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Posted by: Scyldemort May 13 2011, 05:50 PM

OK, so in a game I'm running, Evo is developing a line of cyberware intended specifically for Technomancers. It's supposed to be minimally invasive, and to take full advantage of the living node. My players followed up on the rumors, and now they're in a position to be able to get their greedy little paws on a few prototypes. So what I'm looking for is... anyone have any suggestions for how to work this mechanically?

About the best I can figure is to not try to plug it into the brain, but let the living node do that. Give it all a signal range of 1-3 meters, cost it as deltaware, and then produce products like 'encephalon that works with complex forms.' So... yeah. Anyone got any ideas?

Posted by: Makki May 13 2011, 06:04 PM

It already does, doesn't it?
current 'ware for TMs: Cerebral Booster, Neocortical nanites, Pushed Genware are some good examples.


I could imagine the following: a customized Nanohive only harboring one colony. It has been programmed by a TM and is therefore easily reprogrammable by any TM (using the rules for the Wild Card Nano Prototype positive quality from Augmentation)

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 13 2011, 11:23 PM

Id give them delta grade ( or better ) ecephlon crossed with skill wires when they plug it up they get "Welcome to the network node, begin compiling." but I am in fact evil.

Posted by: Scyldemort May 14 2011, 07:59 PM

Is there anything that needs to be done mechanically to represent the fact that this stuff is designed to interface with a biological node, or no?

Thanks to those who have responded.

Posted by: Loch May 14 2011, 08:11 PM

The biological node is really just a standard node like any other commlink, except that it can't be hacked by non-emerged entities.

I'm also wondering why a AAA megacorp would be wasting time designing and marketing deltaware implants specifically to technomancers (a VERY marginal fraction of the population, of whom an even more marginal fraction would be able to afford such implants) when they could just be kidnapping newly-emerged off the streets and sticking them in laboratories just like all their competitors are doing.

Posted by: Scyldemort May 14 2011, 09:48 PM

Why? In service of the bottom line, of course. Profit. Here is a market which, while small, is also wide open for anyone who can find a cost-effective way to exploit it. In my game, Evo believes it has found such a way. Could be they are right. Could be the whole thing is going to turn out to be a great big boondoggle.

Other services being offered: minimal ware packages for those who have no interest in being Technomancers and just want it all to go away so they can live normal lives, and treatments to restore the Essence of those who later change their mind. Ask about our 'peace of mind' discount! Get 25% off the price of any future restorative therapy purchased through our company if you buy our 1,000 nuyen 'peace of mind' package at the time you purchase your ware!

(Fine print: 'any' purchase refers to 'any single purchase.' This offer is not transferable, and may not be combined with other deals, coupons, or discounts. This offer may only be used to repair damage actually caused by the installation of Evo 'Emergence' ™ brand TechnoWare: it may not be used to repair Essence loss from other sources.)

Additional services offered include school testing programs, educational material for the parents of Emerged children, and Technomancer Registration Services.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 14 2011, 10:57 PM

I do think Loch has a point, technomancers arn't a signifigant enough market (yet) for this kind of thing at least according to how SR goes. I can certainly see a corp putting some R&D money into enhancing their own technomancer agents though.

Posted by: tagz May 14 2011, 11:01 PM

I can see a reason for it. Deltaware is practically R&D in itself. It's the most cutting edge tech being used in to address a custom fit, methods and procedures that once refined enough may change how current procedures are done.

So lets look at the situation:
You're having someone who has a rare biology come in voluntarily and take a procedure that can possibly give you and your company greater insight to the workings of said biology. Oh, and they're signing release forms limiting the liability you face to negligence or maleficence while you do this ground breaking work. Oh, and they'll foot the bill for the ware, the doctor's bills, the facility fee, etc.

You make a profit while getting to learn more about the TM nature. And by using voluntary subjects for this you create a positive public image as opposed to one that kidnaps and experiments. You might worry about this image in regards to Techno-hate, or people who hate/fear TMs, but the positive effect of having the TM's themselves like your company can improve recruitment of TMs into Matrix Security / R&D / Programming / etc.

Win win.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 14 2011, 11:11 PM

But, I think it's valid to say, they're not 'marketing' technomancer deltaware. That'd be crazy. They're almost certainly *developing* technomancer cyber/bio/nano/whatever, and almost certainly testing it on the poor (literally and figuratively) bastards they snatched off the streets. They're not people, they're just interesting new developments. There's no question of making a profit, or even a revenue, from a consumer relationship with technomancers (all dozen of them ).

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 14 2011, 11:26 PM

Honestly your not thinking dark enough and your concept of deltaware is a little off. Deltaware is delta because it's custom fitted to the individual and takes every step in the process to squeeze the same general processes as regular ware in there as non invasive as possible. Secondly megacorps don't give a crap about liability, your a technomancer, you have no rights, they are a megacorp, they are a law unto themselves.

Posted by: Scyldemort May 14 2011, 11:55 PM

Re: not thinking dark enough
Not every corporate activity needs to be in 'cackling supervillain' territory.

Volunteer subjects. Good PR. Accelerated R&D, and turning a profit at the same time. Corporate self-interest doesn't need to be actively malevolent - in fact, it's more interesting if it's not. "We're an evil corporation and we do what we want!" is a lame excuse for anything. Which isn't to say they aren't covering their bases and playing all the angles, just that their goal is profit, not 'evil.'

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 14 2011, 11:56 PM

Good PR? Technomancers are evil. How is selling them *augmentations* good PR? And again, what profit? They don't have money, and there aren't many of them. Voluntary subjects? They're actively hunted.

Posted by: Scyldemort May 15 2011, 12:13 AM

Not really. I mean, yes, there are still problems, and every now and then a young newly emerged technomancer goes missing, the whole 'anti-technomancer' thing seems to be dying down. There are thousands of technomancers living normal lives, and they don't all hide their abilities and pretend to be hackers. From 'Unwired:'

Posted By: Inbus
Although the mass witch hunts have declined, the corps still desire to turn our insides to the outsides, to cut us open in order to understand how we tick—so they can exploit our talent for their own machinations. With a choice of being hunted or shunned, many of us have chosen a third path: taking to the shadows.

> This is an exaggeration. Thousands of technomancers live un-molested normal lives—especially if they remain discreet. Many thousands more have embraced what they are and sold themselves into corporate service. If you believe that there are no technomancer spiders, you are quite mistaken.
> Puck

Seems to me a GM can basically run it either way (or both at once, for that matter).

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 12:17 AM

Or somewhere in the middle. Between 'hunted' and 'discreet', and between 'shunned' and 'corp slave', neither sounds like a good market for cutting edge, expensive, and apparently PR-friendly 'ware. *shrug*. I just don't think 'thousands' of at-best pet spiders is a viable market. This is a development sector, absolutely, but not a profit sector.

Posted by: Scyldemort May 15 2011, 12:24 AM

I suppose. Perhaps the market for this stuff is limited to the Shadows (aside from the 'we can make your son or daughter's technomantic abilities go away!' angle). Since it hasn't yet reached the point of public disclosure in game, I have plenty of wiggle room.

Either way, the population of technomancers does not appear to be declining. If the market isn't there now, it will be within a decade or so, and the winners in that scenario are the ones who prepared for it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 12:30 AM

I think that side idea is interesting: I wonder to what extent it's in-game knowledge that technomancers can be 'cured' by augmentation (Essence loss).

As for the future market, of course. As I said, it's 100% something the corps are working on. It's just that's totally different from 'something they're selling today'.

Posted by: Makki May 15 2011, 12:30 AM

That's the kind of advice a consultant worth his money will give. As long as nobody knows, where TMs come from, there is a chance their population will increase. It's just a matter of risk investment.

Posted by: Irion May 15 2011, 01:42 AM

@Makki

So I wonder what a consultant not worth his money will tell you.

Sir, there is a are tiny percent of people who are facing huge prejudices because they are linked to an event which is interpretated as the first try of an AI to enslave or even to eliminate mankind.
We have no Idea how their numbers will be developing but lets invest in targeting them as a consumer group for cyberware. Sending our public image to hell while we try to gain a part of a market so small we do not even have numbers on it.

I really wonder what bad advices are going to be like.



@Scyldemort

No there won't be. Why should there be such a market? You a targeting a sub group of a sub group of a sub group.
Yeah, this works in real life. But mostly with stuff which is very overpriced. (You pay for the name)
Or stuff thats cheap like hell and worth even much less.
Not with medical stuff in any way.
As soon as you have to get research done (a lot) you have to get the money back in again.

Conclusion of the topic:
Yeah I get it. You want a delta ware cyber suit personally adjusted for your TM so you do not loose two points of essence and your "magic-level" does not drop through the floor.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin May 15 2011, 02:02 AM

Wouldn't you say that varied pieces of ware are developed for specific niche markets? The math SPU? Cyberskull? ANYTHING intended specifically for trolls? Hell, even skillwires aren't a broad-base, advertise to everyone how much they need this kind of ware. Everything has its niche, and some company is going to go out on a limb and market to a group that is up-and-coming. 'mancers are right now in the position that metas were 30 years previous. All it takes is time for those who are hunted to become accepted and even "mainstream."

Honestly, SR has done the 'WE HATE YOU!' then later 'No, is okay, you're cool' shtik more than once. I'm surprised you find this so unbelievable.

Posted by: tagz May 15 2011, 02:10 AM

No matter what it's a niche area.

My thinking is that this would exist as a way to gain more knowledge and research without cost then actually make serious profit off it. The fact that there is a small profit is nice, but what will really pay off in the end is the R&D and the increase in TMs thinking that working for your corp may not be such a bad idea. TM security and programmers are in high demand given how hard it is to counteract a TM hacker. Also it's a great way of keeping tabs on the TMs who grace your doors for the cyber.

And on the "not dark enough", nothing says that Evo may not have one division that does this, while another does the more stereotype evil thing. That's probably how I would play it. After getting into it for a while, letting the players get involved and do some runs around this they would learn that many of the innovations that were used to give the TMs their deltaware came from some basement laboratory filled with patients strapped down to gurneys connected to IVs, pieces of their skulls replaced with hinged door for easy access, severe brain damage and mental disorders the norm.

Course, that sounds way more Mitsuhama then Evo.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 04:15 AM

There's not a profit, though. This research is ungodly expensive, so even if you had some rich technomancers buying things, it's chump change at best. There's no reason to mention it (and the word is 'revenue').

They would definitely be doing this research. There's just no reason to think they'd advertise the fact (even quietly), distribute the prototypes to the public, etc. That's just bad business. I don't really see how it would endear them to 'the technomancer community' and attract job applicants, either. 'Hey, come pay for us to experiment on you'?

--
A troll niche is vastly bigger than a technomancer niche. These things matter. Again, though, no one is saying 'no technomancer research'. There's 100% definitely technomancer research. We're talking about public, consumer, technomancer-specific deltaware-cost stuff, in the 'working prototype' stage.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 15 2011, 10:07 AM

Technomancers are rare now, but who knows, maybe they'll become more common in the future? In that case, whoever starts researching first would have a big lead.

And maybe the real purpose of this kind of research is finding an artificial way to create Technomancers?

Anyway, I think the most obvious piece of implant you'd want for a technomancer would be a Memory unit that can directly integrate into the BioNode. That would open the door for technomancers to directly run Programs instead of just CFs, and it might also open the door to turning CFs into mass-marketable programs.

Technomancer Threading is a fantastically fast way to create programs, discovering how it happens would revolutionize the software industry.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 01:58 PM

They have such a memory unit: the datajack. It doesn't let you run mundane programs in the bionode, because it's impossible, but it does give you unlimited memory space for video, etc.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 15 2011, 02:24 PM

I am sure the same was said about the Awakened at some point. Look at where they are now...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 02:32 PM

Let's look, actually: are there any augmentations marketed specifically at Awakened? I can't think of any, though there are some that *suit* them pretty well. Souped-up runner mages, anyway.

We can speculate a little, of course: now that it's a (relatively) mature market, I'm sure some companies in-game falsely advertise their gear as 'more magic friendly'. But a significant selection of specific augmentations designed for them? I'm not aware of this.

Let's pretend there were, though, and pretend that awakened and emergent were in the same boat as far as population and stigma (I think they never were). That still doesn't mean they'd be selling prototypes to (the early awakened) and making money on it, as Scyldemort and tagz suggest. They'd do their secret research on their test subjects, and be there selling release-grade items when the tide turned.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 15 2011, 03:39 PM

I agree that they would not "Market" it at the current time. Sorry for the confusion. My point was that when Magic came on the scene, I am sure the response was exactly the same as it was for Technmancers. Extract and Experiment, oftentimes violently (and in secret). SOME of those experiements, I am sure, were likely to determine if there was a way to take advantage of the new Awakening Community. Just as it will be so for the Emergent Community now.

Anyways...

Posted by: tagz May 15 2011, 06:05 PM

I may have missed something in the conversation. I assumed that these were typical wares, just in deltagrade. I didn't think they were for NEW types that behaved drastically different.

I figured we were just talking a delta-clinic for TMs. That seems somewhat reasonable. To me, the whole reason deltaware is even available in the first place is because it's close to experimentation and the corp offering it can gleem a little more data while offsetting their costs.

In the case of ware that interacts differently with the mind, then yeah, they're not going to be doing things nice-nice until they've had a good number of test subjects.

And personally, I don't see why TMs would need things specially tailored. Their Bio-node should be able to access anything DNI linked just like an implanted commlink. That thought is probably why I missed it.

Posted by: Irion May 15 2011, 06:30 PM

No, it does not. Why would it?

You have the highest grade of a clinik put you are only targeting a minimal percentage of the population.
This is only usefull if you are practicing in an area where this "spezialisation" would give you more customers due to a specific background parameters. (There life a lot of those people in the area and the other clinics can't tread them very well)

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 07:49 PM

The OP suggested a number of specifically technomancer, game-changing, prototype augmentations, not marketing existing products to technomancers. That's what we're talking about.

It's safe to assume that they're secretly developing the former, and also that they're (quietly) marketing the *latter*, but nothing else. I'm sure they market existing products 'individually' to everyone: athletes, mercs, wageslaves, CEOs, everyone.

Posted by: Irion May 15 2011, 08:52 PM

Yes, this sounds plausible.

Put than the "Prototypes" are the new marketing lables.