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Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 05:14 PM

Alright, so for my character this summer, I chose longarms with a specialization in sniper rifles, just because I like sniper rifles and they have nice damage.

I have three situations I want to be able to handle:
A. Fighting common thugs, runners, and such. Just a standard fight in standard conditions.
Priority here is to kill as many guys per IP as possible.
B. Being armed under high security. Getting by scanners and cavity checks and the like, while still having the potential to kill people from a distance.
C. The GM gets fed up with me or overestimates our group, and sends in a dragon or huge tanks.

Unfortunately, sniper rifles are not optimal for any of these cases, although they do pretty well in A and C. On the other hand, damage with the rifle will be within expected bounds, and there are things in the books that I can't kill (since I'm spreading my stats thin on infiltration, social, and guns). I just don't want to drop sniping.

For my secondary weapon skill, I'm looking at throwing or pistols.
Pistols will allow me to get holdouts, which are pretty good for concealability, and can be upgraded with all those nifty weapon mods that are so prolific in these books.
Throwing will open up very concealable weapons, the ability to use whatever may be lying around, and grenades, which will allow me to reign in enclosed areas (chunky salsa). On the other hand, that closes off all the weapon mods, which might conceivably make holdouts better.

What's bugging me even more is that automatics for A, and heavy weapons for absolute C would be perfectly optimal, but B blows that plan out of the water (even if I get a submachine gun and load it up with concealability modifiers).

Argh, No! In short, I'm definitely sticking with longarms for my primary(even though grenade launchers are a great way to get around a great dragon's "reroll hits" ability). What do you guys think my secondary weapon skill should be?

Posted by: Dez384 May 15 2011, 05:24 PM

It would be better and make for a more well rounded character to just take the firearms group. You can break the group and specialize with sniper rifles after your first run.

You may want to learn how to use clubs; hitting people with weapons uses the club skills.

Posted by: Ryu May 15 2011, 05:45 PM

A => Under standard conditions, the weapon has to be available and effective.
B => The weapon has to be concealable.
C => The weapon needs to rank high against exceptionally strong targets.

I rate a sniper rifle to fulfill C under many circumstances, but neither A (raising eyebrows on a shopping spree) or B (size). A weapon planed for C can not at the same time be the main tool of the character, since the GM will not bring the usual suspects.

Consider:
A => Sports Rifle (with Spec.)
B => Taser or largest possible pistol
C => Sniper Rifle / Combat Shotgun

So Longarms/Pistols. Throwing weapons are hard to conceal in larger quantities.

Posted by: Halflife May 15 2011, 05:49 PM

Throwing Mastery Adept = DEADLY POCKET LINT


But yes, Pistols are awesome for concealability. Especially with weapon mods. If you are going for distance make sure you pick up the Magnification for your cybereyes/glasses. Ignoring range penalties will get you as far as your pistol can go.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 05:57 PM

Thanks for the point on quantity of throwing weapons. I actually didn't think of that.

As for A, I was thinking more along the lines of "kill a lot of guys fast" not "won't draw attention" since that kind of fits under B. Sports rifles are SS mode (whereas snipers are SA), and I don't want to have to use mod slots to cover weaknesses unless all other aspects of the weapon really shine.

Last but not least, I wouldn't do a group. If I don't have at least 12 dice in a skill, I try not to use it. Combat is especially rigorous since you die if you waste too many shots.

Sounds like pistols are the secondary unless someone else has suggestions.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 06:05 PM

Indeed, but I need to kill a large number of adepts before I can get over my inferiority complex enough to actually play one (also I have 0.36 essence on my build right now).

Maybe if I get krav maga with the "take aim is a free action" advantage, but I really just need the pistol for secured meetings and such. Everyone will be in the room with me, so no need to spend too much time aiming.

Posted by: Dez384 May 15 2011, 06:14 PM

4 dice from skill group
6 dice from agility
2 dice smartlink
Total of 12 dice; easy to do.


Also, almost any gun plus sticknshock ammo. Sure you only do 6S, but they get the detriment of electric damage if you even just touch them and you negate half of their ammo. Good for pesky things like dragons who have hardened armor.

Posted by: Ryu May 15 2011, 06:21 PM

You need two shots from either weapon to take a standard target out. What is your optimal mod loadout for a Sniper Rifle?


As for your argument against groups, look at high agility chars. You might be happy with Muscle Aug/Toner 2+Suprathyroid Gland (Restricted gear) on top of Agility 5. You´ll love it to death using karmagen.

Posted by: Summerstorm May 15 2011, 06:26 PM

Whoa, whoa... all that powergaming. That is a harsh rule. You won't use a skill unless you rank under "At least national master or heavily augmented level"? Whoa... really? I have played characters actively helping in combat with a skill of 2 (but a good augmented agility of 5). It works. Even IF you go against wildly fast or intensly armoured foes you still bring down their passive defenses (cost them dodge dice and/or action for full dodges).

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 06:44 PM

I'm to used to watching our hacker flounder about with 12 dice in his dominant skill.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 07:07 PM

I generally have an attacking dice pool larger than my enemies reaction+body+armor, and the base damage of my sniper rifle is around the number of physical boxes they have. This game is so close to being OKO with every weapon anyway, why bother with two hits?
I want to go for the barett, but for now I'm using an HK PSG enforcer. Definitely need a smartgun system, chameleon coating to go with my armor, some RC stuff, then maybe some of the super power mods and accessories (firing selection). I'm still deciding, but I don't want to waste any mod slots.

Suprathyroid gland is going to need to wait a while due to my low essence, but it is a favorite of mine. I've considered a high AGI character who can default on every AGI skill and still beat the pros, but I want to be a bit more balanced for now.
If you're wondering, it's elf + enhanced attrib + metagenetic improvement + toner 4 + suprathyroid = 15 AGI.

I just... don't want skill groups. I'll review the math again, but that wasted point is going to bug mEEEee?! Whoa, I've been misunderstanding how skill groups worked this whole time! I might do just that.
I used to think that you had to start buying from zero for a single skill even if you had a skill group for it.

Posted by: ravensoracle May 15 2011, 07:10 PM

I would recommend taking heavy weapons and use a MGL-6 and a Airburst Link. It gets a little pricey with ammo but can fit all the roles you want. It also gives you great versatility with the variety of grenade types that can be loaded into it.

A) A grenade is effective against groups of targets. Most of your lower level targets will be made effective by fighting in large numbers. The variety of ammo available from frag/HE to Chem/Gas make it a well rounded choice.

B)The MGL-6 is listed a pistol-version of the MGL-12 so I am making an assumption here but would say it is most likely the size of a heavy pistol. Not as concealable as a hold-out but much better than a Sniper Rifle.

C)This thing fires grenades... nuff said.

As an added bonus your heavy weapons skill for this can apply to larger Heavy weapons giving you a greater chance to play the tactical support role in addition to you job as a sniper.

Posted by: Halflife May 15 2011, 07:17 PM

That seems like someone is getting unfairly harshed on. I know with my hacker rolled around for most of the campaign with 10-14 dice and did just fine.

Posted by: Ryu May 15 2011, 07:20 PM

Single-shot takeouts require a net DV of 10. Body 4 + Armor 8 + Reaction 3 is already 15 dice. Two hits against that are an almost guranteed kill, a single one will likely maim.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 07:21 PM

How can you possibly type ammo when you mean armor?
Anyway, sounds good for holdouts. I'm just hesitant to use the full rules for electricity damage since that means the GM will use them on me too, and I would need to pour points into BOD and WIL if I want to reliably beat a threshold of 3.

Posted by: Halflife May 15 2011, 07:21 PM

Non-conductivity is your friend

Bod+Will+Impact/2+Non-conductive = 12 dice = 3 bought hits if they are all average

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 07:23 PM

Dang! I didn't think of the grenade pistol.
Why aren't snipers tactical support?

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 07:24 PM

Ah, missed the part about it not just being BOD+WIL.

Posted by: ravensoracle May 15 2011, 07:25 PM

Snipers are tactical support but are not optimal for every situation. Sometimes it is better to have a machine gun or other heavy weapon in that support role. To clarify heavy weapons expands your usefulness as tactical support.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 07:29 PM

~eh~
Maybe I have a skewed view of "successful". I build characters to have a very high success rate in what they do. That is, when I'm not using my logic 1 troll's 6 edge on every other test to prove to my team that 1 edge is a waste.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 07:31 PM

Yep. pretty much. any assault cannon, or any sniper + high caliber will do that, especially with DP 20.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 15 2011, 07:34 PM

Your demands are unreasonable. But, the answer is simple: throwing is worthless for your needs. Pistols are *the* concealable sidearm.

As an unrelated comment, grenades (thrown or launched) are great, and you really don't need a huge DP. They're grenades; just get them close. I assume the MGL-6 is either too bulky to conceal, or at *least* Machine Pistol size, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have one anyway.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 07:36 PM

I got some great advice here, and even learned something new. Thanks everyone!

Posted by: ravensoracle May 15 2011, 07:42 PM

I could agree with machine pistol sized for the MGL-6. I would definitely say it is no smaller than a heavy pistol for those that want to argue that it is described as the "pistol-version." That is the problem when it doesn't outright say it. My guess would be it is somewhere around heavy to machine pistol in size by the pic in the book.

Posted by: Glyph May 15 2011, 08:52 PM

Grenades are awesome (and I love the pistol one), but they have two main drawbacks:

1) Being able to affect an area, and potentially more than one target, is great, but it also means that they are kind of indiscriminate in their damage. Not the go-to tool for a jumble of combatants, a hostage situation, or when civilians are in the line of fire.

2) Grenades are like assault rifles - you use one, and you attract lots and lots of the wrong kind of attention. Like, a SWAT team, instead of a squad car.


One other note: while it is not the most optimal choice, purely concealability-wise, a short-barreled Defiance T-250 is, for all intents and purposes, basically a heavy pistol that uses the longarms skill.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 09:13 PM

Well, 2 higher on concealability, but yeah, pretty close.

Has anyone else noticed that "concealability" gets redlined by the dumpshock spell-checker?

Posted by: ravensoracle May 15 2011, 09:34 PM

Grenades may not be the best choice in a situation but it does cover what he was wanting to cover with some flexibility when it comes to ammunition choice.

Posted by: Udoshi May 15 2011, 09:41 PM

An alternative to a pistol may be a Gyrojet Pistol. Its basically the exact same stats as a heavy pistol. The downside is that its an Exotic, which blows.

There are two upsides. One is that it not only works underwater, it works better underwater. The second is that Gyrojet ammo, being rockets, can also be missiles or take seeker warheads so you can fire them indirectly, or possibly a sensor rating. Their ammo is a little pricier, but if you make or tweak your own with Hardware/Armorer, then its actually affordable. The idea being, if you can fire around corners, then you don't need to spend as many shots because you have surprise.


Probably not worth it, but i thought I'd toss it out there.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 15 2011, 09:44 PM

Lol. A pistol that eats structures for breakfast.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 03:05 AM

That is just... Wow... Are you serious?

Posted by: longbowrocks May 16 2011, 03:14 AM

You use skills with fewer dice? Maybe our hacker was just unlucky, but we almost had to scrape him off the pavement every meet (electronic pavement, in the matrix).

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 03:16 AM

I dunno if 500¥+ per shot is 'a little pricier'. I'm also not sure if Seeker heads let you shoot around corners, when not applied to a missile (which are insane expensive). On a rocket, I think they just let you add hits to your otherwise possible shot: you have to be within range, have 'blind LOS' (that is, a reasonable path, though possibly through a light wall), etc. Plus, you're taking a -6, bleh. I agree with your original assessment: not worth it.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 16 2011, 03:22 AM

Use ultra-wide band radar!

Posted by: Whipstitch May 16 2011, 05:56 AM

If this build is a mundo and doesn't have anything thing as sexy as Initiation grades to aspire to I'd recommend just cheaply spackling over the concealment problem with karma rather than blowing a whole mess of BP. After all, a bog standard 7 agility samurai only needs a single skill rank, a smartlink and a specialization to be pretty handy with a stick 'n' shock loaded Morrissey Élan and an improved range finder will let you fire up to 15 meters before you start hitting any penalties and you can afford all of that after a successful run or two easy. Is that impressive? Gods, no. But as a compliment to the chameleon coated T-250 you hide under your Lined Coat whip-it sling style it's a pretty damn nice luxury.

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 06:17 AM

Situation A: A pair of Viper Sliverguns in concealable/quick-draw holsters, as they have decent concealability (+0) and a non-terrible range combined with rather effective (better than a SMG) and SOUND SUPPRESSED firepower. They're also legal to carry with a permit. Recoil can be tricky to manage if you just use one at a time. The ammo is also kinda expensive. Also, modding one to full-auto is relatively simple, which opens up suppressive fire.

Situation B: Any taser. My favorite is Defiance EX Shocker with a laser sight on top. Legal to carry, no permit required. It's only SS mode for firing, but that gives you a little time to aim and then shoot to help conserve ammo. Generally a simple action to take aim, a free action to call a shot, and then second simple to fire. It's also effective in melee and packs a heavier punch than almost any other non-heavy weapon.

Situation C: Heavy weapons. If you need to do as much damage as you can as quickly as you can to a heavily-armored target, this is the go-to skill if you aren't in a vehicle.

Posted by: Elfenlied May 16 2011, 07:21 AM

Do you have access to the German print of the Arsenal? If so, you'll have access to the Altmayr SP, a pistol-sized shotgun that uses the longarms skill. You can't silence it, but slap on SA firemode, and you have something that packs a punch.

Failing that, my suggestion would be pistols. A Morrissey Elan gets past MAD scanners, and it still deals 8P if you use a called shot. This is ideal for situation B. For situation A, get either a modded-out Ruger Super Warhawk or a Ruger Thunderbolt. The revolver can be modded to SA with 8(cy), and has a high base damage. Upgrade the Thunderbolt with an additional clip, and expand both of them, and slap on SA/FA mode (remember, they both only cost 1 slot each).

Posted by: Mäx May 16 2011, 10:19 AM

For a conselable weapon, Fichetti Tiffani Needler hold-out has pretty damm nice damage code for such a small weapon (8P(f ) AP+5).

Posted by: Udoshi May 16 2011, 12:33 PM

I believe its 500 per 10, actually, since gyrojet ammo doesn't come in stacks of 1. Which

.... if your gm rules otherwise, yeah, absolutely not worth it.

Using Information Guided attacks with a smartlink instead of Indirect Fire makes it a bit better, because you can take a second to lock-on to someone before firing. Thats only a -4, you can a +2 from your smartlink, you get net hits to the actual attack, and its a simple action, so you can lock-on and fire in one pass.
Better yet, you can make an info-guided lock-on using a smartlink, using your ranged combat dice pool instead of what you use for a sensor test. I think thats sensor+perception-signature.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 01:46 PM

Indeed I do...

Lets see.

My Current 300+ Point character (Cyberlogician) has 82 Skills, and most of the rolls are from 7-11 Dice. Only in his Hacking and Pistol skills are they generally greater than 12 dice. Hacking/Electronics rolls are at 14-15 Dice, Pistols is at 14 Dice. Situational Modifiers apply of course, and are not included here. Has an Edge of 2 and Bad Luck.

My Current Magician Character is throwing 10-11 Dice for Specialty Spellcasting/Ritual Casting (Manipulation Spells), 9 Dice for Drain (11 for his Limited Spells), and 10 Dice for Influence Skills. Almost all Other skills are between 8-10 dice. Has an Edge of 3.

My Ganger origin character only has his Piloting Rolls above 10, everything else is 10 or less, generally less (in the 6-9 range). Also a Low Edge (2 or 3, I believe)

Most of the reasons the dice pools are low is that I like to follow the guidelines in the Skill Table. If my character cannot be classified as a Professional or better in a skill, he does not have a skill greater than 2. If he is Professional, then he gets a 3. Etcetera... This helps to self limit the craziness of the dice pools. Not everyone in the group does this, but I do. Of course, once play begins, skill progression happens as characters receive more exposure and training in the skill. As a result of this philosophy, my characters tend to be well rounded characters, with a fair amount of skills. I know that not everyone on Dumpshock agrees with this philosophy.

I have found that it is often better to offset penalties in some way than it is to just pile on the bonuses. We have also recently begun experimenting with capping bonuses as well, so there is less incentive to just pile on the bonuses. Will let you know how that one works out. I personally do not like it (not that I pile on bonuses willy nilly), but the GM wants to cut down on the craziness of dice pools (not that they are all tha crazy, mind you), and he likes this method. May work, may not. It is in testing.

As for the Topic... I like Pistols for their better concealability and their many options.

Posted by: Mäx May 16 2011, 02:12 PM

I really don't understand why, as that table is totally idiotic, how can you make desriptions of how good someone is at a given think based on somethink that's usually less then half of the dicepool for any given task.
Makes no sense what so ever, they really should have tripled all the numbers before the desriptions and say those are total dicepools, no matter how you get to them.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 02:32 PM

Udoshi, if you're using info-guided, you don't need Seeker heads (or gyrojet) at all. I don't see why the seeker electronics would cost less just because you buy the gyrojet rockets in packs of 10, though. If anything, they should cost more for miniaturization. That said, 50¥+ per shot is pretty bad already.

Good point about the Indirect modifier, I misread. It's -4 for Info-Guided, -2 for Target Designated.

Posted by: Lantzer May 16 2011, 02:48 PM

I just assumed that the skills were paired with attributes of 3-4. Those are after all the average stats for an unaugmented human using 200 pts for stats.

Posted by: Fauxknight May 16 2011, 02:59 PM

The sniper rifle covers most of your basics, shot for shot its pretty much the best kill out there, the only thing you need besides that is a conceal weapon. Take a Defiance T250 from Arsenal in the short barrel version and add a sling, at that point it has the concealability, range, and damage of a heavy pistol in a concealable holster but uses the long arms skill. No it won't stand up to a body cavity search, but get the ceramic component mod and the easy breakdown mod if you really want to hide it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 03:16 PM

Because those are the rules (or Fluff, in this case)... And I have absolutely no issue with them like most others do.
I guess it is a style thing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 03:17 PM

Which is not a bad assumption. In fact, it is the valid one per the rules.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 16 2011, 03:35 PM

Callling an interpretation valid there hits me as kinda weird given that the stuff you're talking about boils down to a table of incredibly vague demographics rather than rules.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 03:44 PM

It also gives us DP 11 for 'best in world', which is crazy. The table should obviously be at least doubled (quick and dirty), or rejiggered/disregarded entirely (better solution).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 04:09 PM

Everyone has their opinions...
Besides, Best in the World would be a Dice Pool of 16... 7 for Skill, 7 for Attribute, plus 2 for Specialty. Seems pretty good to me.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 04:24 PM

Now you're bringing Attribute into it? I thought the 'valid assumption' was 3-4 in everything?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 04:44 PM

Well, you said BEST IN THE WORLD... Best in the world assumes that your Attributes are also BEST, otherwise you are not Best in the World. Skill wise you are at the top of your game, but attribute wise you still have room to improve. See, you have an actual range of 0-16 dice to indicate relative competence across humanity. Skill 0 and Stat 1, to Skill 7, Stat 7 and a Specialty. With that assumption in mind, the Skill chart works just fine. With Average humanity falling into Skill 3-4 and Stat 3-4, you have 6-8 Dice + Specialty for their Professional Rankings. Which is the Valid Assumption.

And within that Skill 3-4 range, you still have someone who is professional, but just barely so (Stat1, for 4-5 Dice + Specialty) to someone who is a Sheer Genius at something, yet does not put a lot of effort into it beyond professional competence (Stat 7, for 10-11 Dice + Specialty).

Whay is that such a problem?

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 05:19 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
That's quite simple to answer.

The skill table is not "off". You can work quite fine with it. The problem is, that sticking to the skill table is not the Minmaxing route to go.
To increase a skill from 4 to 5 cost only 10 Karma. From 5 to 6 cost only 12 Karma.
6 in his main weapon skill is profitable for any sam. No matter if it would fit the description.

If higher skill would be more expensive you would not see them as often. For example if a attributes/skills would cost ("new value")²/3 you would not aim for 5 or 6.
Because no matter how often you tend to shoot things an additional dice is not worth 6*6/3*2=24 Karma
Espacially if a skill from 0 to 3 would only cost 3+3+6= 12 Karma
With ³ it would be even more obvious.
But with this linear cost progression it takes a while untill it won't pay off anymore.

If you could increase your skills without limites, when would you stop?
7 for 14 Karma.
8 for 16 Karma.
9 for 18 Karma.
10 for 20 Karma.
11 for 22 Karma.
12 for 24 Karma.
etc.
My guess is it would be around 9 to 10 becaue the additional dice is not really making an impact anymore. And for this amount of Karma you could get a lot of other stuff. Same thing with Magic as it is.
Nobody thinks raising Magic to 10 or 11 is worth it in any way. (Expect for maybe free spirits)

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 05:23 PM

Aha, got you. You've just admitted that the skill table assumes matching attributes, which means just double everything on the list. I win.

The whole point is that the fluff ratings are DP-based, not skill based. That's always been the point.

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 05:30 PM

@Yerameyahu
As a matter of fact not.
The skill table messures the skills, not the attribute.
If you have the skill of Michael Jorden you do not have (from the game point of view) to have his strenght or endurance.
But naturally the two things should match.
So having a close combat skill of 7 and an agility of 1 is rule wise possible but it is not realistic.
Same thing goes for logic 1 and first aid 6.

As a matter of fact you coud introduce a rule like:
A skill may be as high as linked attribute(possibly minus 1).
(A lot of RPGs have rules like that to prevent such dump things like a hacker with Logic 1 but hacking 6)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 05:34 PM

Notice that I never said the Table was off Irion.
I fully support the Table. Completely.

As for when would you stop with no limits, I would think that 3rd Edition answered that for you. When you decided that you had reached a point of diminishing returns. I have seen many characters in 3rd Edition in the high teens (saw one with a 19, had one with an 18) for Skill levels, with continued advcancement planned, even then. I am not a fan of unlimited advancement. I squash it in its infancy, when I can. You want to be best in the world with a Skill, well, you know where you stand in Shadowrun. Skill 7. If you want to be the absolute BEST in the WORLD, well, your Stats better be maxed out as well. Does not hurt to have boosts to that dice pool, and offsets for those things that have offsets. Again, in Shadowrun, you know where that line is. In Shadowrun, 'ware ius for those who do not want to put in the time to get there naturally, or for those characters who want that edge against their contemporaries.

In my opinion. You can be at the top of your game and still not go crazy with DP's above 20. Hell, a maxed out Human can have a DP of 16 in anything and be the absolute best in the world. I am just not sure why everyone else thinks that that is just not good enough. Especially when your absolute best Opposition (Threat Rating 6, Tir Operative with DP's in the high Teens) isn't rocking DP's above 20 intrinsically. Everyone else claims it is because the characters are not designed optimally. I say that they are realistic.

Even you fall into the trap of bigger and better, as you indicated above. "The problem is, that sticking to the skill table is not the Minmaxing route to go." My question is why you want to go that route in the first place?

*shrug*

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 16 2011, 05:37 PM

Unless you're playing an adept or have a crazy STR score for some reason, I'll stay away from throwing weapons. Yeah you can smuggle your throwing knife and do Str/2+1 which will be like 3P (STR<=4). Or you could smuggle in a SnS holdout and do 6S. In the vast majority of cases (shooting a living thing), stun will be better and you get to do more of it.

I would second using the shortbarreled T-250 shotgun for moderate level conceal situations (such as working around the street or meeting people you may end up shooting) especially if you have high longarms skill rating. Something like this might be up your alley in terms of mods:

If that doesn't meet your needs, I would go with pistols. The Fubuki is an amazing light pistol and with SnS can meet requirements A and B.

As for C, the best thing is your own magical power (sorry!) or some sort of heavy weapon. Errata'd guass rifles are dangerously close to being able to piece mainline battle tanks without many successes. Airbursting anti-tank missiles 6 are worthwhile if they can hit. If the GM follows War!'s grenade autofire rules (bless his soul), then a FA grenade launcher will vaporize anything. To be fair, your APDS Barrett 121 with a called shot will hurt most things with a 13P -8 AP though so I'm not sure how much you have to worry about the heavy end. Unless the GM is really out to get you and you need more, there are bigger problems in general than your DV.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 05:38 PM

Irion, that's the point. The table is worthless, because it talks about skill, but it means DP. And Attrib+Skill isn't even throwing in DP mods, which are major. You can't ignore these aspects; the table does, which is why it's crap.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 05:40 PM

And yet there are those who disagree with that sentiment. Go Figure...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 05:47 PM

There's you. Hehe.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 06:02 PM

Heh... And several Others...

Posted by: Summerstorm May 16 2011, 06:15 PM

Yeah, hi guys. I am on Tymeaus side *g*.

People go overboard with skills/attributes in this system, because it is so easy (Even more so in standard BP creation), not because it is logical. In SR3 you could at least tell somebody with skill 8 or something: Yeah, you are pretty amazing... but SOMEWHERE out there is someone with 9. If that dude (somehow) raised his skill to 9... yeah: SOMEWHERE out there somebody has 10.... hey, maybe even 11.

The system took care of itself with openness and by not depending ONLY on massive amounts of dice. In SR4 you can pretty much do away your problems by just dropping a crapload of dice on it. That is one of the points making this all so weird. You don't NEED to stop and aim before you shoot anymore (to get your TN down to 7 or something)... you just have to be the WORLDS best shooter - like weirdly a crapton of people are in this CITY.

Posted by: Ryu May 16 2011, 06:25 PM

I consider it nice that the skill levels get a meaning on their own besides being a source of dice. Should you adhere to the table, your choice of skill levels determines much about your character. As for effectiveness, I prefer to raise linked attributes even under SR4A.

IMO the mechanically optimal skill level is usually 1 (+spec), 3-4 for stuff you use often. Ten karma for one more die is often not worth it. Agility 9 (easy after chargen), Skill 4, Spec, Smartlink is 17 dice, more than enough for most needs. If in doubt use a larger weapon.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 06:28 PM

I liked the SR3 skill system, because it had that built-in Attribute/Skill limiter (skills above Attrib cost more). The SR4 system is different, but I'm not saying worse. It's largely self-balancing (in theory), because it's big DPs against big DPs. What I *am* saying is that the skill/fluff table doesn't fit the game, and there's no reason for it to exist. When every player is better than 'world class', we know the table's wrong. When the difference between 'good' and 'god' is a measly +2 DP (sorry, 'skill'), we know the table's wrong.

That's it exactly, Ryu: you can perform at the top end with skills *not* in the top end. Outcome is effectiveness is 'skill'; in-game, there's (all but) zero difference between Agi 9 Skill 1 and Agi 1 Skill 9. People don't watch you shoot and say, 'wow, good thing your Agility is so high that it compensates for your low Skill!' They say, 'holy shit, you're good at shooting!'

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 06:28 PM

@Yerameyahu

No, it does not.
That would be very silly. Your dicepool depends on how the lights are, if you are tired etc.
And additional it says skills. So thats quite strait forwards anyhow.
Your argument strikes me as silly as well. Yes you can have a high skill and a low dicepool but this ain't realistic in any sense. So yes, the rules allow for silly builds and those silly builds do not seem to fit to the table. But hell, a guy with physics 7 and logic 1 does not fit at all.
You can't suggest that fluff applys to number abomination beyond any fluff.


Because "every" player is hitting at a skill level of 6.
Because it is a no brainer in BP and even with Karma the benefit outwights the investment. And so the GMs raise the thread level and so every player has to act like that.
There is no way the mage is able to counterspell with only 3 dices if every enemy spellcaster throws his powerballs with at least spellcasting 5.

(Which is not a requirement at all, since you could play the game with skills around 1 to 4 the same way.)

If you want to play by the table you have to stick with minimal karma rewards. (And now adepts and mages won't be the better ones)
So yes, down there the balance works quite good.
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Yes, I know. I was just unable to comunicate it.
My statement was only meant to clarify MY position not to act as a counter to yours. I just tried to answer your question.


I just tried to answer the question you posed.
Why are most people wanting to minmax in the first place?
Because it is so easy and not doing it would seem more like a choice or a failing than doing it.
If you build your first Sam you get your Firearm of choice 6 and maybe your athletic skill group 4, becaue you know you are though.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 06:36 PM

Your skill depends on those things just as much, Irion, because DP is the only thing you roll. There is (almost) no skill effect in the game. Your argument is silly. If the game was 'realistic' (sez you), then the chargen would enforce it. And I see nothing unrealistic about a skilled person born with low Agility, for example. However, that person would be less 'good at shooting' than someone with superlative Agility and less skill; by any reasonable perspective, the latter would be considered 'more skilled', more effective, more accomplished, more likely to succeed, by the fluff.

Outcome is all that matters, and that's not a crunch perspective. Your Lone Star supervisor doesn't care if you have a higher rating Firearms than Jenkins; he cares that Jenkins consistently outshoots you (genetics is unfair, I guess). Jenkins is the one rated 'professional', or 'expert', or whatever.

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 06:52 PM

@Yerameyahu

Give me one example of that!
(Well, in real life there is no agility attribute and some stuff the agility governs has actually nothing to do with shooting. So in real life a guy with the "gun related part" would be someone with shaking hands)

If you take an EX-sharpshooter who has parkinson disease now, you would have an example of high skill and low attribute.

But still you can't write rules for any known problem.
So it is better to give players liberty, even if some abuse it. (Whats the damage in that anyway?)
So yes to be really as good you need skill + attribute. But still the skill determins how well you know your way around this kind of stuff. (If you can't bring your skill to use thats something different)

But your conclusion I broke the system therefor the System is wrong strikes me as a bit strange.
(Yes you are right, that the system will break with higher Karma rewards. You can't build a SAM with 750+700 Karma while sticking to the tables. (Refering to attributes and skills)
So if you insist that combining strenght/Body/Agility 6 is wrong and two skill groups at 6 are wrong, then you can't build any high Karma character.

The problem here is only, that the skill table is right. Because the highest skill is 7.
So the best of the best will have a skill of 7.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 07:03 PM

You're kind of all over the place, so forgive my fragmented comments:

Inasmuch as the game can have 'real life' examples, low Agi/high Firearms is just someone who's practiced shooting more; yes, possibly an ex-great shooter (aging, disease, whatever), or just someone with less natural 'talent'. This really isn't the point, because you brought up 'realistic'.

There's no game effect of 'knowing your way around this stuff'. If anything, Agility is much more able to 'use something different' than any skill, especially because there's no 'default to related skill' in SR4.

I didn't say anything about you or anyone 'breaking' anything, AFAIK. I have no idea what the bit about karma is about.

The best possible shooter will have skill 7, yes. That doesn't mean, as the table implies, that having skill 7 means you're the best possible shooter. *That* is the point. This is basic logic, and you know it. DP comparison is what matters, because that's the only way performance is determined, and performance is the only way that 'proficiency' is determined.

So, at best, we can charitably say that the skill examples are people who *tend* to have about that level of skill (again, *not* that having that level of skill means that you're comparable to the example). If we actually wanted to do a real comparison, it would take into account the full DP (primarily Attrib+Skill, inc. augmentations).

Posted by: Irion May 16 2011, 07:31 PM

Thats exactly what it means.
Yes, you are able to build some examples which would contradict it, but so what?
The table is a guide line and not the holy truth.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 16 2011, 07:31 PM

Depends on the grenade round that you used. If you use a gas grenade, you will have a LOT less causalities. I mean a narcojet gas grenade or a nausea gas grenade would deal with a large group of people, but not get the SWAT teams rolling out.

Posted by: Mäx May 16 2011, 07:44 PM

No it really doesn't.
If they had just made it 3,6,9,12,15,18,21 and but the word DP instead of Skill there, it would be much more in line with the actual game system.
Yes you could still build characters that are better then best, but at least the table would give skill levels the same way being ably to do stuff is handelt in game.

Rigth know the table is pretty much a joke, oh skill 7 is best of the world, thats intresting my face has no social skills at all and still throws 20+ dice for all social tests good luck beating that mister skill 7 charisma 1 negotiator.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 07:56 PM

Actually, you can build a Street Sam with 750 Karma (or 400 BP) plus a ton of Karma and still adhere to the table. I do it all the time. You just adhere to the levels of the descriptors, and then build out all of your rational and relevant support skills as well. I have said this before. How many times do you see a character with ungodly high levels in a skill, and yet the support skills that logically go along with it is nonexistant. Sheets rarely, if ever, actually match background. Why? Because it is just easier to min-max the basic idea with little to no regard to the actual concept of what is actually being created.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 08:00 PM

But that is an Edge case Max, and I am sure that you know it... At my table, you would not have those 20 dice to roll, because it would not be allowed, because your sheet would likely not fit the concept that you proposed to the GM. There is such a thing as excessive Min-Maxing, and that is a prime example of it right there.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 08:04 PM

Irion, I think you just agreed with me. Except for the obviously false statement that skill 7 means you're the best, you said that 'the table is just a guideline'. This is what I said in the last post: people matching the example *tend* to have skills at that levels. They just also tend to have DPs roughly 2-3 times that, though.

It's not 'some examples'. It's not 'edge cases'. It's the fact that in almost all cases, the skill fluff doesn't match. You *have* to assume similar Attribs, which means you're already using a DP table, not a skill table. Look at the examples: Athletics 5, pro (NFL) athlete. An NFL player will definitely have Bod/Str/Agi way above 3-4 (whatever's relevant), which means that Athletics 5 doesn't equal NFL player. DP 10+ does.

Posted by: Mäx May 16 2011, 08:06 PM

That's really not Min-Maxing, i'm pretty sure that build would get the 20+ dices cheaper by actually taking atleas 4 in the social skills, but that wouldn't fit the concept of the naturally(well almost naturally) charismatic face.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 08:08 PM

He is not naturally charismatic if he has absolutely no skill... he is relying upon other external things to boost him there. Whether it be 'ware or magic or other equipment. He is not NATURALLY Charismatic at that point.

Posted by: Mäx May 16 2011, 08:10 PM

Naturally charismatic is exactly what he is, some one with high skills isn't naturally charismatic, he's a skillfull speaker, there's a big difference.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 08:10 PM

As opposed to skillfully charismatic.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 08:12 PM

It seems like you and I have differeing opinions of Naturally Charismatic... Someone with 6 Dice (7 Charisma; Elf at Maximum Charisma) is Naturally Charismatic... Someone with 20 Dice and no Skill is Augmented out the ass, and it is no longer natural. See the Difference? Come to me with the Former as a Concept, I would allow it. The latter I would burn and tell you to start over.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 08:15 PM

… as opposed to skillfully charismatic. What else would you call it? Unnaturally charismatic? It amounts to the same thing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 08:17 PM

No it doesn't... it is augmented... Call it what it is...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 08:24 PM

'Augmentedly charismatic' doesn't describe the fact that it's based on 'raw talent' instead of practiced skill. 'Naturally charismatic' does. Not that this matters, but I didn't want your error to go uncorrected.

Posted by: Mäx May 16 2011, 08:27 PM

So is a Dryad with Charisma 9 and Vomeronasal Organ(13 dice for social skills other then intimidation) and adding Kinecics 3 and Tailored Pheremones 3 to that doesn't make her much less natural and neither does Vocal Range Enhancer.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 08:44 PM

Yes it does, you are using magic and even tech, to get to that point. Admit it. You have augmented yourself, and augmented an already MAGICAL race to boot. Sheesh...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 16 2011, 08:48 PM

But not using skill. Naturally charismatic as opposed to skillfully charismatic. Just as naturally athletic is opposed to skillfully athletic, or by practice, training, etc.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 08:51 PM

It is interesting to me that you refuse to admit that augmentation is a category. Once you have augmented, you are no longer relying upon natural abilities.

No worries though...

Posted by: longbowrocks May 17 2011, 03:57 AM

So, you took every skill in the core book including awakened ones, plus 6 additional languages? That's pretty impressive, but where'd you get the BP for it?

I just want to point out that our GM likes to include us all in combat, possibly because he was a DM till recently, or possibly because my last character could only do combat and demolition through combat. I've learned the downside to an overly focused build since then.

How did you get 7-11 without piling on bonuses?

All in all, thanks for the input!

Posted by: Glyph May 17 2011, 04:48 AM

Dice pools don't really have one single point where they are effective. They vary widely in how many successes you typically need for them, and how easy it is to get a high dice pool for them. Combat skills, for instance, tend to need to be high, since there are so many potential negative modifiers for them. On the flip side, it is easy to improve them with augmentation. Social skills are a bit more odd, in that a lower dice pool (12+) can often be effective, but they are the easiest dice pools to boost into the stratosphere. For other skills, lower dice pools can still be effective. Eight dice for pistols is pretty middling, but 8 dice for infiltration is actually decent.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 17 2011, 06:49 AM

Infiltration vs. Perception is one of my favorite examples of why you need to consider each pool on a case by case basis lest you jump to conclusions. That's because those skills oppose each other but often times go about attaining advantages in different ways. For example, compare a 3 Intuition, 3 Perception guard with Vision Enhancement 3 goggles vs. a 3 Agility, 3 Infiltration burglar with a chameleon suit. Technically speaking the guard is starting out with the larger overall dice pool but the burglar actually has the advantage given that chameleon suits work by penalizing the observer rather than buffing the wearer's pools.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 01:14 PM

Nope... Only have about 2/3 of the skills in the Corebook. I have 21 or so (can't remember, do not have sheet with me) Knowledge skills. I have no Awakened skills, nor Emergent Skills. I do have about 4 natural languages. I did not count the dozen or so languages that I have access to on Lingusofts. As for BP, a good chunk of my Karma went towards those skills. When you are neither Awakened, nor Emergent, you tend to have a lot of Karma for skills.



We are also all included in combat, and even my ganger is still effective with his 9 dice or so of pistols (Stat 5, skill 2, specialty; he uses a ruger super warhawk). None of my builds are overly focused, due to how I spread the skills around. Of course, rarely do I see a DP of 20 either. My Cyberlogician has a DP 20 with Bonuses for Perception, assuming no penalties. I have a climber with a DP of 20 also (Climbing obviously). Those are really the only two characters I can think of with a DP that high.



Well, he is a Cyberlogician (Hacker for Yerameyahu's benefit ) with 0.7 Essence remaining, and he is crammed full of mostly inobvious 'ware. His Agility is High (8 ), Reaction is High (9), and Logic is High (7); Intuition, Body and Willpower are all 5. Skills range from 1-3, with a few 4's and three 5's. Almost Every skill is specialized (yep, even the Knowledge skills). I have a list of Skills still to purchase, and I really want to have all my skills at a minimum of 3, then I want to raise them all to a 4. Eventually, I may even get one of the rank 5 skills to a 6. Takes time, to be sure. He has been a lot of fun to play. Her is currently semi-retired for now. Only coming out to play when the big boys are needed.

My Pleasure.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 02:19 PM

@longbowrocks

10 dices in combat (may be another 2 for smartlink) are the amount of dices a marine would roll. And I guess marines can fight...

Of course if your GM tends to drop force 8 to 10 spirits on your head you need at least 20 dices to shoot things to even get a minimal chance to hurt such a beast.

But then dropping Force 8 spirits is kind of abusing the rules anyway....

@Whipstitch

So the guard switches to infra red and gets all his boni but gets also to ignore the chamlion suite.
Perception versus stealth is a good example for boni running away and one side beeing (if start rolling without any additional thresholds) overpowered like hell.
This is where a GM should really acount for the surroundings.
The next problem is, that a perception test only accounts for one sence. (So the GM has to determin if you see, hear or smell the other guy)
And thats not easy because the modifiers for each are quite different.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 02:24 PM

AFAIK, Perception applies to all senses at once (I think that's what you're saying?). So the GM does indeed have to translate that roll into your various bonuses and penalties, which is a pain.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 02:37 PM

@Yerameyahu
Does not work this way. Think about it. (It works if there are NO augmentations for special sences in play)
Or you just do not apply them. But than chamelion suit would not apply either.

Your are correct I guess too it was intended that way, but it does not work.

Lets just try some Sam looking for his cat:
Olifactor factory, cyber eyes (Perception +2) and cyberears (Perception +3), Intuition 3 and Perception 3 with spec. on hearing.

Lets assume the cat is not "talking".
So hearing a cat would be at least a threshold of 4.
Seeing a cat would be easier so about 3.
Smelling a cat. Hell no. Maybe 5.
(Well, maybe the cat could also make a infiltration roll against the hearing but of course not against the smell. If she is doing it against visual perception is arguable.)

Posted by: Whipstitch May 17 2011, 05:59 PM

It was just a hypothetical in which not every modification is being used. That's because my goal was to demonstrate that sometimes skills and niches are supported in ways other than simply adding a couple more dice to your pool, something which you yourself more or less just pointed out as well. Infiltration and Perception are my favorite examples not because they are always balanced but because there is an obvious measures and countermeasures dynamic involved that improves your chances in ways other than just giving you an entire brick of dice to toss around. Infiltrators use tricks like chameleon suits, cover of darkness and thermal dampening not to increase their own pool but to hopefully penalize the opposition. Meanwhile, observers use a combination of dice pool bonuses and alternate senses to counteract or outright ignore some types of penalties. So even a pretty skilled runner may be sitting at 12 dice in infiltration-- most of his tools simply doesn't increase that pool directly. Contrast that with the dice pools a Face can pack-- in a post emotitoy world a character with 12 dice in a seduction test may just be some randy clubber with a Moodwyrm.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 06:04 PM

I got it. I just wanted to point out, that this area is broken. (The Problem are the alternative sences.)

Posted by: Faraday May 17 2011, 06:34 PM

Actually, an olfactory booster works as a chemical analyzer. Smelling people with one only takes a threshold of 3. (2 if they have tailored pheremones) You'll also know that it's a cat and that it's *your cat*.

Granted, you'll only notice it's presence with 1 hit, knowing it's more than that will be more difficult.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 06:51 PM

Yes. And for that you only get the rating of the booster. So thank you for proving my point.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 08:07 PM

Irion, all relevant forms of Perception definitely work at once, unless *possibly* the player specifies. Usually, only one matters, because it's the easiest. There's nothing in the rules about declaring what kind of vision you're using, or hearing, or smell. For Observe in Detail, a GM might focus on one sense, but even that action doesn't specify by RAW.

If you're talking about Sensors (not Senses), then a Sensor test technically uses whatever sensors you want all at once (again, when relevant). Again, usually only the 'easiest' one matters; if you spot him visually, you don't care to check on smelling.

Yes, this means there are multiple thresholds. Poor GM.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 08:21 PM

@Yerameyahu
So how do you add up the modifiers?

You can't add up visiual, audio and all the other boni just together.
Or you would need to add all the thresholds together.

Just think of an example and you will see, that it can not work.


Lets take the infiltration approach.
Watcher has: Visionenhancement 3, Audio enhancement 2, Thermal vision, Low light vision
Infiltrator has: Chamelion suit, Concealment 4, Thermal damping 2
Situation: Cover, partial light, Thermal Smoke (may be from some exhaust pipes), concrete (as floor) and partial cover. Oh and lets add some background noise from heavy machinery at work to that.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 08:29 PM

As I said twice, you have to do it separately. It's a huge pain, obviously (as I also said twice already). But when you roll Perception for your players' characters and decide that they don't see the ninjas sneaking up on them, they're going to be pissed when you admit you didn't bother to check if they *heard* them.

Typically, one sense is obviously the most appropriate or effective. Typically, this is sight (and depending on Visibility). But, it's not always, and there's no reason to turn off all the other senses arbitrarily. The majority of Perception isn't even deliberate. It represents your total ability to notice things (anything).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 08:33 PM

Easy...

You roll your base (Smallest) pool, usually just the Perception Pool, with a single roll...
Add dice for visual Mods, tally additional success to base for vision Thresholds
Add dice Aural Mods, tally additional successs to base for hearing Thresholds
Same for Smell, if using Smell...
Etc...

I tend to use different collored add dice for each Sense, and then just add hits to the base pool hits when prompted...
At that point you have all the thresholds you require, at your fingertips, if they matter. Easy Peasy

Or, just tell the character to roll the relevant Sense with the easiest threshold, and allow the character's player to ask for additional rolls based upon other senses, if they would possibly apply. Again, Easy Peasy

Posted by: ggodo May 17 2011, 08:45 PM

I have tried so hard to get people to use their Edge or put points into it. they seem to forget it's there.



Well, that last one was designed for two hackers, and our tech seems to roll way below average. I include everyone in combat because everyone always seems to be there when the fight starts, and it's easier to keep track of how everyone's doing things simultaneously if it's all in combat turns.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 08:55 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, thats one roll for every sence like I said...(actally you are doing one more)

@Yerameyahu
If I get it right now, we were arguing for the same thing from different sides.
You have to make multiple rolls. One for every sence.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 08:58 PM

Ah, see I knew we agreed. I said so at the beginning!

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 09:04 PM

Thats what drove me off the road. I thought you were talking about the actual roll. So one roll applys to all sences. And I just did not see a way it would be possible.
(But as a matter of fact, thats what the book suggests multible time.

So yeah perception is quite screwed up since there are so many mods involved.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 10:12 PM

Which is why you should strive to have all Senses with the same number of dice for the perception roll. At that point, all you need is a single roll, and then you check your thresholds... all senses that hit that threshold provide useful data to the character.

Posted by: Irion May 18 2011, 12:10 AM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Yeah but thats not that easy, since there are modifiers as you move along. Damn you Sun for setting.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 18 2011, 03:06 AM

And I enjoy that a lot. Thanks