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Posted by: whatevs May 14 2011, 01:12 PM

This is sort of a spin-off of the 'Toughest Ork Merc Possible' topic. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34904

I'm in the midde of analysis paralysis regarding the best weapon for my Merc. Is there a combo that just plain and simple stands above the rest? Or should I get more than one for different situations? (example: one rifle that has plastic components for sneaking past mad detectors, and one that has an underbarrel grenade launcher for other occasions).

Also, should I be thinking SMG for enclosed areas like office buildings etc.? I can see 90% of campaigns taking place in urban areas. In real life, I'd probably choose an SMG over a more bulky assault rifle in those kinds of situations, but I havn't found any rules in the books (SR4A and AR) that deal specifically with using bigger weapons in tighter areas. Then again, I suppose that's why assault rifles have folding stocks, which puts me back at square one.

Someone please save me from myself! lol

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 14 2011, 01:27 PM

I mean, you *can* do this yourself, it's half the fun.

Most people focus on RC (5 means safe Long Burst, 8 is Full Burst) and clip size. Things like MAD-proof are very expensive and specialized, and will have sub-par performance.

There are no rules about 'bulky' weapons in small spaces (though some people who hate fun have written them as house rules).

--
Here's the basic 'best configurations' that I know off the cuff, and listed in rough terms. Smargun's given.

AR: Ares Alpha or Sernopal 88V; with 8 RC, Suppressor option, Extended and/or Dual Clips, Foregrip. (6-8k¥, F)
SMG: Ingram Smartgun or P93 Praetor; with RC 4(5) or 7 (Praetor is hax), Extended and/or Dual Clips, Suppressor, Foregrip. (3500-4500¥)
MP: Ares Crusader; with RC 4(5), Dual Clip, FA Mode, Suppressor. (4500¥)

Posted by: Thal'aen May 14 2011, 01:29 PM

To my knowledge, there are no game mechanics that differentiate how an assault rifle performs in close quarters vs. a smaller weapon such as an SMG. However, SMGs are more easily concealable, and therefore you might have an easier time getting them INTO said office building.

So in the end, it really all comes down to your personal style and that of your crew. Are you the type of runners who try to go all Matrix and conceal weapons to try to walk through the front door with? (and then get stopped at the scanners and have to shoot your way in anyway) Or are you more of the Bulletstorm type of team who comes in loaded for bear, turns on the Magnetic System on your military-grade armour, and walks down the side of the building to go smashing in through a window?

If your team is going to be doing a mixture of both styles (which is definitely the most likely outcome), it might be best to have two weapons, for different situations. As an example, for a 600BP Tir Ghost that I made for a concept game a friend of mine has discussed running, I built him to focus on dual-wielding the HK Urban Combat SMGs (which are MAD scanner immune), but still gave him the HK XM30 modular weapons system so that he can have the weapons available to fit any situation necessary.

Obviously, a standard 400BP character with starting gear availability restrictions will be more limited, but the idea remains the same - I, myself, also recently built an Ork Mercenary standard build character, and he wields an Ingram White Knight and a FN SCAR-H3 w/ under-barrel grenade launcher when the situation allows for it, but he also has a couple of pistols that are easily concealable for those times when discretion is called for.

Hope my rambling helps you make heads or tails out of your situation!

~Thal`aen

Posted by: whatevs May 14 2011, 01:44 PM

It's nice to see what the grass is like on the other side.

Posted by: whatevs May 14 2011, 01:53 PM

My group is mostly about stealth, but like you said, we have no problem going through the window when stealth isn't the right option or doesn't work. Was leaning towards the HK XM30 because of it's versatility, but the 5 extra build points for restricted gear turned me off. Might take the hit afterall though. That gun is the bee's knees. SCAR-H3... is that from WAR! ? Couldn't find it in SR4A or AR.

Posted by: Thal'aen May 14 2011, 01:57 PM

Yeah, it's from WAR! I think it's my new favorite weapon, actually - part of the new weapon class of Battle Rifles. They have a base DV of 7P, and as opposed to Assault Rifles, usually don't have the FA option. The SCAR H3 is as follows:

FN SCAR-H3: 7P, –1AP, SA/BF, 2RC (From Gas Vent II), 30© or 60© capacity, Avail. 10R, 3,500¥
Grenade launcher: SS — 6(m)

Posted by: Thanee May 14 2011, 02:21 PM

I prefer SMG over AR, because the damage difference isn't all that much (+1 DV and -1 AP; range is also better, of course), but SMGs are better when it comes to concealability, which - to me - makes them more universally useful, as you can often carry them with you (unless you go into high security areas), and they pack much more punch than a pistol thanks to being fully automatic.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Falconer May 14 2011, 02:48 PM

Yeah really, you're taking all the fun out of it... make your own weapon :). That's half the fun of downtime trying to figure out what madcap things you can pull.

Personally though, I kinda prefer heavy pistols to SMG's for concealability and punch. The biggest problem though is recoil comp if the pistol has any kind of burst fire. (many RC comp options aren't available to pistols or hunting rifles... if you get the urge to make one automatic).

That extra +1dam, -1AP is important when you're trying to get through high armor ratings though. That's an extra 2 net hits you need to damage a combat drone/vehicle or spirit.



I'm of mixed mind on battle rifles... one as a huge fan of competition shooting. I'm very familiar w/ the M-14 and it's sniping variants as opposed to the barbie gun M-16's... and prefer them... at the same time I don't know that they were implemented very well. I'd love to just slam a 20rd box mag on a hunting rifle and say done... but the automatics group is already a bit too overpowered and didn't need any more polish. I much rather would have seen them in longarms or as their own exotic weapon group. For all intent's and purposes... right now they're simply AR's only better.

Posted by: Udoshi May 14 2011, 03:32 PM

You may want to consider a Machine Pistol as a concealable backup weapon, since they use automatics. Plenty good with a decent dice pool, and fits well in a Hidden Arm Slide.

I've had good luck with a 5-7C(natural recoil is ace) and the Ares Crusader.(gasvent 4 and 40 shots). Pack a surprising punch with stick and shocks.

I know everyone loves the Ares Alpha, but I tend to like mine with the Alternate Clip mod. There's no seperate cost listed for the grenade launcher(the mods cost is Weapon Cost), so at my table, we've ruled that both parts get the extra clip instead of trying to figure out the cost of only part of the gun.
This lets me take non-lethal and lethal ammo in the same gun, and its really nice.

If you're a fan of versatility, the XM30 with Powered Easy Breakdown makes it very easy to change out on the fly.


In the SMG department both the Praetor(natural RC, large clip size) and the HK 227-X. Though, in the 227's case, its a lot better due to the line in arsenal which says that if a gun comes with stuff, they're mods not accessories. It starts to look a lot better when you realize it comes with a -6 sound suppressor AND a smartlink.

But hey, building guns is half the fun of the game! Just remember that modifications and accessories are compatable with each other, and you should never be afraid of using a top-mount smartlink Accessory if you need the modslots.
Also, Auto-Adjusting underbarrel weights(the mod) and Gasvent 3(the accessory) is a rather powerful and -very- cheap combination(300+150? Yes please), but it does cut into your options - you can't close Accessoried gasvents to use a silencer, and the autoweight is 4 mod slots.

Posted by: whatevs May 14 2011, 03:32 PM

I've tried to steer clear of the WAR! book (seems like everyone hates it). Lol

Looks like the responses so far are a mixed bag (smg's, heavy pistols, and assault rifles).

Posted by: Thal'aen May 14 2011, 03:56 PM

I don't really see why everyone hates the book. I mean, 90% of the new gear is far beyond a player's availability reach, but I enjoy some of the new weapons. I do agree that Battle Rifles would be a better fit for the Longarms weapon group, but... I didn't write the book. ~shrug~ The way I see it, it just gives us some new options to work with. If you and your group choose not to use it, there are plenty of weapons that would fill the same role that are available in Arsenal.

So, throwing the FN SCAR-H3 out, my first choice would be an Ares Alpha tricked out for maximum RC, and then having something like a Colt Cobra TZ-110 with an additional Smartgun system for the times when concealment is a must. But, as all the other posters have said - you have to find the mix that's right for you.

Posted by: CanRay May 14 2011, 05:10 PM

As have said time and again: "Right tool for the right job, you tool."

But my personal suggestion, as we are dealing with criminal types, is the AK-97 (Assault Rifle or "Carbine", ugh. AKS-97U to be exact!). For Mods, I suggest a Bayonet Lug or Gas-Vent System, a Shock Pad, and an External Smartgun Link. A Smart Firing Platform to mount it on next to your bed is also a suggestion.

As it's the same rifle, all the magazines (Ugh, "Clips") and ammo can be used when it comes time to ditch the old rifle/carbine with too much history on it, and get a new one. Just got to replace the lug or the gas-vent, which aren't expensive. The rest can be moved over. Remember to flush the memory of the Smartgun Link, possibly replacing the memory chips themselves to be absolutely certain. Be very, very, VERY careful of knock-offs, they are not as good at all. (Watch "Back To The Future" to watch the Libyan find out he bought a knock-off Kalash.).

Works for Pink Mohawk or Ice Cold. Serves five. I advise talking to http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/soa/ for your AK needs.

If it's absolute adaptability you want, you can't go wrong with the http://br0uhaha.deviantart.com/art/HK-xM30-Weapons-Platform-23549587 or the Steyr AUG-CSL (Arsenal Page 27.).

Posted by: Udoshi May 14 2011, 06:27 PM

Regarding the XM-30's Shotgun. Its actually better than it looks. Its not required to fire Flechettes, like some shotguns. 9P is not bad at all, or the range on slugs, or even the option to take shock lock rounds.

I do, however, think its AP code is a typo - it should be -1, not +1. That, or it wasn't ever updated from 4th's old flechette rules or somethig.

Posted by: Kliko May 14 2011, 06:32 PM

Ares Alpha.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 14 2011, 08:20 PM

What prohibits you from carrying a shotgun and an assaultrifle? 2 dedicated weapons willbe a lot better than that thing. Also reconfguration will take much to long to be of use in a firefight. Better get two weapons. they are cheaper and more easily available.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 14 2011, 08:26 PM

AFAIK, very few SR4 shotguns require flechette. The default for SR4 shotguns has always been slugs.

The 'reconfigurable' guns really aren't flexible; like Dakka Dakka says, they take forever to switch, and they also take different Firearms skills to use the various versions. You're gaining nothing.

Posted by: whatevs May 14 2011, 08:54 PM

My merc has all of the skills needed to use the different configs (he's a bit of a weapons expert) but i agree that it's a resource hog at char gen (especially needing restricted gear at 5bp to get it). If i find it during play I'll pick it up.

I liked CanRay's low cost option of the ak 98/97. If i did get any of the reconfigurable guns, and then lost them during play somehow, i'd feel stupid. With the ak's (especially ak97), I'd walk to the corner store and buy another (and some skittles).

Posted by: Whipstitch May 14 2011, 09:55 PM

Yeah, that's why the Ingram Smartgun X is such a venerable favorite, since it is feature rich right out of the box and has sound suppression despite being only Restricted rather than Forbidden. It'd be nice if it could fire in SA, but overall you can do an awful lot worse when nuyen is tight and you need a gun ASAP.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 14 2011, 09:59 PM

Definitely, that's why I mentioned it in my little list. The Smartgun's always been *the* standard for the off-the-shelf multi-role automatic.

Posted by: whatevs May 15 2011, 01:57 AM

Anyone get any mileage out of a target designator accessory and indirect fire? Or how about a periscope (ability to shoot around corners by only exposing hands/arms)?

Posted by: Hagga May 15 2011, 04:01 AM

Skinlinks, if your GM likes hackers, are worth their weight in gold.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 04:28 AM

Smartguns already do that, whatevs.

Target designators are really just for missiles and things, but a TacNet and smartguns can do Information-Guided Fire, which is a (better) kind of Indirect.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 06:05 AM

Get any full auto SMG or assault rifle, upgrade it to high velocity, and mow down everything that comes your way.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 01:59 PM

Nah. Big waste of mod slots for really no benefit, even if you somehow had enough RC.

Posted by: Bira May 15 2011, 02:16 PM

If you travel around a lot through "normal" channels, get used to a common, cheap gun with common, cheap modifications. That way, when you travel, you can just buy another gun at your destination rather than risk getting caught by airport security.

Posted by: Thal'aen May 15 2011, 02:31 PM

This may true, but any runner worth his salt would do well to invest in a discreet method of international travel and take their own gear along. I don't know about you, but I've had one bad experience too many with weapons I picked up on location not performing as advertised...

I always like to get my gear from someone I know and trust (or steal it myself), so that I know exactly what I am going into battle with. Just my two bits..

-Thal`aen

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 02:33 PM

Assuming, of course, that you're a globe-trotting super-agent. Runners can be local, and carry their special guns around.

Posted by: Thal'aen May 15 2011, 02:53 PM

True, true - I was just saying that if you WERE to do international work, you'd be a fool to rely upon public transportation.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 03:06 PM

Totally. Smuggling is half the fun!

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 05:47 PM

What about 2 long bursts to attack 2 enemies, or 4 separate short bursts to attack 4 enemies every IP?

Posted by: Bira May 15 2011, 05:58 PM

Well, if your home ground is Denver, that advice still applies .

In more normal cities, you'll also want a series of cheap disposable guns if your GM is the type to worry about forensics. Otherwise, go to town, but don't bother tricking your assault rifle out for stealth - if you're worried about getting through MAD detectors and such, use a handgun instead. If you need an assault rifle it's because you're going to, well, assault someplace rather than sneak go through security .

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 15 2011, 07:09 PM

Machinegun with underbarrel cannon.

If you're gonna go loud, go loud!




-k

Posted by: Whipstitch May 15 2011, 07:36 PM

It mostly comes down to the recoil issue and the relative lack of 4-in-one-burst opportunities. Unless your character is Rambo (which hey, is entirely possible) odds are there will be times where you find Full Narrows to be both deadly and unwieldy enough to make you want to stand pat. With that said, I do sometimes find it hard to pass up on a gun that goes to 11.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 07:41 PM

longbowrocks, you'll never hit them if you split your DP that much. It's nothing you can't do nearly/exactly as well with FA… without wasting all your mod slots and having no RC. If you must attack 4, Suppressive Fire with FA.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 07:52 PM

There's a big difference between splitting, and subtracting from, your dice pool. Large DPs are almost immune to subtraction, whereas splitting is their worst enemy.

Suppressive fire is only your weapon's base DV, not OKO level.

Posted by: Mäx May 15 2011, 08:05 PM

There's no DP spliting involved when shooting multiple targets with Full-Auto.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 08:07 PM

So? Again, you're not going to hit (let alone 'OKO') 4 targets a round anyway, and FA can already do 3. You'd need 4 targets within 1 meter of each other, and you've got 11 points of recoil and -0/-2/-4/-6 from multiple targets. It *can* be done, but only by shifting a lot of resources away from other places, and the benefit isn't worth it.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean you were using the capital-S Splitting rule. I meant that you were significantly reducing your DP (and the burst effects) in order to make multiple attacks. Everyone breathe.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 08:21 PM

*Whew!* I almost suffocated there!

I would argue that the 4 bursts can be at any targets you want. the one meter restriction appears to be limited to when you use a full burst against multiple targets.

As for recoil, I know there are additional rues in arsenal, so maybe I should check that, but I'm see 9 RC from combining just gyro stabilization and gas vent II, as per the core book.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 08:25 PM

You would argue wrong. HV is a variant of FA, and multiple targets from any burst fire (Long, Full, Full HV) are 'walked' within 1 meter.

Gyro stabilization is a big deal; it's a harness you wear and attach the gun to. That is indeed an option, but it has drawbacks. Other options are the optional Strength/RC rule, gyro cyberarms, tripods, vehicle mounts, etc. Whatever method you use is a lot harder than just using FA, just to make a fourth attack at -11. It's not quite so bad for the dual long bursts (second attack at -8, perhaps?), but it's also not much *better* than a normal FA 6/3 burst combo.

I'm not saying it's impossible, at all. I'm saying it's not worth it in most situations. As Whipstitch said, 3 targets or -9 dodge or +9 DV is usually plenty, especially if 4 targets/-11 dodge/+11 DV costs more (ammo, mod slots, RC needs, etc.).

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 08:40 PM

Thanks for catching me on the 4 short bursts. I forgot that short bursts by themselves are illegal with an HV weapon.

If you're going to have enough RC for normal FA, you're probably going to have one of those heavy duty recoil reducers, such as a gyro mount. 2 More points on top of that can come from a heavy barrel and foregrip or something.

And as you said, there's still the two long bursts you can do in terms of utility!

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 09:04 PM

Honestly, I usually aim for 5 or 6 RC, and we use the Strength rule; no gyromount/tripod, cuz those are uncool. That gets you up to about 8, which is enough for 6/3. It's *not* enough for 12… and again (at the certainty of being repetitive), 12 isn't really better than 9/10.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 09:08 PM

Yeah, upon realizing that the 4 short burst were actually an application of 1 supercharged full burst, I changed my argument in that last comment to: "what about the extra long burst it grants you, which *can* be used on anybody"

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 09:11 PM

Okay. 6/6 isn't that much better than 6/3.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 15 2011, 09:11 PM

Tripods are uncool for shadowrunners but what's wrong with a gyromount?
6 points that can be used either to compensate recoil or running modifiers is great.

An AR (HV or otherwise) in a Gyromount is ridiculous however. Use at least an LMG.

Posted by: Mäx May 15 2011, 09:32 PM

Unless that "LMG" is GE Vindicator Minigun, an HV modded AR is a better shoice then an LMG.

But my shoice for Gryromount might be HV modded Battle rifle with a 100 round drum

Posted by: Falconer May 15 2011, 10:55 PM

Probably because by strict RAW... the idiots who wrote the rules for recoil and HV mods...

They made the HV mod only available to AR's and SMG's. (there is one Battle rifle which is built that way... but that doesn't mean the mod is available by strict RAW reading to all BR's). It's not available to belted MG's which is where I'd most like to use it.

Similarly the idiots gave a double recoil penalty to MG's which are designed for sustained high volume fire (even on the move) while only giving lightweight weapons like SMG's and AR's a non-doubled recoil penalty getting it completely backwards.


Personally though, I'm all in favour of a HV modified white Knight.

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 05:47 AM

I know it's late for the party, but I might add that my favorite automatic weapon is actually the viper slivergun. At 8 DV/+5 AP, it won't often deal outright physical (stun track is usually shorter anyway) but still packs a punch on (meta)humans. It's not a forbidden weapon despite having sound suppression, it can operate in burst fire (easily modded to full auto), and it has a concealment of +0. That's better than most SMGs, which will often garner significantly more attention.

Yes, it's less versatile than most SMGs option-wise, it can only take one type of ammo, and the recoil comp options are pretty crappy (best used in burst fire, one in each hand). It's still an awesome gun.

Posted by: Mäx May 16 2011, 07:45 AM

BR:s count as Assault Rifles for what accessories and mod they can get.

Posted by: Udoshi May 16 2011, 12:28 PM

This is actually wrong, because its misleadingly printed. There's actually two kinds

Only SMG's and Assault rifles can be constructed as high velocity weapons.

the high velocity modification on the other hand, can be applied to any full-auto capable weapon.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 02:41 PM

Agh! We've got to stop meeting like this, Udoshi. No, that's nuts—loophole! The mod just says 'refer to the HV rules on p26', where it clearly says 'SMG/AR only'. There *is* no weapon 'construction' in SR4, and it's deliberately abusive to assume they mentioned it for no reason.

Posted by: Fauxknight May 16 2011, 03:19 PM

These are my list of 'best'. The Alpha and Praetor have free extra recoil compensation and the Ingram Smartgun comes with features that cost far more than the cost of the gun would suggest, making them great throw away weapons.

I also like the Ingram Supermach 100 and the Ares HVAR. Both of these weapons also come with free recoil compensation and high ammo capacities. They do have lower base damage, but being able to fire two long bursts generally makes up for that (for the Supermach thats 9DV/9DV in a pass vs a regualar SMG that can do 10DV/7DV). Since they don't accept much in the way of accessories you'll have to add most of your recoil compensation as modifications, but they have room.

I'm not a fan of big gyromounts unless you have a big weapon, but the wrist one is a huge bonus, get RC in excess of what you need for the rounds fired so that you can use the excess RC from the gyromount to negate running penalties.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 16 2011, 06:32 PM

In the world of automatics, SnS are king. You either break even or gain DV while having vastly better AP modifiers. If you aren't a SnS user (I can't blame you), then please ignore some of my comments.

Of the assault rifles, the alpha is the best. The innate recoil is the what seals the deal, but innate smartgun system and grenade launcher are great too. If you want something "legal" i.e. fake licensed, I would go with AK-97 or M23 (2 bullet larger clip for 250Y) because they are cheap and are free of the useless Gas-Vent 2 systems. Though you can argue that unless you're sticking a grenade launcher on it or badly need the range, SMGs are better than assault rifles.

For SMGs, there's a couple of prime choices. The Ingram Smartgun X is an amazing gun. Not only does it have the innate smartgun system, it also has the honor of being one of the few legal sound suppressed firearms. That alone should catch anyone's eyes. The praetor is a fine choice due to large clip size and innate recoil compensation. However the firearm I find myself using the most is the Ingram SuperMach 100.

The Ingram SuperMach 100 is one of the best SnS spamming guns out there. While not especially concealable (or quiet I would think), it's passable. In addition with careful mod sections and a cyberarm gyromount, you can get 11 RC. With that, you can do two long bursts per IP. That's 11S/11S -1/2AP which is quite nice. You can get an extended clip and that does a good job of keeping the SMG well fed (5 IPs till click).

The Executive Protector is a niche firearm, but it's a quite a nice niche. Being able to pass as a briefcase is huge. It requires a Perception (3) test to spot if you know what you're looking for. If you're not (or use a custom case if you read it that way), then you're just SOL.

Posted by: Mäx May 16 2011, 07:30 PM

I'm pretty sure that Cyberware scanner still only needs one hit to spot it like it does for all firearms.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 16 2011, 08:01 PM

While true, if you make cyberware scanners anyway common, you're going to end up playing Shadowrun: Where Man meets Magic and Technomancy. It causes trouble for so many concepts that you have to be a some variety of magic character or a technomancer to function. Since this is almost the case anyways, it really doesn't need any more encouragement.

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 08:33 PM

Agreed. You add a cyberware scanner when you want http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEuZgK669zY&feature=relatedto happen.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 08:35 PM

Um. Metal detectors and things are pretty common *now*, and we don't even have dangerous cyberware. There's no reason to not use cyberware scanners as much as is appropriate: any public/corp buildings, obviously airports, many places like nightclubs, anywhere for Johnson/criminal meeting, etc.

Posted by: Fauxknight May 16 2011, 09:00 PM

Being too common can be a disadvantage, who really wants to check every time the things go off? My rather simple beltbuckle sets the metal detector at the post office off every time I walk through it. The most I ever get is a quick glance, they look up, see that I look like someone doing normal post officy stuff, like dropping of packages, and they go back to what they were doing.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 09:03 PM

That's true, but the cyberware scanners are smarter than 2011 tech. They check for known shapes ('ware and weapons), among other things, and can provide details: what model gun, what kind of 'ware, etc.

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 09:04 PM

Cyber Scanners will note your 'ware. It'll outline the restricted/illegal/dangerous stuff. Bottom line, illegal or dangerous cyberware is just not something you take in certain games.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 17 2011, 03:34 AM

I love arguing with you, but even I can't argue with this.
It's in the mod list, so it's a mod.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 17 2011, 03:40 AM

You mean buildable rules-wise, or just not forbidden?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 03:43 AM

Basically all of them are rules-legal. He means setting.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 17 2011, 04:07 AM

Unless you have a hacker friend that can cause it to register as a chip to combat your dyslexia.

Posted by: Faraday May 17 2011, 07:28 AM

That'll take more than hacking unless the security is dumb enough to set up the scanners on a wireless network.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 17 2011, 02:49 PM

Oops I mean legal in a "I can buy a fake license and carry it around" sort of way. How much that matters varies wildly from game to game, but it's something to keep in mind.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 03:11 PM

Hell, in setting, you can get a legal liscense if you are a SINner and have reason to have the gun. It is not forbidden, just restricted.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 17 2011, 03:15 PM

Yes I think he just wanted to clarify that in legality they were talking about was in setting as in you can get a license and not in rules terms as in you may or may not add this mod to that weapon.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 03:17 PM

Probably... Move along, nothing to see here...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 17 2011, 03:19 PM

*Moves away whistling and looking inconspicuous*

Posted by: Faraday May 17 2011, 06:05 PM

*notices the ares alpha under that trenchcoat*

Posted by: longbowrocks May 18 2011, 03:09 AM

*misses the Thunderstruck held under his nose by a very stealthy Adept.*

Posted by: Faraday May 18 2011, 12:45 PM

I'm very attracted to magnetic weaponry, you know.

Posted by: whatevs May 19 2011, 03:12 AM

Okay, have to ask. There's been lots of focus on rc and ammo capacity. What about some of the less obvious mods and accessories like flashlights, periscopes and the like? Shooting from cover without being exposed to return fire and negating full darkness modifiers seem worth it to me. Am I missing something?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 19 2011, 03:15 AM

You already have a smartgun for that, and if its camera hasn't been upgraded, your eyes are. Flashlights are handy, but that's what duct tape is for, and all guns are pretty much equally amenable to flashlights anyway.

Posted by: Daishi May 19 2011, 03:23 AM

They also mention that "Only light, medium, or heavy machine guns can be constructed as miniguns" in a very similar side panel a few pages later despite there being only a single minigun, and no minigun modification. It certainly seems like they mentioned that for no reason. (Or at least, for no reason that made the final cut for Arsenal.) It's not abusive to assume they mention the HV restriction for no reason when there is clear precedent that such rules are, in fact, mentioned for no reason.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 19 2011, 03:54 AM

Wait, your evidence that the writers intended to allow HV-creep is a rule clearly (if unnecessarily) forbidding minigun-creep?

It seems obvious to err on the side of 'stop being a munchkin, HV is SMG/AR, and minigun is MG-only'.

Posted by: Daishi May 19 2011, 04:20 AM

Miniguns are actually "GE Vindicator LMG only" as it currently stands. So that specific rule on miniguns comes out of nowhere and addresses nothing. It seems to me that a reasonable assumption is that such a rule is sloppy and/or vestigial and best ignored. I'm arguing that the very similarly placed and phrased restriction on HV weapons should be treated the same way. As sloppy and/or vestigial and best ignored. The fact these are the only rules that address weapon construction (rather than modification) further increases my impression that they are the vestigial detritus of weapon construction rules that didn't make the cut and should be disregarded until construction rules should appear.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 19 2011, 04:35 AM

I just think it's interesting that both the rules you say to ignore are rules *limiting* these options. It's not like they don't make sense, or match the models given in the weapons lists. To conclude the opposite, you have to ignore the models, ignore tendency toward limitation, and ignore the logic of 'no pistol minguns'/'no HV pistols'. No, it's not impossible, but it's not easy either.

Posted by: Daishi May 19 2011, 07:16 PM

I think it's interesting that you're trying to defend a rule that cannot even be applied! Forget a pistol minigun, you can't even get an MMG minigun. There are no weapon construction rules at all, and there is not even a minigun modification. There is nothing for the minigun limitation to possibly limit! So now we have a precedent for obviously irrelevant rules limiting "construction."

Furthermore, apart from the Vindicator LMG, the only reference to miniguns comes from the GE Vigilant and Vanquisher Autocannons descriptions which both say "Use the rules for miniguns." Shall we assume that includes the restriction to only light, medium and heavy machine guns, thus preventing the autocannons from existing? Of course not. The external reference must imply only the rules for firing rates. So now we have a precedent for applying only the rules regarding firing rates when such a side panel is externally referenced.

The only side panel quite like the minigun panel is the high velocity one. So when the High Velocity modification is mentioned, I'm inclined to treat the high velocity panel the same way I had to treat the minigun panel and only use the firing rate rules when externally referenced, ignoring the restrictions on "construction."

Furthermore, the Modification rules do specify restrictions on weapons that can be made high velocity ("Full Auto-Capable Weapons Only"), but conspicuously make no mention of assault rifles or SMGs. Only listing a partial limitation in the modification description and outsourcing the rest of the limitations to the referenced rules would be unique among modification descriptions. Ignoring "construction" rules and only using firing rate rules is not unique.

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 07:41 PM

The best Assault Rifle in the game is:
Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon 10P -5 SS
Firing Selection Change: FA (large mod 4 slots)
Gas Vent 3 (2 mod slots)

On a Smart Firing Platform

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 07:50 PM

But you can...
You know what a Minigun is (You have an example of one built upon a LMG Frame, and they direct that you can do the same with heavier frames)...
A MMG Minigun owuld be built on a MMG Frame (Thus all the rules are the same for the LMG Version, but damage is better, and AP is better).
Same goes for HMG style Miniguns. Simple, really...

Why must everyone have everything spelled out in stone for them?

IF SO... Here you go...

Stoner-Ares "Shredder" Minigun (MMG). Damage: 6p, AP: -2, Modes: FA*, RC: - Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 16F, Cost: 10,000
Stoner-Ares "Screamer" Minigun (HMG). Damage: 7p, AP: -3, Modes: FA*, RC: - Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 22F, Cost: 18,000

The rules say you can have them, and so, here they are... That is not all that hard to do, and looks balanced right out of the box... If you find them to be a little off, change them a bit.

As for references to the Vanquisher and the Vigilant Autocannons... They function LIKE Miniguns... How hard is that? The work LIKE a minigun does. Simple...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 19 2011, 07:51 PM

Daishi, technically, autocannons aren't miniguns. They just shoot fast, as you say. It's a straightforward case of analogy, not a precedent for bending rules. Anyway, you're still up against the same three issues: game balance, apparent intent, and model precedent.

I still don't think you can Firing Selection on it, sabs.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 07:53 PM

Except that it is not an Assault Rifle... And no modification (assumming it is a legal modification) you do to it will make it so. It is an Assault CANNON...

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 07:54 PM

Bah, it fires like an assault rifle, it uses the same skill (automatics)
It's effectively an assault rifle, but with more damage, more range, and better ap.

Posted by: Udoshi May 19 2011, 07:58 PM

This, basically.

I really don't find it too unreasonable that some guns can be modified to fire two more bullets per unit of time than other models, if said gun is already full auto anyway.

The real world is full of such examples. Not all guns have the same RPM, even if they are considered 'automatic' weapons. Yet in shadowrun, a TMP, an MP5SD5, and an m240 machine gun, and a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgiUSEpg8Xc all put the same amount of ammunition downrange within the shadowrun rules.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 08:03 PM

Since when does an Autocannon use Automatics as a Skill?

Please see Text in the Rules...



See... Does not use Automatics at all...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 19 2011, 08:05 PM

You're making my point, Udoshi: SR4 rules aren't realistic. They're based on abstraction and (theoretically) balance.

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 08:08 PM

Damn it I need to stop playing Riggers so much.
I'm so used to Gunnery, I forgot about that part.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 08:11 PM

No worries...

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 08:14 PM

That weapon on a smart firing platform is really frightening. A Hacker/Rigger using Gunnery and 'jumped into' the Smart Firing Platform starts being able to do full auto narrow bursts with 5 ip.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 08:24 PM

Well, sort of, since you run out of ammo each IP, so you really only get 1 IP out of it. I would prefer a HMG Minigun for its belted nature... Having to reload every IP gets tedious...

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 08:59 PM

Actually, I just thought of something. Would a M2-HB with a shoulder brace, a pistol grip, and a new trigger system be an assault rifle for a Troll or Giant?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 09:06 PM

As cool as that would be... No...

Posted by: Daishi May 19 2011, 09:24 PM

If you want to house rule in some MMG and HMG miniguns, I'm all for it, but that hardly changes my argument. A rule that can only constrain house rules is a very bizarre rule. If, somehow, that rule was in fact intended to restrict house-ruled new miniguns, then that only shores up the argument that "construction" rules are separate entities from Modification rules.



Right. So the minigun rules can be used as only referencing the firing rates. Why can't the same be said for high velocity firing rates?

I'm not talking about bending rules, I'm saying the "construction" rules don't apply to anything and are just floating there. If the Modification rules stated "only Full Auto-Capable SMGs and Assault Rifles," then I'd just say, "Well, that's dumb," and house-rule it to apply to LMGs at a minimum, but that's not the situation here. Instead, we're talking about whether or not to bring in a fuzzy restriction through the backdoor with bad precedent. No house rules needed.

1) Game balance: How is an HV LMG more imbalanced than a minigun LMG? HV would be much more in keeping with an LMG's raison d'etre, anyways. If you hate the idea of pistol miniguns, then prohibit pistols from any house ruled minigun modification you may put forward.

2) Apparent Intent: The apparent intent is to address construction rules that don't exist. It's plainly obvious for the miniguns and somewhat obfuscated for high velocity.

3) Model Precedent: I'm unconvinced that model precedent somehow affects the HV modification (at the very least, if it did, shouldn't that modification also drop the damage code by 1 as well?). To reiterate a previous point, the autocannons establish a model precedent where only firing rates need be regarded when the side panels are referenced.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 09:31 PM

I will address #2... The apparent intent was to give you options, based upon what is being presented in the book, for creating something else. In the Minigun case, they give you a Minigun, based upon the LMG. Then tell you that you can use the same rules and apply them to the MMG and HMG, with the result being an MMG style Minigun, and an HMG style Minigun. As I indicatged aboveabove. Creating those 2 Miniguns is not Houseruling, it is using the example they gave (IN THE BOOK) to create such a weapon and applying it to what they meant it to be used for, in this case MMG Miniguns and HMG Miniguns.

They further expanded this with the inclusion of Autocannons. Which use those exact same rules, just on a much larger scale.

That is Completely different than what you are saying...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 19 2011, 09:33 PM

Daishi, the same could be said for HV firing rates… but it's not. The mod in question is explicitly High Velocity, not HV-like.

1. If you're going to house rule, all bets are already off. No point even talking about it.
2. I don't agree. In addition, I think the direction matters: I'm on the side of limitation, you're on the side of not.
3. I think the mod *should* drop the damage code, personally. The autocannons are non-miniguns that happen to use the same rate. *shrug* Anyway, the fact that there exist only SMG/AR HV examples is amply clear for me on the precedent issue.

Now, it's true that I'm not really worried about this. Above, I argued for a while that HV isn't really worth it anyway (though some configurations can indeed make use of it effectively). I just don't like sneakiness with the rules.

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 09:58 PM

Pity. A troll with one of those would be one hell of a roadblock.

Hey, good name for a handle, as well!

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 19 2011, 10:02 PM

He can still use it. Heavy Weapons skill isn't a disease.

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 10:06 PM

One of the Shadowtalkers I have with my work ("Tiny Trog") has it (The skill, not a M2-HB Assault Rifle), and is going to make an appearance in the next Nas story I write.

Oh, and http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/machine/mg59/m1919a6_1.jpg. Didn't work so well, but it was a taste of things to come. Ironically, also a design based on a John Browning invention.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 10:08 PM

Not saying he can't use the weapon that way... There are rules for that in Arsenal, I think. He would just have to use the Heavy Weapons Skill is all... Hell, A Troll with a Minigun is just awesome. Bonus points for an HMG-Style Minigun...

Posted by: Daishi May 19 2011, 10:36 PM

Any new gear fabricated out of thin-air is house-ruled gear. If I put forward a totally new plain-jane SA Light Pistol, regardless of how consistent it is with other Light Pistols, that's still house-ruled gear fabricated independent of existing rules. All they say is "Only light, medium, or heavy machine guns can be constructed as miniguns." There's no talk about "hey, make your own using the vindicator as a template." The only line in question is a restriction, not a prescription, that just sits there at the end of the panel coming out of nowhere. If you want to spit out some new gear to fill the now obvious hole, I'm right there with you, but I'm still gonna have to pitch it to the GM as a house rule that I just eye-balled together.

Again, I'm arguing that the only two weapon "construction" rules on the books are vestigial rules with no active bearing on the game, but if you want to say that they are there with an actual purpose regarding new guns, then that only gives weight to the argument that they are "construction" and not Modification rules. Either way, HV mods for LMGs etc are legit.


The autocannons aren't described as minigun-like. They say "Use the rules for miniguns." By a strict reading, that means they can't exist. But there's no point in pulling the the "construction" rules back in. I'm just applying the same logic to the Modification rules. The HV modification gives its own restrictions and then turns the applicable firearm into an HV weapon, and then references the rules for HV weapons. I didn't pull in the minigun construction rules through a backdoor, and I'm not about to do the same to the Modification rules which already have their own restriction sets.

1. My point there was that your game balance concerns would lie in the territory of house rules since there is no minigun modification to worry about.
2. Fair enough. But favouring limitation in any ambiguous situation is a commitment to preference that I don't share. I just think in this case that the only two weapon construction rules in the game serve no viable purpose and it's sloppy to try to pull one of them in through the backdoor to the Modification rules just because that increases limitations.
3. The SuperMach and the HVAR are only precedents for stock models, though. They have no explicit bearing on after-market modifications.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 10:40 PM

The point is that you are not applying Logic here Daishi... You are taking them in isolation. Such things are not fabricated out of thin air.

They tell you what to do, and you choose not to do it. There is a difference...

But No worries. In the end we apparently come to roughly the same place.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 20 2011, 08:52 AM

Making the "game" shadowrun entirely ridiculous. Now you can only play in the barrens or as salarymen. Congratulations. (Or you can play mages and mages, of course, at which point there will be glow-moss EVERYWHERE.)

Sorry for necroing that particular point, but the scanner just kills the game, IMHO, unless you make it quite uncommon. (E.g. house-rule it to be REALLY expensive.)

Posted by: Summerstorm May 20 2011, 09:02 AM

Hm... since when does a scanner stop a runner? You could have just high quality stuff, licenses for shit on fake SIN's, pre-hacked the scanner or database, asked your doc before the implantation to make it look like something else (yeah no rules for that at the moment... but come on, what gm just says NO?), bribed your way into the are or infiltrated it through other ways.

I am really not worried about a scanner.

What i am worried about is that detecting infra-structure finding all comunication-nodes which doesn't belong and patroling minibots and such.

Posted by: Socinus May 20 2011, 09:03 AM

This is virtually standard issue for many of my characters

P93 Praetor E SMG, costs 850 out of the box and has a 50 round clip. Slap Additional Clip on one and you've got basically a 100 round capacity for 1,700 nuyen. Add the obligatory smartlink and you can, as a free action, switch between the clips. For an extra 500, you can up the weapon's capacity with Extended Clip to 126 rounds. By adding Gas Vent 3, Foregrip, and a Shock Pad, you can bring the weapon up to a recoil compensation of 8.

The total cost of this is 2,700 at an Availably of 11.

If you've got some extra cash, load it up with Narcoject and Capsule rounds (A full load will cost you ~6,600). Suppressive Fire a group of guards, duck behind cover, and listen for the thumping.

Even with standard ammo, you can load this gun on a Monday and shoot it until Friday without needing to worry about reloading.

Posted by: Faraday May 20 2011, 09:07 AM

I agree. If I put players through a scanner it's a big part of the run and not a common affair. They're largely for airports and high security areas, sensitive border crossing, etc. There should also also alternatives to simply walking through it, like hacking the thing, or just avoiding the checkpoint. Also, again, sometimes you just want players http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEuZgK669zY&feature=related

I love the Praetor, I really do. But it IS a very illegal military gun in most places. Don't get caught.

Posted by: Saint Sithney May 20 2011, 09:51 AM

You could walk the fire back and forth between two targets.

This is really the only way to get two attacks on two targets in a single IP besides shotgun choke or area attacks.

Posted by: Saint Sithney May 20 2011, 09:53 AM

It's not particularly more illegal, just harder to come by. Illegal and rare does turn heads though..

Posted by: Faraday May 20 2011, 10:05 AM

It's specifically designed and built for UN peace keeping forces. It's not just restricted, it's a *forbidden* item. Meaning it is basically impossible to carry one legally.
I will quote: "A forbidden item may never be legally purchased or owned, let alone transported or used, by a private person. Don’t get caught."

Granted, this only applies by jurisdiction. You can open carry in the barrens and no one will care. But you'd better hide that thing well if you get anywhere near decent civilization.

Posted by: Saint Sithney May 20 2011, 10:10 AM

I meant, not particularly more illegal than any other forbidden weapon/accessory/ammo/mod/electronics. I suppose it is more innately threatening to have a forbidden gun than it is to have, say, a tag eraser.



RAW Gatling-style weaponry exists. You just have to go to Germany to get it.

http://raben-aas.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d1ott1h Damage: 6p, AP: -2, Modes: FA*, RC: 0(1) Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 18F, Cost: 11,000¥

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 12:56 PM

Sweet... Too bad I am not in Germany...
Oh Well... Maybe we will get an English Conversion eventually (Though I am not holding my breath)...
Nice to know that I was not all that far off...

Posted by: Socinus May 20 2011, 05:02 PM

Per RAW, the final package has an Availability of 11. That isn't forbidden or even restricted.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 05:20 PM

Seeing as how it starts at 11F, that should be some trick. The "F" in the Availability Code indicates that it is Forbidden... Which means you cannot buy it legally, nor get a license for it. Get caught with one at your own peril.

Posted by: Mäx May 20 2011, 05:26 PM

I would like like to know where you wound this wonderfull mod that lets you drop F out of the weapons original availability

There are no non-restricted guns in this game(tasers and super squirt don't count as guns)

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 20 2011, 05:37 PM

Which means if the cops catch you you might just as well use the damn thing.

Interestingly, those codes all don't count for Corporate security or other bigger organisations, since I'm sure they carry plenty of F items around with them . Which also means you just need the right ID in practical gaming, even though you might never be legally allowed to get a license for one.

(I'm open to being disproven, but....)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 06:03 PM

This is actually pretty true. But then again, those Corporate Goons do not own the weapons (or other "F" rated items) that they use, they are likely issued them. It is a lot like the Current Military. You can carry illegal weapons, but you do not actually own them, and are only allowed to use them within the purviews of your job.

Actually having a License for an "F" rated weapon would be somewhat of a Red Flag in my opinion...

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 20 2011, 07:34 PM

From what I can figure out, the difference between R and F is that you can buy Fake Licenses for R and civilians often have real licenses for R. Therefore R items are decently common and check out after a simple license query. Fs are noticed and have clear quide lines. I think it's a tad silly to call the military for a SMG, but I could see a SMG that only on-duty soldiers can legally use. I guess I see it as the difference between a carrying a concealed pistol with a conceal carry permit and a carrying around a M16.

While you might be able to buy "lol I'm a UCAS soldier" fake sin and license, I do think soldiers using F stuff only applies while on duty (just like soldiers in the US don't carry M16s when they shop at the local grocery store). It makes getting away with it more troublesome. Then again the legality system in SR is messed up before you reach extraterritoriality.

Posted by: Summerstorm May 20 2011, 07:48 PM

Aye, the point is: who you are, and who do you work for?

For example:
You can have very well a "license" to be a killer-cyborg, loaded with illegal crap and heavy weaponry and biological weapons. BUT, you are effectively PROPERTY of your corp for that. Neither the state nor other corporation will have you enter their areas. You are only aknowledged and of use on corp property.

Same with weapons: As long as you are on YOUR ground you can do whatever you want. Outfit your guards with miniguns? Sure why not. You just can't bring it into the UCAS.

Overall if you can "just" go undercover as... say a "Firewatch" member, no one on any Ares domain will question you having weapon-foci, Move-by-wire, Laser eyes and carrying a grenade launcher. Just make it SEEM legit *g* and follow protocol.

Posted by: Daishi May 20 2011, 09:17 PM

I went the other way with the Praetor as a standard. Take the Electronic Firing and Flashlight options, put in Integral Suppressor, Chameleon Coating and a Foregrip as mods, and then round it out with Smart Gun System and Cyber Safety as accessories. Y3215 and avail 12F (the Praetor is already F, so may as well take the F suppressor). If you have a Strength of 6+, that's enough to cover the recoil on two short or one long burst. It makes for a good sneaking around gun (-7 on Perception to locate the shooter) and can reasonably stashed in very useful places. Like a messenger bag or a smuggling compartment on a bike (both EM shielded to block casual scans).

A similar stealth variant of the Ares Alpha is a typical primary weapon for runs in my crew. Suppressor, Chameleon Coating, Personalized Grip for the modifications. Air Burst Link, Cyber Safety, Low Light Flashlight, Folding Stock, and (if allowed by the GM) an Underbarrel Weight.

We love the integral suppressor for its extra reduction against Perception tests (even if it does hoover mod slots), and Chameleon Coating is the norm for all our long-arms to keep the Ruthenium Polymers on our infiltration suits at full rating.

Posted by: Socinus May 20 2011, 09:23 PM

Gah! The generator I use doesnt have it listed as F

I just checked Arsenal, you're right

Posted by: Mäx May 20 2011, 09:27 PM

And you didn't find it at all weird or suspicious that an SMG had an avail of 11 with no R or F there?

Posted by: Saint Sithney May 20 2011, 10:24 PM

That's one of the things that makes the HK-227X such a winner. Since it has an integral suppressor standard, it has more free slots for stuff like manual breakdown. If you need to get a gun in the front door, breakdown is the business.

Posted by: Faraday May 20 2011, 10:46 PM

Agreed. Manual breakdown is one of my favorite mods. For subtle firepower, I like bringing Ares Sliverguns. Sure the ammo is expensive and sucks against armor, it's still better overall than an SMGs using flechette.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 10:58 PM

And you can always mod the Slivergun with FA if you like... And Dual Clips if you really need it...

Posted by: Faraday May 20 2011, 11:03 PM

Suppressive fire in a +0 concealability package *drool*. Granted, you only get 2 IPs worth of that without improving ammo count. >_>

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 11:06 PM

Indeed, but it is very nice to have a a last ditch backup...
By increasing the ammmo count of both Magazines, you can suppress for 3 IP's...

Posted by: Daishi May 21 2011, 12:00 AM

Good point. I tend to favour integral recoil (e.g. the Alpha and the Praetor) enough that I'll usually pay the mod slots for an after-market suppressor, but getting a built-in one is certainly worth considering, especially when it comes in an SMG that's only Restricted.

Manual breakdown isn't something that I usually look to as a standard option, but it is very handy for special purpose weapons. A Barret Model 121 in a backpack has lots of potential for mirth and mayhem.

Posted by: suoq May 21 2011, 05:43 PM

Slowly going nuts. Where are the dual clips? All I can find is the one that's part of the HK PSG Enforcer. Could have sworn it was a gun mod, but I can't find it.

Offtopic. The Morrissey Élan is annoying me. It's not forbidden but it's ammo is. Grrrrr...

Edit: Thanks Tymeaus Jalynsfein. I'm less crazy now.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 21 2011, 05:45 PM

Page 147-148 of Arsenal. Called Additional Clip...

Posted by: Udoshi May 21 2011, 05:54 PM

I know shotguns don't get much love in SR4, but for the discerning Longarms user with a decent face to get them gear, the Auto-Assault 16(arsenal28) is rather excellent with the addition of armor piercing flechettes(war 156).

the AA-16 also has the distinction of being the only shotty to come with a gasvent standard, mostly because the rules for gasvents changed between 4th and anniversary. A simple auto-adjusting weight gives you the 4 extra RC you need for long bursting.

I might recommend an additional clip for the other mod, so you can swap to long-ranged slug ammo, and a smartlink accessory.

9P ap-1 is really, really excellent at close ranges. And thats before you factor in burst fire and choke settings. With AP flechettes, Medium Spread (DV-2, AP+2 compared to regular, so 7P ap+1), starts to look a bit better. With a short wide burst, you can slap a -4 defense penalty on someone for only 3 shots, and be about as effective as a regular shotgun, and even hit two targets at once.(due to choke settings).

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 21 2011, 07:18 PM

True.

What are you talking about I'm not aware of any rule change.

That is a very creative interpretation of the rules. The adjusting weight provides either 1 RC for the first shot or 2 RC for the second shot, or 2 RC for FA mode. Not 1+2. Don't forget to double the uncompensated recoil.

Posted by: Mäx May 21 2011, 09:37 PM

Only if you load it with one of the forbidden ammo types, my Sasha for example has a pair loaded with S&S(in hidden gun arm slides) so both ammo and guns are only restricted.
Of cource this raises an interesting question, do many of GM:s have the cops check the content of characters guns magazines after the SIN check gomes back saying they have a permit for carrying the gun.

Posted by: CanRay May 21 2011, 11:38 PM

Depends on the cops, depends on the situation.

If said officer is looking for *ANY* reason to bust the 'Runners, they might.

Of course, if they fail to find anything, there's always dropping a Streetline Special with a history they took off some punk a week ago, and hey, murder charge! Good bust for Officer Crooked.

Posted by: Udoshi May 22 2011, 01:58 AM

You're misreading it. The auto-weight provides several effects.
It provides 1 point of RC for the first shot of a phase, and 2 for the second. (this effectively negates the 'first bullet is free' rule).
Weapons in FA Mode - that is, not Semi Automatic, not Burst Fire - the actual MODE you're in, which you can change around as a free action with your smartlink - get 2 RC.
You always get the benefit of the first rule, but the second doesn't apply if you're in SA or BF mode, only FA.

If you check the Full Auto rules on page 154, you'll notice that weapons in FA mode can fire short bursts (the actual text says to look at the above section, which is Burst Fire Mode).

So yeah. If you have a weapon that both FA and BF(like most SMGs), there's basically no reason to keep it set at anything but FA, because you can fire any sort of burst you want without wasting simple or free actions to change the settings.

Regarding the shotgun/gasvent comment: My phrasing was kind of off. The AA-16 stands out because it has a gasvents due to manufacturer-fu, when shotguns aren't normally allowed to take gasvents.(i ended up checking 4th, anniversary, arsenal, arsenal second printing. Shotties aren't on the list on any of them, if you're thinking of checking). This rule has recieved criticism on dumpshock in the past, because real world shotguns can and do have gasvents - i believe they may be called shotgun brakes.

Thats what i was trying to say, but kinda failed it because I was in a hurry to get to work. Hope that clears things up.

Posted by: suoq May 22 2011, 04:25 AM

But (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it's now detectable with a MAD scanner, which gets rid of one of the Morrissey Élan's big advantages.

Posted by: suoq May 22 2011, 04:31 AM

What I see is "A weapon firing on FA mode receives 2 points of recoil compensation.". What you're describing sounds like "A weapon firing on FA mode receives an additional 2 points of recoil compensation." As I read it, it comes across as a set of "or"s, not "and"s.

Posted by: Udoshi May 22 2011, 05:08 AM

I think the general idea is 'if you're firing more bullets, the smartweight is more effective because its a steady, not stuttered stream of fire'.

The two rulings aren't mutually incompatable. One does not preclude the other. They're all seperate, discrete sentences, and there's no AND/OR/Exception text.

Why, exactly, wouldn't a full burst get an RC of 3 from the weight? Its the first shot of the phase, and its FA. That circumstance satisfies all of the rules presented.

If you're going to whine about balance, you need to consider the opportunity cost of what you're using. 4 of 6 modslots for 4 RC is actauly fairly balanced. You can get 1RC/slot for a variety of other sources(some stuff, like the sling, doesn't cost any slots at all), and there's specifically a list of which stuff doesn't work with what. The autoweight is hella good, but it also doesn't stack with the other Big Ticket recoil reducers (gyromount, tripods) because it basically is that item, just worse because its small and portable.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 22 2011, 05:29 AM

Well the thing is in BF or FA you don't fire shots, you fire bursts, short long or full, so the RC from the first and second shot cannot apply.

I don't whine about balance, I even always thought that the auto-adjusting weight was pretty ineffective, but I just don't see it as giving up to 4 RC with how the rule is written.

I know and I don't dispute that, I even wrote that in other threads before.

Except of course for called shots by RAW. Which can be used on BF short bursts but not on FA short bursts. Strangely whether the burst is wide or narrow has no bearing on whether you can call a shot or not.

Posted by: CanRay May 22 2011, 05:33 AM

19th Century: "One good shot is better than six bad ones."

20th Century: "Three good shots is better than thirty bad ones."

21st Century: "Empty the belt."

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 22 2011, 05:41 AM

I need to find that chart showing average amount of rounds expended per kill in wars over the decades.




-k

Posted by: CanRay May 22 2011, 05:43 AM

Single-shot meant a heavy impetus to "One shot, one kill".

Repeater weapons took a bit away from that.

Semi-Automatic, moreso.

Full Auto in every soldier's hands... Oh man, did the brass ever start to fly!

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 22 2011, 06:05 AM

I think it's pretty clear: 2 RC for any burst (short, long, full), 1/2 for SA. It's written badly, yes; what else is new?

If it just said flat 2 RC, it'd be basically the same, right? I'm not sure how '1 on the first shot, 2 the second' is a meaningful mechanic in the first place.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 22 2011, 06:26 AM

Just as meaningful as any other recoil compensator. They all give 1-x RC on the first shot, which is absolutely unnecessary since the first shot does not incur a penalty for recoil.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 22 2011, 06:31 AM

Exactly. Except this one (for some reason) says so.

Posted by: CanRay May 22 2011, 06:33 AM

Bah, RC isn't everything. I mean, is your Assault Rifle have all the features of the http://youtu.be/XvRdwT5F2Cg?

Posted by: Udoshi May 22 2011, 07:21 AM

This would be the 'first bullet is free' mechanic i mentioned.

The second burst in a phase always has 1 more RC. Second short is -3, second long is -6 instead of -5. Full bursts don't have a second burst penalty because its not possible to fire more than one.

.... seriously, you guys don't know this by now?

THAT rule is why the auto-weight is worded as it is, because its supposed to specifically negate that penalty. With a weight, The second burst is just as accurate as the first one.

Posted by: Mäx May 22 2011, 09:17 AM

If your firing burst fire, then there is no first or second shot, only first and second burst.
So no you don't get both of those bonuses at the same time.

Posted by: Falconer May 22 2011, 02:20 PM

Recoil and (recoil comp) is always cumulative across the entire IP by the rules. If you had 2 SMG's w/ no RC and fired a short burst from each in each hand... the uncompensated recoil from the first gun, would still carry over to the second gun. But this is one of the common mistakes new players and people who don't read the rules closely make, and apply RC separately in full to each short burst.


All it's saying is if I have an automatic... and I'm firing 3 round bursts bursts it's less effective on the first short burst (long bursts need FA). Autoadjusting weight + stock for example.

Recoil is equal to number of bullets fire so far that pass -1. (do the math on the charts...this perfectly describes how the charts are done).

First 3rd burst... 3 bullets need 2 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(1) == 2
Second 3rd burst, 6 bullets need 5 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(2) == 3... so you still have a -2 penalty.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 22 2011, 03:39 PM

Sorry Udoshi, I don't understand your 'first is free' point. Everyone knows the first bullet doesn't count, but I don't know why you keep mentioning it. Are you saying that the the AAW *does* apply to multiple bursts, despite it saying 'shot'? Are you further saying that the writers were just trying to make both bursts similarly bad (despite Falconer's example)?

If so, it still doesn't really make sense over a nice clean '2 RC all the time', which was my question.

Posted by: whatevs May 22 2011, 04:28 PM

In the end I went with the AK-98 (old faithful). I know I could have maxed stats a little better with the ares alpha, but I use sr4a and the picture for the Alpha just looks soooo stupid. I also stayed away from smg's and machine pistols (for now) because this selection really doesn't have any concealability requirements. And as it turns out, there isn't RAW about bigger weapons in small places and my GM doesn't plan to be that detail driven.

AK-98 (RC5)

Mods:
Additional Clip, Foregrip, Gas Vent 3, Smartgun System

My biggest problem with mods was that I didn't read the smartgun/tacnet descriptions thoroughly. They did a lot of the things I was using other slots for. Additional clip, Gas3 and smartgun were all easy choices. I didn't originally add foregrip because I figured the underbarrel grenade launcher on the AK98 wouldn't allow it. In the end, I couldn't find RAW for it. If anyone has RAW for this, please holla' with a book/page ref.

Accessories:
No Slot: Airburst Link, Shock Pad, Sling
Under Slot: <Left Empty on purpose, seemed like it would overlap with foregrip/unbarrel grenade launcher>
Barrel Slot: Sound Suppressor (when equipped)
Top Slot: Flashlight: Low-Light

I was always going to take the Airburst Link and the sling. Having a Sound Supressor around is always a good idea. And I took the shock pad just for the recoil comp. The flashlight is kind of a guilty pleasure. Really like the idea of having it for total darkness scenarios. I'll even discuss converting it to have a strobe option with my GM.

Thanks to everyone for all the awesome suggestions. They were all either right on the money or pointed me in a direction to choose what I needed. Much appreciated.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 22 2011, 05:03 PM

Shock Pads and slings aren't cumulative with each other due to the recoil restrictions listed on pg. 148 of Arsenal, so I'm afraid you're stuck at 4 recoil compensation with that setup. Since you dislike the flavor of using the Alpha, I'd suggest swapping the internal smartlink to an external one and replacing the shock pad with the dirt cheap personalized grip mod.

Posted by: Falconer May 22 2011, 05:16 PM

Okay point here... gas vents and suppressors are incompatible w/ each other. Not big, but if you're using the suppressor you lose 3 points of RC. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can't switch between them like you can switch between fire modes. But nowhere does it say otherwise either... so talk to your GM and see how he plays it. (I tend to go with it's something you can select... as there are guns w/ both suppression and gas vent built into it like the Smartgun X)

Generally if the gun has a secondary weapon built into it. Generally I've found people don't consider it to eat up the underbarrel accessory slot... though they'll balk at adding a 2nd underbarrel weapon to the same one. But again, just make sure your GM doesn't have an issue.

Nice thing about the basic AK-97 (sans GL) is it's exceptionally easy to get and won't raise many red flags (it's the 'F' rating and obviousness of the GL which make them problematic)... and easy to throw away because of the low cost. Basic accessories to handle recoil don't add a lot...

Posted by: Mäx May 22 2011, 05:23 PM

Actually arsenal moding section has rules for this, the gas vent must be turned of the get the benefit form the supressor taking a simple action or free if it's a smartgun.

Posted by: whatevs May 22 2011, 05:30 PM

Hmm... Looking at my copy of AR (148) and it states the following:

AR148: 'Recoil compensation from an auto-adjusting weight, bipod, foregrip, gyromount, sling, tripod, or underbarrel weight are not cumulative with each other (except that the compensation from a foregrip and sling can be combined into an overall recoil compensation of 2).'

So I guess that means that I had the 5rc without the shock pad afterall. Unless the 'overall recoil compensation of 2' means that no other recoil modifiers can be added to that combination, and my Gas-Vent3 no longer applies... although that interpretation seems too strict to me.

Gas 3 = 3rc
Foregrip + Sling = 2rc

Like the idea of the personalized grip.

Posted by: whatevs May 22 2011, 05:32 PM

Good to know. This is the stuff I seem to miss. Thanks.

AR 152

Posted by: whatevs May 22 2011, 06:07 PM

Here's round 2:

AK-98 (RC6)

Mods: Additional Clip, Foregrip, Gas Vent 3, Personalized Grip

Accessories:
No Slot: Airburst Link, Sling
Under Slot: Flashlight - Lowlight
Top Slot: External SmartGun
Barrell: Sound Supressor (when equipped)

Posted by: whatevs May 22 2011, 08:26 PM

Makes sense. Qick question: is the tacnet software anywhere in chummer? Did i miss it?

Posted by: Mäx May 22 2011, 08:31 PM

Unwired page 124-->

Posted by: Raiki May 22 2011, 08:41 PM

I can't speak as to what would be 'best', but if your game is Pink Mohawk enough for it, I can attest that an underbarrel bola launcher + a monfilament bola = a lot of fun.


~R~

Posted by: longbowrocks May 22 2011, 08:54 PM

Totally forgot about those. Win. Except for the (IIRC) exotic ranged weapon requirement.

Posted by: Raiki May 22 2011, 09:15 PM

Honestly, for a monofilament bola, net hits really aren't that important. Defaulting to agility (hopefully high) will more than get the job done. That's how my ganger character did it anyway, it's more 'street' that way.


Just don't glitch.



~R~

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 22 2011, 09:39 PM

While I think you're probably right about this, it's still a shoddy system, and I can understand where the confusion comes from.

I, for instance, would be inclined to read it like this:

First burst: Stock +weight=2; No Recoil penalty.
Second burst, totalling previous recoil to 0 and removing previously used stuff: Just the weight again for 2, because it says so, resulting in a -1 penalty. At least that way you get a total of 3 points for the ridiculous number of mod slots this thing takes.

They should have stuck just totalling the RC and ticking it off while you are shooting.

Posted by: Loch May 22 2011, 09:42 PM

While we have this lovely gun thread here, what's the deal with the HK-227X and the Ingram Smartgun X? It looks to me as though the Ingram comes with a lot more nice toys on it, and for 150 less than the HK, I don't understand why you wouldn't rather have the Ingram if you want an SMG for discreet operations.

Posted by: CanRay May 22 2011, 09:59 PM

Yeah, because nothing says "Discrete" like a hail of bullets.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 22 2011, 09:59 PM

Yeah, I was just skimming, tbh. I saw Shockpad+sling and my brain said "No go" but didn't otherwise check your math. Oops.




Because "a lot" is an exaggeration; all it has over the 227-X is a gas vent 2 system that many people would replace with a Gas Vent 3 and a magazine that holds 4 more rounds than that of the 227-X. Unfortunately, however, the Ingram isn't capable of semi-automatic fire and thus it's tougher to conserve ammo or limit recoil than it is with a GV3 accessorized 227-X. So as far as corebook SMGs go, the 227-X is actually most flexible SMG available. The Praetor from Arsenal beats either gun in a head-on comparison once fully tricked out but it lacks a smartlink and has an 11F Availability, so quickly replacing an accessorized one is trickier. Now, if you want to talk about SMGs that don't have a reason to live, I'd point to the Ingram Warrior-10; it costs the same as an AK-97 Carbine but lacks the Full Auto or detachable folding stock.

Posted by: whatevs May 23 2011, 12:27 AM

This weapon selection was more about what I'd want to use if I was on an out and out raid, where I didn't have to worry about availability/concealability/deniability. You make a great point though. I put together a ak97 build that was half the cost (1400 total), with only detachable accessories, so I could remove them if I really wanted to ditch the gun. I lost out on a few things by doing it (additional clip mod, flashlight, sound supressor, gl), but I kept 5rc and basically had a disposable weapon.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 23 2011, 03:10 PM

For some reason, I never thought much about the HK 227-X. I'm not sure it's better than the Ingram Smartgun X though. For 150Y and 4 less rounds in a clip, you get a SA firing mode. Since automatic fire is where it's at in SR, BF is better or as good than SA in almost all cases due to wide bursts. Off the shelf the Ingram is better, but who uses off the shelf firearms anyways?

Overall though, the Praetor is the best SMG until you get the 11 RC for a Supermach 100. Stick and Shocks don't care about base DV of your firearm, but they do care about a second long burst per IP.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 03:29 PM

I Like the unmodified Ingram Smartgun X... Its cheap, effective and is the Street Samurai's Best Friend.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 23 2011, 04:02 PM

a) it is not an assault rifle and b) it gets even better with mods.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 05:38 PM

True... Not sure how we ended up with an SMG in an AR Thread, but there you go...

Posted by: Whipstitch May 23 2011, 06:27 PM

Whatever. People demonstrably quit caring about just assault rifles by the second post, and that probably goes double since the OP picked out his AR. Anyway, overall, I'd call the Smartgun X or the Praetor my favorite SMG. But if I'm going to install a GV3 anyway a 3rd firing mode for 150 nuyen is kinda nice. After all, with 3 passes a Samurai can expect to burn through a magazine by the end of their second combat turn if limited to short bursts and my GM doesn't really run ammo spigot type games.

Posted by: sabs May 23 2011, 06:33 PM

I love Ingram X, because they get all these cool add ons, while still having 6 modification slots. If you want to stack the goodies, the Ingram X, and the White Knight are both lovely pieces of hardware.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 23 2011, 08:59 PM

The best part is, they all use the same skill!

Gunnery!






-k

Posted by: Udoshi May 23 2011, 09:10 PM

Riggers Represent!

Ballistic +2 is the best spec.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 23 2011, 09:12 PM

When you start rigging your own body it gets even better.

Posted by: CanRay May 24 2011, 02:48 AM

Well, some people have talked about militarizing the Drones I wrote up.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 24 2011, 03:10 AM

I've frequently heard about using MBW for this. Is there an optional rule about that somewhere? Because I didn't see it in the gear description.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 24 2011, 03:18 AM

No, there's not. At best, it's a GM-ruled (that is, house rules) extension of the biodrone/cyberware hacking rules.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 24 2011, 03:35 AM

So then rigging yourself... You need to make a cluster out of your cyberware, and even then it's not actually supported?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 24 2011, 04:18 AM

There are a couple different combinations. The simplest is a human version of the full-VR biodrone harness. It's rare, expensive (and invasive) tech, and this is 'the book doesn't actually say it doesn't work on humans' territory. But at least there are rules for it, sort of.

Another contender is full-cyber body, and control it with the (super-vague) cyberware hacking 'rules'. Honestly, I'm not convinced you could even walk under this method, let alone 'rig' yourself. Still, it's not against the rules to move individual limbs via Issue Command, so it's at least trivially possible.

The weakest idea is the one you mentioned: that somehow having MBW lets your control the whole body. It's based on not the wired reflexes aspect, but the skillwires aspect. The idea is skillsofts can do anything, so therefore hacking skillwires must let you control everything. … Quickly, conveniently, and accurately. *shrug* This is pure house rule, IMO.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 24 2011, 07:30 AM

Actually I meant the simple (but unattainable) way of the jarhead.

Posted by: CanRay May 24 2011, 08:21 AM

Isn't that the Ultimate Way Of The Burnout?

Posted by: Faraday May 24 2011, 09:01 AM

I want a white knight constructed as a gatling gun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 01:00 PM

It's called the GE Vindicator Minigun...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 24 2011, 01:11 PM

No it's not. He want's to get the GasVent 5 from the White Knight on a Minigun and still be able to mod it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 01:13 PM

Actually, it is... Can't have GV's on a Miniguy, that is what a Gyromount is for (and better RC to boot)...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 24 2011, 01:27 PM

One does not exclude you from using the other. GasVents can be installed in machine guns. A machine gun constructed as a minigun does not cease to be a machine gun.
So yes a White Knight constructed as a minigun has 5 RC base, combine that with a gyro mount, personalized grip, shock pad and a heavy barrel, you are only at -2 for the shot. Now not only suppressive fire is viable with an infantry minigun.
Still I'd say mount it on a steel lynx and save money

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 01:34 PM

Miniguns are NOT machine guns (even if they class them as such in the game)... they function on a compledtely different system.
I would squash that line of reasoning like a bug (Modding a White knight with its RC), personally.
And Yes, I would put it on a Steel Lynx as well. No recoil and Totally badass suppressive fire. An infantry man cannot carry enough ammunition for it to be truly useful.

Besides, you do not need all that crap for Infantry Use, as its only real use is going to be as a Suppressive Weapon. There is no recoil modifier for Suppressive Fire.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 24 2011, 01:45 PM

I know. Still I don't see why you couldn't a) put a gas vent on each barrel or b) put a gas vent in front of the firing barrel. The latter ould howver have the same problems as revolvers and silencers.
Me to. I was just using RAW. The other part of RAW however is that such a weapon only exists by GM Fiat, as PCs cannot construct weapons, they can only mod. As such this beast will never see the light of day.

With RL suppressive fire yes, with SR suppressive fire not so much. Dropping prone makes you immune and does not hinder you from shooting back. And the minigun can't even surprise the opposition.

Posted by: sabs May 24 2011, 02:25 PM

Why can't I just angle my machine gun downwards 5 degrees and kill the prone guys who can now not even dodge?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 24 2011, 02:26 PM

Because the rules say so. Also for all but very near shots (IIRC <5m) being prone is beneficial and not detrimental to the target.

Posted by: Squinky May 24 2011, 02:39 PM

Once you start directing your fire, I guess it is more like a wide burst than suppressive.

Posted by: Mäx May 24 2011, 05:57 PM

You can, its called wide burst

Posted by: CanRay May 24 2011, 08:56 PM

I wonder if Trolls turn their Gatling Guns sideways when shooting them "To look cool".

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 10:11 PM

*Shakes Head in Amazement*

Posted by: Raiki May 24 2011, 11:43 PM

Of course they do. Or at least the real trolls do.

Trog Life!


~R~

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 25 2011, 03:44 PM

Hmmm, if only a Stirrup Interface left you with enough brains to rig yourself...