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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Getting back my Shadowrun 1st Edition
Posted by: IKerensky May 16 2011, 08:03 AM
Hi,
a friend recently handle me back my shadowrun 1st edition book I sold him 15 years ago. I started re-reading it and was amazed at how good it is :
1- Rules are short and understandable. I LOVE the initiative rules.
2- Book is nicely illustrated.
3- Rules are easy to understand and logical.
4- The Matrix is a matrix.
5- There is a lot of background and fluff right in the core book.
Of course the technological level sound dumbs comparing to today or SR4A, there is no bioware, no drones and cyberware is costly and very simple.
In fact I am so happy with it I think I will just use it and play all the 1st edition material I have, forgetting about the overcomplicated and not making real sense SR4 mumbo-jumbo.
Target Number are so damn more logical and work far better, even when 6=7.
I think it will be easier to re-start from 1st edition and add every sourcebook and scenario one after the other than try to understand SR4A and the massive amount of rules and gear it incorporate (Unwired, Augmentation and Street Magic I am pointing at you!).
Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 16 2011, 10:28 AM
Have fun, enjoy your smugness, also why post here when you can simply call your friends on your elegant rotary dial telephone. 
Posted by: IKerensky May 16 2011, 10:53 AM
Because I am happy 
And I loove to share the joy on a related forum 
Also for thoses that doesnt know about first edition and could be interested in using it.
Posted by: Fortinbras May 16 2011, 12:39 PM
Just remember, Rule #1: The Decker Always Dies!
Posted by: nezumi May 16 2011, 01:30 PM
SR1 really is a blast. There are some mechanics hiccups and minor overcomplications (such as variable staging and imbalanced character types) but it really is a hoot and a beautiful game book. Do enjoy it.
Posted by: DireRadiant May 16 2011, 01:57 PM
This is an inflammatory comment. Please refer to the http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20411&pid=629616&st=0&#entry629616.
SR1 is a blast. I remember the cool DMZ table top diorama they used to demo the game.
Posted by: deek May 16 2011, 03:26 PM
Many people play a newer edition, not because its better, but because that is what is being actively supported and they feel if they play something older they will be missing out. SR is a bit different than other RPGs, because there is a static timeline (for the most part) that goes forward with the new mechanics that are normally introduced with a new version. I'm just as guilty as anyone else, but I wonder why, after the shininess of a new game wears off, if it isn't as much fun as the prior version, then why not go back?
It doesn't have to be a competition on which version is best. Funny thing is, I bet if 1st Edition was republished (talking strictly on the core mechanics), there could be a lot of newbies that would just hop on the new version bandwagon and play it, not realizing that the mechanics were 20 years old. And I'd bet they'd still have a lot of fun playing SR.
I know the ONLY reason I got SR4 was because when my gaming group was looking for a new game to play, a few mentioned SR and I did an online search and found SR4 was just coming out. If that wasn't the case, I probably would have just picked up my old 1e/2e books to start play. Now, I may have gotten a player or two mention that there was a newer edition, but if I (as the GM) wanted to play 1e/2e, that's what we would have played.
The only real downside would have been when a question came up, I wouldn't be able to get an answer as quickly as I can for an actively supported game. And then I'd have to...uh...well, figure something out (i.e. houserule). Since I have to do that with every game I play (new or old) anyways, its not really a big deal, when you think about it.
Posted by: Fortinbras May 16 2011, 04:36 PM
For my group the, mechanics are secondary.
One of my players pitched using the 3rd or 2nd edition mechanics, but the majority of folks were turned off by the target number concept. I think they got burned out by 7th Sea. A good number of my players had only ever played White Wolf, so the hits mechanic was more familiar. Having the system supported and 4th edition books more widely available was also a factor, as well as the pretty, glossy art. For me, the reason I voted to play 4th edition was the Matrix rules. Deckers always had a habit of bringing my old games to a screeching halt. We tried multiple ways to work around it, but ultimately just made decking runs an NPC thing and that NPC always died.
Which edition we played came down to a vote, and I always yield to what my group thinks is more fun.
That being said, a lot of my players don't know most of the rules. After about 23 games they now know how many dice to roll to shoot things and how many to take away when injured. I still need to remind them of things like range penalties, vision penalties and what not. For them, the mechanics are just a thing to roll in combat and not to worry about when trying to solve a mystery or plan an extraction.
Shadowrun is about world building and setting. Few of my players give two hoots about mechanics, so I, as the GM, can't get too involved with it either. I streamline what I can, make rulings instead of rules when I can't and do all the math ahead of time.
I loved playing 1st edition Shadowrun. I'd love to play it again. But I also love 4th Edition. I love being in an ever growing and changing world in a shared community with a rich and involved history. I'll leave the discussion as to which is a better mechanic to those with greater math skills than my own.
Oh, and I still have and use a rotary phone. It's awesome.
Posted by: sabs May 16 2011, 04:44 PM
What was really nice about 1st edition, was the Quality of the writing. Some of it was shit.. the whole NAN thing has been hammered to death on how stupid it was. But, a lot of the writing was just awesome. Many of the supplements are just fun to read.
Posted by: IKerensky May 16 2011, 08:35 PM
Actually I found the NAN to make much more sense in the 1st edition because things pre-awakening are better explained and in more details (just talking about the main core book here).
That the thing that amazed me the more, re-reading 1st edition after having played and read 4th edition and I am actually learning things. Lone Eagle incident got nearly a full page treatment in the 1st edition, not a mere side-note.
It is something logical as more time have passed since then and there is more history to be told, but the way I feeled like SR4A was fast-forwarding the background, chronology and world make it more blurry than immersive.
Anyway my post was more about the joy to getting back the very same book I hold 15 years ago in my hand and feeling still excited about playing it
Posted by: Synner667 May 16 2011, 09:14 PM
I recently bought a copy of the SR v1 rules off ebay, to replace the one I gave away 15 years ago, and I love the game much more than I love SR v4.
There's definitely something in the writing, the art, the rawness, the feel of the game that makes it exciting 20 years later.
Posted by: Fringe May 16 2011, 09:55 PM
Catalyst has taken to republishing a lot of the older stuff in PDF form. If you're interested, SR1 is available (e.g., on http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=78877). At $8, I'm tempted just for nostalgia.
Posted by: Bigity May 16 2011, 09:58 PM
Any rulebook with a rocker archetype is worth owning.
Also, armor points equaling auto successes on damage resistance tests is just awesome!
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 16 2011, 10:13 PM
This is one of the things that I DID NOT like about 1st Edition. The Reduction of Damage Code from Armor in 2nd/3rd Edition was also grating. But other than that (and variable staging, hated that too), it was a pretty solid piece of work.
But Rockers are indeed cool...
Posted by: Blade May 17 2011, 08:07 AM
The problem is that, from my experience, (in 2nd/3rd ed at least) it led to "if you don't shoot APDS or burst fire, I won't even bother rolling" if you didn't use cumbersome armor degradation rules.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 01:22 PM
Indeed... My Troll Adpet rarely had to soak damage from firearms at targets greater than 3, and usually at target 2. He feared nothing that carried an assault rifle or weaker, and tended to laugh at even Sniper Rifles. That same build in SR4 caused him to rethink that attitude very, very quickly. Armor in SR4 is no longer a guarantee to eliminating damage.
Posted by: Bigity May 17 2011, 01:56 PM
Read my statement tongue-in-cheek fellas
I did like the damage staging though, it was pretty unique and allowed some weapons to be flat out more deadly, as they should be.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 02:02 PM
I did like the damage staging though, it was pretty unique and allowed some weapons to be flat out more deadly, as they should be.
Understood...
However, Damage staging in 1st Edition was overly complex in my opinion.
Posted by: capt.pantsless May 17 2011, 06:14 PM
What I always found interested was how LITTLE has changed since 1st ed.
Trolls are still trolls, human attributes still go from 1-6, you still shoot the mage first, etc. A lot of details have changed, but the overall feel of the game when you're sitting around the gaming table is largely the same exact thing. The original authors came-up with a very, very good game.
Posted by: KCKitsune May 17 2011, 06:54 PM
Except for NAN and all the stereotypes that were mashed together.
I do like the rules for cyberware and the fluff behind the augmentation... especially in 4th edition.
Posted by: nezumi May 18 2011, 01:25 PM
Despite how much we complain (and yes, I enjoy complaining too!) everyone who has worked on Shadowrun have been fans of the game. Even SR4, which is the most divergent iteration, you can see the changes were made to specifically fix perceived problems while keeping the game running, not to invent a new game. I don't know how common that is in the gaming world, but I feel awfully lucky for it. Plus, now we have an edition for just about any taste in gaming (all we're missing is a rules lite/diceless version).
Posted by: hermit May 18 2011, 05:57 PM
Not the bulk of the current writers. I have great trouble believing that, considering the ... quality of recent releases. Well, exempting Bull and the Missions guy.m SRM04-00 is a blast, the others look good too. But War? Attitude? Please.
Well, attempted to fix. SR4 has it's highs, but the Matrix rules are just sad. The old system was ... fast, simple, got the job done. The SR4 system tries to be the Internet, the GitS AR overlay stuff, and the old SR Matrix. It can only fail. Anyone who disagrees ought to read Virtual realities. THAT'S what a sourcebook ought to read like. That's something you read not to look up an obscure rule but because it is fun to read.
That's what I miss most about SR4. The books aren't enjoyable to read anymore. Sure, you can read them and then write scathing, fuming, rage filled reviews, like Frank Trollman does. But that's not very enjoyable for me. The level of writing of 1st and 2nd Edition is forever lost, though, I'm afraid.
Posted by: DireRadiant May 18 2011, 06:16 PM
As always in any discussions about the multiple versions of SR, keep the discussion civil and positive.
If you come into this thread with only negative inflammatory posts there will be additional Warnings issued.
Posted by: suoq May 18 2011, 06:53 PM
To me, the big difference was in the worlds in which SR1 and SR4 were written.
Take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJGo2rvfSuA and add basic fantasy elements: magic, orcs, trolls. You have the SR1 Universe as it was, complete with a Jim Steinman soundtrack. Science fiction and fantasy as seen by a world discovering the TRS-80 and Apple IIe.
Now Androids and iPhones are commonplace. We have some pretty good replacement arms ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6R5bm6qx2E ). One of the problems with SR4 is that we've caught up with and passed half the technology in the books. We keep trying to drag the Shadowrun world down a past we lived with technology we have, trying to reconcile Androids and iPhones with a world imagined from an era when cell phones weighed 2 pounds and cost $3,995.
To me, SR1 feels like steampunk in a way. Ages ago, Jules Verne wrote Science Fiction that we've gone so far past that it's become a fantasy never-was world. Steampunk is a romantic way to remember a future that never was, to jump into that world that was once the future and now has become an imaginary past. I like SR1, because it's future that never was.
"You're about to enter a world unlike a world you've ever seen before where rock n'roll is king, the only law is a loaded gun. Where the beautiful, the brutal and the brave all meet." .., Running the shadows, the only thing better than KVSR Rocks!.
Posted by: nezumi May 18 2011, 07:46 PM
Amen to that. We need some more quality, inspired fiction writers.
Posted by: CanRay May 18 2011, 07:49 PM
Ah, the days when Rock 'n' Roll would save your soul... And the world.
Posted by: deek May 18 2011, 07:54 PM
Take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJGo2rvfSuA and add basic fantasy elements: magic, orcs, trolls. You have the SR1 Universe as it was, complete with a Jim Steinman soundtrack. Science fiction and fantasy as seen by a world discovering the TRS-80 and Apple IIe.
Now Androids and iPhones are commonplace. We have some pretty good replacement arms ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6R5bm6qx2E ). One of the problems with SR4 is that we've caught up with and passed half the technology in the books. We keep trying to drag the Shadowrun world down a past we lived with technology we have, trying to reconcile Androids and iPhones with a world imagined from an era when cell phones weighed 2 pounds and cost $3,995.
To me, SR1 feels like steampunk in a way. Ages ago, Jules Verne wrote Science Fiction that we've gone so far past that it's become a fantasy never-was world. Steampunk is a romantic way to remember a future that never was, to jump into that world that was once the future and now has become an imaginary past. I like SR1, because it's future that never was.
"You're about to enter a world unlike a world you've ever seen before where rock n'roll is king, the only law is a loaded gun. Where the beautiful, the brutal and the brave all meet." .., Running the shadows, the only thing better than KVSR Rocks!.
And maybe that is where SR4 kind of took a step back. Instead of writers imagining a new future based on current day technology and trends, much of the writing filled in gaps to align SR4 with current technology and other events, generally speaking. So we have a matrix and commlinks that are not really far future, they are reality in 5-10 years and heavily based on current trends.
I agree though, that playing in an SR1 world is kind of steampunk. Playing in SR4 feels more like modern fantasy (meaning, races, monsters and magic) with all the matrix and 'wares making up the modern (or very close to it) component.
Posted by: sabs May 18 2011, 08:03 PM
It would be nice to get a re-imagining. A real update on the tech, the matrix.
A matrix that actually looks far future, and not next 20 years. Also one that doesnt' badly copy the internet and screw it up royally in 7 different ways.
Posted by: Synner667 May 18 2011, 08:22 PM
A matrix that actually looks far future, and not next 20 years. Also one that doesnt' badly copy the internet and screw it up royally in 7 different ways.
There's a million SciFi games that do this, because that's basically the premise of the future.
Shadowrun only works as a very limited, near future SciFi/Urban Fantasy game.
As soon as you extend it into a meaningful future, it falls apart faster than it has done in the last 20 years of gametime.
A far future where tech and magic co-exist ??
The nearest you have to that at the moment might be WH40K, Septimus, Equinox...
...Though there's nothing wrong with kitbashing your own [I dimly remember some people on here talking about their SR campaign being set hundreds of years in the future] or using a generic rules system to put one together.
Posted by: CanRay May 18 2011, 08:24 PM
At least Shadowrun has some excuse for technology falling apart. Having the entire cell phone and wireless communications network, including satellites, be completely wrecked by the Crash 1.0 would set people back quite a bit.
Posted by: hermit May 18 2011, 08:28 PM
That's the canonic explanation Findley introduced way back.
Posted by: Tiralee May 19 2011, 04:35 AM
-A moment of silence.
Tir.
Posted by: deek May 19 2011, 03:48 PM
Which really isn't much of a stretch. We are only one immense solar flare away from frying all out satellites and electronics.
I guess my complaint is more just the feel. I remember playing SR1 and thinking how cool the matrix was, cyberware and the background technology. Playing SR4, 'ware simply got updated, the matrix was already mainstream (due to hollywood) and the background tech, well, actually had some stuff that was worse, and commlinks barely rival modern smartphones. Some of the tech is just way to close to reality which adds far more confusion than necessary...
SR of any edition is still the best mix of magic, matrix and tech, but when reality catches up (in many regards) to the game, the game loses its edge and feel.
Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 08:47 PM
Hollywood is still backwards. It wasn't until Live Free Or Die Hard/Die Hard 4.0 that Filmmakers found out that UBS Memory Sticks existed, and stopped allowing people to download "The Internet" on a floppy Disc or CD. 
BTW: Watching an episode of "Sons of Guns", where a film crew wanted a blank adapted Ingram MAC-10 or MAC-11 (Can't remember which), one of the guys from the gun shop got to be an extra on the film. I, a civilian with only a passing knowledge of practical firearms, could tell that he was the only one in the shot that even handled his weapon properly. (One guy would have burned/pinched his hand badly if he had to shoot quickly! Not to mention mess up with the operation of the SMG he was handling.). Come on, Hollywood, veterans aren't that hard to find, and I'm sure they'd love to get in the movies!
Tir.
*Hangs my head down for a moment, then pouts a 40 on the curb*
Posted by: Fortinbras May 19 2011, 09:20 PM
We're how many years away from the advent of CPR and Hollywood still can't tell the talent to hold their arms straight?
These are people who dedicated years of their lives to knowing who Antonin Artaud is, they can follow direction if you give it to them!
Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 09:57 PM
Hell, how long have vehicles and gasoline/petrol been around, and cars still blow up if you hit the gas cap with a lead .22.
Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 09:58 PM
Or present a computer with a somewhat believable user interface. Really, just watch CSI. The User interfaces there are a nightmare, not to mention hideously taxing on hardware. And don't even begin with the constant beeping at every key entered, or people using programs entirely with hammering a keyboard like they're epilleptic.
Arguably, most Actors know how to use a computer, given how many of them twitter. Or at least have knowledgable assistants who know. They can do it. I'm certain most playwrights do not type on a typewriter anymore either, but on a computer, so they ought to know.
The hell, Hollywood. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.
Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 10:00 PM
Ask my family and friends what happens to me when forced to watch "Hacker" movies. It isn't pretty.
Live Free Or Die Hard/Die Hard 4.0 was OK, as that was pretty much just an escape from reality anyhow. Even if it did finally introduce USB Memory Sticks.
Now, if you excuse me, I'm all out of bullets and need to take out a helicopter.
Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 10:08 PM
Die Hard 4.0 was okay. It had a lot of wacko hacker things but hey, action movie. It's the Die Hard universe where everything may explode at any moment. The computer sequences there actually are among the best in Hollywood movies.
And that scene is just smashin fun. I probably squeed in the cinema when I saw it. Popcorn hardly tasted so good as then.
Posted by: Critias May 20 2011, 02:27 AM
Well, that's because if they hold their arms straight, they'll break the ribs of the poor schmuck actor/extra they're performing CPR on.
Posted by: binarywraith May 20 2011, 05:03 AM
Had to give this post some love. I recently re-located my hardback SR1 and SR2 copies, and lost a day or so just re-reading all the fluff in the base books. There really isn't any other game out there that can compare to the love that the writers poured into those books.
Posted by: CanRay May 20 2011, 05:10 AM
I know finding a hardcover and softcover at affordable prices a few years ago was a happy time for me. Got SR4 BBB and Street Magic, which was a new release at the same time.
*Sighs* STILL waiting on my first game.
Posted by: pdboddy May 20 2011, 05:56 AM
Best gun in the 1st edition was the saturday night special. 
Posted by: nezumi May 20 2011, 10:22 AM
I live in DeeCee. It was not okay.
(It was, however, hilarious.)
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