest they risk outright war with their competitors. There are people in the sixth world who jack cars, sell drugs, and take out small time crime bosses, but they are not shadowrunners, they're criminals. Shadowrunners are the guys with the skill, gear, and drive to take a job from someone who's name they don't even know to go to a corp facility where they will likely be shot on sight(or worse) if caught, just to get something, or destroy something, all as part of a larger scheme they will never understand.

Shadowrunners are what keeps the sixth world moving, their the only ones skilled and crazy enough to go against the doubles and the triples, and that kind of work pays well, largely because running the shadows is expensive.

While it is true most shadowrunners didn't grow up wanting the job, Shadowrunners are not down on their luck SINless who turned a life of crime to pay the bills, those people are your druggies, your gangbangers, and if their lucky soldiers in a organized crime outfits. Shadowrunners are the ex-special forces guy, the brilliant hacker, the talented mage, the silver tongued adept, who normally would life happy, profitable lives, but for some reason they cannot(or chose not to) use their significant skills, for legitimate pursuits. Being unable to be happy productive wage slaves, and too skilled to be a common street grunt, they take to the shadows, doing the most dangerous job in the world. Shadowrunners are few and far between, but they aren't common thugs who do smash and grabs for a few thousand bucks, they are skilled professionals who do the jobs no one else can, and they get paid well for doing it.

Of course, we all know that runners usually live in crappy apartments that only have power for 12 hours a day, this is because even though they get paid very well, their job is expensive. They got to buy guns, ammo, armor, and gear. They have to pay for information, to set up safehouses, get new fake SINs when the old ones stop working, and upgrade to that new commlink or piece of 'ware just so they life through their next mission.

There are plenty of fluff reasons why runners should be well paid, and mechanics reasons as well. A lot of people complain that awakened characters are overpowered, and that's not true, it's simple that awakened characters gain the vast majority of their strength from karma, and get little benefit from nuyen. Other characters have different ratios. Street Samurai need both to improve, hackers and riggers improve almost exclusively via nuyen. If you're paying the runners 5,000 nuyen a run, but giving them 6 karma, thats only 833 nuyen per karma. The awakened characters are getting more and more powerful each run, while most of the other characters money is being spent on lifestyles, bullets, and contacts, leaving them nothing left to buy no gear, 'ware, and programs.

Posted by: Faraday May 14 2011, 08:10 AM

Actually, I've recently ran in a game where the teams payment was a 4-door sedan with assorted guns and ammo in the trunk.

Posted by: CanRay May 14 2011, 04:36 PM

Hope nobody geeked Little Jacob.

Posted by: Bira May 15 2011, 01:31 PM

This!

You can, of course, have a game about the kind of street criminal that lives with their mother, but that's not what "standard" Shadowrun is about. PC shadowrunners should get paid enough to not be desperate for money after paying for their lifestyle costs and replacement gear. They're action movie protagonists! While some of those do always seem to be down on their luck, it's not a default assumption.

There's also practical considerations. I've seen a lot of posts from indignant GMs complaining that their players prefer to go out and steal cars, make orichalcum, or do some other safe and profitable activity rather than take the offered runs. Why do these things look so good, financially, in comparison to "by the book" shadowrunning? People tend to think it's because they pay too much, but it's actually the other way around - shadowrunning pays too little.

Money isn't even that important! The best stories, even the best heist stories, aren't about money. And it's not like you should let them buy a warehouse's worth of military hardware just because they can afford it.

Posted by: Ryu May 15 2011, 06:58 PM

Great post, thank you.

Different teams will have individual payout schemes for different missions. Heavy Combat groups are good for shock value, but not secrecy.

A corp will have a certain budget for runs, and do those with the highest return first. Since your calculated expected average ROI for Team A should be 800% (800k-400k=400k), Team B will only be chosen based on higher total returns if there are too few targets available.

Posted by: kzt May 15 2011, 11:11 PM

I've had games were we effectively had a warehouse full of military hardware. Unless the runs involved primarily direct combat it's pretty meaningless. It took us months to find a run that we could use the tbird in. ...

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 05:30 AM

Just a queer ecology major... And it was the sheriff's ex-sheriff's fault for running him down. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Posted by: CanRay May 16 2011, 05:36 AM

My group had a contact with a warehouse full of explosives (Low, medium, and high. Hey, everyone has a hobby!), and toasters. He ran it as a digital memory farm.

And then there was the bus...

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 16 2011, 11:02 AM

Always overpay:

1) It's a game, people can be poor in real life, let them live it up in make believe land.

2) All those toys in the books you and they paid for don't do much good if they never get to have them.

3) You can always take toys away, and you should fairly regular. SIN's need burning, safehouses get burned, vehicles get blown up.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 16 2011, 11:11 AM

Yeah, a big advantage to overpaying is that you can take away toys without wrecking a character. Make it clear to the players beforehand that equipment comes and goes. You get captured, or sometimes you need to leave behind gear to escape, and that's just how it goes, but it can all be replaced. It's a setback, not a catastrophe.

Of course, if there's a particular piece of equipment the player is really fond of, you should be sensitive to that (implants, a really specially modded gun). If you take those away, think about a chance to steal/barter/whatever get it back again.

I agree with the wish-fulfillment point Lurker made. This is a game, we play it to get something Better Than Life out of it, grimy pennypinching isn't really that.

Payout should fire up the players' imagination: "think what we could do with that kind of money!" Isn't that way cooler than "wow, that means I can pay the rent"?



You know, I'm thinking. A character who's actually saving up for retirement, putting aside a significant part of each run's payout. At some point he'll be sitting on a lot of money. That's meant for retirement, but it can also come into play in an emergency: for example when his S.O. is captured by Aztechnology - time to finance an all-out war? Wouldn't that be interesting?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 16 2011, 11:30 AM

Tonight I paid my runners 100k up front for a job per person with 100k promised on completion. The catches are 1)the run is being financed by Lofwyr, 2)is not optional 3) and will be hard as hell. They will need to provide or acquire their own gear or material for said run. I'm curious if people feel this is inappropriate and why.

Posted by: Epicedion May 16 2011, 11:38 AM

200k seems excessive unless they're likely to burn through all or most of (or more than) the up-front cash over the course of the run.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 16 2011, 12:29 PM

Sorry just got back from vacation. Now what I was saying is that in game the first three character are acting like human beings (in the game). The next two are just meta-gaming. The third should get Karma for "Rule of Cool".

Posted by: Dez384 May 16 2011, 12:46 PM

The omnicidal maniac in my group would argue that buying guns bigger than his head is acting like a human being; it's what he'd do in real life.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 16 2011, 12:57 PM

I havn't actually crunched out the math for next session but at the very least their going to need access to a an aircraft and a pilot for same. That will set them back quite a bit up front as this isn't the sort of job they'll just be able to rent one for. Other then that we'll see how it goes, see above commentary about always overpay vice underpay.

Posted by: nezumi May 16 2011, 01:28 PM

The pay really does a lot to define the setting. Stingy pay (and/or high expenses) can set the dreary, dystopian setting. They have to eat dog food and live in a tiny flat that smells like diapers. Lots of pay results in PCs who, really, don't have stresses about cash any more. They're now high-rollers, even if they aren't actually any good at what they do (and they may quickly find themselves running more of a 007 campaign).

Both are valid game styles, and completely up to your players. Unfortunately, if most income is in cash, that means the dark, dreary setting is also limited in available gear. This is why I tend to give money and give gear, each separately, so you can have a million nuyen tank and live in your rat hole. Also giving gear I think tends to give a little more story to it, because you didn't just buy it out of a catalog, you found it (or it found you).

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 03:04 PM

Shouldn't it be?


Well, a million dollar tank for which you have no place to hide it or even fuel to drive around.

Thats what I meant with the gear and the life style should match.
You can't be Robin Hood and Bruce Wayne in one person.
If you go for Robin Hood you will stick with second hand Ware and the mage will rejoice if he finds the cash to bind a force 5 spirit. (Or even increase the level of his lodge)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 03:19 PM

There is your Disconnect. In most stories I have seen with Robin Hood, he had a fair amount of wealth, he just did not spend it on himself. He gave it to those who had nothing. Thus the Term "Hooding."

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 16 2011, 03:22 PM

Robin Hood plays in a universe where the quality of your equipment isn't anywhere near as important as skill. In SR equipment is a big part of a character's strength.

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 03:24 PM

Wealth he couldn't use, because you can't buy stuff if the guys selling stuff would arrest you...
In any event he would still be poor compared to Bruce Wayne.

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 03:24 PM

Wealth he couldn't use, because you can't buy stuff if the guys selling stuff would arrest you...
In any event he would still be poor compared to Bruce Wayne.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 03:54 PM

And yet, no one turned him in... Why, because he was more popular than the reward money that was being offerred. I would say that he did not NEED money to do what he wanted. Money means absolutely nothing if you have everything that you need or want in life.

As for the comment above by Ascalaphus, you are right, equipment plays a large part in Shadowrun. I fall somewhere in the middle. If you are going to have that warehouse with the big guns, planes and that tank, you really should not be living a street lifestyle. I prefer the big rewards, and I like blowing 100,000 nuyen on a party prior to hitting the Mitsuhama zero zone. You will never amass the credibility, reputation, and the equipment necessary, for your continued survival, to be hired for that Zero Zone Op, if you are constantly scraping by on that peanuts for pay scheme that I often see touted as the norm. As has been often said... if that is the case, I am going to go steel me some cars, and mug old ladies for their retirement checks. Why? Because it pays more and has less of a down side.

Posted by: nezumi May 16 2011, 05:44 PM

Again, it completely depends on the sort of game you want to play. But 'available equipment' and 'dreary setting' are only tangentally related when it comes to taste. I love to play games with combat helicopters, big explosions, cutting edge cyberware and city-shaking magic - but still have my characters live in the slums like they're extras in Blade Runner.

Upgrading equipment is also how you upgrade characters. No one wants to play a game with zero advancement. However, character advancement is about the character. Again, completely independent from the setting.

Posted by: deek May 16 2011, 06:26 PM

In my last campaign, I was stingy on the money, but the runners were corporate black ops that had a high lifestyle compensated by the corp. Money was really not a concern and I found it interesting that in the year and a half we played, no one really voiced a desire to upgrade their starting gear (including 'ware). I think the standard starting build doesn't really foster the need to get a bunch of new toys. My players were pretty much powerhouses from the start and only invested in minor tweaks to their characters.

I'd say, to start, figure on either 5-10K per run per player or lowball the hell out of them and see how they respond (this is basically talking to your players to find out what sort of game they are interested in playing). Some may not care how much they are being paid while others may be wanting to save up for something or have debts or high lifestyle to maintain.

Posted by: nezumi May 17 2011, 01:33 PM

Excepting the rigger, I've seen that a lot with SR3. A lot of that is because cash is flush at chargen, but skimpy during play, and the price for upgrades increases exponentially. It's rather disappointing, and I was happy to see SR4 flatten that curve out a little bit.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 01:50 PM

It has gotten a LOT better with 4th Edition, to be sure.

Posted by: TheOOB May 18 2011, 03:28 AM

You mean 5-10k isn't lowballing a lot? Lifestyle, ammunition, supplies, consumables, and bribe money alone can cost 10k a month in some cases(easily over 5k), so you'll never get significantly better gear at that rate. Your hackers(and riggers especially) hit their skill glass ceiling awefully quick, and street samurai are not too far behind. Without high grade drones and 'ware to look forward to how are these characters going to continue to advance?

Posted by: kzt May 18 2011, 04:05 AM

Yup. I've burned 15k of equipment in a run more than a few times. Ammo, explosives, bribes, props, IDs, drones, etc. Hell, I think I had drones fire that much in ammunition at least once.

Posted by: deek May 18 2011, 12:26 PM

I should have really clarified. 5-10k a run in a campaign with 3-4 runs per month is what I was saying. Obviously, if you are only doing one run a month, 5-10k is certainly lowballing.

My players have never taken more than one lifestyle and I don't think its ever been more than 5k a month. So, my normal stance is give them enough runs to cover their lifestyle (whether they accept them or not is their issue, not mine) a few times over, each month.

Posted by: TheOOB May 19 2011, 04:49 AM

Lifestyle is usually only a small portion of the money runners pay. Regardless, you still need to consider the nuyen to karma ratio. Assuming 7.5k a run, and 6 karma a run, your only at 1.25k nuyen to karma, which is about half of what a point of karma is usually worth.

Posted by: deek May 19 2011, 03:37 PM

Good point. I've never tried to balance nuyen to karma in my games and don't do an exchange between the two after chargen.

Now, I do talk with my players before a campaign is started and chargen occurs, so expectations are set. Most of the games I run, are done bi-weekly and its normal for me to accelerate xp/karma awards in anythin we play. Its just the nature of gaming as a working adult with family obligations. The last two SR4 games I've run, I've given between 7-14 karma PER SESSION. Everyone felt that worked, so I didn't need to follow published guidelines. As for nuyen, I just check in with my players from time to time, and adjust, if needed.

I think I've had success for two reason: 1) I don't exchange karma for cash after chargen and 2) chargen is so complex that none of my players have challenged me on the inequalities between BPs and karma values. They know that after chargen, we play by a different set of rules and they are okay with that.

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 08:42 PM

Another important question that doesn't get asked enough (In my mind, at least) is HOW 'Runners are paid, and how they clean the money so that they can spend it using their Fake or Legal SINs.

After all, if you're a stock boy at a Stuffer Shack due to worries of Technomancers hacking the AZT Beanpicker-Class Auto-Shelver Drones (Yes, I'm going to The Special Hell, I know), how do you explain that you're driving that tricked out BMW 400GT instead of taking the Bus or maybe a Dodge Scoot?

That thought is one of the reasons I made "http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=34367&view=findpost&p=1043761", BTW. His SINner job was a Forensic Accountant before...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 08:44 PM

Beenpicker Class Auto-Shelver Drones? Holy smokes, where can I get me a pair of those? That is just awesome

As for the answer... I accept Certified Cred, or Kind, your choice...
Forensic Accounting..... Nice skill to have in the Shadows...

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 09:13 PM

Hey, before Drones fell out of vogue, I'm sure they did all kinds of jobs that now have to be done by lazy, stupid, low-paid metahumans now. On the bright side, that increases the employment rate and increases purchases, so not always a bad thing. The AZT Beanpicker, Kong Wal-Mart ShelfMaster, and Horizon Anthropomorphic Stocking Clerk (With Life-Like© friendly smiling Troll face!) were probably very popular, and can be easily found in second-hand drone shops everywhere. Handy if you're a Mercenary Crew that needs to ensure that their ammunition stocks are sorted exactly right! Or even if you just want your Smuggler-Modified T-Bird loaded as efficiently as possible.

Certified Cred is good, but still electronic and potentially traceable. Serial numbers on the Nuyen (Just like on RL Bills) would tell people where the money came from, which serial number of the credstick it's on came from, and so on. Electronic Money is a great way to trace things still. If you just take the 'stick from Mr. Johnson, you're trusting that he's already cleaned it for you sufficiently, which may or may not be done, either due to ineptitude ("Forget about worrying about professionals, it's the amateurs you have to fear!") or a line-up to screwing the team over ("The 'Run isn't over until the Johnson has screwed you.").

The advantage is that it only exists in electronic format, so you can just deposit it (Exactly like moving a computer file, because, essentially, that's what it is), and move it around. A lot. Even passing it around in odd amounts from 'Stick to 'Stick will muddy the trail a great deal.

A bunch of Old, Non-Sequential, Beat Up UCAS$1000 bills are bulky, but don't have the electronic trail that nuyen has.

And, again, it all comes down to investigators spotting changes in lifestyle that make no sense.

Posted by: Dez384 May 20 2011, 11:52 PM

When is it appropriate to pay an advance to the runners? It would make sense if there would need to be a lot of preparation done before the run gaining specific equipment. However, if Runners are deniable assets, I wouldn't want to pay before a team finishes the job. My former teammates never let me, but there were many times I wanted to walk away from jobs before finishing them. (I thought that the payout wouldn't be worth finishing the job and that we should quit while we were ahead.)

Posted by: CanRay May 21 2011, 12:06 AM

Depends on the Shadowrun, depends on the Mr. Johnson, depends on the culture of the Shadows on the area you're in.

IIRC, Seattle is a Half-Up-Front Traditional area.

One thing the Johnson can give in lieu of money is Intel, which is worth more than Nuyen sometimes.

Deniable or not, 'Runners also work hard to ensure they get paid. There's a lot of suggestions for this in Vice, which I'll have to read again when/if I play "The Accountant From Hell".

EDIT: You're also dealing with people that shoot other people in the face for money for a living. Are you sure you want to stiff them?

Posted by: Daishi May 21 2011, 12:28 AM

There's the flip-side to that. The runners know they are deniable assets and will want proof of good faith. Putting up a large advance is a tangible demonstration that the Johnson is making a straight deal. The amount that a team can request up front will depend a great deal on their reputation. Teams with a reputation for cutting and running don't get any advance. Mr. Johnson won't even pay for their drinks. Pros with a rock solid rep for getting it done might expect half their fee up front before they'll take Mr. Johnson seriously.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 21 2011, 07:44 AM

We actually had a big discussion on this in my group as part of the recent mission, here's kind of the consensus which is more or less what i've always used.

As part of the negotiation process runners can ask for a portion of the money up front. J's can also offer a portion up front as a sign of good faith. Because of the professional nature of Shadowrunners runners who agree to a job, take money for said job, are then fail to perform it are consider pariahs. There can be exceptions to this is massive important details are obscured For example, you don't necissarily need to be told who owns the truck your being paid to destroy with all of it's contents, you do need to be told if that truck is hauling infants. So generally speaking I would always allow thsoe with social skills to devote a couple of successes to getting paid some up front.

If a J is a complete unknown in the shadows the fixer will usually as a condition of the work require some money to be paid in advance or the job paid in full in escrow with a trustworthy source for all sides (usually the fixer, but occasionally an organization.)

If the job has "stupid runner tricks" (no civilian casualties, no property damage, job must be accomplished within a half hour of the brief etc etc) there should almost always be an upfront payment to compensate for the hassle.

Now a lot of this highlights what i feel separates professional runners and mercs from amateurs. A runner once they have accepted a job and gotten paid for it feels obligated to complete the job or their rep will suffer. Conversely a runner that protects their clients anonymity and honors their wishes where reasonable reaps the rewards of sucha reputation.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 21 2011, 01:19 PM

I wouldn't mind if there were some sort of negotiation 'benchmarks' somewhere. Successes that you could call for, or give out, to influence the actual negotiation.

For example, 10% up front - 1 success.
25% up front - 2 successes.
50% up front -- 4 successes.
Payment in nuyen - 1 success.
Payment in certified credsticks - 1 success.
Pay increase/decrease by 10% - 1 success (May be taken multiple times)
Intel/Aid given - 1-4 successes depending on how good it is.

Etc.

Not a hard system, since those are always open for abuse, but, a few guidelines might be nice.

* Johnson A will pay in corpscrip (0 mod), with 10% up front for good faith (1 'buffer') and has some basic intel (1 'buffer')
* Johnson B will pay in Nuyen (1 buffer) on certified credsticks (1 buffer) but is a cheapskate (20% from normal price, -2 buffers).
* Johnson C will pay half up front (4 buffers!) but only in gear (0 buffers) and doesn't know anything about the target's security (-0).

And so on.

Posted by: TheOOB May 22 2011, 05:09 AM

Exactally, you could hire any hood of the street to deliver a package across the city for a fraction of what you'd pay a runner team to do it, but a runner team you know is going to make the delivery, on time, without looking into the package, and not cut and run the second someone starts shooting, because for runners, reputation is everything.

As for paying up front, I usually do it if I expect the run to require a large expenditure of money to complete, but only if the runners have a reputation of being trustworthy. I also use it as incentive if the runners ot more net hits on their negotiations than I planned to pay them(usually 1 or 2 net hits will get to the max Johnson is willing to pay).

Posted by: nezumi May 22 2011, 01:57 PM

For reputable runners, I usually pay half up front. If the Johnson can't manage, he pays additional after. If the runners have any rep, they'll follow through (or refund the Johnson) or they won't be working any more. Given how often Johnsons try to screw over runners, or die unexpectedly, paying ahead should be pretty much par for the course.

Posted by: deek May 23 2011, 06:34 PM

RAW already has negotiation tests and results handling pay increase/decreases. There is also boilerplate verbiage in all of the missions adventures that detail how negotiate can increase the payout. Oddly enough, even though I point that out to my player every time they negotiate, they never try to get more money.

Usually, the method of pay and when, I just leave up to the preference of the players. Maybe I haven't backstabbed them enough for them to ask these questions?

Posted by: nezumi May 24 2011, 12:25 AM

By the by, in SR1-3 (and I guess SR4?) if you fail on the negotiation test for pay, your pay goes down. To counteract this, the Johnson ALWAYS lowballs on his opening bid. When the PCs negotiate, even a mild failure is an improvement over the initial offer. This prevents the awkward situation of 'I was offering $20k before, but now it's $16k'.