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Posted by: Machiavelli May 15 2011, 06:18 PM

E.g. is a body 7 troll slim. Can strenght 6 humans also be wiry instead of bulky?

And to add something not merely physical: Is charisma 1 always ugly?

We know how skills have to be categorized due to the core-book but there is nowhere a hint about attributes.

Posted by: Halflife May 15 2011, 06:35 PM

I generally feel that you look however you think you look unless you exceed the norms for your metatype. In general you don't look like a weakling with Str 5/6 but if you are rocking low Body maybe you are wiry instead of bodybuilder. The one difference might be body since it roughly correlates with size. Also, charisma really doesn't correlate with attractiveness imo. Attractiveness is such a subjective thing that I wouldn't allow it to be quantified by a single number that also gets to be part of your Composure tests, seems silly to me.


People with augmentations probably look pretty crazy though. Muscle replacements give you big bulging muscles that make you bulky and Hulked out , Pheromones make you preternaturally intriguing, MBW/Wired reaction boosters make you twitchy and on edge, etc.

Posted by: Dez384 May 15 2011, 06:36 PM

With attributes, there are no hard and fast rulings on what different scores look like. A high strength character could be bulked out, or they could be wiry with good muscles definition; it's the difference between lengthening muscles and building muscle mass.

Body 7 would be average size for a troll, but body doesn't necessarily correspond to physical size and weight.

Likewise, charisma is a mental stat, not necessarily prettiness, which would be physical. Though physical improvements help ones persona, just as physical deformities can hurt one's charm. A low charisma character could be ugly, or just simply not good at talking and expressing themselves.

Posted by: Glyph May 15 2011, 09:09 PM

The old ork street samurai archetype was described as having "charming good looks" and a "cultured accent" despite his Charisma of 1, so it's definitely a mental stat. A Charisma of 1 could mean you are attractive but shallow, or charming but obviously insincere, or any number of other things.

Body and Strength should also be difficult to discern. You might look compact and wiry, but if you are a gymnast, rock climber, or former dock worker, you could be damn strong. Or you could be a gym rat, with chiseled muscles that are mostly show.

Augmentations could go either way. They could be obvious, as Halflife envisions them, or they could be very subtle. A woman with a natural Strength of 1, with muscle augmentation: 4, might still look thin and petite.

Metatype will play into it, too. A big, overweight troll might look far stronger than his undeveloped Strength of 5 - because he's frikkin' huge! A dwarf might get underestimated, though, because not everyone is aware that they have such a high muscle density - they just see a short dude.

Posted by: Makki May 15 2011, 09:44 PM

Body is also Health and Immune System.

I found the weirdest thing recently. Goblins (Dwarf Infected) have a minimum Body of 3 and an average of 4-5, despite being described "New goblins rapidly purge almost all body fat and hair. They become skeletal, skin taught over bone and wiry muscle." And as we all know, the Infected are very ill...

Posted by: Mäx May 15 2011, 09:52 PM

Not really, after the virus is done messing around with their genetics, their not really sick in any way that matters to them.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin May 16 2011, 01:11 AM

Slight nitpick:
While this has been true for Wired Reflexes, Move By Wire has always been portrayed as being unnaturally smooth due to how it works.

Posted by: Hagga May 16 2011, 01:27 AM

Someone with 6 agility is incredibly surefooted and never takes a step wrong. Someone with step 12 agility manages to look graceful and relentless at the same time and the world itself seems to correspond to their wishes in regards to footing. Someone with 6 reaction is never surprised at all and takes it all in his stride, one step ahead. Someone with 12 reaction teleports, instead of moving - their arm is in one spot and then it's in another. Someone with 6 body *glows* with health and vitality, like someone's got a lamp underneath their skin.. assuming they happen to be human.

Posted by: Glyph May 16 2011, 04:23 AM

That's assuming they are making no effort to hide it. Although with plenty of augmented specimens tromping around, security forces will probably be trained to notice the little tell-tales. Back in feudal Japan, one of the ways they detected ninjas was by having a small child send a spinning top in the suspected ninja's path. If it was a ninja, they would make a graceful movement to avoid it that only a trained ninja would do.

I would also say - if someone has move-by-wire: 3, then it is probably a very, very bad idea to have a surprise birthday party for them.

Posted by: Faraday May 16 2011, 05:12 AM

This should be a shadow run.

Posted by: Hagga May 16 2011, 12:52 PM

Depending on how long they've lived with it for. Someone who just got one in the last five years might react stereotypically. Someone who's had them for 15 (and somehow not DIED) might smile politely. For those who have 'older' characters.

Posted by: Loch May 16 2011, 01:28 PM

For that matter, what does Reaction look like period? It's a physical stat, but I can't imagine looking at a guy and saying "Oh, well he just looks faster on the draw than everyone else here"

Posted by: Makki May 16 2011, 01:47 PM

you can't see Agility either. But You can probably see them in action Just throw something at him and wait for him to catch it, or not...

Posted by: Loch May 16 2011, 02:11 PM

You could probably get a good idea of someone's Agility by watching them jog for a bit, or run to catch a train, but point taken.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 03:11 PM

There is a great scene in the Movie Ronin that illustrates that very well.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 16 2011, 03:36 PM

Damn, you were quicker. When I get to play SR again, I just have to ambush someone with a cup of tea (or was it coffee) and a pen.

I think you should give the players some leeway with their description. High strength does not need to look like a bodybuilder. I doubt though that someone with Physical attributes on or near the maximum would look like Chris Farley/John Candy.

Posted by: Makki May 16 2011, 03:45 PM

i was of course thinking of this scene, when writing my post

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 04:15 PM

Indeed... It was the scene that immediately popped to mind...

Posted by: Apathy Jun 6 2011, 09:31 PM

Yeah, thread necromancy! Figure it's better than re-making the same threads over and over though.

Would like someone to tell me if the attached pic is more-or-less accurate, or if you think they need adjusting. [img]http://s874.photobucket.com/albums/ab305/JamesChamlee/Shadowrun/?action=view&current=RaceandStatsvsSize.jpg[/img] Are the trolls too small, or the elves too thick?


The most obvious/visible component in the Bod score is size. Large critters with heavy bone structures and lots of muscle and fat covering their vital organs are more capable of absorbing physical damage, all other factors being equal. Unfortunately this links strength and body together - I can't really picture what a Strength 1 Body 6 character or a Strength 6 Body 1 character would look like or how they'd work. I think this works out for most of the 'normal' ratings though. The figures are supposed to represent general body size for each 'natural' Bod score.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 7 2011, 03:18 AM

The troll is way too short, in the comparison pick he's barely a head staller then the elf.
RC page 48 has a table for the racial average heigh and weight, an elf is 1,9m and a troll is 2,5m
Other think is that an ork is also 1,9m tall on average, so your orks are way too short.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 7 2011, 03:35 AM

You know that stereotypical blond cheerleader type that is super beautiful, but is a total b**ch and if she wasn't so good looking no one would want to be anywhere near her? That's an example of someone who is beautiful but has a 1 charisma.

Similarly you can have people who are plain looking or even 'ugly' but who you just love to spend time with because they're great talkers, listeners, etc. That is an example of someone who isn't beautiful but has a high charisma.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 7 2011, 03:53 AM

Charisma is force of personality as well as good looks.

Pup the Dog Shaman probably isn't that good looking (The bullet scar in the middle of the forehead kind of ruins things), but he's got an aura around him. Usually, it says, "Don't slot with me.".

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jun 7 2011, 05:15 AM

This was the VERY first thing that popped into my head - great minds think alike

I used to work for a company that made "flex-pickers" - robots that picked small things up off of conveyor belts. The things would sit motionless, then blur into motion, then return to a standstill instantly. It was very creepy to watch, almost insect-like in how quickly it would move and then not-move. I always imagined that's how someone with WR / MBW might look.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 7 2011, 05:24 AM

Coffee.

"Tell me about an ambush! I AMBUSHED YOU WITH A CUP OF COFFEE!"

Oh, and I hurt someone's feelings once.

I worked in robotics unprofessionally for awhile (Don't ask), and can attest to this. MBW, however, has micro-seizures that constantly happen, so that's how I imagine Wired Reflexes working.

Also, being "Reflex Motion", it can also mean you just shoved your Cougar Fineblade into your Chummer five times before he hit the ground just because he came up behind you and patted you on the shoulder before saying, "Eh Mon! How goes me bruddah?". Hatchetman talking about how he had to keep his back to walls and other such things to prevent mistakes like that were very... Interesting. And accurate, most likely.

I don't make sudden movements around combat vets, for instance. Not after I moved a bit too silently around one for his own liking.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jun 7 2011, 05:28 AM

That wasn't the scene, was it? It was the scene where Sam drops the coffee cup to test Gregor's reflexes...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 7 2011, 05:29 AM

There was two scenes with a cup of coffee. My quote was from the second.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jun 7 2011, 05:54 AM

Right, but the scene with the "coffee ambush" wasn't trying to test anyone's reflexes, was it? It was to test Spence's combat exp, or lack thereof. Anyway, sorry for being pedantic, arguing about a movie scene on a RPG message board and all that

Posted by: CanRay Jun 7 2011, 06:29 AM

You quoted the scene that showed proof of the ability, I quoted the one that proved the lack thereof. IIRC, he tested everyone in one way or another for abilities or professionalism.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jun 7 2011, 06:40 AM

Hmmm, I hadn't seen it from that angle, that he "tests" every one of his partners in crime...have to rewatch the movie now with this new angle in my mind

Posted by: CanRay Jun 7 2011, 06:46 AM

It's what I'd do. And makes some of his questions and answers, with his watching the reactions to both, make a lot more sense. Some are multiple tests, such as the question about the boathouse, which tells him who is the person that does the most thinking and pondering, as well as who is most likely to actually have the guts or willpower to ask the question of a unarmed man that just ambushed a pistol packing amateur with a cup of coffee.

It's also how the character is played out, if you watch the scene at the hotel when he tests the reactions to the guards protecting the package and bagman. And is able to get photo evidence for planning.

Very subtle, but very, very effective.

Of course, what the hell do I know about anything?

Posted by: Eimi Jun 7 2011, 02:26 PM

A lot of younger runners think the most important skill they can have is with firearms. Or at unarmed combat. With a katana. The ability to dodge some rent a cop's shots. To bamboozle an actual cop.

The older ones, who actually lived long enough to know a thing or two? They all know that it's Perception. Because if you never see certain things coming, all of the above won't do you a lick of good.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jun 7 2011, 03:18 PM

High Logic, I imagine, we see anytime we see Steven Hawking or any other of the scientific geniuses. Well as much as you can ''see'' it.

High Willpower sticks out in my mind with a scene in the not great but kind of fun more recent Punisher movie. The scene where the one guy is torturing the kid with the piercings, but he doesn't give up *any* info, even as they're ripped out of his face with a pair of pliers. That, to me, speaks of high-ass willpower.

High Strength indeed can be tough. I mean I have an old friend who isn't the biggest guy in the world-not very tall and he doesn't look big, but he's stronger than an ox on steroids.

Edit: Of course, I missed the 'physical' thing in the actual thread title and I give two mental examples. Whoops.

Re: Reaction-I always sort of felt that as the half-mental, half-physical attribute.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 7 2011, 03:28 PM

I've always viewed it as a purely physical attribute, the mental half is intuition.

Basically reflexes is how fast your body itself can react, your twitch reflexes. Intuition is how quickly your mind can react, especially to 'larger' things. Like intuition doesn't cover 'I need to get out of the way of gunfire' because that is thought far far faster than the body can react, so your actual ability to react is based on reflexes (and hence its use in dodging bullets) while intuition would deal with 'I want to get over there because it gives me a better position to shoot from' or 'I want to shoot her first because she is more dangerous' (and hence its use in initiative).

Think of it as want vs need. You want to kill the more dangerous person first, you want a better tactical position, but you need to get out of the way of that semi coming your way.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 7 2011, 04:36 PM

In the Squik-Tastic scene in Kane and Lynch 2: Dog Days, when they're stripped naked and have been attacked with box cutters to try and torture information out of them... That shows some high-hooped Willpower and Charisma (Composure Tests). Not only don't they talk, but they go on a roaring rampage of revenge after getting free. While naked. Thank goodness for censor bars!

My Stepfather was a mover, and while stout, did not have the bulging muscles one would associate with strength. His partner in his job was a tall, scrawny guy. Both were able to out lift and out work a chiseled power lifter (High Strength and Body in their cases), but that's as much skill as it is training. Never doubt experience. I miss him. (*Throws a shot of aged single malt scotch into a fire*)

However, there was one really big guy I knew that used the steel rails while working on the railroad lines as cabers for fun while bored on the job site with another fellow. Just looking at him, however, you knew he was strong. Miss him, as well. Had a damn good wake for him at a strip club, however.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 7 2011, 04:44 PM

Canadians have the best parties

Posted by: Fyndhal Jun 7 2011, 05:40 PM

[citation needed]

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 7 2011, 05:44 PM

That sounds more or less like western methods of witch detection. AKA totally ineffective.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 8 2011, 02:16 AM

It was a wake. The strippers were part of it.

Not exactly a party.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 02:19 AM

I think that only makes it more impressive. If a wake involves strippers, what does an actual party entail?

Posted by: CanRay Jun 8 2011, 02:23 AM

Wouldn't know. Never get invited to any.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 8 2011, 04:58 AM

I've always thought of a wake as a "farewell" party of sorts.

Edit: at least the good old fashioned Irish kind of wake. Other cultures wakes are more somber and involve less drinking.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 05:33 AM

Does an Irish anything not involve drinking?

*runs and hides*

Posted by: CanRay Jun 8 2011, 08:04 AM

There are sober Irishmen. They're called "Dry Alcoholics".

Posted by: Tyro Jun 8 2011, 10:50 PM

Knowing how to use your body properly has a lot to do with apparent strength. So does physiology. When I'm in shape I don't look all that different from when I'm out of shape (my muscles tone much more than they bulk), and I'm always stronger than I look regardless of what shape I'm in because I know how to use my body effectively. I also have very good pain and damage resistance (Body and Willpower) and rarely get sick (Body), even though I'm a beanpole.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 10:52 PM

Tyro is also an Ork with the Human Looking quality

Posted by: Tyro Jun 8 2011, 10:52 PM

Why would you say that? Nothing wrong with Orks, but in the Shadowrun universe I'd probably still be human.

I'm 6'2" and weigh between the mid-150's and mid-160's depending on how in shape I am.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 10:57 PM

Never said there was anything wrong with it. Orks are all big and strong and BP efficent after all

No idea what I'd be. Human, elf, ork... don't think I'd be a troll or dwarf, but who knows, it isn't like what you're like really dictates your metatype.

Posted by: Tyro Jun 9 2011, 02:43 AM

What I'd like to be is human, though. It just fits me best.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 9 2011, 02:42 PM

I had made the elf too tall, and troll and dwarf too short. Corrected to the heights listed in RC.https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1iNIXAgIlA1ODZkYTE1NWMtYjc5My00Njc1LTkyYTItYzYxN2NmYWFiYzJk&hl=en_US&authkey=CKWGkJMP

Posted by: Machiavelli Jun 9 2011, 03:02 PM

Nice sheat. Now we can start to discuss why trolls are so weak and "fragile" in comparison to orks even when they are so much bigger.^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 9 2011, 03:17 PM

That's Easy... They Aren't...
You know, the Law of Diminishing Returns and all that...

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 9 2011, 03:23 PM

I'm coming late, and for all I know the topic has fragmented seven times and is no longer about the OP, but my answers:

1) They look like what the player wants them to look like, within reason.

2) No, Charisma 1 could be someone who is gorgeous but can't open their mouth without insulting your ethnicity. Or drop-dead ugly but really a nice guy.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 9 2011, 03:55 PM

Now the comparison shot makes much more sense, good job.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jun 9 2011, 10:57 PM

That's a pretty good chart; However, I do think the troll looks a bit big.

The average troll is 2.5 meters, which is .6-slightly more than half-of a meter taller than the average ork or elf. Looking at the average troll(I think the 'average' is the fourth one in every line? he's *well* over eight feet tall-nearly 9 feet, where 2.5 meters is actually 8'2'', which *should* mean the troll in question's head should just be scraping over the 8 foot line, rather than over the nine-foot line.

That I remember the average troll is 2.5m, but I might have been wrong on that as well.

Posted by: EuroShadow Jun 13 2011, 10:13 AM

I say that only attribute that is distantly correlated with appearance would be Body. Remebering that high body means tough, resistant to pain, diseases and toxins, so it should not look sickly. However, it definitely may be not bulky. Just looking resistant.

I would say that Charisma has no relation with appearance whatsoever, I have met some beautiful people, who are non-leaders, dull and easy to ignore, while some of people who can inspire and move/influence others does not look good. Hitler wasn't beautiful, right

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 13 2011, 02:04 PM

I agree that high BOD people should not look sickly but how do you resistant and not just healthy?

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 03:38 PM

The Toughness Quality.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 13 2011, 04:06 PM

I thought the average heights were:
Human - 5'7"
Dwarf - 3'11"
Elf - 6'3"
Ork - 6'3"
Troll - 9'2"

If I'm incorrect please confirm so that I can adjust the chart appropriately.

I treat the average stat as 2.5. The average human office worker is Body 2, and the average human construction worker is Body 3. Body 4 is supposed to represent someone of collegiate-level or semi-pro-level athlete, and Body 5 is a pro athlete Body 6 is 'world class', and Body 7 is the maximum a human can possibly attain without 'ware or magic (max body + exceptional attribute quality).

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 13 2011, 05:12 PM

The books says:
Dwarf: 1,2m=3'11''
Elf: 1,9m=6'3''
Humans: 1,75 m=5'9''
Ork: 1,9m=6'3''
Troll: 2,5m=8'2'
Conversion may be wrong though.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 13 2011, 05:31 PM

Definately a change from SR3, but I like the new numbers better. Attachment modified so that troll between 6 and 7 body is 8'2" tall.https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1iNIXAgIlA1ZDhhY2IyYTMtMjZkYS00ZGZlLWIzZWQtNmI3MmQ5MTBlMDMz&hl=en_US

Posted by: Vuron Jun 13 2011, 05:37 PM

Trolls were always extremely tall while being cadaverously thin (something not typically indicated in the art). 4e went to weight numbers that were closer to what someone that height and build would actually weigh.

Personally I still modify the heights and weights of the trolls downward because I'm not a big fan of "XBOX HUGE" trolls (or space marines ). I also tend to actually supplement the height and weight of dwarves some because I hate the stunty effect.